I was interested in this article from yesterday's The Christian Post, and I must say I agree with the majority of it. The "foolishness of the Cross" refers to Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 1:17-25 regarding what our emphasis is to be in presenting the Good News of Jesus to the world.
I can't remember the last time I was in an IC that didn't preach a seeker-friendly, purpose-driven, watered-down, I'm-OK-You're-OK "gospel."
Conversely, neither can I recall the last time I heard a sermon on the Cross, on Hell, or on the sinfulness and depravity of man, holy living, coming Judgment, man's need to repent, or even self-sacrifice — unless it was sacrifice in regard to the giving of money to that particular IC.
Don't get me wrong…I'm not saying every sermon has to be on the aspect of all this gloomy stuff, as my flesh doesn't enjoy it any more than the next person does. I, too, prefer to hear about all the good stuff, the blessings, benefits and rewards of serving Jesus.
But as I have sat week after week in various LCs over the years, I've noticed their slow and subtle movement toward preaching only that which offends no one, but instead strokes the hearers…
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires;
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. (2 Timothy 4:3-4, NASB)
I am reminded that the one Person who spoke more on accountability, punishment, and Hell than anyone else in the Scriptures was none other than the lowly, love-filled Jesus. In fact, according to scholars who pay attention to these things, preaching on Hell was Jesus' #1 favorite subject. 
Apparently to Him, warning others of impending judgment constituted the highest manifestation of love for mankind.
Here are the high points of the article:
Many Christians will arrive at Easter this year celebrating only half of what the holiest day in the Christian calendar signifies. "
Easter Sunday is not only a most appropriate occasion for celebration, but it also serves as a yearly sobering reminder of a topic that many people work hard to avoid – the harsh reality of death," said C.J. Mahaney, president of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Mahaney was speaking to hundreds in Orlando, Fla., this past weekend at Ligonier Ministries' annual national conference, which concluded Saturday.
Death is a topic most people like to distance themselves from, Mahaney told the crowd on Friday, including during the Easter celebration. On Easter Sunday, when churches expect fuller pews and higher attendance numbers than usual, people expect to hear messages that are cheerful in tone.
But that's not what Easter is only about.
"If we don't understand the harsh reality or theological significance of death, we will never truly celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Mahaney stressed.
Just ahead of the start of Holy Week, which marks the last week of the earthly life of Jesus and is considered the most important week of the year for believers, speakers at the Orlando conference spent three days expounding on Scripture passages that spoke of the cross and resurrection of Jesus.
Bluntly stated, the cross is bloody, it's an offensive message and it's a shameful death in the ears of the world, said Steven J. Lawson, senior pastor of Christ Fellowship Baptist Church in Mobile, Ala., during the Ligonier conference.
The word of the cross is foolishness. In other words, it's nonsense, pointless, idiotic, and mindless. "That is what the cross is to the natural man," Lawson noted.
Even though foolishness to many, a straightforward delivery of the message of the cross and the crucifixion of Jesus is power to those being saved, and it is desperately needed in the church today, he added.
"It is a distasteful announcement that the herald brings and yet, he is responsible to God to discharge his duty to bring the entirety of the message," Lawson said, noting that heralds are marked by the straightforward delivery of the message regardless of what the results may be.
"We need heralds. We need to come back to the foolishness of preaching," he emphasized to hundreds as he denounced modern trends of replacing theology with theatrics and expository preaching with entertainment.
Ligonier Ministries president and founder R.C. Sproul believes many churches are following modern trends and that the church has failed to preach the biblical Gospel.
"Instead of preaching about mankind's depravity and the truth that citizenship in the kingdom of God comes only by the imputation of Christ's righteousness, we hear about a powerless and insipid Creator and the cheap grace He lavishes upon all," he said in an introduction statement for this year's conference, which was aptly themed "Evangelism According to Jesus."
And the result of failing to preach the biblical Gospel is evangelism that introduces people to the wrong Jesus, Sproul noted.
I love Sproul, and "the wrong Jesus" he refers to is doubtless the man-made, Santa Claus "Jesus" of the WOF/Prosperity Movement that wants to give you any- and everything your covetous little heart desires, from a nice big house to expensive, fancy cars in the driveway, and designer sunglasses and clothes, all in exchange for — and dependant upon — you giving all your money to the Senior Pastor's latest monument to his pride, otherwise known as the "building program."
Which is not unlike, it seems to me, the pyramids in Egypt, constructed for the sole purpose of memorializing the Pharaoh-kings who had them built on the backs of the over-burdened people.
Gone are the sermons of yesteryear Pastor Lawson mentions which actually used to contain biblical theology and expository preaching from the Word, as we see exemplified in the Book of Acts.
I really wonder how many Local Churches will preach a message this Sunday that actually resembles anything Jesus and the Apostles would recognize as glorifying the Cross and His Resurrection? Oddly, one would probably have to go to one of the much vilified, mainline, "high churches" to hear such a sermon. 
-joe
Yes, I’m certain I’ll hear a good crucifixion / resurrection message at ‘high church’ this Sunday.
Note that the adult message will follow the ‘children’s sermon’, wherein my only question year after year is, what will the female pastor fill the shiny plastic easter eggs with this year? One year I think there was a tiny plastic baby Jesus in there – so I guess the ‘easter bunny’ brings baby Jesus to good little boys and girls everywhere … last year there were symbols of the crucifixion and resurrection – small nails, thorns, and a flower bud symbolic of new life … so captivating …
Year after year I bide my time until it’s over … I insulate myself against the inevitable heartache of watching ministers mislead people – wondering if the people I care about most will ever wake up. Mindless / rote obedience to tradition, with no idea where it all came from, no inclination to question it all and a stoning for anyone who dares suggest something is amiss.
Yes, sounds like people “rushing helter skelter to destruction with their fingers in their ears” …
The big question for me is always “do I walk in the revelation truth that I have been shown” which to me means “do I skip their pagan festivities”? What of my wife, who has the same revelation, but out of allegiance to family, takes part in it? Do I knuckle under and endure the service / festivities to placate demanding family members?
Same darn internal struggle for me, year after year … this year it has come down to a passage in scripture, where the temple tax collector came collecting – Jesus says “the sons are free” (that’s me) but still pays the tax “lest they take offense with us” …
Maybe I’ll take my Palm Pilot and play solitare or somepin’?
‘Scrupe
I agree, Joe, that more churches need to spend more time preaching the Gospel in its entirety, including sin and repentance, and through repentance comes grace and hope.
But I have one nitpick…
Joe, can you back up this statement? It seems rather astonishing to me, especially when I’ve heard other assertions being made that the Bible talks about money more than other subject. Not that I really believe that one, either. I can recall several parables that relate to Heaven vs. Hell issues, but to say that his Message was dominated by talk of Hell seems a rather skewed perspective of the Gospel. How do you measure that? I seem to recall other topics being more dominant than Hell. It seems to me that there’s more talk about the Holy Spirit, love and unity in John 16 and 17 to make up for all the talk of Hell in the rest of the book. Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount, mentions Hell one time, and Heaven several times. I’m sorry, I guess I just don’t see it.
Please, I’m not trying to pick a fight, it’s just that I’ve heard this comment before, and I want to know where it comes from and what thinking it is based upon.
joe said: …you giving all your money to the Senior Pastor’s latest monument to his pride, otherwise known as the “building program.” Which is not unlike, it seems to me, the pyramids in Egypt, constructed for the sole purpose of memorializing the Pharaoh-kings who had them built on the backs of the over-burdened people.
joe, “bingo, bango, bongo!” as the announcer says…
with a few serious comments:
(1) the Egyptians practiced tithing, too
(2) the pyramids were actually the tombs of the pharoahs and needed hidden passageways to try to protect all of the treasures within from robbers; the difference between this Egyptian practice of laying up treasures in the pyramid/tombs of the pharoah-gods and the Prosperity Preachers is that the latter don’t believe that the gold and riches will be awaiting them in the next life, so they go for the money now…
(3) the funerary-pyramid cult of Egypt helped to bankrupt the country laying it open to its enemies and to famine; the prosperity cult of USA may help to bankrupt church members who believe the lies and half-truths they are being fed every week from the pulpit
Yikes!
Guess I really am getting pwned this time, FICM!
Well, TTYTT, I have heard this — or something similar to it — many times over the years, but I'm not sure I can provide the precise statistic short of spending a couple days counting out the words from the Gospel texts.
A quick look at Google did provide these, though:
1. "According to the gospels, Jesus spoke more on Hell than on any other subject"
(http://209.85.173.104/searchq=cache:UtKJGlT4U0IJ:www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm+Jesus+spoke+more+about+hell+than+any+other+person&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us)
2. "In fact, Jesus spoke more of hell than anyone else in the entire bible." (http://209.85.173.104/searchq=cache:CSBuOgw3fEsJ:www.geocities.com/cobblestoneministries/2006/Jesus_vsTheNewAgeMovement.html+Jesus+spoke+more+about+hell+than+any+other+person&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us)
3. "Hell, the subject Jesus spoke about more than any other person in the Bible. In fact, Jesus said more about hell than He said about heaven."
(http://209.85.173.104/searchq=cache:5jqj9c18vk0J:ecchristianliterature.us/booklets/doctrine/doctrine.html+Jesus+spoke+more+about+hell+than+any+other+person&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us)
4. "Jesus preached six times more on hell than He ever did on Heaven."
(http://209.85.173.104/searchq=cache:77GAuDSS_SUJ:www.fbbc.com/messages/one_step/one_step_26.htm+Jesus+spoke+more+about+hell+than+any+other+person&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=28&gl=us)
Still though, I realize the above is not proof positive, and now that you mention it and I think about it, I too, seem to remember hearing that Jesus spoke more about money than any other subject! Oh well.
How about if we revise the statement in my post to say this…?
Now at least, I am within the bounds of vagary.
Wise decision, Former-boy.
-joebib
It seems like a matter of emphasis, Joe. One person might read all that Jesus said concerning salvation and conclude the bulk of his message was about avoiding hell / punishment, while another might conclude Jesus revealed the way to enter into the kingdom / life.
The rich young ruler asked “what must I do to have eternal life” … does the question suggest that what he’d heard up to that point, struck him as more to do with punishment for sin, than what was required for life / salvation?
On the flip side, the pharisees who dogged Jesus He called “vipers” and asked “how can you escape the damnation of hell”?
The contrast in statements suggests Jesus reply was driven by the condition / inquiry of the person(s) who sought him out … it might be interesting Joe, to parse the heaven and hell type references, by the audience Jesus was addressing (or talking about as in the case of the pharisees).
That Jesus was the Son come to check on the Father’s vineyard, and who ran up against the hostile tenants who murdered Him, perhaps it is fair to say that He preached salvation / life to those who were seeking, and damnation / punishment to those who were trying to shut up heaven in men’s faces …
Sorry, Joe, you gotta work on your links! That being said, most of these are claims unbacked by any actual statistics or method for showing that these statements are true. They are tenuous generalizations to fit the purpose of convincing the reader that Hell is an important topic to discuss.
1. http://www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm
My take: 70 references to Hell in passing is hardly a case for being a dominant theme of Christ’s teaching. He actually uses the word “hell” only 20 times in all 4 Gospels. And I think it’s fair to say that in many of the cases he references Hell He also is referencing Heaven. I think he uses the word “love” a lot more often than Hell, so why isn’t this the most frequent topic?
2. http://www.geocities.com/cobblestoneministries/2006/Jesus_vsTheNewAgeMovement.html
My take: This might be true, but also taught about other things with greater frequency than anyone else, like hypocrisy and the sins of the Pharisees.
3. http://ecchristianliterature.us/booklets/doctrine/doctrine.html
My take: An inflammatory book summary (pun intended) designed to sell said book on the subject of Hell hardly seems like a worthy reference to backing up a position.
4. http://www.fbbc.com/messages/one_step/one_step_26.htm
My take: Again no actual count is given on the use of heaven vs. hell, or hell vs. any other topic.
So, why am I harping on this topic? I dislike religious teachers who spout statistics that don’t really mean anything in order to support their current sermon or pet doctrine. As someone who works in a field related to statistics, it’s annoyingly dumb. As someone who studies the teachings of Christ, it smacks of sensationalism instead of sound doctrine. OK, I won’t rant any more. I’ve said enough.
Back on topic, let me ask you a related question. Which version of Hell do think is the most terrible?
A) Burning in fire
B) Being forever separated from the only Being who ever loved you COMPLETELY, and knowing it was because you rejected Him in spite of His attempts at reconciliation and restoration?
Most modern views of Hell usually involve pictures of lakes of fire and torment by demons with pitchforks. It’s debatable, in my opinion, if the descriptions of Hell given in Scripture are literal or allegorical; that is, a spiritual Hell is describable in the physical world using only physical terms, but it is only a poor translation. It’s like trying to describe colors to a blind man. In my mind, the worst punishment one could ever receive is choice “B” regardless of how that translates to a physical description. Paul calls it a “spiritual death” as a metaphor to describe eternal separation from God. Whether Hell is an actual place or merely a state of existence (non-existence?) is a question we can’t answer, but the implications of such a thing are terrible to imagine.
It’s why the Cross and Redemption are such a wonderful message!
Occurs to me that the way in which we hear Jesus message depends on what spirit we are influenced by. To someone under the spirit of fear, Jesus message seems likely to sound like a message of damnation / punishment. With the spirit of love, His message is more likely to sound like an appeal to salvation / life. Ref. 1 Cor. 2:9-16, Romans 8:15, 2 Tim. 1:7, 1 John 4:18.
Hell and money….hmmm. I have looked up tithing in the NT, it is used 3 times. Baptize, baptized, baptizing nearly 150 times. I do feel there is a HUGE imbalance of time spent on tithing vs. baptism.
I have also heard/read that the favorite subject of Jesus was ‘the kingdom of God’. I have not counted the references on that one.
Interesting perspectives.
Meh!
Pfft! Emphasis, Schmemphasis.
We’re virtually inundated around here with people tellin’ us how we need to vote for a Muslim for prez, people denyin’ what the Bible teaches about homos, people sayin’ my boy Moses was some kinda loadie, and people even tryin’ to continue fomenting Black/White, Negro/Caucasian, African-American/European-American hostilities…yeah, just what we need.
But do you and FICM go after those camels?
NOOO-O!
Instead, you guys come over to one of my innocent, biblical posts and gang up on me with the gnat-straining — a post that actually openly criticizes the IC, no less!
Wassup with that?
-joe
Because it’s fun…?
One man’s camel is another man’s gnat. Or something like that. Don’t take it too personally, I’m on your side with this one. A lot of churches are afraid to present the whole Gospel as it was intended, and I agree with you on that. But this would be a rather destitute comments area without some kind of controversy. I wouldn’t know what to do with myself on my lunch break if it wasn’t for these debates. heh
In my younger days, I was sure the answer to your question was undoubtedly A), and that Hell-fire was literal.
And it may very well be.
But, in answer to your question as to severity, now that I've had the opportunity to live a few years, and have gone through some stuff, and pondered the idea of Hell and punishment quite a bit, I've come to the (guarded) conclusion that…
Option B) would definitely, IMO, be the more horrible of the two.
I know that for me, mental anguish is worse than physical suffering. Those of you who have children can quickly see the truth in this. Which would you rather undergo…watching someone torture your children or for you to suffer physically?
But to spend the eons of time in a place where not only was I forever separated from all those I loved — as well as from Him Who loved me enough to pay for my place in Hell — but also where I was being continually punished with a fully-activated mind, will, emotions and conscience, having all of my physical, emotional and mental desires, yearnings, doubts, frustrations, regrets, shame and fears literally bombarding my psyche 24-hours a day, would, I think, be worse than literal fire.
-joe
No worries FICM. I was just funnin', too.
Yes it would. And I have to admit I've done a bit of trolling once or twice myself, just to liven things up a bit.
-joe
Isn’t it a little disturbing that nearly all the comments focus on “how often did Jesus talk about hell” instead of the dominant theme of the original post, THE FOOLISHNESS OF THE CROSS?! The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is what Easter is about, and I, for one, appreciate joebib’s reminder and comment about how few Christian churches will likely focus on the whole truth of Christ’s death and resurrection this week.
I am grateful that my church actually does, regularly, talk about the total depravity of man, the wrath of God, the meaning of Christ’s sacrificial death in our place, and the meaning of his grace. Not that I fully understand it all, but I am very grateful to hear it regularly instead of “fluff.”
Christ is risen indeed!!!
Uh, no, it’s not.
Easter history
Another Easter history
Easter in Wikipedia
Well now, that’s Biblical, isn’t it?
[Comment ID #31907 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thank you. I was waiting for someone to point out what Easter ACTUALLY is.. that’s what I was expecting when I saw the title “Foolishness of the Cross for Easter.”
Easter, in its entirety, is a pagan celebration that Christianity absorbed like a sponge. Which, through the annals of history since the time Jesus walked, is something that Christianity has done a lot of. I’d be willing to wager that Christianity (or, perhaps better termed churchianity) today bears little to no resemblance of first-century Christianity..
Guess you haven't seen this verse, 'scrupy…
Well now, that IS biblical, isn't it? Ooops!
Heh-heh.
OK, actually, it isn't, as "Easter" should more properly be translated as "Passover," and is another reason why the good old KJV should always be double-checked against the Greek.
Still though, I don't get particularly hung up on Christianity's nomenclature.
Or even on celebrating "Christmas" (literally "Christ's mass") on December 25th, even though it is virtually certain that Jesus was not born on this date, but that this was rather the time of a pagan festival.
The main thing to is to celebrate His Birth on at least one day of the year.
And even if the world has pretty much all but corrupted the true meaning, still, He does get some press every year at this time, and we as believers have the chance to remind everyone in our sphere the true meaning of it.
And for that matter, so what if the Christmas tree itself is also of pagan origin? I choose — like God does in saving mankind — to redeem it's unbiblical roots and redefine what it is saying: the green boughs speak of Life in Christ, the silver tinsel as a sign of Redemption, the golden braids as His Deity, and the red bulbs as symbolic of His Blood.
I used to teach my children that all the presents under the tree are not what it's about, but the gifts that are under the Cross — God's Tree — like mercy, grace, forgiveness, and salvation.
Yes, it would be more correct to call Easter "Resurrection Sunday," and it should have nothing to do with bunnies and eggs, though I do enjoy an occasional chocolate one.
But whatever we call it, the main thing is we celebrate that He, indeed, IS RISEN.
So, while I do enjoy all the repartee — especially the ease with which verbal opponents are dispatched — I agree with the sentiment of MyLilPo in the danger of clouding the main issue by the time-honored, yet pharisaical practice of gnat-straining…
Yep.
Let us rejoice in this!
-joe
Wrong! Bucko!
Back up and read vs. 1-3 … (here it is, in KJV for you … I know those “thees” and “thous” soothe your troubled mind) …
Herod (a roman and non-believer, determined to ‘vex’ the church) kills James and imprisons Peter – and Herod determines to wait until after the Easter festival which the unbelieving Roman / pagans were celebrating.
If Easter was a CHRISTIAN celebration, and Herod observed it (as a Christian celebration) along with the people, that would suggest everyone had converted to Christianity … so why was Herod bangin’ on James and Peter to the pleasure of the people?
From the passage, it’s clear the Church is under persecution – IF Easter were a Christian celebration, wouldn’t they be trying to stamp that out, too, along with the church leadership? The dominant religion of the peoples was paganism / romanism (Ceasar worship) … so the celebration of Easter you cited is pagan.
Now for the Chaldees, Joe, are mentioned as early as Genesis 11:28 – they are the people God brought Abraham OUT OF and told Abraham to be separate from them. Of the 13 mentions of the Chaldees in the OT, they are identified as destroyers of the temple, captors of God’s people in Babylon, etc. In other words, the Chaldees are the BAD GUYS, Joe.
So IF Pascha/Easter originated with the Chaldees as noted in Strong’s, then Easter is truly of pagan/heathen origins. And the one mention of “Easter” in the NT, is NOT reference to Christian celebration, but that it was an established PAGAN celebration still observed by the Romans.
But we really shouldn’t talk like this, Joe, it gives FICM an headache.
‘Scrupe
The world has not “corrupted” the true meaning of these holidays. If anything, Christianity has corrupted the true meaning of these holidays by adopting them into the Christian religion. If you want to celebrate Easter “without corruption,” you’d need to have sex with a virgin on the altar of the fertility goddess and then slay the 3-month old baby conceived on Easter a year later on the following Easter and dye eggs with its blood. I know, grotesque, but that’s where our great Easter celebration originated.
So if you just give everything some little Christian meaning, it’s ok? You, who are so sure the NT endorses regulating the lifestyle choices of non-Christians with legislature (gay marriage), think that this same God — who is so harsh against homosexuality that you believe it will destroy our country to allow it — is fine with HIS people celebrating a holiday that is completely of pagan origin?
Personally, I think how people celebrate Easter, Christmas, etc. is up to them and their own discretion, in the SAME WAY that I believe that the lifestyle choices of a non-Christian are also up to THEIR discretion. Total regulation of people’s lifestyle choices just seems, to me, a little, oh, I don’t know.. Old Testament?
Look, that Christmas Tree has no intrinsic moral value in and of itself. Thus, we choose to view the stuff we put on it — bulbs and wreaths with, again, no innate moral value — as symbolically representing the virtues of Christ.
Are cars morally bad because some people commit sin in their back seats?
Are televisions innately evil because they air R-rated and NC-17 movies?
Is a Christian going to Hell because at one point in the past he was unregenerate, and a follower of Satan?
I treat this whole holiday thing as being akin in principle to Paul’s teaching on idols in 1 Corinthians 8, which he explains are “nothing” in themselves to the believer. My conscience is not affected in the least by holidays that happen to have ancient pagan origins, unless of course my putting up a Christmas Tree, or eating a chocolate Easter egg makes you stumble, in which case I won’t do it in front of you.
Now we come to the heart of the matter, specifically, your attempt to attribute guilt by association. Unfortunately, the attempt fails, as you are comparing apples and oranges (or sin and chocolate).
Sodomy is specifically and clearly denominated as an abominable sin in the Scriptures, while chocolate bunnies, AFAIK, are not.
I am well aware of the pagan backdrop of Easter. Even used to
harpteach against it — with quite an anointing, BTW — in years gone by. However, the ancient origin of it means little to me since I reject those roots altogether in my celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. I couldn’t care less about the etymology of the word.Nor do I refrain from driving my “car,” even though it originally referred to a “two-wheeled Celtic war chariot.”
Nor from using the word “Scripture,” even though it can be connected to the evil “Scribes” in the New Testament.
Nor am I afraid to quote from the Book of “James,” which is “Jacob” in the Greek, and means “deceiver.”
Easter, Schmeaster.
And like I said, neither do I attribute evil to eating a chocolate bunny — unless by doing so I gain 100 lbs. and come under the heading of being a glutton (Romans 16:18b; Philippians 3:19, NASB). If you regard them as evil, then I advise you to not eat ‘em.
It is undeniable that the world-system, in the main, views Christmas unbiblically. Period. I know most everyone around here is obsessed with pointing the finger at someone else — usually a LC or SP — but whether or not what the world does is the Church’s fault is really beside the point. God will judge both His Church and the world for their sins.
To quote the Bard, this whole beware-because-of-the-pagan-background! thing is really much ado about nothing, and we should really devote our energies to matters of importance. If you can show me from sola scriptura that chocolate bunnies or Christmas Trees are sinful, I’ll stand corrected.
-joebib
Eleytheria,
The statements above resonate with what I’ve been mulling over the last several days …
Previously I’ve mentioned the annual trip to my in-laws where there will be easter baskets for my nieces and nephews, the youngest of whom is 16 (OMG!) and an easter egg hunt … there will be the annual family trip to the ‘high church’ liturgical service as Joe calls it and the pastors will seek to make easter traditions relevant by affixing some Christian meaning to the symbols of the pagan fertility celebration … it all makes me heart sick – to see Christians lap up this mixture of gospel and paganism, truth and lies, life and tradition …
I’m blessed to have a wife who has the same revelation as me, to live and fellowship with, but when we head to her family home, she’s thrust into a position of carrying out family traditions which includes high church, pagan celebration, etc. So she finds herself stuck in the middle, between me and the revelation I’m trying to walk out and which I hope / expect her to walk out as well and her family who still abides by pagan tradition.
Like I said, sometimes it comes down to reasoning like that found in the scripture concerning the temple tax collector “pay him, so he won’t take offense”.
But even when I resolve to ‘grin and bare it’ for a day, I’m tormented … because I view those things as idols – and I believe the Lord has commanded us to put away idols, to come out of the world, to walk in the revelation He gives us rather than dabble in our old “childish ways” and things. You know?
Being with my family at any time of year other than Christmas or Easter is a lot of fun – because we talk, watch movies, play games, etc. and everyone has a good time. But on the high church holidays, there is such expectation of participation in traditions of paganism and religious idolatry, it proves miserable and I find myself looking for an escape.
Lest I sound like a wimp, I’ve been at this for many years and have talked with my family about it several times. No matter what approach I take, concerning the history of C&E, what the symbols really mean, the fact that they claim to be ‘sola scriptura’ but their C&E celebrations can not be found in scripture, that it’s mixture, it is always greeted with scoffing and the truth is summarily dismissed in order to continue embracing their mixture of truth and idols.
And this Joe, is where I think Easter utterly fails to embrace the cross.
To me, the cross is not foolish, but we who are to be crucified with Christ on that cross, are foolish. For we are a fallen people, each one seemingly a slave to dead religious works. Desperately we try to succeed in religious works to feel some measure of worth or to have a hand in our own salvation. Whereas the cross, which utterly subdues and ultimately puts our religious works prone flesh to death, goes to show our complete inability to do anything of worth to God, except to die.
If Easter were truly and truthfully Christian, it would be a day whose only symbols are a cross and an empty tomb, beckoning us to do likewise. I should think it would be a day of awe and worship of the Son of God, and of confession and repentance for how far we’ve fallen.
The problem with Easter as celebrated today, is so few people allow the cross to make fools of them. Instead, most people defer their date with foolishness, to judgment day. No wonder it is written that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
‘Scrupe
C'mon bro-ski, waddya say we get real here? For, if THAT is the standard, then neither should you…
…nor own Electric Toothbrushes, Lazy-Boys, Razors, Computers, Radios, Walkmans, TVs, Palm-pilots, Mp3s, Lawnmowers, Cars…on and on the list would go.
Nor should you opine on the famous C-BUS-C blog BTW, a practice I have yet to find in the pages of Holy Writ.
Rather, you should jettison all such stuff, in order to truly…
OK, obviously I've made the point clear enough for you to see, and not continue to argue just for the sake of being contrary, eh 'scrupy? No one is worshiping Bugs Bunny, nor bowing down and chanting before bejeweled Christmas Trees over here.
Neither am I advocating going into a church building and engaging in pagan religious practices as part of one's observance of Christ's Resurrection, which if is the case at your family's LC, is another story altogether.
I'm just saying I find no problem going to something we call an "Easter Service" or "Christmas Service," at which I will worship Jesus together with the saints in a biblical manner.
Or later, going over to Grandma's house to eat what we call the "Easter Ham," the "Christmas Turkey," or even "Deviled eggs."
If you would change this to say: "The problem with the way some people celebrate Easter today," then I would say, "Amen."
-joe
Joebob,
My remark concerning C&E celebrations per scripture is limited to the liturgical churches notion that the birthday of baby Jesus and the annual observation of His resurrection, together with all the traditional trappings, is somehow Christian, even biblical.
These holidays have become the religious equivalent of “pork barrel politics” – where someone who was well intentioned, I’m sure, thought those occasions should be celebrated annually and countless people piled on with their ideas of how it should be celebrated.
Now I am reminded of Jesus words at the last supper “as OFT ye do this, remember me” … if anything, Jesus told us to remember Him and his sacrifice EVERY SINGLE time we break bread, not just once per year on Easter (or Maundy Thursday as celebrated in high church).
I relate to this in a personal way … the Lord has told us how He wants to be remembered, but His people seem to be of the mindset “screw that – we are going to remember you in the way we want to remember you” … and so His request of daily / continual remembrance is relegated to annually, and He is remembered through vain attempts to paint pagan acts of idolatry as Christian.
My b-day is between Christmas and New Years. So is my b-i-l and 2 of my nephews. For years I’ve suggested to my family that I’d like to have supper at a chinese food restaurant, but because there are 4 of us with b-days in 5 days, it’s always the same whether we like it or not. I’ve even asked my b-i-l and nephew how they feel about it, and neither like the way their b-day is celebrated. Yet when our family asks how we liked our b-day ‘parties’, each of us claim to like it just fine, not because we liked it, but because we know they can’t and won’t hear us concerning what we want. They are only willing to give us what they want to give us. I figure my experience gives me just a little glimpse into how Jesus must feel – considering he’s asked us to remember him “in this way” and we do our own thing, instead.
I believe it is a matter of love and honor. And I can imagine Jesus says still: “how long shall I put up with you” or “are you still so dull” after all this time? Do you suppose Joe, that Jesus ever wonders when the hell his children are going to grow up and be conformed to His way / likeness and stop clinging to the things / ways of the world?
Note, that I am guilty as well, in that the Lord observed the Jewish holidays … following His example, should I celebrate the feasts? Refusing to celebrate the western/pagan C&E annual bash, while also refusing to celebrate the Jewish holidays as Jesus did – seems a bit non-committal … it just reflects that for me, each day is the same … a day in Christ Jesus and nothing more / less …
Makes me wonder whether in Revelation there is any indication that special days are celebrated in the new heaven and new earth – in His kingdom? And IF that is where we are going and what He is growing us to be, wouldn’t you think we’d begin to lose our appetite for the world’s religious cluster f—s?
‘Scrupe
TTYTT, I really wouldn't mind giving him a real good headache!
In return for the one I got trying to first follow, and then wallow — yes wallow — through all that hair-splitting tommyrot that went on between him and "Wassup Doc?" under the Obama-Same-Sex-Unions thread.
Sheesh…what a couple of pompous pontificators.
I wager their keyboards fairly begin to smoke as they feverishly post back and forth, barely taking the time — or courtesy — to actually read and ponder what the other guy said, just so they can all-the-quicker get to hear themselves spout off more ponderous drivel at one another.
They evidently have serious crushes on their own, highfalutin opinions, and are obviously bereft of the maturity you and I possess.
-joe
Apples and oranges. There is no spiritual significance attached to either cars or televisions, they are physical, material objects which do not try to claim to be anything more. I don’t know what kind of car you drive, but my car has never tried to parade itself as a “Christian” car, nor do I attach spiritual significance to things like the gas or the exhaust system on my car. When I bought my television, it wasn’t advertised as having anything to do with Jesus.
I have no idea what this has to do with anything other than a failed attempt at setting up a straw man. I never even inferred to anything like this.
Exactly my point. They’re meaningless. I have no problem with Easter bunnies, candy, Christmas trees, or any of that kind of stuff. It’s all fun for the kids who are just stoked to get candy. My problem is taking a pagan holiday and pagan rituals and saying that they’re Christian. They’re not.
If we want to be “technical,” the heart of what I said was pointing out the ridiculousness of saying that the world has corrupted the Christian meaning of a pagan holiday. I was more or less trying to point out here that if you’re going to harp about pagan homosexuality, you should also not want to be celebrating pagan holidays. I specifically said a paragraph later that I could really care less whether or not people celebrate Easter, I just think that they should know better than to associate bunnies laying eggs with Christianity.
Precisely why I mentioned them. As are chocolate bunnies, BTW.
And, as is a Xmas Tree as well, unless of course, you are having a hard time not falling down before one in worship every December 25th at midnight. In which case I would say…don’t buy one.
It was to point out that:
1) I view the problem you have with Easter’s past (pagan) origins as being the same in principle to the Christian’s past unregenerate state, and,
2) Since he is therefore not going to go to Hell now just because of his past, neither do I now regard Easter as something horrible just because of its origin.
Well, it seems to me that you did, by virtue of getting your you-know-whats in a wad over me enjoying a chocolate egg at Easter.
Agreed.
Again, I know of no one who literally worships Bugs Bunny at Easter or O Tannenbaum at Xmas, thus I don’t share the same horror you and ‘scrupy do(o) at these harmless props.
Still though, I made sure my children knew at an early age that at Easter we were celebrating the Resurrection of Jesus, as we were celebrating His Birth at Xmas.
To quote Strother Martin, I think what we have here is failure to communicate. This is something with which you (and ‘scrupy-doo-doo) are peeved, due to your personal experiences, and something which doesn’t bother me anymore due to mine. Speaking for myself, I’ve got bigger fish to fry in modeling the life of Jesus before the world than to lecture them on being “duped” by this or that Holiday’s pagan origins, something of which they — in all likelihood — were happily ignorant of 5 minutes before I enlightened them with the information.
-joe
Have you read anything I have said?
If we want to be “technical,†the heart of what I said was pointing out the ridiculousness of saying that the world has corrupted the Christian meaning of a pagan holiday.
I’ll spell it out simply for you: I DON’T care whether or not people celebrate Easter. It’s their prerogative. I just think it’s a bit RIDICULOUS and ASININE to claim that the big, bad world and the flimsy flaky half-Christians are corrupting the Christian meaning of a wholly PAGAN HOLIDAY. Which is what your WHOLE ORIGINAL POST was about. I don’t care how you celebrate Easter, whether you eat fish on Good Friday (also of Pagan origin), whether you eat chocolate bunnies or if you bow down before a bunny that lays eggs. It’s your life, do what you want.
I don’t feel the need to attach spiritual significance to driving a car or watching TV, and in the same way I don’t feel the need to attach any spiritual significance to a watered-down imitation of a pagan festival.
And I’m done.
Joe,
You have an uncanny knack for trivializing … bro – what goes on in my heart on C&E has very little to do with the symbols or festivities themselves … the heartache is loneliness – frustration – with my brothers and sisters … it grieves me to the core that there is no relational fellowship in Christ, no breaking bread, no bearing witness of the work of the Spirit – no feasting on the portion of Christ that is in each of us … rather their involvement in paganized Christianity – in religious institutions – the pledging of their heads to men and not the Lord – to tradition and not the Spirit and truth, has utterly stunted their growth – I ache that the closest we ever come to sharing Christ Jesus, is sitting through a lifeless liturgical services, rote recitations, irrelevant religious acts, etc.
Where C&E are the high points of the church year, their religious bondage is the most evident then, I despise these religious celebrations the most of all.
‘Scrupe
Who you callin' asinine, bucko?
Don't forget friend, you
hijackedjumped in with the condescension and nay-saying. I'm just over here tryin' to fend 'em off.For the record, my WHOLE ORIGINAL POST was intended to be about the Resurrection of Jesus — and other cardinal doctrines — getting overlooked in the seeker-friendly IC today. Which was ignored.
It was NOT intended to give a history of the etymology of a particular word, nor the ancient roots of custom, which is what it got morphed into.
Good. Me, too.
FWIW, I ain't the only one round here who has a knack for doing this — and similar — sorts of things.
Still though, I am sorry 'bout that bro. I don't mean to minimize your feelings or heartache at the shallowness we see in the majority of the IC around us. I guess it's more acute with you having to sit through the high-church services several times a year, which I don't, thank goodness.
I suppose it's just that I sometimes get weary/impatient at the hair-splitting/nitpicking and gnat-straining (and yes, I've done it, too) of minor/particular points of posts that have been posted while overlooking the camel of more important reasons. KWIM?
Like when that guy jumped in the "Gospel of John" thread to nitpick and toot his horn about "the beloved disciple," and hawk his hobby-horse book. Remember? The guy probably spends his days googling "the beloved disciple," and then when he finds it, bursts into the particular blog to "educate" them on his notions.
Or, like in "The Room" thread, to give just one more example. My thing was how the dream beautifully illustrated — even if it wasn't a perfect illustration — how Christ took away our sins. Sadly, this blessing became obscured with the accusation of "Wait! This kid never actually said that! The whole thing is fake!"
Which to me, I couldn't care less who really said it first. That wasn't even the point. You know?
Even Henri's reaction to the OP was obscured in the fray. Which is sad.
Another trend I see — which is probably something the more astute ones around here, especially the mods, have already observed long ago — is that oft-seen web practice of people reading/interpreting a thread/post through their own jaded biases, definitions, and personal experiences, and then promptly forcing their own take/interpretation on it down everyone else's collective throats.
Which, I also have done.
But, it doesn't mean I like it when it happens.
Anyway…
-joe
KWYM. And “the room” thing was lame-o religious. It pointed up the fact that there are SO FEW real testimonies of Christ Jesus among religious people, so few who have experienced the Spirit of Truth, that they have to make up religious fiction to invoke feelings of awe / appreciation in others. As often as it’s pointed out how fake the CBC culture is, it’s shouldn’t surprise how quickly fakery is sniffed out here – if it hadn’t been me, it would have been someone else.
KWIM? ‘Scrupe
‘Scrupe, if you’re saying the kid who plagiarized it in order to pass the dream off as his own was lame-o, then I agree, that was deceptive.
But, if you’re saying the dream itself was lame-o, I disagree.
No, it’s not a perfect, nor complete, illustration of Jesus’ work. But what is? You go ahead and put up your own well-meaning, but abstract, illustration of some biblical truth or another, and I could just as easily shoot it down, believe me.
But what good what that do?
Correct me if I’m wrong, ‘scrupe, but was it not established that Pastor Josh Harris did have the original dream?
So in my view, it was enough to reference the correct source of the dream, but not to denigrate Pastor Harris’ testimony as lame-o nor unreal. It wasn’t to him.
FWIW, I agree with anna’s assessment:
Another thing, since Mr. Harris apparently did get this dream from the Lord, and it doesn’t, AFAIK, blatantly violate basic biblical doctrine, I’m kinda surprised a “Holy Ghost” guy like yourself would be peeved enough to describe something Mr. Harris feels he got from the Lord in “Holy Ghost” fashion as “lame-o” and “fiction.”
A perfect example, I reckon, of the above-mentioned reading of another’s take on something, with a “jaded” viewpoint.
Could it be you view his perception of what the Lord did for him to be less mature, or more folksy, than your perception of what the Lord has done for you?
Guess we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on this, as I still feel you’re being too cynical, bro.
-joe
Joe, I don’t recall it being established that Mr. Harris “got the dream from the Lord”, and in fact, my own discernment detected a religious mindset throughout the writing … I offered my discernment of it, together with numerous scripture references, and there was no one to address the discernment. See this comment and my follow up comment a few posts later.
That said, it’s been my experience when the Lord begins talking to someone, the pure truth of what the Lord has said, is often distorted by the inability of our flesh to understand it, or the tendency of our flesh to try and quantify God’s truth in ways our mind can understand.
What I mean by that, take my earliest songs, for example. Undoubtedly they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, who was beckoning me to move forward with Him into greater truth. To the best of my ability, I expressed the Truth I was shown in song. Today, I am much farther down the road than I was then, and looking back, I can see the religious / IC mindset expressed in the lyrics. And so when I packed my songs in a CD, the Lord led me to express the story as my journey to Christ / Truth, which seemingly began by “going to church” and in Sunday school, but which ultimately ended with me leaving the IC altogether and finding myself a Jesus feet, to learn and worship.
That “Room” writing isn’t necessarily the Lord saying to someone “this is how it works in judgment” as it implies, rather, it may well have been for the dreamer only, to set him free of his religious mindset of accountability for “every idle word” or “every sin” he’d ever done.
There was a time I feared judgment like that … but the Lord I have come to know and love and believe in, will not greet me after physical death with an instant replay of all my sin, but will greet me like a son come home, with a “well done good and faithful servant” … for scripture says I am ALREADY with Christ, already re-born, already saved, with sins forgiven and garments washed clean …
The notion that we will begin the celebration of my entry to the Father’s kingdom with a trip to the proverbial woodshed, is not a view I hold anymore, because of the continuing revelation truth of the Lord – because He has stripped / delivered me from a lot of that old thinking rooted in religion …
I simply see the religious trappings of that “Room” story, and it triggers my discernment, and does not “line up” with scripture, in my view.
You know, embedded in every dream and vision we receive from the Father, is the call to ‘receive this and come further’ – none of them are an ‘end all’ of complete truth. 15 years ago, I’d have appreciated that dream because that’s where I was at, then. But now and with the revelation I have, it doesn’t ring true.
‘Scrupe
Just as I hit “post”, it occurred to me that perhaps the man’s dream consists of 2 parts. Perhaps the room filled with cards upon which every sin and idle word the man ever committed, represented the dreamers fears / worries. And then the Lord, in removing and signing every single card over with His name in blood, was from the Lord, to set the man free from His fears.
I do not receive the WHOLE dream as from the Lord, Joe. But I can see his hand in it, as well as the dreamers fear / religious mindset. The 2 parts of the dream together, represent a spiritual battle, between FEAR and LOVE, which of course LOVE won. (Perfect LOVE casts out all FEAR).
‘Scrupe
‘scrupe said:
I do agree. It’s just magnified during C&E because contemplating the significance of the birth, death, and resurrection of our Lord increases the desire for real fellowship, and we notice its absence all the more.
In those times, we have to look at the meaning of the Cross: reconciliation and fellowship with the Father. I say to the Lord all the time, “YOU are my fellowship. I have friends with whom I have real relationship, but I see them maybe once a month. That’s not enough to satisfy.”
It is not good for man to be alone… so eventually, the Lord will give us the opportunity for true fellowship with each other. In the meantime, we take extra time to be with Him.
Happy Ostra/Ostern, everybody!
You are aware, are you not, that the word "happy" comes from hap, meaning "chance" or "fortune" (see haphazard).
Two things of which the Christian's life has nothing to do, as all is in accordance with the Father's Will and plan for us. See Jeremiah 29:11, NASB, and Romans 12:2.
FYI, the historical etymology of "happy" comes from the Old English eadig, which in turn comes from ead, meaning "wealth, riches."
More things which the true believer should not seek. See 1 Timothy 6:9-10; James 5:1-3, et al.
I don't see how you can use a word with such an unbiblical origin.
Have a biblical Easter, everybody!
-joe
Most easter services have been turned into seeker services to get more people into the seats. The desire for CROWDS have hypnotized many of our churches in america. Its not so much about making disciples then it is filling the seats.
The harvest is not at the local church. The harvest is at your job, your athletic club, you school etc.
Go be with the people. Thats where Jesus was….