Judah Smith’s Protege
Posted on May 14th, 2008 by catalyst into the Comments From Others categoryWe get emails, lots and lots of emails:
I just came across your blog, and find it fascinating. As a former member of the City Church and Capital Christian Center, and a frequent visitor to CBC I had to send you these clips.
Meet "Pastor" Krist Wilde, the youth pastor at Capital Christian Center in Boise (Son of Senior Pastor Ken Wilde). He is the self-proclaimed best friend/cousin of Judah. He has spent his adult life trying to duplicate the life and ministry of JS. In fact, in the first few minutes of the clip from April 2008, he mentions his jealousy of the fact that he is stuck preaching while Judah is attending this year's Master's Tournament watching Tiger Woods. (2:50 in the clip)
http://www.capitalchristian.com/Resources/MediaViewer.aspx?id=74&st=1
Krist's messages are marked by:
Large words he looks up in the thesaurus and uses in incorrect contextsLots of the same marriage/sex references Judah uses
The same wardrobe stylings and flat-ironed hair from the Judah playbook
Same long winded sermons filled with lots of fluff and no substance
You combine the lack of sincerity with the desperate attempt to appear cool, and frankly, I felt a little embarrassed for the guy.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Yeah I’ve seen him preach once or twice. Aside from the indiscreet showmanship in vocabulary, he talks and gesticulates just like JS.
I think JS is a sort of role model for MFI youth pastors. They all want to be like him.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Did Christian Soriano get his look from Judah, or was it the other way around?!?
May 16th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Maybe I’m losing my critical edge, or I am “healing from my bitterness,” but I have nothing but good things to say about Krist Wilde.
Sure, he is in the City/MFI milieu and a disciple of the JudahChrist messiahship, but in my brief interaction with this individual I found him to demonstrate relational qualities that I never found in JS. Despite being a member of JS’s youth group, I felt closer to Krist and deeply intrigued by his desire to learn and his willingness to converse with young people that were not even in his youth group. No one ever really got to have a real conversation with Judah, so talking with Krist was a eye-opening experience (I realized that youth pastors are actually human, not divine).
Granted, he does use a few words out of context, but he actually uses quite a lot of learned speech properly (something Judah probably never will achieve). But, he is a learner and a kind man, and that is rare in the kingdom of JudahChrist.
Having said those nice things, let me poke fun at Judah a bit more. I always loved it when he said ‘irregardless,’ which is a lovely double negative. And, both he and Wes, one of his disciples, pronounced ‘acclimated’ like ‘akk-climate-ted.’
May 20th, 2008 at 8:23 am
This comment will reveal how old I really am, but I remember in ACTION night (do they still do that? I always thought it was a good concept) holding little, painfully shy 2 year old Judah on my lap and praying for him.
I suppose my prayers were answered in ways I never expected!
May 20th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Glad you got to see that side of Krist. But was that in his home church or was he visiting yours? What I remember most is he was really bad at answering his phone, returning calls, and keeping appointments, which doesnt give a youth pastor a good rep. Also, I think the Wilde’s did all their shopping in Seattle and DC so the metrosexual look he sported was a little over the top in Boise. Most people with money here don’t flaunt it. Except, of course, at Capital
ChristianBusiness Center.I do agree that he seemed to love to study the word and I often wondered if he’d be better off studying Bible at an accredited Christian college and then later becoming a professor somewhere if that was what he wanted. But who knew what he really wanted. He was
stuffedsmashed into a suit in order to grow a youth group that began to dwindle once his parents ousted the dynamic Jonathan Owens so Krist could take his place. JO was then placed in another position till heleftcould find another job with someone who respected him.They say now he’s being groomed to take his dad’s place even though he’s never worked under any other ministry outside of CCC to learn to become a responsible and valuable employee. But if daddy owns the business, who needs to learn the work ethic, right? Ken and Wendell need to study what CEOs of a multimillion dollar companies do with their offspring. Business saavy leaders understand the VALUE of shipping your heirs off to someone who won’t coddle them. Then when junior is ready and OPTS to return, you’ve done the business a huge favor. But alas, like Judah, Krist has only ‘worked for’ his dad. And believe me, the result has been a double standard that’s pretty hard to ignore. At least that’s what I hear from a long list of former staffers.
But Krist is a NICE guy, have to agree with you there. Somehow I can’t help but view him as a
victimproduct of a cult-like society trapped at the mercy of his own inability to thrive without his father’s help.May 20th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Wow well said ex -slave! You nailed it.
So what price is a $400,000 house, (yes thats right!)
new cars & designer clothes worth if you
don’t have freedom to live your life as you want to?
He’s a slave too –but the ones I feel sorry for are the kids forced to listen to the stiff delivery. They go crazy there weekly unless they submit to the forced delivery. He is sweet you’re right but you haven’t witnessed the worship fest
they have there —its wierd to worship your own family members isn’t it?!!
Maybe the ministry doesn’t fit any better than the suit does–
-man that look uncomfortable!
Too bad these kids can’t stand up to their fathers.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
I’m sorry you have to resort to such personal attacks. My brother and cousin are excellent communicators and two of the most humble men I know. Instead of addressing the many falsehoods on this ridiculous blog, let me just ask you to be careful when swinging below the belt. I understand if you personally don’t connect, relate, like, etc Krist or Judah. Here’s a shocker…that’s ok!!! But seriously, the personal attacks and the defamation of someone’s character is unnecessary…and frankly, unacceptable.
Please be cautious with your words and remember these men mean something to myself and others. I don’t want to have to talk bad about your mom…but you may be asking for it.
thx
May 21st, 2008 at 5:44 am
Go right ahead. Clearly, you don’t know my family very well.
But look, I get that you don’t like us speaking negatively about your family. That’s understandable. Here’s my problem, your family is in a position of leadership, and yet, there is no real forum for anyone to question them. And that’s why we get emails like we do, and why I end up posting them on this blog. It would bode well for your family and church to set up a system which allowed members to register complaints against them, or else you’re just going to end up getting more blogs like this.
That said Tracy, defending your brother is what any good sister would do. So I take your criticism.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:32 am
Tracy…do you want a second try at this comment? Maybe go with:
My brother and cousin are excellent communicators and two of the most interesting men I know.
or
My brother and cousin are excellent communicators and two of the most passionate men I know.
or
My brother and cousin are excellent communicators and two of the most fashionable men I know.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:03 pm
“That’s understandable. Here’s my problem, your family is in a position of leadership, and yet, there is no real forum for anyone to question them.”
Are you a memeber of either church?
“why we get emails like we do, and why I end up posting them on this blog.”
Could some of the emails you get be from people who are just wolves in sheep clothing?
“It would bode well for your family and church to set up a system which allowed members to register complaints against them,”
Why would you do this?
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:00 am
Hi Tracy,
If anyone would speak up publically for your brother and cousin it would be you, which is commendable. I remember you to have a gift of being straight forward and not given to clandestine activity.
I can imagine that it’s beyond hard to see anything negative written about someone you love. But I have to agree with Catalyst when he says there isn’t, or in my case, wasn’t, a forum to speak up at your church. Asking questions was often considered a signal to leadership that a person had a problem with authority. If you guys want to live like that, then that’s ok for you I guess. But if there had been an atmosphere of openess and discussion perhaps the people who have left and now speak out wouldn’t be doing so. In fact, some of them may have never left in the first place.
The truth is people wouldn’t be speaking out if there wasn’t something valid to speak out about.
But to clarify, I’d like to distinguish that speaking out about having a problem with the lifestyles of leaders and with their leadership style is different than poking fun at how a person looks or speaks. Both seem to be going on here and I can see why it’s hurtful to you.
But, instead of dismissing the whole thing as evil, would it be acceptable to get beyond the immature stuff that you are seeing here and perhaps take a look at some of the more valid grievances people are sharing? It could be a tool to take stalk of what could be tweaked to make your church a better place for everyone and not just what’s best for the leadership.
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:42 am
Obviously, you’re not — or at least you’ve never questioned the leadership. Otherwise you wouldn’t even ask this question. The statement comes from experience.
If you had read the emails (posts), you would see that they are from people who were in the system — not outsiders seeking to devour.
Um, duh. Are you asking this for real?
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:03 am
“Um, duh. Are you asking this for real?”
Ya..
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:18 am
I don’t think what I said was defamation of character. I was just stating the obvious. It would be defamation if it weren’t true.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:50 am
Tracy
So glad to see you’ve arrived and welcome to the forum where people
actually have freedom promised by the Constituition of the United States.
We were wondering if you were reading all along and now the lid is off.
Don’t you think its a shame that people have to resort to sorting their feelings out,
venting from the spiritual abuse suffered at the hands of their pastors in the form of the internet? If there could have been any honesty -true fellowship than you wouldn’t have to read the truth of people’s feelings here on this blog. Sad isn’t it.
Church doesn’t have to be painful. What will it take to get your families attention next? This isn’t a theocracy and people don’t like being ruled by
elitist leaders especially in the pulpit.
We feel sorry for you actually –but open your eyes. You and your kin have caused a lot pain to alot of people by the way you “do church.”
Don’t the numbers leaving through the revolving door ever mean anything to you. We don’t have all the answers but church does not have to be like this and whether you know it or not–prada purses or not you are also a victim.
What is your price for freedom? Maybe God is speaking to you right now through this blog if you will listen. Have you been praying about or for freedom to live your life lately?
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:53 am
We always said the only thing that will get your famiies attention is when your
church credit card no longer works at the spa.
Hold on now for the water might get a little rough. Its not a bad idea to have a back up plan. Over and Out!
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:55 am
Free At Last! Free At Last!
Thank God Almighty I Am Free At Last!
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:04 pm
How can you prove that it is not defamation of character?
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
What is your price for freedom? Maybe God is speaking to you right now through this blog if you will listen. Have you been praying about or for freedom to live your life lately?”
Freedom in her life? Are you saying that their church is a cult and that her parents are cult leaders? What do you mean by this?
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_of_character
May 22nd, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Sorry trying to understand –only she can ask or respond to those questions.
Define the word cult as no other word in the English language has so many definitions. If you mean cult like tendancies- we say yes!
If you mean cult like adoration of the pastor leader-we definately say yes!!
It was expected for you to respond.
If you mean controlling measures from the pulpit and culture there –
we mean yes! If you mean that Tracy would have to defy her mother and
father’s wishes to say move–leave the compound-live abroad on her own
get a new job –”out there”–we say yes. At least that is one definition of the word freedom. Free to do and live as you choose.
When interviewed the polygamous members of Jeff Warren’s ‘ extremely close
group’ did not feel they were associated with a cult. “Of course we have freedom” they exclaimed loudly. You decide.
May 22nd, 2008 at 3:22 pm
HMFMB wroted:
So you are suggesting that someone is “guilty until proven innocent”?
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Agreed. These churches provide no outlet for anyone who disagrees with them. I have lost best friends and good relationships with leaders, even seen family members split up over the fact that I/we questioned the “cult” like atmosphere of these churches. It’s always done in the most innocent of ways at first. Usually starts with a little concern over the way Doug Lasit or Judah Smith treated a kid that fell morally. We ask if they should have just pushed him/her out of the youth group without even trying to help them recover from their sin. Then you get semi-black balled for raising the issue. You start to get less invites to events. They send you less emails. When you see them at church you only get a half smile and a head nod. As you try to figure out what’s going on and connect with them they just ignore you. Before you know it they stop returning your phone calls and our to busy to meet with you. Then after a few months you are completely shut out. It’s a subtle downward spiral that occurs to those who are not on their side, who do not buy into their iron first rule, and who disagree with what they say you should do. Go ahead and defend such evil and un-Christ like behavior all you want, but the reality is that most people here on this blog live in the real world. People like DL and JS live in a fantasy world where they are surrounded by yes men who will tell them how great they are on a constant basis and stroke there ego to know end so that they too can be apart of the “cool” club. Well its gross, sickening, and downright evil. And I don’t care what anyone says, I’m glad they get called out for it. Even if it is sometime hurtful.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:24 pm
“prada purses or not you are also a victim”
i think this is suppose to allude to me owning a prada?!?! not quite sure but..never have,oh wait,except for the fake one i bought in chinatown. does that count?!?! the strap fell off in a week, but it was a cute little bag while it lasted.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:27 pm
or how about the people you grow up with in church…your closest and most trusted friends. one day they leave the church mad. they give no reason just leave saying horrible things about you as they slam the door in your face. you leave voice messages, emails, send letters…and they refuse to speak to you. then you see them at target or the mall and you make quick eye contact only for them to pretend they didn’t see you and go the other direction. you shout their name, giving them the benefit of the doubt, and they slowly turn to you only to glare at you with no life in their eyes. still…your totally in the dark about why they hate you.
that’s the other side ex-city.. but i’m sorry you’ve ever felt isolated..i know how that feels just from the opposite side.
bless you.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Hi Nancy!!
How are you? How have you been? I think we should go to coffee sometime and catch up. I understand you love being at Calvary, that’s awesome. One of my best friends goes there…you may know her. Anyway, I’ve never known why you left Capital..I don’t think anyone does. I understand my parents and others repeatably tried to get hold of you but to no avail. You had the opportunity to say what was on your heart but declined to do so. That’s ok, but I think we should get together so we could talk. You were always someone special to me…especially cause of the music connection.
I’m not much of a blogger so I won’t find myself here anymore but please email me so we can connect. I can tell you all about my interesting year and show you pictures of my new niece and you can fill me in on your music happenings and tell me how Ashley is. I haven’t seen her in ages.
xoxo, tracy
May 22nd, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Tracy Wilde said:
Tracy, since you opened the subject up, perhaps I should clarify. You may not read this but at least I can paint a truer picture of what took place at the end of my 20 years at Capital. I think your mom called me once after Stan and your dad had lunch after we left, so I don’t think repeatedly is quite accurate. He had asked Stan that day why I left and Stan said because there was never a two-way street type thing going on and that I just didn’t want to live like that anymore. So maybe your mom wanted to try to make up for years of distance between us by calling me out of obligation or something.
I know in your Christian Culture, the way I left was not typical. The reason I didn’t subject myself to the exit meeting interview to hear that I should stay 6 months before I go is because I was already gone and didn’t feel the need to do so. I guess too I felt I had shared enough of my heart with your folks through the letters or notes I’d writen in the earlier years and I was all shared out. I remember you asking me one day why I wrote notes to your folks and got the sense you thought it was weird. It WAS really weird. But I am into writing and it was my pathetic way of trying to connect with them. We all had built up too much of a reverence for your parents. Partly our fault, but it was also generated from over emphasis of the pastor role in your type of church in my opinion. Too much honor given and too much honor allowed to be given. Anyway, not responding at the end was the right thing to do in my personal circumstances. I felt that my silence this time around could make more of a statement. After all, not responding to other people’s calls is something your folks are known for so I thought they’d understand. I wont even go into the fact that when I had found another job and wanted to talk to your mom and give my 2-weeks notice (since she was the administrator at the time) she wouldn’t return my calls or emails nor would she respond to her secretary about it. I had wanted to give them a two-weeks notice but finally had to do it through an email. But that’s another subject.
Another reason I didn’t feel I should subject myself to being in a closed room with your folks is because of my need to get out from under the authoritarian intimidation that they exude. It wasn’t healthy for me and I was the one who allowed that weird dynamic over the years. I had finally come to terms with the fact that I was no longer in a place of obligation to them especially since I no longer employed there. Their lack of interest in my families’ life had become increasingly apparent and once I faced the truth about that, I was completely disenchanted with being there.
Now that I am healthier I realize that we place way too much expectation on the leadership of the church and the church itself. And that too is another subject. But in defense of all of us who expected too much, we were taught to expect something that could never truly be given to us. For one thing, we took vows in church between the leaders and the congregation like a marriage ceremony. Why wouldn’t there be an undercurrent of expectation if leadership was making husband-like promises to those who joined the church?? Now THAT was weird! So I’m not the ONLY weird one. I guess in that way there was a two-way street;-)
Maybe someday you and I could go to coffee, but I have a sneaking suspicion you may have been trying to make a point in your post rather than truly wanting to meet with me. I understand that and no harm done. I’m not sure what good it would do now because it would just cause who knows what. We could try it, if you and I both feel right about it when the time comes. We’d have to see. I’ve probably already told you more than you’d like to know. And I don’t plan on ever returning to Capital. I’m pretty much churched out to tell you the truth. I do like Calvary’s style and simplicity but it’s just church and that’s been a very healthy thing.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:21 am
Wow Nancy,
It is amazing how a family can acquire and abuse so much power over individuals and families. I attended the City Church, and it is basically the same institution set up over there. Amazing how the Bible clearly warns about such people…but it took me such a long time to “get it”.
I’m shocked Tracy even posted here…but good for her.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:38 am
Tracey Wilde wrote:
If she was so “special to you”, Tracey, how come you never tried to contact her yourself?
So, you breeze in for a few messages, dump your load and then exit before she replies? You really don’t want to hear what she feels, do you - after all, clearly you are insulating yourself from whatever she has to say …
Why don’t YOU email her, or call her?
Oh, never mind Tracey - your reply just goes to prove Nancy’s point. I’m not at all surprised she gave up on your church since clearly authoritarianism (a caste system), phoniness and superficiality abounds there …
Sam
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:58 am
Thanks Nancy for your openness. I’m sorry if you felt like I was trying to “make a point” on this blog. I wasn’t, I know my heart was in the right place but perhaps it wasn’t the right outlet. I just assumed since everyone is so open on this thing…I could be too. My mistake. In respecting you and the other’s on this blog, I would rather email you directly (but I don’t have your email and I possibly assumed you had mine since mine hasn’t changed…there you go Sam). Apparently I “assume” too much. I think there’s a way to know someone’s email on this thing but I’m a blog virgin so I was hoping you would help initiate in that.
But in case I never hear from you again, let me at least say I’m sorry. I can’t say this for anyone but myself, so it may not even mean anything to you.
Maybe even in regards to something you said above: ” I remember you asking me one day why I wrote notes to your folks and got the sense you thought it was weird” I apologize for making you feel weird..I honestly never did think it was weird. I just may have been being stupid. It was common at that age…and probably still is. But whatever the reason knowing or unknowing, please forgive me.
I’ve gone through a lot this year and, ironically, my heart is more open towards people…especially people who have been hurt. If I hurt you in any way, I sincerely apologize. I’m sure at some point I could have said or done something to offend you..I know its a shocker.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:51 am
Now there’s a way to respond.
I have no idea who you are Tracy so I am an objective third party. And I applaud you for coming on here and speaking your mind. It’s very respectable. Whereas the “others” in your family try to ignore the fact that this beast exists, its good to see someone has some guts to talk about things out in the open and not coward behind the pulpit.
I have lived inside churches like Capital Christian and the City Church before (went to CBC for 5 years and worked as a slave for that place), so I know exactly they kind of disappointment caused by leaders like the Wilde’s and Smith’s. It’s not your fault you are in that family. However, it is your fault if you can’t acknowledge that they run their churches very poorly. The way they’ve treated people, ruled with an iron fist and ignored the truths of the Gospel is quite sad. This is not a group of 10 or 20 angry dissenters who just love to complain (although those people are on here). This is a group of educated, hard working, Christians who have had their eyes opened by establishments that try to manipulate and control their lives by playing on their innocence in loving Christ. And the truth is most of us have lived on that side before. I know, I used to be a youth pastor and preach that same garbage all the time. I wish I could go back and find every kid I preached to and apologize for being so wrong. It’s been a long process but God has completely transformed my heart with a new understanding about what it means to be a Christian, biggest of all is the realization that there are no superstars in the Kingdom of God. Judah is no better then the janitor who sweeps the pulpit that he just spoke at. Somewhere along the way it appears that they lost that notion and have put money, notoriety, and power above representing Christ. Being fake, phony, judgemental, and arrogant will eventually cause leaders like these to fall. It’s just a matter of time.
So going out to coffee, patting someone on the back, and telling them your sorry is not going to fix the damage that’s been done. If you or anyone else really wants to change to make up for the way people like Nancy were treated there has to be a heart change, not just an image change.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:56 am
Does the church have a membership list, wherein her address and telephone number might have been looked up? Sorry Tracey, but I think “I didn’t have your email address” is pretty lame …
Sam
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:31 am
Hi Tracy,
I wasn’t necessarily offended if you WERE trying to make a point, but could have misread from the ultra chipper tone of your post. Most everyone here is trying to make a point in one way or another. That’s why clarifying is always good which a best friend of mine is always saying. Seriously, I thought your whole last post was tongue-in-cheek reaction to my previous post to you and you were publically calling me out for not leaving the church in what you guys consider the proper way etc.
That’s why I answered with a detailed explanation. I also understand that in your world, what seemed like a clandestine departure to everyone there, would be viewed as an act of an American right of freedom in mine. But remember, if there had been a meaningful two-way street relationship I would have owed your folks the explanation then. By relationship I don’t mean that we needed to be best friends with your folks or even hang out. I mean that because they were asking (not really asking but demanding) so much time from my husband and increasingly not satisfied with what he was giving, they could at least genuinely care for our well being more than they did. We were all giving up our own dreams to help promote your dad and one day we each woke up realizing God was no longer asking us to do that. It raises alot of questions about what we were taught and what our own inner motives were. I think God wanted our hearts back because somehow we shifted our allegience from Him to them. Again, partly our fault, but partly because of how things are set up there. Back to my departure, my audacious silence was my yelling to the rooftops (since no one else was really listening) that there simply was not a relationship. Like I said before, since my communications didn’t work up until then perhaps a different approach was necessary.
But anyway, thank you for the gracious apology and I genuinely accept. Even though I’m not sure you are the one to be apologizing I appreciate the sincerity that’s coming across in your reaching. Ben told us about your hardship in this last year and we were truly saddened by it. I did send you a short little note on myspace letting you know you were in our prayers but not sure if you got that so let me reiterate our condolences for your loss. I’m sure you are still healing from that and hopefully you can take all the time you need to do so.
I think the girls in the office may still have my email address if you are so inclined to email, but I completely understand if you are not. If we continue to write each other publically it may garner reality show attention. hmmmm, now that’s a concept!
Loved your ‘blog virgin’ descriptive by the way - lol
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:56 am
Hi Craig,
There ARE amazing similarities from the stories that come from all the churches mentioned here on this blog. From City Bible, City Church, Capital, Doug Cotton’s churches, Rhema church — those are the ones that come to mind — all seem to have a particular way of dealing with those who ask questions of the leadership. Like Ex-City Slave’s description of the slow death of no longer being acceptable which resembles the shunning the ex-mormon polygamy cult people were talking about.
Tracy is indeed the first who has shown any sign of reaching across the great divide. At least that I’ve seen. I haven’t read every post on this blog though so there may have been others. I don’t doubt her sincerity but I wonder if she’ll be able to truthfully look at what has gone askew in her world without feeling disloyal and getting a huge amount of flack for it. If we suffered from some guilt of disloyalty how much more a family member.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:24 am
Sam said:
To stay insulated or uninsulated, that is the question.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:25 am
Maybe that should/ve been: To insulate or not to insulate that is the question.
May 24th, 2008 at 8:41 am
Hello CBC Blog and anyone who may read this,
Since I’ve written my lengthly descriptives to Tracy on this blog I’m suffering from writer’s remorse. I guess I haven’t completely lost my conscience since I dared to leave a church in an unacceptable way.
This morning, I’ve thought about emailing the blog moderaters to remove this thread from the blog or at least removing some of what I wrote. There are a few reasons for that.
I’m wondering if I’ve said too much — exposing too many details of somone’s less than stellar behavior to get my point across and at what expense. I wince now knowing I could be inflicting pain upon those who haven’t wanted to see the pain they have inflicted on so many people over the years because they aren’t really thinking about all of us. How they’ve been taught and what they are teaching certainly shields them from how their style of leadership is doing more harm than they realize.
I’m worried about my family because of what I’ve said–especially my son who still attends the church and is close friends with the senior pastor family. I’m torn between his needing to know how important it is not to remain silent when you believe change needs to take place and wanting to be quiet out of respect for his friendships. I’m worried that my words could hinder my husband’s job security. Certainly if he worked for an MFI church and his wife blogged about why they left a church, he’d be removed immediately or if not, then he’d die the slow death. . . Thankfully he works for an intuitive and discerning senior pastor, but you have to admit, the Christian Culture universal expects us all to stay quiet about certain things pretty much across the board. If we do speak up we are deemed unforgiving and still have a root of bitterness. Side note: Could it be that the healing process of forgiving takes years and not just months? And wouldn’t talking about it help the process rather than hinder it?
As I sit here with my box of kleenex wondering what I’ve done and not knowing what to do about it, it occurrs to me that whoever reads this should at least realize the dilemma a person faces when choosing to speak out in order to help bring change.
I truly believe that the Lord is shifting things in the way we do church today. Could it be that HE is unhappy with the celebrity-driven worship-fest kingdom-building machine that much of the church has become? If He IS unhappy with it then He must be smiling upon the churches like Pam Hogeweide attends that stay simple and reach out daily to those in need.
If I remain hush-hush about the problems that I know affect other people, especially if those I love could be next in line for the same bad treatment, wouldn’t I have to bear THAT on my conscience just as much as the weight of my words hang heavy upon me now? Whether I speak out or don’t speak out I am inflicting pain.
My friend emailed me yesterday when he saw the developing conversation going on in this particular thread. I hope he doesn’t mind if I quote him here since what he said says sings out how important it is to be accessible to others whether we are leaders or not:
“I’m amazed how little Christian leaders know about the people they claim to love and care about … we talk about politicians and how out of touch they are with people with the privileged and insulated lives they lead … pastors, esp. mega-church pastors, are just as out of touch, perhaps more. I don’t get it … shepherds should shepherd - that means going after the lost sheep - it means going into the ditch by the side of the road, getting dirty, and helping the person who has been beaten and robbed … guess that means they’re shepherds in name only … ”
If there is any hope for us now it’s getting back to the simple faith in Jesus we all began with. Doing things the way he did, one on one, one by one, two by two, the daily connections each of us encounter. Church should just be a place to refuel and get back out there to our world who needs one touch of love at a time. We can only do the best we can and try to remain undriven. Somehow if we place everything in Jesus hands, He will give us the ability to help meet the needs of those who are in our lives for whatever reason. But it’s probably going to happen one conversation at a time with love actions one step at a time. Somehow Jesus gets lost in the big mega hype when He really seems to be all about eye contact and listening and waiting on us to remember He’s present.
May 24th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Nancy,
I admire and respect what you have been saying. I think it is healthy to get all of that stuff out in the open. I don’t know you personally or your entire situation but I can tell you that sitting in silence and not talking about it will only make you bitter.
I attended BT from my early childhood through young adulthood. I left BT very bitter from hurt and pain that was inflicted on me and instead of talking about it to anyone I remained for years unable to even think of wanting to attend church or have anything to do with God.
I wish now that I had spoken up and wish that there was a venue like this for sharing experiences and opinions.
It is very frustrating to see that so many people continue to get hurt by the same groups of people and no one accepts responsibility for that.
I am thankful that I am free now from all of the cultish behaviors of BT-CBC and it’s affiliates.
I can’t help but believe that the Lord does not approve and must be saddened by these churches and they will be held accountable in the end for those people “Lost” because of their behaviors.
May 24th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Reading this interaction between Nancy and Tracy reminds me of my attempts to clarify communications I have had with members of Churches like CBC. We step out in honesty and then we cringe at the fact that we may be inflicting pain or hurt upon another member of the body of Christ. Over the years I have stepped over the ‘communication’ line a few times in my passion and attempt to help those in leadership understand - always a failed attempt. The finger was always pointed back at me. At one church, those of us who spoke up to try to help the leadership change, were labeled the ‘cancer’ of the church. Once we all left, I remember hearing the pastor’s wife say, “things are so much better, the cancer has left the body”. What more pain can be inflicted!?
What I have come to believe is that we need to be so connected to the Father, that we try to only speak out when the Father tells us to. Although we may not be heard or our attempt may actually hurt us all over again, we are ’sacrificial lambs’ as change needs to come to the body of Christ.
Nancy, your post, has helped me not feel alone. Your pain and your heart were very clear and although I don’t know all of the circumstances you faced, my husband and I feel very similar. We are still trying to find a church home and to ‘unlearn’ all the unhealthness that surrounded us.
May God bless you as you heal and work through. And, please don’t dismiss Tracy and her attempt to connect. Miracles do happen in relaitonships within the Body of Christ. And God does change the pain to a sincere love for all those involved.
Comfort and peace as you and your family continue…
May 24th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Nancy,
To have said nothing, would be unloving. I’m also reminded of something I learned in counseling - where there is much anger and hurt, there is much love. If you were indifferent, it would mean you did not care. I believe you love those people, care deeply, and all the more so because your son is there.
“There is a voice of one crying in the wilderness” … could it be that God has allowed you to be so, that they might hear and respond, in love and with repentence?
Trust it to the Lord’s hands - do it as unto the Lord - and remember that “all things work out for the good” … ;^)
Love your heart, sis!
‘Scrupe
May 24th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
To my great friend Nancy,
What courage -what clarification. It takes more courage and caring to come into to the light here and expose the darkness than all the sermons combined!
You have a team of people behind you who support what you are doing - who are reading this blog daily. It has been very healing and made us laugh when
absolutely nothing else could! We see we are not alone either.
We are called ‘ Survivors’ at our new church and amongst ourselves. Each time we dare to share something of our past from our last ‘fellowship’ they are astonished and amazed at what went on across town. In fact its hard for them to fathom so we come to places like this where we don’t have to explain the complete and total dysfunction that was our worship fest.
Though this has been painful to read and write we are so glad you did it
and representing us all from Capital Christian today for they are not just your feelings but thousands of others. Yes we ‘ve heard from people all over the valley –each one has a story to tell! And they stop and tell us in the post office -grocery store- coffee shop!
This last thread actually gives us hope for it is the closest thing we’ve ever ’seen’ to a real conversation with insiders still there. You leave and they don’t call or ask why. You get told later what was said about you–’you were bit’
you were negative –you didn’t submit –you had your own vision. oh aw!
The word shunning quickly becomes part of your vocabulary rather quickly as people at the grocery avert their eyes, steer their carts away from you.
My first experience of it came right after leaving. I tried to talk to someone who had been my friend in a gift store. I tried once -maybe she didn’t hear me. Twice -maybe I wasn’t loud enough and the third time was met with an icy glare and a rush to get her children away from me. Suddenly I got it –she was one who called my Pastor’s wife daily and she she was shunning me. And it began! Instinctively you don’t leave these churches because you know this is what you’ll face when you leave and no one -but no one wants to talk to you.
They will stand there however and tell you how much they love or is it are
‘IN LOVE” with Pastor! Once your eyes are opened its enough to make you sick that you once sounded like ‘one of those.’ An ex-pastor we know calls it the Stepford Stare–and says Passtoor in a nauseating tone that we all recognize.
If there was a good way for you to leave Nancy no one has ever found it short of moving to Texas where they quickly sat on the front row just as they did here.
Be brave, be direct and be bold for we are praying for you! For whatever reason you are our voice right now! As I read in the message Bible today–
‘Come quickly to my aide Lord
Show my enemies You are on my side.’
Nothing is harder than being on the opposite side of those we once served
and cared for but with casualty after casualty we had to retreat and regroup somewhere else.
We are still Christians still believers but damaged in the battle. We relate to
Paul now–man what a loser he was!
I wonder how these pastors or families would feel if their daughters -sons or even husbands or wives stayed in a fellowship they left and were encouraged to do so causing great pain and strife to other family members.
My husband was asked ‘where is your wedding ring’ when he attended
after I left. I guess it was in hopes we were no longer together.
Ha! It took some time- but he got out.
So keep up the fight and clarify away. If they want to discuss it they know where to find us and its not on the blogasphere!
May 24th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Nancy,
Thank you for sharing. I understand the your dilemma with sharing personal encounters with people you are still connected to. But the conversation between the two of you is a reminder for many of us that we really aren’t crazy.
Tracy,
You and I have never met and it sounds like you have had some personal tragedy, so I will try to be sensitive to that. But I’ll also try to help you understand what you’re dealing with when you come to a forum like this (which I appreciate and greatly respect).
Your over-the-top effort to appear cheerful appears insincere. I know you think its a demonstration of love, but it looks like total detachment from reality. The idea that you get really happy and start making jokes when people tell you they think your family is dangerous seems insincere. If it is sincere, thats kind of weird too. But really, I don’t know anyone outside of church that feels obligated to act happier the worse a problem is?
Also, when people have a problem with you, they don’t want to know you aren’t angry. Frankly, they might appreciate it if you were so they felt like they mattered to you. But ultimately, they want to be understood. That’s how you can love them, and it seems like you’re interested in understanding. Even if you don’t ultimately find agreement, they want to believe that they are important enough for you to have taken the time to actually understand why they feel the way they feel.
Many feel that the organizations that your family is involved with labels anyone who raises questions them as backbiters, murmurers, disrespectful, insubordinate, unforgiving, etc… That allows ya’ll to dismiss their concerns without considering their merit. While thats probably not true in every case, I know it is true in many. And it is impossible to explain how frustrating this is.
We didn’t leave City Church culture because we left Jesus, but because we finally found Him. And when we ask ourselves why He has been hidden from us for so long, we realize there were lots of well paid people distracting us.
Therefore, understanding the people in this forum will require time and a critical evaluation of people and things that you hold very dearly. That isn’t easy. .
Here are some of the questions I started asking that led me away from the City Church.
Why do pastors call each other “pastor so and so”?
Why do pastor’s refer to themselves in the third person by their title?
Why do pastor’s have a dress code that poor people could never comply with?
Why is there a dress code at all?
Why do your churches have pictures of the “important people” all over the church and church literature?
Why is everything about the church service rehearsed to create the greatest emotional response possible?
Was the Holy Spirit able to reach people before modern worship services were invented? If so, what is the purpose of all the production that is involved in worship today?
If Christ died so that we could have quality of life, why were those closest to Him jailed, beaten, tortured, and executed for loving Him?
If the greatest in the kingdom of heaven shall be the servant of all, why does it feel like pastors are Christian celebrities?
After considering these questions for a long time, I concluded that the church was organized in a way that exalted the church, its vision and its pastors, more than Jesus. I think thats a problem.
I realize you may not agree with the all the characterizations in these questions, but thats where I’m coming from. It may help you get inside our twisted heads a little bit.
Again, thanks for hanging out with us on here. Your presence is appreciated.
DOC
May 26th, 2008 at 7:43 am
Thanks for the reassurances Early BTer, Tri4Christ, Survivor, ‘Scrupe’ and Doc - your words since I last posted are a comfort and help me not feel so alone too.
Some would question why there would still be pain after 3 years. Haven’t you moved on YET? Why are you thinking of them when they don’t even think about you (until they get wind of something said on a blog)?
First of all, it seems to be a common expectation in Christian Culture across the board that we have to “get over it” quickly. Is it since we are Christians that we think that we aren’t subject to the same processes of healing than the rest of the world? The common expectation is if you want to be healed of something the best way is to jump into church work and you’ll get better as you go.
I think those of us who left our former churches ARE moving on. Just because we talk about it doesn’t mean that we aren’t picking up the pieces of our faith and moving on. A lot of what we are discovering is that we had certain hungers and spiritual addictions that we need(ed) released from. If we aren’t jumping right back in to church serving, it’s because we don’t want to repeat anything unhealthy with motives other than it coming from grace and our gratitude for what Christ has done for us. In other words, serving out of pressure from the pulpit or from our own remaining sense of obligation is not the reason to help out.
Also, just because posts show up on a blog doesn’t mean that we think of our former church leaders 24/7. It’s just that, instead of cramming our experiences into the obligated and legalistic abiss of silence, we discuss amongst ourselves when something surfaces again. Because it will surface and continue to surface from time to time. Better to get it all up and out and dealt with than to surpress it in fear of being cursed by God. It’s been proven by the counseling world that issues suppressed always show themselves later.
This brings up yet another Christian expectation: When you have a problem with something, we aren’t supposed to talk about it to anyone but Jesus. There’s even an expression about only talking about a problem on our knees or something I thankfully can’t remember. Just because we are in discussion with each other doesn’t mean we aren’t praying about it too.
Are we “over it”? In some ways, yes and hopefully more every day. Is there forgiveness? Yes, but it’s not a one-time declaration in Jesus’ name; it’s a process. Is there healing? Yes, but it’s a journey of a multi-faceted healing. I know that sounds kind of complicated but it’s not overwhelming when you just take one day at a time and trust God with the timing of it.
We need to take as much time as we need before we put our hand to the plow, especially if that involves church work. Many of us are busy doing the work God’s given us outside the church. For some reason, that’s not shrouded with whatever comes with working inside the church. It’s straight forward and productive. Not slamming church work, just saying if our decision to to do something is surrounded by the murky confusion of leftover guilt and obligation, then perhaps it’s not for us to do it yet. When the Lord says we are ready, then whatever we do with our hands, we can do so in grace and not because of Christian expectation with a sense of obligation. Everyone will be better off because a healed and ready person is less apt to be surrounded by drama than one who is still trying to process and still has trigger reactions to past stuff.
With all that said, this is what we’ve come to in our discussions in our world here and it’s what we are finding best for us.
May 27th, 2008 at 9:46 am
Think of the Christian life this way:
When we receive Jesus into our hearts and into our lives we need to have an effective spam filter to keep out all the nasty messages with multiple links to the religious do’s and don’ts as well as a myriad of other types of distraction. If everything we do is “surrounded by the murky confusion of leftover guilt and obligation” it’s like having a blog and spending all your time manually clicking away spam. You then have little time to blog and you lose heart because now your energy has been consumed with keeping the guilt at bay.
So when we share the Lord with others, why would they even want to live like we do when all we are doing is deleting spam?
Does anyone have a suggestion on what a good Christian spam filter would be? or in other words, what works for you?
May 27th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Nancy, what an intriguing thought - a Christian spam filter! I’m not sure where you may be going with this, but I immediately thought of Eph 6 (the full armor of God) and Galatians 5 (fruit of the Spirit). Methinks I need to spend some time praying, meditating, ruminating, investigating, applying and then inculcating the principles (I like words that end in -ing!) into my life.
Again, thanks for the thoughtful question. I look forward to other responses too.
May 27th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
TO Our Dear Friend Nancy,
Your posts have illicited phone calls and general buzz –so that is a good thing.
This spam illustration is perfect as its what we are trying to do in our Christian Lives now free of the charismania lifestyle of living for ‘big meetings’ ‘big conferences’ and even ‘bigger offerings.’ Whew glad thats over and we’re getting down to the main thing.
When people look at us knowing how ‘intense’ we were before they somehow get worried or think we’ve lost our faith. No we’re just finding it again!
The Lord Himself that is.
We know even getting this close to the vortex has taken its toll on you but
just hold on because we are holding you up. Like a chapter from the book
‘Toxic Faith’ –all this ’stuff’ is toxic to your faith. It takes time and alot of
de-toxing to get it off.
No wonder Paul said -this one thing I do -forgetting what is behind!
I still bet he learned from it though.
May 28th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Well, these scriptures are the most obvious ones that come to mind–especially for those who have years of the Bible study behind them.
However, I really like the words ruminating and investigating. If we don’t think things through and investigate when we have a question then we let others do our thinking for us.
If my great friend, Survivor, didn’t have such an inquiring mind, we would have never found this blog and some of the books we’ve read since leaving Capital! Both the blog and books have saved us, not to mention the careful guidance of the Holy Spirit who is becoming more real to us than ever.
May 28th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Nancy asks: “Does anyone have a suggestion on what a good Christian spam filter would be? or in other words, what works for you?”
Nancy, great metaphor!
I would like to submit that a Christian’s spam filter is learning to listen to his/her own spirit (fed by the Word and prayer).
This is important because even many “good things” have to be made clearly God’s will for us personally before we take up the load for ourselves. E.g., the Bible says that it is pure religion to visit the orphans and widows in their affliction. Does that mean that I am supposed to drop what I’m doing and spend every waking moment ministering at rest homes? I think not. I must follow the leading of the Spirit for my life because I cannot do everything - neither am I supposed to try.
May 28th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Hi David,
So true about the Holy Spirit. It’s really a relief and exciting to discover that he/she isn’t asking us to give in to Christian peer pressure or wear “Saul’s Armor”. He/She (but don’t want to say ‘It’) leads us all separately with a customized template so to speak.
Unfortunately the reason that metaphor came to mind is because I’m on a learning curve having a blog now attached to my own website. Deleting spam seems to be taking up way too much time till I learn a bit more about Akismet and API keys and plug-ins.
It began to remind me of how this whole christian culture thing makes me feel. It’s not that I hate Christians, even if I do want to avoid many of them, it’s just that the stuff we do to each other is becoming progressively over the top. Not to always quote Survivor, but she comes up with so many great thoughts and the most recent is: When I became a Christian, I didn’t sign up for all of this. I thought I was asking Jesus into my heart to give me a better quality of life.
So my spam question has to do with how to ensure a good quality of life for those who receive Jesus but don’t want to have to deal with the annoying side of the culture.
My daughter’s boyfriend’s jeep has a sticker on it that says “God, save us from your people!”
May 28th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Nancy Kelly wrote: Tracy is indeed the first who has shown any sign of reaching across the great divide.
Nancy, Fortunately, Tracy is not the only one. I have recently met with Ted Roberts, former sr pastor of the mega church East Hill Family Church (Gresham, OR). One of my articles confronted him (someone else informed him of it) and he posted a strong response which precipitated our meeting. More later.
Nancy, thanks so much for your sincere and honest sharing with tracy on this blog!
Tracy, thanks so much for coming to the blog; hope you continue to do so.
May 28th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Suvivor Said:
You are so right! We just don’t want to live like that anymore. That’s one of the main reasons we left. Even if all the other past details weren’t the other reasons, our quality of life is reason enough to get off the ship. In the transition time afterwards, we’ve had to fight for our own faith but it’s been worth it.
Doc said:
exactly!
May 28th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
David wrote:
Good to know and I’ll be looking for that. I guess I COULD move beyond this thread and explore a bit!! I’ve had a case of tunnel vision in these last 5 days.
I’d be really surprised if Tracy returned. But, I was surprised when she came, so I guess we’ll see.
May 28th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
catalyst said: “It would bode well for your family and church to set up a system which allowed members to register complaints against them…”
Help Me Understand asked: Why would you do this?
Help Me Understand, I think that if this thread did not answer your question for you very clearly, you should read it again. With all due respect, if it still does not answer your question for you, then I suggest that you visit your family physician: you might be a person “without a chest” (C.S. Lewis).
May 28th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Nancy said: I’d be really surprised if Tracy returned. But, I was surprised when she came, so I guess we’ll see.
Well, it’s Wednesday now and she posted before Sunday. What happens is Sunday rolls around and everything suddenly pales in the light of what’s happening at the church. Once you are back in the fog, you can’t figure out why anything else would matter.
She probably regrets even posting here. She DID call it a ridiculous blog.
May 28th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Well, since you find the need to direct this question and comment to me. What type of system do you suggest? What type of system do you use in the house church you attend?
May 28th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Bloggers- First off i want to say how proud i am of all of you for finding your voice. I know you have all been shut up for a long time and releasing your different stories and opinions will help heal. My mother has just recently told me about the blog and since then i have pretty much filtered through everything she has written in the last three years. I am so proud of her especially when she started using her real name.
Growing up at CCC i can relate to you guys in so many ways. My method before my family left the church was hiding out in the childcare services. I could not listen to the sermons without wanting to stand up and question everything that came out of the pastors mouth. I have respect for my father who was working there at the time and could not bring myself to embarrass him like that, it was his lively hood and it had to be his decsion to make that choice and not forced by my voice. I was always the odd pk (pastors kid) the one that was not really that envolved, the one that lived in the real world, and the one that was looked down upon for it. Really i could care less of what anyone at CCC thinks of me (which i am sure they all think i am a sinner and going to hell because i dont go to church anymore) To be honest i am more spiritual now than i ever have been and it is MY spiritual journey and my choice. I am not into organized religions and to tell you the truth i don’t know if i ever will be again. This doesn’t mean i don’t have faith in God or spirituality but the idea of God has changed from someone elses views to my own. My whole vision of God has changed and its mine and it feels good to own it with everything i have NOT because i have to but because i want to. This is a new concept for me, to be honest its the first time in my life i have felt like i am walking my spiritual path and not someone elses.
Mom- No matter what happens because of this blog i will back you 100%! I love you and i am so proud that you have found your voice and yourself throught your path. Your an amazing woman and i am honored to call you mother. Thank you for showing me you can always be yourself no matter the case. I can’t wait to watch you keep growing. I love you.
Thanks again everyone… keep on keeping on!
Ashley
May 28th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Help Me Understand, let’s keep first things first: did this thread, at least partially, answer your question: “Why would you do this?” re: having a complaint system…
May 28th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Is there a need to a local church for the senior leadership to hear complaints about the church. Yes there is. Its obvious in the book of acts that a complaint came before the apsotles and they fixed it.
Acts 6:1-7
6:1 Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists murmured against the Hebrews because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution. 2 And the twelve summoned the body of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables. 3 Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this duty. 4 But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” 5 And what they said pleased the whole multitude, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Proch’orus, and Nica’nor, and Ti’mon, and Par’menas, and Nicola’us, a proselyte of Antioch. 6 These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands upon them. 7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.
RSV
Obviously they had a system for complaints. It is also obvious that they turned it over to a group of people to take care of the complaint.
Now back to my question for you:
What type of system do you suggest? What type of system do you use in the house church you attend?
9278
May 28th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Haha! Excuse the 9278-
May 28th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Ashley, thank you very much for sharing and supporting your Mom like you did; christian families need more daughters like you! many blessings to you…
May 28th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Help Me Understand, The house church that we attend does not have a formal complaint protocol. I think that most would agree that Mt. 18:15-19 would be the right place to start…
May 28th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Well now I am a little confused. You post to me: