Here is a great response by Negrodamus to the following question by blog reader "Me"regarding True and False Gospel:
Me said:
Negrodamus, (great name btw)
As a matter of curiosity, and i mean this will all due respect, what Gospel were you preaching at CBC? And I request specifics because I know the Gospel I heard preached while I was there. I know and have had very personal conversations with Pastor Frank, Doug and Donna Lasit, Ken and Glenda Malmin, Lanny Hubbard, Asim Trent, Marc Estes, Jack Louman, Brian Dahne, and many many others. Also, while at PBC and CBC, I was also in leadership in Gen Church. I never heard any Gospel that I couldn't read in the Bible. So i earnestly ask what it was you were preaching, and if you feel as though you were taught that or somehow formed it on your own. Please if you've time, explain a bit more.
Negrodamus resonponds:
I'm glad you ask. Here's what I was preaching, a gospel of works. I don't know if I can keep it anymore simple. Hence, take one of Frank Damzio's newest books, say, "The Unshakable Life" http://www.citychristianpublishing.com/books/?isbn=1-59383-039-4, the comments from Frank read as following:
This book is written for those in the trenches of real life. It is written for those who experience challenges, surprises, disappointments, successes and failures that shake up their days. It is for those who are ready to build an unshakable life-a life that is anchored, immovable and indestructable. Join with the author as he develops each one of these Seven Declarations for an Unshakable Life, based on the unshakable Word of God: I will live life strong. I will love God's house. I will hold my head high. I will have an overflowing heart. I will turn to God at all times. I will walk on a level path. I will not lose heart.
Me, do you seee what's wrong with the premise here? The onus, the weight, the burden of living an unshakable life starts with you, not Christ. Look at how many times Frank says "I will", count them, it's seven. I will live, I will love, I will hold, I will have, I will turn, I will walk, I will not lose. Do you see that? It's all about I…I…I…I… The gospel always starts with Him…Him…Him…Him… The unshakable life is not found in a set of principles, it's found in a person, JC. Now of course, you could combat this by saying "Well, Frank does talk about Jesus in the book!" Of course he does, but only as an after thought. Christ is never the hero of the book, we are. In fact, they nicknamed Frank amongst his peers as the Porcupine Preacher because he was good at giving so many points and principles. I remember listening to those sermons back in the day like "wow, how in the hell did he find so many principles in that one passage???" He would take a biblical story like David and Goliath and teach on "how to face your giants?" He would say stuff like David didn't just have one stone, he had five other stones because David had brothers. I would sit there, clutching the pew in front of me totally mezmerized as I hung on to every point Frank made. Frank would say "do you know what those five stones represented?" I would think to myself "No, but whatever they are I need them to face down my giants!"
So Frank would go on point by point, he even had sub-points within the points and I would walk out of the domes that Sunday morning with a fresh commitment to living out those points. I think if you added it all up he gave something like 15 points that morning. Then I would go next week and there would be another 15 points if you included the sub-points and by the time I finished year one of listening to Frank's sermons I had something like 720 principles or points to cultivate in my life in order to have an unshakable, over-flowing, spirit-filled, set the atmosphere, leaving my past behind me, breakthrough, successfully achieving, financially providing, leadership developing, spiritual warfaring kind of life. And the list went on and on.
After a while I would be like "how in the world can I do all this????" Christianity became too exhausting, I wondered to myself "Where is the peace and rest that Chrsitianity offered?" I weighted and burdened the youth at CBC shoulders with principles and points that were impossible to keep. To put it simply, I burdened them with the law because I didn't get the point of the law. I used the law as a system of salvation. It became my savior. If I was keeping the law, the principles and the points then I assumed I was succeeding spiritually, but if I failed at any one of those 720 points Frank preached then I was crushed spiritually and emotionally. I didn't realize that I was saved from the law and yet saved for the law. I was saved from it in the sense that I can find my rest in Christ, my perfect life is found only in him. There is nothing I can do to get God to love me more and yet there is nothing I can do to get God to love me less. He loves me period. My role is to accept His acceptance of me. I am saved by grace and changed by grace. He met every point, every principle, every standard for me, so I can get off this treadmill of works, expending energy and yet ending up nowhere. And yet on the other hand not do away with the law because it is a good guide to life.
Now, back to Frank's David and Goliath point. If he, we and all the Christianas in that building would have seen the real hero of the story that fateful morning, we would have walk out liberated, not burdened because we would have looked to Him and not ourselves to defeat our enemies. Christ stood like David as our representative, he faced down our giants when we were cowering in the hills like Israel's army defeated by our foes and He and He alone stares down, faces down or better yet beats down our ultimate enemy-sin and death. This is the heart of the gospel, not some man-centered gospel that brings into focus us when we approach a biblical text, but rather the true gospel of the bible all brings into focus Him, period. If Christ is is not the hero, than we make Him merely a helper but not a savior.
Sounds like “ME” was there around the same time I was. He knows and talked to a lot of the same peolpe I used to be friends with. Wonder if it’s someone I know…hmmmm?? Anyway, these people will always assume they are preaching the correct Gospel because that’s the life they are in everyday. If they took some time off to really discover what else is out there (like my friend ND did by going to a baptist seminary) they might find some real truth outside the domes.
I can’t tell you how many times I have heard the story of David and Goliath over the years and it’s always about what this story teaches me on what I can do to defeat my enemies, how I need to have the strength and wisdom to ward off giants in my life, and why I loose battles like this because I wasn’t prepared or ready. Then finally I realized it’s not about me at all, and the burden, distraction, and ultimate destruction of trying to be a “perfect” Christian melted off my shoulders and I was finally able to live free in Christ. Realizing that the Gospel is all about Jesus and nothing about me was the most liberating lesson of my life. Now I wake up everyday, look in the mirror and preach the Gospel to myself, which goes like this:
“You can do and say nothing that will make God love you anymore or any less. You are a chosen servant of Christ. He is your beginning and your end. There is nothing you can add or take away from His perfection. It does not matter how much you pray, read your Bible, or go to church. Christ is your center and in Him alone are you whole. Accept God’s acceptance of you – just as you are!”
“You can do and say nothing that will make God love you anymore or any less. You are a chosen servant of Christ. He is your beginning and your end. There is nothing you can add or take away from His perfection. It does not matter how much you pray, read your Bible, or go to church. Christ is your center and in Him alone are you whole. Accept God’s acceptance of you – just as you are!â€
Can you explain what you are talking about here? Because you are mixing a bunch of stuff up into one big stew:
Stew Ingredients:
1. Gods love for me
2. My love for God
3. His perfection
4. Daily Devotion
5. My wholeness
6. Gods acceptance of me just as I am.
What are you trying to get across because I am not getting it, dizzle!
HMU,
One big stew? Wow.
Everything Ex-Slave said can be backed up with Scripture. Do you really need someone to write verses next to every point he made? Please tell me you can do that yourself. I bet you can. A more important question: do you believe the truths (which comprise the Gospel) that Ex-Slave articulated in his paraphrase of many Scriptures? I truly hope that you do.
As for me, I believe those truths intellectually, and they frequently pay visits to my heart, but I cannot say, sadly, that they reside permanently in my heart. Christ does. But, given my sinful, self-oriented human nature and far too many years in legalism, it is hard to believe deep down that all of things are true.
Wow. Everything in that paragraph is related. I think that is about as clear and simple as you can get. I don’t get where HMU is confused.
HMU, what are we going to do with you? If you don’t get this, then you haven’t got the Gospel plain and simple. Took me a long time to break free from a gospel of works to a Gospel of truth as well. I will pray for you.
Pony, I know exactly what your talking about. It is a struggle for me at times to, but as the years pass and I get further and further away from my former life of legalism Christ becomes more and more real to me and the truths of true grace go deeper and deeper into my heart. Only thing I would say is continue to preach the Gospel to yourself, stay away from MFI type churches, and ask God to continue to show you how it’s ok to be human.
Thanks, JT. I would second that.
“HMU, what are we going to do with you? If you don’t get this, then you haven’t got ########## plain and simple. Took me a long time to break free from a gospel of works to a Gospel of truth as well. I will pray for you.”
Ok my friend. Why dont you tell me ########## in a plain and simple way. I would be interested to take a bite of ############# of Love Stew” you have cooked up.
[Comment ID #33218 Will Be Quoted Here]
Do we earn Gods love-of course not. He loved us while we were still sinners. God so loved the world He gave His Son Jesus to die for the whole world. Will the whole world go to heaven? No. BUT, God still loves them. Reading my bible, praying, going to church is not for God to love me. Maybe it helps me to love Him?
I think it all boils down to what a person believes is the truth about salvation. There are a lot of views about that subject. Churches build their whole ministries off of their views of salvation.
Personally, I do not believe a person is necessarily born again when they pray the cute little 12 sec prayer and fill out the nice altar card. Can they be? I believe they can be. How do we know they have been?
I know so many people that have gone to an altar prayed the “sinner’s prayer” and no more born again then a person that has never done that.
It’s not all on God and it’s not all on us. God has a role we have a role as well. Do you really believe that we have no responsibility to change? How do we change? Do we need to change? Why do we need to change?
I just think it is dangerous just to tell people the “Gods Love story”…it’s not the whole truth.
What part do you think it is, exactly, that is “on us” as far as salvation goes?
In other words, Paul & Silas told the jailer (who had just witnessed a mighty act of God in Acts 16 and he asked “what must I do to be saved? —a VERY specific question indeed)….anyway, Paul and Silas told the in verse 31, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
What part do you think it is, exactly, that is “on us” as far as salvation goes?
In other words, Paul & Silas told the jailer (who had just witnessed a mighty act of God in Acts 16 and he asked “what must I do to be saved? —a VERY specific question indeed)….anyway, Paul and Silas told the in verse 31, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
My bad…spelling/grammar error….Paul told the jailer to believe in the Lord Jesus. Besides having faith in Christ, what other requirements for salvation did Paul place on the jailer?
At first glance when you hear the gospel it sounds too good to be true. Throughout church history we have tried to tame the gospel, dumb it down, neuter it, put boundaries around it because at the end of the day we want to be in charge–i.e. Adam & Eve eating the forbidden fruit. Our first parents wanted to assume control over their lives or better yet save themselves. I have found in Christendom that many of us don’t want a ‘Savior’, we want a ‘helper’, kind of that ‘if I take one step then God takes two or God helps those who helps themselves’ brand of Chrsitianity. The Gospel is about a Savior who saves the unsavable, the person who has no goodness, no righteousness and no ability of their own to make themselves right before God.
I remember arguing with a good friend over the gospel and he was a little miffed at me for telling him that he did not get it. Our exchanges over coffee grew more and more intense as I explained why he didn’t get it, but in the heat of the moment I think I was able to get to the heart of it. Here’s what I did, I posed a question to him, I said “How are you and your wife doing?” Unbeknownst to Him, I was setting him up, so he launched into the doting husband mode declaring his love for her, that things have never been better, that they were connecting on a whole nother level, that their understanding each other has created greater communication between them and so on and so forth…
Then I ask him how was his relationship with God was doing, he then paused, reflected a moment and said “ya know, I really need to improve my relationship with Him. I mean I have not spent alot of time in the bible, my prayer life sucks, I could get a little more consistent with my church attendance and I really thinking about plugging into the this accountability group…” and at that point I stopped him. I said “look, do you see what your doing?” he was like “what? what I am I doing?” I said “when I ask how you and your wife were doing you spoke in intimate, relational language. When I ask you how you were doing with God, you spoke in transactional language. On the one hand you talk about how you loved your wife, that things were never better, that the communication was deeper and yet when you talked about God it’s all about what you needed to be doing to please God.”
I think that is how the human heart works, it is always trying earn favor with God. Most Christian I know, including myself really have more of a transactional relationship rather than a deep, intimate, heart-felt relationship with God. We are constantly trying to prove our worth, value and significance to Him. This is why our anger at God betrays us, because when we work for Him and He does not perform for us, we get bitter at Him because at the core of our hearts when the relationship is transactional all we up doing is putting Him in our debt because we assume He owes us.
The gospel is counter-intuitive, i.e…you want to live, then die…you want to be first, then be last…ascension requires descension…serve, not be served… The gospel cuts across the grain of our hearts, it says in Romans 5 even when we were enemies of God He demonstrated His love toward us by dying for us. This means even when we were hostile, indifferent, hardened and for some sneering at Him he loved us, died for us, all unconditionally, not transactionally. Out of His love toward us we can now serve Him out of love, not merely out of obedience to the law, we can serve Him out of sheer devotion and not duty, we can love Him freely because He first loved us having met all the requirements of that love in Himself through the cross-THAT’S THE GOSPEL!
WOW, ND…that is one of the most touching things I’ve read in a long time. Spoke to my heart, brother!
And you even threw in a Eugene Strothers “whole notha lebel” in there for me!! Loved it!
Thanks so much for sharing.
Please do, it’s the greatest gift a person can ever receive…accepting the love of Jesus Christ into their lives.
You see this is where I completely disagree, and where many churches have missed the mark. How can it not all be on God? Why would Jesus go to the cross if we had anything to do with it? If we follow your logic, Jesus didn’t have to die.
I don’t believe this either, because again that would be putting it on the person to do an act of works for salvation. However, if that person has a genuine heart change and desire to know and serve Christ, then yes, they are born again – in Christ.
No, we have a responsibility to serve Christ and the change comes from doing that. We can’t force change on ourselves or others, we have to let God bring the change to our hearts. I’m not sure if you are married or have kids, but I do and I love my wife and daughter so much that I do everything in my power to honor and serve them. I don’t want to hurt them. When I mess up and sin against them I “change my ways” out of love and gratitude for having them in my life, not out of duty because I am their husband and father. My relationship with the person of Christ is much the same. He already covered my sins, washed me clean as snow and gave me the grace and mercy I didn’t deserve. Now I grow and change in Him for Him because of Him. BUT I do this out of the love and affection I have for Him for what He did for me on the cross, not out of duty and service of what a “good” Christian is suppose to do. As the scriptures say my righteous acts are filthy rags in His eyes. So the truth of the Gospel is that it’s all about Him and nothing about you! In my eyes it is arrogant to believe otherwise.
None in my book (which is my Bible)
Negrodamus,
When’s your book coming out?
Grey Sheep said:
I think you and I have way too much time on our hands. Only another Eugene Strothers fan would catch that.
RP:
No lie this time, I am almost half way there. I’m working with Don M. on the project.
[Comment ID #33241 Will Be Quoted Here]
Wow. I liked that.
[Comment ID #33239 Will Be Quoted Here]
Salvation: nothing its all on Him. BUT, we do play a role in sanctification. Do you not agree?
Jesus when picking His disciples and in other places in ########### told people to forsake everything to follow Him. We hear this very little in the pulpits that I have been around.
I could and I am probably mixing up a bunch of stuff into one conversation!
Hahahaha… ex-City Bible Slave I am making my own stew!
Ex-City Bible Slave wrote:
“You see this is where I completely disagree, and where many churches have missed the mark. How can it not all be on God? Why would Jesus go to the cross if we had anything to do with it? If we follow your logic, Jesus didn’t have to die”
I see what you are saying. I think we agree on more things then we dont. Except for the way you spell “dog” that was a joke..so dont get upset!
“How are you righteous before God?†– The Heidelberg Catechism
60. Q. How are you righteous before God?
A. Only by true faith in Jesus Christ.[1] Although my conscience accuses me that I have grievously sinned against all God’s commandments, have never kept any of them,[2] and am still inclined to all evil,[3] yet God, without any merit of my own,[4] out of mere grace,[5] imputes to me the perfect satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ.[6] He grants these to me as if I had never had nor committed any sin, and as if I myself had accomplished all the obedience which Christ has rendered for me,[7] if only I accept this gift with a believing heart.[8]
[1] Rom. 3:21-28; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 3:8-11. [2] Rom. 3:9, 10. [3] Rom. 7:23. [4] Deut. 9:6; Ezek. 36:22; Tit. 3:4, 5. [5] Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8. [6] Rom. 4:3-5; II Cor. 5:17-19; I John 2:1, 2. [7] Rom. 4:24, 25; II Cor. 5:21. [8] John 3:18; Acts 16:30, 31; Rom. 3:22.
[Comment ID #33241 Will Be Quoted Here]
Simple, powerful, truth. Beautiful comment.
Mike Herron???? As in MFI Pastor Mike Herron????
Negrodamus said:
Neg: I printed out your whole post as well as the original one on this thread because this is truly the heart of the matter in becoming undone from legalism. When I and others have mentioned needing to be healed and the process that it takes, what you have said here is the wonderful goal! I’m taping it to my closet wall for awhile as a reminder!
The Holy Spirit is fully capable of healing us in an instant, but for some reason, He has chosen to make it a process when it comes to getting the legalistic gospel out and replacing it with the gospel of grace. Or at least that is how He seems to be working in us here in Boise, but even then everyone is on an individual path.
It’s a renewing of the mind and heart — and in some ways at first it felt like ground zero or first grade all over again. Lowly but surely, the Lord is retraining us to accept his grace, yet it can’t be done by our own power. It seems to be coming only by yielding to the grace and accepting the process. We may not understand why He’s doing it this way or why it is taking as much time as it has so far. We have become willing to do, or not do, anything to be free of the works of legalism! A gospel of works seeps subtely into your being unnoticed and you really think you are pleasing God in living up to all the stuff piled onto you. But the fruit of it is you feel you are never quite pleasing God, never doing enough works, and you find it easy to judge others by the same standards you are trying to reach. Wow, who would have thought that the very Word of God that can be LIFE to us can also be a TRAP of legalism?
What kind of retraining is necessary? It’s certainly not sitting in church meetings 2 or 3 times a week. Here are a few things we are finding helpful and I’m happy to say it’s not 15 points:
1. When you do listen to a teacher let it be a teacherwho speaks about grace often with the practical application of the Bible — i.e. how to apply that grace to your everyday life.
2. Take a Sunday off from church when you feel led! Having the freedom not to go to church when I sense it’s completely out of obligation has been so helpful to me. If I need to sit one out I do and listen to Bob on TV, play my piano before the Lord and what not. A lot of Christians may not understand it but oh well. When I do go the next Sunday it’s in joyful worship to the Lord and to be strengthened in my faith. You just have to listen to the HS for that day. I’ve found that when I fight against the peace and do the obligation thing, it doesn’t go well anyway.
3. Share your heart and life with someone who understands your path and has proven their trust. No need to tell every Christian what you are going through unless the Holy Spirit opens a door to share. What other Christians don’t know won’t hurt them. If you share too readily then prepared for the slime of Christianese jargon and platitudes that tell you how offended you are and how you need to forgive. We already KNOW that we are in the process of forgiveness. Anyhoo, why set yourself up for disaster, just be discerning.
The Lord’s patience and love is so amazing. He’s not in a hurry, even if we are. He really meant it in Hebrews 4 when he speaks of entering into the sabbath rest. If we want to please God, then to enter that rest is the way and it’s such a relief to at last learn to walk with HIM in true peace without fear!
[Comment ID #33271 Will Be Quoted Here]
Jr.
[Comment ID #33274 Will Be Quoted Here]
Is your dad still in the music ministry? So talented!
Mikey, your Dad prophesied over me during my presbytery (sp?) YEARS ago. I remember pulling him down by his tie (because I was kneeling, of course) to ask him about something he said during his prophesying. In hindsight, I can’t believe I did that! Probably caught him completely off guard. But, he was prophesying in detail about my future husband, and I was engaged at the time and HAD TO KNOW whether or not he was describing my fiance. He told me to talk that over with my pastor. Which I did. Turns out the man he described was NOT my fiance. So, I broke it off and married someone else, quite a few years later, who actually is quite a bit like the man your Dad described. So, God used him, along with several others, to get it through my thick skull that THAT guy (former fiance) was not the one for me. Anyway, that’s my main memory of your Dad.
I hope you are well. I can only imagine what it might have been like, growing up with an MFI pastor Dad. I have lots of PK and MK friends.
Nancy Kelley said:
I sat out 4 years of church. I know that may challenge the prevailing wisdom of Christendom, but to be honest I absolutely needed it. It kind of re-tooled and refreshed me spiritually. I had been in full-time ministry for 14 years and grew weary of being a “paid” or “professional” Christian. So I left the church and took my family on Sunday’s to the beach, park, movies, hiking, etc… In that 4 years I wrestled with alot of questions, gospel-centered questions like:
#1 what does the church look like when you don’t need the church? I mean once you realize God accepts you whether you go to church or not, How do you interact with her? Does the gospel speak to this reality?
#2 What does money look like when your no longer beholden to it? If Christ is truly my source then why am I either ‘obsessed with it’ and ‘afraid of it’ at the same time? Is the gospel and money compatible?
#3 what does marriage look like when I no longer require of my wife to meet in me what only Christ can? Is there a gospel answer for this?
#4 How do I serve without being self-serving? I’m like CS Lewis here, he said something to the effect that most of my time is spent figuring out ways to sound dazzling before my students and then once I realize what I’m doing, I catch myself and then of course I must repent for feeling good about catching myself.
#5 Why in the world does my Christianity seemed to be less consistent and more inconsistent the older I get in the Lord?
and the questions continue…
Mikey Herron JR, I kinda remember you, but mainly your dad. What are you doing these days? How did you find your way to this god-forsaken site???
Yes.
I don’t remember how I stumbled on to the site, but it was a couple of years ago and I’ve been a regular reader ever since.
I’m Ace Freeley in a KISS cover band called Smooching Beth.
Is the KISS covermband a full time gig? If so, I have some new ideas for my own employment.
[Comment ID #33283 Will Be Quoted Here]
I was being facetious. The irony of that statement, if true, was probably not lost on the BT old-timers though.
From a “BT Oldtimer”. . I got it.
Where is your dad and mom these days?
Maybe I should have posted my original thought about the KISS cover band which was suggesting that we form additional bands with a few other posters on the site.
Trying to be funny…but wasn’t
Why form more than one KISS cover band, when you can just telecast the one to other venues / jumbotrons. Imagine Gene Simmons in HD. Cool.
BTW Fred, do you know where a guy can get a good bronto burger these days?
‘Scrupe
No. Not another Kiss band but other groups. A punk band (Clash), new wave group (Duran Duran), maybe even a rap group. Negrodamus could be Chuck D for a Public Enemy thing.
Ah … at my age and girth, I’d be Randy Bachman.
Hello everyone,
I discovered this blog a few months back and have been absolutely slack-jawed in how wonderful a tool it is; emotional and intellectual conflict has been expressed both succinctly and respectively (aside a few marginal quips) towards some very serious issues.
The reason the blog initially caught my eye is that I immediately recognized names and references to people that I knew in my youth. Some of you I might have known back in the Bible Temple days; those who support the blog as well as condemn it.
This is an open invitation to anyone “back in the day” who is interested in chatting old times and getting reaquainted. Kmarie asked about Mike Herron…and, well…that got me thinking. I’d like to know how certain folks are doing these days.
Please feel free to contact me.
Steve Adams
agtrguy@aol.com