We get emails, lots and lots of emails:
I just came across your blog, and find it fascinating. As a former member of the City Church and Capital Christian Center, and a frequent visitor to CBC I had to send you these clips.
Meet "Pastor" Krist Wilde, the youth pastor at Capital Christian Center in Boise (Son of Senior Pastor Ken Wilde). He is the self-proclaimed best friend/cousin of Judah. He has spent his adult life trying to duplicate the life and ministry of JS. In fact, in the first few minutes of the clip from April 2008, he mentions his jealousy of the fact that he is stuck preaching while Judah is attending this year's Master's Tournament watching Tiger Woods. (2:50 in the clip)
http://www.capitalchristian.com/Resources/MediaViewer.aspx?id=74&st=1
Krist's messages are marked by:
Large words he looks up in the thesaurus and uses in incorrect contextsLots of the same marriage/sex references Judah uses
The same wardrobe stylings and flat-ironed hair from the Judah playbook
Same long winded sermons filled with lots of fluff and no substance
You combine the lack of sincerity with the desperate attempt to appear cool, and frankly, I felt a little embarrassed for the guy.
Yeah I’ve seen him preach once or twice. Aside from the indiscreet showmanship in vocabulary, he talks and gesticulates just like JS.
I think JS is a sort of role model for MFI youth pastors. They all want to be like him.
Did Christian Soriano get his look from Judah, or was it the other way around?!?
Maybe I’m losing my critical edge, or I am “healing from my bitterness,” but I have nothing but good things to say about Krist Wilde.
Sure, he is in the City/MFI milieu and a disciple of the JudahChrist messiahship, but in my brief interaction with this individual I found him to demonstrate relational qualities that I never found in JS. Despite being a member of JS’s youth group, I felt closer to Krist and deeply intrigued by his desire to learn and his willingness to converse with young people that were not even in his youth group. No one ever really got to have a real conversation with Judah, so talking with Krist was a eye-opening experience (I realized that youth pastors are actually human, not divine).
Granted, he does use a few words out of context, but he actually uses quite a lot of learned speech properly (something Judah probably never will achieve). But, he is a learner and a kind man, and that is rare in the kingdom of JudahChrist.
Having said those nice things, let me poke fun at Judah a bit more. I always loved it when he said ‘irregardless,’ which is a lovely double negative. And, both he and Wes, one of his disciples, pronounced ‘acclimated’ like ‘akk-climate-ted.’
This comment will reveal how old I really am, but I remember in ACTION night (do they still do that? I always thought it was a good concept) holding little, painfully shy 2 year old Judah on my lap and praying for him.
I suppose my prayers were answered in ways I never expected!
Glad you got to see that side of Krist. But was that in his home church or was he visiting yours? What I remember most is he was really bad at answering his phone, returning calls, and keeping appointments, which doesnt give a youth pastor a good rep. Also, I think the Wilde’s did all their shopping in Seattle and DC so the metrosexual look he sported was a little over the top in Boise. Most people with money here don’t flaunt it. Except, of course, at Capital
ChristianBusiness Center.I do agree that he seemed to love to study the word and I often wondered if he’d be better off studying Bible at an accredited Christian college and then later becoming a professor somewhere if that was what he wanted. But who knew what he really wanted. He was
stuffedsmashed into a suit in order to grow a youth group that began to dwindle once his parents ousted the dynamic Jonathan Owens so Krist could take his place. JO was then placed in another position till heleftcould find another job with someone who respected him.They say now he’s being groomed to take his dad’s place even though he’s never worked under any other ministry outside of CCC to learn to become a responsible and valuable employee. But if daddy owns the business, who needs to learn the work ethic, right? Ken and Wendell need to study what CEOs of a multimillion dollar companies do with their offspring. Business saavy leaders understand the VALUE of shipping your heirs off to someone who won’t coddle them. Then when junior is ready and OPTS to return, you’ve done the business a huge favor. But alas, like Judah, Krist has only ‘worked for’ his dad. And believe me, the result has been a double standard that’s pretty hard to ignore. At least that’s what I hear from a long list of former staffers.
But Krist is a NICE guy, have to agree with you there. Somehow I can’t help but view him as a
victimproduct of a cult-like society trapped at the mercy of his own inability to thrive without his father’s help.Wow well said ex -slave! You nailed it.
So what price is a $400,000 house, (yes thats right!)
new cars & designer clothes worth if you
don’t have freedom to live your life as you want to?
He’s a slave too –but the ones I feel sorry for are the kids forced to listen to the stiff delivery. They go crazy there weekly unless they submit to the forced delivery. He is sweet you’re right but you haven’t witnessed the worship fest
they have there —its wierd to worship your own family members isn’t it?!!
Maybe the ministry doesn’t fit any better than the suit does–
-man that look uncomfortable!
Too bad these kids can’t stand up to their fathers.
I’m sorry you have to resort to such personal attacks. My brother and cousin are excellent communicators and two of the most humble men I know. Instead of addressing the many falsehoods on this ridiculous blog, let me just ask you to be careful when swinging below the belt. I understand if you personally don’t connect, relate, like, etc Krist or Judah. Here’s a shocker…that’s ok!!! But seriously, the personal attacks and the defamation of someone’s character is unnecessary…and frankly, unacceptable.
Please be cautious with your words and remember these men mean something to myself and others. I don’t want to have to talk bad about your mom…but you may be asking for it.
thx
Go right ahead. Clearly, you don’t know my family very well.
But look, I get that you don’t like us speaking negatively about your family. That’s understandable. Here’s my problem, your family is in a position of leadership, and yet, there is no real forum for anyone to question them. And that’s why we get emails like we do, and why I end up posting them on this blog. It would bode well for your family and church to set up a system which allowed members to register complaints against them, or else you’re just going to end up getting more blogs like this.
That said Tracy, defending your brother is what any good sister would do. So I take your criticism.
Tracy…do you want a second try at this comment? Maybe go with:
My brother and cousin are excellent communicators and two of the most interesting men I know.
or
My brother and cousin are excellent communicators and two of the most passionate men I know.
or
My brother and cousin are excellent communicators and two of the most fashionable men I know.
“That’s understandable. Here’s my problem, your family is in a position of leadership, and yet, there is no real forum for anyone to question them.”
Are you a memeber of either church?
“why we get emails like we do, and why I end up posting them on this blog.”
Could some of the emails you get be from people who are just wolves in sheep clothing?
“It would bode well for your family and church to set up a system which allowed members to register complaints against them,”
Why would you do this?
[Comment ID #32952 Will Be Quoted Here]
Hi Tracy,
If anyone would speak up publically for your brother and cousin it would be you, which is commendable. I remember you to have a gift of being straight forward and not given to clandestine activity.
I can imagine that it’s beyond hard to see anything negative written about someone you love. But I have to agree with Catalyst when he says there isn’t, or in my case, wasn’t, a forum to speak up at your church. Asking questions was often considered a signal to leadership that a person had a problem with authority. If you guys want to live like that, then that’s ok for you I guess. But if there had been an atmosphere of openess and discussion perhaps the people who have left and now speak out wouldn’t be doing so. In fact, some of them may have never left in the first place.
The truth is people wouldn’t be speaking out if there wasn’t something valid to speak out about.
But to clarify, I’d like to distinguish that speaking out about having a problem with the lifestyles of leaders and with their leadership style is different than poking fun at how a person looks or speaks. Both seem to be going on here and I can see why it’s hurtful to you.
But, instead of dismissing the whole thing as evil, would it be acceptable to get beyond the immature stuff that you are seeing here and perhaps take a look at some of the more valid grievances people are sharing? It could be a tool to take stalk of what could be tweaked to make your church a better place for everyone and not just what’s best for the leadership.
Obviously, you’re not — or at least you’ve never questioned the leadership. Otherwise you wouldn’t even ask this question. The statement comes from experience.
If you had read the emails (posts), you would see that they are from people who were in the system — not outsiders seeking to devour.
Um, duh. Are you asking this for real?
“Um, duh. Are you asking this for real?”
Ya..
I don’t think what I said was defamation of character. I was just stating the obvious. It would be defamation if it weren’t true.
Tracy
So glad to see you’ve arrived and welcome to the forum where people
actually have freedom promised by the Constituition of the United States.
We were wondering if you were reading all along and now the lid is off.
Don’t you think its a shame that people have to resort to sorting their feelings out,
venting from the spiritual abuse suffered at the hands of their pastors in the form of the internet? If there could have been any honesty -true fellowship than you wouldn’t have to read the truth of people’s feelings here on this blog. Sad isn’t it.
Church doesn’t have to be painful. What will it take to get your families attention next? This isn’t a theocracy and people don’t like being ruled by
elitist leaders especially in the pulpit.
We feel sorry for you actually –but open your eyes. You and your kin have caused a lot pain to alot of people by the way you “do church.”
Don’t the numbers leaving through the revolving door ever mean anything to you. We don’t have all the answers but church does not have to be like this and whether you know it or not–prada purses or not you are also a victim.
What is your price for freedom? Maybe God is speaking to you right now through this blog if you will listen. Have you been praying about or for freedom to live your life lately?
We always said the only thing that will get your famiies attention is when your
church credit card no longer works at the spa.
Hold on now for the water might get a little rough. Its not a bad idea to have a back up plan. Over and Out!
Free At Last! Free At Last!
Thank God Almighty I Am Free At Last!
[Comment ID #33016 Will Be Quoted Here]
How can you prove that it is not defamation of character?
What is your price for freedom? Maybe God is speaking to you right now through this blog if you will listen. Have you been praying about or for freedom to live your life lately?”
Freedom in her life? Are you saying that their church is a cult and that her parents are cult leaders? What do you mean by this?
[Comment ID #33024 Will Be Quoted Here]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_of_character
Sorry trying to understand –only she can ask or respond to those questions.
Define the word cult as no other word in the English language has so many definitions. If you mean cult like tendancies- we say yes!
If you mean cult like adoration of the pastor leader-we definately say yes!!
It was expected for you to respond.
If you mean controlling measures from the pulpit and culture there –
we mean yes! If you mean that Tracy would have to defy her mother and
father’s wishes to say move–leave the compound-live abroad on her own
get a new job –”out there”–we say yes. At least that is one definition of the word freedom. Free to do and live as you choose.
When interviewed the polygamous members of Jeff Warren’s ‘ extremely close
group’ did not feel they were associated with a cult. “Of course we have freedom” they exclaimed loudly. You decide.
HMFMB wroted:
So you are suggesting that someone is “guilty until proven innocent”?
Agreed. These churches provide no outlet for anyone who disagrees with them. I have lost best friends and good relationships with leaders, even seen family members split up over the fact that I/we questioned the “cult” like atmosphere of these churches. It’s always done in the most innocent of ways at first. Usually starts with a little concern over the way Doug Lasit or Judah Smith treated a kid that fell morally. We ask if they should have just pushed him/her out of the youth group without even trying to help them recover from their sin. Then you get semi-black balled for raising the issue. You start to get less invites to events. They send you less emails. When you see them at church you only get a half smile and a head nod. As you try to figure out what’s going on and connect with them they just ignore you. Before you know it they stop returning your phone calls and our to busy to meet with you. Then after a few months you are completely shut out. It’s a subtle downward spiral that occurs to those who are not on their side, who do not buy into their iron first rule, and who disagree with what they say you should do. Go ahead and defend such evil and un-Christ like behavior all you want, but the reality is that most people here on this blog live in the real world. People like DL and JS live in a fantasy world where they are surrounded by yes men who will tell them how great they are on a constant basis and stroke there ego to know end so that they too can be apart of the “cool” club. Well its gross, sickening, and downright evil. And I don’t care what anyone says, I’m glad they get called out for it. Even if it is sometime hurtful.
“prada purses or not you are also a victim”
i think this is suppose to allude to me owning a prada?!?! not quite sure but..never have,oh wait,except for the fake one i bought in chinatown. does that count?!?! the strap fell off in a week, but it was a cute little bag while it lasted.
[Comment ID #33043 Will Be Quoted Here]
or how about the people you grow up with in church…your closest and most trusted friends. one day they leave the church mad. they give no reason just leave saying horrible things about you as they slam the door in your face. you leave voice messages, emails, send letters…and they refuse to speak to you. then you see them at target or the mall and you make quick eye contact only for them to pretend they didn’t see you and go the other direction. you shout their name, giving them the benefit of the doubt, and they slowly turn to you only to glare at you with no life in their eyes. still…your totally in the dark about why they hate you.
that’s the other side ex-city.. but i’m sorry you’ve ever felt isolated..i know how that feels just from the opposite side.
bless you.
[Comment ID #33006 Will Be Quoted Here]
Hi Nancy!!
How are you? How have you been? I think we should go to coffee sometime and catch up. I understand you love being at Calvary, that’s awesome. One of my best friends goes there…you may know her. Anyway, I’ve never known why you left Capital..I don’t think anyone does. I understand my parents and others repeatably tried to get hold of you but to no avail. You had the opportunity to say what was on your heart but declined to do so. That’s ok, but I think we should get together so we could talk. You were always someone special to me…especially cause of the music connection.
I’m not much of a blogger so I won’t find myself here anymore but please email me so we can connect. I can tell you all about my interesting year and show you pictures of my new niece and you can fill me in on your music happenings and tell me how Ashley is. I haven’t seen her in ages.
xoxo, tracy
Tracy Wilde said:
Tracy, since you opened the subject up, perhaps I should clarify. You may not read this but at least I can paint a truer picture of what took place at the end of my 20 years at Capital. I think your mom called me once after Stan and your dad had lunch after we left, so I don’t think repeatedly is quite accurate. He had asked Stan that day why I left and Stan said because there was never a two-way street type thing going on and that I just didn’t want to live like that anymore. So maybe your mom wanted to try to make up for years of distance between us by calling me out of obligation or something.
I know in your Christian Culture, the way I left was not typical. The reason I didn’t subject myself to the exit meeting interview to hear that I should stay 6 months before I go is because I was already gone and didn’t feel the need to do so. I guess too I felt I had shared enough of my heart with your folks through the letters or notes I’d writen in the earlier years and I was all shared out. I remember you asking me one day why I wrote notes to your folks and got the sense you thought it was weird. It WAS really weird. But I am into writing and it was my pathetic way of trying to connect with them. We all had built up too much of a reverence for your parents. Partly our fault, but it was also generated from over emphasis of the pastor role in your type of church in my opinion. Too much honor given and too much honor allowed to be given. Anyway, not responding at the end was the right thing to do in my personal circumstances. I felt that my silence this time around could make more of a statement. After all, not responding to other people’s calls is something your folks are known for so I thought they’d understand. I wont even go into the fact that when I had found another job and wanted to talk to your mom and give my 2-weeks notice (since she was the administrator at the time) she wouldn’t return my calls or emails nor would she respond to her secretary about it. I had wanted to give them a two-weeks notice but finally had to do it through an email. But that’s another subject.
Another reason I didn’t feel I should subject myself to being in a closed room with your folks is because of my need to get out from under the authoritarian intimidation that they exude. It wasn’t healthy for me and I was the one who allowed that weird dynamic over the years. I had finally come to terms with the fact that I was no longer in a place of obligation to them especially since I no longer employed there. Their lack of interest in my families’ life had become increasingly apparent and once I faced the truth about that, I was completely disenchanted with being there.
Now that I am healthier I realize that we place way too much expectation on the leadership of the church and the church itself. And that too is another subject. But in defense of all of us who expected too much, we were taught to expect something that could never truly be given to us. For one thing, we took vows in church between the leaders and the congregation like a marriage ceremony. Why wouldn’t there be an undercurrent of expectation if leadership was making husband-like promises to those who joined the church?? Now THAT was weird! So I’m not the ONLY weird one. I guess in that way there was a two-way street;-)
Maybe someday you and I could go to coffee, but I have a sneaking suspicion you may have been trying to make a point in your post rather than truly wanting to meet with me. I understand that and no harm done. I’m not sure what good it would do now because it would just cause who knows what. We could try it, if you and I both feel right about it when the time comes. We’d have to see. I’ve probably already told you more than you’d like to know. And I don’t plan on ever returning to Capital. I’m pretty much churched out to tell you the truth. I do like Calvary’s style and simplicity but it’s just church and that’s been a very healthy thing.
Wow Nancy,
It is amazing how a family can acquire and abuse so much power over individuals and families. I attended the City Church, and it is basically the same institution set up over there. Amazing how the Bible clearly warns about such people…but it took me such a long time to “get it”.
I’m shocked Tracy even posted here…but good for her.
Tracey Wilde wrote:
If she was so “special to you”, Tracey, how come you never tried to contact her yourself?
So, you breeze in for a few messages, dump your load and then exit before she replies? You really don’t want to hear what she feels, do you – after all, clearly you are insulating yourself from whatever she has to say …
Why don’t YOU email her, or call her?
Oh, never mind Tracey – your reply just goes to prove Nancy’s point. I’m not at all surprised she gave up on your church since clearly authoritarianism (a caste system), phoniness and superficiality abounds there …
Sam
Thanks Nancy for your openness. I’m sorry if you felt like I was trying to “make a point” on this blog. I wasn’t, I know my heart was in the right place but perhaps it wasn’t the right outlet. I just assumed since everyone is so open on this thing…I could be too. My mistake. In respecting you and the other’s on this blog, I would rather email you directly (but I don’t have your email and I possibly assumed you had mine since mine hasn’t changed…there you go Sam). Apparently I “assume” too much. I think there’s a way to know someone’s email on this thing but I’m a blog virgin so I was hoping you would help initiate in that.
But in case I never hear from you again, let me at least say I’m sorry. I can’t say this for anyone but myself, so it may not even mean anything to you.
Maybe even in regards to something you said above: ” I remember you asking me one day why I wrote notes to your folks and got the sense you thought it was weird” I apologize for making you feel weird..I honestly never did think it was weird. I just may have been being stupid. It was common at that age…and probably still is. But whatever the reason knowing or unknowing, please forgive me.
I’ve gone through a lot this year and, ironically, my heart is more open towards people…especially people who have been hurt. If I hurt you in any way, I sincerely apologize. I’m sure at some point I could have said or done something to offend you..I know its a shocker.
[Comment ID #33062 Will Be Quoted Here]
Now there’s a way to respond.
I have no idea who you are Tracy so I am an objective third party. And I applaud you for coming on here and speaking your mind. It’s very respectable. Whereas the “others” in your family try to ignore the fact that this beast exists, its good to see someone has some guts to talk about things out in the open and not coward behind the pulpit.
I have lived inside churches like Capital Christian and the City Church before (went to CBC for 5 years and worked as a slave for that place), so I know exactly they kind of disappointment caused by leaders like the Wilde’s and Smith’s. It’s not your fault you are in that family. However, it is your fault if you can’t acknowledge that they run their churches very poorly. The way they’ve treated people, ruled with an iron fist and ignored the truths of the Gospel is quite sad. This is not a group of 10 or 20 angry dissenters who just love to complain (although those people are on here). This is a group of educated, hard working, Christians who have had their eyes opened by establishments that try to manipulate and control their lives by playing on their innocence in loving Christ. And the truth is most of us have lived on that side before. I know, I used to be a youth pastor and preach that same garbage all the time. I wish I could go back and find every kid I preached to and apologize for being so wrong. It’s been a long process but God has completely transformed my heart with a new understanding about what it means to be a Christian, biggest of all is the realization that there are no superstars in the Kingdom of God. Judah is no better then the janitor who sweeps the pulpit that he just spoke at. Somewhere along the way it appears that they lost that notion and have put money, notoriety, and power above representing Christ. Being fake, phony, judgemental, and arrogant will eventually cause leaders like these to fall. It’s just a matter of time.
So going out to coffee, patting someone on the back, and telling them your sorry is not going to fix the damage that’s been done. If you or anyone else really wants to change to make up for the way people like Nancy were treated there has to be a heart change, not just an image change.
Does the church have a membership list, wherein her address and telephone number might have been looked up? Sorry Tracey, but I think “I didn’t have your email address” is pretty lame …
Sam
Hi Tracy,
I wasn’t necessarily offended if you WERE trying to make a point, but could have misread from the ultra chipper tone of your post. Most everyone here is trying to make a point in one way or another. That’s why clarifying is always good which a best friend of mine is always saying. Seriously, I thought your whole last post was tongue-in-cheek reaction to my previous post to you and you were publically calling me out for not leaving the church in what you guys consider the proper way etc.
That’s why I answered with a detailed explanation. I also understand that in your world, what seemed like a clandestine departure to everyone there, would be viewed as an act of an American right of freedom in mine. But remember, if there had been a meaningful two-way street relationship I would have owed your folks the explanation then. By relationship I don’t mean that we needed to be best friends with your folks or even hang out. I mean that because they were asking (not really asking but demanding) so much time from my husband and increasingly not satisfied with what he was giving, they could at least genuinely care for our well being more than they did. We were all giving up our own dreams to help promote your dad and one day we each woke up realizing God was no longer asking us to do that. It raises alot of questions about what we were taught and what our own inner motives were. I think God wanted our hearts back because somehow we shifted our allegience from Him to them. Again, partly our fault, but partly because of how things are set up there. Back to my departure, my audacious silence was my yelling to the rooftops (since no one else was really listening) that there simply was not a relationship. Like I said before, since my communications didn’t work up until then perhaps a different approach was necessary.
But anyway, thank you for the gracious apology and I genuinely accept. Even though I’m not sure you are the one to be apologizing I appreciate the sincerity that’s coming across in your reaching. Ben told us about your hardship in this last year and we were truly saddened by it. I did send you a short little note on myspace letting you know you were in our prayers but not sure if you got that so let me reiterate our condolences for your loss. I’m sure you are still healing from that and hopefully you can take all the time you need to do so.
I think the girls in the office may still have my email address if you are so inclined to email, but I completely understand if you are not. If we continue to write each other publically it may garner reality show attention. hmmmm, now that’s a concept!
Loved your ‘blog virgin’ descriptive by the way – lol
[Comment ID #33057 Will Be Quoted Here]
Hi Craig,
There ARE amazing similarities from the stories that come from all the churches mentioned here on this blog. From City Bible, City Church, Capital, Doug Cotton’s churches, Rhema church — those are the ones that come to mind — all seem to have a particular way of dealing with those who ask questions of the leadership. Like Ex-City Slave’s description of the slow death of no longer being acceptable which resembles the shunning the ex-mormon polygamy cult people were talking about.
Tracy is indeed the first who has shown any sign of reaching across the great divide. At least that I’ve seen. I haven’t read every post on this blog though so there may have been others. I don’t doubt her sincerity but I wonder if she’ll be able to truthfully look at what has gone askew in her world without feeling disloyal and getting a huge amount of flack for it. If we suffered from some guilt of disloyalty how much more a family member.
Sam said:
To stay insulated or uninsulated, that is the question.
Maybe that should/ve been: To insulate or not to insulate that is the question.
Hello CBC Blog and anyone who may read this,
Since I’ve written my lengthly descriptives to Tracy on this blog I’m suffering from writer’s remorse. I guess I haven’t completely lost my conscience since I dared to leave a church in an unacceptable way.
This morning, I’ve thought about emailing the blog moderaters to remove this thread from the blog or at least removing some of what I wrote. There are a few reasons for that.
I’m wondering if I’ve said too much — exposing too many details of somone’s less than stellar behavior to get my point across and at what expense. I wince now knowing I could be inflicting pain upon those who haven’t wanted to see the pain they have inflicted on so many people over the years because they aren’t really thinking about all of us. How they’ve been taught and what they are teaching certainly shields them from how their style of leadership is doing more harm than they realize.
I’m worried about my family because of what I’ve said–especially my son who still attends the church and is close friends with the senior pastor family. I’m torn between his needing to know how important it is not to remain silent when you believe change needs to take place and wanting to be quiet out of respect for his friendships. I’m worried that my words could hinder my husband’s job security. Certainly if he worked for an MFI church and his wife blogged about why they left a church, he’d be removed immediately or if not, then he’d die the slow death. . . Thankfully he works for an intuitive and discerning senior pastor, but you have to admit, the Christian Culture universal expects us all to stay quiet about certain things pretty much across the board. If we do speak up we are deemed unforgiving and still have a root of bitterness. Side note: Could it be that the healing process of forgiving takes years and not just months? And wouldn’t talking about it help the process rather than hinder it?
As I sit here with my box of kleenex wondering what I’ve done and not knowing what to do about it, it occurrs to me that whoever reads this should at least realize the dilemma a person faces when choosing to speak out in order to help bring change.
I truly believe that the Lord is shifting things in the way we do church today. Could it be that HE is unhappy with the celebrity-driven worship-fest kingdom-building machine that much of the church has become? If He IS unhappy with it then He must be smiling upon the churches like Pam Hogeweide attends that stay simple and reach out daily to those in need.
If I remain hush-hush about the problems that I know affect other people, especially if those I love could be next in line for the same bad treatment, wouldn’t I have to bear THAT on my conscience just as much as the weight of my words hang heavy upon me now? Whether I speak out or don’t speak out I am inflicting pain.
My friend emailed me yesterday when he saw the developing conversation going on in this particular thread. I hope he doesn’t mind if I quote him here since what he said says sings out how important it is to be accessible to others whether we are leaders or not:
“I’m amazed how little Christian leaders know about the people they claim to love and care about … we talk about politicians and how out of touch they are with people with the privileged and insulated lives they lead … pastors, esp. mega-church pastors, are just as out of touch, perhaps more. I don’t get it … shepherds should shepherd – that means going after the lost sheep – it means going into the ditch by the side of the road, getting dirty, and helping the person who has been beaten and robbed … guess that means they’re shepherds in name only … ”
If there is any hope for us now it’s getting back to the simple faith in Jesus we all began with. Doing things the way he did, one on one, one by one, two by two, the daily connections each of us encounter. Church should just be a place to refuel and get back out there to our world who needs one touch of love at a time. We can only do the best we can and try to remain undriven. Somehow if we place everything in Jesus hands, He will give us the ability to help meet the needs of those who are in our lives for whatever reason. But it’s probably going to happen one conversation at a time with love actions one step at a time. Somehow Jesus gets lost in the big mega hype when He really seems to be all about eye contact and listening and waiting on us to remember He’s present.
Nancy,
I admire and respect what you have been saying. I think it is healthy to get all of that stuff out in the open. I don’t know you personally or your entire situation but I can tell you that sitting in silence and not talking about it will only make you bitter.
I attended BT from my early childhood through young adulthood. I left BT very bitter from hurt and pain that was inflicted on me and instead of talking about it to anyone I remained for years unable to even think of wanting to attend church or have anything to do with God.
I wish now that I had spoken up and wish that there was a venue like this for sharing experiences and opinions.
It is very frustrating to see that so many people continue to get hurt by the same groups of people and no one accepts responsibility for that.
I am thankful that I am free now from all of the cultish behaviors of BT-CBC and it’s affiliates.
I can’t help but believe that the Lord does not approve and must be saddened by these churches and they will be held accountable in the end for those people “Lost” because of their behaviors.
Reading this interaction between Nancy and Tracy reminds me of my attempts to clarify communications I have had with members of Churches like CBC. We step out in honesty and then we cringe at the fact that we may be inflicting pain or hurt upon another member of the body of Christ. Over the years I have stepped over the ‘communication’ line a few times in my passion and attempt to help those in leadership understand – always a failed attempt. The finger was always pointed back at me. At one church, those of us who spoke up to try to help the leadership change, were labeled the ‘cancer’ of the church. Once we all left, I remember hearing the pastor’s wife say, “things are so much better, the cancer has left the body”. What more pain can be inflicted!?
What I have come to believe is that we need to be so connected to the Father, that we try to only speak out when the Father tells us to. Although we may not be heard or our attempt may actually hurt us all over again, we are ‘sacrificial lambs’ as change needs to come to the body of Christ.
Nancy, your post, has helped me not feel alone. Your pain and your heart were very clear and although I don’t know all of the circumstances you faced, my husband and I feel very similar. We are still trying to find a church home and to ‘unlearn’ all the unhealthness that surrounded us.
May God bless you as you heal and work through. And, please don’t dismiss Tracy and her attempt to connect. Miracles do happen in relaitonships within the Body of Christ. And God does change the pain to a sincere love for all those involved.
Comfort and peace as you and your family continue…
Nancy,
To have said nothing, would be unloving. I’m also reminded of something I learned in counseling – where there is much anger and hurt, there is much love. If you were indifferent, it would mean you did not care. I believe you love those people, care deeply, and all the more so because your son is there.
“There is a voice of one crying in the wilderness” … could it be that God has allowed you to be so, that they might hear and respond, in love and with repentence?
Trust it to the Lord’s hands – do it as unto the Lord – and remember that “all things work out for the good” … ;^)
Love your heart, sis!
‘Scrupe
To my great friend Nancy,
What courage -what clarification. It takes more courage and caring to come into to the light here and expose the darkness than all the sermons combined!
You have a team of people behind you who support what you are doing – who are reading this blog daily. It has been very healing and made us laugh when
absolutely nothing else could! We see we are not alone either.
We are called ‘ Survivors’ at our new church and amongst ourselves. Each time we dare to share something of our past from our last ‘fellowship’ they are astonished and amazed at what went on across town. In fact its hard for them to fathom so we come to places like this where we don’t have to explain the complete and total dysfunction that was our worship fest.
Though this has been painful to read and write we are so glad you did it
and representing us all from Capital Christian today for they are not just your feelings but thousands of others. Yes we ‘ve heard from people all over the valley –each one has a story to tell! And they stop and tell us in the post office -grocery store- coffee shop!
This last thread actually gives us hope for it is the closest thing we’ve ever ‘seen’ to a real conversation with insiders still there. You leave and they don’t call or ask why. You get told later what was said about you–’you were bit’
you were negative –you didn’t submit –you had your own vision. oh aw!
The word shunning quickly becomes part of your vocabulary rather quickly as people at the grocery avert their eyes, steer their carts away from you.
My first experience of it came right after leaving. I tried to talk to someone who had been my friend in a gift store. I tried once -maybe she didn’t hear me. Twice -maybe I wasn’t loud enough and the third time was met with an icy glare and a rush to get her children away from me. Suddenly I got it –she was one who called my Pastor’s wife daily and she she was shunning me. And it began! Instinctively you don’t leave these churches because you know this is what you’ll face when you leave and no one -but no one wants to talk to you.
They will stand there however and tell you how much they love or is it are
‘IN LOVE” with Pastor! Once your eyes are opened its enough to make you sick that you once sounded like ‘one of those.’ An ex-pastor we know calls it the Stepford Stare–and says Passtoor in a nauseating tone that we all recognize.
If there was a good way for you to leave Nancy no one has ever found it short of moving to Texas where they quickly sat on the front row just as they did here.
Be brave, be direct and be bold for we are praying for you! For whatever reason you are our voice right now! As I read in the message Bible today–
‘Come quickly to my aide Lord
Show my enemies You are on my side.’
Nothing is harder than being on the opposite side of those we once served
and cared for but with casualty after casualty we had to retreat and regroup somewhere else.
We are still Christians still believers but damaged in the battle. We relate to
Paul now–man what a loser he was!
I wonder how these pastors or families would feel if their daughters -sons or even husbands or wives stayed in a fellowship they left and were encouraged to do so causing great pain and strife to other family members.
My husband was asked ‘where is your wedding ring’ when he attended
after I left. I guess it was in hopes we were no longer together.
Ha! It took some time- but he got out.
So keep up the fight and clarify away. If they want to discuss it they know where to find us and its not on the blogasphere!
Nancy,
Thank you for sharing. I understand the your dilemma with sharing personal encounters with people you are still connected to. But the conversation between the two of you is a reminder for many of us that we really aren’t crazy.
Tracy,
You and I have never met and it sounds like you have had some personal tragedy, so I will try to be sensitive to that. But I’ll also try to help you understand what you’re dealing with when you come to a forum like this (which I appreciate and greatly respect).
Your over-the-top effort to appear cheerful appears insincere. I know you think its a demonstration of love, but it looks like total detachment from reality. The idea that you get really happy and start making jokes when people tell you they think your family is dangerous seems insincere. If it is sincere, thats kind of weird too. But really, I don’t know anyone outside of church that feels obligated to act happier the worse a problem is?
Also, when people have a problem with you, they don’t want to know you aren’t angry. Frankly, they might appreciate it if you were so they felt like they mattered to you. But ultimately, they want to be understood. That’s how you can love them, and it seems like you’re interested in understanding. Even if you don’t ultimately find agreement, they want to believe that they are important enough for you to have taken the time to actually understand why they feel the way they feel.
Many feel that the organizations that your family is involved with labels anyone who raises questions them as backbiters, murmurers, disrespectful, insubordinate, unforgiving, etc… That allows ya’ll to dismiss their concerns without considering their merit. While thats probably not true in every case, I know it is true in many. And it is impossible to explain how frustrating this is.
We didn’t leave City Church culture because we left Jesus, but because we finally found Him. And when we ask ourselves why He has been hidden from us for so long, we realize there were lots of well paid people distracting us.
Therefore, understanding the people in this forum will require time and a critical evaluation of people and things that you hold very dearly. That isn’t easy. .
Here are some of the questions I started asking that led me away from the City Church.
Why do pastors call each other “pastor so and so”?
Why do pastor’s refer to themselves in the third person by their title?
Why do pastor’s have a dress code that poor people could never comply with?
Why is there a dress code at all?
Why do your churches have pictures of the “important people” all over the church and church literature?
Why is everything about the church service rehearsed to create the greatest emotional response possible?
Was the Holy Spirit able to reach people before modern worship services were invented? If so, what is the purpose of all the production that is involved in worship today?
If Christ died so that we could have quality of life, why were those closest to Him jailed, beaten, tortured, and executed for loving Him?
If the greatest in the kingdom of heaven shall be the servant of all, why does it feel like pastors are Christian celebrities?
After considering these questions for a long time, I concluded that the church was organized in a way that exalted the church, its vision and its pastors, more than Jesus. I think thats a problem.
I realize you may not agree with the all the characterizations in these questions, but thats where I’m coming from. It may help you get inside our twisted heads a little bit.
Again, thanks for hanging out with us on here. Your presence is appreciated.
DOC
Thanks for the reassurances Early BTer, Tri4Christ, Survivor, ‘Scrupe’ and Doc – your words since I last posted are a comfort and help me not feel so alone too.
Some would question why there would still be pain after 3 years. Haven’t you moved on YET? Why are you thinking of them when they don’t even think about you (until they get wind of something said on a blog)?
First of all, it seems to be a common expectation in Christian Culture across the board that we have to “get over it” quickly. Is it since we are Christians that we think that we aren’t subject to the same processes of healing than the rest of the world? The common expectation is if you want to be healed of something the best way is to jump into church work and you’ll get better as you go.
I think those of us who left our former churches ARE moving on. Just because we talk about it doesn’t mean that we aren’t picking up the pieces of our faith and moving on. A lot of what we are discovering is that we had certain hungers and spiritual addictions that we need(ed) released from. If we aren’t jumping right back in to church serving, it’s because we don’t want to repeat anything unhealthy with motives other than it coming from grace and our gratitude for what Christ has done for us. In other words, serving out of pressure from the pulpit or from our own remaining sense of obligation is not the reason to help out.
Also, just because posts show up on a blog doesn’t mean that we think of our former church leaders 24/7. It’s just that, instead of cramming our experiences into the obligated and legalistic abiss of silence, we discuss amongst ourselves when something surfaces again. Because it will surface and continue to surface from time to time. Better to get it all up and out and dealt with than to surpress it in fear of being cursed by God. It’s been proven by the counseling world that issues suppressed always show themselves later.
This brings up yet another Christian expectation: When you have a problem with something, we aren’t supposed to talk about it to anyone but Jesus. There’s even an expression about only talking about a problem on our knees or something I thankfully can’t remember. Just because we are in discussion with each other doesn’t mean we aren’t praying about it too.
Are we “over it”? In some ways, yes and hopefully more every day. Is there forgiveness? Yes, but it’s not a one-time declaration in Jesus’ name; it’s a process. Is there healing? Yes, but it’s a journey of a multi-faceted healing. I know that sounds kind of complicated but it’s not overwhelming when you just take one day at a time and trust God with the timing of it.
We need to take as much time as we need before we put our hand to the plow, especially if that involves church work. Many of us are busy doing the work God’s given us outside the church. For some reason, that’s not shrouded with whatever comes with working inside the church. It’s straight forward and productive. Not slamming church work, just saying if our decision to to do something is surrounded by the murky confusion of leftover guilt and obligation, then perhaps it’s not for us to do it yet. When the Lord says we are ready, then whatever we do with our hands, we can do so in grace and not because of Christian expectation with a sense of obligation. Everyone will be better off because a healed and ready person is less apt to be surrounded by drama than one who is still trying to process and still has trigger reactions to past stuff.
With all that said, this is what we’ve come to in our discussions in our world here and it’s what we are finding best for us.
Think of the Christian life this way:
When we receive Jesus into our hearts and into our lives we need to have an effective spam filter to keep out all the nasty messages with multiple links to the religious do’s and don’ts as well as a myriad of other types of distraction. If everything we do is “surrounded by the murky confusion of leftover guilt and obligation” it’s like having a blog and spending all your time manually clicking away spam. You then have little time to blog and you lose heart because now your energy has been consumed with keeping the guilt at bay.
So when we share the Lord with others, why would they even want to live like we do when all we are doing is deleting spam?
Does anyone have a suggestion on what a good Christian spam filter would be? or in other words, what works for you?
Nancy, what an intriguing thought – a Christian spam filter! I’m not sure where you may be going with this, but I immediately thought of Eph 6 (the full armor of God) and Galatians 5 (fruit of the Spirit). Methinks I need to spend some time praying, meditating, ruminating, investigating, applying and then inculcating the principles (I like words that end in -ing!) into my life.
Again, thanks for the thoughtful question. I look forward to other responses too.
TO Our Dear Friend Nancy,
Your posts have illicited phone calls and general buzz –so that is a good thing.
This spam illustration is perfect as its what we are trying to do in our Christian Lives now free of the charismania lifestyle of living for ‘big meetings’ ‘big conferences’ and even ‘bigger offerings.’ Whew glad thats over and we’re getting down to the main thing.
When people look at us knowing how ‘intense’ we were before they somehow get worried or think we’ve lost our faith. No we’re just finding it again!
The Lord Himself that is.
We know even getting this close to the vortex has taken its toll on you but
just hold on because we are holding you up. Like a chapter from the book
‘Toxic Faith’ –all this ‘stuff’ is toxic to your faith. It takes time and alot of
de-toxing to get it off.
No wonder Paul said -this one thing I do -forgetting what is behind!
I still bet he learned from it though.
[Comment ID #33130 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well, these scriptures are the most obvious ones that come to mind–especially for those who have years of the Bible study behind them.
However, I really like the words ruminating and investigating. If we don’t think things through and investigate when we have a question then we let others do our thinking for us.
If my great friend, Survivor, didn’t have such an inquiring mind, we would have never found this blog and some of the books we’ve read since leaving Capital! Both the blog and books have saved us, not to mention the careful guidance of the Holy Spirit who is becoming more real to us than ever.
Nancy asks: “Does anyone have a suggestion on what a good Christian spam filter would be? or in other words, what works for you?”
Nancy, great metaphor!
I would like to submit that a Christian’s spam filter is learning to listen to his/her own spirit (fed by the Word and prayer).
This is important because even many “good things” have to be made clearly God’s will for us personally before we take up the load for ourselves. E.g., the Bible says that it is pure religion to visit the orphans and widows in their affliction. Does that mean that I am supposed to drop what I’m doing and spend every waking moment ministering at rest homes? I think not. I must follow the leading of the Spirit for my life because I cannot do everything – neither am I supposed to try.
Hi David,
So true about the Holy Spirit. It’s really a relief and exciting to discover that he/she isn’t asking us to give in to Christian peer pressure or wear “Saul’s Armor”. He/She (but don’t want to say ‘It’) leads us all separately with a customized template so to speak.
Unfortunately the reason that metaphor came to mind is because I’m on a learning curve having a blog now attached to my own website. Deleting spam seems to be taking up way too much time till I learn a bit more about Akismet and API keys and plug-ins.
It began to remind me of how this whole christian culture thing makes me feel. It’s not that I hate Christians, even if I do want to avoid many of them, it’s just that the stuff we do to each other is becoming progressively over the top. Not to always quote Survivor, but she comes up with so many great thoughts and the most recent is: When I became a Christian, I didn’t sign up for all of this. I thought I was asking Jesus into my heart to give me a better quality of life.
So my spam question has to do with how to ensure a good quality of life for those who receive Jesus but don’t want to have to deal with the annoying side of the culture.
My daughter’s boyfriend’s jeep has a sticker on it that says “God, save us from your people!”
Nancy Kelly wrote: Tracy is indeed the first who has shown any sign of reaching across the great divide.
Nancy, Fortunately, Tracy is not the only one. I have recently met with Ted Roberts, former sr pastor of the mega church East Hill Family Church (Gresham, OR). One of my articles confronted him (someone else informed him of it) and he posted a strong response which precipitated our meeting. More later.
Nancy, thanks so much for your sincere and honest sharing with tracy on this blog!
Tracy, thanks so much for coming to the blog; hope you continue to do so.
Suvivor Said:
You are so right! We just don’t want to live like that anymore. That’s one of the main reasons we left. Even if all the other past details weren’t the other reasons, our quality of life is reason enough to get off the ship. In the transition time afterwards, we’ve had to fight for our own faith but it’s been worth it.
Doc said:
exactly!
David wrote:
Good to know and I’ll be looking for that. I guess I COULD move beyond this thread and explore a bit!! I’ve had a case of tunnel vision in these last 5 days.
I’d be really surprised if Tracy returned. But, I was surprised when she came, so I guess we’ll see.
catalyst said: “It would bode well for your family and church to set up a system which allowed members to register complaints against them…â€
Help Me Understand asked: Why would you do this?
Help Me Understand, I think that if this thread did not answer your question for you very clearly, you should read it again. With all due respect, if it still does not answer your question for you, then I suggest that you visit your family physician: you might be a person “without a chest” (C.S. Lewis).
Nancy said: I’d be really surprised if Tracy returned. But, I was surprised when she came, so I guess we’ll see.
Well, it’s Wednesday now and she posted before Sunday. What happens is Sunday rolls around and everything suddenly pales in the light of what’s happening at the church. Once you are back in the fog, you can’t figure out why anything else would matter.
She probably regrets even posting here. She DID call it a ridiculous blog.
[Comment ID #33166 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well, since you find the need to direct this question and comment to me. What type of system do you suggest? What type of system do you use in the house church you attend?
Bloggers- First off i want to say how proud i am of all of you for finding your voice. I know you have all been shut up for a long time and releasing your different stories and opinions will help heal. My mother has just recently told me about the blog and since then i have pretty much filtered through everything she has written in the last three years. I am so proud of her especially when she started using her real name.
Growing up at CCC i can relate to you guys in so many ways. My method before my family left the church was hiding out in the childcare services. I could not listen to the sermons without wanting to stand up and question everything that came out of the pastors mouth. I have respect for my father who was working there at the time and could not bring myself to embarrass him like that, it was his lively hood and it had to be his decsion to make that choice and not forced by my voice. I was always the odd pk (pastors kid) the one that was not really that envolved, the one that lived in the real world, and the one that was looked down upon for it. Really i could care less of what anyone at CCC thinks of me (which i am sure they all think i am a sinner and going to hell because i dont go to church anymore) To be honest i am more spiritual now than i ever have been and it is MY spiritual journey and my choice. I am not into organized religions and to tell you the truth i don’t know if i ever will be again. This doesn’t mean i don’t have faith in God or spirituality but the idea of God has changed from someone elses views to my own. My whole vision of God has changed and its mine and it feels good to own it with everything i have NOT because i have to but because i want to. This is a new concept for me, to be honest its the first time in my life i have felt like i am walking my spiritual path and not someone elses.
Mom- No matter what happens because of this blog i will back you 100%! I love you and i am so proud that you have found your voice and yourself throught your path. Your an amazing woman and i am honored to call you mother. Thank you for showing me you can always be yourself no matter the case. I can’t wait to watch you keep growing. I love you.
Thanks again everyone… keep on keeping on!
Ashley
Help Me Understand, let’s keep first things first: did this thread, at least partially, answer your question: “Why would you do this?” re: having a complaint system…
[Comment ID #33171 Will Be Quoted Here]
Is there a need to a local church for the senior leadership to hear complaints about the church. Yes there is. Its obvious in the book of acts that a complaint came before the apsotles and they fixed it.
Acts 6:1-7
6:1 Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists murmured against the Hebrews because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution. 2 And the twelve summoned the body of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables. 3 Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this duty. 4 But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” 5 And what they said pleased the whole multitude, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Proch’orus, and Nica’nor, and Ti’mon, and Par’menas, and Nicola’us, a proselyte of Antioch. 6 These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands upon them. 7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.
RSV
Obviously they had a system for complaints. It is also obvious that they turned it over to a group of people to take care of the complaint.
Now back to my question for you:
What type of system do you suggest? What type of system do you use in the house church you attend?
9278
Haha! Excuse the 9278-
Ashley, thank you very much for sharing and supporting your Mom like you did; christian families need more daughters like you! many blessings to you…
Help Me Understand, The house church that we attend does not have a formal complaint protocol. I think that most would agree that Mt. 18:15-19 would be the right place to start…
[Comment ID #33179 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well now I am a little confused. You post to me:
[Comment ID #33166 Will Be Quoted Here]
But, you dont have one yourself. Now why do we need one again?
Matt 18:15-19
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
RSV
Using this passage of scripture as a basis to start a “complaint protocol” at a church, how would the process go?
I would assume we are talking about a person in the church that has a complaint against the leadership. Wether that be the senior pastor on down.
What would we want to see?
Wow, i am so proud of all of you on this blog for even thinking about speaking up! I dont know much about the other churches talked about on her expect for capital christian center and i avoid that place like the plague! First of all they silence you completely through intimidation and by threatening you with GOD! how horrible is that? Somehow people found their own courage and voice to come on here and I think that it is the best thing that could ever happen to that money driven group of churches. I started going to ccc when i was five years old till i was 17 and that was enough to almost ruin my relationship with God. They made me afraid of him, i thought everything i did was wrong, i even thought i prayed wrong. If you cant pray then how are you supposed to talk to God? When i first started going to the kid’s club Pastor Bob and Char were ahead of the whole thing. Bob was the best thing that could have happened to the kids club because he was real and down to earth. and do you know what happens at capitol when you are real and down to earth? You get offered a new position where you are silenced or you choose to leave the church. (which have the staff that leaves, ends up having to move out of state because they are so intimidated).
Which I understand why “Nancy” would have no desire to talk to Pastor Ken or any of the other Wilde family for that matter. They would just tell her she is going to hell in a hand basket. Do you know what I’ve seen Pastor Ken do that alot of people probably wont remember? Once he spent an ENTIRE sermon on how to “not be late to church” and not to skip out on church. To prove his point he went out to the entrance of the church with his microphone and a camera man to show to the ENTIRE church who was sitting out of church. Well my mom who never ever misses church was coming out of the bathroom and well it wasn’t good.
I’ve also seen him preach an awful lot about giving offering to the church. I know that alot of the money went to the remodel of the church, but where was it going the other 8 years? has no one noticed what the pastor’s family drives or even wears? Abercrombie and Fitch is out of the question because of its sinning nature but Banana Republic and gap were fine. So while my family is giving offering and i save up for a shirt at ross, they are buying tons of outfits at Banana republic. dont get me wrong i know how good they need to look to be a “great example” to the rest of the church.
Most people go to a church because they need help in someway and I know a lot of people that go dont have much money (I was one of them). So if the Pastor makes everyone wear suits and dresses and they look really nice, what about the people who have no money? It looks so intimidating, let me tell you. You know its really bad when you feel not good enough to fit in at a church, A place thats not only supposed to give you spiritual knowledge but also support from other christians.
So one thing i can talk about that others on here can’t is CCC Church Camp. wow i would have rather been at boot camp, at least they would give you bathroom breaks without asking questions. First of all we had to wake up at the butt crack of dawn to do Calistedics (exercises sorry sp?) before we ate breakfast, then we would eat, go to chapel (1-2 hours) do impossible games for and hour eat lunch then chapel again (2-3 hours) then some type of game, dinner and chapel that could be anywhere from 3 to 6 hours! Sometimes they wouldn’t let us out till midnight and we would have to wake up at 6 am. Seven showers had to be shared with at least 40 people! One year all the girls got lice!
As camp goes on people start figuring out how long the night chapel will be and make “bathroom breaks” thats great for them, but what about the people that really need to go? So they started putting Mr and Mrs. Wilde at the door so it would intimidate people not to leave, and it worked. Oh and if you are old enough to drive a car your not aloud to bring it to camp, you have to ride the bus up. I wonder why? maybe they knew from past experiences that people want to get out of their so bad. When Ken kept explaining what hell was like to the campers who had never really attended church, i kept thinking to myself they already know what its like, we are in it now! Oh and the pastor’s kids, had special rights to use other showers, and to be the lead singers (they didnt have horrible voices but i knew people who had way better musical abilities to lead worship). But they must have not had permission from the Wildes to praise God, apparently they are almost catholic, because it seems like if you aren’t just so, you can’t talk to God unless its through them. Somewhere i read up at the top of this blog about Tracy’s and the other 2 kid’s need for fashion… lets just say when the rest of the campers wore swim suits to raft, One of the Wilde’s kids was really upset because she lost two rings and her sunglasses in the freaking river! Ya Tracy is right she doesn’t have a Prada bag, thats not good enough, however the Louis Vitton suit cases dont seem to “break” as easily… or get dirty at camp. And yes they do shop at low key stores like Ross, when they know we are playing Ketchup and Mustard games that will ruin their nice clothes. Im sorry but i had no money for years because it was all going to the church and they were spending it not on the church. That is very wrong and i think people need to know that. That is just a taste of CCC camp.
For some strange reason when I left the church on Sundays i always felt worse then when i came in the church. Isn’t a church supposed to bring you hope through God? Not this one. Another place people on here dont know much about is youth group. when i first started going to youth group Ryan used to teach it, he was so down to earth and loving. I remember the poor guy having ONE banana republic shirt that he would wear alot, it was like he was trying to fit in the mold and that was his attempt. But since he was so realistic you know what happened to him…. a new position. So Pastor Krist “stepped” in for Ryan. Now that im in college I can look back and say if you want to go to a youth group that is like a college class then go to Krist, but you wont get college credit for going to him. One time he used this word “Pesteferous” which i still remember because he was so proud of himself for using it. Isn’t that sad? i dont even remember the lesson he taught but i remember the incredibly smart huge word he dug up from a 15th century dictionary. Suddenly after Ryan left i started hating youth group, possibly because i didnt understand the extinct words that he used. Also he would repeat things alot like we were stupid, sorry i forgot to carry my dictionary in with my bible. Once he told us if our bible wasn’t high lighted and written in with ripped pages, then we were not really reading our bible. Too bad that was the time in my life when i was most into getting direction from my bible, but since was doing it the wrong way, i completely stopped reading it. Youth group used to be on wednesday nights and he would and im sure still does go way over, and forget leaving 20 minuets after he’s supposed to be done, he would point it out on stage to everyone to embarrass you (again intimidation by the Wilde family).One night he started a sermon by saying how mad he was because he got a ticket for not using his turn signal (sorry you have to experience the real world).
At least the one thing i can take away from this experience is that now i know for sure how a bad church acts, LOOKS, talks, and feels and now i know how a great church is supposed to make you feel. God bless Pastor Bob Caldwell for being such a realistic man that doesn’t get fired for being the real world. He is someone who really trusts in God and has never, not once asked the church for money, even when he doesn’t even know if he can pay his own bills every month. Capital Christian Center may be good for the types of people that are exactly like the Wildes, but for the rest of us who live in the real world, I am so thankful that Calvary Chapel exists.
HMU, I am not in charge of the house church we attend. Also, it is very small and has not been operating for very long.
Generally speaking, Inside the IC, members should be able to go directly with others to the senior pastor with their complaints. If they get shined on, then they should be able to go to either a board above the senior pastor, as in a denomination, or to a board in the church set up for that purpose. As I see many independent charismatic churches, even what I described would be going too far because too many sr pastors, as I’ve shared before, have surrounded themselves with Yes Men, and because the sr pastor is virtually the only one who can hire/fire them, he has them in his back pocket and they would not be willing to side with the people against him.
You still haven’t answered my other question as to why you were so upset at Sam.
Still Hoping said:
.
I remember when I was a poor student at PBC (Bible Temple/CBC college, where David was one of my teachers!) and always struggling financially to look nice for the services. I had to laugh, Still Hoping; that for the PBC Banquet (where once a year you could have a date without feeling guilty) that I bought a suit at Goodwill, too big in the waist so I cinched it up with a belt, borrowed a tie, and bought at Goodwill again a pair of dress shoes. The only decent pair I could find where about two sizes too big and brown. I spray painted them black (true story) and wore 3 pairs of socks. When I crossed my legs it looked like my ankles were swollen.
I agree with you that “clothes don’t make the man”. It always did bug me that your social standing at BT could be measured in part by wearing expensive clothes.
Thanks for sharing.
“HMU, I am not in charge of the house church we attend. Also, it is very small and has not been operating for very long.”
If you had a complaint whodo you go to in a house church? If they didnt agree with you regarding the complaint, then what happens?
“You still haven’t answered my other question as to why you were so upset at Sam”
Why is this so important to you? Lets stick to something we are talking about..
HMU, If I had a complaint against a brother or the leader of a house church I would go to them in private. If it was serious and they did not respond to me, then I would bring some other mature members of the house church with me.
It’s important to me that Sam upset you because I like Sam and I want to understand why he got to you so deeply.
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The leader of the house church or any other church is going to be the one that makes the final decision what ever complaint it is, is that not correct?
I can see if the leader sinned against you personally. But, what is talked about a lot here in this blog is doctrinal disagreements, church government disagreements and other things like that.
If you disagree with the doctrine of the church you attend and the leader disagrees with you, what then?
I ask these question will all sincerity. I want the church I pastor someday to be as open and honest as possible.
“It’s important to me that Sam upset you because I like Sam and I want to understand why he got to you so deeply.”
Im not talking about that..
HMU, to my knowledge, re “final decisions” every house church operates differently; some would give more authority to the “leader” than others…
re: doctrinal agreement, i think we need to be unified around the essentials, and give latitude toward the non-essentials; the problem is that when the church becomes either over-doctrinal or a business franchise, then too much emphasis can be put upon a long list of doctrines as the core of unity; Jesus as Lord is the one truth around which believers unite
HMU – I think that’s a good question – how to go about discussing doctrinal issues.
I attend a church where if I disagree or have a question about a doctrine I talk to the pastor about it. He is very kind and willing to hear my disagreements and then tell me why I am wrong (most of the time).
When I was at the City Church and did the same thing with Pastor Judah, he had no idea how to back up the doctrines he believes beyond the one-liners his dad used on the pulpit (at that time – I hope he does now), and the decision makers who taught him the doctrines were unwilling to meet with anyone who had legitimate concerns.
Not trying to be harsh, but it really made me feel like it was the “blind leading the blind”. The moment you even asked questions about those doctrines you were branded as a malcontent and said to be bitter. I remember after I asked some questions with all sincerity the pastor preached about me a few weeks later (without using my name), basically saying we should just trust the pastors judgement on those issues, without answering any of the questions raised. I thought that was strange.
David,
“re: doctrinal agreement, i think we need to be unified around the essentials, and give latitude toward the non-essentials; the problem is that when the church becomes either over-doctrinal or a business franchise, then too much emphasis can be put upon a long list of doctrines as the core of unity; Jesus as Lord is the one truth around which believers unite”
As the church grows in numbers. How do we do this? How do we not get “over-doctrinal” or become a “business”.
I was thinking that it would be cool when the church I someday pastor grows to around 200 take a 100 of those people and plant another local body. Of course they people would need to be willing to do that and I would need to be developing the leaders to do that. Maybe that is just a young persons foolish idea. But, I would like to see a city like portland filled with more disciples gathering togther in many locations. Shoot, I dont need to be the big shot. I just want to see people follow Jesus.
I think a pastors goal should be seeing the people reach their dreams, goals, desires or whatever you want to say. As a pastor am I there for the people or are they there for me? My greatest joy is to see someone that I have reached following Jesus not following me. Maybe I am wrong….
Craig said: “I remember after I asked some questions with all sincerity the pastor preached about me a few weeks later (without using my name)…”
Craig, do you mean that he brought up from the sunday pulpit the exact issue that you were trying to talk to him about and then said something like, “If I was this young man, I’d just learn to trust my pastor?” please elaborate because this is way over the top, even though I’ve noticed it done over the years, too…
HMU, I agree that the greatest joy of a pastor should be to see his people grow in Christ rather than getting them all to serve him and his “vision”…
HMU said: As the church grows in numbers. How do we do this? How do we not get “over-doctrinal” or become a “business”.
HMU, This is a big question…but I think we allow different interpretations of the Bible on the non-essentials; we teach the people that love is first not “being right” and we refuse to become a 501c3, etc.
It was on a Saturday night service for “young professionals” with about 200 in attendance. This was about 2 years ago, so I don’t remember the exact words.
The comment was totally unrelated to the topic he was speaking on, but basically said something like -some of you question doctrines taught by the church, but you need to just trust the pastors because you need to be “under cover” of the leaders (referencing the book “under cover” by John Bevere).
This was just after I had questioned him about some doctrines that week. I remember being quite stung by that comment, and felt like I was in rebellion by asking questions.
“we refuse to become a 501c3″
why?
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Amen to that!
Hi Ash!
First let me say thank you for jumping on here and sharing your thoughts and bringing reassurance to me. Even when a person feels compelled to speak and then does speak, it’s often difficult terrain plowing through the minefield of 2nd guessing. So your words are a comfort and strength in the afterwards. I’m saving your post for my scrapbook of course! (it’s a mom thing!) I loved everything you said but I wanted to highlight a few things:
Ashley Kelly said:
It’s so great that you are reaching out to everyone here. That is so YOU and I love your caring heart for all people. I am so glad that you understand that everyone needs a voice. speaking up has certainly brought a measure of healing to us even if the process is slow going. Pentecostal, Charasmatic, Word of Faith Christians have a hard time with this concept because they seek healing in a prayer line. Not that prayer isn’t part of it but that’s only the beginning. It’s certainly easier to go up to the front of a church for prayer and hope you catch some anointing than it is to go through the ordinary channels of healing like everyone else has to.
So glad about this too and can only hope that what could have ultimately caused damage to your faith will only strengthen it now. And maybe if the pendulum has swung way to the other side in reaction to the extremity of what you grew up in, my hope is that it naturally settles into a balanced middle that works well for you all your life.
Thanks again dearest for your kind words of strength and hope.
I love you too,
Mama
thanks mama!!!
Hello Still Hoping!
Wow there’s alot of memories in there and I’m sure just the tip of the iceberg! As you read through some of the earlier threads on this blog I dare say you will see many similar strange stories from ppl from the other churches represented here. You are certainly not alone. (Note: if anyone has any suggestions can you give Still Hoping a link?)
My kids loved Bob and Char too — they were really really great with the kids and always accessible. So much love and good teachers too–made things fun.
I think I have a vague recollection of the Late Sermon! LOL! Your poor mom and how rude is that to film someone coming out of the bathroom anyway! But this Late Sermon — yet another way to make you feel like you aren’t measuring up which seemed to be the general overall feeling of most of us when we were there. Early on I don’t remember Ken being displeased all the time. Maybe because he was younger then. As the years progressed I remember liking one kind of Ken but not the other one. He had a fatherly side (at least from the platform) that made you want to listen. Then the other guy was more driven and not very satifsifed with anything it seems.
I still feel guilty for sending my kids to camp. Quoting part of your story here:
Man, if we could turn back the clock and opt out of sending you all there, we would. One couple who had migrated to Capital for a year from the Vineyard became one of the worship leaders. When they went to camp to help that year, they couldn’t believe all the aspects of what they thought was mind control and crowd manipulation. Needless to say, they left after a year. The leadership thought they were too free spirited and not serious enought.
Well, better log off but just wanted to welcome you here and let you know we are here for you and you aren’t alone, no matter how much you felt that during the years you were there!
Oh I have a question? Why the name Still Hoping? I have an inkling but would love to know the thought behind your name.
Bye for now, Nancy
Heya Nacy!
Still hoping means that I am hoping in God instead of Hoping in the Church like i used to do. I remember hearing all the time in seromons on how to not lean on your parents faith, but i think too much emphasis was placed on faith in the church and hope in the church. While that is true in many ways, I would much rather have my own relationship with Jesus then through the church, after all we are not catholic and shouldn’t have to go through another person to communicate with the big man upstairs. So I still and always will have Hope in God. Read Psalms 31, I read it every night and it always gives me strength and “Hope”. Love you Nancy, I support you in any way!
It’s stories like these that keep me defending this blog against people who believe we are all just a bunch of bitter, pathetic people. When you are a teenager and have to live in an environment like this, where people you believe and trust in, who are suppose to help you mature, but instead treat you like trash and act like total dweebs….guilting you into attending church, what a joke! This dude and all the others like him deserve to be criticized. So keep blogging everyone. People like “Still Hoping” need us.
That’s what came to mind when I saw your name but thought it would be great for you to clarify
I love it!
In Ps 31 when he speaks of not being handed over to the enemy but his feet set in a spacious place that makes me think of freedom. Religiousness is the end of freedom and relationship is the beginning of it. Since you’ve got that going on you don’t have to worry about ever being trapped anywhere again! Good news keeps getting better!
I love you too Hope and I always will!
Here! here!
or is it Hear Hear
?
Wow Still Hoping– I so loved your blog. Its a good place to vent and come out of the closet here. All these feelings and memories -need to be expressed. As I’ve scanned the internet I see that we are not alone out there! It is a fairly consistent story and one that is growing with the Prosperity Message.
If you know a tree by its fruit than this one isn’t good — its roots need to be examined. Lice at the camp–it sounds more like a Concentration Camp!
How about mind control central. Bet they had to ‘rally and rev everyone up for it the week before- am I right?
The Gucci Luggage scenario was priceless–I can just see the ‘special accomodations their kids had. What -was there no Club Med nearby?
This fun camp sounds like the Survivor Show with Paris Hilton staring as
the pastor’s daughter and Nicki as her sidekick. Why do I feel I lived it too!
As someone so aptly said one of the first problems in the Church was a
group that practiced Gnosticism –with the core belief -’we’re special’
“we’re elite” –we’re better than everyone! It caused division and strife in the early church. Sound familiar?
Hang in there ‘Still Hoping’ and read away on the archives –you’ll be amazed at what you see that makes you laugh and closely resembles your own story.
Its time for a change out there for anyone reading!
To Ashley-
What a sweet voice with total clarity. Your story about hiding out in the nursery got me as I think many people resort to working with children because they feel like a child themselves –are not taken seriously or are wounded and trying to avoid more mortar shells there at church!
You will recover and grow and learn as we all are. I have to think and believe it was no accident we went through this–although sometimes I feel I should have had my head examined for putting up with it all.
But how would you ever be able to help anyone who went through something similar. There is something in all human beings
-we want freedom and we don’t want to be controlled!
Are there boundaries -personal ones we shouldn’t let people cross definately. If you’ve ever been in or attended other groups you see that you need a leader or form of leadership -even in business or there is anarchy–chaos. Kind of like a drive in restaurant with 14 yr olds running it at 11:00
when the manager has gone home. I believe God created order in the universe but He did not want us ever to allow anyone -organization or person to be our personal lord -running our life and cancelling out our free will!
The Declaration of Independence called the King of England who tried to control its people ‘A Tyrant’
And when they signed it John Hancock had the largest signature of all
–kind of like you and your mom putting your names out there for all to see.
There are real names & real pain behind these pseudo identities.
Every so often we come forward and put them out there for all to see.
” We must all hang together or surely we will all hang separately!
Isn’t it interesting that the very group that produces flag waving sessions
of high spirited patriotism can’t stand the word FREEDOM!
“Is life so dear or peace so sweet,
as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?
Forbid it Almighty God!
I know not what course others make take, but as for me
Give me liberty or give me death!!
Patrick Henry
Two things get leaders attention that things need to change
MONEY & NUMBERS!
When either one goes down it affects everything. You can’t have one without the other. Of course this was from my years in business -
-oh yea this is City Business so I guess the rules do apply.
When you have to browbeat people for offerings just to stay afloat
or sign loan papers that are questionable than its time for
Dr. Phil’s question–So how’s that working for ya?
“Nothing can sink the Titanic not even God Himself”
so if all the numbers are going down at ccc and staff members are leaving, then why hasn’t the main staff noticed? are they really that out of touch with reality? There seems to be a convenient thick fog when they need it. The intern program… was that started just to help the Wild’s family kids become pastors? can you really become ordained at that place?
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This has been a mystery to all of us, why they don’t look at the turn-over of staff and the revolving door of members as an indication that something could be askew. I guess it’s the thick fog you mention that helps them not look at the facts. That and the Enablers that help keep the whole thing going. When one set of people leave, there’s a line of others waiting to take those positions. For many of us it wasn’t until we were nearest the center of the vortex that we could really see and it usually took pain to clear the fog for us. For others, they see way before and stay a year or two and then leave.
I don’t think that a person can become ordained through CCC but you can through MFI if I remember correctly. But that’s only if your pastor sponsors you.
“I don’t think that a person can become ordained through CCC but you can through MFI if I remember correctly. But that’s only if your pastor sponsors you.”
MFI neither liscenses nor ordains. Each individual local church in MFI licenses and ordains their pastors and elders.
I wrote a long post then it disappeared. Here is a short version.
I left my church on good terms and am still friends with a number of MFI guys. I was not cut nearly as deep as many of you. I was indepent and maverick enough not to buy everything that was being sold. However, reading this blog, I see how common some situations are.
My concern for me is that I do not end up like my college friend Nick. He was from a former communist country and we went to school together 2 years after communism fell in his country. Nick continually said that the Soviet/Communist party was stupid. Yet, he continually would say things that were right from the communist playbook and did not know it. I don’t want to say I want to be different but still say the same old things in different ways.
Quick funny about speaking out. When I left the church there was some other transition going on. On one occasion it was implied that it was good I was leaving because I would have had a hard time through the transition (ie, I would have asked a lot of questions, fought some decisions and not liked the fact that I would be asked to follow decisions I had no say in).
Let me clear up my last statement. When the person said it would be good that I left he meant good for me. That I would be happier if I left.
HMU said: “we refuse to become a 501c3″…why?
HMU: Some find that becoming a 501c3 puts one under the state’s jurisdiction, at least ultimately and opens the door for the typical hierarchical structure in the church.
I appreciate all of your questions, but I am going to be doing less blogging now so that I can focus on finishing up my book. Bye for now and blessings.
i find this whole thing very intense! I went to Capitol Christian Palace (center) off and on for years. Sometimes i thought i was in a black church and other times i thought it was some type of communist church. “Vote for President Bush” i was taught IN SERMONS! The king pastor ken was telling the church who to vote for. The place was strange, i can see why “weirded out was so weirded out. I gave lots of pay checks to that place, man that dude must have been a sales man at some point cause every pastor there was sure comfortable asking for money for the “church” even though it never really went to that. Sometimes that place was spiritually weird. I don’t even know how to describe it, its like the twilight zone or something. sometimes people would pass out in front of the stage while they got prayed for and would go into convoltions and they would through oil at the people like an exercist would do. Maybe i dont understand the point of alot of what they did but to outsiders its creepy. Onej pastor, i think the guys related to the nancy kelly up there,he lead me to the lord, i think he was the only normal person/pastor i met the whole time. He wore hawaiian shirts only sometimes which i bet the dude got condemed for cause after he kept wearing those shirts i never saw him again, sounds like the guy that wore the bannana republic shirt, and he would tell long stories but he actually want to help other people. I hope that dude is still out there doing the same honest work cause if he got ruined from that church, then thats lame. If anyone knows him, i think his name is stanley, tell him thanks for saving me life. I been lookin into other churches in the treasure valley so maybe i run into him again. my point is good people got ruined at that zoo and i want to make other people aware of it so it wont keep happening. i suppose if your perfect with a truck load of money its a good church but normal people dont belong there.
Hi there Goooold –
Stan is at Calvary Chapel Boise helping out there part time and still wearing his hawaiin shirts! Here’s a link to the service times on their website if you are interested
I love your twilight zone description of Capital
Christian CenterPalace! LOL! that about sums it all up!You should try getting in touch with Stan. I bet he’d love to hear from you. You can call the church office 208.321.7440 He’s not there every day but I’m sure his assistant Becky would relay your msg to him. At Calvary they are into returning calls — at least as best as they can.
Let me try that link again:
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http://www.ccboise.org/AboutUs/ServiceTimesDirections/tabid/218/language/en-US/Default.aspx
ahh thats is good to hear about stan kelly!! Thats my dad and Nancys husband, i come from good stock!
sweeeeet i thought you all might be related he was the nicest guy there and if i never me the dude then i think i would be in a bad place. thank you for the info on how to find him i would like to get in touch with the guy. thats super that he still is doin his work even at a different church. if stanley goes there ill sure give it a shot. i hope your family is blessed nancy and ashely you guys kl deserve it after that place. and tell him his shirts are awesome i got some myself. thank you again
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does stanley come on this blogger? i sure would like to tell him thanks.
no he is not a blogger… he is not really into computers
oh ok, well i’ll be seein him around now that i know where to find him. tell your family hello. thanks again.
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Just want to let you know that Ashley and I will be sure to tell Stan all you’ve said and that you may be getting in touch with him at Calvary Chapel!
Dear Wierded Out,
You have a great question about these types of organizations. Don’t they see the continuous numbers of people who leave through the door? No they honestly don’t, or choose not to look at it. It is classic ‘Toxic Church’ a great book by the way! It is part of the delusions of grandeur- when cult or controlled members leave they have to justify it by saying “they are ‘bit” a common term mfi term. And its not bit by love. They are just
‘negative’ or the best controlling phase of all ‘they had an agenda’ My friends and I were accused of not really wanting to work. Really? After giving my life there as a unpaid volunteer for years, taking food to families, being on countless committees & groups -serving for free- working for free always out of love, giving till it hurt — trips out of town-all paid for by ourselves to cheer on the pastor–which part of not wanting to work would that be? Oh yes I failed to give my blood! Sorry!
They have to do something to explain why people just get up and get away. Like an abused wife who finally leaves her husband in the middle of the night, like the polygamous wives who ‘escaped’ from Jeff Warrens cult. Or the lost boys walking through the desert because they have been accused of a false charge in order to make them leave. Yes we left and have never looked back
except to work out our salvation on this blog–with other cult survivors.
I suppose they feel they should have called ‘yet another meeting’ with them to ‘discuss’ or is the term -be released ‘ and than be submitted to ’6 months’ more of abuse. Why should you listen to a tyrannical leader when you are finally strong enough to leave?
That was standard fare at our church–go in and meet with the pastor if you
could 1. get through to their assistant 2. get a real appointment set up
that would hold 3. Stand in there office and be subjected to more abusive tactics 4. Submit to a henchman there doing all the dirtywork –speaking for them while they remain earily silent — hey that one worked the best! (classic
Toxic Church 101 by the way)
They could later claim ‘I don’t like how that meeting went’ yet they never spoke up or said a word–that from people who control every nuance of a meeting.
In the end we don’t like to even give this the time of day. Its not worth it
we have gone on but occasionally come back to the blog as we get emails -phonecalls notifying of some thread that is of interest.
We left our churches with reluctance and pain -because you have invested in alot of people and relationships there–though mainly the King’s family.
If we didn’t get continuous calls from those who are broken –still there-
losing their houses because of being there–we would just close the book on it forever.
No one understands this regime like those who were a part of it. And no its not ‘slander’ to be a survivor of a very Controlling Church who loves to stream their services on the internet for all to see and than discuss it on a blog forum that is meant for those who survived it and gotten out or are about to get out. Sorry kings you can’t control the internet too or the way people think.
If they don’t want to be a public figure than why are they are the internet
and placing videos on U Tube? Is it because they want to stay in obscurity?
You can’t have it both ways! Are you a public figure? And placing your family up there as an example is bit like Dina Lohan saying ‘we want all fame has to offer and your adulation but not the criticism. So which is it –do you want your celebrity or not–we can’t read you.
Interesting how people who love to work in politics and Washington DC
can’t stand one bit of criticism or discussion about their ways or tactics.
If you were actually in office you would be questioned in the press like your good friend Tom Delay. Thats what being a public figure is.
We hate to tell you but you can’t control us on the outside of the compound! The rules no longer apply. We don’t have to stay silent -submit to your ways any longer. You have nothing we want to be a part of -in fact we have a responsibility towards those brothers and sisters still in there to speak out and help them because believe it or not THEY are the ones calling us constantly for help.
Have you noticed whistleblowers come from the inside not the outside?
And usually the most loyal who appear to going down with the ship at the end are the ones who out the CEO’s constantly.
Read your history books—-tyranny will not reign forever. Jeff Warrens has found that out recently, and they couldn’t wait to replace him as leader too.
*A Streetcar Named Desire’ reference for non film buffs
The stage comes on every blog where they try to threaten non-members with slander or defamation of character.
A ‘Lawyer Aquaintance’ says he always advises clients not to file Defamation or Slander charges against any one unless you want to air all your dirty laundry.’
What could happen: A. You want the quotes from all the blogs to appear in the paper. B. All Financial transactions and mismanagement will be reporteed publicly C. Airing of all your dirty laundry will be made public usually bringing even more people out of hiding -coming forward with more information D. You want the IRS to look into your finances and audit you.
Even if you do win- you lose because any threatening & intimidation tactics make you look bad in the community. You may win the battle but lose the war. Also how many fronts can you fight in your war to survive?
Interesting that ‘secret organizations’ are the first to threaten ‘exposure’ when they don’t even tell their members whats going on in their own group.
‘Just follow the money’ — “All The Presidents Men”
Yea I remember a 3 hour meeting praying against Hilliary & Bill Clinton.
I wonder if that can be considered slanderous?
Why didn’t they meet with them in person and tell them their offenses?
Wouldn’t that be the right thing to do?
Have you seen the movie The Firm? They got them on a little
thing like mail fraud. Its not always the big things that bring down
an empire. Termites though tiny can eat away an entire building.
Seen it? We lived it.
A little leaven,
leavens the whole lump!
Just based on the names that you guys give yourselves, “excitybusinessslave” etc. I would assume that many of you are harboring bitterness. Does getting online and talking crap accomplish anything toward healing? Good for you if you’ve gone on to a new church, talk to your pastors there, and ask for prayer! If you don’t like pastors, pray for yourselves, just please acknowledge that you’ve got something stuck with you that really shouldn’t be there. Based on the length of time this blog has been going, it seems like merely talking about your problems makes anything better. You know where that concept came from? Freud, who also believed that young boys were determined to have relations with their mothers….disproven garbage. If you guys had bad experiences at whatever churches you go to, I’m sorry, nobody should ever be hurt at church, it’s the place we go to get away from that, but this is not the answer.
It’s unfortunate that people hang on to their hurts for so long. So don’t retaliate, God will take care of all the mean people, and get yourself put back together!!!
Or that he has a sarcastic or ironic sense of humor. Perhaps you’re only seeing what you want to see in people.
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Thanks “Not Bitter”, I appreciate your kind words. I think because of your post I am going to stop doing this, I just feel so guilty now….
Well on second thought…it’s actually because of posts like yours that I have to keep posting. So sorry to burst your bubble but your kindness really didn’t work. Sorry.
No for real, I take my name because I was a slave to an organization for 5 years of my life. I gave them my everything and got nothing in return. I wasted 5 good years of my young life on nothing! So I post and talk about these issues not to vent on my bottled up frustration. Funny how all you guys think that’s what this is all about. You all still do believe your own BS don’t you? Well, for your information I do this to make sure I can stop some other nieve young soul from falling into the same trap that I was in, and now that you are in. Anyway, in response to some of your questions:
Healing? Who said anything about healing? I “healed” a long time ago. Now I am just having fun taking down the evil empire…he he.
Thanks for pointing that out, I didn’t even notice it there. No, honestly, my life has only gotten better since the day I walked out of those bubbles ten years ago. If you new my life and knew who I was and what I was doing with my life right now, your theory that all people on this thing are just bitter bums sitting around dwelling on their sorrows from bad churches, would be shattered.
Really? Wow, thanks so much for the great insight. What would I do without such profound counsel??? I think it is you who needs to take a look in the mirror. If you are a member of a place that causes so much damage, maybe God is asking you to change, not us.
Sorry I tried. Have fun.
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Smart man (or woman).
Please remember, despite what you have been told by your “leaders”, we are not the enemy. I am simply a man who used to believe what you now do, and treated people like crap because of it. You say you don’t but deep down you do. And now that my eyes have been opened to the truth, I pray yours will be too. I am no less of a Christian, regardless of what you think. In fact I have never been closer to God in all my life. Reason being is now I don’t live a lie anymore. Now I live in reality. The greatest pride a person can have is to assume that their way is the only way. Until you and all the others like you stop coming on here preaching from your soapbox about how this is not the answer, people like me will continue to fight against unjust organizations who blindly sin against humanity. You are not the authority on what God says is right or wrong, so please don’t tell others how to handle their own lives.
Nobody told me anything about you. I stumbled onto this on my own and I genuinely just feel like this isn’t the answer. I don’t care that you don’t like some particular church, your experience has led you to that. I’m really sorry that it had to be that way but I just don’t like talking about people like this. I don’t see any good that can come of it that’s all. Also, I never doubted your faith, you do nothing to rip on God, just his people. I know we’re all idiots. The church is kind of ugly sometimes and hopefully we’re all working toward being better.
Great, now we are talking about something I like.
Why do you think it is that the church is so ugly? Why are their so many idiots blindly following lame ass pastors? I think its because we’ve never searched for answers on our own and everything we’ve been taught at church is wrong. You see I became a Christian at 13 years old. From that point on I was told what I have to do, how I have to do it, when I should do it, where I can do it, and why I’M suppose to do it. Until I was 21 years old everything I was taught was all about what I DO for Christ and not what He has already done for me. Years and years of slaving away for the church and trying MY best to follow people I really didn’t like made me more and more empty. This process got me in the same old cycle of obedience to the law, sin/failure of not doing what I’M suppose to, then guilt of not measuring up, which would push me back to the law. I would do everything in MY power to work at being closer to God, yet I only drifted further and further away. Do you see a theme here? It was all about ME. I was so arrogant and prideful to assume that I had any power in comparison to God’s. Once I let go and began serving Him because of Him and for no other reason, the clock of religion began to slowly fall off. No more dead rules, meaningless rituals, or unpurposful living. I finally discovered what it means to be a Christian. But the problem is every church I have gone to over the last eight years still preaches this same old garbage. ME, ME, ME, ME! Where is Christ in that?
You see I came to a realization that this is why so many people in the church are hurting, angry, and frustrated. They have to put up with this lie for years. And most feel like they are the only ones. However this blog provides the outlet for people in this situation and lets them know that they are not alone. This blog actually helps people from walking away from Christ altogether because they realize it’s not Jesus who is false, just these churches that preach a false gospel. And when one gets the real gospel, they follow Christ with more fervency then ever before.
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Thanks for the clarification NotBitter, and I mean that with no sarcasm.
This may be a new thought for you, but perhaps this is our way of making things better for the Church at Large even at the expense of exposing wrong doing in the churches we’ve talked about on the blog.
To add to Ex-Slaves’ clarification, we are finding that those who tend to want us to shut up and get over it haven’t endured the depths of dysfunction that we have. We have a lot to ‘get over’ and it does take time. Speaking out is our way of warning others but it’s also an exercise in getting out from under the oppressive teaching that seems to be in Christian Culture across the board, that as a Christian we aren’t allowed to say anything about another Christian that shows them in a dishonorable light. The fact is speaking out isn’t defamation of character when the leaders’ bad reputation was established by their own dishonorable behavior.
The problem with a stance of keeping everything covered up is that shutting up about it allows the abuse to continue. I realize that abuse is a strong word and people from my former church would beg to differ at using that word. Even if they didn’t intend to be abusive, the way they did business was abusive, but I didn’t really see it till I worked there. By my last year there it was blaringly obvious that they felt they had a right to live by a different honor system than they were teaching and expecting us to live by.
At best, if people who abuse their power in these churches know that their bad behavior is discussed openly then maybe they will take the time to rethink how they are acting and will pray for themselves and actually reform.
That said, we aren’t getting our hopes up too high since we hear that they are doing some talking of their own — which is ok for them to do but not for us. They have made it known that they think we are just bitter due to unresolved offenses and that we don’t want to move on. This tells us that they still believe that they have done nothing wrong.
Well said bloggers! What is the purpose of a blog and who reads it?
Most of the people who come here are survivors from MFI churches-first
starting with Portland but than their glorious ‘church plants’ that re-produced the same behavior & fruit. There are many who stop by here who are still on staff at those churches either a. wondering what the commotion is about or
b. secretly looking for answers for why they are in pain or compromise.
The amazing thing I discovered by reading this blog way back is that the dysfunction started with the root or Portland Bible Temple and it spread out to its church plants in exactly the same way as a fungus. You cannot separate the starts from the original plant. We all have the same disease because it started with the ‘off beliefs’ from the mother church.
Sorry Not Bitter—I am not bitter by trying to read and discover answers and yes participate at times in the discussion and blow the whistle on something I think is extremely dangerous to your faith.
First you try to learn to breath your own oxygen and than you are able to help others breath theirs. Thats what we’re doing on here. Of course you don’t understand unless you have been
a part of something exactly like this any more than I would understand
the Iraq Veterans experience on their blogs -but I don’t drive by and say” what a bunch of whiners.” Just shut up and get over it,
You are either honest in saying you ‘stumbled’ across this blog or not. Alot of the responders who are negative or bitter are those still on staff – interns or both -working for the organization and in that mode of desparately defending what they are giving their life to. We’ve seen the chain for a long time and when you’ve been in an organization just maybe you know something about it that hit and run people can’t understand. But hey stay and learn –you’ll see why people come here,
Don’t you think if there was a quote safe place to discuss all this in those
churches that people wouldn’t have to come here using anonymous names?
Could it be if enough people are saying the same thing that maybe there is a grain of truth in it? Think Nazi Germany in 1944–get out while you still can–now who said that? Of course they may have been a group of whiners
like the French Resistance!
Now don’t think they wouldn’t have used a blog too in those day!
Maybe the war would have ended a little quicker.
Although I appriciate your attempt at tyring to “guilt” someone into stopping this blog your efforts are very poor. In fact you are only adding fuel to the fire.
Exactly! Couldn’t have said it better myself. That is what we are trying to preach. However, if you spend anytime in these churches you will find that the pastors preach the exact opposite. They are the ones telling the congregates that they our God’s tool and we should obey them…how can you blame a 16 year old young christian kid for falling into this trap of trusing in their pastor. It’s not their fault but the preacher telling them too. And saying that one should not expect to be fulfilled from church is the complete opposite of what almost every church preaches. You are basically saying there is no need for church.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t blog for the unbeliever. If you read my comments I blog for the believer; the believer who is in the fog and trying to figure out why they don’t feel right, why they are confused about feeling so lost when they are told they are suppose to feel so good. And if a non-believer does read what I say then great…it will keep them away from believing in a false gospel, which in my book is worse then no gospel at all.
You’re joking right? This is the kind of arrogance that keeps me blogging. You have no idea what God’s plan is for anyone’s life but your own. Don’t think you are that important to tell others how they should and shouldn’t live under God’s reign for them.
This is such a lame argument. Quite using the same legalistic tricks that everyone apart of these churches use. I serve God wholeheartedly, the only impact the devil has in my life is what God allows (of course I know that is heresy to you). But for you to suggest otherwise shows how misguided you are.
Steve Martinez said:
I think we need to be careful with statements like this. Part of the underlying discontentment around here is the suggestion that we aren’t Christians if we don’t see things exactly as you do.
To be a Christian you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, who died at calvary in payment for our sins, and rose again. I agree that the fruit of the spirit will flow from submission to Christ. And to the extent that people here aren’t demonstration peace, patience, kindness, and gentleness, your point is well taken.
However, I don’t think we must all agree on how to respond to religious authority that is in error. (Or that we perceive to be in error) There are definitely biblical parameters. As Paul told us at the end of 1 Corinthians 10, whatever you do in word or deed, do all for the glory of God. That is a very high standard. We also know that Jesus was not very nice to religious leaders, so was he in violation of this? Of course not. But not every pastor is a Pharisee.
I agree with you that most of this thread is personal and crosses the line from legitimate concern to spite. So I won’t defend this specifically. But the blog itself is a venue where people can discuss things they have previously been forbidden from discussing by unwritten church rules.
Personally, I think it is very healthy to be skeptical of what people in spiritual authority are telling you. Virtually every new testament letter encourages it.
We may not appreciate every attitude. But I know many unbelievers are turned off by the church because of the perception (real or imagined) that Christians simply follow their spiritual authority. This blog is a witness to those people that you can follow Jesus without toeing a particular party line.
There is a new reformation taking place in the church, much like the first one. People are breaking free from their committment to people and organizations and being set free to follow Christ alone. As Christ is freeing people from those chains, it is naturally leading them to look critically at those they were following. Sometimes that is done with a good attitude, sometimes not.
Your reminders are good ones. But don’t start judging people’s salvation because they think differently than you. If you can get through the obvious childishness, there is some good food for thought.
Steve,
Appreciate your willingness to share your opinion even if you are a bit preachy about it. I guess it wouldn’t do any good to ask you if your religious way of thinking is a tool of the devil since you’ve already made it clear your opinion is the righteous one. Furthermore, why is blogging about the bad behavior of leaders necessarily a tool of the devil when these leaders use their position to further their own purposes (which in my opinion is evil) in the name of the Lord and poor unsuspecting Christians suffer the fall-out (which is not just opinion since people’s testimonials verify)? Don’t you think it’s a bit much to presume that we who blog here are a tool of the devil just because we don’t adhere to your way of thinking?
As for serving the church instead of God, how do you explain this comment I just saw on another post:
Since the blog is a forum for expressing one’s opinion, my perception is we are taught this line of thinking in our churches through sermons and the subtlety of peer pressure. It creates a strange atmosphere that causes us to 2nd guess everything we give our time to outside the church as secondary to serving the Lord inside the church. THAT is the reason many people veer off into serving the church rather than God himself. I don’t think pastors realize how much this plays on the hearts of the people who genuinely seek the Lord for direction in where to spend the hours of their week. Pastors may teach that it’s imperative not to serve man but you cannot escape the overall feeling that how much you do for them and for the church measures your level of spirituality.
This isn’t just in your church Steve. It’s a tendency even the most discerning senior pastors have – to make everything about the church world so there’s then no time to develop relationship outside the church. Christians everywhere need to learn to discern between what the Holy Spirit is asking them to do personally and what the Christian Culture is telling them how they should be spending their time.
Doc said
and
Doc,
I don’t think it’s a fair assessment of what some of us have contributed to this thread. Many of the posts are heartfelt and were agonized over. Just because it’s personal doesn’t mean that it crosses the line into spite.
It’d be nice if you are going to label something as spiteful and childish then you could at least specify which comments you are talking about.
Nancy, you’re right. My use of the word “most” was not appropriate. I was referring to the beginning of the thread where people were making fun of word choices and hair. Although I won’t bother describing all the comments I was referring to, I was not referring to you.
Also, the comment about obvious childishness extends to more than this thread. So again, not directed at you. And I think your comments are evidence of my larger point that there is a lot of substance on the blog that we can all learn from. Please forgive my insensitivity.
DOC
I appreciate that Doc. Some days I could just let that go but today isn’t one of them. Thanks so much for taking time to clarify and apology accepted
The people that are still attending these kinds of churches can’t see the reality of the real world long enough to stop being so preachy. People tune you out when you are preachy. The “fear of God” tactic is overplayed this is just my opinion people should not take it into thier hands to place fear in others. They are stuck inside thier bubble of church culture which enables them to get thier point across without condeming any “nonpopculture christians” to hell for being a devils tool. Most of the people on here are still have thier faith. Speaking from my own life my faith is stronger now than it ever was when i was attending my old church. I realized I could not let people tell me how my relationship with God was suppose to be, I had to find it for myself…it worked… i am happy… you call it being a devils tool. Your words don’t make me feel guilty anymore. I know were i am spirtually and thats what matters:)
Its nice to have a place to discuss things that are wrong in the church. I spent the first 16 years of my life being told not to question & look the other way because it is not respecting your elders. Sorry if your trying to shut up the bloggers on here it is not going to work. They have a voice and they are proud to hear it after being surpressed for many years. My suggestion to people that are hiding behind screen names… stop because it feels good to be you and your voice will be heard even more but only if your ready, its redomesticating yourselves from a mindset that is hard to get over.
Don’t judge us because we don’t have the same life as you anymore it does not make us any less than you all it does is make us different.
Well said Ashley! a thought has occurred to me about those who want to surpress our voices. Perhaps it ticks them off that we HAVE a voice now. They are accustomed to having the floor or if they don’t have the floor, then their leaders have had the floor, and they think we don’t have a right to speak–at least by their rules.
So welcome to the Real World everyone !
it probably really bothers them that we have a voice and we are outspoken women
“The people that are still attending these kinds of churches can’t see the reality of the real world long enough to stop being so preachy.”
Ashley, “the real world” are you serious let me ask you what type of real world your talking about. When is the last time you saw a person with their head blown off because they were too caught up in their issues and felt suicide was the only option?? When is the last time you had a heart to heart talk with a 13 year old who was high on methamphetamine, and pregnant?? When was the last time you spoke to a transient on the street, drunk trying to figure out what he was going to do for food??
This is what I am talking about, this sight isn’t “BAD”, its the fact you guys are sitting around here having a pity party about how you have been hurt, or told how you were supposed to live while you attended a “voluntary church service”.
The devil loves when the focus isn’t on saving lives, so no matter what the subject is it becomes a tool of the devil.
I am not here to be “preachy”, I have sinned plenty, probably worse than most of you throughout my life, but I understand that God is a God who forgives and forgets. Yes as humans it is much harder to forget things but as a Christian we must try and do that. This sight is all about the past and its not about trying to help others see through the fog, like Church slave said. We cannot dictate how people treat one another, but when you start placing man on a high platform, you are setting up failure.
The thing is, I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty, that is the Holy Spirit tugging on your soul. I am not trying to shut down this site either. As a matter of fact this sight is amazing. There have been over 1.5 million hits on this sights which shows it has an impact. Imagine the amount of people that can be touched. Turn this negative spirit into a positive one and lives will be changed. I read most of the blogs and felt so down, the message doesn’t have to be about the past.
I leave you with Ephesian 4. This chapter talks all about the unity of the church. Verse 11-13 says “it was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors, and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service so the body of Christ may be built up. until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”
This is all done through the Church that is united.
Steve,
I’m genuinely perplexed that you find this site to be negative and you don’t think that people are touched, especially since you obviously have experience dealing with people who are in great emotional pain. Do you not realize the depths of pain caused by abusive church leadership? Do you not think that people who have been abused by the legalism and hypocrisy found in these churches haven’t taken their own lives or turned to drugs and who knows what else to escape the pain they’ve experienced in church?
I visit this site regularly, though I rarely comment. It has been a place of refuge for me and a place of spiritual healing. I have lost count of the number of friends I’ve had who left an MFI church and never returned to the Lord. Is that what you would prefer? Or would it be better for them to have a place they can go to sort out their feelings and their beliefs…and eventually restore their relationship with God?
The focus here is absolutely on saving lives…how could you think otherwise?
Hi Steve and welcome to the forum where Christians from controlling churches can finally have a voice to speak what;s on our hearts. I can’t speak for everyone though I’ve followed this blog for a long time -but its given many on here the ability to ‘be able to give a reason for what they believe.’ No one is hiding behind their identities or screen names -thats what a blog is –you don’t need to put your name out there unless you have a special reason to ‘be known.’
Its the very act of staying anonymous that helps those from controlling families or churches get to say whats been surpressed for years.
Yes there is some negativity here –immaturity and at times real anger. Welcome to the real world. Maybe if real Christians had a ‘safe place’ to vent their real feelings –like in Psalms –than they could strengthen their faith and end each day like the Psalms do with total hope.
I say yea to Ashley and Nancy for having the courage, audacity, or purpose on this particular thread–subject- forum- to use their real names but there is no condemnation either way. The greatest thing about the blog world is that people can remain anonymous and actually find their voice.
If you are new to this world than you wouldn’t know that each person on here actually have many identities depending on their voice, mood or subject for the day. So again even if they surface once under their own name, they could be speaking out under many different voices or identities on every forum.
Just wanted to help you understand but I know that may still not do it as we have encountered many a voice on here trying to shut down the very thing I believe the Lord has used to help heal others much like group classes and
prayer sessions of which we’ve been a part of.
Read the entire blog first and see if you can’t find some pattern here.
If you’re enjoying your MFI church world and you are presently being treated well than enjoy it while you can. We have all been treated well there too– excited when the Senior Pastor actually knew my name or actually talked to me in the hall -wow! Is the sun shining down on you there right now?
Maybe you are in with the right people or pastors’ kids I don’t know. So if its going well for you hurray– but hold on to your hat – because the seasons change and suddenly you find yourself out in the cold and then you know how it feels with a new understanding and compassion like you’ve never known before.
We didn’t know we were worshipping our pastor or his kids till we got and experienced a real church where the pastor’s family is hardly ever mentioned.
No chance of worship there! And guess what? One Sunday after a few weeks I woke up and felt I’d found the Lord again. And I didn’t even know He was missing!! Imagine that — I had spent my life in the prayer room -just ask my kids and I found out Jesus was missing?!
Wake up all of you before its too late-its not pretty to find you’ve been worshipping at the wrong persons feet. The Lord told me its called
misplaced loyalty. I also see it as idolatry –not pretty and I’m ashamed
I’ve been there –but maybe I can help others on a forum like a blog.
well… DOC threw us all under the bus.. and WHY do you come to this site if you apparently find it so disdainful?
How can you possibly know what Ashley may have seen or experienced?
Most likely no one ever really asked her. I’ll let her speak for herself.
If you have personally seen or experienced these things than don’t you desire a real church that can handle real people? Does your church have a house for people recovering from meth? How about a suicide/counseling service for those who are depressed? Teaching the true Word.
The best barometer I know of is to look at the church bulletin–or web site.
See just how many ministries you can pull down.
Have you checked out the 3 big MFI church calendars lately –they are a joke and if you can find a half dozen real ministries to people who aren’t pretty
than let us know! That is in between patriotic or prosperity conferences.
Where exactly are those millions of dollars of tithes and offering going again,
I can’t remember or maybe I can.
Blog identites can say it all………
Your mom is a tool of the devil.
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I didn’t intend to throw anyone under the bus. But I do understand why some people who first show up here get the impression that it is a bunch of angry unforgiving people. Some of the comments simply attack people and don’t deal with issues. I think that hurts some of the blogs credibility. Could just be me.
When I first discovered the blog I had some similar reactions to Steve. But after I got through some of the first impressions, I was able to appreciate the heart of whats going on here. So that was just my effort to encourage him to hang in there and maybe learn something.
DOC
Wow. I’m just starting to read this blog and am blown away by the commonalities across ‘this type’ of church.
I am at a loss as to how we are going to heal from what we went through but maybe this is a good place to start. I understand the concept of detox – just not sure where to start.
How is it ok that in a church that is supposed to be guided by the Spirit and His Word, has no clue what the Bible says about offense? Our old church (LHF) shut people out when they brought up concerns and launched an outright attack complete with false and very incriminating stories when they left the church.
We’re going through that now and its beyond painful – its devastating. Sure you can say “hey, just leave” but it can tear a family/individual apart to break way from something that you gave so much of your life too.
Although I have faithfully attended church since I was a teenager (BT/CBC, than LHF), I can very easily see now why people walk away from church forever. If it weren’t for our children, I would never go again.
We’re in so freak’n much pain.
Hey David Mackin – such a long time.
Dear XLHFer2,
I empathize with you — BTDT 3-4 years ago. It’s very difficult.
This was the only way I could cope: I had to separate God from the church in my own heart. I had been told all along that the church represents God, and they all act like they are God (speaking for Him, interpreting the Bible for Him, counseling for Him, etc.).
So rather than run from both, I ran to the Father, and He helped me. When I took the Church-Leadership-Represents-God filter off my eyes, it relieved a lot of guilt and fear. Then I could see that God is God and humans are humans, and I can respond to each accordingly.
I hope this helps a little. I wish I could talk to you in person, but anonymity being what it is… {{shrug}} … we’ll have to make do.
Welcome Ex-LHF- we so understand your pain. Just know each week it will get a little better but there are ways to speed it up. Many of us had no where to go but this blog at first –these are people who understand your pain. Of course you don’t know how to De-Tox because you probably never had to or thought about it but there are resources.
First off order the book Toxic Church -at Amazon is amazing and you’ll see yourself in its pages. It is essential to help you understand what just happened to you at a controlling church. We know about the kid thing through your transition time -so if there is anyway you can take them and slip out for coffee to talk to a healthy friend or someone who understands we would recommend that. I went through taking my kids to church for 6 months at an Ellis Island type of place –I just sat there numbed out and in pain because I had been in leadership. This didn’t really help and actually hurts.
The Lord showed me you have a dirty glass of water and it HAS to be emptied out first before He can refill it with clean water. Everything from worship to reading the Bible, even prayer has to seriously be redone.
There are too many triggers that will set you off at a church right now—certain worship music, verses –taught wrong no doubt –and even the atmosphere of other ‘happy people’ enjoying their church life when you are in searing pain. Don’t worry it will come off in time but you have to help protect yourself even if absolutely no one understands for a while what you’re doing. They may get nervous and worry you are losing your faith. You are losing it–
the toxic faith, but regaining a real relationship dependent on the Lord alone.
Just slip out of church as much as possible and de-tox. Its takes a long time to get this stuff off –we should know! The internet can help you alot-
look up Spiritual Abuse website and read about people who got out of
controlling churches esp. Charismatic ones like this —-its amazing the
common thread you’ll see. Eventually you must look up Latter Rain for it is the deception–a common denominator underneath it all. For now just take one step at a time and be careful who you share with. They won’t understand but just tell you to quickly forgive and get over it without processing any truth at all. The Lord showed me ‘how can you truly forgive that which you don’t understand –so above all get understanding on it first. The rest will come but its a ‘process’. Something charismatics used to going to a prayer line don’t like talk about. Its not instant but its real!
Just wake up and pray for truth and get some ‘fellowship’ here and some laughs
when needed. You’ll get better!
Ex-LHF’er too, welcome to the blog. I hope you will feel comforted in knowing that you are definitely not alone. A majority of people on here have some kind of tie to BT/CBC and/or a MFI church and used to be mind-warped into believing the garbage they preach. It is for people like you that I continue to say what I say. Its tough being in the fog stage you are in right now, but trust me it gets easier the longer you STAY AWAY from places like CBC. They preach a false gospel filled with all sorts of lies and misguided use of scripture. They tell you things that simply are not true and they use manipulation and mind control to guilt you into thinking that without them you cannot survive. When I finally got out of that environment I started with a church plant that’s entire focus was on God’s grace and perfection. There was no preaching about what we as Christians have to do for Him, it was all focused on what He has already done for us. The key to recovery is ACCEPTING GOD’S ACCEPTANCE OF YOU, with nothing more. It took me a few years but when I started living the truth that there is no me in Christ, I became a free man! As De-Tox said you have to completely empty your mind of everything you were taught before and start over. I recommend picking up a few books like the Ragamuffin Gospel or the Discipline of Grace and finding a church like The Well in Portland. I know you want your kids in church but you need a clean break. Besides you do not want your kids to be involved with such bs, do you? It’s ok not to go to church, God will still love you the same. Just remember it’s the church you want to leave not Christ! I will seriously pray for you. Keep your eyes 100% centered on Jesus and nothing else. He is all that matters in life, this other stuff is just passing through.
are you freaking serious? they are trying to guilt us into not blogging? what a joke, they just proved in writing again their true colors. just like old times “maybe if we guilt the congregation into feeling bad about their lives they will give us more money”. As far as i am concerned every time a current member gets on they just keep proving us right and them wrong. I bet they are having HUGE prayer meetings for us and that our “evilness” stops. Maybe they might stop to think that God is trying to show them something useful. Not everything they see is evil and has to be stopped. Same old same old.
The issue here is that I consider the prosperity gospel abhorrent. and DOC, is really, kind of cool with it.
Whatever. It doesn’t Matter. I don’t write this blog for the DOC’s of the world, anyway. I write it for the Ex-LHF’ers who have been hurt by their church and need a place to go to realize they’re not alone.
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I had a great talk with my brother (who hasn’t read this blog in years and never posts) about what’s happening with this blog, and he said something that really rung true with me. He said “humility goes a long way in life” and if the leadership at CBC, CC, LHF, CCC, etc. would just take the humble road and acknowledge that they have hurt a lot of people, made a lot of mistakes, and acted improperly in the way the have dealt with peoples lives there would probably be a lot less bloggers out there. A simple public letter of apology stating something like “we’re sorry for anyone we have offended and hurt, we were wrong” would go a long way. But instead they keep trying to guilt trip, shift blame, deny, and outright attack those who have spoken out against them. I mean sending letters from lawyers, are they serious? They just don’t get it and I doubt they never will.
Catalyst said:
Do you think I’m cool with the prosperity gospel or cool with the fact that you think its abhorrent?
For the record, if there was a contest for who hatred the prosperity gospel more, I would be very difficult to beat.
DOC
Except you would never publicly oppose it. See, at least I did something. This blog isn’t perfect. And God knows I’m not perfect. But at least I publicly took a stand against the prosperity doctrine.
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I agree, DOC your statements make you sound like you’re trying to be balanced and please both sides of the fence.
Who cares if some people act “childish” or “cross the line” as you put it. I’d rather have someone tell me what’s really on their mind in a way that makes me get their level of frustration then hide behind the lie of wanting to be a “good” Christian. Nothing Steve said was a “good reminder.” There’s no middle ground with Christ. You are either for something or against it. Please watch this video as a reminder of how destructive the W of F doctrine is. We shouldn’t hold back in fighting this heresy.
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Just a reminder you guys. Doc did clarify and apologize. Maybe there’s more going on than I can see but just want to address this part of it.
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Good point on the prayer meeting thing Still Hoping! But I was told they never think about us so why do we think about them and not ‘get over it’? To clarify, we don’t sit around thinking about them all the time either, believe it or not. How flattering for them that they think everyone who leaves is sitting around thinking about them all the time.
Ya, just about the time we forget their existence, one of the self-righteous call us the devil’s tool. Unfortunate choice of words there Steve.
Its not a matter of pleasing both sides of the fence. I just think sweetness of speech increases persuasiveness. So if we’re trying to persuade people of their error and not simply venting, we’ll be more persuasive if we don’t attack them personally.
Jesus does. He wants us to love our enemies. If we love those who love us, what good are we?
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Yeah I get your point and understand where you are coming from. It’s all good. I’m just over that “Mr. nice Christian guy” thing. There’s plenty of nice Christians sitting in pews all over America doing nothing with their lives. I’ve spent that last 3 years away from the church, living and working in the real world, and I believe a message of a radical Jesus who is strong and powerful, smart and wise, and a fighter of evil and injustice is going to have more of an influence where it counts. I’m tired of “Chrisianity light.” Just like light beer, its a watered down Gospel that never tastes good to those who want the real thing. I love my enemies (through Christ alone) but I won’t bow down and let them walk all over me either.
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Steve,
I know that in the real world horrible things happen and people experience pain. All i am trying to say is that when you are envolved in a “mega pop-culture” church you tend to live inside this bubble. Being a police officer you obviously see first hand the lowest part of society on a daily basis. In your case this doesn’t apply to you. Please, don’t talk to me like i have not seen my fair share of harsh realities… I have.
We are not sitting around having a pity party. We are individuals who have been taken advantage of by what we once called our church & our sancutary. Becoming apart of a church IS voluntary but does it make it right when our LEADERS have false motives. Joining the church is just like joining the army and going to war. Once you get over there and see first hand that the cause is not just does it make it right because you volunteered? Does that mean that you should not be listened to because you are going through Post traumatic stress? Well, this site helps us get over what we went through by sharing our stories. All i am trying to do here is tell my story, i don’t wait to have to justify my voice anymore. I don’t care if it is heard by anyone who is in the church. I don’t blog to have it heard, i blog for myself because each time it helps me heal. If my story helps other people who have been in the same boat as me in the process then okay thats great too! I am not looking for pity, i don’t need it. What i started looking for here is my voice… i have found it and i am proud to hear it.
You can call me the devils tool, but i am finding my faith for myself not through a church. My relationship between God have evolved and changed. I am not going to let people come between my spirtuality ever again. That may not be happening with you and the church but it happened in my life. I spent so much energy and time on doing the things that made other christians happy i lost my faith. It was a sin to allow that to happen. It may upset you that i don’t need a church and i am better off without it. I won’t judge you if you live differently than i do BUT just because your path is different i won’t let it get to me if you start judging me and calling me a devils tool.
I don’t lose sleep at night over what anyone thinks about my life or my soul. I have it in check and my advice to you is to not worry about it either. How much time does the church spend on other peoples lives when they should be putting thier own in check?
After reading the different reponses about screen names i can see your different views and i respect you for pointing that out to me. I know that not everyone has the same path as i do and we chose to do things based on our lives not anyone elses. Having my real name be my screen name has been half of the healing processes for me. I understand that this might not be the case for everyone. I grew up in a church were my dad was a pastor and my family name was always known. My name was known but never MY VOICE so being able to connect the two is important for me.
Also, thank you to everyone who spoke up after reading our blog. It is always encouraging to hear new stories:) Welcome to a place were you can have your opinion be yours…right or wrong… church or no church!!! Long live the Blog which is the closest thing i call church!
Interesting, I like where you are coming from. A church is suppose to be a place for believers to come together to share in communion and fellowship in their love of Christ. They reach out to the sick, take care of the needy, and help lift someone up when they have fallen down. Although a “unique” idea I think this online community is a great concept for a “virtual church” with a mission to reach those who won’t compromise their faith for money.
as long as we don’t become organized i am in:)
So wait.. I’m confused. Where do I send my tithes?
you can’t sorry!!! all you can send is your opinion & you voice:) i know i know its a hard life
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But the front page does say:
So who do we make the checks out to?
Maybe to an account at Kell’s Irish for pope, catalyst, et.al. to utilize??
Kell’s? I’m in.
I Have heard them preach and teach and they are excellant. Now when I say this its no disrespect to krist wilde. But Judah Smith is one of t he best communicators out there he speaks around the world. I do understand that he is in leadership but also remember he has a family and I personally k now them and they are going through a lot so just re word what you say.
Amen, Have a great day
john,
would you mind re-wording what you just said? I’m having trouble following you.
Who have you heard preach and teach that is excellant?
Why is Judah being a great communicator any disrespect to krist wilde?
Who do you k now personally?
Who is going through a lot?
I’m as lost as Judah Smith in a KMart right now.
The other day in church I had a scary flash back as the offering went past me…
I remembered how I used to have to hear long drawn out speeches (before the offering baskets were even brought to the sanctuary) about the consequences of not participating in giving my life’s savings to the church. If you missed putting all your money in the second or third time the basket passed down your isle, it always found its way back in front of you with the wafting smells of guilt behind it. The new church I go to is very different. By the time I get my wallet on my lap, the basket is three rows behind me and on its way out the door (at my old church I would have already given all my cash by this time and would have been breaking out the check book). I practically have to have the money in my pocket ready to go before I even get to church. Just a nice little memory I thought I’d share with some other past members that can sympathize with me.
With memories like that, Still Hoping, I’m surprised your name isn’t “Still Hopping Mad!”
Yes I remember it all too well! One particular time we were encouraged to ‘Write a check in faith for the amount of what you need TODAY and God will give you back EVEN MORE than you need TOMORROW’! My friend fell for it, being rather desperate for financial help, and wrote a check in faith. Unfortunately the check bounced causing her rent check to bounce and so on. She’ll never do THAT again (I hope!)
Check out this youtube of Paula White scamming her audience for one month’s salary so that God can take care of you the rest of the year! It’s all the same fleecing of the flock.
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GOOD One Jack
I have a feeling she still is but trying to let go of the angst!
Ya the offering must not be the priority there. Yet, somehow they manage to remain the most fruitful church in Idaho as in numbers, in ppl coming to the Lord, in Missions projects in India, in a huge college outreach, small groups that visit the nursing homes. . .
makes you wonder about priorities and how God blesses you when you get those straight as apposed to blessing you based on your financial gifts. wow. Grace vs earning it. concept.
And notice the youtube comments on Paula White on “thou shall not judge” and “give your money in faith and God will deal with their issues” etc…
Scam artists particularly target the Christian population because they know where to find large populations of gullible people.
I used to work for an MFI church. I know several of the people you speak of in this blog. I know a couple of you that are bloggers. Just yesterday I told the Lord I didn’t want to hurt anymore. I didn’t want to feel angry towards a certain church I used to work for. I won’t mention which MFI church because I don’t feel free enough or healed just yet to epxress my real name or church back ground. However, all I can say is that I thank God this blog is here. I don’t feel isolated any longer. I see that I am not crazy for feeling like I was beaten to shredds by those I trusted. Spritual abuse is so catastrophic on a soul. I feel like this blog has helped me in many ways. I am not bitter just extremely wounded. A sheep bleeding and bleeting “help me” for I have just been canablized by my own kind. I was part of that revolving door of staff members that came and got too close to the vortex (as Nancy stated). I love the Lord with all my heart. I trust my leaders, to a fault, obviously. I was labled a “crazy” divorced single mom, which in these churches is no better than a second or third class citizen. Stumbling upon this blog was no mere coincidence. This I know to be true. Thank you for to each and every one of you for speaking your heart. I love Christ’s bride and I know the “real bride of Christ” loves me back. I will overcome these painful wounds I lick even three years later. Thanks again for the candor and plain speak of normal non-abusive Christ lovers.
Natasha,
Thank you for your openness. I hope you find healing and will be able to trust the Body of Christ and leadership again. I’m on the same journey. Nobody has a right to label you a “crazy divorced single mom” or whatever BS label they come up with.
I left that place and decided its better to avoid the crazies and church people who are hurting me and my walk with Christ. I was afraid of being alone because i used to participate and be a part of the church group as a teenager. I was alone for sometime.
Later, God brought me to a good community of believers where the real word was preached. By no means is my new church perfect but there’s sincerity and I feel that as a community all are focused on Christ and not other things. I’m very thankful for that. I feel that i can serve according to the gifts God made me and give out and I dont have to fit a man-made image in order to be used by God.
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Awesome! You are not alone and time will heal all wounds. Now that you are out of the control, settle for nothing less then the real Gospel…a gospel of all things Jesus, where grace rules the heart. A gospel where money and position don’t matter, performace means nothing, and faith is at the center. A gospel of righteousness that you already have by simply living in Christ rather then working for Him. A gospel that will forever guide your thoughts and actions because of what He already did for us, rather then what we think we need or should do for Him.
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You got THAT right!!
Reformer Said:
I need to put this on my wall!
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Hi Natasha,
There are some good books on dealing with the sublety of spiritual abuse that helped us alot. If you are interested, check out our blog and they are listed in our book section. “Toxic Churches” is one that comes to mind and another good one is “Toxic Faith”. Neither of them is tedious or long and you can return to them for bits and pieces when you need. “Twisted Scriptures” is another one that speaks to what we went through.
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I was a member for 10 years at one of these MFI churches and personally know of @ least 75 others who have been seriously wounded, spiritually abused and some wont even go back to any church because of the damage that has been done to them, all in the name of the Lord and all by the leaders & their children of these churches. These Pastors are “killing their sheep” and will have to answer to the Lord for this.
@ Another abused… Ah, don’t you know? It’s not the pastors’ fault. It’s those darn sheep. They are rebellious. They don’t pay their tithes. They “touched God’s anointed.” They are demonically influenced. The list goes on …
Anna;
My favorite was a “SR Pastor” told me that it was my job to not be a burden on him. We (the laity) MUST make his job easy … It was our duty as Christians. … bla bla bla
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WHAT???? My jaw dropped… literally. Truly! You sound so patient, controlled, and calm, NBCC. Lately, whenever something comes up like that in conversation, or someone says something that sounds much like a presumption of the sort, I say, “where is that in the Bible?” It’s interesting, because after at least 10 of those questions, I’ve been shown verses once, and yes, I was wrong. The other 9 times, I didn’t give in to just assuming they’re right, even when they believe 100% that they’re correct.
I don’t blame them for taking “principles” as truth and the written or spoken word of God – I care about and love these people, they’re precious to me – we just have been told the same thing over and over again, so we tend to forget it’s not “biblical”… it’s Damazioal.