Kenneth Copeland Ministries is fighting back against Senator Grassley's investigation. In a letter responding to the investigation, Copeland's ministry states:
"The church is deeply concerned that the information Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) is seeking could be used to subject the church and its members to public stigma, scorn, and obloquy,"
Yeah, I had too look up it up too; "obluquy" means "censure or blame".
Anyway, we'll see how Senator Grassley responds. It doesn't appear that Copeland is getting much help from other ministries.
"We don't think it's the best approach to wrap yourself in the First Amendment," Kenneth A. Behr, president of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA) told Cybercast News Service. "We believe that financial transparency is one of the cornerstones of financial integrity."
It's been fun to watch this play out. My guess is that the IRS is preparing a lengthy audit of all of the churches under Grassley's investiation. And we'll likely see the results of those audits sometime in 2009.
There are two certainties in life, Death and Taxes. And while Christ cheated Death, he still couldn't get past Taxes. I think Kenneth is screwed.
Matthew 22:21 – Give to Caeser what is Caeser's, and to God what is God's.
Actually, I think Matt 27:12 is more appropriate “But when the leading priests and the elders made their accusations against him, Jesus remained silent. “Don’t you hear all these charges they are bringing against you?” Pilate demanded. But Jesus made no response to any of the charges, much to the governor’s surprise.”
Matt 22:21 implies there is some sort of Tax Evasion… which Churches… yes, even the ones we don’t like are not required by law to pay.
The ECFA making this sort of comment, is like Disney saying every child should own a Mickey Mouse doll. It is to be expected from an organization that exists and makes their money by examining ministries who use their services.
Doctrinally the ECFA and Grassley have disagreements with the 6 Pentecostal ministries being investigated. When being persecuted because of your faith, it is fair to say that the appropriate action is to remain silent and not participate.
Well, that's the issue. When the church is being run like a corporation, then I think they might as well pay taxes.
And just because you are a church, doesn't mean you don't have to abide by non-profit tax laws.
Starbucks can't just call itself a Church of Coffee-drinkers, and then avoid paying taxes.
The reason why Copeland is asking for IRS audit is because he is following the non-profit tax laws according to the IRS.
He just doesn’t want to follow some arbitrary law invented by his doctrinal opponents after the fact.
Starbucks may not be able to, but Oprah just did.
Oh, please. Copeland is not being persecuted because of his faith. This is not a doctrinal issue. It is a legal issue. He is being investigated because of accusations of violating the tax-exempt provisions.
To use Jesus’ silence during His trial as an example is not an accurate analogy.
I, for one, am glad there is something that will make him shut up.
OK,
Kenneth was reportedly using his non-profit employees to help out at his for profit ranch. This is a violation of the 503 c tax code.
Bringing this back home. It would be like someone using their non-profit secretaries to compile the notes from the last years worth of sermons and then publishing it as a book and personally taking in revenues from that book through a corporate or a sole proprietary tax structure.
Both are a big, huge, Jabba the Hut sized no-nos, and should be investigated. Perhaps our own state government (Mrs Minnis) should look around the Portland area and see if their might be any shabbily painted domes that this is happening under.
If Copeland is not being persecuted for his faith, then why have only pentecostal ministries been targeted?
If this were about using non-profit secretaries to compile sermon notes then I am sure Rick Warren and hundreds of other non-pentecostal ministries would be worth taking a look at too? I have a friend who used to work for Franklin Graham and he used to have to do personal stuff for him and was on the ministry payroll. Why only pentecostals? Because they are easy targets and the media loves to go after them whether guilty or not.
Personally, I think this is why Copeland has asked for the IRS route. Because when the IRS rules he is clean and has followed all the laws it gives Grassley less ammunition to say he isn’t.
I think the point of what Copeland is doing is being missed here. He and his attorneys believe that he is following the current tax laws that apply to Churches. (which are different from other nonprofits) Obviously Sen Grassley has a different point of view. Whether you agree with Copeland’s doctrine or not you have to admire someone who is willing to stand up for what they believe is right. If all that Sen Grassley was after was to find out if there is any misuse of funds all he would have to do is ask the IRS to conduct an audit. But since he chose instead to go to the media before even talking to the Churches I believe there is more to his investigation. I also believe that if Sen. Grassley had any real evidence of wrongdoing on the part of any of the Churches he would have already gotten the IRS or justice department involved. So what he is hoping for is that the media attention will cause donations to go down so the Churches will comply when they do not have to.
By his asking for an IRS audit Copeland has shown that he is willing to obey the law and apparently not afraid of what the audit will find. He is just not willing to allow legally private information to be made public just because a Senator asks it.
If you or the Senator do not like the tax laws then work to change them. Do not attack someone just because they will not give up their right to follow the law.
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Simple. If Rick Warren/Franklin Graham/et al. are abusing their 503c status, there have, as of yet, been no public allegations of it with evidence to corroborate it. The pastors that Senator Grassley targeted all have had numerous public allegations from former members/secretaries/etc. all with at least some evidence to back it up. Kenneth Copeland, of all those targeted, has had the most public exposés with HUGE piles of evidence about his finances.
You can say that you believe Copeland is going the IRS route because he’s “clean” by the IRS’ rules, but the simple fact of the matter is that you’d have to have been living under a pretty big rock to not already know that Copeland’s got a lot to cover up financially. And it’s quite simply a stall tactic by his legal team while they try and figure out a way to get him out of this mess without his public reputation being utterly destroyed.
For these prosperity preachers, their book sales/donations/tv spots/conference invites (aka income) is in direct correlation to their reputation, therefore Mr. Copeland must do all that he can to protect his reputation, as it is the most valuable thing he has.
And if you believe that his proper response to such “injustice” is the remain silent, then why do you feel the need to defend the man?
If he has truly done nothing to violate the 503c rules, then he’d really have nothing to worry about. Truth requires no concessions and stands on its own. If truth is on his side, he has nothing to be afraid of.
Suppose he is being “persecuted.” I could be mistaken, but I believe the Biblical instruction when it comes to persecution is to endure it. So, what is he afraid of? Oh yeah, that’s right, being publicly exposed and his kingdom taking a shot. Sure, it won’t crumble his kingdom, nor destroy him, but it could deal a pretty little blow.
eleytheria:What HUGE piles of evidence are you refering to? In all the reports I have seen I have not seen one bit of real evidence only hear say. Just because you don’t like the way something looks does not make it wrong.
Uh, no. Standing up for your personal wealth, doesn’t really impress me.
eleytheria: I’m with phredone on this one. What “public exposes of HUGE piles of evidence”? I’ve read all the documents available and seen the media stories, but the media stories about misuse of funds appear hearsay at this point. Are you acquainted with the “exposers” and have you intimate knowledge of the inner workings of Copeland’s church? It appears to me that if the church requested an IRS church tax inquiry they certainly would have to know what they’d be up against. They’d have know that their records are in great shape to even think about doing that.
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If Copeland was truly just interested in his own wealth it would have been easier to just comply with the Sen. and take a fine if found in the wrong. By standing up for what he believes don’t you think he risks much greater penalty if found in the wrong by a Sen. who is mad at being defied publicly and can influence the severity of any penalities?
If not money, then what is he standing up for?
Regardless of whether or not you believe either party is in the right, the bottom line is this: If Copeland’s finances are 100% legal, then he has nothing to fear from fiscal transparency. In fact, it would do the reputation of the Church a whole lot of good if he could show all the good he is doing with the money by funneling those finances to actual ministries and other charities. If Churches really are using money to make a positive impact both local and globally, then it can only benefit their cause by making that information public. Copeland’s efforts only cast doubt on his integrity and the value of contributing to his ministry. Even if he is right, he only hurts his reputation by acting this way.
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Best comment in this thread so far. LOL
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I know it is hard to believe in this day and age but perhaps he is standing on principle. It is obvious that Copeland and his attorneys believe that under current tax law Sen. Grassley does not have legal standing to require the Churches turn over the info he wants. If this is the case how could he comply without compromising his priciple?
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What principle? The right to say “Nyah nyah you can’t make me!”? How does that benefit the Church or the cause of Christ?
Conversely, the Senator is fighting for the principle of churches being fiscally accountable and not defrauding their contributors. The
Phredone, I have to agree with you throughout this discussion. I support Copeland in his belief that he is standing on his rights granted by the Constitution. The senator should not be allowed this kind of request for investigation. There is a group set up to handle these types of issues, and he should follow the protocol for these 6 ministries as he would any other private organization. Good read – get you thinking…
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13003
Exactly, what Constitutional right is this? The right not to pay taxes. Because, I don’t think that’s in there.
Senator Grassley is also going after other non-profit groups that he believes are not following the appropriate tax laws. They include Harvard and Yale. And also the Red Cross.
The Harvard debate is actually rather interesting. Harvard receives something like 50 million dollars a year in donations from Alumni. Yet, they only spend a fraction of that money on improving the school. Grassley got wind of this, sent Harvard a letter asking what they do with all the money they received, and suddenly now Harvard is significantly increasing their financial aid to students.
So, it’s not just about Religion.
lol Jaba the hut size no no — I like you sola fide
I want every church who thinks its necessary to have a huge, mormon like shrine with the lifestyle included to investigated and eventually closed down if possible.
It’s people and places like these that leave FAT question marks in billions of peoples minds.
If you have a problem with this you are probably greedy yourself or under one of these types of churches magical spells for whatever reason (cute girls, cool house parties, etc).
I don’t claim to be the sharpest tool in the shed, but after reading the bible over and over you begin to wonder what book they are teaching out of OR how did you draw that conclusion from that scripture.
So many people have turned from their faith due to greed-driven churches who ask for you money and then say something like — We didn’t force you to give, tithe, or buy these books. We just were hoping that our mind control, intimidation, and extreme “spiritual” vibe would move you in the spirit to give us as much money as possible.
I remember in one city church conference they were demanding that everyone hold their money up in the air for nearly a minute. Imagine sitting around all of your friends who are holding up fives and tens.
Is it so hard to see the life changing goodness that would come from FUNDING YOUR OWN MINISTRY.
How does it cost millions of dollars to open your mouth and share the good, REAL news…..
If you fund your own ministry it leaves 0% room for doubt in the minds of your people.
After all, the bible says that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.
What better way to show the world that you don’t love money? Give yours away and stop asking for it right?
Why would you be concerned with building a huge, ineffective kingdom here on earth by squeezing every last drop out of people (out of faith of course that you will do the “holy” thing with their money).
People don’t like to have their intelligence insulted.
Why not sell your lexus, take the 30,000, and buy food, a boombox, and a large church van and feed the homeless or have church outdoors?
OR sell the multi-million dollar campus and do something that will make the whole world wonder WHAT HAS GOTTEN IN TO YOU.
by the way — instead of tithing to your local church — feed the homeless downtown. The need down there is VERY great right now. They are offerring little help for couples and many are being turned away from aid. With the rising cost of food and a weary economy, these people are really hurting.
A case of like 12 cup-o-noodles costs like 4 bucks at winco. They also really need fresh, clean socks and GLOVES.
The hands and the feet are the most miserable during cold weather.
homeless people ARE NOT SCARY, demon possessed, or out to harm you — I PROMISE. Once they see that you are there to help, you will have gained many new friends. Speak with confidence and show NO FEAR and you will have found true life in helping others.
If you are nervous, do it in broad daylight where there are lots of people around so you can scream for help if anything happens (which it won’t).
What these people need more than food or warmth is to see that at least ONE person cares enough to go down and help them. They are out there because of a greedy selfish world — show them there are a few good soliders left.
Peace.
[Comment ID #32315 Will Be Quoted Here] There are no provisions in the Constitution for tax exempt status but there are tax laws, some written by Sen. Grassley in the 80′s, that allow Churches their tax exempt status. You can’t compare Churches and other 501c3 nonprofits as the tax laws are different.
I think you may be wrong here. I just checked the tax guide for churches on the IRS web site here: http://www.irs.gov/charities/churches/index.html
According to page 3 of the guide, the law makes Churches exempt from taxes as a special case, but they must still follow the same laws as other 503c organizations. In many cases, churches will still apply for 503c status to assure their congregants that they are compliant with tax law and to provide those who donate the ability to deduct their donations. That doesn’t mean that churches play by different rules, it just means they get the tax-exempt status by default without having to jump through the hoops of the application process.
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He originally answered the questions that had to do with finance. He stopped answering when the Senate started asking for partner information, past TV guests, and stuff like that.
People don’t have to give to his ministry if they don’t want. But if they do decide to give to his ministry they shouldn’t feel as though they are being put into a position were the government might go after them.
Over 80,000,000 Americans come from a Pentecostal/Charismatic background and believe that God does want them to prosper not just spiritually, but in all areas of their life. You may not agree with this and obviously Sen. Grassley doesn’t, but what gives him the right to decide for those who do agree that this is an invalid belief and therefore even though Copeland has abided by the law he should be forced to be to have a special investigation that regardless of guilt or not is likely to destroy the ministry.
The people who have accused Copeland are theological opponents who according to their own former members are a Cultish and unethical. http://www.dallascult.com/
Like I said above, Copeland Ministries is just one non-profit in a long line of non-profits that Grassley has gone after. Grassley has gone after hospitals, museums, charities, schools, and churches. It’s the tax-exempt policy that concerns Grassley, not the “Prosperity Doctrine”.
But look, Copeland doesn’t have to respond to Grassley’s letter. However, if Grassley subpoena’s him, he’s going to have to respond and respond in the Senate. And frankly, I think it’s better just to respond to the letter than risk going in front of the Senator and testifying under oath to all your financing.
But that’s just me. We’ll see.
Mike, you mention a few things that seem to shift focus here.
First, I don’t believe Copeland has answered any questions at all by Grassley, in fact he’s failed to comply at all with any requests. Even more, those questions haven’t been asked as far as I can tell. Prove me wrong?
If people knowingly give to a ministry that they know is fraudulent, then they should fear the government. But the idea that government inspection will scare away donations is more of what Copeland and company are afraid of, because they don’t want people to know what he’s really doing with their money. If they are simply giving it to those with real need, then no investigation will stop that, in fact it might encourage people to give more.
Stop making up statistics about what people believe. The Prosperity Gospel is a fairly new “doctrine” and I highly doubt that the majority of all Protestants believe it.
If a senate investigation destroys a ministry, then it must not be a very good one to begin with. Houses built on sand… But again, this has nothing to do with beliefs, but with the possible illegal use of church funds.
So opponents of Copeland accuse him of being a cult? Or the people accusing him are former cult members? Which is it? Never mind, the argument is a red herring. Either Copeland is an honest citizen or he is a crook. Shifting focus to others is a terrible tactic.
Lol… FICM sounds like you are the ones making up statistics. There is no evidence of fraud.
Copeland was one of the first to respond originally:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071219/30563_Grassley_Still_Waiting_on_Preachers_Under_Financial_Scrutiny.htm
80,000,000 pentecostal/charismatics
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=287
Prosperity doctrine has been around for longer than the “sinners prayer”
http://talkingpentecostalism.blogspot.com/2008/04/origin-of-prosperity-doctrine-in.html
The complaints and evidence brought to Sen. Grassley were brought by the Trinity Foundation. A group that has been accused of being a cult and using deception and unethical tactics to take out theological opponents. Not a tactic to shift focus, just a point to that the evidence brought against these organizations were brought by people who disagree with their theology. This is like a Muslim complaining about a Jewish synagogue.
PS: if there is Fraud, I am sure the IRS will find it… I dare you to ask them for an audit.
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I’m no supporter of the practices of the American media, but numerous testimonies of eyewitnesses about the misappropriation of non-profit employees and documents showing the misuse of ministry jets for personal use is plenty for Senator Grassley to use as probable cause to launch an investigation.
If Mr. Copeland truly is innocent of these allegations, then wouldn’t he, of all people, want to clear it up?
I’m sorry, but why is it so hard for you to understand that Senator Grassley does not care about their doctrinal beliefs? If, as you claim, an investigation into his finances will destroy his ministry, then doesn’t that prove once and for all that his ministry is (was) based not on the Bible, but on money? What was it Jesus said? Oh yeah, he said something about God OR mammon, not God and mammon.
If he was investigated and proven innocent, I’d be willing to bet $20 that he would parade it around as proof of his being singled-out for persecution by the corrupt American government. Which would not destroy his ministry, but instead, more than likely, bring great increase to it.
And according to Copeland former inner members, his church is cultish and unethical. Yet that’s a valid criticism of his opponents and not of him because…
Lastly, I would like to thank you for this article, as it goes so far as to state that the prosperity doctrine has roots in the Social Darwinism movement of the 19th century, something I find amazingly ironic. As a whole, though, the article is simply propaganda.
There is no doubt that many Non-profits have abused the system. I am sure the IRS will do due diligense especcially with the Senate looking over their shoulder.
I have not seen any reports from former KCM employee’s that say he has done anything unethical. The only reports I’ve seen have been from outside critics of his ministry and doctrinal opponents.
The reason why it is hard to believe that it is not about doctrine is because all ministries targeted are pentecostal. Not one non-pentecostal ministry is being looked at.
eleytheria, you keeping insisting that there is evidence of wrongdoing but you keeping bring up the same things that are based on conjecture or hear say with no real proof. If you were Sen Grassley and you had someone who was publicly defying you and some would say picking a fight with you and you had actual evidence of any kind even just enough to get a warrant to look for further evidence wouldn’t you use it?
As far as being innocent, since Copeland obviously believes the Church is innocent in this country you don’t have to prove anything. It is the Senator who has to provide proof of guilt.
Just out of curiousity, Mike & Phredone, what is your connection to the Copeland Ministry?
What if I am Kenneth Copeland? Does it make anything I have said any more or less my opinion just like everything else said here is someone else’s opinion?
You may be Kenneth Copeland judging by the way you avoid answering questions.
Some opinions are more valid than others…the more we know about you, the better we can judge your worth to this blog.
How is one opinion of more value?
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I am sorry I thought that this was a blog open to anyone who wanted to chime in. I did not realize I needed to be judged worthy by your Eminence. Also for future reference do I need to have the same opinion as you to be worthy or can I dare to offer dissent? Thanks for alerting me to my faux pas. I humbly await your judgement.
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James:
I don’t know you personally, but I do know you because of your heart.
I am one of those people involved in a ministry of feeding, clothing and loving those “forsaken ” drug addicts and unwanted homeless dregs of our society.
I will say this about that. There is little else in this society that brings me more pleasure than to see one of these people smile with a greatful heart because they have something to eat ( sometimes I hear, “I am so starved. I haven’t eaten in two days”) and some clean clothes to change in to. Sometimes when I see a big smile of graditude, I get this sense that there is a big smile on the face of our Lord too because of what we are doing for this segment of HIS family.
Diverting some or all of that tithe money to help care for the poor is one of the most sensible and pure biblical principles ever brought up on this blog. I have been practicing this, in part, because I do also enjoy supporting my church, for quite a while now. Furthermore, I don’t give a rip what the Pastor thinks or says abouy tithing to the Church first.
I have to wonder (lol) if the Lord will take away my prosperty and condem me to hell because of my diverting money from kingdom building preachers and actually doing as He instructed in giving to care for people who truely need it. Some preachers I’ve heard over the years would certainly condem my actions. They want theirs first, then if there is anything left they want that too, under the guise of “and Offerings”
Okay, this is not enough of this for now, but out of courtesy for this blog and its readers I won’t belabor this topic any further for now.
Anyone else have any comments or thoughts regarding this?
Thanks James for your post.
Reformed you make me laugh out loud! As I always say if
they aren’t doing anything wrong than they have nothing to hide.
Its said it takes a Senator in Washington to force these prosperity types
to do the right things.
Reminds me of a song from the BeeGee’s
Your jive talking ….. you’re telling me lies……
sing it boys!
As a former reporter I’ve found numerous links the Senator has to
Christians. If you want to talk about the media lets look at the hype some
have tried to spin about him ‘going after these poor folk’ Grassley is linked to the Christian Fellowship group there in DC. Personally I think they took an oath to do something about these out of control groups and its about time somebody did.
Did it occur to you Mike that maybe God is allowing them to be investigated?
And you are welcome here –just know you have to have an answer for what you believe.
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What do you mean by out of control group? Is there a difference between out of control activities and illegal activities?
Mike, thanks for responding. However, call me cynical but I still have issues with your viewpoint, but you’re free to your opinion.
First off, Grassley was one of the first to respond, but that’s all he did. His response was, “No, we’re not going to participate.” He has yet to release any info.
Second the study by the Barna group you quoted shows that 80 million Americans are considered Protestant. However, I find their research flimsy at best. As a working professional in market research, their brief 1,000 person sample by phone cannot possibly extrapolate such a encompassing conclusion. And as the recent elections have shown, a lot of times the polls are simply wrong. Still, I understand your argument that one religious group is finger-pointing at another. But it’s irrelevant to the case, since the point is to determine whether churches are complying with tax law. Labeling Copeland a victim of cult accusations doesn’t help his case.
Finally, asking people here to show “proof” about Copeland’s wrongdoings is a bit unfair. Obviously, we are Federal prosecutors or IRS agents. That’s their job.
But, the primary accusations of wrongdoing are actually coming from within Copeland’s ministry and those who have worked for him.
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa071107_mo_prayerrequests.1eb51b6a4.html
That’s not outsiders crying foul, that’s people who know him who are exposing his deeds for what they are. You can’t shift the focus to another group when people on the inside are the ones blowing the whistle.
Lastly, why are you so keen on defending him? As I’ve already asked before, what is to be gained by rebuffing Grassley? As others have stated, I think he’s made a huge mistake that could end up putting him under investigation and under oath. The kinds of things that lead to prison time if you’re found guilty.
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As I recall in this report the only thing Kenneth Copeland was accused of by former employees was not personally reading all the mail that was sent to the Church. Not one thing about financial misconduct. It is outsiders who are making accusations.
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Did you use dictionary.com’s thesaurus!?! I love it too!!!
Sarcasm and big words usually just leave me feeling impressed with myself. Hows it working out for you?
This is just one report. You don’t have to google much to see that Copeland has been accused of several financial misdealings, including abandoning a housing project for the poor which left many people in debt and unpaid, and the frequent use of a $20 million jet for personal vacations when he promised it would be used for ministry purposes only. That $20 million could have paid for 10 housing projects.
Seriously, if you’re unwilling to hear or read about the alleged misdeeds of Copeland & Co., then you’re just being stubborn. The evidence is there and whether anyone can prove it all to your personal satisfaction is beside point. The damage to the reputation of Christ and the Church is terrible.
The truth is unafraid of the light.
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What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? As you say Copeland has been accused but I have never seen any thing about being found guilty of anything? Again you say the evidence is there but you give no evidence. I don’t know what the truth is in the situation but I don’t know why so many people want to assume guilt before all the facts are in.
As to the housing project: i am sure i have seen the same news report you have and it looked to me as Copeland was trying to do something to help poor people that did not work out. The facts of what really happened were not presented just one side of the story.
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James I am sorry that I have offended you or anyone else. I admit that in a moment of weakness I allowed the old man to rise up and lash out. For this I repent and ask for forgiveness.
Has the state of the education system gotten so bad that what I wrote appears to have needed the use of a thesaurus? I admit I am a poor speller and had to look up the spelling of some words but the vocabulary is from a public school education.
The ones who will be hurt the worst when all the evidence is out on the table for all to see will be the faith/prosperity types. I almost feel sorry for the sheep–as they are going to be shaken again.
The best evidence so far has been the arial photos of the Copeland Compound/ or is that church. -with not just 1 jet but many planes, a large landing strip and countless vehicles. We won’t even get into the 1 Billon Dollar -money laundering suit underway at ORU that involves their ministry.
Just looking at history its always the ‘insiders’ who turn in the pivotal information to the Senate Committees. How long will it take for them to read the story of Brutus and Caesar?
How about the Enron story–they imploded on each other and the leaders couldn’t get off the Titanic fast enough when the money started running out. Who was left holding the bag and packing up their cubicles on the last day
with 20 minutes to evacuate–the little worker bees.
I say let it all come out –it is better to investigate and know the truth after all isn’t it our religion that says ‘if you know the truth -the truth will set you free.
Kenneth Copeland Ministries gets an “F” from MinistryWatch.org. See http://ministrywatch.org/mw2.1/F_FullRpt.asp?EIN=751300831
It’s one thing not to respond to a senate investigation, but I have a lot of trouble with the ministry not being open about finances with the brethren.
With Jesus our example, He lived under the proverbial microscope. So where Kenneth’s basic message (I first heard a tape of his in the late 70′s) is to do and believe as Jesus did, I don’t understand why unreserved honesty and transparency isn’t the standard for Kenneth’s behavior.
It has also rather bothered me, the teachings of Jesus concerning our interface with government officials … for example, if a soldier (a gov’t representative) presses you into service to carry his armament one mile, go with him two. If someone sues you for your coat, give him your shirt as well … (OK, I paraphrase) … why does Jesus instruct us in that way? To be a blessing to the gov’t / man who sues you that they might be won to Jesus.
The other thing that bothers me is, how often we have heard from the faith and prosperity preachers that they “stand on the Word of God alone” – yet when the gov’t officials come a knocking, no longer do they “stand on the word of God” (which by the way tells them how they should respond), instead, they HIDE behind man’s law. I find that incredibly hypocritical.
I wonder if he, or his followers, realize just how quickly he changes his tune – from what he preaches to his followers about how to conduct their affairs in the world by the “word of God” – to responding in the way of the world when his chance to DO THE WORD he’s been preaching for nearly 40 years presents itself.
The word “double minded” comes to mind – which is so interesting to me – as it was “the double minded man” that I heard Ken preach about for the first time – on one of his tapes, some 30 years ago.
Sam
Anybody who is defending these idiots actions is just buying into an argument that is without merit. Christian use freedom of expression when its convenient for them. However, these same people who argue that the government has no right to check the books of these ministries are also the same people who bash gays for holding marches and ralleys in public and block people from entering abortion clinics. Can’t have it both ways. Abide by the rules, show em your books and if your clean nothing will happen. Sounds to me like Copeland has a lot to hide…..especially when he’s taking a 10 million dollar jet all over the world for “ministry” but the flight log shows him stopping in Fiji for 10 days…not a whole lot of ministry going on there. Or how about Joyce Meyers, who owns a million dollar mansion in Beverly Hills that is currently sitting vacant? Hmmm real good use of tithe money right?
Ex-city –i always love your info. Dear Joyce has a house in Beverly Hills too?
Now where did I read all about that –oh yes on the Tulsa World.
when it went into detail about how a Beverly Hills mansion was purchased and
then remodeled for Oral Roberts — and paid for with endowment money!
So are they starting a compound there too? I mean really folks–why is the house sitting vacant? Would love to know your sources.
They are so onto all of them down there. Now ‘Thats Entertainment!’
Intellectually Speaking said:
Ya, isn’t it rich? Christianity today has turned into a full blown CIRCUS!
Well, we have the typical Word of Faith and/or Mega Charasmania Church Brand to thank for that. It makes us all look like a bunch of buffoons when lumped into the same pot. And many people would just as soon lump us in with them than research it out…
That’s why the more we speak out against the money-hungry-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing types, the better chance we have of letting the world know that Jesus just isn’t like what they are seeing lately. For those who care enough to listen or investigate.
Thanks Intellectually, I do my best. God rescued me from corrupt system during my teen years and I have had time in college and law school to reflect on what went on there. I am still shocked that I let people try to control my life – tell me who to date, where to go to college, what music to listen to, how to dress, etc. I feel really sad for my friends who are still apart of that system, and I am doing what I can to bring light to the problems.
Anyway, on ministrywatch.com they have a video of an ABC 20/20 special done on Christian leaders abusing the system and using other peoples money to live rich lavish lives…all under the name of “ministry” (yeah right). Click the link below and scroll down to the video. Click on it and watch. You will be blow away by what you see. Enjoy.
http://ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/H_Home.asp
And on a good note, here are some ministries actually doing good with the money people give them:
http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/pdf/SL_Feb08.pdf
Let’s just hope KC doesn’t end up on golf courses looking for the culprit in all this.. OJ has been looking for years for a substitute murderer and never found one..
Copeland has every right to defend what he thinks is right and that’s calling for a proper IRS investigation. If Grassley had called for this to begin with, it would have saved a lot of trouble. Other Christian leaders that recognize the future implications of this investigation have banded behind Copleand and supporting him.
Kenneth Copeland Ministries said: “The church is deeply concerned that the information Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) is seeking could be used to subject the church and its members to public stigma, scorn, and obloquy,”
KC, “the church is deeply concerned? ” – what church? your TV viewers or do you have a Sunday morning service that you call church?
KC, you missed the point or you haven’t missed it and you’re playing dodge ball: public stigma, scorn and obloquy is what those who mishandle people’s money should receive so that they don’t every do it again
I appreciate the quote from the ECFA – not all Evangelical churches are members; i think that it might reveal something about how these churches are doing business once you know the ECFA’s standards
This is a quote from KC. I think I know what he’s saying, but am still grasping:
“…tithing is not the same as investing in the gospel. Tithing is an investment in God. It is the part of your income that belongs to Him and goes directly to Him.” Kenneth Copeland, The Laws of Prosperity, Harrison House, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1974, p. 63
Wow if he can parlay that investing in God means buying cattle for his own purposes, plane upon plane landing at the landing strip –i mean ministry compound than he should have no trouble wowing the Senate Finance Committe.
Where’s Tom Delay and Ed Buckham when you need them?!
Need more information-than read Tulsa World News under the ORU Scandal.
It will fill you in on who was on their board–oh yea Kenneth Copeland and later his son in law. What is being investigated there is the billion dollar money laundering where people like their friends supposedly wrote checks back and forth to each other which they could pocket tax free.
See the articles and more importantly the comments after each article
that are written by insiders!