Where do you go to church?
Posted on May 12th, 2008 by catalyst into the Comments From Others categoryGreat question from a reader:
Alright. So, I'm a transplant from California to Seattle. Let me tell you, I've had considerable trouble finding a church to join up here, largely due to many of the doctrinal issues I just read in your blog. (Funny story: someone recommended City Bible as a church for me, and I googled them and found this site.) Fortunately, I grew up in a church that taught me about grace properly. My problem now is finding a church that will keep me honest and provide some nourishment without helping me become more self-righteous than I probably already am. Do you have any suggestions?
Do any of you Seattle readers have any ideas?
May 12th, 2008 at 7:50 am
The Seattle Revival Center might be a good place to start. We know a few people there, and when we have visited the church and gone out to lunch with them, they have seemed very sincere and friendly. I don’t know many details about the church, however.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:06 am
Mars Hill
May 12th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Do not go to Mars Hill!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They have financial and leadership issues.
If you are a Charismatic Christian looking for a good Home Church that is not all about control I recommend Christian Faith Center http://www.caseytreat.com/
Some of the people on this blog just do not believe in the Charismatic Doctrine at all so they may bash Casey Treat. The main church doctrins are mainstream Charismatic with a special focus on building strong families. Renewing your mind is something you would hear often there as they tend to reach out to former drug and alcohol addicts.
But its a good church built on good people who do a lot in the community …
You will not find a site like this dedicated to destroying CFC because people who leave that church usually have a good experience there. Great kids program, good out reach that is set up for the community and not for the church. For example: They give food to the food bank … they do not set up their own food bank and make people go to church to receive their charities. They gave a lot of money to the flood victims in Washington this last winter.
That is my 2 cents.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Dear Reader,
To my present knowledge, both Christian Faith Center (CFC) and New Beginnings Christian Center (NBCC) teach the Prosperity Doctrine very heavily. Are you looking for that?
CFC hired me in the early 1990’s to help them develop curriculum for their new college. After my wife and I visited the church and visited with some church/staff members, we decided that their emphasis upon the Prosperity Doctrine that was being preached from the pulpit was not actually being experienced by the staff members to whom we spoke. So, I called them from an overseas ministry trip, and said thanks but no thanks. If you’re not looking for a church where the senior pastor is the center, then I’d consider looking elsewhere.
A good way to find a church after you check out the web site and pray about it, is to listen to some of the key sermons from the pastor - esp. the typical ones on Becoming A Member and The Vision of this House - is to visit for awhile and just see… then come back and share with us how you felt!
P.S. I just visited with a great woman of God the other day who has been in the ministry of the gospel for many years. As I shared with her about how I have gone to many different churches, ended up confronting the senior pastors, and then being asked to leave (in one way or another), she said to me:
“The difference between you and me is that after I’d confront the senior pastor I’d STAY in the church. I wouldn’t leave. I think that we give too much power to evil!”
May 12th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
I’m with David, stay away from CFC. They tried to hire me to teach in their (K-12) school, but once I found out how emeshed and dysfunctional (not to mention theologically OFF) it was, I declined. A friend of mine did teach in the CFC school and had a complete nightmare experience. Also, CFC isn’t really IN Seattle (I think it’s in Kent, considerably south of Seattle).
Unfortunately, I don’t know of a good church in Seattle. Lots of my friends like Mars Hill, but I can’t personally vouch for it, and given its position on women in ministry and a couple of other things, I’d likely not attend it if I lived in the area.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
University Presbyterian.
Great place for anyone… intellectuals, families, or homeless
May 12th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Timberlake Fellowship is worth a try.
–p
May 13th, 2008 at 7:26 am
David where do you go to church?
May 13th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Help Me Understand, We fellowship at a house church in Sandy, Oregon.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:16 am
What is a house church? Would that be like a cell group type of thing or different?
May 13th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Help Me Understand, Our “house church” is very simple; it’s a group of Christians who meet regularly for prayer, worship, food, fellowship and Bible input. Unlike some cell groups, we are not “under the covering” of a local church or denomination.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Cool, thanks.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:37 am
I listen to a lot of Sermons from Mark Driscoll at Mars Hill Church…From what I’ve heard so far I feel he has real sound doctrine. I don’t know anything about the church…but I enjoy Pastor Mark’s teaching. I’d say it’s worth checking out.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Ken Ross has a church in the Seattle area I believe….
May 13th, 2008 at 11:11 am
House/Home church references in scripture:
ACTS 5:42
And every day, in the temple and at home, they ceased not to teach and to preach Jesus as the Christ.
ACTS 8:3
But Saul laid waste the church, entering into every house, and dragging men and women committed them to prison.
ACTS 16:40
And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.
ACTS 20:20
how I shrank not from declaring unto you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly, and from house to house,
ROMANS 16:3-5
Salute Prisca and Aquila my fellow-workers in Christ Jesus, who for my life laid down their own necks; unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles: and salute the church that is in their house. Salute Epaenetus my beloved, who is the first-fruits of Asia unto Christ.
1 CORINTHIANS 16:19
The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Prisca salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
COLOSSIANS 4:15
Salute the brethren that are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church that is in their house.
PHILEMON 1:2
and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:
AND NOW let’s see if anyone can come up with as many scriptures to support the idea of building dedicated church buildings … let alone lop-sided bood-like domes with jumbotrons …
May 13th, 2008 at 11:13 am
“bood-like” should have been “boob-like” …
May 13th, 2008 at 11:35 am
mars hill church is actually in controversy in the blogosphere on a fairly regular basis. most recently, driscoll has a rant on youtube telling his congregation not to read The Shack. For many people, this is troubling in and of itself for a leader to exercise this kind of censorship in his church. But there is a long track record of Driscoll publicly saying outrageous things, sexist things and such, that he is a very controversial figure. Great speaker, for sure, great sense of humor, I get the appeal. But do your homework on why Driscoll and his reformed theology, particularly about women, riles many people on a regular basis.
There is a cool vineyard church in Shoreline. Not too big. Not too small. Contemporary and authentic. Charismatic, but not hyped. Rich and Rose Swetman co-pastor it, with Rose having more of the spotlight. Rich has an amazing story of how he used to be a superstar prophet who travelled the world, calling words of the Lord to total strangers and wowing people everywhere he went. But all was not well, and eventually he gave up platform ministry. He will tell you himself that he loves seeing his wife have the spotlight instead of himself. They are both very respected leaders in their region. Shoreline Vineyard.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
On Mars Hill
http://westseattleblog.com/blog/?p=4583
I said from the get-go that many many people on this blog do not like the “mainstream” Charismatic doctrin including healing and prosperity. So I am not surprised by the comments about it.
The City Church and City Bible have issues that are repeated over and over on this site I will not take anything away from that. But if you are “Mainstream” Charismatic Christian CFC is the way to go!
They have 2 campuses main campus is in Federal Way and the other is in Everett.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
“particularly about women,”
Like what?
May 13th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Like women are to be quiet in Church. Like no women can be in any leadership position in the Church. No woman should ever question any man in Church or the Home.
Bad doctrine about women aside they have had huge financial problems and several of the top leadership have been removed.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
“several of the top leadership have been removed.”
who?
and regarding the other point you made. Have you EVER studied the scriptures regarding women in ministry? If you have, I would like you to please give me the details of your study.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Really? Do the women-folk wear bonnets too?
On the upside, if women aren’t involved the services should be manly, not prissy like in the churches where the women-folk do service planning.
Maybe at a church like that a guy can get a man-size hunk of bread and full glass of vino to wash it down - and not that little pinky-sized crumb they serve at the UFC.
I like the idea.
‘Scrupe
May 13th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
this made me laugh……….!
May 13th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Actually the women should be silent is taken out of context. It doesnt mean that a woman should not talk at all. If its taken literally, she cannot technically be a sunday school teacher. And Paul later tells women to cover their head while prophesying. If a woman is supposed to be quiet and not talk, how can she prophesy if she cannot speak in the church?
It may be a contradiction but thats when we need to look at context. Lanny Hubbard explained this to me a while ago.
The first verse needs to be put in the right context. For instance, in the book and chapter, the idea was about order in the church. In those days, men and women sat separately because of the culture. (Actually, in some middle eastern countries during religious rites including church services men and women sit separately)….well those women were not educated and when they didnt understand a verse they would yell over to their husbands or people around and actually interupt the service. That verse was refering to a certain group of women in one place, not all women in general. Paul said for those women to talk with their husbands at home because he was actually encouraging the men to share their knowledge with the women. Traditionally, women could not study the Torah or scriptures because educating women was not a priority.
And didn’t Acts talk about Philip the evangelist’s four virgin daughters that prophesied?
As for submission, the bible only tells women to submit to their husbands. But the next verses tell the husband to love their wives like how Christ gave his life for the church. The Bible DOES NOT say that women should submit to all men or that she cannot question a man.
If a man who is not my husband wants me to submit to him, I’ll kick his ass. And submission means respect or cooperation with the husband not being dominated or having a subservient role.
As for women in ministry if you guys get a chance, talk to Lanny Hubbard. He wrote his masters thesis about that topic and he once gave me his paper. There is a book, “Why not women?”
May 13th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
As for mars hill, I visited when I was there and checked out the websites and media. I wasnt particularly impressed. It seemed that Mark Driscoll is trying too hard to impress others and purposefully trying to be edgy and get attention. I feel that he lacks respect, concern and sensitivity towards others. Or that was my impression. I may be wrong but thats what I felt.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Uh, fomer NBCC member, you wouldn’t seriously tell someone to not go to a church based on what you read in a blog would you? I would hope you would get your information from a more credible source.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
I officially nominate this for best post ever.
May 14th, 2008 at 5:13 am
Hi Nina,
Looking at scripture in historical and cultural context is very important; in ministering to the Corinthians, who came out of paganism and temple shrine prostitution, the women as I understand it, were downright disgusting in their treatment of men, coarse and overtly sexual in their speech and disruptive in assemblies of the body for teaching and fellowship.
So Paul’s instructions were to address a specific situation, to restore order in the Church. I believe it also had to do with helping to restore the dignity of men in their homes.
What I know, I’ve just read here and there, discussed with a few learned friends, but I’m no scholar on that issue. For me, I want a wife who walks by my side, not several steps behind me. Personally, I am a believer that the ‘curse’ spoken in the garden ‘your husband will rule over you’, came to an end at the cross, since as we often say “Jesus redeemed us from the curse” … though sadly, there are men who seem to want their wives to continue under the curse. My wife is every bit the vessel of Christ Jesus that I am, every bit as filled with the Spirit and gifted. Why would any man want to silence a vessel in Christ Jesus, if she is sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit and speaks with the anointing of Christ Jesus?
What I take away from that passage to the Corinthians for today, is that everyone, male and female, need be sensitive to the move of the Holy Spirit in the assembly and NOT to quench the Holy Spirit by an outburst of the flesh.
Several years ago, I sang a few songs at a meeting of the Aglow women in my area and we had a very tender time of worship together. As we were concluding worship and just enjoying a time of silence before the Lord, a woman in the audience began singing a song of the spirit and my wife was moved to reply in kind, whereby the 2 women sang a duet in a sort of echo and reply exchange. It was beautiful and edifying. Until a man (pastor) who was there, interrupted the singing during a brief pause with a loud and obnoxious prayer of thanksgiving for “a godly president in George W. Bush” … the 2 women wept and heaved for the way the man quenched the Holy Spirit in them and the Holy Spirit seemed to leave the room like the air was suddenly sucked out of it …
It saddens me even now to think that one person, with an outburst of the flesh (whether male or female), can de-rail the sweet communion of the Holy Spirit in an assembly of the saints. That I believe is the core issue Paul sought to address in his instructions to the Corinthians, which in that time and culture, was principally a woman problem. Had he been writing a letter to the Aglow women of Chicago who were in the habit of inviting their hireling husbands, I imagine he’d have told the men to sit down and shut up.
‘Scrupe
PS - I still like the idea of ‘Hungry Man’ portions during communion.
May 14th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Just wanted to clarify:
I have no problem with women in ministry. In leadership, preaching and teaching. Whatever, go for it ladies!
“If a man who is not my husband wants me to submit to him, I’ll kick his ass.”
Nina-I am getting to like you! You sound like my wife! hahaha!
I have book called “Why Not Women” by Loren Cunningham and David Hamilton. Could be a good resource for some to read.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:17 am
There are times when someone will say something that is so poorly informed it causes you to be skeptical about everything they say. This is one such comment.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:45 am
“There are times when someone will say something that is so poorly informed it causes you to be skeptical about everything they say. This is one such comment.”
DOC:
I am not mis representing Mars Hill’s doctrine. I have heard his messages on the Radio broadcasts here in Seattle and he has said so much and more. To his credit he believes women can serve as leaders of Government and Business. But that hardly discounts how he preaches about women in the Church.
It is poor doctrine in my opinion and doesn’t equate with other scriptures in the Bible both New and Old Testaments. I have long decided I will not argue doctrine on this blog because I clearly disagree with many posters interpretations of scriptures on here.
Several people on here in earlier Posts and comments have defended Mars Hill’s doctrine on women. I am actually pleasantly surprised by the majority opinion here that Women should be voiced in church.
I disagree with most people on this blog on: Prosperity and Healing. Just because a few looser “Pastors” take things out of context and implement scripture for their own personal gain doesn’t mean the doctrines are wrong.
I feel strongly that CFC (Whom I am no longer a member but have been twice) doesn’t have the controlling issues City Church has. I feel strongly that CFC has a balanced approach to Healing as when Casey went through his own sickness he continued to go to the doctor and do what the doctor said while praying and believing in healing. He was/Is healed and many people have similar testimonies in that church to share. He has a similar balanced approach to prosperity and I agree with it. Others here don’t and that is what they have come to after their studies in the Bible and I do not have a problem with that.
The originator asked for an opinion and I gave mine. If the originator of the question is a Mainstream Charismatic they will feel at home in CFC. If they are not maybe they wont but that is for them to decide.
I strongly feel Mars Hill is off on several issues. They can not get their money right and going through difficulties. You may not see this as a problem but the bible does. Several of the Sermons on the Mount deal with how to be responsible with your money. I find that as a big issue more then their approach to women in the church. If I am giving to my church (gasp) I want to know that the church is a responsible with that money. I want to know what outreaches they do. Nobody …. NOBODY … does more in the Puget Sound then CFC. Other then large denominations like the Catholics. And CFC is known to team up with other churches to do even more (Something I never saw at City Church).
This is a personal decision for this person picking a church. I feel a church should have sound doctrine compared to how you interpret it. If you do not agree with the tenants of any church … Do not Go there! It should have people that fit your culture … some people like the old hymns others like Christian Rock/Worship others like Big Band and some like folk music. Find a church that has the music you enjoy it will make your praise and worship that much better for you. And you should enjoy the people you meet there. If you do not meet anyone in the 1st day that you can relate with … find somewhere you can.
Every denomination and or Non-Denomination church has its own culture and doctrines, I feel strongly that you should try to fit into a placed that was designed for you rather then trying to design a place around you.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:57 am
former NBCC Member wrote: Every denomination and or Non-Denomination church has its own culture and doctrines, I feel strongly that you should try to fit into a placed that was designed for you rather then trying to design a place around you.
NBCC, I agree to a certain extent with what you are saying; it is advice that is both political and practical; at the same time, if people take it as the last word on the subject of church attendance, then they might see themselves as those who should never question, confront or actually try to change the church in which they find themselves.
As I posted before: The other day a woman of God who has an international ministry of compassion and Bible teaching told me:
The difference between you and me, David, is that after you confront the leadership of a church and they show displeasure toward you, you leave. Not me: I would stay. We give too much power to evil when we always end up leaving…
May 14th, 2008 at 9:04 am
So if CFC is so great. How come you left?
May 14th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Former NBCC Member,
I don’t want to make this another discussion about Mars Hill and women. I have concerns about Mars Hill, as with every church. But I aslo see them mischaracterized alot so I felt obligated to jump in.
Yes you are.
Nonsense. They believe that woman aren’t to be the primary teachers when the entire church gets together. But the idea that women at Mars Hill walk around in silence is… umm… bizarre.
Also untrue. They believe the requirement in Titus and 1 Timothy that an elder is to be a “one woman man” limits the office of elder to men. As a result, Mars Hill does not have women as elders. But they serve and lead in all sorts of other capacities.
I’ll wager dinner that you can’t find a 2 people at Mars Hill to agree with that statement. (There’s a wingnut in every group). They encourage men and women to be temperate and gracious about all their opinions, regardless of the gender involved. But if you’re concerned about that, take it up with Jesus
I know nuance can be annoying, but sometimes it’s important. This is a controversial issue and I think reasonable minds can disagree. Misrepresenting another’s position is a great way to incite prejudice against them. So if thats your goal, carry on. However, if your goal is to discuss important disagreements while maintaining unity in the body of Christ, you’ll be more effective if you actually understand the position you disagree with.
Cheers
DOC
May 14th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Except here’s the problem: if a person has no “position” within the system then they have no access to those with control. And even if that person did manage to access the controller, his comments would be met with “I’m sorry you feel that way” or some similar sentiment. And basically the message is, “If you’re not on board with the vision, then get off the ship.”
So then the person has these options:
1. Stay, with no access to confront the one who controls.
2. Speak to others, therefore drawing accusations of dissention.
3. Leave.
During all this, one can pray. But one can still pray in the event of any of these scenarios. (Been there, done that.)
May 14th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
I left because I moved
May 14th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I have no idea who Casey Treat is or CFC (???) and in fact I really don’t care cause it sounds like just another lost and floundering church to me. But I do have to say that your statement about the prosperity doctrine is way off. How can you use scripture to defend your arguments and then say something like this? Jesus consistantly spoke out against money and riches. Now I’m not saying its wrong to be rich, but it is wrong to intertwine the Gospel with riches. I don’t understand how someone can honestly believe that God wants to reward people with earthly material posessions for being “good” Christians. He’s the ruler of the universe with all the money in the world. The last thing He cares about is making people rich! What a joke that is. The prosperity doctrine is wrong and no one will ever be able to come up with a true biblical basis for supporting it’s message. There are just to many scriptutal references against excess wealth.
May 14th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
“There are just to many scriptural references against excess wealth.”
What scriptures are against excess wealth? Seems to me God sure blessed the socks off of King Solomon!
Shoot, Queen of Sheba sent him 25 tons of gold every year after her first visit thats: $519,000,000 in gold ever year by now a days prices. Hey, thats not excess! Thats a half of billion dollars…just in gold.
I am not saying I agree with all the very weird teachings out there. BUT, all i got to say is King Solomon was doing ok.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
King Solomon???? If I’m not mistaken he lived before Jesus, before the new covenant, and before the our sin nature was wiped out by Christ’s death on the cross, chaning everything. Please don’t us Old Testemant references for a New Testament issue.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Oh, I see. We throw out the entire OT. Is that what you are saying? Are you telling me that you never sin?
May 14th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Not only that. You said:
“There are just to many scriptural references against excess wealth.”
Where are the scriptures in the NT that talk about excess wealth?
I am not trying to fight with you, honestly.
May 14th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
I don’t have time for pettiness…
Just go do a word study on “rich,” “money,” and “wealth” and let God lead you. See what you discover.
May 14th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
“I don’t have time for pettiness…”
Really, is that what it is? Ok.
Just go do a word study on “rich,” “money,” and “wealth” and let God lead you. See what you discover.
With all respect given to you. Dont insult me. Give me a break. You said:
“There are just to many scriptural references against excess wealth.”
Then you want to pull:
“…let God lead you. See what you discover.”
Whatever.
You have nothing to say.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
You could start with 1 Timothy 6.
May 15th, 2008 at 8:52 am
“You could start with 1 Timothy 6.”
This is a great chapter. I agree. It doesnt really address the comment: “There are just to many scriptural references against excess wealth.”
It does address a lot of great points!
vs 9-10
Can a person be rich and not love money?
What is rich to one person is poverty to another. Dont you think it is a heart issue? The avg middle class american is RICH to a HUGE porion of the world. If this blog is in mexico city we would be a laughing stock right now. Think about it. WE ARE ALL RICH TO MOST OF THE WORLD. To who much is given much is required.
vs 17-18
God is saying that there are rich people with us. Compared to most of the world, that would be us. That we need to command them not trust in those riches-here today gone tomorrow.
The rich are never told to get rid of their riches. Except for the rich young ruler who’s heart was CONNECTED to his MONEY. In this passage God is simply saying dont put your trust in your money.
Its my opinion and I know people are not going to like it. BUT people who dont give away money, LOVE their money. Wether that is through tithing or sowing, or scattering or giving cheerfull. Whatever you want to call it. If a person cant simply let it go-their heart is wrapped up in their money just like the rich young ruler.
May 15th, 2008 at 9:55 am
You know what, I’m glad that there are men who want an equal partner rather than a glorified servant/secretary for a wife. For years I was very troubled because of the so-called images of biblical femininity. To some people it means being a stepford wife-type. I wondered, if this is what I’m supposed to be as a ‘godly’ woman and if that is what ‘godly’ men want in a woman, I’d be single for a long time.
I ofted felt that in CBC/PBC my only role as a woman of God was to be nothing more than a pretty decoration in the pews. I was a ‘bad’ girl because I didnt fit that mold and I asked questions. I made sure to be respectful and not disrupt a class though.
Im PBC I was told this, one day a girl asks me about my calling. Of course I dont want to discuss it so I say “I don’t know”
Her answer, “You don’t, at all.”
“I have somewhat of an idea.”
“You can always get married.”
huh? She continues, ” You know our role as women is to support our husbands anyway. Maybe you’ll find your calling when you get married.”
WTF? was my reaction. I couldnt believe what I was hearing. Since I was an impressionable new believer I was stunned.
As for sexism, I browsed through the website of Mars Hill and Acts 29 network. Imago-Dei also believes that eldership is a male role and more of an ‘overseer’ but women can teach under an elder and serve as home group leaders. Women can be teachers or pastors to other women and children. Its just the primary role of eldership or teaching is for men.
As for Mars Hill, I havent been there but they dont seem to be commanding women to be housewives or stepford wife types. Women serve in other roles, leaders in the business, govt and secular positions. And when I looked at the Women’s ministry site, it seemed that the women are open about real issues. It seems that they are involved and active in other ‘ministry’ things. They discuss and ask tough questions. If the male leaders are ‘offended’ by a woman that respectfully asks questions or has her own goals of being leaders in the business world, then it’s a problem.
I’m NOT really defending Mars Hill or any other place. I browsed through their site and saying what I saw so far.
At the same time, i listened to a Mark Driscoll video of the role of pastors wvies. He said that his wife is his senior pastor. He said that pastors wives are not secretaries. He said administrative tasks can easily be delegated but no one else can do what a pastor’s wife does and among a list he mentions keeping him accountable. I’m just throwing random thoughts but that sounds interesting.
I havent seen any of Mark Driscoll videos that others say are offensive but I’m going to look for it.
Also realize that no church will 100% meet all our expectations.
May 15th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Help me Understand,
I don’t think anyone here thinks it is inherently evil to have money.
Does the prosperity gospel teach you to be satisfied with what you have or to seek “promotion” financially from the Lord?
May 15th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Churches in Portland - - Are there any good ones? I have been floating around from church to church and have yet to find a “home church”.
Any suggestions?
I grew up at BT (City Bible now) and I don’t want to end up in a church that all you hear is tithe, tithe, give, give or any church that has race issues.
Thanks
May 15th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
I think God wants me to prosper. Do you? I know there are teachings about prosperity that are way out of balance. Just like there are teachings about the Grace of God that is way out of balance.
May 15th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Define “prosper”.
May 15th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
My thoughts exactly…
May 15th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I believe God wants me to be successful in my whole life finacially, marriage, family, health, relationships etc.
Does he want me to be rich? depends how you define rich. Like I said before we live in america. Even our “american poor” are better off then those childrem living in the garbage dumps of mexico.
Now, you asked me a question now answer mine: “I think God wants me to prosper. Do you?”
May 15th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
You know … it comes down to worldly vs. spiritual focus for me … the Lord brought Karen and I cross country to a place we’d never seen before and settled us here - we struggle but get by in terms of money … one of the scriptures He gave us when we arrived, is from Isaiah “you who have NO money, come, buy …”
That’s a real mind blower - how do you buy something without money? Yet we bought it indeed, through obedience and surrender to His will, and we have become rich indeed, in Spirit.
I’ve pondered that scripture on and off for years and have come to the conclusion that IF I can buy it with money, it’s not worth having *in the spiritual* sense or if I can buy it with money, it won’t last, it won’t make me happy (for long), etc.
But that which is priceless, that which can only be bought without money, but by paying with my life, is worth more than anything this world has to offer.
There’s another scripture, a favorite - from Proverbs 31 - the wife who is worth more than rubies … she is, indeed. Genuine love, companionship, a spiritual partner - who can put a price on the value of that? Rubies? you can keep ‘em - I’ll take the spiritual wealth and the love of a beautiful wife any day.
From the heavenly perspective, worldly wealth - specifically mammon - sure seems short sighted …
Another funny thing - with kids in the house, being strapped for cash through their college years - then finally they’re gone - there’s money enough to travel, remodel the house, stash away for retirement … but the real prosperity - the real joy - is when the kids come home bearing young ‘uns of their own - a love feast with family … I’d trade the financial security to roll back the clock and have more time with my kids growing up …
Prosperity? Is wisdom, knowledge, love for family …
Money? Just fodder for the fire on the day of the Lord. Those who embrace it as treasure will find themselves empty-handed on the day of the Lord.
‘Scrupe
May 15th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Is this a prime product of being a Christian or a by-product?
Also, I think there are plenty of examples in the Bible where those who follow God are not successfull financially, in relationships, health, marriage etc. simply because the will not bend from the truth and they put God before all these things.
I do think God wants us to prosper, but in Him. If we prosper in Christ that does not guarantee we will be successful in the things you list.
Jesus said:
We do not look for peace in the world, but we look for peace only in Jesus Chrsit…and we might get peace in the world, and we might not. Untold millions of Christians didn’t find success in finances, relationships etc…they found martyrdom becasue of the name of Christ. There is no higher calling as a Christian. What you define as success and prosperity is not a guarantee of the God of the Bible.
To answer your question, God has prospered me. He washed me from the filth of my flesh and seated me in heavenly places with Christ. Everything else I count for dung in comparison, including your definition of success.
May 15th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Amen Craig.
so if you’re not successful, are you out of God’s will?
This is probably why I pretty much suck at being a Christian. I’m not very “successful” at any of those things, though success is certainly subjective. Many third world citizens would likely judge my American middle-class life as very wealthy and successful. It is a matter of perspective, isn’t it?
What concerns me most with the above statement is if this is a world view then does this world view therefore set people up for constantly chasing “success” or measuring God’s favor in one’s life by success? How do we then assess our responsibility to serve the poor or those with less power or means than ourselves? What if broken people come to Christ but really never quite get whole? It happens everyday. There is junk in my life I’m still crippled by after more than two decades of a dynamic friendship with God.
I can’t buy it. Nope. Sounds too, um, sounds too AMERICAN.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:24 am
“I do think God wants us to prosper, but in Him. If we prosper in Christ that does not guarantee we will be successful in the things you list.”
Ok, what does that mean? To prosper in Him? You are good at debating what you think it doesnt mean. What does it mean?
“Everything else I count for dung in comparison, including your definition of success.”
Do you really count it as dung? I doubt it. Easy to say sitting in one of the wealthies countries in the world. But, I bet you live in the definition of success. I bet you want to be healthy, I bet you enjoy financial prosperity, I bet you want your marriage to be wondeful and successful.
Like I said before. Looks like God financially blessed a lot of people in the bible. You can say all you want they are there. Just there are people that were killed for being a christian.
Dont you think there is a balance between the two?
May 16th, 2008 at 8:29 am
Regarding the post above where someone suggested our site is not credible because it’s a “blog” - We’re a 24/7 news site operated by journalists with 30 years’ combined experience, a city-credentialed media source, and a business. We only still have “blog” in the name because it’s become our brand, much as we’d prefer to change it because of this kind of misconception. Often “blogs” are where you get better, more up to date information than “old media” sources. Wanted to put this out there in case anyone in this thread is actually from West Seattle, since our user logs led us to the link. Thank you, now back to your theological discussion. — West Seattle Blog
May 16th, 2008 at 8:30 am
“What if broken people come to Christ but really never quite get whole?”
Why dont they?
It is not because God doesnt want them whole or because God did not provide the ability to be whole. I believe a lot of it is by choice. There is a great power in our ability to choose. Though some want to put it all on Jesus. We do play apart. I write this as a person that wants to be whole myself and have not attained that, yet. But, I have come along way and I bet..so have you.
“How do we then assess our responsibility to serve the poor or those with less power or means than ourselves?”
Serve the poor. Hey, serve the rich! Serve everyone.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Them some pretty strong words about trying to having balance between the two.
You know nothing about me, so please refrain from judgement calls on my character and feelings. If you would take the time to read my comment carefully and try to understand what I am saying I think you will see why your comment is another straw man argument. I’ll make it easy, here is my comment…
What I said is 100% true about myself. You didn’t know me when I was a member of The City Church where I put a high value on money, then when I was sanctified by Christ where I put a much greater value on Him now.
You really don’t read my posts…I will make it easy for you again.
If you don’t know what that means, then I suggest you sell all you have for the great pearl of God’s Kingdom…it is well worth it.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Kat asked about churches in Portland.
Kat, we attended Calvary Temple on 102nd (or so) and SE Division (right across the street from Christian Supply Store) for 2 years or so; it might be nice to try out: it’s small, friendly, when we were there, they let anyone share in the Sunday AM service if they had something on their heart; they have Bible study before the service and they believe strongly in prayer and healing and the Portland Healing Rooms minister there quite often; they do not emphasize tithing or giving and the pastor admitted publicly that ever since they just trusted the Lord and allowed people to give voluntary offerings into boxes in the back of the church building, they church income has increased enough for them to build a church bookstore…
we left because I don’t believe, as they do, (1) that it’s the End Times, (2) that the reinstatement of the state of Israel in 1948 was the major sign of the last generation; (3) that Mike Bickle’s interpretation of the Book of Revelation and the OT prophets is correct and therefore taught regularly (4) that an emphasis upon prayer/fasting/worship will help to usher in the Second Coming…
Overall, a church, in my opinion, worth checking out!
May 16th, 2008 at 8:50 am
“Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot ######### and mammon.
Them some pretty strong words about trying to having balance between the two”
So easy to pull out a scritpture and use a blanket comment. Define serve? Give me a break a person can not ######### and have money? So, God wants me poor? You says that a person that has money is serving money?
“so please refrain from judgement calls on my character and feelings.”
That is true please forgive me that was a low blow.
“try to understand what I am saying”
You understanding of what? You dont believe God wants to prosper people financially BUT you are prospered financially, are you not?
“You didn’t know me when I was a member of The City Church where I put a high value on money, then when I was sanctified by Christ where I put a much greater value on Him now.”
Maybe the problem is or was you Craig, ever thought of that? Maybe YOU were out of line? Maybe YOU were the one that WAS serving MONEY not God. YOU put a high value on money. You should think about that. Not everyone that believes in tithing are wrong or money grubbers or are serving money. Like you did. I am glad that you responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and repented and changed.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:57 am
It seems “Help Me Understand” just doesn’t understand, so there is no use in arguing with him. They are overly passionate about this topic and angrily defending their stance, which usually means a connection to one of these prosperity organizations/churches and a willingness to defend them to the end. I have found long ago that some people buy into a belief that only God can change.
I got love for you HMU, just not the time to try and change your mind about something that you believe very strongly in. I wish you all the best.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:15 am
“They are overly passionate about this topic and angrily defending their stance, which usually means a connection to one of these prosperity organizations/churches and a willingness to defend them to the end.”
Dont pull this BS with me. So easy to cut and run when a person makes a good point. Maybe the problem is some “former” prosperity gospel believers were in LOVE with money and the Holy Spirit convicted them of their sin. Could that not be possible?
“I got love for you HMU, just not the time to try and change your mind about something that you believe very strongly in. I wish you all the best.”
I feel the love! I do!
I believe strongly in tithing I tithe 10% of my income every month and have for 13 years. I also give 6-8% above my tithe every year and have done that for the last 5 or 6 years. I do both out of a cheerful heart that I can help fund the kingdom of God. Do people abuse this teaching. They do abuse this teaching. Do people abuse the Grace teaching, they do abuse the grace teaching…I can list all kinds of stuff like that but i wont.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:35 am
So…show me how I pulled this out of context, then enlighten us to what it really means. Seriously, you sound like the Muslims I was witnessing to the other day that said the same thing about the Deity of Christ…they said I took scripture out of context, but when I read the scripture to them they didn’t have an alternate interpretation.
I never made either of these assertions…once again, quit putting words in my mouth.
Very nice…
Yes, I did think of that. The problem was with me because I believed what they taught. I had to repent from the false teachings of The City Church by loving the truth more than a lie - and leaving to a church that teaches the truth about money.
Nice…very nice. So your belief is correct because I was serving money - OR…I was serving money because I was taught incorrectly. What sounds more plausible??? How would we find out? I guess we could analyze my heart….or we could look at was actually taught at The City Church. Do you attend the City Church? Are you familiar with their teachings?
Seriously, you need to stop with the assumptions about me and keep it about the teachings we are discussing.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:36 am
I abuse the grace teaching all the time. Everyday. That’s what makes it grace.
Ok, this is so great. Really. Giving is good .
And how much really ought to remain a private thing. Money is power, and some will not have as much giving power as you, while others might have more. Jesus, as we remember, turned the whole money is power thing upside down when he praised the pitiful offering of a woman who was obviously living a life of poverty. That is a fascinating story in light of this conversation, btw. He did not address her lack of financial power, or failure to be a financial success, but rather the condition of her heart.
And I suppose, with hope and optimism, that we can at least agree that no matter if you tithe strictly 10 percent, or give in random bursts, that it is the condition of the invisible interior world that God has his eye on. Not how much power we can or cannot wield with our checkbooks.
It is great, truly, that you give so generously and consistently. My family and I attend a small and some what poor church these days. Every dollar we give is acutely felt in the church’s meager budget. The median annual income at our church is a mere $12,000 a year. The median age is 27y. (this explains the low income!)
We are a church with small pockets, but big hearts. We give out Trader Joe groceries every week, donated goods to our community that we freely share at 1:15 to whomever would come and receive. No strings attached.
We took up an offering last month to buy socks for our “love child” church plant to Portland’s invisible and powerless homeless people. $57 dollars came in for that, and with it we were able to buy over 100 pairs of new socks to keep the feet of those who live outside healthy and strong.
It’s not much power in the way of financial power. But it is definitely a lot in the currency of kindness. And that, I believe, is the point.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:57 am
I am not putting words in your mouth. I asked a question. Does God want me to be poor?
“I was serving money because I was taught incorrectly. What sounds more plausible???”
Or it was your fault for not know the bible for yourself. We should search the scriptures ourselves to find out what is being taught is true.
I do not attend the city church and yes I know their teachings.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:04 am
“I abuse the grace teaching all the time. Everyday. That’s what makes it grace.”
Depends what in your mind is the true biblical teaching of grace is. Then again that is sore spot to me. I think the teaching of grace is more abused then prosperity.
Now, to the rest of your post:
I loved it! My comment on the % i give in no way was to be boasting and if that was please forgive me. I do agree God looks at the heart. I can tithe 10% yet in my heart if I am all mad and angry because I have to give. I believe that gives no pleassure to Him at all.
Thanks for such a great post!
May 16th, 2008 at 10:07 am
I don’t know about God. But after reading your last 20 comments, I’ve decided I want you to be poor.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Perhaps, it is up to each of us to decide where our riches reside.
The wise man, builds on the Rock …
May 16th, 2008 at 10:52 am
I couldn’t have given a better example of why I don’t believe in the “Prosperity Gospel” or in strict, meticulous tithing of 10% to the local arm of the institutionalized church.
Do you see the fallacies in your argument? Do you see the way that you automatically revert the blame back to the person who disagrees with you, saying that the reason they don’t understand your argument is their problem, not yours? Do you see how zealously you defend your precious gospel in the face of criticism without considering the arguments of others? Do you see the passive aggressive nature of your responses, how you’ve reverted from arguing a point to aggressive ad hominem’s to defend your dear gospel of prosperity?
This is the fruit of your gospel. This is what we’ve already rejected.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Once again, you don’t understand what I write. I said I took responsibility and left once I learned the real gospel of Jesus Christ. The bottom line, I followed a false gospel, and they still teach it. Shame on them, and praise God He led me out.
I don’t think it is His main goal, and I don’t think He really cares. God wants us to be Holy. I think the best scripture to show us how God views riches is in Revelation:
This is how Jesus deals with the church that has money:
Here is how Jesus deals with the poor church:
Jesus didn’t care who was rich and who was poor. Actually those who you would call poor, Jesus called rich, and those who we would say are rich, Jesus called “wreched, miserable and poor”. The scary thing is they thought they were prospering in all things (sound familiar)? Remember, He was talking to a church.
I do not see any room here that God’s purpose for us in this life is “your best life now”. If we are poor, He does not promise to take us out of poverty, He told that church it would get worse. He desires we be faithful unto death regardless of being rich or poor, in prison or out of prison, sick or healthy. We are to love the Lord no matter what our circumstances are and to not covet any other circumstances.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:05 am
YES!
May 16th, 2008 at 11:24 am
God wants you to be His.
——-
But cat’s answer is pretty good, too.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Why?
May 16th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
I thought you had love for me! Now I’m hurt…
May 16th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
“Once again, you don’t understand what I write.”
Oh I understand, I dont agree with you.
“I don’t think it is His main goal, and I don’t think He really cares. God wants us to be Holy.”
You dont think God really cares about wealth or poverty? If He doesnt care why do you? And why should I care? Why are we talking then?
“He desires we be faithful unto death regardless of being rich or poor, in prison or out of prison, sick or healthy. We are to love the Lord no matter what our circumstances are and to not covet any other circumstances.”
This I agree with 100%.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Because you said this in an earlier post…
I think that is a false hope for Christians. That’s why we are still talking.
Its funny, you really haven’t used any biblical support for your view and have not dealt with the scriptures I have used…just a thought.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Help Me Understand, help me understand.
Would you be willing to find me some examples of New Testament Christians whose lives would back up the teachings of the Prosperity Doctrine?
Maybe you could find an example of someone who was real good with tithing and giving and God blessed them for it and gave them more (exceedingly, abundently, and pouring out all over).
May 16th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
The bible is full ############# that talk about blessing, abundance, prosperity, prosperous, fruitfulness, goodness, generosity, generous, giving, sowing, bountiful, wealth, riches etc.
I believe God wants me to tithe so that we can see ########## of Jesus Christ spread through out the world.
Regarding your comment about scriptures:
It depends on how you want to interrupt the scriptures and depending what commentary, bible, theological schooling or books we read.
Rev 3:17-18
17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.
What about a rich person that believes and knows that with Christ he is lost, miserable, poor, blind and naked. How can you lump everyone into the same basket as a person this scripture is talking about. A person who is rich and doesnt realize that he has nothing and the the true riches is found in a relationship with Jesus Christ.
18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see.
My goodness He is speaking to a church that is so wealthy and so caught up in its wealth that He wants them to realize that they needed to foc