The 3 Dirty Words of a User-Friendly, Mega Church Pastor
Posted on May 6th, 2008 by David Mackin into the Uncategorized, David Mackin Writes: category
Will (name changed) attended East Hill Foursquare Church (a mega-church in Gresham, Oregon) for many years. He was there during the days of Jerry Cooke, the pastor who was known for sitting down casually on a stool to preach and before the recent retirement of senior pastor, Ted Roberts, author of, Pure Desire.
Will was a good counselor and blessed many people with his class called, “New Images.” Approx. 2 years before he passed on, I spoke with him over the phone about his long experience at East Hill Church. This is part of what he told me:
Ted Roberts, the senior pastor of East Hill Church at the time, forbad anyone to use three specific words from the pulpit or the platform of the church. The forbidden words were: “sin,” “hell,” and “repentance.” If anyone would ever slip and use any of these words publicly, the pastor would have a talk with him/her in his office.
When the pastor traveled for ministry out of town, Ted would allow Will to preach. Kind of for the fun of it, Will told me that he would purposely let one or more of the pastor’s forbidden words slip out of my mouth just to see what would happen. Each time, his mentioning of one or more of the pastor’s forbidden words would get back to him after he returned home, and the pastor would call him into his office and confront him about it.
This happened so many times, that finally, Will had to resign his church staff position. He just could not see how a church could stay true to the gospel of Jesus Christ or the Bible without ever mentioning the words “sin,” “hell,” or “repentance” from the pulpit.
P.S. Several years ago, Ted Roberts told a Saturday morning class of which I (DM) was a part that the church growth experts were recommending that in order to get more non-churched people to attend church on Sunday mornings, that pastors should cut out their worship services entirely! Ted told the class that he was unwilling to go that far.
Ted Roberts has fairly recently turned the pastoring of East Hill Church over to his son-in-law, Jason Albelo, the son of the director of East Hill Adult Education, Gil Albelo.
Note: Please see "The 3 Dirty Words of a Mega Church Pastor" Part 2 for my follow-up conversation with Ted.
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May 6th, 2008 at 10:20 am
“church growth experts were recommending that in order to get more non-churched people to attend church on Sunday mornings, that pastors should cut out their worship services entirely. Ted told the class that he was unwilling to go that far.”
It is these types of things that have me thinking “where is the church heading?” The visitor or guest (that is the new word being used now, guest) are the ones that are now the focal point of the whole corporate gathering. What about the believers? What about calling people to repentance, what about talking about how sin seperates you from God and if you die without true repentance you will live forever in hell. Literal hell, not a hell that will end and go away at some point in time, not a made place so preaches will get you scared.
Where are we headed?
May 6th, 2008 at 10:31 am
This calls for some lyrics of one of my personal favorite (sadly deceased) artists of all time.
It’s a song about how Satan functions by Keith Green.
Keith Green - no one believes in me anymore
Oh, my job keeps getting easier
As time keeps slipping away
I can imitate your brightest light
And make your night look just like day
I put some truth in every lie
To tickle itching ears
You know I’m drawing people just like flies
‘Cause they like what they hear
I’m gaining power by the hour
they’re falling by the score
You know, it’s getting very simple now
‘Cause no one believes in me anymore
Oh, heaven’s just a state of mind
My books read on your shelf
And have you heard that God is dead
I made that one up myself
They dabble in magic spells
They get their fortunes read
You know they heard the truth
But turned away and followed me instead
I used to have to sneak around
But now they just open their doors
You know, no one’s watching for my tricks
Because no one believes in me anymore
Everyone likes a winner
With my help, you’re guaranteed to win
And hey man, you ain’t no sinner
You’ve got the truth within
And as your life slips by
You believe the lie that you did it on your own
But don’t worry
I’ll be there to help you share our dark eternal home
Oh, my job keeps getting easier
As day slips into day
The magazines, the newspapers
Print every word I say
This world is just my spinning top
It’s all like childs-play
You know, I dream that it will never stop
But I know it’s not that way
Still my work goes on and on
Always stronger than before
I’m gonna make it dark before the dawn
Since no one believes in me anymore
Well now I used to have to sneak around
But now they just open their doors
You know, no one watches for my tricks
Since no one believes in me anymore
Well I’m gaining power by the hour
They’re falling by the score
You know, it’s getting very easy now
Since no one believes in me anymore
No one believes in me anymore
No one believes in me anymore
May 6th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
~Ted Roberts, the senior pastor of East Hill, forbad anyone to use three specific words from the pulpit or the platform of the church. The forbidden words were: “sin,” “hell,” and “repentance.” If anyone would ever slip and use any of these words publicly, the pastor would have a talk with him/her in his office.
I guess Jesus, Paul and John the Baptist wouldn’t be able to speak at “Ted’s church”. Great, Jesus friendly- no, user friendly-yes.
If this is really true, then good ridance now that Ted is not in charge. Do you know if the new pastor has this same policy?
May 6th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
I hear he liked “The Shack” as well. It’s only a matter of time before the walls of EastHill come tumbling down.
This song is in constant rotation on my Ipod. Kieth Green is one of my all time favorites.
May 6th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Jeremiah, sorry, I don’t know Jason’s policy on this matter.
May 6th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Tell me about “The Shack.”
:
May 6th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
David: Good for you by taking those rare occasions when you were given the pulpit to introduce the congregation to those three “forbidden” BIBLICAL words. This kind of seeker sensitivity is best demonstrated in the clip from “Real Preachers of Genius: Seeker Sensitve Mega Church Guy”.
May 7th, 2008 at 7:57 am
David, I’m a little surprised that your confrontation became a game of passive-aggressive pulpit “chicken” (who’s going to back down first?). It seems a cheap shot to talk badly about him now, when you had the opportunity to take a clear stand early on in your relationship. While I don’t agree with his position, I don’t agree that you were being loyal here and reading between the lines it seems you rather enjoyed causing trouble rather than fixing the issue.
That being said, I would caution against blanket criticisms of “seeker friendly” churches. David’s original point is well taken, but I find that too often the opposite has been true; that is, churches make no attempt at all at being welcoming to guests and even go so far as to use language that could offend those that are “pre-Christians”. It is entirely possible to have a church meeting atmosphere that is non-confrontational to guests without sacrificing the Gospel. Christians too often forget that they also were once on the other side of the fence, and it’s good to take a moment and think about what it’s like for someone to visit your church. Wouldn’t you like to feel welcomed and appreciated as a person without someone shouting about how all the heathens (you) are going to Hell?
Rick Warren is common target for those who oppose the seeker friendly paradigm. The first chapter of his book focuses largely on salvation issues, such as sin, repentance, and eternal life, so I don’t see what’s so controversial about that. He’s proven that you can make the Gospel sound like “good news” without forcing people into a Christian bubble, or what my pastor calls “Churchianity”.
I met a pastor several years ago who had a flourishing seeker friendly church. His philosophy was that Sundays were for guests but weekday meetings, weekly home groups and small groups were for Church family. To that end, they were careful how they presented the Gospel in a favorable light, and nothing happened that wasn’t pre-planned. Members were coached and encouraged to connect with people on an individual level to cause opportunities for salvation and change. My current church uses a similar model, and it has grown to over 1000 in less than 10 years where most churches in our area rarely top 200.
May 7th, 2008 at 10:18 am
anna, my wife and I finished reading The Shack together a month ago; my friends had really built it up and said that we really ought to read it…
it is a christian novel, written by william young, a man from the northwest, who wanted to communicate to others a softer side of God than what he had grown up with on the mission field (per Young’s interview on the 700 Club fairly recently);
the book is about his own spiritual journey; the main character is Mac, who after a tragedy with one of his children, has a divine appointment with God in the same place where the tragedy happened: the shack in the woods. Young dresses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in unique ways, even, at times, using a woman to play the role of God the Father.
The Trinity has Mac be reconciled with his earthly father, see life beyond the grave, understand that hierarchy is a poor substitute for relationship, and come to accept the forgiveness of Christ in a salvation experience.
Young has both been praised and criticized for his work. On the critical side, some say that Young is trying to change the biblical concept of the Trinity, while others say that he is trying to push a doctrine of universal reconciliation in the book (an accusation that I personally do not see much merit to). To me, someone who does not read much fiction, it was a mediocre book; too many adjectives, too slow moving to make each theological point. On the positive side, Mac is a relatable, down-to-earth character; there were some good quotable quotes; and God is made more real and human in Young’s portrayal of both the Father and Jesus.
May 7th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Erik said: David: Good for you by taking those rare occasions when you were given the pulpit to introduce the congregation to those three “forbidden” BIBLICAL words.
Erik, this was not about me saying those words in the pulpit; it was about theo johnson, a leader at east hill church, taking those opportunities, and reporting it to me…
May 7th, 2008 at 10:23 am
FICM said: David, I’m a little surprised that your confrontation became a game of passive-aggressive pulpit “chicken”…
FICM, please re-read my piece; this was not about me; i put the story in the first person as theo johnson was speaking…
May 7th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Sorry, you’re right. I misread it. My comments should have been directed at Theo.
May 7th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Erik and FICM, I edited the story so that it would be more easy to understand. Thanks!
May 7th, 2008 at 11:20 am
What direction is the church heading? Easy…like any other good corporation they’re focused on getting more customers in the door. How else can the their “operations” model work if they’re not constantly bringing in more sources of revenue?
May 7th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
David: Thanks for editing the story. NOW I see it a bit more clearly. I’m glad Theo had the courage to utter those three words from the pulpit. Props to him!
May 7th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
FICM, I got to know Theo pretty well by attending what he called “St Peter’s meetings” in his home. This was after he resigned from easthill church. I wouldn’t call it ‘passive-agressive pulpit chicken’…(that is pretty funny though!)I’m pretty sure he was just following Jesus in spite of what men said. Jesus’ first sermon was on repentance(Matt. 4:17) and His last word to the churches in Revelation was about repentance too. In Luke 6:46, Jesus asks, “And why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?”
Theo had served at easthill longer than Ted had at that point, and he likely didn’t feel a need to ’submit’ his sermons for approval. Theo also wouldn’t be the type to shout about hell to the congregation. It would be much more likely to see him break down in tears about how much Christ loves us. I saw that on numerous occasions.
Peace
May 7th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
I can give u a non-Christian perspective. Years ago, when I wanted to know about Jesus and Christianity, I visited a seeker friendly church. It felt too fake and made me wonder why those people are afraid to be themselves. I didnt want people to scream at me that I’m going to hell either. There is a balance.
May 8th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
“What direction is the church heading? Easy…like any other good corporation they’re focused on getting more customers in the door. How else can the their “operations” model work if they’re not constantly bringing in more sources of revenue?”
Grey Sheep: You need to repent of that sinful comment or you’re gonna go to hell!
May 8th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Nina, thanks for the non-Christian perspective. For those of us who have grown up in the church all our lives, it’s quite interesting to see what an unbeliever thinks while sitting in the pew. Just curious: besides people coming across as fake, what stood out from your view about the preaching? Open Bibles, powerpoint presentations? Topical preaching? Book by book? Did you feel a sense of the presence of God or any conviction of the heart when the preaching occured? Just curious…
May 8th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Back then, all I knew was that Jesus was the son of Mary and he died on the cross, which I didnt understand. Back home I didnt know any Christians. I feel too many cradle Christians in America are taking the gospel for granted.
I was basically an atheist, then got into eastern religion/philosophies, and witchcraft before finding Jesus through a supernatural miracle. I’m now a believer of Christ.
I was okay with powerpoints, modern music etc…. I always imagined a church to be traditonal, glass stained windows, organ etc
I thought it was interesting and surprised me. It made me curious too. Now, I dont see anything wrong with that. What stood out to me was hype — according to them life was all perfect, and everything was ‘feel goody’ and everything will be wondeful. That didnt seem to address real life.
To me it felt like hyped up spirituality. It felt like they were trying too hard to impress people rather than being themselves. For instance, even then I was reading the bible out of curiosity and didnt understand one thing. I asked people including pastors and nobody could give me an answer on why they believe that. I was surprised that a pastor or a Christian thats been in the church didnt know why they do things. I’m not expecting a deep theological conversation. I wondered why would anyone follow something if they dont know what it was and couldnt answer basic questions. There was a lack of sincerity. It just felt fake.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:57 am
Nina, thanks for sharing your perspective. I thought it interesting that you found that most churchers had no idea what they believed in. Sad but true, I’d say that was pretty true of most churches I’ve been involved in. Most people don’t take the time to understand their faith or work it out for themselves. Ask the average church goer to explain salvation and their best effort will most likely refer to the sinner’s prayer, but most will just hum and haw and say something non-committal. The worst part of this is that most pastors don’t seem interested in teaching the Gospel either. You can go for an entire year and hear altar calls with hints of what salvation is, but never hear it explained.
Back to the OP, the idea that you can’t say certain words is certainly sad, but the truth is that the Gospel isn’t a common theme on Sunday mornings in America is deplorable to me.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:56 am
“Ask the average church goer to explain salvation and their best effort will most likely refer to the sinner’s prayer, but most will just hum and haw and say something non-committal.”
I have found it a fascinating trend that its all about getting people to an altar to pray a 2.5 minute prayer, pat you on the head and tell you, “you are a christian now!”
Without one comment about: totally surrendering your life to Jesus Christ, forsaking everything to follow Him, not to mention an explanation about sin or the REPENTANCE. The sinners prayer to me is producing confused not saved christians. I find it fascinating that it cost Jesus everything to do the the Fathers will, it cost the disciples and apostles eveything, it cost people through out history everything but the 21st century american “christian” cost them a 2.5 minute prayer at an altar. I just dont get it…
May 9th, 2008 at 11:56 am
David, I like your summary of The Shack. I just finished reading it myself and agree with your summation, especially the pros and cons (and I do read quite a bit of great fiction, mostly “non Christian” because the “Christian” stuff is often shabbily written and teeming with hard-to-ignore false theology).
I enjoyed the Shack, took away the (long list of) truths and ignored the (short list) of questionable theology it contained.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
David, thanks for the review of “The Shack.” Someone gave it to me to read as well. I finished it about a month ago. I was just curious what others thought of it.
I’m a person who reads lots of fiction — mostly the sci-fi / fantasy variety because I like the imagination exercise. In this genre, you learn the paradigm of the setting and enjoy the story. So for me, The Shack was not a big stretch.
As for its doctrine, I didn’t see much. It just seemed to be a very personal story. I’m glad I read it, but I wouldn’t press it into people’s hands. If a person knows the Lord, then the book is superfluous. If a person doesn’t know Him very well, then their own personal journey will be more valuable.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Brothers. Sisters.
This is a time where the fear of the Lord is becoming real and everything that is not of Jesus is being exposed.
I, like my father, am NOT a follower of any mortal man, other than Christ.
Those in charge or say that they are in charge, need to be held accountable. Healing comes from confronting those whom hurt us - read what Jesus said.
Peace is the answer, our Lord will take care of the rest.
Godspeed.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:33 am
HUH?
May 12th, 2008 at 11:31 am
David
I don’t know where you ever got such information. I have never said that hell–repentence —sin were words that should not be used from the pulpit. That is absurd!! I have giving the rest of life my to calling the church to repentence specifically with respect to the sexual sin that is eating the church alive. Which is precisely why I have started Pure Desire ministries. If the church doesn’t come to repentence about this sin in the church that no one talks about, we will never have revival. I can’t debate what Theo may have said —but I know I have never made such a statement myself.It is totally against everything I believe. You were unclear what I supposedly said in a classroom. But I have said many times you should never talk about hell unless you do it like Jesus —with tears in your eyes.
This kind of internet slander is exactly why the body of Christ is so weak and pathetic. If you thought this was true about me you should have come directly to me ( Matthew 18). This is not only unbiblical but totally lacks any since of courage and integrity.
I challenge you to post this response and speak with me directly.
Ted Roberts
May 12th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Hi Ted,
Fantastic response! I love it. Did you read my posting yourself on this blog or did someone else bring it to your attention? ‘Just curious…
I’d love to meet with you. The last thing I want to do is to post false or misleading information on this blog. My post was based upon what Theo Johnson personally told me before he passed on. I’ve always known Theo Johnson to be a loyal member of East Hill and a man of high integrity and honesty. If untrue, I would like to hear your side of why Theo left his position at East Hill on your watch after so many years of ministry.
I’d be happy to come to your office. I would want to bring a friend. I would also want to talk about the issue below in my P.S.
I am sending you an email with about the same information in it.
Thanks very much,
David Mackin
P.S. Ever since Clive Pick, the church consultant from Canada, visited East Hill several years ago for the first time and spoke on the subject of tithing, I listened to his entire series and also read his book called, The Transformation. Have you read it? If I’m not mistaken, it was Ray Young who was Clive’s main contact at the church. Has he read it?
As I read all that Clive had to say about the tithe, and took detailed notes on his materials contrasting what he said with the New Testament, I felt shocked that you and Ray allowed, in my view, such false teaching at East Hill. In broaching this subject, I am not not trying to take the focus away from your post and Theo Johnson’s comments to me, I am merely informing you that Clive Pick’s teaching on the tithe is another issue that I have with you and East Hill and will also look forward to discussing it with you when we meet.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Okay, if the post was based on he-said-she-said, it can be considered gossip. To be honest I’m a bit concerned about some posts. I’m a person that has been hurt by that church, yes the pain is very real. I can’t stress enough how much hurt i had been by CBC, (And I’ve been there 8 yrs). I’ve also been hurt by small church. That doesn’t give a person entitlement. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Some of the posts have valid points but I feel some are gossip without factual information. Factual information means it is verified, checked and even checked by two different sources (according to a basic high school journalism class). Writing a post, without getting both sides is not right. And did the person talk to the offender at first? Did you first discuss with Ted Roberts or the concerning person? This is unethical even according to the secular standards.
I have been occasionally looking at the posts and can identify with some of the same feelings but I personally think some of you are going too far.
As for me I have already rejected charismatic/pentecostalism (or whatever it is) a long time ago. And in fact, recently I’ve considered & now decided to leave the Christian faith all together. I’m serious. Sure, Christian philosophy sounds nice but church-goers dont practice it, including you. This is BS! You guys are not taking a stand against anything. I can easily google up Christianity and find several websites just like this.
Churches are the problem. I’m not talking about CBC or whatever churches you guys accuse of doing the wrong things. CBC, Baptist, methodist, catholic, lutheran or whatever label u call it, ultimately its the same thing - a shallow religion where one group thinks that they are special and better entitled than the other. And why not get off your asses and do something? If u really cared about the poor, unfortunate peoples who need help, why arent you spending time with them. Instead you seem to have all the time in the world to criticize other churches/peoples for lack of reaching out to the poor etc… Go ahead and tell me specifically first how YOU are living out Christ that ya’ll believe so much in. I dont care about other preachers. At this time, I only care to know about YOU - as in the regular writers of this blog. I personally think you guys are full of yourselves and need to get over yourselves.
Some of you guys are really not that much different — some of you guys have the same unChrist-like attitudes that you point out in others. I’m seeing immaturity, gossip, judgmentalism and all the things I used to hate about Christians long time ago even when I wasn’t saved.
I’m proudly no longer a Christian and I’ve never felt better. (Oh yea, I know, Christianity is not about feeling) Well, the what the **** is it about? Obviously, Jesus is not alive today because he DOES NOT exist in his believers. Yes, I’ve also heard that you shouldnt look at Jesus at people but rather the Bible. Well, then how will anyone know Jesus. The Bible is no different from any other religious text. Jesus was a good guy.
I decided to only focus on the positive from my past experiences with the other religions I practiced, experiences in CBC as a group leader, and other denominations, I’ve spent time in other churches too…well life is too short for this. I’ll live out the best way I can, help others and follow the good philosophies and principles of the Bible or whatever. CBC at least told me it was okay to be passionate about believing what u beleive.
Well guys, I hope you guys find what you are looking for. I’m no longer going to visit this site because I feel this is a ridiculous waste of time.
Peace out!
Proud Ex-Christian
May 12th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Well, well, well…looks like THIS post is heating up a bit. Yikes!
May 12th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Wow! How many mega-church (or former mega church) pastors have come onto this blog and used their real name and taken issue with a major post?! Not very many that I know of. I’m thrilled about this and must commend Ted for this step. I am now in the process of making an appointment with Ted after I find a friend who would like to accompany me to the appointment.
I have found that there are a lot of benefits to having a friend come with me to these type of appointments. When I had a confrontational meeting with an associate pastor in a local church in Vancouver, I really appreciated the friend who came along for the ride. More later.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Yeah, David, in fact, that’s even in the Bible somewhere… having a few witnesses present when confronting an elder. I wish I could think of the exact reference, but it seems like a different scenario when confronting an elder.
Good luck or Godspeed or some other over-used-to-the-point-of-being-meaningless phrase that means the same thing.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:20 am
1 timothy 5:19, would be the scripture you were probably thinking of.
19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.
Though we dont see verse 20 happen to much anymore. I bet if we did, a bunch of foolishness that people get away with would stop.
20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Erik Said:
Reminds me of the time in the mid-eighties when I brought a non-Christian to a CBC (then BT) service. In my zeal I always sat very close to the front, and so I dragged “Joe Six Pack” right down there with me. During worship everyone lifted their hands within a 30 foot radius of “Joe” and I.
Joe stuck his hands straight up in the air, and then swiveled his head this way and that. We cracked up about that for some time as he looked just like he was being held up. He probably felt that way too as the parade of tithers made their way through the aisles.
Do they still do the walkabout for the collection of the tithes and offerings?
May 13th, 2008 at 11:44 am
David:
Pick me! Pick me!
Not only would I gladly participate from a Christian perspective, I would love to have 10 selfish minutes to talk with Ted about triathlons. We arrived one morning years ago at the same time for the Aluminum Man triathlon in the Dalles. I identified myself as a regular at East Hill, and we had a few pleasant and brief words. Later in the race Ted passed me and I said how you doing, or something like that. His reply was a grunt as all his energy was being consumed by a crush the competition mindset.
David, just ensure that his challenge to you doesn’t include a triathlon.
May 16th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
OtherFormerPBCPrez, don’t worry…i hardly know how to spell “triathlon”…
May 16th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Yeah I had these expereinces with some of my friends I brought to CBC/BT too. So sad how uncomfortable they felt. I always felt like I had to prep people before I brought them. One day I just asked myself “if you don’t like all this crap, why are you here?” Month later I was gone.
May 20th, 2008 at 3:21 am
Hi David
Dennis Gilles husband of Janice here. No comments about the posting just wanted to say “Hi” Janice and I think of you often with fond memories of you during our PBC daz. trust all is well with you and yours. Janice and I are still in Melbourne Australia trying to be of use to Jesus. We stay in contact with Tom Sparks who has been a big help to us being one of our proof readers while we’ve been doing a m min.
Blessings
Dennis
dennis.scc@gmail.com
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:37 am
Dennis, thanks for saying Hi. I’ll email you.
Ted Johnson, thanks for coming onto the blog. I just had a great app’t with Ted Roberts. More later on that. God bless you, brother!
son of Theo? I didn’t know your father very well, but I deeply respected him as a great man of God. I know that he will be missed by many.
June 9th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
David.
Yes, I am Theo Johnson’s son. One of 3.
I would like to meet with you some time an tell you more about my dad and what he meant to us and how I really feel about the direction of the “American” mega-church.
In Him.
June 9th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Mr. Ted
When you meet with David Mackin can you make the DVD available to the rest of us? ( A transcript would be fine also) I would also like to know about your father and the direction of the “American” mega-corporation-church!
In Him also ……………. with HIS help of course
ICE