Who is Really Deceived? Pastor Wendell Smith or Craig & C.T.P.?
Posted on May 2nd, 2008 by David Mackin into the The City Church, David Mackin Writes: category
The apostles of Christ warn us that self-deception is a very real possibility even for Christians (Galatians 6:3,7; James 1:16,26; I Timothy 2:14; 2 Timothy 3:13). What is self-deception? How can a true believer actually be deceived? In our discussions of the Prosperity Doctrine and the Mandatory Tithe, I have noticed that both sides of these issues will, at times, accuse the other side of "being deceived." Here is a case in point:
Both Craig and C.T.P. left The City Church in Kirkland, WA where Wendell & Gini Smith are the senior pastors. When asked by Serj why they left, they made the following comments:
“It’s not about the cars or houses, it’s about deception and manipulation for the end result of fleecing the flock. False doctrine caused me to leave the church…Paul told Timothy to watch his doctrine closely because it would save his soul and those who hear him. Why do people who take doctrine seriously leave that church? You do the math.” (Craig, City Business Church blog, July 21st, 2007 at 12:41 am)
“My reasons for leaving are closely related to Craig’s. We both saw the deception and the false teaching. The pastors there are not open to hearing any critical voices speak, even if in love - so that gave us no option, but to move on, although it is hard to stop talking about it because of all of our friends that are still there…They [the pastors of the fastest church planting church in the nation] don’t buy $500 trash cans (like City does) or $4,000 flower pots (like City does), and yes that is true - I was a custodian at City so I know.” (C.T.P., City Business Church blog, July 21st, 2007 at 8:54 am).
After reading what these two former members said about why they left The City Church, I found the following comments from Pastor Wendell Smith, Craig and C.T.P.'s former pastor, most interesting:
“Over the years, I have known a few men who chose to debate the issue of tithing with me. Rationalizing their view based on their own limited perusing of Scripture, they decided to take a stand against being ‘obligated’ to give ten percent of their income. They believed the New Testament way was to give as the Spirit led. But always, upon review of their financial records after their departure, we discovered they were giving far less. Why would the Holy Spirit lead them to give less than what both Old and New Testament Scriptures teach? I believe the wrong spirit led them to the wrong doctrine and to the wrong decision! They missed the bigger issues of having a right heart attitude toward God, loving His Word, wanting to please Him, and understanding covenant relationship.” Wendell Smith, Prosperity with a Purpose, The City Church, Kirkland, Washington, 2005, p. 158
Both sides in this discussion accuse the other of being involved in some form of deception. Craig and C.T.P. accuse Pastor Wendell of being deceived by false teaching and using it to manipulate his flock for personal financial profit. Pastor Wendell accuses those who questioned his doctrine of tithing of not loving God's Word, and, therefore, opening themselves up to being deceived by a "wrong spirit." In my view, for any Christian to accuse another believer of being deceived is a very serious matter. What do you think?
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May 2nd, 2008 at 3:23 pm
spws says …
…review financial records after their departure…. like he really cares or would make the time…
…. they were giving far less…. how does HE know what their income is??
….less than what the NT scriptures teach…. refresh my memory.. what does it teach??
May 2nd, 2008 at 4:52 pm
“Why would the Holy Spirit lead them to give less than what both Old and New Testament Scriptures teach? I believe the wrong spirit led them to the wrong doctrine and to the wrong decision!”
That’s just sick, claiming to know what the Holy Spirit would ask of anyone but yourself. Wrong doctrine? Maybe different than yours, but it’s arrogant to assume that only yours is the right doctrine.
“They missed the bigger issues of having a right heart attitude toward God, loving His Word, wanting to please Him, and understanding covenant relationship.”
Well yes, having a right heart attitude toward God is the bigger issue, not if and how much we should tithe! And wanting to please Him, not obeying our pastor or our church’s law, should be our ultimate goal. We are already automatically under the new covenant because of the cross, there’s nothing more required of us to enter into that relationship with Jesus.
May 2nd, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Hey Wendall, maybe the Holy Spirit was leading them to give their money to the poor…you know, like Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler to do? Just because you didn’t get to pocket their 10% doesn’t mean they didn’t give it.
I have no problem at all of accusing Wendall Smith of being deceived…in fact its a much kinder accusation…if Wendall isn’t decieved than he’s a crook…I don’t believe that Wendall is dishonest…he’s just deceived.
May 2nd, 2008 at 8:51 pm
SPeWS jumps around in that paragraph like a man with a hot foot! It doesn’t make much sense to me … he acknowledges the men’s objection to the tithe, notes that they studied scripture (it’s a cheap shot to say their bible study was a ‘perusal’ and ‘limited’) - he even acknowledges what the NT says about “spirit led” giving … then he changes horses abruptly in mid stream and goes to their financial records, faulting for not tithing … OF COURSE THEY WEREN’T TITHING YOU IDIOT! THEY STUDIED THE SCRIPURES, DETERMINED THE TITHE DOCTRINE WAS NOT BIBLICAL, AND RESISTED YOUR FALSE TEACHING!
Let me ask this question of SPeWS - IF he, or Frank, or any other of the tithe preachers wanted to debate the tithe issue, there’s several apologists here who would be up to the task of debate - and I have NO doubt SPeWS, Frank, et al, would limp off with their tail between their legs.
I know David is preparing a book, my friend Dr. Russell E. Kelly (author of “Should the Church Teach Tithing”) makes an appearance here once in awhile, and even this old dog has written a paper on Exposing the Tithe Lie.
Must take a lot of intestinal fortitude to proclaim something like that in a book about your detractors, and not offer them equal time, or offer to debate them in front of your congregation. As such, Wendell’s argument in that book is pure straw-man. Whoop-de-freakin’-do. He wrote about an imaginary debate with a couple nameless, faceless former church members - in which of course he wins and gets in the last word.
You know - Dave - when you write that book, if it’s not already happening to you now - you will wind up debating people via email for a long while. It’s only died down for me because I’ve shut down my old email link. But I did debate them and through the objections I received, the Lord led me into even more truth about the tithe issue. By way of comparison, I received about 20 affirmations for every 1 objection. The objections btw, came either from the pastors with building and staff to fund, or the house prophet who was in cahoots with the pastor.
Dr. Kelly has a group on Yahoo, as I recall and he has regularly debated people on the tithe subject.
So IF the likes of SPeWS really wanted to debate someone who is beyond “limited perusal”, he wouldn’t have to go far to find a sparring partner.
How much you wanna bet he’d never risk a debate with someone who is up to the task?
May 3rd, 2008 at 5:28 am
I love how pastors confirm their tithing doctrine just because tithers happen to give more than Spirit led givers. It’s no wonder that it’s the Mormon cult that out gives all religions and denominations with their tithing legalism, not because they are Spirit-led. The pharisees outdid everyone with their legalism but that doesn’t mean that God was confirming their actions. What do pastors expect if an OT curse was preached on me, and my sanctification was in jeopardy for not tithing.
May 3rd, 2008 at 11:15 am
That’s really presumptuous that Wendell would claim to know these things by a person’s lack of a thing record. Wow.
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Sam, by the way, have you ever compiled a list of all of the “proofs” for the Mandatory Tithe like in a quick check list format? If so, I’d like to have a copy so that I could proof my book and see that it is thorough enough. I am trying not to leave any stone unturned in the matter. The pro-tither, Kevin Conner, told me about Kelly’s online book against the tithe as I have communicated to him about some of his statements on the matter. I was impressed that he said that he had at least begun to read something contrary to the tithing tradition. He said he had to stop when Kelly (I think it was him) said that Melch was a pagan child molester (or something like that)!
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anna, great comments!
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tithes and offerings: your comment about the fallacy of quantification and the LDS cult was phenomenal! by the way, I am researching parallels between LDS and Evangelical and Charismatic pro-tithers to let the readers see them for themselves and decide who they want to follow: Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith! Beautiful insight.
May 3rd, 2008 at 8:22 pm
David Mackin,
I have a page on my website that has a list of over 50 tithing arguments that used for proof that have been debunked. You can see it here.
Arguments used for tithing
-Jared
May 4th, 2008 at 5:43 am
Jared, Thank you very much!
May 4th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Dave,
The way my articles on the Tithe came together, was initially through the Holy Spirit challenging my (learned) doctrine on the tithe. Having demolished that teaching in me with His word (revelation), I posted it on a prophetic mailing list I subscribed to in the spring of 2000. With that post, people began to write me directly with the various arguments their pastors used to convince them to tithe and the Lord then led me in study to debunk those arguments as well.
Last fall I deleted all that stuff from my web site as I felt led to do so, but a compilation of my tithe writings are still available at Clay Sike’s web site at http://www.lighthouseprophecy.com/prophecy/ExposingTheTitheLie.html
Obviously Dave, I’m not a degreed theologian … many of the things the Lord revealed to me had more to do with issues of the heart - opening my eyes to see the injustice of erecting yet another temple on the backs of poor sons and daughters who didn’t have enough to eat … and so often you might feel through my articles the anger and frustration I saw through the Spirit … we may as well shovel the tithe into a furnace, for all the good it does to feed God’s people, clothe the poor, help with medical needs, etc. Where the tithe is used is for buildings, grounds, staff, etc., while the streets are fairly littered with the hungry, sick and dying.
I finally had to take those things down, Dave, because it seems to me that my writings gave people a reason to give less or nothing at all - and they did not understand that instead of 10%, we now give all. That instead of to an institution, we needed to give to each other … I haven’t seen much to encourage me that my efforts prompted right giving, so much as they encouraged people to stop wrong giving. And that just aches me.
Jack
May 4th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Jack, thanks for the reference and all the hard work you put into your tithing studies; i’m sure that they were not a waste; i will take away from your comments a wisdom for the writing of my own book esp about not releasing believers not to give at all to anyone…that is sad
May 4th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Samaritan,
I too have seen the same thing that you have about people finding reasons to give less or nothing at all. I thought about that deeply. Here’s the conclusion that i came up with for my own website. If someone is chained up and in a prison, you first have to unlock the chains and unlock the door, before they use their freedom. It’s just that people who have been locked up for so long in the doctrine of tithing and they automatically are free don’t really understand how to control the freedom when they get out. Sure, they will abuse it. Sure, they will not fully understand the responsibility they actually have with freedom, but keeping them locked up is still not the right thing to do either.
-Jared
May 4th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Samaritan said: “we may as well shovel the tithe into a furnace, for all the good it does to feed God’s people, clothe the poor, help with medical needs, etc. Where the tithe is used is for buildings, grounds, staff, etc., while the streets are fairly littered with the hungry, sick and dying.”
Great point Sam. It amazes me how churches are so focused on the building programs rather than people. Here is a great story that appeared in the SF Chronicle today.
May 4th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/04/BA8MUSL28.DTL
May 4th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
David,
You raise an interesting question concerning the nature of the accusation of deception. Both sides assert the deceived status of the opposing side. This shows how dangerous a claim to truth is, because a claim to truth is really a claim to power. Once I have truth I can deal out judgment with stunning coherency, since the system that makes everything coherent was self-constructed.
Therefore, I think we can best solve this dilemma by dropping this accusation. Instead, let us consult the two most important texts concerning prosperity and tithing, which are the biblical texts and church history. How do the verses used in these arguments best make sense in light of their contexts? Secondly, does the prosperity gospel fit into the context of 2,000 years of church history? Of course, it does not fit. The only context that the prosperity gospel fits into is American 20th century capitalism.
I challenge anyone to provide the name of a church theologian, scholar, pastor, or important figure that taught anything similar to the prosperity gospel pre-1900.
Thus, the prosperity gospel and the mandatory tithe fail to be coherent in the overarching story of scripture and church history. And therefore, we can dismiss it and its advocates with ease.
May 5th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Yikes…this kind of language always brings back such bad memories. Don’t you love how these men manipulate your mind and pluck on your heart strings, questioning your faith in God and calling out your love of His word whenever you question them? It’s so sad. I think there must be a secret pastoral training school where they teach each other how to talk like this. It’s so subtle and under the radar that you barely notice it. But once you are aware you see it in everything that they say and write. That soft jab or mild prod to get you back on their side of the tracks. It really is cultish mind control and very scary.
May 5th, 2008 at 10:26 am
The majority of the arguments on this blog have been anti-tithe and that’s cool. I choose to give my tithes to my church and my offerings to a missionary friend through another church. I have a quick question for Dave or anyone else who wants to answer. What was the early church’s giving like? The church in the book of Acts? Didn’t they give like 45% of their income to their local synagogues?
May 5th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Ex, Your insightful comments deserve a blog article! Fabulous.
I think that those who cringe at our using the word “cult” to describe how some of these kinds of churches function might open their minds a little more as they explore, as you pointed out, the ways of mind control and emotional manipulation (using fear, guilt, status carrots) that are rife in these leaders’ lives.
Recently, I was told the following from a pastor on the phone:
“David, you are so twisted. I don’t want to talk to you anymore because I’m afraid that you might twist me.”
“David, you have not changed at all. You’re still the same. You and I are sooo different.”
Pastor: “David, you don’t even know yourself.”
David: “What exactly do you mean by that comment?’
Pastor: “Oh, never mind…”
May 5th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Former, Great question. I plan to have an entire chapter on this in my upcoming book; it’s too much to go into here.
May 5th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Thanks Dave…I do my best to shine light on this stuff. If you ever pick up Charisma magazine, check out this months letters to the editor. I am the featured responder, picture and all. (I know I just gave away my identity, but I don’t really care.)
All the best.
May 5th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Dave, I think I know what that means - or at least what it would look like for a person not to know himself.
Imagine getting up every morning and lathering up for a shave, but not before introducing yourself to the guy in the mirror.
Sam
May 5th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Please tell me you wrote a letter in response to the Generation Unleashed article? Because that will not make the leadership happy.
May 5th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
No, I wrote in response to all their articles on prosperity preachers and fame/fourtune seeking pastors. I guess they like what I said because they plastered my mug on there and used my quote. However, this is why I believe God has a sense of humor. In the same issue that they decide to run my blast on evangelical prosperity leaders, there is an article about Generation Unleashed, something I completely dispise. So that means all those CBC’ers who don’t like me have to read my words in the same magazine hyping their conference. If Charisma choose to run my letter in any other month I am sure far less people from CBC would have seen it, but that GU article means they all got a copy. Adds more coal to the we hate AC and EK fire.
May 5th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
David,
Thanks for sharing that! It brought a memory back. During the forward together campaign some years ago, I felt uncomfortable with the program.
I gave a CD of a sermon to Theo to listen to, as I wanted someone more mature to evaluate it. When I asked later about it, he told me he had listened to it, and it “pushed his buttons”. He pointed out how manipulating it is to say things like, “if you think this is a good word, then give the Lord a hand!” What if you disagree? What happens if you don’t clap? You stick out like a sore thumb! Pure manipulation! It is just the opposite of hearing from the Lord yourself and doing His will, as spoken of in 2 Corinthians 9:7, “Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or UNDER COMPULSION.”
Theo is gone now, but his love of Christ and wisdom have inspired me and moved me towards freedom in Christ.