HOMOSEXUALITY AND THE CHRISTIAN
Posted on March 27th, 2008 by joebib into the Other Blogs, joebib writes categoryI came across this article under the Q & A section of John Piper’s excellent blog.
Inasmuch as "the homosexual question" just won’t seem to quietly go away from the lofty threads of C-BUS-C — see the debate under the Obama And Same Sex Union thread — I thought Dr. Piper's take on the matter, this aspect of negative/positive confession, was interesting.
In the original article, he provides a link to a position paper he helped draft on homosexuality, which I have appended. It all runs rather long, and will perhaps be a bit tedious to some, I still think it's some good food for thought. At the very least, it will help keep us occupied till Cat gets back and starts earning his pay again.
I just hope I’m not in violation of any copyright laws in cutting and pasting this stuff here.
{{Shudder}}
“How can we help Christians who are struggling with homosexual desires?”
(By John Piper January 16, 2008.)
(The following is an edited transcription of the audio.)
How can we help Christians who are struggling with homosexual desires?
I would encourage them to be careful not to define themselves as "homosexual." Don't say, "I am gay," or "I am a homosexual." Say, rather, "I struggle with homosexual desires." That's a very small—and huge—distinction.
There was a Christian brother in our church who had AIDS due to his history in the homosexual lifestyle. The Lord wonderfully saved him from that, and he taught me so many things over the 10 years or so that we were together. He also helped me draft a one-page statement of conviction and compassion with regard to homosexuality.
He, Joe, said to me: "Don't ever let any man tell you he is a homosexual. Always correct his vocabulary, because in Christ Jesus that is not who I am. In Christ Jesus I am a new creature."
Just like John Piper is a new creature in Christ, even though he still struggles with the sins of impatience, lust, and pride, Christians who struggle with homosexual desires are not homosexuals. In Christ they are new creatures who struggle with the temptations of homosexuality. And I just want to come along side them and say, "Get that as your paradigm, and let's struggle together in chastity and in purity until we're dead."
Who knows how much healing may come? There is an article I read recently in Christianity Today about Exodus International ministries. It talks about people experiencing true change, healing and victory over homosexual temptations. It doesn't mean that those feelings go away entirely, but many in time are able to enjoy heterosexual lives or lives of contented, chaste singleness despite a history of homosexual sin.
I don't want to create the impression that this is a taboo subject at my church or that I won't be patient and compassionate with those who are struggling with it. They have enough burden of their own.
I just heard of another young man who is suicidally depressed because of who he thinks he is. Everything in me wants to say to him, "I'll stand by you all the way to my grave or your grave, but don't give up this battle and don't think God doesn't have you here, with this struggle, for a purpose that you can find and flourish in."
Bethlehem's Position on Homosexuality
(By John Piper August 6, 2003)
In view of the recent actions of the Supreme Court in regard to Sodomy laws, and the controversy over actively homosexual bishops in the Episcopalian and Anglican denominations, it is important to bring forward again the position of Bethlehem Baptist Church which the Elders established in the fall of 1992. I drafted this statement with the help of Joe Hallet who came out of the homosexual life by the power of Christ and lived faithfully with AIDS, and eventually with his wife, until his death in 1997.
Beliefs about Homosexual Behavior and Ministering to Homosexual Persons
Our affirmation that the Bible is the infallible Word of God with "supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct," and our affirmation that "a Christian should live for the glory of God" include the following six beliefs about heterosexuality and homosexuality:
1. We believe that heterosexuality is God's revealed will for humankind and that, since God is loving, a chaste and faithful expression of this orientation (whether in singleness or in marriage) is the ideal to which God calls all people.
2. We believe that a homosexual orientation is a result of the fall of humanity into a sinful condition that pervades every person. Whatever biological or familial roots of homosexuality may be discovered, we do not believe that these would sanction or excuse homosexual behavior, though they would deepen our compassion and patience for those who are struggling to be free from sexual temptations.
3. We believe there is hope for the person with a homosexual orientation and that Jesus Christ offers a healing alternative in which the power of sin is broken and the person is freed to know and experience his or her true identity in Christ and in the fellowship of his Church.
4. We believe that this freedom is attained through a process which includes recognizing homosexual behavior as sin, renouncing the practice of homosexual behavior, rediscovering healthy, non-erotic friendships with people of the same sex, embracing a moral sexual lifestyle, and in the age to come, rising from the dead with a new body free from every sinful impulse. This process parallels the similar process of sanctification needed in dealing with heterosexual temptations as well. We believe that this freedom comes through faith in Jesus Christ, by the power of his Spirit.
5. We believe that all persons have been created in the image of God and should be accorded human dignity. We believe therefore that hateful, fearful, unconcerned harassment of persons with a homosexual orientation should be repudiated. We believe that respect for persons with a homosexual orientation involves honest, reasoned, nonviolent sharing of facts concerning the immorality and liability of homosexual behavior. On the other hand, endorsing behavior which the Bible disapproves endangers persons and dishonors God.
6. We believe that Christian churches should reach out in love and truth to minister to people touched by homosexuality, and that those who contend Biblically against their own sexual temptation should be patiently assisted in their battle, not ostracized or disdained. However, the more prominent a leadership role or modeling role a person holds in a church or institution of the Conference, the higher will be the expectations for God's ideal of sexual obedience and wholeness. We affirm that both heterosexual and homosexual persons should find help in the church to engage in the Biblical battle against all improper sexual thoughts and behaviors.
Pastor John
Late note: I just noticed Cat also posted something by Dr. Piper — his tirade on the Prosperity Gospel — and all I can say is…Cat and I apparently think very much alike. 
-joebib
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March 27th, 2008 at 8:04 am
I missed Piper’s view on homosexuality, but from the fundamentalist-lean of his theology, I assumed he believed same-sex behavior to be sinful. It’s unfortunate that he seemed to base his perception of homosexuality, in part, on a Christianity Today glamour article on Exodus.
I attended an Exodus-affiliated ministry for two years before choosing to accept myself as a gay Christian. Like the prosperity gospel, ex-gay theology is about promoting half-truths and manipulating believers. Ex-gay groups promote “change” and “healing” in glossy ad campaigns, but never define these terms. When ex-gay participants ask too many questions or become disillusioned with the lack of “change” or “healing”, they are quick to blame the participants’ for lacking faith.
If Piper and others are really interested in hearing about those who ’struggle with homosexual desires’, then check-out www.exgaywatch.com, www.beyondexgay, or www.truthwinsout.org for the other side of the ex-gay story. The reality is that few ex-gay participants experience change and many find the attempt to change more harmful than helpful.
March 27th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Norm!,
Thanks for jumping in on this conversation. I think your perspective is important.
With as much sensitivity as I can muster toward what has obviously been a difficult journey, I’ll say up front that I agree with most everything John Piper says, and this is no exception. Now that you don’t have to guess what my angle is, I have a couple questions for you.
Do you believe there is any sexual conduct that Christians are forbidden from engaging in?
If so, what distinguishes those who have very strong, even irresistable urges to engage in those sexual sins from someone like yourself who, it sounds like, tried to overcome your feelings but decided you could not? (or didn’t need to?)
DOC
March 27th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Liike I asked before. I will ask again. Can I be a born again christian and live a lifestyle as a homosexual?
March 27th, 2008 at 11:35 am
DOC said:
Yikes. I’m sure sexual ethics have been well-argued on various threads and I doubt I have anything useful to add. I believe any conduct that violates a commitment (adultery), takes advantage or harms another person (rape, incest, pedophilia, prostitution, pornography, etc.), or is committed with self-harming intentions (sex addiction, ego-boosting one-night stands, etc.) all fall short of Jesus’ teachings.
The nitty-gritty sexual ethic issues such as premarital sex, divorce, gay/lesbian, and transgendered issues are less theologically black & white to me. Many of the Biblical rules make sense in pre-condom, pre-womens rights, pre-psychology, pre-science world and I do have personal beliefs about these issues. However, I’m not comfortable declaring my understanding of sexual ethics upon all Christians. Lord knows, the various Christian theologies all have different approaches to sexual ethics. Isn’t oral sex common among Christians teens who make abstinence pledges? And isn’t porn use just as common among Christian as non-Christians? And what’s the difference between premarital sex and simply marrying/divorcing multiple spouses? And what about masturbation? [Oh, I know, married people don’t masturbate and unmarried folks only fantasize about their future spouse.
]
I certainly understand the theology that same-sex behavior is Biblically prohibited. After all, I used to deeply hold this belief and devoted much of my daily life, money, and prayers on this belief. If a theologically conservative Christian believes same-sex behavior is sinful, then I fully support their decision to abstain. However, I disagree with the notion that the Bible or Jesus’ make any promises about turning gays into heterosexuals or that hetero-marriage is the only ideal Christian lifestyle choice. (Were not Jesus and many of the disciples single people in a time in which marriage was a cultural necessity?) I also disagree with the implication that those who have a most likely naturally occurring sexual orientation are psychologically, developmentally, or spiritually lacking.
What is of interest to me is that there are many similar themes between prosperity gospel and the ex-gay movements. Both movements imply promises that the Bible does not make. Both movements rely on pandering to their followers’ desperate needs. Both movements are uncomfortable with criticism and quick to blame former members for their failures. And both movements have large numbers of former members who felt burned by their experiences and may be disillusioned with anything religious.
March 28th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Fundamentally, what you are asking, is whether persons who are born again continue to struggle with the sins of the flesh.
Recommended reading: Romans 7.
March 28th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Norm said: However, I disagree with the notion that the Bible or Jesus’ make any promises about turning gays into heterosexuals… Both movements imply promises that the Bible does not make.
Norm, I’m sorry that my comments here are so brief and to the point. I do empathize with your struggles and know other men in your same situation.
Having said this…
What about Paul’s words about many in the Corinthian congregation who used to be homosexual – at least in their acting out? I see words of transformation and hope in the ten key words: “and such WERE some of you; but you were WASHED…”
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
I Corinthians 6:9-11, NKJV
Norm said: However, I disagree with the notion… that hetero-marriage is the only ideal Christian lifestyle choice…
Norm, What about Jesus’ words about human sexuality “from the beginning?”
“And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female. ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”” Mark 10:5-9, NKJV
March 28th, 2008 at 10:42 am
David Mackin said:
The word homosexual and the concepts of sexual orientation and even basic psychology did not exist when the I Corinthian passage was authored, so it’s a major assumption to say homosexuality was being referenced. However, I’ll let Bible and first century scholars sort out what the author was referring to.
Even assuming homosexuality was being referenced in that passage, being “washed” doesn’t necessarily mean a change in sexual orientation or sexual temptation. And in I Corinthians 7 Paul even seems to recommend remaining single like himself:
So, if a gay Christian believes same-sex behavior is immoral, then abstinence and hope for opposite-sex attraction is appropriate. What I disagree with the idea that the Bible promises heterosexuality or that theologically conservative Christians must be heterosexually married.
As for the Mark 10 passage, if you read within context, Jesus was clearing referring to divorce — not necessarily a commandment to be heterosexual:
After all, wasn’t Jesus unmarried and is assumed to be celibate.
March 28th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Honest question (honestly!):
So when someone says, “I’m a gay Christian.” Is that like saying “I’m a red-haired Christian” (which is referencing a physical attribute)? Or is it like saying “I’m a greedy Christian” (which is referencing a moral struggle)?
March 28th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Hi anna,
I know the “gay Christian” label is loaded terminology. I view it similar to being a ‘red-haired Christian’ because I consider it to be an intrinsic attribute. I could more accurately say I’m a Christian-who-happens-to-be-gay. However, I also need to acknowledge the fact that reconciling my sexuality and faith has significantly shaped my spiritual identity.
I know conservative Christians who view homosexuality as a moral struggle don’t quite know how to identify themselves other than saying they’re Christians-who-happen-to-struggle-with-their-sexuality. I have heard a few use “ex-gay” or “formerly gay” as a shorthand descriptions, but these are controversial terms because they imply a completed journey.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Hi Norm,
Being delivered from / healed of homosexuality as the sign of an authentic “born again” experience seems about as absurd to me as the notion that I would be delivered from morbid obesity through rebirth. I struggle with so many things, from gluttony, thoughts of adultery and fornication, coarse language, hatred, to name just a few. After so many years of trying to whip my flesh into obedience, or my mind if you will, I have concluded that I am powerless to change those things and have become all the more grateful for the grace of God in Christ because of my failures.
What I have wondered is, whether these things I struggle with, are in fact my “cross” to bear in this life? Lord knows I can’t hide my struggles from anyone - one look and people know that food has an idolatrous position in my life - and with that one look, many relegate me to the dregs of humanity, the despicable …
Since you said that your homosexuality is something that has “shaped your spiritual identity”, do you consider it a “cross to bear” so to speak? With the way Christians look upon homosexuals, I can’t imagine that anyone would choose that lifestyle - rather - it seems to be assigned to a person, in as much as we can not change the flesh, but are told to crucify it and we never really overcome the flesh until death (Romans 7).
Years ago, I had a funny web site with dozens of parody songs, and in the FAQ page as well as some of the song lyrics, I used some coarse language. My word choices spawned a great debate among some Nazarene visitors, about whether or not I could “swear and still be a Christian” … imagine substituting the name of any sin for “swear” in the preceding statement … the Nazarene’s concluded I was not genuine, but the f’ing Presbyterians were OK with me. Anyway, seems strange to me that others find my personal ‘cross’ (my flesh struggles) to be so offensive to them. How I wish I had more socially acceptable weaknesses … of the sort that a few weeks in rehab would endear me to people …
March 28th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Norm, Thank you very much for sharing your life and struggle with us! Not everyone would have the same amount of courage to do so.
In following this thread, I feel a bit confused by what you are saying. I want to understand more clearly.
This is what I think that I have heard so far:
-You are sexually attracted to men.
-You became a Christian and were told that God wanted to replace your homosexual attractions with heterosexual ones.
-You entered therapy (Exodus International) with an expectation that God would replace your homosexual desires with heterosexual ones.
-Therapy did not remove your homosexual desires nor did it replace them with sexual attraction to females.
-You felt conflicted.
-In order to resolve your inner conflicts, you chose to change your perspective on homosexuality from it being considered sinful, morally wrong, unbiblical, perverted or unnatural to the belief that it is moral, healthy, good, natural, and given as a gift by God just as validly as heterosexuality.
Am I understanding you correctly so far? If not, please let me know…
This next part I am very unclear on, but will be explicit in an attempt better to understand your new position:
-You feel that all gay Christian men, if they cannot find themselves attracted to women, should choose a life of celibacy like Paul and Jesus.
-By a life of celibacy do you mean never having oral, anal, or masturbatory sex with any man, but simply relieving oneself through masturbation and, when necessary, guiltlessly fantasizing about other men because you are not attracted to women.
How did I understand you?
March 28th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
The color of your hair is something you are born with; homosexuality is just something you do.
March 28th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
(Golly, I don’t intend to represent myself as a gay Christian expert, so please know that I can only share my experience. It’s interesting to hear non-gay Christians’ preconceptions. I spend so much time on gay/ex-gay/ex-exgay blogs that I forget that others are unfamiliar with the details of ‘the struggle’.)
Samaritan said:
In the midst of my struggle to reconcile faith and sexuality, I very much considered ‘the struggle’ to be my “burden”. However, it’s been over ten years since I began this journey and I have since made peace with where I am. I’m fortunate in that I have supportive family/friends/workplace/church and live in a progressive Blue state. So, I rarely feel it be a “cross to bear”, but I know what you mean.
“f’ing Presbyterians” LOL! Is that a new denomination?
March 28th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
David Mackin said:
Yes — ever since I can remember.
I was raised in a conservative Christian home and attended fundamentalist and evangelical churches, so I was Christian before I ever considered identifying as gay. I actually first “came out” and confessed my attractions at a Campus Crusade for Christ meeting.
Even in my conservative Christian days, I never saw a Biblical basis for the doctrine that God promises heterosexuality.
I participated in an Exodus-affiliated ministry that offered a program for people struggling with homosexuality. (Exodus is an association and does not directly counsel people. Whether ex-gay groups provide “therapy” depends on one’s definition of therapy).
I entered the ex-gay ministry to learn about homosexuality, but I expected that I would probably remain celibate and single — becoming heterosexual was not my goal. However, hetero-marriage did seem to be glorified as a spiritual blessing and ex-gay leaders personally told me that I had good chance of becoming “sexually whole” since I started the program so young (age 19).
Correct. (Ex-gay groups are very careful to not promise heterosexuality).
That’s an understatement. I felt like a complete failure. The experience left me feeling that I was spiritually, psychologically, sexually, and developmentally lacking.
Actually I was so conflicted that I basically shut-down spiritually and sexually. I avoided delving into religion and did not date for several years. I decided to re-assess what my beliefs and doubts. I also began to learn more about the history of Christianity. Eventually I concluded that sexuality is a relatively minor part of life and God must have bigger concerns than whether someone’s hetero or homo.
Well, I believe Christian men and women who have same-sex attractions and believe same-sex behaviors are immoral should seek a life of celibacy. Certainly, they can hope for heterosexuality, but I don’t believe the Bible promises that ALL believers will be heterosexual.
Personally, I don’t believe homosexuality is incompatible with Christianity, so I do believe gay Christians can pursue gay marriage. Obviously, this places me on the liberal end of the Christianity spectrum.
Yes. [I think it hilarious that some abstinence-pledging teens argue that mutual masturbation, oral and anal sex are not sex. By that standard, many of us are still virgins.
]
Again, I think theologically conservative gay Christians should consider celibacy. And I think most conservative Christians who believe that same-sex behavior is immoral would argue against fantasizing about gay sex as it would be setting one’s mind to impure thoughts — just like conservative heterosexual Christians only fantasize about their future opposite-sex spouses, right?
March 29th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Norm said: Personally, I don’t believe homosexuality is incompatible with Christianity, so I do believe gay Christians can pursue gay marriage. Obviously, this places me on the liberal end of the Christianity spectrum.
Norm, thanks for your question by question responses. It helps me to understand your situation a lot better.
The one question that is still unanswered in my mind, however, is whether you believe that non-marital gay sex is morally okay for you as a Christian. For example, I used to work at Mario’s in the Galleria in downtown Portland and the Galleria management had to shut down the second story public restrooms for several weeks because they were regular meeting places where gays would come and have sex. There were only two public restrooms in the entire building and none in our store.
One day I was minding my own business and using the latrine against the wall and all of of a sudden a gay guy peeked his head out from underneath the stall next to the urinals and tried to catch a peek at my private parts. On another occasion, as I came out of the stall in the other restroom on the third floor, a young gay man fully exposed his “excited self” to me and tried to get me to have sex with him.
Since you said that you “don’t believe homosexuality is incompatible with Christianity,” how do you personally feel about these sorts of gay behaviors outside of the bonds of gay marriage as a follower of Jesus Christ? Do you or would you initiate or participate in them?
March 29th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Hey David,
I’m sorry you had a Larry Craig-ish experiences. Of course, I don’t believe God has called anyone to a life of desperate anonymous sex encounters or meaningless one-night stands. While I do have sympathy for folks stuck in sex addiction, that is no excuse for you to be sexually attacked.
I know premarital sex is a black & white issue for some Christians and a grey area for others. I know some gay Christians who uphold the premarital sex ethic. However, I honestly admit that I don’t think there is harm in two consenting adults who intend on having a meaningful, committed relationship to have safe(r) sex.
March 29th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
A philosophical friend of my daughters waxed long and sincerely about her belief system one evening. She had obviously thought long and hard about these things. As she was talking, I was listening and also asking the Lord if He wanted me to respond.
When she was finished, she asked me what I thought. I said this as kindly and gently as I could: that it was irrelevant what I thought, or even what she believed. The only thing that mattered was what God’s opinion was. Because at the end of all things when we face Him on that Day, only His thoughts will count.
This is true about this subject as well. Whether we believe that homosexuality is a physical attribute or a moral struggle is irrelevant. God has an opinion about the matter, and it is the Holy Spirit’s prerogative to convict one side or the other as He wills.
Also pivotal to this discussion is Scripture. Do we approach the Bible as an accurate account of God’s ways and thoughts? Do we allow Scripture to judge (evaluate and discern) us? Or do we allow ourselves to judge it? And at the end of all things, which view will matter?
March 31st, 2008 at 7:43 am
norm, some men have been helped by the book: Pursuing Sexual Wholeness: How Jesus Heals the Homosexual by Andrew Comiskey and The Broken Image by Leanne Payne. They seem to try to address the deeper emotional/psychological issues of gayness and not just the behaviors or attractions.
relatedly, some men have been helped by experiencing deeper levels of self-acceptance and affirmation: as they have experienced the Father’s profound love for them just as they are, they have felt less need to obtain male affirmation through men who find them attractive;
as some may have experienced deep emotional rejection from their biological fathers (and thus a lack of gender-bonding with them), and possibly other significant males in their lives, they find themselves less in need of acceptance and admiration from homo males as they learn to accept, what might be termed the “softer” parts of their personalities, which are sometimes love for color/design, appreciation for flowers, etc. - the less typical “macho” things in american culture
March 31st, 2008 at 10:11 am
Fundamentally, I am asking CAN I BE BORN AGAIN AND BE A PRACTICING HOMOSEXUAL. Thats a pretty easy question. We have already determined that the bible is up for debate and or interpretation of each individual reader.
Whats sin to you may not be sin to me, correct?
March 31st, 2008 at 10:24 am
I am familiar with Pursuing Sexual Wholeness and The Broken Image; however, it’s been several years since I’ve read these books. I recall that I didn’t relate to either book. Generally speaking, the problem I and many others have had with these authors’ approaches is that they assume that all gay men are not ’sexually whole’ and/or lack masculine identity. I doubt these authors were able to support their controversial assumptions on recent, peer-reviewed research or statistics. It’s more likely that these authors began with an assumption (homosexuality=sinful and/or unhealthy), then used trivial anecdotes and obscure scientific-sounding research to support their preformed conclusions.
This is why I believe ex-gay self-help books, counseling and therapy are so dangerous and harmful. Ex-gay participants are required to doubt their upbringing and psychological, developmental, spiritual wholeness. Ex-gay participants are led to believe that it’s impossible to be both gay/lesbian and psychologically/spiritually healthy. Ultimately, ex-gay promoters’ basic intent is to uphold their religious fundamentalism — regardless of whether their pseudo-psychological theories have any factual basis or cause harm.
That’s not to say we all (gay or straight) should not seek to better ourselves. I’m sure we all have our sexual issues and masculine/feminine doubts. However, it’s very dangerous and defeating to tell someone that their natural attractions (excluding pedophilia, bestiality, fetishes, etc.) are unhealthy and/or demonic.
(BTW, I know few straight men who consider themselves “macho”. Many more straight men appreciate debating color, design, and flowers more than I.)
March 31st, 2008 at 10:36 am
help me understand asked: CAN I BE BORN AGAIN AND BE A PRACTICING HOMOSEXUAL?
help, according to my present understanding, if we take the NT as ethically relevant for today, then, once a man is born again, he needs to separate himself from all homosexual behaviors
—
norm, sorry for the stereotyping above re: design and flowers : )
March 31st, 2008 at 11:05 am
HMU said:
You don’t really think that, so why are you saying it? You’re sounding more trollish every day!
March 31st, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Do you think that? Do you think that bible is open to personal interpretation by each individual reader? I am not a troll. I am here to stay. Help me understand.
March 31st, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Get down with your bad self, anna!
(Note to self…never make anna mad)
I don't mind feeding this troll…
Have we? I don't think so. I would, however, make this observation to those who do hold to this view you describe… Since they have made "sin" subjective to this or that sliding scale, they have effectively insulated themselves from any prohibition against — as well as any consequences for — any and all behavior.
If only God had consulted with these sages ahead of time, He could have saved Himself a lot of time and trouble writing all those injunctions against murder, stealing, witchcraft, lying, disobeying parents, sodomy, having false balances, cursing, etc.
The very reason I first came on this blog some months ago was in reaction to those who, through rationalization and compromise, sought to redefine — and thus water down — the orthodox position of the Church of Jesus throughout history concerning the authority of the Scriptures. A practice which, despite all efforts to the contrary, inexorably leads one down the slippery slope of subjectivism.
After which point nothing is sacred and secure, and virtually everything becomes fair play for ultimate rejection, whether it be the nature of God, the Deity of Christ, the concepts of justification by faith and substitutionary atonement, or even one's definition of sin.
Thus, it appears to me these verses continue to be fulfilled in our day:
-joe
March 31st, 2008 at 12:29 pm
I am glad you do not mind feeding the troll. Actually, I see myslef more like a person out fishing
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I have been fascinated by this blog for the last year or so. I am trying to find out what people think. What pushes their buttons. Stuff like that. I have learned and grown and have been challenged by many. Though, I have just started to post. I personally believe that bible is 100% the revelation of God to mankind. I believe it is not open to debate. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe that you must repent of your sins and follow Jesus Christ.
What I am challenging in my own mind:
1. Salvation-I have just recently heard of something called one handed salvation. I have always been taught that God reaches for us and we have the free will to choose to reach to him.
2. The way the local church does things
3. Authority of pastors
4. Church planting
and a few other things.
Sorry Anna, didnt mean to get you going
March 31st, 2008 at 2:44 pm
A1) No. Of course, my definition of “born again” probably differs from yours. I do not consider a person to be “born again” who simply recites the sinners prayer (confesses with their mouth “Jesus as Lord”) and has received only the water baptism (John’s baptism). While that person is “saved” according to scripture, it is a ‘future’ promise “thou shalt be saved” (when the time comes for judgment). Confession and water baptism marks a person for redemption … but IMO, being “born again” is different than being “saved” as it refers to spiritual re-birth by the power of God which according to scripture, results in a totally new creation / creature as scripture says in (2 Cor. 5:17) …
However, I suspect no 2 people on this blog would agree about what “born again” means, or when being “born again” occurs. I just personally do not think to be “saved” or “marked for redemption” is the same as being “born again” … it is my observation that believer’s use those terms interchangeably, while failing to notice the differences in scripture AND failing to note that salvation is a life-long process and NOT a one time decisive event … especially since according to Paul salvation can be lost …
I am also undecided whether Jesus “baptism with the Holy Spirit” which John the baptist referred to (”He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit (for re-birth) and with fire (for purification)”) is synonymous with the “born again” experience that Jesus spoke of to Nicodemus … I’m sure one of the BT scholars can set me straight on that (grin) … it is my belief, that a true spiritual re-birth, which births a new creation and puts away the old man (carnal nature), would by definition do away with homosexuality - after all, the homosexuality is part of the old carnal nature and has no place in the “new creation” … (refer to 2 Cor. 5:17) … if the old sinful / carnal man with sinful tendencies is NOT put away, then there is no new creature and all things are not in fact new, right? (Joebib is gonna torch me for my grammar) …
Perhaps you could answer a question for me - do you think homosexuality will be practiced in the Father’s kingdom? Or in ‘heaven’ if you will? If not, then does that mean the Father heals / delivers homosexuals of that behavior upon entry to the Father’s kingdom?
A2) We can debate the bible ad nauseum. But our opinions don’t mean squat. It’s meaning isn’t really up for debate or interpretation … all we do in discussing it amongst ourselves is to expose our ignorance.
The ONLY qualified judge of the Word, is the author of the Word, and that’s God.
A3) Again, it doesn’t matter what you and I define (or re-define) as sin. What’s God say?
Sam
March 31st, 2008 at 2:52 pm
I will answer the question you asked: No I do not think homosexuality will be practiced in heaven. Just so we are clear. I am not a homosexual.
I believe homosexuality is a sin of choice no different then fornication, stealing etc etc etc.
March 31st, 2008 at 3:48 pm
HMU, sorry if I mistook your sarcasm for trolling. From what you had previously written, I didn’t think you really believed we could all interpret the Bible however we please.
As for your questions above, I think most people refer to “one-handed salvation” as Calvinism. And the other questions… they could keep us going for a long, long time!
April 1st, 2008 at 2:34 am
Not at all, sammy.
Since I’ve turned 50, my grammar sucks, too. Neither did anyone ever tell me reverting to teenage angst and adolescent clumsiness was going to be part of the deal, either.
And don’t even get me started on trying to clearly express — much less type — what I’m thinking.
-joe
April 1st, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Ya, I was being a bit sarcastic.
I am fascinated by this one-handed salvation thought. The way I was born again or came to christ was similiar to saul of tarsus-minus the whole blindness thing. Makes me scratch my head a bit.
April 1st, 2008 at 1:47 pm
I think you’re touching on the entire Calvinism/Arminiansm debate. Do we take God’s hand after He offers it, or does He simply reach down and grab us?
This debate has gone on for centuries because there is scripture that suggests both views and I can think of annecdotes that seem to suggest both are possible. On the one hand, God is sovereign and able to turn the hearts of kings and save whomever He wants. On the other hand, we’ve been given a free will and the opportunity to serve ourselves rather than the creator.
Those two scenarios seem irreconcileable and I don’t have a good answer for it. Somehow, they are both true. It’s such a struggle because it’s very difficult for us to imagine that a good God, who is capable of saving everyone, would allow any to perish. At the same time, how can I respect, much less love, a God who turns a blind eye to evil?
One thing I know for sure, we won’t resolve this issue here.