The apostles of Christ warn us that self-deception is a very real possibility even for Christians (Galatians 6:3,7; James 1:16,26; I Timothy 2:14; 2 Timothy 3:13). What is self-deception? How can a true believer actually be deceived? In our discussions of the Prosperity Doctrine and the Mandatory Tithe, I have noticed that both sides of these issues will, at times, accuse the other side of "being deceived." Here is a case in point:
Both Craig and C.T.P. left The City Church in Kirkland, WA where Wendell & Gini Smith are the senior pastors. When asked by Serj why they left, they made the following comments:
“It’s not about the cars or houses, it’s about deception and manipulation for the end result of fleecing the flock. False doctrine caused me to leave the church…Paul told Timothy to watch his doctrine closely because it would save his soul and those who hear him. Why do people who take doctrine seriously leave that church? You do the math.” (Craig, City Business Church blog, July 21st, 2007 at 12:41 am)
“My reasons for leaving are closely related to Craig’s. We both saw the deception and the false teaching. The pastors there are not open to hearing any critical voices speak, even if in love – so that gave us no option, but to move on, although it is hard to stop talking about it because of all of our friends that are still there…They [the pastors of the fastest church planting church in the nation] don’t buy $500 trash cans (like City does) or $4,000 flower pots (like City does), and yes that is true – I was a custodian at City so I know.” (C.T.P., City Business Church blog, July 21st, 2007 at 8:54 am).
After reading what these two former members said about why they left The City Church, I found the following comments from Pastor Wendell Smith, Craig and C.T.P.'s former pastor, most interesting:
“Over the years, I have known a few men who chose to debate the issue of tithing with me. Rationalizing their view based on their own limited perusing of Scripture, they decided to take a stand against being ‘obligated’ to give ten percent of their income. They believed the New Testament way was to give as the Spirit led. But always, upon review of their financial records after their departure, we discovered they were giving far less. Why would the Holy Spirit lead them to give less than what both Old and New Testament Scriptures teach? I believe the wrong spirit led them to the wrong doctrine and to the wrong decision! They missed the bigger issues of having a right heart attitude toward God, loving His Word, wanting to please Him, and understanding covenant relationship.” Wendell Smith, Prosperity with a Purpose, The City Church, Kirkland, Washington, 2005, p. 158
Both sides in this discussion accuse the other of being involved in some form of deception. Craig and C.T.P. accuse Pastor Wendell of being deceived by false teaching and using it to manipulate his flock for personal financial profit. Pastor Wendell accuses those who questioned his doctrine of tithing of not loving God's Word, and, therefore, opening themselves up to being deceived by a "wrong spirit." In my view, for any Christian to accuse another believer of being deceived is a very serious matter. What do you think?
spws says …
…review financial records after their departure…. like he really cares or would make the time…
…. they were giving far less…. how does HE know what their income is??
….less than what the NT scriptures teach…. refresh my memory.. what does it teach??
“Why would the Holy Spirit lead them to give less than what both Old and New Testament Scriptures teach? I believe the wrong spirit led them to the wrong doctrine and to the wrong decision!”
That’s just sick, claiming to know what the Holy Spirit would ask of anyone but yourself. Wrong doctrine? Maybe different than yours, but it’s arrogant to assume that only yours is the right doctrine.
“They missed the bigger issues of having a right heart attitude toward God, loving His Word, wanting to please Him, and understanding covenant relationship.”
Well yes, having a right heart attitude toward God is the bigger issue, not if and how much we should tithe! And wanting to please Him, not obeying our pastor or our church’s law, should be our ultimate goal. We are already automatically under the new covenant because of the cross, there’s nothing more required of us to enter into that relationship with Jesus.
Hey Wendall, maybe the Holy Spirit was leading them to give their money to the poor…you know, like Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler to do? Just because you didn’t get to pocket their 10% doesn’t mean they didn’t give it.
I have no problem at all of accusing Wendall Smith of being deceived…in fact its a much kinder accusation…if Wendall isn’t decieved than he’s a crook…I don’t believe that Wendall is dishonest…he’s just deceived.
SPeWS jumps around in that paragraph like a man with a hot foot! It doesn’t make much sense to me … he acknowledges the men’s objection to the tithe, notes that they studied scripture (it’s a cheap shot to say their bible study was a ‘perusal’ and ‘limited’) – he even acknowledges what the NT says about “spirit led” giving … then he changes horses abruptly in mid stream and goes to their financial records, faulting for not tithing … OF COURSE THEY WEREN’T TITHING YOU IDIOT! THEY STUDIED THE SCRIPURES, DETERMINED THE TITHE DOCTRINE WAS NOT BIBLICAL, AND RESISTED YOUR FALSE TEACHING!
Let me ask this question of SPeWS – IF he, or Frank, or any other of the tithe preachers wanted to debate the tithe issue, there’s several apologists here who would be up to the task of debate – and I have NO doubt SPeWS, Frank, et al, would limp off with their tail between their legs.
I know David is preparing a book, my friend Dr. Russell E. Kelly (author of “Should the Church Teach Tithing”) makes an appearance here once in awhile, and even this old dog has written a paper on Exposing the Tithe Lie.
Must take a lot of intestinal fortitude to proclaim something like that in a book about your detractors, and not offer them equal time, or offer to debate them in front of your congregation. As such, Wendell’s argument in that book is pure straw-man. Whoop-de-freakin’-do. He wrote about an imaginary debate with a couple nameless, faceless former church members – in which of course he wins and gets in the last word.
You know – Dave – when you write that book, if it’s not already happening to you now – you will wind up debating people via email for a long while. It’s only died down for me because I’ve shut down my old email link. But I did debate them and through the objections I received, the Lord led me into even more truth about the tithe issue. By way of comparison, I received about 20 affirmations for every 1 objection. The objections btw, came either from the pastors with building and staff to fund, or the house prophet who was in cahoots with the pastor.
Dr. Kelly has a group on Yahoo, as I recall and he has regularly debated people on the tithe subject.
So IF the likes of SPeWS really wanted to debate someone who is beyond “limited perusal”, he wouldn’t have to go far to find a sparring partner.
How much you wanna bet he’d never risk a debate with someone who is up to the task?
I love how pastors confirm their tithing doctrine just because tithers happen to give more than Spirit led givers. It’s no wonder that it’s the Mormon cult that out gives all religions and denominations with their tithing legalism, not because they are Spirit-led. The pharisees outdid everyone with their legalism but that doesn’t mean that God was confirming their actions. What do pastors expect if an OT curse was preached on me, and my sanctification was in jeopardy for not tithing.
That’s really presumptuous that Wendell would claim to know these things by a person’s lack of a thing record. Wow.
Sam, by the way, have you ever compiled a list of all of the “proofs” for the Mandatory Tithe like in a quick check list format? If so, I’d like to have a copy so that I could proof my book and see that it is thorough enough. I am trying not to leave any stone unturned in the matter. The pro-tither, Kevin Conner, told me about Kelly’s online book against the tithe as I have communicated to him about some of his statements on the matter. I was impressed that he said that he had at least begun to read something contrary to the tithing tradition. He said he had to stop when Kelly (I think it was him) said that Melch was a pagan child molester (or something like that)!
—
anna, great comments!
—
tithes and offerings: your comment about the fallacy of quantification and the LDS cult was phenomenal! by the way, I am researching parallels between LDS and Evangelical and Charismatic pro-tithers to let the readers see them for themselves and decide who they want to follow: Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith! Beautiful insight.
David Mackin,
I have a page on my website that has a list of over 50 tithing arguments that used for proof that have been debunked. You can see it here.
Arguments used for tithing
-Jared
Jared, Thank you very much!
Dave,
The way my articles on the Tithe came together, was initially through the Holy Spirit challenging my (learned) doctrine on the tithe. Having demolished that teaching in me with His word (revelation), I posted it on a prophetic mailing list I subscribed to in the spring of 2000. With that post, people began to write me directly with the various arguments their pastors used to convince them to tithe and the Lord then led me in study to debunk those arguments as well.
Last fall I deleted all that stuff from my web site as I felt led to do so, but a compilation of my tithe writings are still available at Clay Sike’s web site at http://www.lighthouseprophecy.com/prophecy/ExposingTheTitheLie.html
Obviously Dave, I’m not a degreed theologian … many of the things the Lord revealed to me had more to do with issues of the heart – opening my eyes to see the injustice of erecting yet another temple on the backs of poor sons and daughters who didn’t have enough to eat … and so often you might feel through my articles the anger and frustration I saw through the Spirit … we may as well shovel the tithe into a furnace, for all the good it does to feed God’s people, clothe the poor, help with medical needs, etc. Where the tithe is used is for buildings, grounds, staff, etc., while the streets are fairly littered with the hungry, sick and dying.
I finally had to take those things down, Dave, because it seems to me that my writings gave people a reason to give less or nothing at all – and they did not understand that instead of 10%, we now give all. That instead of to an institution, we needed to give to each other … I haven’t seen much to encourage me that my efforts prompted right giving, so much as they encouraged people to stop wrong giving. And that just aches me.
Jack
Jack, thanks for the reference and all the hard work you put into your tithing studies; i’m sure that they were not a waste; i will take away from your comments a wisdom for the writing of my own book esp about not releasing believers not to give at all to anyone…that is sad
Samaritan,
I too have seen the same thing that you have about people finding reasons to give less or nothing at all. I thought about that deeply. Here’s the conclusion that i came up with for my own website. If someone is chained up and in a prison, you first have to unlock the chains and unlock the door, before they use their freedom. It’s just that people who have been locked up for so long in the doctrine of tithing and they automatically are free don’t really understand how to control the freedom when they get out. Sure, they will abuse it. Sure, they will not fully understand the responsibility they actually have with freedom, but keeping them locked up is still not the right thing to do either.
-Jared
Samaritan said: “we may as well shovel the tithe into a furnace, for all the good it does to feed God’s people, clothe the poor, help with medical needs, etc. Where the tithe is used is for buildings, grounds, staff, etc., while the streets are fairly littered with the hungry, sick and dying.”
Great point Sam. It amazes me how churches are so focused on the building programs rather than people. Here is a great story that appeared in the SF Chronicle today.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/04/BA8MUSL28.DTL
David,
You raise an interesting question concerning the nature of the accusation of deception. Both sides assert the deceived status of the opposing side. This shows how dangerous a claim to truth is, because a claim to truth is really a claim to power. Once I have truth I can deal out judgment with stunning coherency, since the system that makes everything coherent was self-constructed.
Therefore, I think we can best solve this dilemma by dropping this accusation. Instead, let us consult the two most important texts concerning prosperity and tithing, which are the biblical texts and church history. How do the verses used in these arguments best make sense in light of their contexts? Secondly, does the prosperity gospel fit into the context of 2,000 years of church history? Of course, it does not fit. The only context that the prosperity gospel fits into is American 20th century capitalism.
I challenge anyone to provide the name of a church theologian, scholar, pastor, or important figure that taught anything similar to the prosperity gospel pre-1900.
Thus, the prosperity gospel and the mandatory tithe fail to be coherent in the overarching story of scripture and church history. And therefore, we can dismiss it and its advocates with ease.
Yikes…this kind of language always brings back such bad memories. Don’t you love how these men manipulate your mind and pluck on your heart strings, questioning your faith in God and calling out your love of His word whenever you question them? It’s so sad. I think there must be a secret pastoral training school where they teach each other how to talk like this. It’s so subtle and under the radar that you barely notice it. But once you are aware you see it in everything that they say and write. That soft jab or mild prod to get you back on their side of the tracks. It really is cultish mind control and very scary.
The majority of the arguments on this blog have been anti-tithe and that’s cool. I choose to give my tithes to my church and my offerings to a missionary friend through another church. I have a quick question for Dave or anyone else who wants to answer. What was the early church’s giving like? The church in the book of Acts? Didn’t they give like 45% of their income to their local synagogues?
Ex, Your insightful comments deserve a blog article! Fabulous.
I think that those who cringe at our using the word “cult” to describe how some of these kinds of churches function might open their minds a little more as they explore, as you pointed out, the ways of mind control and emotional manipulation (using fear, guilt, status carrots) that are rife in these leaders’ lives.
Recently, I was told the following from a pastor on the phone:
“David, you are so twisted. I don’t want to talk to you anymore because I’m afraid that you might twist me.”
“David, you have not changed at all. You’re still the same. You and I are sooo different.”
Pastor: “David, you don’t even know yourself.”
David: “What exactly do you mean by that comment?’
Pastor: “Oh, never mind…”
Former, Great question. I plan to have an entire chapter on this in my upcoming book; it’s too much to go into here.
[Comment ID #32531 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thanks Dave…I do my best to shine light on this stuff. If you ever pick up Charisma magazine, check out this months letters to the editor. I am the featured responder, picture and all. (I know I just gave away my identity, but I don’t really care.)
All the best.
Dave, I think I know what that means – or at least what it would look like for a person not to know himself.
Imagine getting up every morning and lathering up for a shave, but not before introducing yourself to the guy in the mirror.
Sam
Please tell me you wrote a letter in response to the Generation Unleashed article? Because that will not make the leadership happy.
[Comment ID #32538 Will Be Quoted Here]
No, I wrote in response to all their articles on prosperity preachers and fame/fourtune seeking pastors. I guess they like what I said because they plastered my mug on there and used my quote. However, this is why I believe God has a sense of humor. In the same issue that they decide to run my blast on evangelical prosperity leaders, there is an article about Generation Unleashed, something I completely dispise. So that means all those CBC’ers who don’t like me have to read my words in the same magazine hyping their conference. If Charisma choose to run my letter in any other month I am sure far less people from CBC would have seen it, but that GU article means they all got a copy. Adds more coal to the we hate AC and EK fire.
[Comment ID #32531 Will Be Quoted Here]David,
Thanks for sharing that! It brought a memory back. During the forward together campaign some years ago, I felt uncomfortable with the program.
I gave a CD of a sermon to Theo to listen to, as I wanted someone more mature to evaluate it. When I asked later about it, he told me he had listened to it, and it “pushed his buttons”. He pointed out how manipulating it is to say things like, “if you think this is a good word, then give the Lord a hand!” What if you disagree? What happens if you don’t clap? You stick out like a sore thumb! Pure manipulation! It is just the opposite of hearing from the Lord yourself and doing His will, as spoken of in 2 Corinthians 9:7, “Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or UNDER COMPULSION.”
Theo is gone now, but his love of Christ and wisdom have inspired me and moved me towards freedom in Christ.
Guys, I have to say that this entire site is the most pathetic things I’ve ever seen. It is a shame that some people study the scriptures not out of a heart to seek God but out of a heart to destroy the church. I’ve read and also heard first hand the statements by Pastor Wendell that were noted in this blog and I totally agree. If you don’t want the blessing that comes from being faithful with your finances to God, then fine but don’t destroy the men and women of God who are pursuing the life and calling God has for them.
Where do you guys come up with this horseshit?
Let a brother study the scriptures and come up with an interpretation different than the doctrine peddled by hirelings and their blind followers will come out of the woodwork NOT with anything insightful or spiritual to offer to the discussion, but with accusations against the brother …
You can kiss my ass, PC. You’re a blind moron.
‘Scrupe
[Comment ID #32969 Will Be Quoted Here]
Here we go again….
Another example of a person who just doesn’t get it. They are everywhere aren’t they? Amazing that so many people can be led astray so easily. Oh well, not our fight. Hopefully God will shine light to the deception you are under and someday you will come back to this blog with a new understanding of just how off Wendell (and you) are. Until then I will pray for you.
PS – By the way, if it’s so pathetic then why do you come on here to read things? I’ve asked this question a hundred times from you people and I still haven’t gotten an answer.
PC, I felt that your remarks warranted a blog article. Please look for it soon. Thanks for sharing with us. I really mean this. I hope that this will not be the last time you share with us. Please try not to feel intimidated by the cussing and name-calling; from what I know of these guys, their bark is much bigger than their bite. They love Jesus just like you do. Hope to hear from you soon. my friend…
Good scripture for us to remember:
Col 3:8
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
NKJV
Dear Help Me Find My Brain,
A couple other good scriptures to remember:
So, here’s a test for you, HMFMB. When someone (PC) lies about us (the brethren), declaring that he knows the condition / intent of our hearts (is PC a seer), accusing us of doing the work of the enemy (destroying the church), please answer me this HMFMB: Whom does PC bear more resemblance to: Jesus (in whom there is no deceipt nor does he accuse), or Satan (the father of lies and the accuser of the brethren)?
Sorry you don’t have the stomach for calling the lies of the devil as they are.
‘Scrupe
Dear Scrupe-
Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
NKJV
What happened to you was called “conviction” dont get made at me!
Matt 12:34-37
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
NKJV
Prov 15:2
2 The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly,
But the mouth of fools pours forth foolishness.
NKJV
Prov 18:21
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue,
And those who love it will eat its fruit
NKJV
Do you really want to go there?
Love,
HMFMB
No conviction here, HMFMB. Do all Christians claim to be able to ‘read’ others like that? Wow – PC knows the motives of my heart and you know I’m convicted? What’s up with that? Cat/RP ought to expand the ‘Christianese’ post and talk about how deep runs presumptuousness in believers …
Sorry man – but I’ve just been very keenly aware of that lately … presumption like that is little different than judgment …
I post one scripture and you jumped all over it. You the one that stepped on it not me.
Plus I didnt answer you, so I will do my best to answer you.
Scrupe said:
“Whom does PC bear more resemblance to: Jesus (in whom there is no deceipt nor does he accuse), or Satan (the father of lies and the accuser of the brethren)?”
Well, it depends on how a person looks at it. Maybe PC feels that you are not apart of the brethren but rather wolves rather then sheep.
Matt 10:16
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
NKJV
Luke 10:3
3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves.
Maybe he sees that the Lord has sent him to this site to be a lamb among wolves. I mean you can not judge his heart or her heart motives. Because that would be presumptuous.
“You can kiss my ass, PC. You’re a blind moron.”
Regarding Jesus:
Not sure Jesus would tell PC to kiss his ass.
That would violate scripture:
Col 3:8
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
Haven’t read Matthew 23 lately, eh?
You were being presumptuous in posting it, directing it to “us”. So what was your intent in posting it to “us”? Or did you post it for me, but hid behind an “us” statement rather tell me directly what you think? I’m the only one who used what some people call cussing … is “ass” what you would call “filthy language”? Or perhaps it was “horseshit” which close to the word “dung” which Paul used in Philippians 3:8. Or is it calling someone “blind” (which Jesus did) or calling someone a “moron” (God calls someone a “fool” in Luke 12:15-21) …
I’m just curious what your problem is. I’m not much of a fan of ‘scripture grenades’ tossed into a conversation without someone having courage enough to say their reasons are for doing so …
“Feels” … I guess “feelings” have replaced good old fashioned “discernment” which is a gift of the Holy Spirit, eh?
At any rate – I guess you’re right about PC – it’s that kind of haphazard drive-by shooting we’ve come to expect from people who breeze by the blog and render judgment of everyone here after reading just a couple of messages …
Give it a rest, HMFMB.
‘Scrupe
I’m with you Scrupe. Seriously PC, what the hell?
Do you ever question anything? Do you ever use your cognitive faculties for critical reflection and rational analysis? Do you think we are here to bitch about some bad years spent in bad churches? No, we are here to discuss what happened during those years so we can better warn fellow Christians. Think of this more as a criminal investigation.
And, seriously, why do you post “NKJV” after all of your out-of-context-biblical-text bombs? Are you simply a die-hard for the textus receptus? There are better translations out now, did you know that?
Peace and love
CTP
By PC I mean PC and Help Me Understand, or Help Me Get A Brain… whatever
You are all the same
CTP:
“why do you post “NKJV†after all of your out-of-context-biblical-text bombs?
What was out of context?
Are you one of those new types of christians that like using curse words because it makes you sound so hip or mainstream? Not judging your motivation but just wondering.
Are you simply a die-hard for the textus receptus?
No. I just posted from a simple bible software..is that ok? And thanks for using a word that shows how studious you are.
There are better translations out now, did you know that?”
So tell me great philosopher what bible should us poor feeble peasants read? I have enjoyed reading NKJV, NLT, ASV, TLB and currently reading NASB.
Would you suggest a different translation that would help me? Obviously with your vast knowledge of the word and studying you have done you can help this disciple to do better.
Oh this is so much more fun when I’ve had a couple of drinks, but I will give a sober response…
Quoting verses like that undermines the importance of context. The addition of “verses” was included in much later translations of the biblical cannon. By using this method, anyone can assert anything and use the “Bible” in an authoritative manner, which really is your authority in disguise.
Actually that is just how I talk. I’m kinda a nerd
Why, yes, I am a great philosopher (: Try the New Revised Standard Version.
Well, that is your name.
No one has a right answer, but the point is keep everyone in conversation. These churches negate this imperative and instead they hide their lack of intelligence by racking up honorary doctorates and using them for false prestige.
So, why are you here? Who are you defending?
I’m definitely not here to give our right answers… I’m quite liberal in my theology, so I’m sure they could start a whole blog taking apart my own thoughts and criticizing me, but they don’t. Why? Because I am not indoctrinating others and taking their money by claiming to have it all figured out. These pastors are culpable, whereas I am not; I am a learner and not an indoctrinator.
If these churches humbled themselves and opened everyone up for discussion, then this blog would shut down, but until then, we are going to keep doing our job.
“So, why are you here? Who are you defending?”
I am here because listening to others and talking with other helps me to think. It is helping my critical thinking skills.
I have not seen any reason to defend anyone. I read what is being said and realize preception is everything and I ask myself ” Could some of this be true or I say, I can see that or I say, this person (blogger) is full of it”…
“I am a learner…”
This is why I am here as well.
In the last six months I have begin to listen and read other pastors message and books. Mark Driscoll and John Piper are two that I have been enjoying.
HMU,
It’s those kinds of responses that are the most frustrating, because it is typical of the mindset many of us have encountered upon coming out of abusive church situations … it suggests that you approach what is written here as untruth, that you have a preconceived notion that all that goes on at the churches written about here, is on the up and up and that the leaders of those churches are beyond reproach …
Where the people here are writing about their 1st hand experiences of things hurtful enough that they left the church, don’t you think they should be approached as truth? After all, a person’s experience and feelings about it are really indisputable. In denying someone else has experienced something and feels hurt about it, you run the risk of perpetuating the abuse – in that you are effectively calling the person a “liar” or denying them the right to feel what they’ve felt …
Imagine the story of the good Samaritan, modified slightly to reflect the ‘typical’ response of church officials and members to those who were hurt by their church.
Sam
Sam, very insightful!
I happened upon this page because it had a reference to a friend of mine. There seems to be quite a bit of bitterness here. I think that as Christians all we should be able to have principled disagreements about the interpretation of scripture.
Tithing or not tithing is not going to get anyone into heaven. So, while giving is important it is not a salvation issue.
[Comment ID #33134 Will Be Quoted Here]
It’s amazing to me how every new person on here says the same things – either “you all are stupid and bitter” or “this is awesome, I’m so glad I found this site.”
This goes way beyond interpretation of scripture. And if you haven’t checked many prosperity churches do make tithing an issue of salvation. I went to a church down here in Los Angeles once that told the congregation their seat in heaven was tied to the amount of money they gave. The shut and blocked the doors during the offering…pretty ridiculous huh?
Anyway, I know its hard to fathom people who are God-fearing Christians speaking out against the church…oh the horror! But the truth is many of us have moved on from bitterness to action. We post because it allows us to share new thoughts and ideas, challenge a corrupt, corporate church system, and raise doubts in others minds about the “truth” of the organizations they are involved with.
(37) Having settled the matter HMU turned to go, but not before kicking the injured man a few times for good measure. On his way out the door, HMU ordered a tall half-caff vanilla latte and dolled it up with a dash of nutmeg. ”
I wasnt going to comment on this because I wasnt sure what to say. BUT, to be honest. Not everyone who attends or did attend etc churches like TCC, CBC,CCC etc. are people like this.
So in the words of a famous chef: You Sam can Piss off.
“We post because it allows us to share new thoughts and ideas, challenge a corrupt, corporate church system, and raise doubts in others minds about the “truth†of the organizations they are involved with.”
I am fine with what is in the section quoted here. I am actually glad that I found this page. I may actually become a regular addition. At the same time, I did not call you stupid, crazy or criticize you for questioning the church. The tone of some of the posts are not “in love” from my reading.
Even in web page that wins an award for being subversive there should be a tone that rises above whatever hurt and pain there may be. That is just my opinion. I have also read quite a bit of the page and all of it is not bitter.
Help Me Understand wrote: “So in the words of a famous chef: You Sam can Piss off.”
Help Me Understand, Please help me understand why you are saying this to Sam -or are you just kidding?
[Comment ID #33161 Will Be Quoted Here]
Fred,
Hope you stick around and have as much fun here as the rest of us. If you plan on staying, there are certain phrases that trigger knee-jerk responses from CBC bloggers:
You are bitter
You are offended
You still have an offense
You should forgive
‘under cover’
Why do you care since you arent there?
Why aren’t you over it yet?
Why are you talking about it?
You need to go to the person first
The posts are not ‘in love’
Those are just the ones that come readily to mind. I’m sure there are others.
Not saying that you can’t say any of these but if you do, be prepared for the onslaught. The reason for that is certain types who visit here come armed with these phrases in their ammunition — it’s so predictable — it’s the same every time — but each one thinks they are the first to set us straight!! It would be funny if it weren’t so annoying.
This is a forum that doesn’t follow the rules that your
churchianitychristianity requires. My good friend Survivor often reminds me of the saying “The old rules no longer apply”. That’s true here. It’s very liberating if you can start thinking outside the religious box. Jesus was totally outside the religious box of his day and didn’t say the kindest things to the Pharisees who were always trying to trap him with their religious rules.Nancy: If I follow your logic correctly, you are saying that we should be cordial to one another and not put words in someone elses mouth means I have God in a box? Saying I see bitterness and hurt on the page is different than calling anyone bitter. The fact that I said that it was my opinion is a way of stating my opinion but not telling you how or what to think. I have never been a member of CBC/BT or TCC, so I do not have an axe to grind or pastor to defend. On the other hand, why do you think comments about bitterness and letting the hurt go continue to be brought up?
You implied that I am a Pharisee type. What kind of rules do you feel my post is trying to trap you in?
You jumped all over me by assuming you know who and what I am. You do not know me. You seem concerned about being judged unfairly but you judged me. Beware that in your attempt to avoid one type of legalism you do not simply create a new legalism.
Exactly!
I did not come to this site armed with anything. I stumbled upon it not even knowing what it was/is.
So, what exactly did I say that was “rules based”?
One of the problems that people here have had in their church experience is that leaders were not willing to listen to other perspectives. I get that. It does not make sense to have a blog where some posters seem to respond to people challenging their perspectives just like their former pastors. If this is a place for ideas to freely flow then folks should adress what was actually said. Not simply pull out a stump speech which is what I felt happened in the above post.
In my posts above I did not question the CONTENT of what anyone said. I commented on the tone. I believe the Bible allows us to differ on theology. I also believe that it gives us some standards we should strive for in how we treat and speak about others. How we say things matters. We can be right but still not communicate it in a way that honors Christ. (I am not saying thay you are dishonoring Christ.)
Again, I don’t personally know any of you. I am not commenting on what type of person you are or where you relationship with Christ stands. You also do not know me. I would appreciate not being lumped in with a type of person who post here. Categorizing folks based on a statement or two seems to contradict what the people on this site are really about.
[Comment ID #33224 Will Be Quoted Here]
Hi Fred,
No I wasn’t calling YOU a pharisee. The point that I was trying to make (which I obviously didn’t make very clearly) is that because of all we have gone through at our respective churches and then having certain types come here and tell us variations of my tongue-in-cheek list, we tend to react quickly to THAT. In an effort to set us straight, it only makes us feel like they are once again trying to silence our voices when we had to be quiet and take it for far too long. The point of the blog is to speak out about what went wrong.
I know that I don’t know you at all and am not making a judgment of you. I am just saying if you want to use any of those ‘trigger’ type phrases just be prepared for a reaction.
Same with the armed with ammo reference — I didn’t make it clear that I wasn’t directing that at YOU. I was directing it at those who have come on previously and have proved themselves to be here to set us all straight.
My apologies. I see now that I was doing something similar to what we used to call Prayer-reaching when people would make our eyes roll when using a public prayer to preach at those in the room. So, I am rolling my eyes at me now. sigh.
Instead of lumping you in, I was trying to say that “certain words”, no matter who says them, tend to trigger reactions in some of us. I’m sure we are all working on trying not to be so jumpy.
Thanks Nancy. I appreciate that explanation.
I have only been here a couple of days and am really trying to weigh what is going on this blog. I am on a journey and I don’t know where it is taking me. A number of things are coming together at one time. What I am looking for is a place to work things through. All that to say, I may be a bit touchy too.
Welcome to the club. We’ve all been there. I will pray that God continues to open things up for you, it’s quite a surreal feeling to have the life you are so used to living change all at once.
All the best.
[Comment ID #33255 Will Be Quoted Here]
I hear you Fred and thanks for giving me a chance to clarify
The blog has been a great place to laugh, write and heal. I come and go and come back again when I get an email to a post that I can’t resist commenting on! Actually last week was the first time I used my real name. For some reason I felt free enough to do that. Not that I’ll only do that from now on. . . guess we’ll see
What is everyone’s deal here. Look, I know that people get hurt in and by the church. If you’re a Christian, you are the church. The same Spirit who dwells in me dwells in you. And, yes, it is possible to know whether or not the Spirit is leading someone or not…the Bible gives precedence for it.
This whole blog is based around the tearing down of men and churches. Even if these men (Frank, Wendell, etc…) are less than perfect (and they are), are you not less than perfect? It grieves the Spirit (and again, I can say this because I have the Spirit in me and I’ve studied the Word) when we slander and attack. Has anyone ever said (even in private) that Frank is a real jerk…fool…or even worse? What do you think Jesus says to that?
I don’t and never have attended CBC or the City church. I’ve visited both and know that these are men of God…imperfect as they may be. Don’t you think it would be better to release these men to the Lord and pray for them? It’s time to forgive. It’s clear in Matthew that if you don’t forgive, then neither will the Father forgive you. Doesn’t that invoke the Fear of the Lord in anyone?
One last thing related to forgiveness and the previous comment – it is not part of the healing process to fester and take in complaints about pastors. It may be part of putting up a wall in order to protect from being hurt again. God is the One who will deal with these men and call them to accountability. The scriptures are clear that He can’t/won’t until we release them to Him.
If you want healing, forgive.
Thank you for your insights, Mark. However, did it occur to you that maybe you assume wa-a-a-a-ay too much? Like…
– we are all hurt
– we expect senior pastors to be perfect
– the goal of the bloggers is to tear down godly men
– these pastors are godly men
– we have not forgiven them
– we do not have the fear of the Lord
– we have not experienced healing
– we are “putting up walls”
– we are not aware that God calls people into accountability
– we have not released them
AND — where does it say that God won’t deal with people until “we” release them?
If, Mark, you are a drive-by, you will not see this or answer it. If you are serious about a dialogue, maybe you can think about these things.
Precisely, this is why you have no understanding of what many people on here are talking about. A casual visitor will never be able to see or understand the depths of wrongness that occur at these places. There’s a difference between being burned, hurt, or offended and having your life ruined by lies (not saying mine was, but I know a lot of people who are in that boat). Anyway, try not to simply look at things through your rosy colored glasses and make an attempt to feel for people who’ve been crushed by a corrupt system.
-Didn’t say you were all hurt.
-Didn’t say you expected pastors to be perfect. reading through the posts, it is clear that people are here to bring defamation to the pastors of these churches. If not, what is the purpose? Probably so other people can see the light and learn it’s okay to be bitter.
-These pastors are Godly men. Have they done worse than King David. Or worse than Moses?
-Forgiveness doesn’t mean forgetfulness. It most certainly means to not bringing it up again and again and discussing it with others.
-I don’t see a lot of wisdom put forth in the posts here. The fear of the Lord should guide someone away from tearing others down.
-If someone is still stuck trying to expose these pastors “for what they really are,” then no, you’re not healed.
-Didn’t say you were all putting up walls. I’m simply pointing out that this kind of activity can lead to it and may be a part of the process.
-Didn’t say you weren’t aware that God holds people accountable. Clearly, many of the posters here believe they they’re able to help in the process of God’s judgment.
-If you are still trying to bring harm to them (which includes trying to make sure everyone knows that they’re bad folks), then you haven’t released them.
I didn’t post without thinking about what I said. I haven’t spent more than 3-4 Sundays a year in either CBC or the City Church. BUT………I have been in church my entire life. Everyone who has been, has been exposed to hurt. No my pastor isn’t just the same as Frank or Wendell and my youth pastor was Doug or Judah. But even my pastor has been accused of being controlling. In fact, I’ve even felt that way at times. I’ve been wronged too.
We are to encourage one another. We’re to build each other up.
Can pastors sin? Yep. Can they respond incorrectly? Yep. Should we leave the church and start a blog? Honestly, now, is that what you think the Holy Spirit would lead one to do?
just a p.s.
woudn’t it be cool if this site turned into an encouraging uplifting forum. a place where people could share struggles and get help and prayer? wouldn’t that be the most effective use for this kind of a thing?
When those men were confronted for their wrongs…they fell on the faces before God and asked for repentance. Then they went out an apologized to the people. I’ve said this many times…one apology letter from City Bible or The City Church for the many wrongs over the years would have a dramatic effect on the power of this blog. Instead all they’ve sent are cease and disist letters from lawyers and made threatening statements like “we know where you live!” Don’t think that’s how David or Moses responded, do you?
Um…that happens all the time. Stick around awhile, read more of what’s going on here. Popping your head in every few months won’t teach you a thing. As I said before, pay attention to some of our readers…who knows you may learn a thing or two.
Mark, thank you for replying. I honestly didn’t think you would. And it is evident that you have thought about what you have written — more than the average drive-by.
I still maintain that there are many assumptions in your view, and perhaps some of them are correct. Being hurt, processing through it, finding forgiveness — these are all real and apply to anybody who lives among other humans.
Now I’m going to speak for myself, rather than for other bloggers here. The reason I no longer attend CBC is because the doctrine preached is unbiblical. I will talk face to face with any CBC pastor and present my case, if any were interested. They are not, and I tried, quietly and with tears.
I did not show up at the church one day and decide it didn’t like the teaching after 3-4 sermons. I was a card-carrying, tithe-paying member for decades. Many current members are still my friends.
According to Scripture, if a brother stumbles in sin, there is a way to approach and handle the situation. But if a leader publicly preaches another gospel to his listeners, the way to handle the situation is much different.
Personally, I grieve over the current state of affairs. Every 2-3 months I listen to a sermon to see if there is any movement toward repentance. I listened to the 3/7 sermon to see, and was saddened all over again — screaming on the inside just as I did before I left “That’s not what the Bible says!!!”
So please, don’t decide that we are all bitter, angry, unforgiving people that just can’t get over it and have to tear down godly men to get revenge. I am not interested in judgment. I am still an intercessor and I pray for repentance.
I hope that you are never in a situation of having to decide what to do if your pastor starts preaching drivel that feeds men’s greed and turns them away from the magnificence of the Cross.
It couldn’t have been said better. This is the reason why this blog started
You all are a bunch of sad sack idiots that need to get a life……………………………………….
Dumb asses one and all
You think that you are so import that you need a validation code, you think way to highly of your lousy self.
And you think you’re so important that anyone here would take your juvenile sounding comments seriously?
If you call yourself a Christian, I say way to represent Christ through your name-calling, swearing and assumptions.
Drive-by shootings are the epitome of cowardice …
The pot calls the kettle black — with poor grammar and spelling to boot.
This is what Christianity has done to honest people. The promise of riches, and other possessions is what drives most Christians to believe what they do. I used to believe that the majority of Christians had good hearts, but the way they follow without thinking make me think they are just mush.
Thank you Sam for your witt and humor. “Kick them on the way out.” Thank God for humor, if it wasn’t for humor we would have to take ourselves seriously, wouldn’t we. Back to the title of this page and how I found my way here.
What I googled is “Satan has deceived everyone in the Church”. That is right you have all been deceived. Your not alone just about every religion in the world has been deceived. They all have false prophets. How have I been deceived you ask? Most all of you really belong to a Pagan Church. That’s right Pagan. Now how is that?
That is Human Sacrifice. That is a Pagan concept.
Eating a raw or burnt sacrifce was a commom practice in Pagan worship. Why waste the meat. Back to the topic of discussion:
Now that you know you have been deceived by a Pagan Church do you still want to tithe? Revelation warns us that Satan will deceive all. Money given to the Church could be money given to Satan. Something to think about. Now God is very real, you just don’t have the right Diety yet. God pointed that out to me, I too was deceived.
God Messanger, Melanie
Upon reading many of these comments I see much concern.
Jesus clearly states that the 10% tithe belongs to God, if you refuse to give it then you are stealing from God. Any spiritual led giving should be on top of your tithe, not instead of.
Who are you to judge? there is only 1 judge and that is God. God knows Wendell’s heart, and God will judge him accordingly.
I find it hard to understand how you can accuse someone who has led thousands of people to salvation, to be accused of self gain.
I like the comment of one person saying this forum should be used to help and pray for each other, this is true; but instead it is used to judge. I suggest you evaluate your own heart and figure out why you have a problem with the biblical doctorine of tithing.
“I find it hard to understand how you can accuse someone who has led thousands of people to salvation, to be accused of self gain.”
Andrew:
Wow, P. Wendell really lead thousands of people to salvation? OMG, that is so awsome. because I was under the misconception that only Jesus brought us to salvation. hmmmm what do I know.
Oh God. Melanie, being Christian versus being pagan is not necessarily a question of ritual. Christians are Christians and not pagans because of certain events that they believe really took place, and because of certain beliefs about God that are unique to their (my) faith. The word ‘pagan’ comes from the Latin for a ‘villager’ – that is, someone who was outside the city and was not able to hear of the Christian faith. This is also where we get the word ‘heathen’ from too.
Rituals and customs are simple human conventional practices that are symbols or signs of something external to what is being done. Jesus did not ask us to stop having ritualistic practices, he simply adopted one for a specific reason: the practice of consummation is a symbol of an external event, the cross, resurrection, etc.
Drinking wine and eating bread does not make me a pagan, in the same way that drinking tea doesn’t make me Canadian.
Peace,
Bishop
We’ve come to the conclusion that if you ‘come to the Lord’ in one of these MFI churches it’s like being inducted into a cult. Not that the person won’t go to heaven if they received the true Jesus into their heart, but their walk will start out with a major limp or something. The Holy Spirit, though, can guide them into all truth even if the journey is a long and winding road.
WE got out but had to be hit over the head about 50 times with the senior pastors’ bad behavior in order to see it truly wasn’t God’s best for us to stay.
Pain is a person’s only hope for freedom from controlling people.
He clearly states this? REALLY? Where? Please tell/show me! Chapter and verse. I’m dying to know.
I helped start the City Church before they were in Kirkland/Redmond they were on Main in Bellevue next to K-Mart b4 that they met at the Marriott by 405 and before that they met at the Bible Camp out on Lake Sammamish. There were 13 people when I started and about 500 when I left. I left for the same reasons – a out of proportion zealousness for prosperity.
This isn’t really about tithing you understand, this is about a deep insecurity Wendell has about his position of pastor. I once found some notes that he left on a disc he gave me (he thought he had thrown them away but he forgot to empty the trash). I never told him about it but kept the files and still have them. The tamest documents were just plain odd – notes to himself in the third person like a little boy wanting to be something but not sure how to go about. How he should dress (Dress like a Senior Pastor!) How the church atmosphere should feel more like Disneyland (w/”music heard everywhere from the walkways and hallways where ever you go.” Exhortations to himself (Wendell) to claim the title of Senior Pastor, notes on how to ‘brand and position’ the church. The guy should have ran a PR Agency. He would have made more money and had less internal strife.
Anyway, I think Wendell’s head got torqued when he didn’t get the pastor job at Bible Temple. he was sure it was in the bag but then they gave it to someone else and he had to leave. He and Ginnie felt disgraced and felt they needed to prove themselves. This context should help you understand where he is coming from with this prosperity gospel. It serves the larger goal of building the church fast. He used to have a formula of about ‘ten bucks a head’ and based on that you needed about 300 people before the church could even support itself.
In any case, I hear Wendell is sick now. I hope he gets better. Maybe this kind of humbling will be what it takes for him to know that God loves him, he can stop performing now and accept His love and stop thinking he has to earn it. Wendell has a hard time with God’s grace so it’s difficult for him to express this to others, besides it grace allows followers a ‘way out of the conviction they feel when they don’t tithe.” (his ‘WS’s’ words).
Just pray for him. I can’t go there because I know too much and get convicted to speak out when I get around these guys. Unfortunately the guilt they feel – living so ‘ostentatiously blessed’ really gets under their skin and they can’t deal let alone hear.
Blessings, keep Christ as your center,
jC
Wow, FCC, that is really sad. Many of us BT old-timers have fond memories of Wendell. During the services in the old theater, there would always be a time for the Holy Spirit to speak through music or prophecy. I know I was not the only one to sit up a little straighter and listen a little closer when Wendell was at the mike. He had a gift for encouragement and purpose.
And I am probably not the only one to be saddened by his slide into the prosperity teaching. So inferior to the real message of grace, as you said. You are right; we should continue to pray for him.
Thanks for the input ‘Founder’, it’s good to hear from the inside.
The whole tithing/prosperity movement seems to be so works based to me as I have stepped back. How far are they from being like the JWs? The ostentatious lifestyles also put me off, they seem very far from the teachings of the NT, like 1 John 2:15-16. They seem to be saying that the ‘lust of the eyes’ and the ‘pride of life’ are trappings of God’s love for us! Such teaching is the opposite of what the Bible shows us.
Um, you’re still on the City Church? Think someone would have moved on by now.
ZING!!!
Zing?? Friend, this is not an SNL skit. I want good for Wendell, his family and ALL of the believers at the City Church. I don’t care how long it takes.
Mistaking prosperity as a measure of God’s blessing is a poison that leads to death. You might remember our pattern ‘Jesus Christ was a poor, homeless guy who got murdered. Not quite the picture of success and prosperity some would have us believe.
On the other hand, you might be right; perhaps if Jesus had just tithed a bit more He could have avoided that embarrassing and humiliating death on the cross?
The greatest form of deception is thinking that one can’t be decieved. We all have to have our guard up because Jesus said in Matthew 24:24, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” This means that anyone can fall into deception. The best guard I’ve found is the 1611 Authorized KJV edition. No room for error because there are no errors.
It’s easy to find out who The sheeps are and who the wolves are. Just look at who associates with who and you will see clearly if the tracks are paws or holves. For example, we all know that Orel Roberts was a wolf in sheeps clothing. The company church were affiliated with This ravenous wolf. Therefore, via association, I could see easily that Pastor Wendell is a ravenous wolf. If you do your homework, one could track down these demonic associations, all the way to Aleister Crowly, Wendell Smith, Blavatsky, Karl Marx, Anton LeVey, Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Kenneth Anger, Harry Potter, Calvanism, Satanism, The United States Government, Luciferians, and the list is endless….
John Vian:
hahhahah, I surly hope you are kidding. That was funny, made me laugh. But really, if your for real (sad I have to ask because I actually know people that have told me the KJV was infallible) its not funny at all but I am saddened.
Thanks,
If you think the KJV isn’t infallable, then prove it. Actually, all those who tried to prove it wrong had a change of heart. However, one needs to be sincere about their work.
WHY are there ERRORS in the King James Version Bible?
You have probably heard the joke about the bigoted Protestant fundamentalist who said, “If the King James Version was good enough for the apostles, it is good enough for me!” People sometimes forget that the KJV was published in 1611 A.D.
For centuries prior to 1611, Latin was the only scholarly language in Europe. The Latin Vulgate translation of Jerome, based upon a corrupt Alexandrian Text, was the official text of the powerful Roman Catholic Church.
Protestant translators sometimes did not have access to all of the Received Greek Official Text, and being familiar with the Vulgate, they sometimes put words into their translations based upon the Latin which were never there in the original Greek. Schaff points out that in about 80 places in the New Testament, the KJV adopts Latin readings not found in the Greek. Erasmus had a corrupt, incomplete text of Revelation to work from, and hence this book has many errors in the KJV.
The King James translators did a marvelous job with the materials they had. While this article is necessary to point out the KJV errors, it should be noted that the errors, omissions and additions made by the RSV, NIV, and other modern translations are much, much WORSE!
King James Version Bible (KJV) Translation Errors
Below is a partial listing of King James Version (KJV) Bible translation errors. The verse(s) in question are given first and then what is the correct or better translation.
Genesis 1:2
KJV Bible: “And the earth was without form, and void; . . . ”
Better Translation: “And the earth became without form, and void; . . . ”
Comments: The word translated “was” is hayah (Hebrew: ×”×™×”, Strong’s Concordance Number #H1961) and denotes a condition different than a former condition, as in Genesis 19:26.
Genesis 10:9
KJV Bible: ” . . . Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.”
Better Translation: ” . . . Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter in place of the LORD.”
Comments: The word “before” is incorrect and gives the connotation that Nimrod was a good guy, which is false. Nimrod placed himself in OPPOSITION to God.
Leviticus 16:8, 10, 26
KJV Bible: “And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. . . . But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. . . . And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.”
Better Translation: “And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for Azazel. . . . But the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement upon it and sent away into the wilderness for Azazel . . . And he that let go the goat for Azazel shall wash his clothes and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.” (Holy Bible in its Original Order Translation)
Comments: The meaning of the word scapegoat is different today than it was during the time of the King James translators. The Online Etymology Dictionary states concerning the word scapegoat and its original meaning that it is:
” . . . a mistranslation in Vulgate of Hebrew ‘azazel (Leviticus 16:8,10,26), which was read as ‘ez ozel or the “goat that departs,” but is actually the proper name of a devil or demon in Jewish mythology . . . ”
Today the word scapegoat has the connotation of someone who is UNJUSTLY blamed for the sins of others. The Azazel goat represents Satan, who is no scapegoat. He is guilty of his part in our sins.
Deuteronomy 24:1
KJV Bible: “When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.”
Better Translation: “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house . . .”
Comments: As the Savior explained in Matthew 19, Moses did not command divorce. This statute is regulating the permission of divorce because of the HARDNESS of the people’s hearts.
2Kings 2:23
KJV Bible: “And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.”
Better Translation: “And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth young men out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.”
Isaiah 65:17
KJV Bible: “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
Better Translation: “For, behold, I am creating [am about to create] new heavens and new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Ezekiel 20:25
KJV Bible: “Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; ”
Better Translation: “Wherefore I permitted them, or gave them over to, false statutes that are not good, and judgments whereby they should not live.”
Comments: God’s laws are good, perfect and right. This verse shows that since Israel rejected God’s laws, He allowed them to hurt themselves by following false man made customs and laws.
Daniel 8:14
KJV Bible: “And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
Better Translation: “And he said unto me, Unto two thousand, three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
Malachi 4:6
KJV Bible: “And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
Better Translation: “And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with utter destruction.”
Comments: The word curse doesn’t give the proper sense here. The phrase should be translated as utter destruction as it is in Zechariah 14:11.
Matthew 5:48
KJV Bible: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
Better Translation: “Become ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
Comments: “Perfect” here means “spiritually mature.” Sanctification is a process of overcoming with the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 24:22
KJV Bible: “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”
Better Translation: “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved alive: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Comments: This verse needs an additional word to clarify its meaning.
Matthew 27:49
KJV Bible: “The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.”
Better Translation: “The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. And another took a spear and pierced His side, and out came water and blood.”
Comments: Matthew 27:49 omits text which was in the original. The Moffatt translation correctly adds it, while the RSV puts it in a footnote: “And another took a spear and pierced His side, and out came water and blood.” The Savior’s death came when a soldier pierced His side, Revelation 1:7.
Matthew 28:1
KJV Bible: “In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.”
Better Translation: “Now late on Sabbath, as it was getting dusk toward the first day of the week came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.”
Comments: The Sabbath does not end at dawn but at dusk.
Luke 2:14
KJV Bible: “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. ”
Better Translation: “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men of God’s good pleasure or choosing.”
Comments: There will be peace on earth among men who have God’s good will in their hearts.
Luke 14:26
KJV Bible: “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
Better Translation: “If any man come to me, and love less by comparison his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
Comments: This verse has the unfortunate translation of the Greek word miseo, Strong’s Concordance Number #3404, as “hate”, when it should be rendered “love less by comparison.” We are not to hate our parents and family!
John 1:17
KJV Bible: “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Better Translation: “For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
Comments: This is another instance of a poor preposition. Moses did not proclaim his OWN law, but the law that GOD gave him to proclaim.
John 1:31, 33
KJV Bible: “And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water . . . And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.”
Better Translation: “And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing in water . . . And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.”
Comments: Pouring or sprinkling with water is not the scriptural method of baptism, but only thorough immersion in water.
John 13:2
KJV Bible: “. . . And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him; ”
Better Translation: ” . . . And during supper, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him; ”
Comments: This verse is correctly translated in the New Revised Standard Version Bible Translation.
Acts 12:4
KJV Bible: “And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.”
Better Translation: “And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Passover to bring him forth to the people.”
Comments: The Greek word pascha (Greek: παÌσχα, Strong’s Concordance Number #G3957) in this verse has been inaccurately translated as Easter. This word should be translated as Passover, which agrees with the translation of pascha as Passover as found in Matthew 26:2 and other verses.
1Corinthians 1:18
KJV Bible: “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
Better Translation: “For the preaching of the cross is to them that are perishing foolishness; but unto us which are being saved it is the power of God.”
Comments: Salvation is not a destination completely reached in this life. Believers must endure and remain faithful to God to the end of their lives before being fully saved. (See Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, 2Timothy 2:10, etc.)
1Corinthians 15:29
KJV Bible: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
Better Translation: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the hope of the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the hope of the dead?”
2Corinthians 6:2
KJV Bible: “(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) ”
Better Translation: “(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in a day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) ”
Comments: This verse in the New Testament is a quote from Isaiah 49:8 which writes about a day, NOT the day, of salvation. The day of salvation is not the same for each individual. The firstfruits have their day of salvation during this life. The rest of humanity will have their full chance at salvation in the second resurrection.
2Thessalonians 2:10
KJV Bible: “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ”
Better Translation: “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that are perishing; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ”
1Timothy 4:8
KJV Bible: “For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. ”
Better Translation: “For bodily exercise profiteth for a little time: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. ”
1Timothy 6:10
KJV Bible: “For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”
Better Translation: “For the love of money is a root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”
Hebrews 4:8-9
KJV Bible: “For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. ”
Better Translation: “For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.There remaineth therefore a keeping of a sabbath to the people of God. ”
Revelation 14:4
KJV Bible: “These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
Better Translation: “These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being a firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
Comments: This verse should be translated with “a firstfruits” because the 144,000 are not all the firstfruits of God.
Revelation 20:4-5
KJV Bible: “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”
Better Translation: “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.” (New King James Version Bible Translation)
Comments: The last part of verse five, which states “This is the first resurrection.” can seem a bit confusing. This verse refers back to “they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” found in verse 4.
Revelation 20:10
KJV Bible: “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
Better Translation: “And the devil that deceived them were cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
Comments: Verse 10 of Revelation 20 should state “were cast” into the lake of fire because the beast and false prophet were mortal human beings who were burned up in the lake of fire 1,000 years previous to this time (Revelation 19:20). The point is that Satan will be cast into the same lake of fire into which the beast and false prophet were cast a thousand years previously.
Revelation 22:2
KJV Bible: “In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
Better Translation: “In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the health of the nations.”
Which italicized words in the King James Bible are INCORRECT?
No language can be translated word for word into another language. Hebrew and Greek idioms often do not come through clearly into literal English. Thus, beginning in 1560 with the Geneva Bible, translators initiated the practice of ADDING italicized words they felt clarified and made it easier to understand what the original language was stating for a particular verse. The fifty-four King James translators did the same. Many times their added italicized words DO help make the meaning of a particular passage clearer. At other times, however, they erroneously added words based on their biases and misunderstandings of Biblical doctrine.
Matthew 24:24
KJV Bible: “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ”
Comments: This verse should NOT have the italicized words “it were.” It IS possible for the elect to be deceived. We need to be on guard!
Luke 3:23-38
KJV Bible: “And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph . . .”
Comments: The italicized words “the son” are not in the original Greek. Actually, Luke gives the fleshly descent of the Savior through Mary, while Matthew gives the legal descent through Joseph.
John 8:28
KJV Bible: “Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.”
Comments: The “he” in italics was NOT spoken by Jesus. This added word completely obscures the fact that Jesus was claiming to be the great “I AM” of the Old Testament (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58).
Romans 1:7
KJV Bible: “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. ”
Comments: The italicized words “to be” were added in error. True Christians are NOW saints.
1Corinthians 7:19
KJV Bible: “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. ”
Comments: This verse actually NEEDS some italicized words to make the meaning clear, such as: “For circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, rather the important thing is the keeping of the commandments of God.”
Colossians 2:16-17
KJV Bible: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. ”
Comments: These verses can only be properly understood if the italicized word “is” in verse 17 is left out. The message of these verses is to NOT let men judge you as doing wrong when you observe God’s holy days, new moons and sabbaths; let the body of Christ (the Church) do the judging.
1Timothy 3:11
KJV Bible: “Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.”
Comments: The “their” is unwarranted and not implied in the original language.
2Peter 2:5
KJV Bible: “And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; ”
Comments: This verse should not have “person, a” in it. Noah was the eighth preacher of righteousness.
1John 2:23
KJV Bible: “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. ”
Comments: The phrase in italics was added based upon the Latin text and is not in the original Greek language for the verse.
King James Version Bible Punctuation Errors
Luke 23:43
KJV Bible: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Better Translation: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Comments: This verse has been used by some to claim that Jesus went straight to heaven at His death. The original Greek did not have punctuation marks as we do today. The clarifying comma after “thee” should be moved to after the words “To day.” The believing malefactor would be with Christ in the paradise of the redeemed when he was resurrected not right after his death but FAR INTO THE FUTURE as part of the second resurrection of the dead.
Mark 16:9
KJV Bible: “Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”
Better Translation: “Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”
Comments: There is a missing implied comma between “risen” and “early” and there should be no comma after the word “week.” Jesus was NOT resurrected on a Sunday morning. Jesus died on a Wednesday and was resurrected Saturday evening, a FULL three days as was prophecied.
Erroneous Additions to the King James Version Bible
The following additions should be DELETED from the King James Version Bible. These additions were derived from the Latin Vulgate, a Roman Catholic Bible translation created by Jerome in 338 A.D. His translation was based on CORRUPTED Greek texts.
Matthew 27:35
Text to Remove: “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.”
John 8:9-10
Text to Remove: “being convicted by their own conscience . . . unto the last . . . alone . . . and saw none but the woman . . . those thine accusers.”
Comments: The correct translation of the verse, based on the Greek text, is:
“But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left with the woman being before him. Jesus lifted himself up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’”
Acts 9:5-6
Text to Remove: “it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him . . . .”
Acts 10:6
Text to Remove: “he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do”
Acts 10:21
Text to Remove: “which were sent unto him from Cornelius”
Acts 21:8
Text to Remove: “that were of Paul’s company”
Romans 13:9
Text to Remove: “Thou shalt not bear false witness”
Romans 16:20
Text to Remove: “Amen”
Colossians 1:14
Text to Remove: “through his blood”
Hebrews 2:7
Text to Remove: “and didst set him over the works of thy hands”
Hebrews 11:13
Text to Remove: “and were persuaded of them and embraced them”
Hebrews 12:20
Text to Remove: “or with a dart shot through”
1John 2:23
Text to Remove: “(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also”
1John 5:7-8
Text to Remove: “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth,”
Comments: Most modern translations agree that this was an uninspired addition to the Latin Vulgate to support the unscriptural doctrine of the trinity.
Revelation 1:8
Text to Remove: “the beginning and the ending”
Revelation 1:11
Text to Remove: “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and . . . which are in Asia”
Revelation 1:20
Text to Remove: “which thou sawest”
Revelation 2:17
Text to Remove: “to eat of”
Revelation 5:4
Text to Remove: “and to read”
Revelation 5:14
Text to Remove: “four and twenty . . . him that lives forever and ever”
Revelation 11:1
Text to Remove: “and the angel stood”
Revelation 12:12
Text to Remove: “the inhabiters of”
Revelation 14:5
Text to Remove: “before the throne of God”
Revelation 15:2
Text to Remove: “over his mark”
Revelation 16:7
Text to Remove: “another out of”
Revelation 16:14
Text to Remove: “of the earth and”
Revelation 21:3
Text to Remove: “and be their God”
What verses are MISPLACED in the KJV Bible?
Matthew 23:13-14
Proper Order: “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”
Romans 16:25-27
Proper Order: Romans 16:25-27 belongs AFTER Romans 14:23 and not at the end of the book.
Hebrews 9:28
Proper Order: “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them without sin that look for him shall he appear the second time unto salvation.”
Words LEFT OUT or replaced in KJV Bible that should be added back
Below are some words and phrases that were MISTAKENLY left out or replaced in the King James Version Bible (KJV) that should be added back into God’s word.
Luke 9:50
Verse should read: “And Jesus said to him, Forbid him not, for he is not against you. For whoever is not against you is for you.”
Luke 10:22
Verse should read: “And having turned to the disciples, he said:”
John 1:28
Verse should read: “These things were done in Bethany beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.”
Acts 9:19
Verse should read: “Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at the time in Damascus.”
Acts 20:28
Verse should read: ” . . . the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of the Lord and God, which He purchased with His own blood.”
Philippians 3:3
Verse should read: “serve in (the) Spirit of God” rather than “serve God in the spirit.”
Colossians 1:6
Verse should read: “Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, and is growing, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Colossians 2:13
Verse should read: And you–being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh–you hath He quickened together with him, having forgiven us all the trespasses . . . ”
1Thessalonians 5:21
Verse should read: “Despise not prophesyings, but prove all things . . . .”
2 Timothy 2:19
Verse should read: “Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of (the) Lord depart from iniquity.”
Hebrews 8:8
Verse should read: “For finding fault to them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:”
Hebrews 13:9
Verse should read: “Be not carried away with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.”
1 Peter 2:2
Verse should read: “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation:”
Revelation 2:21
Verse should read: “And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she wills not.”
Revelation 6:12
Verse should read: “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood;”
Revelation 8:7
Verse should read: “The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of the land was burnt up, and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”
Revelation 8:13
Verse should read: “And I beheld, and heard an eagle flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, . . .”
Revelation 11:18
Verse should read: “And the dead were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, . . . ”
Revelation 12:6
Verse should read: “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has there a place prepared of God . . .”
Revelation 13:5
Verse should read: ” . . . and power was given it to make war forty-two months . . . .”
Revelation 14:1
Verse should read: “. . . having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads . . . .”
Revelation 15:3
Verse should read: “And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of nations. ”
Revelation 17:8
Verse should read: ” . . . when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and shall be present . . . .”
Revelation 18:17
Verse should read: ” . . . everyone who sails to any place . . . ”
Revelation 18:20
Verse should read: ” . . . ye holy saints and apostles and prophets.”
Revelation 19:12
Verse should read: ” . . . and on his head were many crowns, having names written, and a name written that no man knew . . . .”
Revelation 19:17
Verse should read: ” . . . gather yourselves together unto the great supper of God . . . ”
Revelation 21:24
Verse should read: “And the nations shall walk by means of its light.”
Revelation 22:19
Verse should read: “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the tree of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
Revelation 22:21
Verse should read: Should close with “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all of the saints. Amen.”
Conclusion
The King James Version Bible is a word-for-word translation. Other translations, such as the New International Version (NIV), are meaning-for-meaning translations. The multitude of modern translations have not captured the elegance and beauty, NOR THE OVERALL ACCURACY of the King James Version. C. S. Lewis sagely remarked, “Odd the way the less the Bible is read, the more it is translated.” In spite of its imperfections, the King James Version remains a masterpiece.
I take back my last compliment. (sigh) Don’t you think you could have made your point with only a couple bible verses? Did you really need to cut and paste the whole Bible?
My favorite all time mis-translation in most bibles:
KJV:
1 Timothy 2:11-12 (King James Version)
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
NIV:
1 Timothy 2:11-12 (New International Version)
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
Paul’s letters are already difficult to interpret because they are like listening to one side of a telephone conversation, but faulty translations only further complicate our understanding of his words. There are a few key words that are conveniently mistranslated in 1 Timothy 2: 11-15.
Hesuchios/Hesuchia: Traditionalists normally translate this word as “silence†(at least in passages concerning women), but the word in all other places is translated as “peacefulness†“Peaceable†or “quietness.†The word does not carry the meaning of literal silence or absence of speech, but of an atmosphere or presence in which learning should take place. Strong’s Greek Dictionary defines hesuchios/hesuchias as “properly, keeping one’s seat,†“stillness†“undisturbed,†“undisturbing,†and “peaceable.â€
When Paul has absence of speech in mind, he uses the term “sigao.†The same word is used just nine verses earlier and is translated as “peaceable,†1 Timothy 2:1-2. Hesuchios/hesuchia is translated as quiet/quietness in 1 Thess. 4:11, 2 Thess. 3:12, 1 Peter 3:4. None of these verses are about silence, as in the literal absence of speech, but a tranquil quietness or peaceable presence/environment. This fits the context much better than a literal silence, since Paul just rebuked the men in the congregation for praying while angry and quarreling. Obviously, this would NOT be the optimum environment for anyone to learn in. Thus, Paul tells Timothy to make sure the woman can learn in quietness or peacefulness, and not amid the chaos that was taking over church meetings.
Paul also instructs that women should learn in full submission. This is not a unique request asked only of women, but men are also suppose to learn in full submission to the gospel and sound teaching. The reason this command is directed toward women here is only because teaching women in the same way as men was still a revolutionary practice and still repulsive to many men, believers or not.
Now, onto the grand-daddy of mistranslations and controversy….
“…nor to have authority over [authentein] a man…â€
Exousia is the normal word used for “authority,†a carrying out of one’s official duties. But this is not the word Paul uses here. He instead picks the word authentein and it is the ONLY time this word appears in the New Testament. Exousia, however, appears over 100 times. Other uses of authentein from the same time period show that this word does not simply mean legitimate or routine authority, but carries violent, sexual, and dominating meanings.
Authentein.
It cannot be stressed enough how unusual this word is, especially for Paul. Paul writes about authority quite a bit and he never uses authentein as a synonym for legitimate, godly authority. For most mentions of authority, he uses exousia. Louw and Nida’s Lexicon lists 12 common ancient Greek words that are synonyms for routine or legitimate authority, exousia being the most common throughout the new testament. There are 47 words that are synonyms for legitimate “rule†or “governing.†Yet Paul uses none of these words in 1 Timothy 2:11, he chooses the unusual authentein.
We do not find any evidence that authentein, in any of its forms, connotates a routine or legitimate authority until the late third to fourth centuries, far too removed from Paul’s era to provide relevant meanings and contexts. And even once the word took on a less severe meaning in later centuries, THIS passage was ALWAYS been understood as Paul forbidding women to dominate a man, not simply exercise legitimate Christ-like authority. Consider these early translations:
Old Latin Version from the second – fourth century translates this verse as “I permit not a woman to teach, neither to dominate a man {neque dominari in viro}.
The Vulgate, from the second to fourth century, translates this verse as “I permit not a woman to teach, neither to domineer over a man {neque dominari in virum}.
“There is a basically unbroken tradition, stemming from the oldest version and running down to the twenty first century, that translates authentein as “to dominate†and not “to exercise authority over.â€-Linda Belleville
It is not until the 1500s that the verb authentein used in this verse changes from the drastically negatively-charged “to dominate/domineer†to a slightly water-downed phrase, “to usurp authority†(thanks, King James). Still different from exercising legitimate authority, but much less forceful than the violent and even sexual connotations of the original authentein. The King James version asserts that women are not to wrestle authority or seize it from men. No believer is permitted to usurp authority or act in self-interest over others. It is not until after World War II that authentein really gets the botched-translated: “to exercise/assume authority over.†That’s right, less than 80 years ago! So, the notion that women may never exercise godly authority within the body based on this verse is completely unbiblical, both logically and historically.
Exegetical Fallacies in Interpreting 1 Timothy 2:11–15
This is by far the best article I’ve read on 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Linda Belleville, a new testament professor, put together a thorough and compelling paper on 5 exegetical fallacies concerning 1 Timothy 2:11-12 : Contextual/historical, Lexical, Grammatical, Cultural, and Doctrinal. She provides a thorough survey of the early uses of authenteo, in all its forms. This is a MUST read to gain a proper understanding of the egalitarian position.
Catherine C. Kroeger also put together a brilliant survey of authentein (and all it’s sister-nouns/adjectives) uses from before Paul up until the third and fourth centuries. I would particularly challenge Tonya and Catrina to read these articles in full before giving me CBMW rebuttals.
These combined articles find that early uses of authentein (in its noun, verb, and adjective forms) collectively mean “criminal mastermind,†“a perpetrator,†“one who slays with his own hand,†“self-murder,†“women who can command domestic and sexual services from their male concubines,†“incestuous sex and murder,†“religious sexual orgies,†“to dominate,†“to control,†“to restrain,†and “to domineer.â€
Hardly the meaning we find in modern translations of 1 Timothy 2:11.
One of the earliest meanings to authentein is the act of murder or the act of violence.
Wisdom of Solomon 12:6, an apocrypha book translated into ancient Greek, considered “scripture†by both Jews and Christians until the second century AD, uses a form of authentein.
“With their priests out of the midst of their idolatrous crew, and the parents, that killed with their own hands [authentas] souls destitute of help.â€
Ancient Greek grammarians and lexicographers define authentein as “to dominate,†“to control, restrain, and domineer.†It is also classified as a “vulgar†term, possibly because of it’s sexual uses.
Other notable uses of the word include:
Josephus, the famous Jewish historian from Paul’s own time, used the noun form, authenten, to describe the “author†of a poisonous drink. Diodorus of Sicily wrote about the “sponsors†(authentas) of daring plans and the “perpetrators†(authentas) of a crime. John Chrysostom, an early church father, used the same word, authentia to express “sexual license†or perverse sexual practices. Clement, another early church father, linked the word with women involved in sexual orgies.
Catherine Kroeger makes an excellent analysis of the implications of the original meaning of authentein:
“Chrysostom [the early church father] uses autheritia to denote “sexual license.†If the word in this context refers to sexual behavior, it puts a quite different interpretation on the entire passage. For instance, if we were to translate the passage, ‘I forbid a woman to teach or discuss higher algebra with a man,’ we would understand the prohibition to be directed against instruction in mathematics. Suppose it read, ‘I forbid a woman to teach or talk Japanese with a man.’ Then we infer that the injunction applies to the teaching of language. ‘I forbid a woman to teach or dangle a man from a high wire’ would presuppose that the instructor was an aerialist. ‘I forbid a woman to teach or engage in fertility practices with a man’ would imply that the woman should not involve a man in the heretical kind of Christianity which taught licentious behavior as one of its doctrines. Such a female heretic did indeed ‘teach to fornicate’ in the Thyatiran church mentioned in Revelation 2:20 (cf. 2:14f.; Num. 25:3; 31:15f.).
Too often we underestimate the seriousness of this problem for the New Testament church. A passage in 2 Peter expresses concern not only for those drawn into this error but also for the illegitimate children which it produced:
‘But Israel had false prophets as well as true; and you likewise will have false teachers among you. . . . Having eyes full of adultery, that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls, an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children which have forsaken the right way … following the way of Balaam…. They utter big empty words, and make of sensual lusts and debauchery a bait to catch those who have barely begun to escape from their heathen environment (2:1,14f.,18).’â€
Others have conducted in depth word studies on authentein with similar results…
Dr. David H. Scholer sites Leeland Edward Wilshire’s exhaustive study of the word authentien.
“Wilshire is the first to use the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae (TLG) computer database, which contains virtually all three thousand ancient Greek authors from Homer to A.D. 600. The database showed that authentein and its cognates occurred about 330 times and over a large number of centuries almost exclusively meant “a perpetrator of a violent act, either murder or suicide.â€
But there is no evidence from the first century that authentein means ordinary or legitimate authority. Nothing exists until the late third and fourth centuries to suggest other meanings, and even then, the verse in question still translates authentein as “dominating men†or “domineer over men.â€
Paul is not allowing a woman to teach others to dominate men, to teach the domination of men, nor to dominate a man themselves, but to be peaceable (heshucias). This verse has nothing to do at all with mature, trained christian women exercising their spiritual gifts and serving the body through teaching, preaching, or leading. These were women led astray by false teaching, whom Paul is correcting in these verses and who must start at the beginning with full submission to the gospel and sound teaching.
He ties in the creation story to draw a correlation between Eve being deceived by the voice of false teaching and these women. It is a reminder to the church of the devastating effects of false teaching and deception.
I know someone is going to say, “Well, if Paul is forbidding dominating others as opposed to holding mere authority and it’s wrong for all believers to dominate each other, why does Paul only address this to women?†Consider that HERE IN THIS LETTER, Paul is correcting the ones exhibiting specific behaviors. Consider that Paul only tells the men to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger or disputing. Now, just because he only directs the men here in this verse, does that mean women shouldn’t lift up holy hands? Does it mean women are free to be angry and constantly disputing in or out of church? Of course not. But the men in the body were the ones exhibiting this behavior, so Paul only addresses them, even though it’s inappropriate for all believers to behave that way. Likewise, he only addresses the women about dominating and seizing authority through false teachings, possibly sexual ones, because they were the ones doing it in this instance.
Consider this reality of ancient Greek culture pointed out by Catherine Koeger:
“Virtually without exception, female teachers among the Greeks were courtesans, such as Aspasia, who numbered Socrates and Pericles among her students. Active in every major school of philosophy, these hetairai (high-class, intellectual prostitues) made it evident in the course of their lectures that they were available afterwards for a second occupation. But the Bible teaches that to seduce men in such a manner was indeed to lead them to slaughter and the halls of death (cf. Prov. 2:18; 5:5; 7:27; 9:18). The verb authentein is thus peculiarly apt to describe both the erotic and the murderous.â€
It becomes overwhelming clear from the the well-documented culture of Ephesus coupled with the original word meanings used in 1 Timothy 2:11-12, that this mandate is not a prohibition against all women teaching/preaching/leading in the church. It’s simply absurd to keep gifted and qualified women from teaching the truth of the gospel, leading church bodies in the ways of Jesus, or simply contributing their gifts by vocally participating in the gatherings of the entire body because of a verse that was originally a disciplinary action against women at Ephesus. who were lead astray by false teaching.
Sorry catalyst
Haha!
Proverbs 30:5-6, Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
A master piece, written by the Master of masters. Prepositionally phrased to a perfection.
Those of us that believe the KJV is the inerrant Word of God would like to find out by WHOSE authority those who counter it, use as proofs. Certainly not the likes of Wescott and Hort who were into the occult. Nor those writer/translators who associated themselves with corrupt texts from Alexendria. It is interesting to note as anecdotal evidence that since the propogation of these so-called ‘biblical’ texts which are steeped in New Age ideology, there has been more movement of the occult and less true revival. You have more sodomites and less godly family life. Perhaps, all we really need to do is to compare how bad civilization has become since the advent of these ‘modern translations’ verses life as was known before modernism took root.
Yelena Kersha
I assure you I am no cultist. I love God and Jesus is my savior. It is weak to not look up and study the language of contentious bible verses to find out what God was really saying.
A long time ago (almost 13 years now) I decided that the whole bible was God’s word and I would live by every word. At that time I did not know what every word was. I read the NIV, used strongs on the KJV and got the “basics” down.
Then as my walk continued I came across some verses like 1 Timothy 2:11-12 that did not seem to fit. On these verses we can not accept an English translation we need to go back to the Greek (or Hebrew in the Old Testament in some other verses). Then we can get a better understanding of what God is telling us, and this perfect contract (covenant) we entered into with him.
Former NBCC,
Wow! That was a lot of work to post that, and I want you to know I read it and found it interesting. Thanks for your effort!
To those who think the KJV is the only ‘true’ version, I’m not against reading it, in fact, when I was first saved, ALL of the study books for the Bible were linked to the KJV. However, it is silly to think that there have been no advances in the knowledge of the ancient languages of scripture! If you only use the KJV, you are still in the year 1611. Think about it.
Do you mean things like McDonalds, the drinking age, and Jersey Shore? Or do you mean things like electricity, antibiotics and hot showers?
Whathesaid: I would love to take credit for all that work .. but they are cut and paste from websites that I had previously looked at in another bible study I was doing.
I wish I had the sites I could give credit – my English professor would give me an F … but she hated me anyway
In studying this topic recently, I found the argument should not be starting with the translations, but what manuscripts we use to come up with the translations. I think the big problem with all the new translations are they use manuscripts that were set aside over a thousand years ago, and put aside the manuscripts that were trusted by the church for 1800 years. The Alexandrian texts used were not copied, and in good shape (telling us they were not used) and yet they are given more weight these days than the multitude of manuscripts used in the church through the age. This is obviously a short summary of a long discussion…but the differences between the manuscripts are massive and cause much confusion and give cause to doubt the accuracy of scripture and the ability of God to preserve it through time.
Craig, for a total dunce like me, can you give the quick, layman’s version of what the differences in the manuscripts create?
At first glance, the KJV and NKJV (or NASB or NLT for that matter) seem to say pretty much the same things, but in different wording.
Are there major theological differences/interpretations in the 2?
Very curious, wanting to see your response…
Thanks!
Good question Anom. I thought they were the same for years as well…but I got into some discussions with a relative that thinks Jesus is the son of God, but not part of the Trinity. He believed that Jesus is a created being. They use the argument that in 1 John 5:7 this verse should not be included (because it was not in the Alexandrian text):
I subsequently have talked to Jehovah’s Witnesses who claim the same thing.
What we are not told is that there was a school in Alexandria headed by a heretic named Arias. He didn’t believe Jesus is God…so you tell me..what manuscripts do you think were tampered with? There are many more examples where the “new” manuscripts have deviated from the ones trusted by the church for centuries.
Another verse I just came across is:
Proverbs 17:8 (NASB)
A bribe is a charm in the sight of its owner;Wherever he turns, he prospers.
I think it is safe to say this is not true since several scriptures tell us the opposite.
I look at how God preserved the Old Testament, and subsequently allowed us to see how well it was preserved with the dead sea scrolls. I think He has done the same with the New Testament with the preserved documents that were used throughout the church. I think the new versions are corrupt from the starting point (manuscripts) and made worse through squishy translations. Not to mention, there is big money in coming up with a “better” translation – so why not keep pumping them out so we can find the one that fits us the best – rather than keeping with the ones used by our forefathers.
Now you asked if there are major theological differences between the two. On the major things, I don’t think there are direct differences. I do think there is enough difference to cause us to question things (as I mentioned with the divinity of Christ). I just don’t want to tolerate the addition of manuscripts that come from a heretic hotbed in the early church in my bible versions. Call me old fashioned, but I don’t see any reason to risk it when the manuscripts God preserved for 1800 years did just fine.
Side note: I don’t think the KJV translation is inspired or perfect, but it is translated from manuscripts that were preserved providentially by God.
Thanks Craig, great insight. I’m sticking to what scripture says.
For a good summary of the battle, and the Victories God has won in the for truth, read King James Bible Proofs
You can do a find on Schaff also and see how he faired in the battle.
John Vain:
I am really sorry for you. You are too unconcerned with God to care enough to read his real word. You want to canonize a version of the bible that was written by sinners who had an agenda of using the bible to allow their king to replace Jesus as our Lord. Sinners who thought it better to serve a tyrant then God. Sinners who accused (other sinners) the catholics of betraying the word while doing the same.
I really am sorry. I am saddened by the thought that there are a lot of people who take God so lightly.
Please do not be lazy and take the 1st English version of the bible and think that is “old enough”. Learn, take it all the way back to the original texts when possible. study and take what God says with the up-most reverence.
Thank you all for an interesting discussion. I too read it all.
Growing up, I used KJV because there wasn’t much else out there except NAS. I learned to appreciate the poetic cadence of the translation as well as the words. (Shakespeare was a breeze for me in school; so reading KJV had its merits.)
Hearing this discussion explains why NIV bugs me so much. Our church uses it, and I bring my own Bible to follow along in the readings. The word choices in NIV are so WEAK! I believe God meant His word to be alive and powerful, not half-asleep and insipid. The original words in the source languages are poetic, descriptive and pointed. But after being put through the NIV filter, it tastes like white bread.
But I’m right with Former NBCC: if you want to know what was said in the first place, go to the historically accepted source. There are many free online sites. My personal favorite is here.
I love blueletterbible.org. I use that for all my Strongs concordance. I also use biblegateway.com for topical or quick scripture searches.
The internet is such a blessing. We layman Christians can have all the tools that used to be afforded to only PHD Scholars in Theology 100 years ago. We can have them for free, we can study and have all the knowledge God intended us to have.
Besides having the accurate account of the bible through these tools we also have the Holy Spirit to guide us.
Blue Letter Bible, why I’ve heard of that place. Yes, it’s a testamony to how accurate the King James Bible really is. Former NBCC Member sounds like some cat chasing his tail in the wind. You are either a fraud, working for Lucifer, your real father. Or you are too stupid to get it.
John, we like funny insults around here. I liked the bit about Lucifer but you really lost it with the “too stupid” comment.
Common buddy, pick it up. You’re better than that.
hmmm I must be too stupid. That is defiantly it. No I kinda like the “work of the devil” .. that means I can go around saying that the devil made me do it and not be held accountable for my actions.
REALLY? That is your argument? WOW!
John: I said I use the kjv, I use it with Strongs concordance usually on blueletterbible.org …
It does sadden me to think that your for real about this issue. I really did think you where making a joke “The best guard I’ve found is the 1611 Authorized KJV edition. No room for error because there are no errors.”
The reason why it saddens me is because it is easier for you to believe an English version of the bible is canonized and would refuse to look up scriptures for yourself.
This is how so many people get off on Evil Theology that is like cancer in the Church. Killing people – destroying lives – Yes the enemy has his way with people who do not take his word sincerely. If your not reverent to his word then you are not reverent to him.
You jump to judgment too quickly, I do search out the scriptures and try every word. I have also tried your words in your previous postings and found you’re additions to be the same as everyone else who doubts that there are absolutes in life, Law, Mathematics and God’s Holy Word. As if you have evolved like all the other self-righteous people of this nation. Yet if one were to realy dig for truth, they would find evolution to be nothing but propaganda, stating that 0+0 = infinity. Biggest inequality I’ve ever seen! Perhaps you’ve been watching too much television. I know enough to make an absolute statement that God hates Hollywood and God hates the Television Evangilist, who are knowingly leading people to hell. So go ahead and laugh, hell isn’t a laughing matter.. Perhaps you should think about which road you are really on. There are only two paths according to the laws which dictate reallity. The wide path, which leads to destruction, and the narrow path, which leads to eternal life. We are not going to make it to heaven based on some magical prayer, as Billy Graham would like you to believe.
REALLY? BILLY GRAHAM?
Oh My, please entertain me and tell me what could be the way if not the sinners prayer? – This ought to be good.
What denomination are you anyway?
Former,
I hate to side with John in any way at all, seeing as he is a rambling lunatic, but I have to agree with his Billy Graham statement.
Why do you need to say a sinners prayer to get to heaven and is there anything even remotely Biblical about it?
Johnpaul:
Ok, so I guess nobody has ever challenged this to me before, in my short 13 years of salvation. I see the case being made that salvation is at baptism on the net. I will go ahead and do research and study before I “rush” to a doctrine change.
Regardless of the “sinner prayer” doctrine being right or wrong or somewhere between to make the case against Billy Graham is stretching it.
Thanks,
Agreed.
It was a couple of years back for me that I sat and wondered what the purpose of the Sinners Prayer was. Biblically speaking, Acts 16:31 seems to sum up the basic requirements for salvation (believe in the Lord…).
Salvation, in my opinion, is more a heart issue than a word issue. Just cause you say a prayer it doesn’t make it true.
Of course, its hard to count how many people “you have saved” without the sinners prayer. I think thats why most pastors stick to it.
In the end, I don’t find this prayer worth much but it seems harmless enough.
Former: I know you asked Johnpaul, but can I add my 2-cents worth?
I think the Bible is clear that “believe” is the key term. Just a few key verses:
The first instance of that word is in Genesis ch 11, 12(?) (I’ll look it up if you like) where it says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.
The big indictment against Israel in the desert after the Exodus was that they did not believe God. (Psalm 78?)
Jesus said, “The work of God is this: to believe on the One He has sent.” (John) And then there is the verse JP quoted.
We all know how to find out the biblical definition of believe. Look at the parable of the sower and his seed. Jesus addressed those who — in essence — said the Sinner’s Prayer, but went no further.
The problem I have with making baptism the criteria for salvation is this: “Salvation belongs to our God” (Rev 4?). Free gift. Nothing on our part. All grace on His part. Our only “work” is belief.
When the realization sinks in (through the work of the HS) that I am doomed, and my only hope is the Cross of Jesus Christ, and I believe God that He died for me — then I am born again.
I also think the Bible is clear that belief (or faith) is ongoing, a discipline. With the help of the Holy Spirit, we “learn obedience” — another way of saying we set our hearts to believe His word, and invite His work to change our thinking and our actions.
Here I am, 40+ years later, still on this journey. Not because I was baptized, but because He provided salvation, and I merely believe Him.
Speaking without a microphone, in this day and age, will never carry into the ears of the American people. The satanic doctrines, which has infiltrated into every occurrence of our lives, are amplified at us via television, radio, rock music, country music, church speakers, politicians, news media, magazines, and the hype has predominantly lulled Christians to sleep.
Jesus said that those who serve God, will serve Him in Spirit and in Truth. Let me share with you, the raw truth of this day and age.
The truth is this: People are so wise in their own eyes, why, they don’t have a clue that our Government aims to deceive the American people into this false security and a false religion. In order to destroy them and their freedoms, freedoms to serve God, and knowing HE reigns eternal. The American people, including Christians, have no inspiration of truth in them whatsoever, thus leaving themselves as prey for the enemy. They are unaware that one of the biggest qualifications to be a President, Judge, Senator, a cop, or an outstanding citizen, is to believe that Lucifer is going to win the battle on that day when Jesus returns. They are unaware of the wicked, diabolical, Beastly mind-set, that demands the world population must be at 500, 000, 000. Mass genocide is their goal, guised under the cloak of an unprecedented deception that our Government is acting for our own goodwill, plus the mask of brainwashing people through the hypnotic powers of television and the News Media. The brainwashed do not know that they are brain-washed; for look at the support our murdering troops get in Iraq and Afghanistan, while the questions are never answered as to why they used depleted Uranium on the Iraqis. Why are we training our beloved troops with a motto, “I want to kill somebody� Why did our Government bring down the twin towers, just so they could invoke war on innocent lives that had nothing to do with it? We will only know the answers when Jesus returns because the truth never gets revealed by The National Security Agency. Thus the ignorant will look for truth via the News media and news papers and desperately believe the lies thereof. Yup, people are walking so proud, they haven’t a clue that they could be deceived, just like what Jesus said in Mat 24:24 “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. “
Regardless of the prayers of today’s, so-called saints, for God to bless America; the United States will be destroyed, like Sodom and Gomorrah because her sins have reached unto the heavens, and her stench deserves damnation; if she doesn’t turn away from her sins, to say the least. But what does the book of Revelation tell us? Please allow me to clarify. God is going to give all men a chance to repent. (The word repent is stated seven times throughout the book of Revelation.) Notice what is stated in Revelation 9:21: “ Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. “ (See also Proverbs, 1:20-33) Revelations 18 describes the atrocities’ of the great harlot. And who are you America, that you should escape the wrath of God? Jesus mentioned; however, that men will love wickedness more than God. It’s the wicked who are going to be taken out of this world, not the righteous. (I know a KJV verse that states, we as followers of Christ shall remain here on earth. And the KJV doesn‘t lie, not one word.)
There is a price to be paid if one can be convinced that God doesn’t exist, or that His Word is flawed. There is a price to be paid when we listen to the doctrines of demons, more than the doctrine which drips like the dew, and taste like honey, which is God’s Holy Word. That price is your very own soul. So what are you going to say to God when He asks you to give an answer concerning the additions of His Word?
I know this one truth, and I’m happy that I know it. I don’t want to be in anyone’s shoes on judgment day, who proclaimed that God’s Word was errant.
Wow.
Too good to pass up. I tried, but I couldn’t. John you have become the exact person you are warning against. “The brainwashed do not know they are brainwashed.” Beautiful. Ever think to apply that statement to yourself? What about pulling the plank out of your own eye? I know many friends who serve in government who are not pawns of Lucifer and haven’t given allegiance to anyone but God-how do you explain that? John my fear is for you that you have become like the Pharisees and Saducees in Jesus’ time. (They still have those in the KJV right?)
We will both stand before God on judment day, we’ll let Him be the judge.
John Vian:
I do not think I will respond to any of your accusations. You are not well. Go seek healing of your mind from Christ, Seek deliverance from Fear, and please Seek wisdom and discernment.
Thank you,
Mr. Vain,
I am jealous. Here it is the middle of the afternoon and you are already drunk.
How many beers does it take these days?
[Comment ID #38236 Will Be Quoted Here]
Still no answer to the question posed…..by what authority do you choose what to believe?
I will ask you one question. Answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
John’s baptism—was it from heaven, or from men?
Tell me!
How loosely you use the word Authority. Only God has Authority, you have nothing but a big mouth. I suggest you spend five hours a day in prayer, and repent in dust and ashes for your arrogance and pride. Jesus said that if we will humble ourselves, He will lift us up.
Well, it’s been fun. But we’re not really accomplishing much with this thread anymore, so I’m going to shut it down.