Great question from a reader:
Alright. So, I'm a transplant from California to Seattle. Let me tell you, I've had considerable trouble finding a church to join up here, largely due to many of the doctrinal issues I just read in your blog. (Funny story: someone recommended City Bible as a church for me, and I googled them and found this site.) Fortunately, I grew up in a church that taught me about grace properly. My problem now is finding a church that will keep me honest and provide some nourishment without helping me become more self-righteous than I probably already am. Do you have any suggestions?
Do any of you Seattle readers have any ideas?
The Seattle Revival Center might be a good place to start. We know a few people there, and when we have visited the church and gone out to lunch with them, they have seemed very sincere and friendly. I don’t know many details about the church, however.
Mars Hill
Do not go to Mars Hill!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They have financial and leadership issues.
If you are a Charismatic Christian looking for a good Home Church that is not all about control I recommend Christian Faith Center http://www.caseytreat.com/
Some of the people on this blog just do not believe in the Charismatic Doctrine at all so they may bash Casey Treat. The main church doctrins are mainstream Charismatic with a special focus on building strong families. Renewing your mind is something you would hear often there as they tend to reach out to former drug and alcohol addicts.
But its a good church built on good people who do a lot in the community …
You will not find a site like this dedicated to destroying CFC because people who leave that church usually have a good experience there. Great kids program, good out reach that is set up for the community and not for the church. For example: They give food to the food bank … they do not set up their own food bank and make people go to church to receive their charities. They gave a lot of money to the flood victims in Washington this last winter.
That is my 2 cents.
Dear Reader,
To my present knowledge, both Christian Faith Center (CFC) and New Beginnings Christian Center (NBCC) teach the Prosperity Doctrine very heavily. Are you looking for that?
CFC hired me in the early 1990′s to help them develop curriculum for their new college. After my wife and I visited the church and visited with some church/staff members, we decided that their emphasis upon the Prosperity Doctrine that was being preached from the pulpit was not actually being experienced by the staff members to whom we spoke. So, I called them from an overseas ministry trip, and said thanks but no thanks. If you’re not looking for a church where the senior pastor is the center, then I’d consider looking elsewhere.
A good way to find a church after you check out the web site and pray about it, is to listen to some of the key sermons from the pastor – esp. the typical ones on Becoming A Member and The Vision of this House – is to visit for awhile and just see… then come back and share with us how you felt!
P.S. I just visited with a great woman of God the other day who has been in the ministry of the gospel for many years. As I shared with her about how I have gone to many different churches, ended up confronting the senior pastors, and then being asked to leave (in one way or another), she said to me:
“The difference between you and me is that after I’d confront the senior pastor I’d STAY in the church. I wouldn’t leave. I think that we give too much power to evil!”
I’m with David, stay away from CFC. They tried to hire me to teach in their (K-12) school, but once I found out how emeshed and dysfunctional (not to mention theologically OFF) it was, I declined. A friend of mine did teach in the CFC school and had a complete nightmare experience. Also, CFC isn’t really IN Seattle (I think it’s in Kent, considerably south of Seattle).
Unfortunately, I don’t know of a good church in Seattle. Lots of my friends like Mars Hill, but I can’t personally vouch for it, and given its position on women in ministry and a couple of other things, I’d likely not attend it if I lived in the area.
University Presbyterian.
Great place for anyone… intellectuals, families, or homeless
Timberlake Fellowship is worth a try.
–p
David where do you go to church?
Help Me Understand, We fellowship at a house church in Sandy, Oregon.
What is a house church? Would that be like a cell group type of thing or different?
Help Me Understand, Our “house church” is very simple; it’s a group of Christians who meet regularly for prayer, worship, food, fellowship and Bible input. Unlike some cell groups, we are not “under the covering” of a local church or denomination.
[Comment ID #32745 Will Be Quoted Here]
Cool, thanks.
I listen to a lot of Sermons from Mark Driscoll at Mars Hill Church…From what I’ve heard so far I feel he has real sound doctrine. I don’t know anything about the church…but I enjoy Pastor Mark’s teaching. I’d say it’s worth checking out.
Ken Ross has a church in the Seattle area I believe….
House/Home church references in scripture:
ACTS 5:42
And every day, in the temple and at home, they ceased not to teach and to preach Jesus as the Christ.
ACTS 8:3
But Saul laid waste the church, entering into every house, and dragging men and women committed them to prison.
ACTS 16:40
And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.
ACTS 20:20
how I shrank not from declaring unto you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly, and from house to house,
ROMANS 16:3-5
Salute Prisca and Aquila my fellow-workers in Christ Jesus, who for my life laid down their own necks; unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles: and salute the church that is in their house. Salute Epaenetus my beloved, who is the first-fruits of Asia unto Christ.
1 CORINTHIANS 16:19
The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Prisca salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
COLOSSIANS 4:15
Salute the brethren that are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church that is in their house.
PHILEMON 1:2
and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:
AND NOW let’s see if anyone can come up with as many scriptures to support the idea of building dedicated church buildings … let alone lop-sided bood-like domes with jumbotrons …
“bood-like” should have been “boob-like” …
mars hill church is actually in controversy in the blogosphere on a fairly regular basis. most recently, driscoll has a rant on youtube telling his congregation not to read The Shack. For many people, this is troubling in and of itself for a leader to exercise this kind of censorship in his church. But there is a long track record of Driscoll publicly saying outrageous things, sexist things and such, that he is a very controversial figure. Great speaker, for sure, great sense of humor, I get the appeal. But do your homework on why Driscoll and his reformed theology, particularly about women, riles many people on a regular basis.
There is a cool vineyard church in Shoreline. Not too big. Not too small. Contemporary and authentic. Charismatic, but not hyped. Rich and Rose Swetman co-pastor it, with Rose having more of the spotlight. Rich has an amazing story of how he used to be a superstar prophet who travelled the world, calling words of the Lord to total strangers and wowing people everywhere he went. But all was not well, and eventually he gave up platform ministry. He will tell you himself that he loves seeing his wife have the spotlight instead of himself. They are both very respected leaders in their region. Shoreline Vineyard.
On Mars Hill
http://westseattleblog.com/blog/?p=4583
I said from the get-go that many many people on this blog do not like the “mainstream” Charismatic doctrin including healing and prosperity. So I am not surprised by the comments about it.
The City Church and City Bible have issues that are repeated over and over on this site I will not take anything away from that. But if you are “Mainstream” Charismatic Christian CFC is the way to go!
They have 2 campuses main campus is in Federal Way and the other is in Everett.
“particularly about women,”
Like what?
Like women are to be quiet in Church. Like no women can be in any leadership position in the Church. No woman should ever question any man in Church or the Home.
Bad doctrine about women aside they have had huge financial problems and several of the top leadership have been removed.
“several of the top leadership have been removed.”
who?
and regarding the other point you made. Have you EVER studied the scriptures regarding women in ministry? If you have, I would like you to please give me the details of your study.
Really? Do the women-folk wear bonnets too?
On the upside, if women aren’t involved the services should be manly, not prissy like in the churches where the women-folk do service planning.
Maybe at a church like that a guy can get a man-size hunk of bread and full glass of vino to wash it down – and not that little pinky-sized crumb they serve at the UFC.
I like the idea.
‘Scrupe
this made me laugh……….!
Actually the women should be silent is taken out of context. It doesnt mean that a woman should not talk at all. If its taken literally, she cannot technically be a sunday school teacher. And Paul later tells women to cover their head while prophesying. If a woman is supposed to be quiet and not talk, how can she prophesy if she cannot speak in the church?
It may be a contradiction but thats when we need to look at context. Lanny Hubbard explained this to me a while ago.
The first verse needs to be put in the right context. For instance, in the book and chapter, the idea was about order in the church. In those days, men and women sat separately because of the culture. (Actually, in some middle eastern countries during religious rites including church services men and women sit separately)….well those women were not educated and when they didnt understand a verse they would yell over to their husbands or people around and actually interupt the service. That verse was refering to a certain group of women in one place, not all women in general. Paul said for those women to talk with their husbands at home because he was actually encouraging the men to share their knowledge with the women. Traditionally, women could not study the Torah or scriptures because educating women was not a priority.
And didn’t Acts talk about Philip the evangelist’s four virgin daughters that prophesied?
As for submission, the bible only tells women to submit to their husbands. But the next verses tell the husband to love their wives like how Christ gave his life for the church. The Bible DOES NOT say that women should submit to all men or that she cannot question a man.
If a man who is not my husband wants me to submit to him, I’ll kick his ass. And submission means respect or cooperation with the husband not being dominated or having a subservient role.
As for women in ministry if you guys get a chance, talk to Lanny Hubbard. He wrote his masters thesis about that topic and he once gave me his paper. There is a book, “Why not women?”
As for mars hill, I visited when I was there and checked out the websites and media. I wasnt particularly impressed. It seemed that Mark Driscoll is trying too hard to impress others and purposefully trying to be edgy and get attention. I feel that he lacks respect, concern and sensitivity towards others. Or that was my impression. I may be wrong but thats what I felt.
Uh, fomer NBCC member, you wouldn’t seriously tell someone to not go to a church based on what you read in a blog would you? I would hope you would get your information from a more credible source.
[Comment ID #32770 Will Be Quoted Here]
I officially nominate this for best post ever.
Hi Nina,
Looking at scripture in historical and cultural context is very important; in ministering to the Corinthians, who came out of paganism and temple shrine prostitution, the women as I understand it, were downright disgusting in their treatment of men, coarse and overtly sexual in their speech and disruptive in assemblies of the body for teaching and fellowship.
So Paul’s instructions were to address a specific situation, to restore order in the Church. I believe it also had to do with helping to restore the dignity of men in their homes.
What I know, I’ve just read here and there, discussed with a few learned friends, but I’m no scholar on that issue. For me, I want a wife who walks by my side, not several steps behind me. Personally, I am a believer that the ‘curse’ spoken in the garden ‘your husband will rule over you’, came to an end at the cross, since as we often say “Jesus redeemed us from the curse” … though sadly, there are men who seem to want their wives to continue under the curse. My wife is every bit the vessel of Christ Jesus that I am, every bit as filled with the Spirit and gifted. Why would any man want to silence a vessel in Christ Jesus, if she is sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit and speaks with the anointing of Christ Jesus?
What I take away from that passage to the Corinthians for today, is that everyone, male and female, need be sensitive to the move of the Holy Spirit in the assembly and NOT to quench the Holy Spirit by an outburst of the flesh.
Several years ago, I sang a few songs at a meeting of the Aglow women in my area and we had a very tender time of worship together. As we were concluding worship and just enjoying a time of silence before the Lord, a woman in the audience began singing a song of the spirit and my wife was moved to reply in kind, whereby the 2 women sang a duet in a sort of echo and reply exchange. It was beautiful and edifying. Until a man (pastor) who was there, interrupted the singing during a brief pause with a loud and obnoxious prayer of thanksgiving for “a godly president in George W. Bush” … the 2 women wept and heaved for the way the man quenched the Holy Spirit in them and the Holy Spirit seemed to leave the room like the air was suddenly sucked out of it …
It saddens me even now to think that one person, with an outburst of the flesh (whether male or female), can de-rail the sweet communion of the Holy Spirit in an assembly of the saints. That I believe is the core issue Paul sought to address in his instructions to the Corinthians, which in that time and culture, was principally a woman problem. Had he been writing a letter to the Aglow women of Chicago who were in the habit of inviting their hireling husbands, I imagine he’d have told the men to sit down and shut up.
‘Scrupe
PS – I still like the idea of ‘Hungry Man’ portions during communion.
Just wanted to clarify:
I have no problem with women in ministry. In leadership, preaching and teaching. Whatever, go for it ladies!
“If a man who is not my husband wants me to submit to him, I’ll kick his ass.”
Nina-I am getting to like you! You sound like my wife! hahaha!
I have book called “Why Not Women” by Loren Cunningham and David Hamilton. Could be a good resource for some to read.
[Comment ID #32762 Will Be Quoted Here]
There are times when someone will say something that is so poorly informed it causes you to be skeptical about everything they say. This is one such comment.
“There are times when someone will say something that is so poorly informed it causes you to be skeptical about everything they say. This is one such comment.”
DOC:
I am not mis representing Mars Hill’s doctrine. I have heard his messages on the Radio broadcasts here in Seattle and he has said so much and more. To his credit he believes women can serve as leaders of Government and Business. But that hardly discounts how he preaches about women in the Church.
It is poor doctrine in my opinion and doesn’t equate with other scriptures in the Bible both New and Old Testaments. I have long decided I will not argue doctrine on this blog because I clearly disagree with many posters interpretations of scriptures on here.
Several people on here in earlier Posts and comments have defended Mars Hill’s doctrine on women. I am actually pleasantly surprised by the majority opinion here that Women should be voiced in church.
I disagree with most people on this blog on: Prosperity and Healing. Just because a few looser “Pastors” take things out of context and implement scripture for their own personal gain doesn’t mean the doctrines are wrong.
I feel strongly that CFC (Whom I am no longer a member but have been twice) doesn’t have the controlling issues City Church has. I feel strongly that CFC has a balanced approach to Healing as when Casey went through his own sickness he continued to go to the doctor and do what the doctor said while praying and believing in healing. He was/Is healed and many people have similar testimonies in that church to share. He has a similar balanced approach to prosperity and I agree with it. Others here don’t and that is what they have come to after their studies in the Bible and I do not have a problem with that.
The originator asked for an opinion and I gave mine. If the originator of the question is a Mainstream Charismatic they will feel at home in CFC. If they are not maybe they wont but that is for them to decide.
I strongly feel Mars Hill is off on several issues. They can not get their money right and going through difficulties. You may not see this as a problem but the bible does. Several of the Sermons on the Mount deal with how to be responsible with your money. I find that as a big issue more then their approach to women in the church. If I am giving to my church (gasp) I want to know that the church is a responsible with that money. I want to know what outreaches they do. Nobody …. NOBODY … does more in the Puget Sound then CFC. Other then large denominations like the Catholics. And CFC is known to team up with other churches to do even more (Something I never saw at City Church).
This is a personal decision for this person picking a church. I feel a church should have sound doctrine compared to how you interpret it. If you do not agree with the tenants of any church … Do not Go there! It should have people that fit your culture … some people like the old hymns others like Christian Rock/Worship others like Big Band and some like folk music. Find a church that has the music you enjoy it will make your praise and worship that much better for you. And you should enjoy the people you meet there. If you do not meet anyone in the 1st day that you can relate with … find somewhere you can.
Every denomination and or Non-Denomination church has its own culture and doctrines, I feel strongly that you should try to fit into a placed that was designed for you rather then trying to design a place around you.
former NBCC Member wrote: Every denomination and or Non-Denomination church has its own culture and doctrines, I feel strongly that you should try to fit into a placed that was designed for you rather then trying to design a place around you.
NBCC, I agree to a certain extent with what you are saying; it is advice that is both political and practical; at the same time, if people take it as the last word on the subject of church attendance, then they might see themselves as those who should never question, confront or actually try to change the church in which they find themselves.
As I posted before: The other day a woman of God who has an international ministry of compassion and Bible teaching told me:
The difference between you and me, David, is that after you confront the leadership of a church and they show displeasure toward you, you leave. Not me: I would stay. We give too much power to evil when we always end up leaving…
So if CFC is so great. How come you left?
Former NBCC Member,
I don’t want to make this another discussion about Mars Hill and women. I have concerns about Mars Hill, as with every church. But I aslo see them mischaracterized alot so I felt obligated to jump in.
Yes you are.
Nonsense. They believe that woman aren’t to be the primary teachers when the entire church gets together. But the idea that women at Mars Hill walk around in silence is… umm… bizarre.
Also untrue. They believe the requirement in Titus and 1 Timothy that an elder is to be a “one woman man” limits the office of elder to men. As a result, Mars Hill does not have women as elders. But they serve and lead in all sorts of other capacities.
I’ll wager dinner that you can’t find a 2 people at Mars Hill to agree with that statement. (There’s a wingnut in every group). They encourage men and women to be temperate and gracious about all their opinions, regardless of the gender involved. But if you’re concerned about that, take it up with Jesus
I know nuance can be annoying, but sometimes it’s important. This is a controversial issue and I think reasonable minds can disagree. Misrepresenting another’s position is a great way to incite prejudice against them. So if thats your goal, carry on. However, if your goal is to discuss important disagreements while maintaining unity in the body of Christ, you’ll be more effective if you actually understand the position you disagree with.
Cheers
DOC
Except here’s the problem: if a person has no “position” within the system then they have no access to those with control. And even if that person did manage to access the controller, his comments would be met with “I’m sorry you feel that way” or some similar sentiment. And basically the message is, “If you’re not on board with the vision, then get off the ship.”
So then the person has these options:
1. Stay, with no access to confront the one who controls.
2. Speak to others, therefore drawing accusations of dissention.
3. Leave.
During all this, one can pray. But one can still pray in the event of any of these scenarios. (Been there, done that.)
I left because I moved
I have no idea who Casey Treat is or CFC (???) and in fact I really don’t care cause it sounds like just another lost and floundering church to me. But I do have to say that your statement about the prosperity doctrine is way off. How can you use scripture to defend your arguments and then say something like this? Jesus consistantly spoke out against money and riches. Now I’m not saying its wrong to be rich, but it is wrong to intertwine the Gospel with riches. I don’t understand how someone can honestly believe that God wants to reward people with earthly material posessions for being “good” Christians. He’s the ruler of the universe with all the money in the world. The last thing He cares about is making people rich! What a joke that is. The prosperity doctrine is wrong and no one will ever be able to come up with a true biblical basis for supporting it’s message. There are just to many scriptutal references against excess wealth.
“There are just to many scriptural references against excess wealth.”
What scriptures are against excess wealth? Seems to me God sure blessed the socks off of King Solomon!
Shoot, Queen of Sheba sent him 25 tons of gold every year after her first visit thats: $519,000,000 in gold ever year by now a days prices. Hey, thats not excess! Thats a half of billion dollars…just in gold.
I am not saying I agree with all the very weird teachings out there. BUT, all i got to say is King Solomon was doing ok.
[Comment ID #32793 Will Be Quoted Here]
King Solomon???? If I’m not mistaken he lived before Jesus, before the new covenant, and before the our sin nature was wiped out by Christ’s death on the cross, chaning everything. Please don’t us Old Testemant references for a New Testament issue.
[Comment ID #32794 Will Be Quoted Here]
Oh, I see. We throw out the entire OT. Is that what you are saying? Are you telling me that you never sin?
Not only that. You said:
“There are just to many scriptural references against excess wealth.â€
Where are the scriptures in the NT that talk about excess wealth?
I am not trying to fight with you, honestly.
[Comment ID #32796 Will Be Quoted Here]
I don’t have time for pettiness…
Just go do a word study on “rich,” “money,” and “wealth” and let God lead you. See what you discover.
“I don’t have time for pettiness…”
Really, is that what it is? Ok.
Just go do a word study on “rich,†“money,†and “wealth†and let God lead you. See what you discover.
With all respect given to you. Dont insult me. Give me a break. You said:
“There are just to many scriptural references against excess wealth.â€
Then you want to pull:
“…let God lead you. See what you discover.”
Whatever.
You have nothing to say.
[Comment ID #32799 Will Be Quoted Here]
You could start with 1 Timothy 6.
“You could start with 1 Timothy 6.”
This is a great chapter. I agree. It doesnt really address the comment: “There are just to many scriptural references against excess wealth.â€
It does address a lot of great points!
vs 9-10
Can a person be rich and not love money?
What is rich to one person is poverty to another. Dont you think it is a heart issue? The avg middle class american is RICH to a HUGE porion of the world. If this blog is in mexico city we would be a laughing stock right now. Think about it. WE ARE ALL RICH TO MOST OF THE WORLD. To who much is given much is required.
vs 17-18
God is saying that there are rich people with us. Compared to most of the world, that would be us. That we need to command them not trust in those riches-here today gone tomorrow.
The rich are never told to get rid of their riches. Except for the rich young ruler who’s heart was CONNECTED to his MONEY. In this passage God is simply saying dont put your trust in your money.
Its my opinion and I know people are not going to like it. BUT people who dont give away money, LOVE their money. Wether that is through tithing or sowing, or scattering or giving cheerfull. Whatever you want to call it. If a person cant simply let it go-their heart is wrapped up in their money just like the rich young ruler.
[Comment ID #32773 Will Be Quoted Here]
You know what, I’m glad that there are men who want an equal partner rather than a glorified servant/secretary for a wife. For years I was very troubled because of the so-called images of biblical femininity. To some people it means being a stepford wife-type. I wondered, if this is what I’m supposed to be as a ‘godly’ woman and if that is what ‘godly’ men want in a woman, I’d be single for a long time.
I ofted felt that in CBC/PBC my only role as a woman of God was to be nothing more than a pretty decoration in the pews. I was a ‘bad’ girl because I didnt fit that mold and I asked questions. I made sure to be respectful and not disrupt a class though.
Im PBC I was told this, one day a girl asks me about my calling. Of course I dont want to discuss it so I say “I don’t know”
Her answer, “You don’t, at all.”
“I have somewhat of an idea.”
“You can always get married.”
huh? She continues, ” You know our role as women is to support our husbands anyway. Maybe you’ll find your calling when you get married.”
WTF? was my reaction. I couldnt believe what I was hearing. Since I was an impressionable new believer I was stunned.
As for sexism, I browsed through the website of Mars Hill and Acts 29 network. Imago-Dei also believes that eldership is a male role and more of an ‘overseer’ but women can teach under an elder and serve as home group leaders. Women can be teachers or pastors to other women and children. Its just the primary role of eldership or teaching is for men.
As for Mars Hill, I havent been there but they dont seem to be commanding women to be housewives or stepford wife types. Women serve in other roles, leaders in the business, govt and secular positions. And when I looked at the Women’s ministry site, it seemed that the women are open about real issues. It seems that they are involved and active in other ‘ministry’ things. They discuss and ask tough questions. If the male leaders are ‘offended’ by a woman that respectfully asks questions or has her own goals of being leaders in the business world, then it’s a problem.
I’m NOT really defending Mars Hill or any other place. I browsed through their site and saying what I saw so far.
At the same time, i listened to a Mark Driscoll video of the role of pastors wvies. He said that his wife is his senior pastor. He said that pastors wives are not secretaries. He said administrative tasks can easily be delegated but no one else can do what a pastor’s wife does and among a list he mentions keeping him accountable. I’m just throwing random thoughts but that sounds interesting.
I havent seen any of Mark Driscoll videos that others say are offensive but I’m going to look for it.
Also realize that no church will 100% meet all our expectations.
Help me Understand,
I don’t think anyone here thinks it is inherently evil to have money.
Does the prosperity gospel teach you to be satisfied with what you have or to seek “promotion” financially from the Lord?
Churches in Portland – - Are there any good ones? I have been floating around from church to church and have yet to find a “home church”.
Any suggestions?
I grew up at BT (City Bible now) and I don’t want to end up in a church that all you hear is tithe, tithe, give, give or any church that has race issues.
Thanks
[Comment ID #32806 Will Be Quoted Here]
I think God wants me to prosper. Do you? I know there are teachings about prosperity that are way out of balance. Just like there are teachings about the Grace of God that is way out of balance.
Define “prosper”.
[Comment ID #32811 Will Be Quoted Here]
My thoughts exactly…
I believe God wants me to be successful in my whole life finacially, marriage, family, health, relationships etc.
Does he want me to be rich? depends how you define rich. Like I said before we live in america. Even our “american poor” are better off then those childrem living in the garbage dumps of mexico.
Now, you asked me a question now answer mine: “I think God wants me to prosper. Do you?”
You know … it comes down to worldly vs. spiritual focus for me … the Lord brought Karen and I cross country to a place we’d never seen before and settled us here – we struggle but get by in terms of money … one of the scriptures He gave us when we arrived, is from Isaiah “you who have NO money, come, buy …”
That’s a real mind blower – how do you buy something without money? Yet we bought it indeed, through obedience and surrender to His will, and we have become rich indeed, in Spirit.
I’ve pondered that scripture on and off for years and have come to the conclusion that IF I can buy it with money, it’s not worth having *in the spiritual* sense or if I can buy it with money, it won’t last, it won’t make me happy (for long), etc.
But that which is priceless, that which can only be bought without money, but by paying with my life, is worth more than anything this world has to offer.
There’s another scripture, a favorite – from Proverbs 31 – the wife who is worth more than rubies … she is, indeed. Genuine love, companionship, a spiritual partner – who can put a price on the value of that? Rubies? you can keep ‘em – I’ll take the spiritual wealth and the love of a beautiful wife any day.
From the heavenly perspective, worldly wealth – specifically mammon – sure seems short sighted …
Another funny thing – with kids in the house, being strapped for cash through their college years – then finally they’re gone – there’s money enough to travel, remodel the house, stash away for retirement … but the real prosperity – the real joy – is when the kids come home bearing young ‘uns of their own – a love feast with family … I’d trade the financial security to roll back the clock and have more time with my kids growing up …
Prosperity? Is wisdom, knowledge, love for family …
Money? Just fodder for the fire on the day of the Lord. Those who embrace it as treasure will find themselves empty-handed on the day of the Lord.
‘Scrupe
Is this a prime product of being a Christian or a by-product?
Also, I think there are plenty of examples in the Bible where those who follow God are not successfull financially, in relationships, health, marriage etc. simply because the will not bend from the truth and they put God before all these things.
I do think God wants us to prosper, but in Him. If we prosper in Christ that does not guarantee we will be successful in the things you list.
Jesus said:
We do not look for peace in the world, but we look for peace only in Jesus Chrsit…and we might get peace in the world, and we might not. Untold millions of Christians didn’t find success in finances, relationships etc…they found martyrdom becasue of the name of Christ. There is no higher calling as a Christian. What you define as success and prosperity is not a guarantee of the God of the Bible.
To answer your question, God has prospered me. He washed me from the filth of my flesh and seated me in heavenly places with Christ. Everything else I count for dung in comparison, including your definition of success.
Amen Craig.
so if you’re not successful, are you out of God’s will?
This is probably why I pretty much suck at being a Christian. I’m not very “successful” at any of those things, though success is certainly subjective. Many third world citizens would likely judge my American middle-class life as very wealthy and successful. It is a matter of perspective, isn’t it?
What concerns me most with the above statement is if this is a world view then does this world view therefore set people up for constantly chasing “success” or measuring God’s favor in one’s life by success? How do we then assess our responsibility to serve the poor or those with less power or means than ourselves? What if broken people come to Christ but really never quite get whole? It happens everyday. There is junk in my life I’m still crippled by after more than two decades of a dynamic friendship with God.
I can’t buy it. Nope. Sounds too, um, sounds too AMERICAN.
“I do think God wants us to prosper, but in Him. If we prosper in Christ that does not guarantee we will be successful in the things you list.”
Ok, what does that mean? To prosper in Him? You are good at debating what you think it doesnt mean. What does it mean?
“Everything else I count for dung in comparison, including your definition of success.”
Do you really count it as dung? I doubt it. Easy to say sitting in one of the wealthies countries in the world. But, I bet you live in the definition of success. I bet you want to be healthy, I bet you enjoy financial prosperity, I bet you want your marriage to be wondeful and successful.
Like I said before. Looks like God financially blessed a lot of people in the bible. You can say all you want they are there. Just there are people that were killed for being a christian.
Dont you think there is a balance between the two?
Regarding the post above where someone suggested our site is not credible because it’s a “blog” – We’re a 24/7 news site operated by journalists with 30 years’ combined experience, a city-credentialed media source, and a business. We only still have “blog” in the name because it’s become our brand, much as we’d prefer to change it because of this kind of misconception. Often “blogs” are where you get better, more up to date information than “old media” sources. Wanted to put this out there in case anyone in this thread is actually from West Seattle, since our user logs led us to the link. Thank you, now back to your theological discussion. — West Seattle Blog
“What if broken people come to Christ but really never quite get whole?”
Why dont they?
It is not because God doesnt want them whole or because God did not provide the ability to be whole. I believe a lot of it is by choice. There is a great power in our ability to choose. Though some want to put it all on Jesus. We do play apart. I write this as a person that wants to be whole myself and have not attained that, yet. But, I have come along way and I bet..so have you.
“How do we then assess our responsibility to serve the poor or those with less power or means than ourselves?”
Serve the poor. Hey, serve the rich! Serve everyone.
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Them some pretty strong words about trying to having balance between the two.
You know nothing about me, so please refrain from judgement calls on my character and feelings. If you would take the time to read my comment carefully and try to understand what I am saying I think you will see why your comment is another straw man argument. I’ll make it easy, here is my comment…
What I said is 100% true about myself. You didn’t know me when I was a member of The City Church where I put a high value on money, then when I was sanctified by Christ where I put a much greater value on Him now.
You really don’t read my posts…I will make it easy for you again.
If you don’t know what that means, then I suggest you sell all you have for the great pearl of God’s Kingdom…it is well worth it.
Kat asked about churches in Portland.
Kat, we attended Calvary Temple on 102nd (or so) and SE Division (right across the street from Christian Supply Store) for 2 years or so; it might be nice to try out: it’s small, friendly, when we were there, they let anyone share in the Sunday AM service if they had something on their heart; they have Bible study before the service and they believe strongly in prayer and healing and the Portland Healing Rooms minister there quite often; they do not emphasize tithing or giving and the pastor admitted publicly that ever since they just trusted the Lord and allowed people to give voluntary offerings into boxes in the back of the church building, they church income has increased enough for them to build a church bookstore…
we left because I don’t believe, as they do, (1) that it’s the End Times, (2) that the reinstatement of the state of Israel in 1948 was the major sign of the last generation; (3) that Mike Bickle’s interpretation of the Book of Revelation and the OT prophets is correct and therefore taught regularly (4) that an emphasis upon prayer/fasting/worship will help to usher in the Second Coming…
Overall, a church, in my opinion, worth checking out!
“Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot ######### and mammon.
Them some pretty strong words about trying to having balance between the two”
So easy to pull out a scritpture and use a blanket comment. Define serve? Give me a break a person can not ######### and have money? So, God wants me poor? You says that a person that has money is serving money?
“so please refrain from judgement calls on my character and feelings.”
That is true please forgive me that was a low blow.
“try to understand what I am saying”
You understanding of what? You dont believe God wants to prosper people financially BUT you are prospered financially, are you not?
“You didn’t know me when I was a member of The City Church where I put a high value on money, then when I was sanctified by Christ where I put a much greater value on Him now.”
Maybe the problem is or was you Craig, ever thought of that? Maybe YOU were out of line? Maybe YOU were the one that WAS serving MONEY not God. YOU put a high value on money. You should think about that. Not everyone that believes in tithing are wrong or money grubbers or are serving money. Like you did. I am glad that you responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and repented and changed.
It seems “Help Me Understand” just doesn’t understand, so there is no use in arguing with him. They are overly passionate about this topic and angrily defending their stance, which usually means a connection to one of these prosperity organizations/churches and a willingness to defend them to the end. I have found long ago that some people buy into a belief that only God can change.
I got love for you HMU, just not the time to try and change your mind about something that you believe very strongly in. I wish you all the best.
“They are overly passionate about this topic and angrily defending their stance, which usually means a connection to one of these prosperity organizations/churches and a willingness to defend them to the end.”
Dont pull this BS with me. So easy to cut and run when a person makes a good point. Maybe the problem is some “former” prosperity gospel believers were in LOVE with money and the Holy Spirit convicted them of their sin. Could that not be possible?
“I got love for you HMU, just not the time to try and change your mind about something that you believe very strongly in. I wish you all the best.”
I feel the love! I do!
I believe strongly in tithing I tithe 10% of my income every month and have for 13 years. I also give 6-8% above my tithe every year and have done that for the last 5 or 6 years. I do both out of a cheerful heart that I can help fund the kingdom of God. Do people abuse this teaching. They do abuse this teaching. Do people abuse the Grace teaching, they do abuse the grace teaching…I can list all kinds of stuff like that but i wont.
So…show me how I pulled this out of context, then enlighten us to what it really means. Seriously, you sound like the Muslims I was witnessing to the other day that said the same thing about the Deity of Christ…they said I took scripture out of context, but when I read the scripture to them they didn’t have an alternate interpretation.
I never made either of these assertions…once again, quit putting words in my mouth.
Very nice…
Yes, I did think of that. The problem was with me because I believed what they taught. I had to repent from the false teachings of The City Church by loving the truth more than a lie – and leaving to a church that teaches the truth about money.
Nice…very nice. So your belief is correct because I was serving money – OR…I was serving money because I was taught incorrectly. What sounds more plausible??? How would we find out? I guess we could analyze my heart….or we could look at was actually taught at The City Church. Do you attend the City Church? Are you familiar with their teachings?
Seriously, you need to stop with the assumptions about me and keep it about the teachings we are discussing.
I abuse the grace teaching all the time. Everyday. That’s what makes it grace.
Ok, this is so great. Really. Giving is good .
And how much really ought to remain a private thing. Money is power, and some will not have as much giving power as you, while others might have more. Jesus, as we remember, turned the whole money is power thing upside down when he praised the pitiful offering of a woman who was obviously living a life of poverty. That is a fascinating story in light of this conversation, btw. He did not address her lack of financial power, or failure to be a financial success, but rather the condition of her heart.
And I suppose, with hope and optimism, that we can at least agree that no matter if you tithe strictly 10 percent, or give in random bursts, that it is the condition of the invisible interior world that God has his eye on. Not how much power we can or cannot wield with our checkbooks.
It is great, truly, that you give so generously and consistently. My family and I attend a small and some what poor church these days. Every dollar we give is acutely felt in the church’s meager budget. The median annual income at our church is a mere $12,000 a year. The median age is 27y. (this explains the low income!)
We are a church with small pockets, but big hearts. We give out Trader Joe groceries every week, donated goods to our community that we freely share at 1:15 to whomever would come and receive. No strings attached.
We took up an offering last month to buy socks for our “love child” church plant to Portland’s invisible and powerless homeless people. $57 dollars came in for that, and with it we were able to buy over 100 pairs of new socks to keep the feet of those who live outside healthy and strong.
It’s not much power in the way of financial power. But it is definitely a lot in the currency of kindness. And that, I believe, is the point.
I am not putting words in your mouth. I asked a question. Does God want me to be poor?
“I was serving money because I was taught incorrectly. What sounds more plausible???”
Or it was your fault for not know the bible for yourself. We should search the scriptures ourselves to find out what is being taught is true.
I do not attend the city church and yes I know their teachings.
“I abuse the grace teaching all the time. Everyday. That’s what makes it grace.”
Depends what in your mind is the true biblical teaching of grace is. Then again that is sore spot to me. I think the teaching of grace is more abused then prosperity.
Now, to the rest of your post:
I loved it! My comment on the % i give in no way was to be boasting and if that was please forgive me. I do agree God looks at the heart. I can tithe 10% yet in my heart if I am all mad and angry because I have to give. I believe that gives no pleassure to Him at all.
Thanks for such a great post!
I don’t know about God. But after reading your last 20 comments, I’ve decided I want you to be poor.
Perhaps, it is up to each of us to decide where our riches reside.
The wise man, builds on the Rock …
I couldn’t have given a better example of why I don’t believe in the “Prosperity Gospel” or in strict, meticulous tithing of 10% to the local arm of the institutionalized church.
Do you see the fallacies in your argument? Do you see the way that you automatically revert the blame back to the person who disagrees with you, saying that the reason they don’t understand your argument is their problem, not yours? Do you see how zealously you defend your precious gospel in the face of criticism without considering the arguments of others? Do you see the passive aggressive nature of your responses, how you’ve reverted from arguing a point to aggressive ad hominem’s to defend your dear gospel of prosperity?
This is the fruit of your gospel. This is what we’ve already rejected.
Once again, you don’t understand what I write. I said I took responsibility and left once I learned the real gospel of Jesus Christ. The bottom line, I followed a false gospel, and they still teach it. Shame on them, and praise God He led me out.
I don’t think it is His main goal, and I don’t think He really cares. God wants us to be Holy. I think the best scripture to show us how God views riches is in Revelation:
This is how Jesus deals with the church that has money:
Here is how Jesus deals with the poor church:
Jesus didn’t care who was rich and who was poor. Actually those who you would call poor, Jesus called rich, and those who we would say are rich, Jesus called “wreched, miserable and poor”. The scary thing is they thought they were prospering in all things (sound familiar)? Remember, He was talking to a church.
I do not see any room here that God’s purpose for us in this life is “your best life now”. If we are poor, He does not promise to take us out of poverty, He told that church it would get worse. He desires we be faithful unto death regardless of being rich or poor, in prison or out of prison, sick or healthy. We are to love the Lord no matter what our circumstances are and to not covet any other circumstances.
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YES!
God wants you to be His.
——-
But cat’s answer is pretty good, too.
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Why?
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I thought you had love for me! Now I’m hurt…
“Once again, you don’t understand what I write.”
Oh I understand, I dont agree with you.
“I don’t think it is His main goal, and I don’t think He really cares. God wants us to be Holy.”
You dont think God really cares about wealth or poverty? If He doesnt care why do you? And why should I care? Why are we talking then?
“He desires we be faithful unto death regardless of being rich or poor, in prison or out of prison, sick or healthy. We are to love the Lord no matter what our circumstances are and to not covet any other circumstances.”
This I agree with 100%.
Because you said this in an earlier post…
I think that is a false hope for Christians. That’s why we are still talking.
Its funny, you really haven’t used any biblical support for your view and have not dealt with the scriptures I have used…just a thought.
Help Me Understand, help me understand.
Would you be willing to find me some examples of New Testament Christians whose lives would back up the teachings of the Prosperity Doctrine?
Maybe you could find an example of someone who was real good with tithing and giving and God blessed them for it and gave them more (exceedingly, abundently, and pouring out all over).
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The bible is full ############# that talk about blessing, abundance, prosperity, prosperous, fruitfulness, goodness, generosity, generous, giving, sowing, bountiful, wealth, riches etc.
I believe God wants me to tithe so that we can see ########## of Jesus Christ spread through out the world.
Regarding your comment about scriptures:
It depends on how you want to interrupt the scriptures and depending what commentary, bible, theological schooling or books we read.
Rev 3:17-18
17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.
What about a rich person that believes and knows that with Christ he is lost, miserable, poor, blind and naked. How can you lump everyone into the same basket as a person this scripture is talking about. A person who is rich and doesnt realize that he has nothing and the the true riches is found in a relationship with Jesus Christ.
18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see.
My goodness He is speaking to a church that is so wealthy and so caught up in its wealth that He wants them to realize that they needed to focus on Him so to speak. Not to just focus on worldly riches. BUT, you can not say that every person that has wealth is caught up in that wealth.
Matt 10:33-35
33 But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven. 34 “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword. 35 ‘I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
matt 10 is a wonderful chapter: This is where He sends out His disciples for the first time and were His instructions and admonishments to His disciples as they went out to preach.
In Him coming He was not bring peace to the earth in the way that the Jewish people thought the Messiah was coming to bring peace. He was coming to cause even more conflict with the religious leaders and system.
He told them not to take money with them but people would provide for them and meet their needs. vs 9-10.
He told them they would be hated vs 22
He told them to speak what He tells them to vs 27
And so on, a wonderful chapter that all inspiring bible college students should read and know intimately.
Do I believe that there are false preachers and teachers regarding the prosperity doctrine or whatever its called. Yes I do. Do I believe that my tithing is bad..no I dont. I believe that it used to help reach more people, pay for pastors wages, buildins etc etc etc. I know my tithing and giving has built buildings in 3rd world countries and has help provide medical car for people that need it. If thats bad, sorry.
Help me understand….once again you are way off topic. You said:
My point in bringing up Revelation was not to condmn all those with money, but to show how Jesus flips the whole idea of who is rich and who is poor by calling the poor rich and the rich poor. You just don’t get it.
Jesus said:
Since I feel like I hit a wall every time I try to communicate with you, then I think I will stop writing to you. Unfortunately, I think your desire to justify the false gospel of prosperity has made it impossible to have a logical conversation with you on the subject…so I am done.
Mormons do the same thing. It may give them a comfortable feeling, but that doesn’t justify their doctrines.
Pam said “driscoll has a rant on youtube telling his congregation not to read The Shack. ”
THE SHACK! Are there any groups of people meeting together to encourage each other/create community centered around their love relationship with God similar to the theological foundation behind this non-fiction story? (Portland or Eugene areas)
checking in, The Shack is a “non-fiction” story per your comment above?
Thanks for the response to my question David. I am not sure that church would be my cup of tea, I tried it once a while back. I will continue to search for the place that fits me.
I am trying a church tomorrow called “The Well Community Church” Anyone know anything about this church?
http://www.thewellchurch.com
Thanks again David Mackin, I enjoy reading your postings.
Kat
“My point in bringing up Revelation was not to condmn all those with money, but to show how Jesus flips the whole idea of who is rich and who is poor by calling the poor rich and the rich poor. You just don’t get it.”
What you do not get is that you do not know how to properly use the scriptute. Get out a commentary and greek dictionary and do some studying.
I agree with you it is pointless to talk with you. Talk about blind.
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I haven’t read THE SHACK but I have to say one thing. Isn’t the Shack supposed to be fiction? Are people now-a-days too gullible and even stupid to understand that fiction is not meant to be taken seriously?
I also saw on You Tube where he rants about Joel Osteen and other preachers. I’ve seen another preacher from England rant about Mark Driscoll. All of them seriously need to wake up and realize they sound the same to nonbelievers and others.
Instead of ranting what a Christian should not read, why not discuss and focus on what the Bible and Jesus teaches and show Christians how to discern for themselves, how to seek God and grow in Christ. It’d also be helpful if the preacher is not too caught up with himself and instead demonstrates how he shows love for other Christians even though he may not agree. And we are all in the process of redemption, why point out to another’s weakness. Instead focus on who God is…
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Teach us then, oh wise master. Give your argument some substance; don’t just say he’s wrong – PROVE it. Until you show the proper exegesis of that piece of Scripture, your argument is merely conjecture and you look like a bloody fool, angrily pontificating about things which you know nothing about.
That is why you’re a waste of time. Everyone else here brings some sort of evidence, follows logic, etc. You make wild claims and then think that just because you’ve claimed something to be true, it must be. You provide no substance to your case. You can sit there and use all the circular reasoning that you want, but don’t get angry when other people think for themselves instead of following your flawed logic and erroneous claims.
Nina said “haven’t read THE SHACK but I have to say one thing. Isn’t the Shack supposed to be fiction? Are people now-a-days too gullible and even stupid to understand that fiction is not meant to be taken seriously?’
David -evidently you are not familiar with this? Its a non-fiction story about a man’s dialogue with God. It’s been compared to Pilgrim’s Progress and brought to my mind Hind’s Feet on High Places from reading in my old PBC days.
According to the author it was written to communicate in a creative way to his children his own relationship with God. (He received a degree in Theology form Warner Pacific in the 70′s.)
As I was reading I recongnized subject matter more than once much along the lines of discussions I have had with my very intelligent, well read, self-taught thologian husband. He told me exactly the theological back ground that particular thought came from. (Example: Page 133 read the discussion on the nature of evil.)
Pastors are speaking against this book because it does not line up with their view of sin, heaven, hell, God’s wrath/love and Biblical inerrancy. It is thought provoking and challenges the traditional conservative view of God and the Bible while maintaining a cogent description of the trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
So NINA before you call people stupid and gullibile you should know what you are talking about because it makes you look so very ignorant.
I’ll be there…working in the nursery teaching 2 year olds the gospel…Feel free to come by and say hello.
The only other thing you need to know is that the Well Church (at least the elders….or at least one of the elders…) doesn’t like “The Shack”.
If CJ is preaching you’ll really enjoy yourself.
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Awesome!
I haven’t read “The Shack” and I have no opinion on that topic.
I will come by and say hello. Does this church not have a “senior pastor”? I didn’t see any reference to one on their website.
Thanks for the info!
The Shack comment was a bit of a joke…people get real worked up about that book and I just don’t understand it.
There is no Senior Pastor, they lead by a “team of elders” which is nice, IMHO, and it actually seems to work.
CJ is the main speaker, He preaches 2 or 3 times a month and is always excellant.
Its a good and real church. I hope you enjoy it.
Help Me Understand,
I hate to jump in on your lovefest here with Craig, but when Craig says “Your Mom” or to quote specifically:
It’s not real appropriate to come back with ‘Uh…no Craig…Your Mom” or again to quote
Lets try to step the banter up a little bit here…where trying to entertain a large audience of very bitter people…this stuff just isn’t going to cut it.
And I hate seeing people quit on a real good discussion. Come on HMU, get our your “Pressed Down, Shaken Together, and Running Out all Over Scripture” and get back in the game.
To checking in,
FYI… I rarely know people who take books seriously. I highly doubt any Christian I know would take The Shack equivalent to The Bible. A Christian friend of mine said its just a story & it was just okay.
As for my non-Christian circle, many havent heard of it. And even if The Shack was supposed to be ‘non-fiction’, I doubt it would be taken that seriously.
I have no problems with pastors sharing their views about it but I dont like the way they speak out against it. A pastor can tell what the Bible says about the trinity, compared to the shack’s views on trinity etc… but assuming that people would take it blindly?
I dont think it would be classified into non-fiction. Is he using real characters, documented real life experiences? And even the website calls it “creative, imaginative work” so technically it would be fiction.
So how about Goethe’s Faust, Milton’s Paradise Lost, or Dante’s Divine Comedy? Dante’s Divine Comedy is supposed to be his spiritual journey in a dream from hell, purgatory to heaven and told in first person in his name. Would that classify Divine Comedy into non-fiction? Of course Divine Comedy is definitely NOT theologically correct at all. I had to read it in a college class. We discussed the ideas, theology but nobody in my class, christian and non-christian, took it seriously to the level of the Bible. As for me, it helped me compare different views that are out there.
As for comparing it to Pilgrim’s Progress and Hinds feet, not sure since I havent actually read The shack. I loved Hinds feet. I think those comparisons are used to market the book. Christian publishing is a business and would resort to lousy comparisons to market a novel.
Yikes, I sound uneducated, eh? I guess I committed one of the most cardinal sins on this website
Go ahead shoot me for that, or for thinking out loud. (sarcasm)
RP – I always liked this one:
The vs. you mentioned above, made me go out and look at context …
I’ve boldened key words – it wold seem the context of what we are to give, lend generously, that will be given back to us in overflowing quantity, is:
LOVE
GOODNESS
MERCY
Elsewise, if we dispense JUDGMENT and CONDEMNATION, we should expect those to be given back to us in overwhelming proportion.
The word LEND without expectation of repayment, sure goes against most prosperity and stewardship type messages I’ve heard – how can a person amass wealth (prosperity) if he LENDS and does not demand repayment?
As for twisting the “lending” verse to mean “money”, well, if one wants to interpret that historically and culturally, it might be stretched to mean lending food or some service a person barters (carpentry, weaving or pottery, for example), but money? I think not.
Literally, the “pressed down, shaken together, running over, poured out” strongly suggests food items that are measured out – like grain or flour …
When was terminology like that ever applied to coin?
Anyway RP – Craig – there’s no making a blind man see, especially one who wishes to remain blind. I know it’s fun to duel for awhile, but really brothers, what’s your peace / shalom worth to you?
I don’t loose any sleep over the interchanges. I think of this scripture when dealing with people like “help me understand” (but it seems like he didn’t really want to understand).
We can always hope God will grant repentance…but that is the work of the Holy Spirity.
I tithe out of conviction and was tithing before I stepped foot into a church that taught tithing. I do not agree with some of the teaching I have heard but I have never seen in scripture that I should not tithe.
I tithe to support the ministry of the local church I go to. Thats why I tithe and will continue to do so.
Though I enjoy the talk and challenges me even more to study and question what and why I believe what I believe. Thanks for that!
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Thanks, I did enjoy the service however I had to leave before the sermon was finished. Great worship service and I love the fact that your church is reaching out to the community.
I didn’t have a chance to pop in to say hi. I will be back though, I liked it very much!
Thanks again RP.
“Come on HMU, get our your “Pressed Down, Shaken Together, and Running Out all Over Scripture†and get back in the game.”
Why would I do that? You assume I agree with that passage being used for tithing or giving? You know what happens when we assume?
Nina- Sorry, I do not understand your rant. Perhaps if you read the book you will better understand the comments made about it. It is not claiming, nor am I claiming it to be non-fiction. I don’t think anyone is trying to use it to replace the bible, only to assist in formation of biblical thought such as a one uses a biblical commentary. Perhaps you would benefit from theology 101 or a class on herminutics for beginners to better understand discussions on theology. I’m sure David Mackin or many other biblical scholars on this site can help you find an acceptable place to begin systematic biblical studies… if you’re serious about study of the bible. If one bases their life on a book, shouldn’t they know the details behind who wrote it, when and why.
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The Well Community Church is the best church in America.
(Of course those of you who know me, know that I am biased, so take my recomendation with a grain of salt)
I didnt understand your first response to me either, so I guess we’re even
“I don’t think anyone is trying to use it to replace the bible, only to assist in formation of biblical thought such as a one uses a biblical commentary. ”
Of course not! Those who speak out against these books seem to assume that others do. However, sometimes when I’m listening to them talk I feel as though they are talking down to the audience of adults as if they are much younger and naive.
Instead, pastors should be telling us what makes our Bible better and teach us theology rather than ‘banning’ Christians from not reading The Shack. Christians should know how to approach a novel, pray and ask Holy Spirit for discernment.
A person does not need to always study theology for that. For instance, I’ve read John Milton’s Paradise Lost in a British Lit Class in a Christian college. Back in the day, John Milton was controversial for having heretical views. He denied trinity and monist in his views. And Paradise Lost reflected that. It was his retelling of Creation. And John Milton was considered VERY controversial for his heretical Christian views.
Even today, I don’t think Milton’s Monism will be accepted in most mainline churches. He also believed that Jesus was not divine and some of his ideas about resurrection does not line up.
Before I read Paradise Lost, I didnt take his work to guide me to understand Genesis. I was very critcial and used it to contrast what the bible said vs. Miltons view. I could see a difference even though I’m not very ‘theological’. Also, since I’m a spirit-filled believer, I have the Holy Spirit to guide me. While reading some parts of Paradise Lost, I felt the Holy Spirit convicting me, ‘this part is not aligned to the Word’
I treated Paradise Lost as fiction like most people in class. We discussed the ideas. It lead me to question whether our Bible has that view. I mentioned this because I feel this is somehow related to The Shack or any other theological fiction of today. I’m sure if I can handle Milton, I can handle the Shack (with prayer & asking the Holy Spirit for discernment). I definitely will read it when I have time. But things are crazy.
And I studied theology for 2 years, thank you very much. I can understand basic theology but I’ll admit that even though I don’t sound too ‘ theological’ I can keep up & understand the conversations. I’m more interested in interdisciplinary, philosophy and Literature. So whenever I read novels, I tend to interpret it from a different angle. That’s just me. I’m an English major. I can tell you that the average reader interprets and appreciates books in different ways.
I think being too focused on one discipline is not beneficial. I have no desire to study theology anymore. Why? I took it for two years. Maybe its because the Bible College I went to was a joke. I looked at other colleges and they all sound the same to me.
From my experience, more Theology doesnt really help me get closer to God, have an understanding of His truths, or help me relate the gospel to others. I’m not against theology but I dont want to study it anymore.
Nina… Now I understand what you were saying. Thanks for the clarification.
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Help me Understand – I agree with your comments and Praise God for your integrity. I has some similiar exchanges with this group. Keep your faith in what YOU know to be the truth. Very Few people on this blog will comment on what they DO believe, they just want to criticize you for your beliefs. The Bible clearly says to test the spirits. I have read very few comments claiming Jesus to be their Lord and Savior. Most on this site are just looking for ways to hurt the gospel and those that love it. You can tell by their language. I read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and believe every word to be the inspired word of God. Most on this site remind me of modern day Pharisees, they want to trip you up on their “knowledge” and discount your experiences with the HOLY SPIRIT. Stay plugged in. Blessings!
Hogwash, FormerACCMember.
What I have discovered time and again among those who have the gift of the Holy Spirit, is that they have placed the Holy Spirit in subjection to their own (human) understanding. If only a person would read the scripture where it specifically says “lean NOT on your own understanding”, but to lean on Him wholly, that same Holy Spirit would teach a person the ways of God (1 John 2:27) AND would expose the myriad errors in your human understanding. Among the ‘towers of babel’ humans have erected that come “crashing down” when human understanding is yielded to the Holy Spirit, is the man-made abomination of institutionalized religion, aka “churchianity” … there is NOTHING in scripture that even remotely looks like a CBC or an ACC … yet countless believers accept their doings as authentic Biblical Christianity.
Oh and HMU – to say “I have never seen in scripture that I should not tithe” is easily the worst excuse to tithe I’ve ever heard. Nothing in scripture says that you should not hit yourself over the head with a baseball bat, either. I genuinely hope you don’t rush out and buy a Louisville Slugger …
Your comment is familiar though. I once felt much the same and wrote about it in my article To Tithe or not to Tithe, the $earch for Truth … here’s an excerpt.
FormerACCMember – I hope that before you shoot your mouth off again about what the people on this blog “believe” – such a broad brush you used – I hope you’ll at least do some reading first. Frankly, the people I’ve met here are just trying to escape the clutches of greedy organized religion to find something real. Many of them have had experiences like I’ve had above – blind eyes were opened to painful truth about the churches they once supported. This is where I believe they are truly ruled by the Holy Spirit: they DARED ask the Holy Spirit to teach them AND to open their eyes – a dangerous prayer, indeed. Why, praying like that will ruin you for religion!
Sam
to checking in,
well, its hard to be 100% clear on a website. U dont see my face and hear me. glad u see where i’m coming from
“Nothing in scripture says that you should not hit yourself over the head with a baseball bat, either. I genuinely hope you don’t rush out and buy a Louisville Slugger …”
But, there are scriptures in the bible that tell a person to tithe. Is that not correct?
“In the main office of a church I attended years ago, I was fixing a computer one Friday morning. Two young black women, with 3 adorable children dressed in their Sunday best, came into the office to ask for a food donation. The 3 secretaries of our all white upper middle class church stared at them, and finally one said nervously “our deacon of benevolence is in the office on Thursday afternoons – can I make an appointment for you next Thursday?†One of the women pleaded “We can’t wait a week, we need food nowâ€. The secretary repeated her offer, and I became sick to my stomach. I left quickly and drove a mile up the road to a cash machine and came directly back to the church only to find that the 2 women and 3 children had left empty handed. The staff did not know where they had gone, and I returned to my car and wept. I felt as if I had failed but the Lord said “you did not fail son, the church failedâ€. ”
I am glad that you went to the cash machine to purchase the food. It is good to see that you had the money to do so. Are you saying a church should not have proper way of giving out food, clothing or money to people in need?
I am sure it had something to do with the white church workers and the black in need mother and children…that was pathetic to puit that in there.
HMU, please show me one scripture, OT or NT, where a person is directed to tithe MONEY.
Sam
No where does it say to tithe money. But, it shows tithing the currency of what made the world operate. Cows, goats, gold, silver, camels, sheep etc etc etc. Hey, I will take your cows!
C’mon dog, really? Please explain to my why you come on here because I genuinely want to know. If you hate this site so much, why read and post? Why waste 10-20 minutes of your time on something that disgusts you? What’s the point of posting comments questioning others Christianity? Because basically you are doing something that you claim you hate: judgment. How is that obedience to the Holy Spirit?
Right on Sam. Good stuff.
Again, 2 comments – still no one professing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Talk is cheap.
I can’t help to think of how silly (and childish) your assertions are. Do I have to say the magic words to talk to you and do 20 jumping jacks, or can you recognize truth without the magic words?
Is there a secret handshake too?
Another ACC Member,
Clinging to doctrinal belief’s is not necessarily integrity. If he was defending his faith in Jesus, I would understand the need to “keep your faith”. But in the context of defending the doctrine of tithe, it seems a bit over the top. I understand it is a figure of speech, but part me thinks the statement reveals the importance of this doctrine to those who hold to it. Like its sacred or something.
In fairness, I think there is a lot of both. But in case it was confusing, those who reject the tithing doctrine generally believe that each should do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or out of compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Amen.
Are you suggesting that people’s arguments should be dismissed if they have not make a public confession of faith in Christ in their post? I think the fact that we debate what the Bible requires of us suggests we believe the gospel message is important.
The fact that you equate criticism of certain institutions and doctrines with “hurting the gospel and those who love it” shows just highly you have exalted those institutions and doctrines. If Jesus appeared to you in the flesh and told you that your church is mostly wrong and the city business church folks are mostly right, whose side would you be on?
I think this is the heart of the discussion. Frequently, experience with the “Holy Spirit” is elevated above anything written in the revealed word of God. Our concern is that your experience with the Holy Spirit is in conflict with what God has written in His word? Reasonable minds can disagree about when that happens. But, for a moment, assume that it can happen. Should we trust our ability to hear the holy spirit so much that we change our view of scripture based on what we think the Holy Spirit said? Or, should we examine everything we believe the Holy Spirit said to us through the filter of scripture to make sure that we aren’t being misled by ulterior motives and/or emotion?
DOC
P.S. I promise I’m not trying to hurt the gospel or anyone who loves it and I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior.
“C’mon dog, really?”
In the hood it is spelled dawg or dogg never dog. Just want to help.
“Please explain to my why you come on here because I genuinely want to know. If you hate this site so much, why read and post? Why waste 10-20 minutes of your time on something that disgusts you?”
I have to agree with this statement. I enjoy this site. Not because I want to prove all the blinded people wrong. BUT, there are many things I agree with.
And you never answered my question?
Thanks for the “help” dog…but just so you know, I grew up in NE Portland before it was gentrified, I am a black male, and I now live in Los Angeles California. Not sure what your background is but I doubt it’s one that is the authority on how people talk in the “hood.” I know you are just joking, but sometimes humor can be done very poorly and this is one of those times.
AnotherACCMember said: “Again, 2 comments – still no one professing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.”
AnotherACCMember, Read my blogger lips: Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.
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Ya, you dont know me. I am an authority about the “hood” and just because you are a black male who lives in LA doesnt mean nothing to me. Thats for real..
AACCM said:
well dangit. i am so totally busted. i knew i shouldn’t have taken that red pill.
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AnotherACCMember, perhaps you’d like to read a bit of my testimony? See http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blogblog/2007/06/11/christ-and-him-crucified/
Perhaps you’d like to listen to some of my music at http://www.lordyouare.com
Did you read the series of tithe articles I linked? If you had, you’d know for certain how I feel about Jesus.
Sam
Dave,
I’m totally changing your user name to “Blogger Lips” …
Sam
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WOW Sam. . beautiful testimony. (and music)
Can you show me where it says to tithe Cows, Goats, Gold, Silver, Camels or even sheep for that matter?
Do I have to tithe camels if I smoke Winstons?
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No, Winstons are good as well.!
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Really? What do you think people tithed? It was currency. What was the currency of those days?
Can you show me what they tithed?
So you make a statement… I challange you to prove that statement, and now you want me to prove my challange?
That’s not how this works. Why can’t you back up your statements?
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Thats how it works. I can always give you a hug!
Good luck.
craig and help me understand, Israel had to tithe the produce of the land as well as their animals:
‘Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S; it is holy to the LORD…
‘For every tenth part of herd or flock, whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the LORD. Lev. 27:30,32, NASB
For a history of money, ingots, and coinage I suggest you consult a scholarly Bible dictionary, e.g., The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible and/or The Anchor Bible Dictionary and/or The New Bible Dictionary and look under related topics.
I find it interesting that if Jesus was a carpenter, he wasn’t required to tithe under the law…am I missing something here?
David wrote:
“‘Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S; it is holy to the LORD…
‘For every tenth part of herd or flock, whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the LORD. Lev. 27:30,32, NASB”
What type of animal would have been in a herd? Probably some cows and sheep? And I bet that they used cows and sheep as currency or sold the cows and sheep for money.
Key words in that scripture, often over looked: “tithe OF THE LAND” …
Now realistically, man can NOT make anything grow – whether it be fruit or grain … whether something brings forth a crop or not, is dependent on God who sends the sun, rain, warmth … dial your clocks back 3000+ years to when that was written … no chemicals to control weeds or pests, no ammonia for the soil – no machines to till or harvest – no irrigation systems. All man could do is prepare the earth and plant the seed – the rest was up to God. Hence, God owning the harvest.
The reason for the tithe, was largely to feed the priests who worked at the temple – they did NOT have land on which to grow food crops … it also fed the poor …
So did carpenters, textile workers, potters, have to tithe? Nope. There’s a scripture in the NT which says “nothing beyond what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6) …
The scriptures concerning the tithe, mention the fruit OF THE LAND and the offspring of herds and flocks – that which GOD causes to come forth. Only farmer’s (the ‘husbandman’) tithe. Even so, God doesn’t require the first fruits, as Paul writes in 2 Timothy 2:6:
The scripture cited from Leveticus says it’s the 10th (last one) that passes under the rod that is set aside for God. So why do the tithe-mongers preach that it’s the FIRST 10% goes to God? Haven’t they read the scriptures they claim to preach from?
And what of the admonition “do NOT go beyond what is written?” How does that affect the common practice of applying the OT example of tithing from the harvest of the earth, to money? That’s going beyond what is written!