“Can any good come out of Nazareth?”…or Brownsville or Toronto or 312 Azusa Street?
Posted on March 7th, 2008 by David Mackin into the Uncategorized, David Mackin Writes: category
‘Scrupe said: “I don't get it…God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands…And if we reduced that mindset to its most direct form, i.e., “I’m going to Brownsville Assembly to get God’s anointing from Billy Burke”, does it begin to sound just a wee bit insane (if not downright un-Biblical)?”
‘Scrupe, I agree that Christians can too easily become obsessed with "anointed" people, places, churches and movements. I also agree that "God does not dwell in temples made with hands” (Acts 7:48-49). Nevertheless…
I am not willing to go so far as to say that since God does not live in material temples, that all meetings in buildings will never experience his power or presence. In 1906, in Los Angeles, California, there was the Azusa Street Revival. Thousands visited this little run-down building on Azusa St. to see what God was doing. I don't consider their interest or even curiosity wrong or automatically unnecessary. Tens of thousands have visited Toronto for the same reason. I was blessed to have gone twice myself and both times had a wonderful experience in input.
After coming home, however, I felt it was my responsibility to take the blessing that I had received and share it freely with others (cf. Genesis 12:2). I knew that I should not horde the blessings by telling others that the only place that they could experience God was in Eastern Canada; neither did I dare to twist true visitation into emotional manipulation.
Your post raises a legitimate question: Why does God seem to visit certain places at certain times and use certain individuals? I don’t know. God is sovereign and he does whatever he wants to do whenever and wherever and through whomever he wants. “God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases” (Psalm 115:3).
Some people in Jesus’ day did not believe that any good thing could come out of the small town of Nazareth (John 1:46), but that did not stop God from having Jesus raised there and begin his ministry in the town (Luke 4:16; Matthew 21:11).
Naaman, the leprous commander of the Syrian army, became furious when Elisha’s messenger told him that he would be healed only if he dipped seven times in the Jordan river (2 Kings 5:10-11). The Syrian commander replied with pride and indignance: “Are not the Abanah and the Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” (I Kings 5:12). He walked away angry and unhealed (cf. Luke 4:24-27).
Did Jesus not appear uniquely at one point in history? Did he not travel around specific areas like Galilee calling disciples and healing the sick? Was there not a special day of Pentecost in a particular upper room where 120 disciples were filled with the Spirit of God (Acts 2)? Yes, these were all time- and place-specific events.
Accordingly, if I had been living in those days, I would have made every effort to get to the mount or the plain or the desert or the city or the lakeside or Solomon’s porch in the Temple to be wherever Jesus was. I would not have cared where Jesus was teaching or doing the works of God; I would have wanted to have experienced or at least to have observed for myself his multiplying of the loaves, his raising of the dead, his anointed teaching, etc. I would have rented a donkey, if necessary, to get to the upper room before Pentecost so that I could have been a part of that spiritual outpouring. By attempting to get to the upper room with the other disciples before Pentecost, I would not necessarily be saying that I felt that God dwelt exclusively in that upper room. I would simply be saying that I would like to experience the divine visitation that Jesus promised was soon to come (Luke 24:49).
Such efforts, in my view, do not automatically indicate carnality, “unbiblicalness,” or a lack of faith for God to do the same mighty deeds in one's own home or place. They can simply indicate a sincere spiritual hunger to personally experience a sovereign move of the Spirit wherever it is occurring.
Jesus told his generation that many of them missed their time of divine visitation because they rejected him when he walked among them (Luke 19:44). I think that Christians can also miss out on spiritual blessings - throughout church history - if they hold too strict of a definition of who, what, where, when, why and how God moves or “should” move. Jesus’ words to Nicodemus come to mind: “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit (John 3:8).”
Theologically speaking, God brought revival in New England through Jonathan Edwards who was a Calvinist. He also brought great revival in England through John Wesley, who was an Armenian. God chose to use two men even though they held opposite theologies to bring revival and spiritual awakening to people. When the famous evangelist George Whitfield preached to thousands seated in open fields, it was no more or less spiritual or biblical a place or event than when John Wesley, founder of Methodism, sat in a chair or a pew in a society meeting on Aldersgate Street in 1738 and exclaimed, “I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation…”
God was in both places because the true message of Jesus Christ was being preached – not because one was outside and the other was in a material building. We know that God does not restrict himself anymore to living in “temples made with hands,” but history, experience as well as the Bible show us clearly that God certainly chooses often to visit them - for the sake of those “temples made without hands” that are hungering after him on the chairs or pews inside (Luke 24:53).
* * *
Suggested reading: Accounts of a Campus Revival: Wheaton College 1995, ed., T. Beougher and L. Dorsett; I Saw the Smithton Outpouring by Ron McGatlin; In the Latter Days by Vincent Synan; The Holiness-Pentecostal Movement in the United States by Vincent Synan; The Pilgrim Church by E. H. Broadbent; www.azusastreet.org
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March 7th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Revivals are an interesting subject. Thanks for all the references!
I’ll toss one in also. www.kwasizabantu.com Read the section on the history of the revival.
March 7th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
I can agree with that, Dave. My heartburn is with the tendency of people to relegate the presence of God to buildings instead of accepting the truth of His abiding presence in men. In response to my original post above, you rightly observed that the Brownsville phenomenon had likely flamed-out and moved into “institutional stage” … yet people still flock to Brownsville as if revival had just broken out … in fact, a check of Brownsville history ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville_Revival ) suggests that it began in June 1995 and ended in 2000 when Steve Hill moved to Dallas - yet the church continued to hold revival meetings until 2006 … so at what point did the Brownsville revival cease to be a God thing and enter that ‘institutional phase’?
Azusa street did not last. Neither did Toronto, nor Pensacola/Brownsville. Did any of them last 10 years? 5? Kansas City? Bible Temple?
I’d like to recommend the e-book “The New Exodus” by George Davis, Michael Clark and Douglas Weaver at http://www.awildernessvoice.com/NewEx1-Mobile.html
Basically, the authors have observed that God never camps anywhere for long - rather - He stops, does His thing with His people, then moves on. The pattern is seen throughout scripture. In moving on, some will follow, some will stay put and await His return and a few will set up shop. The desire of God is that everyone would move on - hence His command to “follow me” …
Note that the scriptures say Jesus CAME OUT of Nazareth … yes, He was raised there, but when God called, He left - note that Nazareth is not even mentioned in the OT (that I have ever seen) and is known only for the place Jesus grew up - as if they had anything to do with the power and anointing of Jesus … rather, the last mention of Nazareth in the scriptures, is when Jesus declared the fulfillment of Isaiah 61, the men of Nazareth found fault with Him and tried to murder Him by throwing Him off a cliff. Jesus moved on - the people of Nazareth did not. They institutionalized - even today it is a historical / tourist site.
It would seem to me that even today, God is calling men out of religious institutions, to follow His son - at least, in my thinking, that is the essence of God’s command in Revelation 18:4 “come out of her, My people …”
I’m certain there are people who were positively affected by God through Toronto, Brownsville, etc., but at some point, the Spirit moved on and it died, or men moved in and set up shop. What potentially started as an outpouring of God wound up leaving people hurt and disillusioned by it all … men don’t know enough to fold up their tent and move with the Spirit.
Dave, I’ve visited local churches where either the pastor or sr. member visited Toronto and supposedly brought the anointing back with them … I remember one such church in Rockford - the brother made quite a show of walking around the building before the service started where he shook hands with everyone and 1 by 1, they buckled under the ‘anointing’, except me. And the look of anger that flashed over his face when I didn’t fall … in the following sessions, he avoided me. I am convinced a lot of that stuff is witchcraft and hysterical emotionalism. Note also, that I have been slain before and have been carried away in the Spirit - but those experiences never occurred in the assembly, but in private.
Do check out George and Michael’s book above. It really blessed me.
‘Scrupe
March 7th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Some interesting reading on Brownsville at http://www.intotruth.org/brn/Pensa-News1.html
March 8th, 2008 at 12:17 am
WOW! whatHEsaid, I checked out that link on the history of the kwasizabantu revival, and it was great!
I’d often heard over the years about the amazing work God was doing in Africa and in China, with thousands being saved, and with accompanying signs and wonders like in the Early Church in Acts, but to read about it from someone who was there, firsthand, is wonderful.
Does it make your heart burn, too?
O Lord, revive us!
-joe
March 8th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Joe, on the one hand, it delights my heart to see the gospel spread there. On the other, it grieves me to no end when I look at the pictures of said revival … isn’t it strange to see tribal African men dressed in shiny black leather shoes, slacks, white shirt and tie, holding a leather bound / gold page bible? It saddens me because (by appearance) they have not just received Jesus Christ, but they seem to have implemented an American form of building-based churchianity. Even in the main picture at http://www.kwasizabantu.com/ you see evidence of the ‘one man show’ where some preacher perches atop a platform above the common people, flanked by his yes (amen) guys - lecturing the people with sweeping gestures …
So what happened to the likes of Jesus teaching in more of a Q&A format - of Paul teaching to a group of men in an upper room late into the night … what happened to meeting in homes of brother’s and sisters and breaking bread (Acts 2 and 4) …
The American church system is not a pattern / method that should be replicated in Africa … note that I also write a few friends in Kenya - who have been eagerly desiring to come to the US to be Bible schooled … it’s American churchianity that is being implemented in many of those places and I would not venture to call that revival so much as replication.
March 8th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Dude, Scrupe Man, Whatever,
I totally disagree. If wearing suits, carrying Bibles, and meeting in buildings is the worst bi-product of a revival I think they’ll be OK. Look, if instead of going out and eating each other in the bush, they now have developed a more westernized/Christian civilization then I think that’s a step in the right direction, don’t you? By continuing to wear a head dress and a leaf over their thingy doesn’t mean they are necessarily preserving a culture. It just means that they will continue not to fit in with modernizing world and will be perpetually treated as a substandard indigenous “third world”. Which in my opinion would be the saddest event of all; if they were to find Christianity, but not find the organization that it has already brought to the much of planet earth - but that’s just the opinion of an anthropology/ church history junkie.
March 8th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Sola Fraud, Dood, whatever,
The one man show produces sucklings, not spirit-led sons of God. Like Paul wrote to the churchy types in Corinth, who were hung up on who they were following (1 Corinthians 1:12), they were fit only for milk, not solid food / meat (1 Corinthians 3:2).
Could it be that what has been called ‘revival’ is more about embracing the western church model (and a healthy dose of colonialism / civilization) than it is about giving them Jesus and equipping them to be sons of God?
Concering the site whatHEsaid posted, I’ve only skimmed it, but I see no evidence of body ministry (brother to brother), suggesting the typical clergy / laity type divisions common in American churches which render the body impotent. Do you see any evidence of spiritual equipping / empowering of believers on that site?
‘Scrupe
March 8th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Scrupe, Thank you for the e-book title; i filed it in a safe place until I get the time to read it. George Barna would agree with you that there is a mass exodus out of the institutional church in these days in his book, Revolution.
I do not doubt his statistics, and, in some ways, your claim that God is calling many Christians out of the IC (I know I’m one of them that is out) - but I do wish that anti-institutional Christians would use better prooftexts than the one they usually use, i.e., Revelation 18:4.
In my view, the context of Rev 18:4 has nothing to do with coming out of the church; but it has everything to do with a call of the Spirit, first of all, to the first century Christians, to come out from the Babylon of their day, Rome, and its emperor/imperial cult (worship of the emperor). Rome is with little doubt the women who is sitting on the seven hills mentioned in Revelation 17:9:
“Rome, the capital city of Italy, is historically known as ‘City of Seven Hills.’ According to Roman mythology, the seven hills of early Rome were the Cermalus, Cispius, Fagutal, Oppius, Palatium, Sucusa and Velia. But now the modern ‘City of Seven Hills’ includes Myrtle, Blossom, Clock Tower, Jackson, Lumpkin and Old Shorter hills and Mount Aventine.” http://ezinearticles.com
Babylon became characteristic of evil empires from the OT prophets (Jer 50:8; 51:6; 51:9; 51:45) and their call to leave them and their idolatrous religions and return to Yahweh and even to go literally back to the Land was a familiar call from some of the prophets in the OT.
Even when the phrase “Come out from among her and be separate, says the Lord” is used by Paul in 2 Cor 6:17, he is not applying it to coming out of any type of church or church structure, but to coming out of a lifestyle of marriage to unbelievers (2 Cor 6:14) and idolatry (vv 15-16).
March 9th, 2008 at 7:22 am
‘Scrupe–
So, I take it you did not take the time to read the “history” link on the left side of the “kwasizabantu revival” page? Once you do that — and it is, admittedly, long — I would hope that even with your innately suspicious nature you would admit that God has indeed been moving miraculously in that place. in my view, they have something going on there that is strongly reminiscent of the Early Church in Acts, and something I earnestly hunger to see “replicated” in our day.
I do hear where you are coming from in regard to the indigenous people looking/acting like little-joe-christians churned out by the Western IC. But I’m definitely with “only faith” on that one. If — after having read about all of the fruit/results — that’s the worst that can be seen and said of them, I say bring on the skinny black ties and white shirts!
-joe
March 9th, 2008 at 7:43 am
Revelation 18:4 does seem to have become the ’silver bullet’ of the anti-institutional crowd and I often cite it as primary reference. The reality is however that I came out of the IC in response to the Lord’s revelation and promptings over several years.
Dave, let me ask, do you think God ever “rhemas” a scripture to your Spirit in a context other than it was originally written?
For example, could He use 2 Cor. 6:17 or Rev. 18:4 to speak to a believer to come out of the current babylonian church system?
In my own experience, He has, delightfully so. In bringing me to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, He used Ephesians 6:18 “Pray in the Spirit at all times …” and Psalm 81:10 “… open wide your mouth and I will fill it.”
On the day of my baptism, He led me through several scriptures and when I came to Eph. 6:18, I stopped and read it several times - confused by the term “pray in the Spirit” and finally I admitted to Him that I did not know how to “pray in the Spirit”. It was then He said “open wide your mouth and I will fill it” … 3 times I expressed fear - that I felt foolish, but the 3rd time I opened my mouth, He washed over me like a flood and heavenly language came forth.
Arguably, Psalm 81:10 refers to food - in fact, many translations render the scripture I will “feed you” - “give you food” - “fill your empty stomachs” - and of course Psalm 81:10 was written centuries before Pentecost and the gift of tongues. In context, how could it have referred to tongues?
Might scripture have a literal / contextual / historical meaning, and for those of us reading it today, a current / spiritual meaning?
March 9th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Joebib,
On your recommendation, I read the history page and you’re right, it is quite a testimony of the work and power of the Holy Spirit. Like you, I’d love to see the same here. Still for me, there is something missing and perhaps it is just the focus of the site, which is typical of a ‘ministry site’ with typical pastor / ministry focus. I wish it conveyed more of the body-life there - had testimonies from the people who live there - described how local believers had been empowered by the Spirit to do the same as their pastor … but through the history page, I still get a strong sense of the one-man show, as people bring the lame and so forth to the pastor for healing. I imagine there are such stories, but since the site is likely authored by the pastor about his ministry, there is little focus on the works of God through others, nor of the body type ministry that takes place in people’s homes, etc.
March 9th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
“sola fraud” …that was pretty funny actually. Wikepedia “sola fide” though if you want. They have a pretty good definition of it. I would dare to say that like the L.D.S., CBC is not a “sola fide” church.
March 9th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
scrupe, yes, I believe that verses can be quickened out of context for individuals’ needs by the Spirit - but not as the silver bullet for movements…
March 10th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Hey Sambo,
Your question about a verse being quickened brings to mind a dream I once had. It was when Lech Walensa of Polish Solidarity had gone into hiding and no one knew if he had been rubbed out or what.
I dreamed I was there with him in a small room with a low ceiling. We were just visiting. When I woke up I remembered the dream and a scripture, Psalm 21:11. I had no idea what it was! I got my Bible and looked it up. “For they intended evil against thee: they imagined a mischievous device, which they are not able to perform.”
I whirled around in circles trying to figure out how I scould get that message to my ‘friend’ Lech. I finally realized God just wanted me to pray, and He would do the rest. And pray I did! And as you remember He did do ‘the rest’ and Poland was free.
So I have always felt I had a hand in the wonderful thing that happened in Poland! I prayed and God did the rest!
PS: I went to the Brownsville revival and it was wonderful!
March 10th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
That’s cool, JC. Love it when God uses someone like that.
March 10th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Joebib,
Glad you liked the site! I first heard about it while attending a ‘house church conference’ in Salem Oregon. A fellow who had spent some time there described it in glowing terms. He was ready to sign people up for a trip to South Africa.
I too would love to see the Lord sweep His presence through our society. We need it badly.
April 1st, 2008 at 4:33 pm
“I’m certain there are people who were positively affected by God through Toronto, Brownsville, etc., but at some point, the Spirit moved on and it died, or men moved in and set up shop. What potentially started as an outpouring of God wound up leaving people hurt and disillusioned by it all … men don’t know enough to fold up their tent and move with the Spirit.”
soo true!!!
July 7th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
This comment depicts exactly what has happened at KwaSizubantu. I know this from an insider’s view. I am very familiar with the senior pastor and the leadership team, and with those who used to be with the team but have left due to the abuses that have set up, regrettably and heartbreakingly, at the mission. I believe that this work started as a true work of the Lord, but it has most definitely now become a work of man. It has become a ‘one man show’ run by Erlo Stegen who brooks no disagreement with his views or policies or unwritten rules as leader of the mission. Many have been harmed here, and it makes me weep, that something so powerful as this movement of God at the start, has now degenerated into a rule-based, authoratarian, unsafe place, where the spirit of God is subordinated to the spirit of a man.