Do long sermons make men hate church?
Posted on June 10th, 2008 by catalyst into the Christian Pop Culture categoryMultnomah School of the Bible's student newspaper The Voice interviews author David Murrow, asking why men don't attend church.
the Voice: How can preaching be improved to attract men to church?
Murrow: Make it shorter. One of the main complaints that men have with church is that the sermons are long and boring. The average parable of Jesus takes 38 seconds to preach. Why does it take a preacher 30 minutes or an hour?
And then the other thing you can do is use a strong visual or object-lesson component every time you enter the pulpit. When Jesus taught, he often used a prop, like a coin or a sheep or some wheat. We need to recover visual preaching because that's what Jesus did.
Is there anything in the structure and organization of the service that could be improved to appeal to men?
Men like a service that is vertical-focused, focused more on God. A lot of churches have a horizontal focus, where the focus is on the people; people stand up and share prayer requests, for example. Men usually hate that.
If your worship service reflects "God is my buddy," then you're going to attract more women. If your God is a little more remote, absolute, powerful and mighty, then you are going to attract more men.
What style would appeal to men?
The focus on a mission. One hundred years ago, preachers talked about our mission. Today they talk about a personal relationship with Jesus. If that's the punch line of the gospel, then you're going to have more women than men responding because women are all about relationships.
How does church music affect men?
We used to have hymns, which were pretty well-suited to the masculine heart; they talked about battle and blood and victory. Today we have praise and worship choruses, which I call "Jesus is my boyfriend music." We use words that no man would dare say to another, and yet we ask men every week to express their love to God using these very romantic words.
How can churches change?
It's a long process. You have to disciple your men first. But once thy have roots, then you can start offering them ministries oriented toward their tastes.
What should churches do to make boys grow up to love going to church?
We really start losing boys in Sunday school. The behaviors we value in Sunday school are sit still, listen, memorize and verbalize. The verbal centers of a girl's brain mature about 18 months ahead of those of a boy's. So if we have a highly verbal, reading, memorize-type Sunday school, who is going to do better? The way you retain boys in Sunday school is you give them a chance to win, to perform as well as the girls.
I am a big believer in making church shorter. This is primarily because I am an impatient person, but also, because I rarely listened to a long sermon that I thought couldn't have been covered in 15 minutes. I used to say a silent prayer of thanks every morning for Children's church, because the only reason Pastor Frank wouldn't go long some Sunday's was so that the four-year-olds in Childrens church wouldn't go crazy and take over the place.
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June 10th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
I am a big believer in making church shorter.
I’m with you. There are, however, few things your typical pastor, or lay leader, enjoys more than an open microphone. Perhaps we should start a movement to flash the lights when the pastor’s set has gone on long enough. It works at the club.
June 10th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
“Today we have praise and worship choruses, which I call “Jesus is my boyfriend music.”
Why does everyone act like they’re the only ones that call modern worship choruses “Jesus is my boyfriend music”? Seriously. Every single person I talk to acts like they came up with this witty term for shitty worship music. “Jesus is my boyfriend!”
STOP CLAIMING THAT LINE! I don’t know who originally came up with it, but every time someone says it they sound like Peggy Hill.
That is all.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:08 am
Does anyone here feel that church often exists for the sake of church? Every week in order to make people feel like they are still Christians they must complete the following tasks:
1. Sing 3+ songs
2. Preach for a minimum of 25 minutes
3. Allow the congregation a time donate their money
4. Communion
The problem then becomes
ROUTINE: Everyone goes through the motions without much meaning
or
RELIGION: If you miss a week of any of these things you don’t feel connected to God.
I know my problem is that I am not much of a people person. Many come to church for a connection with others while I spend most Sundays trying to avoid talking to people that I hardly know (Its also why I hate traditional cell groups).
I feel fortunate to attend a church where the teaching is typically great. So even if i’m going through the motions of the service I can take some lesson from the preaching.
June 11th, 2008 at 9:07 am
RP, I agree with your statement “Does anyone here feel that church often exists for the sake of church?” I think that is so true. I have attended many churches that made me feel that exact way.
For me church is a place I go to connect with Christ. With the pressures of my life it’s the one place I find peace.
I am a people person and love connecting with people but I don’t necessarily feel that I have to engage with the people from my church and I often come to church and leave without talking to anyone. (which is fine)
If there was no preaching that would be fine for me too as I love the praise and worship. Many churches that I have attended have bored me to tears when it came time for preaching. To find a church that you can actually get something out of the service is a rare gem.
And btw I have been attending your church, I love it so far and CJ is a great speaker.
K
June 11th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Burn the pews; bring in round tables and chairs; set a big loaf of bread and carafe of wine on every table - maybe some cheese and deli meats as well; eat, talk, enjoy one another.
Worship has become a ‘ceremony’ and men generally hate ceremonies.
I always kinda thought it would be cool for the pastor to shut the heck up and have a “let’s hear from the epistles of Christ” time of sharing …
Among the interesting reads I’ve seen on the web, are papers that advocate more of a Q&A type approach between the preachers / teachers and listeners … in fact, the current “pastor preaches the sermon” approach may not even be Biblical … where pastor is ’shepherd’ who simply comes alongside a believer who is growing in Christ, to befriend and encourage, not to preach to …
Consider the 5 fold ministry of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher … which if any of these ever preached a 20-60 minute sermon following 20-60 minutes of “Jesus is my boyfriend” music to the rockin’ gyrations of a W&P band?
From the W&P band perspective, near the end (when I quit) worship felt more and more like a warm-up for the pastor’s sermon and offering - or so it seemed from the pastor’s ever-tightening requirements for worship (20 minutes, 4-5 songs everyone knows, 3 reps each, and get off the stage) … in fact, I’ve been in situations where the pastor interrupted the worship with his sermon - like he got so worked up during worship, or became jealous of the devotion, he abruptly cut off worship to preach …
June 12th, 2008 at 8:10 am
“in fact, the current “pastor preaches the sermon” approach may not even be Biblical”
What about all the places in the NT where there was one person preaching to the whole crowds? Is that not a pastor or preacher preaching a sermon?
June 12th, 2008 at 8:38 am
Perhaps we should examine those ‘places’, HMU. I don’t think we would find anyplace where the ushers stood as armed guards to the door of a dedicated preaching room, where the listeners were gagged by the house rules / traditions … I think we’d see it was more Q&A / realtime / interactive than the prepared monologues of today … in Q&A format, it seems more likely that we would see Jesus at work in the speaker - see the gifts at work - but in the monologue format there is little / no room for God to move by responding to the heart / questions of the listeners …
Likewise, sometimes that ‘preaching’ is not done before gathered crowds, but simple 1:1 … and sometimes that ‘preaching’ was no more than telling another that Jesus is the Son of God who was raised from the dead … not a sermon - rather, as one of the greek roots suggests, being a ‘town crier’ or ‘announcer’ of the good news. Preaching is ‘testifying’ and we all do that through the sharing of our testimony about Jesus … who says that preaching is exclusively the pastor’s job? And where there are 5 ministry ‘positions’ listed in the 5-fold of Ephesians, and where the example of scripture is of the apostles preaching, how has the job of ‘preaching’ come to mean the pastor’s sermon? Who gave exclusive license to pastors to preach?
June 12th, 2008 at 9:21 am
“Perhaps we should examine those ‘places’, HMU. I don’t think we would find anyplace where the ushers stood as armed guards to the door of a dedicated preaching room, where the listeners were gagged by the house rules / traditions ”
What house rules are you talking about?
“Likewise, sometimes that ‘preaching’ is not done before gathered crowds, but simple 1:1 … and sometimes that ‘preaching’ was no more than telling another that Jesus is the Son of God who was raised from the dead … not a sermon - rather, as one of the greek roots suggests, being a ‘town crier’ or ‘announcer’ of the good news. Preaching is ‘testifying’ and we all do that through the sharing of our testimony about Jesus”
sometimes it was people standing up and communicating to whole crowds or out in a boat speaking to the crowd or people gathering in a house and listending to what was being said. Jesus didnt just speak to people one on one. He spoke to crowds, groups, a few, one on one etc.
I agree that our testimoney is probably the most overlooked form of preaching.
“Who gave exclusive license to pastors to preach? ”
Nobody..go preach. Who is stopping people from preaching? Are you suggesting that people should be able to walk into whatever church they want and preach?
June 12th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Do you work at being dull or does it just come naturally, HMFMB?
You answered your own question here:
If every believer present in the assembly of the saints can NOT stand and speak under the Spirit’s leading (1 Corinthians 14:26), then there’s a ‘house rule / tradition’ in the way.
Try this next time you “go to church”, HMFMB - stand up and testify - IF the church is following 1 Corinthians 14, the current speaker should yield to permit the Lord’s testimony … better yet, the next time the pastor calls for the tithe, why don’t you call him out for preaching false doctrine?
June 12th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
“What house rules are you talking about?”
Why dont you answer the very easy question?
“HMFMB?”
So what does this stand for?
“Try this next time you “go to church”, HMFMB - stand up and testify - IF the church is following 1 Corinthians 14, the current speaker should yield to permit the Lord’s testimony … better yet, the next time the pastor calls for the tithe, why don’t you call him out for preaching false doctrine?”
1. Will we let everyone that wants to stand up and testify go ahead and do that? Is that what you suggest? Maybe they use 1 Cor 14:40 as a guide, ever thought of that?
Since you want to bring up 1 Cor 14. Should we follow 1 Cor 14:34-35 as well? I mean if we are going to let anyone that happens to make their way into the pews stand up and say what they want. We better keep those girls mouths shut? Dont you think?
June 13th, 2008 at 6:05 am
What are you here for, Jared? This is a place where people have (generally) left MFI churches and desire to talk about the abuses common among them. Clearly you are sold out to MFI - are you the web master for http://www.cowlitzvalley.org ?
I’m getting real tired of your “playing dumb” routine here.
About the girls, Karen and I were talking on the way home. Scripture is clear that there were 120 in the upper room at Pentecost, among them several women. ALL were filled with the Holy Spirit and tongues and ALL of them went down into the streets to preach the gospel. Therefore I believe Paul’s admonition concerning women, which we have discussed here many times before (and you KNOW that) has to do with a cultural problem in Corinth with women coming out of pagan religion and shrine temple prostitution, their general disrespect for men, etc.
So I just drove through Castle Rock last Saturday, Jared. Had to laugh about the “big” MFI prosperity church founded there … CBC wannabe’s, eh?
Sam
June 13th, 2008 at 6:06 am
OH - HMFMB = Help Me Find My Brain
June 13th, 2008 at 8:02 am
Sam wrote:
“What are you here for, Jared?”
I enjoy the talk, debate, reasoning and the challenge by some of what I have read.
“Clearly you are sold out to MFI - are you the web master for http://www.cowlitzvalley.org ? ”
Heck no! I can almost barely figure this thing out. Actually I am the associate pastor.
“So I just drove through Castle Rock last Saturday, Jared. Had to laugh about the “big” MFI prosperity church founded there … CBC wannabe’s, eh?”
Ya, we have a wonderful building and property that is debt free. We met at the castle rock high school for ten years and built the building four years ago. Why dont you stop by sometime and we can mee?
Why was the reason that you would put my email? It clearly says
Will *not* be displayed publicly.
June 13th, 2008 at 8:09 am
[…] In the thread Do long sermons make men hate church, the following exchange has taken place: Sam: If every believer present in the assembly of the saints can NOT stand and speak under the Spirit’s leading (1 Corinthians 14:26), then there’s a ‘house rule / tradition’ in the way. What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. (1 Corinthians 14:26 NIV) Help Me Understand: What house rules are you talking about? … Will we let everyone that wants to stand up and testify go ahead and do that? Is that what you suggest? Maybe they use 1 Cor 14:40 as a guide, ever thought of that? But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. (1 Corinthians 14:40 NIV) […]
June 13th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Your email was not published.
Admittedly, your adversarial nature is getting old for me. Your posts suggested long before I looked you up, that you are an MFI supporter or pastor here to defend MFI, obfuscate issues and discredit people in some cases. I’m not interested in posting ’specifics’ - I’m just saying that’s the feeling I’ve been left with after a couple months of reading your posts. Where the posters here are concerned, I have little tolerance for those who come here to incite, discredit, etc., esp. where they are advocates / supporters of the very religious system people here have fled.
Sam
June 13th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Fair enough. I will no longer post on this blog.
jared
June 13th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
With all of the talk about being like the NT biblical church, do we realize they had “services” that lasted many hours and so were able to include all of the aspects of a “church service” in one meeting.
I don’t think we can have our cake and eat it too on this one.
Yes, there is much room for improvememt, but what does the Word say about how we should be “doing” church. And how are we missing it. That should be the question not polling a certain target audiance. Because then we function according to surveys and not necessarily the Word.
June 13th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Hey JJ,
You are asking the million dollar question … “how do we do church”?
The answer to that depends on how you interpret Matthew 16:18.
If you believe Jesus meant:
“…upon this federal currency note I will build my 501-c3 non-profit religious organization complete with a deep clergy / laity division and a hierarchical authority structure lifted from the finest managerial flow-charts the corporate world has to offer …”
Did Jesus offer “co-designer” positions to the twelve standing there? How about co-architect, or co-engineer? HE said HE would build it. HE is the cornerstone in the foundation.
JJ, i don”t think what we call the “church” looks anything like what Jesus started with the early church. It has nothing much to do with 21st century culture. Man has taken over with what he thinks is a “better idea” than what Jesus and the apostles started and man bastardized it!
Remember truth in these types of questions is directly related to the PERSON of CHRIST not a system or a program or a method.
Jesus ekklesia is not a place you go, it is who you are … if you are part of the redeemed community. YOU are no less the church if you are not in a building.
Good Questions
ICE
June 13th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Sam,
Q: what is this? 1 ………. 2 …………….. 3 ………….4 ………………. 5…
A: The standing eight- count you just gave jared
You gotta do what you gotta do.
I’m sure the that those who have been abused by those “skilled in the art of over-lording” are cheering.
ICE
June 14th, 2008 at 7:23 am
jeremiah johnson,
Here is an interesting read that might answer a few of your questions pertaining to “how do we DO church”.
http://khtmin.org/images/teaching_docs/house_church_docs/is_church_a _meeting.pfd
June 14th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Ya know, I think HMU was done wrong here.
Is he playing dumb? Probably. From what I have read, he is not being rude. At the point that he gets shut down and attacked, this site becomes just like the system that folks are fleeing from. Are the posters here willing to become a bit tyrannical towards those whom we disagree with? I think tyrannical is an overstatement but I am not sure what other word to use.
Personally, I am not here to commiserate over the woes of being a former MFI church member. I am here for the theological debates that occur. The wrangling over particular individuals is not as helpful for me as discussing the issues that situations in the MFI churches brought up. If your argument is stronger then just let it be. I know that I am surely in the minority on that which is OK with me. I am just giving one man’s opinion.
June 14th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
To clarify, I appreciate my anonymity on this site. To have that breached would be a big deal to me. I would feel that I was treated underhandedly.
No, his email was not given but you pretty much said that HMU is __________. I am pretty sure that is not the spirit of the statement “email will not be displayed publicly.” Again, we are all looking for honesty and transparency in our faith walks and the churches we attend. If that is where this site is coming from let’s actually be that. You could have simply asked or claimed that he was a “mole” and waited for a response. In the end, he had no problem denying who he was.
As a newbie on this site, HMU’s opposition/questions have been helpful for me. I am getting to see different positions/facets/dimensions on many issues. I used the word “bitter” in my first post here and was blasted. I have also fallen into a few other linguistic potholes and was blasted. The problem seems to be that many are tired of fighting the same battles. Well, some of us are on a journey and not in a battle. We take a step on the road and start getting shot at. If HMU or others are “spying” or defending then give them a reasoned response. The following scripture comes to mind.
2 Timothy 2:23-26
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. NKJV
To be honest, my other problem is that my wife keeps saying to me, “There is too much of a gossipy nature to that site.” I hate when I log off of the site and feel that she may be right. Obviously, I’m still here. Why? Because there are some great discussions that are truly uplifting and challenging to my understanding of how I think about and live out my faith.
June 15th, 2008 at 7:33 am
FF,
I’m certain when the 1 Corinthians 5 situation happened, wherein Paul told the church at Corinth to expel the immoral brother, there were those who agreed and disagreed with Paul. I do not believe a church like the one at Corinth followed Paul’s instructions without debate … I have no quams about your disagreement Fred - the fact is, the real Church can be quite messy at times when we are trying to live together, when we do “speak the truth in love”, when we share one another’s burdens, when we confront someone who has sinned against us … the IC has for centuries insulated us from the reality of relational Christianity by silencing the lambs and letting only the pastor/king speak, who tells us what to say (turn to your neighbor and say “yabba dabba do!”) - who tells us what to believe through his weekly monologue (sermon).
So finally, believers begin to reject the ‘pastor/king’ authority rule over their lives and faith practice, and begin to walk in ’sonship’ according to the Spirit’s leading and scripture - endeavoring to “do the word” with their brethren. So, BEING the church means we’ll see conflict - we’ll see people say what they really think and feel - hopefully with grace. We don’t ignore the proverbial “elephant in the room” anymore - we call it for what it is and deal with it. Personally, I think the call to “sonship” means growing up, maturing, learning to be relational again - to be reconciled to one another just as we are reconciled to God in Christ. In the same way we have to put aside pretense with God and confess our sins against God, we have to put aside our pretense and confess our sins to one another. It can be beautiful and at the same time ugly - depending on your perspective.
That said, I did not tell Jared to leave the blog. I told him how his posts made me feel - the impression he has made upon me after some 150 posts over the last few months. I’ve discerned the ‘cat and mouse’ type q&a game he’s been playing and told him it annoys me. And where there are a considerable (majority) number of posters on this blog who have been deeply hurt by MFI practices and practitioners (pastors and churches), who post their own experiences, hurts, feelings & discernment here, I don’t think it’s right that someone who is an MFI pastor, supporter, defendent, can come in here with anonymity / impunity and *in some cases*, belittle, discredit and chastise them.
I look at it this way. Frank, Wendell, Judah, would NOT for one second tolerate someone coming into the midst of their meeting and calling them out on what they’ve done, what they preach as they maintain an ownership and control of their meetings to ensure an environment of loyalty and agreement / compliance. That I am aware, NO ONE on this blog has EVER barged in on an MFI meeting and confronted any of the brothers who have sinned against them and called them out, publicly.
So, why should card-carrying MFI members be allowed to come in here and call out people here?
IF you will re-read what I wrote to Jared, you will see that I did NOT ask him to leave; but only put him on notice that where he represents (and defends) what people here have “fled”, I have little tolerance for any behavior that might inflict more heartache on the people here.
Jared chose to leave on his own - he could have said he’d be sensitive to the posters here which would have demonstrated his sincerity, or, he could leave, and we have to draw our own conclusions about his purpose in being here.
Sam
June 15th, 2008 at 8:05 am
Because it makes for good blogging. Besides, if all we do is surround ourselves with people who agree with us we will end up just like MFI. I like the wide range of opinions we attract here…of course I’m also an ex-homeschooler (maybe my lack of social skills has something to do with it).
June 15th, 2008 at 8:32 am
RF,
Thank you. That is a big part of what I am trying to say. Some people here often operate just like the MFI systems they have left. Humility and relationships are two things folks here seem to be striving for. The treatment of HMU did not seem to foster either.
Samaritan. I did not say or imply that you kicked him off the site. You also did not address the integrity issues that I raised.
In 1 Corinthians 5 the guy was having sex with his stepmother. Connecting HMU’s presence on this page to that is…is….is. Man I don’t even know what to call that. Again, talk about twisting a scripture to make it say what you want it to say.
Be wary of collateral damage as you shoot at folks. Honestly, I feel less safe here than I did 24 hours ago. I am not in a war, I’m on a journey but I have been hit by “friendly” fire taking groceries to the store in a matter of speaking.
June 15th, 2008 at 10:25 am
FF, you missed my point. I did NOT connect Jared’s actions to the actions of the man in 1 Cor. 5 … my illustration was of Paul who took an action in a church where disagreement and factions were commonplace and who certainly debated Paul’s instruction before carrying them out, if they did carry them out.
FF, you seem to want to take offense. I did not twist scripture and you know it. You have read my other posts, my witness(es). How can you make a claim like that with the other things I have posted?
RP, if “good blogging” is the goal, why not invite Cowboy, Havis, etc. back?
Then the blog can rage in debate between the Cowboy’s/Havis’s and the most vocal few, while the folks who just need to talk and vent about MFI’s sins against them dive in the trenches. Then when the trolls tire and leave or are evicted, the blog becomes safe again for awhile for people to talk - that is, until another troll comes along …
Sam
June 15th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Sam: Yes. I am offended that you called him out by name. You could have challenged him without looking up his info or mentioning him by name. We should have the freedom here to operate anonymously. Our posts and the thoughts in them are fair game but your actions went beyond that. If one’s persons rights are breached it affects everyone.
I am a bit fired up about this because I am still tight with a bunch of MFI guys. I am here to figure some stuff out. I can’t ask my questions if I feel that I could be outed. If you don’t see any problem with how you acted, I may need to find another place to go. Who might be next if they cross the line too often? I may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater a bit but my anonymity is important to me at this point.
So that is why I am offended.
June 15th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
I can appreciate that, Fred. But I do not feel I’m the one to be addressed about “integrity” - there are people here who share very openly and vulnerably and the safety of that is has never been compromised. They do not need to be made to feel ‘unsafe’ themselves by someone masquerading as a brother, who belittles, asks incessant inane questions and appears not to consider their answers before asking more questions, nor seems to take into account persons cumulative posts / participation here.
Anyway, sorry you are offended, but offense is a matter you decide to either take up or not. In the 3 years I’ve been here, there’s been a parade of trolls and trollish behavior wherein the blog seems to take on different personalities dependent on the presence or absence of trolls. When the trolls leave, people start posting again - when the trolls start up again, the blog takes on a less safe (for personal sharing) / argumentative air. If you look above your post, you’ll see another member, IC Emancipated, who seemed to have discernment about HMU like I did …
As for calling him out, Jesus did not hesitate to call ‘em as he sees ‘em with regard to the pharisees and teachers of the law who dogged Him and those who followed him - nor does the shepherd allow the wolves to stalk the sheep …
Sam
June 15th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Sam
I don’t want to be third man in or anything (I think it’s a 5 minute major, or game misconduct .. something like that).
It just seemed to me HMU got big chuckles by the strife and division he could stir up under the facade of “not understanding”. Fred, Toto pulled the curtain back on HMU. He got exposed for what we already suspected he was … an MFI operative. I think HMU was highly offended that there was a place where people could vent about the abuse of MFI churches … his world got rocked …it was his way of defending the fortress MFI.
I feel for the guy, but, … um ….. I am really not in favor of any Havis or Cowboy reruns!
As for the email exposure, did his personal email get displayed? Or was it the corporation he worked for?
I think HMU will be better for it in the long run. The Vegas line has the over/under at 2 weeks on him coming back under a new name. If I was a bett’n man I’d say under! He’ll be back, MFI’er don’t let go that easy.
Can’t we all just get along? Love to see the brother working it out Biblically.
You guys are awesome
Later
ICE
June 16th, 2008 at 4:22 am
I have to agree with Fred Flinstone, I happened on this sight about a month ago, and felt led to defend certain people that I care about. I was attacked and told to stay off this sight. I still read and find some of the post interesting, only the ones about scripture and interpretation. It gets me thinking and reading and praying in ways I have not done before. I am very sad about some of the personal stories on this site and how they have been treated, I don’t enjoy the ones when you make fun of some one’s speech, clothes or use of the English language.
I know many of you feel that I have wrong teaching, instead of giving me love or kindness, I was called names and asked to leave this sight. In fact there were some comments that I wanted to ask questions about or ask for a deeper understanding on, however, I knew that unless I changed my name I would not be treated kindly and that seemed dishonest. Funny, that although I don’t know you and you don’t know me, I was still wounded by some of your harsh comments to me. And I felt very unwelcomed, which I believe is how you were made to feel at the church you have left. Some times we turn into what we criticize the most in other people. I no longer attend a MFI church but I had a great experience at one. I grew in the Word and my knowledge of how Jesus loves me, due to that fact, I was told I would be mocked at the Heavenly Gates.
I have continuted to read the blog, not sure why, and again I have found some of the reading whether I ageed or not to sharpen me, because it got me researching, praying and asking the Lord questions, but I felt I was not welcomed here. I am sure I will once again be attacked, but I did feel it might be helpful to let you know, you are doing what was done to you, pushing out the people who don’t agree with you, surrounding yourself with only those who will agree with you.
June 16th, 2008 at 6:59 am
The funny thing is that this issue occurred over whether or not the Bible requires a cell/home church type model or allows for large group meetings. That is not even an MFI issue, really. Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists and most others have some form of a group meeting with one person doing the primary speaking with the exception of scripture reading, children’s story, announcements and other short sections of the service. The topic was not tithing, authority or some other MFI specific topic.
A bit off topic, but not exactly. Many of the issues that we faced in MFI churches are the challenges of human beings in leadership. I have experienced many of the same types of problems working in secular organizations. In the church, we expect better behavior and the stakes are much higher but some of the issues come from dealing with sinful, fallen, broken people. Yes, it would help if Christian leaders truly saw themselves in need of all of the same grace as their followers.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:17 am
I was not trying to get off topic, I was just supporting the idea that I think it was wrong to ask HMU to leave the blog. OR to lead people to believe they have the freedom to be annonymous then to out them. Just giving my point that I was told that I was confused, brainwashed and sarcastic. Because my experience with A MFI church was positive. I will admit that I did get sarcastic in some of my writings as well, I am not really proud of some of my responses. I was chastised for my sarcasm while others stated that sarcasm was welcome here. I guess my only point, again, I am sure I will be attacked, is you should welcome other opinions if you want open dialogue.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:19 am
That comment was related to what I wrote after it not your comment ACC.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Kindly provide a direct quote of anyone anywhere who asked HMU to leave the blog.
You know guys, it’s not easy on the Morton bros. to run this site - to take a ‘hands off’ approach then watch persons occasionally take advantage of that and finally RP, Cat, Tom, Dave, JoeBib or myself have to ‘moderate’ the situation - then endure the fall out of the readership. So we have scripture to guide us, the Spirit, but also seem to have to ‘abide’ by every reader’s expectation of ‘internet rules’ and good ol’ ‘free speech’ … honestly, trying to chart a path through all of that is a pain in the ass. There is a common trait in my view, between the likes of Cowboy, Havis, Honor & Glory, HMU, and dozens of others who have passed through here over the years, and that is instead of a spirit of compassion, understanding and just plain ol’ love, they bring with them a spirit of antagonism - and I don’t mean “spirit of” in the charismaniac sense of something to be named and ‘cast out’ like a devil, but just the very clear agenda someone has to undermine, ridicule and thereby inflict further harm on the people here who are just looking for a safe place to hang out and share - without MFI big brother passing judgment on what they think and feel with correction and so forth …
Have you read all of HMU’s posts here? I have. And I told him how they made me feel, all the while knowing from the ‘moderators’ control panel who the guy really was and therefore having more insight into the guy’s comments than the readership. His behavior was trollish and antagonistic.
My view is somewhat akin to what Paul wrote about the parts of the body - when one part suffers, all do, and concerning the presentable and un-presentable parts … that passage suggest to me that the more sensitive parts deserve special consideration from the whole body … that said, IF everyone posting here were “doing fine” and just wanted debate, then there’s be no need for moderation - just let the kids wrestle in the yard, you know? But since there are people here who have been injured and are trying to work through it on this blog, who are finding some validation and healing in the similar testimonies of others here, it seems to me that we, as a body, need to show some deference for that and deal with those who come to disrupt that process …
I don’t know if either of you have spent any time in counseling or therapy groups, but there is a moderator / counselor to facilitate discussion and ensure members are sensitive to one another … imagine hosting a discussion group for sexual abuse victims where perpetrators were allowed to come and go and harass their victims … now imagine MFI pastors masquerading here, manipulating discussions, with people who have come here to flee from them …
If you go to http://www.citybusinesschurch.org main page, you’ll see that RP and Cat at one time hoped to have a discussion forum … I’d still like to see that, with membership, validation, moderation/ers, specific forums for debate and venting and testimonies … the blog is NOT the best (safe) tool for doing that, but without a BBS which is more safe, then there’s no choice but to post in the blog … even so, it shouldn’t be too hard to figure out what the blog is for, IF persons would read some of RP and Cat’s foundational posts from several years ago. It seems clear to me that the blog, being established by ex-CBC / ex-MFI’ers, is there to foster discussion among people with similar experience and those sympathetic to their experience.
I’m not the least bit sorry or apologetic for outing an MFI pastor who had been inciting and antagonizing the people here who were just trying to share amongst themselves. My application of the body principle discussed above, suggests to me that people who are here looking to share their experiences anonymously and hook up with others the same, have a right to know when there’s a (proverbial) wolf roaming freely among them …
There’s another idea that influences my actions here - and that has been called “identificational repentence” … specifically, HMU is an MFI pastor - he could have said that and expressed some measure of sympathy for the people here who have been hurt by MFI wherein I’m certain that he’d have been embraced and loved like Dave and Tom have been. They both came in with their hearts on their sleeves and it’s been a real joy to watch the healing they’ve brought to the board through their testimony and genuine sorrow for the part(s) they played in anyone here who had been hurt. More often than not, however, the MFI affiliates who come here do a “drive-by shooting” at the blog or individuals here - or as in HMU’s case, played dumb games with people.
Perhaps I’ve just gotten too old for this stuff, or come from a generation with a different understanding of respect and integrity.
Sam
June 16th, 2008 at 10:52 am
While the discussion has broadened quite a bit what I was hoping for upfront was pretty simple. If you would have said, “People did need to know HMU is an MFI insider, I should not have given out his personal information.” I would have left it alone. I would still have some points of contention but would not continued on.
Of course, my better judgement told me to leave it alone several posts ago. = ). but here I am.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:57 am
What are some posts that I can read to see some of the negative you saw in HMU? I tend to follow the discussion but allow who said what to get a bit muddled.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Look under the blog stats. As for “the negative” I saw in HMU, it’s as much discernment as anything I read.
HMU had been called on before to come clean and wasn’t forth coming. What makes you think another round of cat and mouse would have done any good?
Perhaps you’d like to moderate? Cat is busy with his move to Chicago. RP is in and out. Dave is on hiatus. Tom is gone. Joebib is gone. For all the ‘feedback’ about how the blog is run, there’s darn few helpers and that I’m aware, no contributions to help it operate, ‘cept Henri’s generous donation of server space.
Was it MFI taught you to flog the volunteers?
Sam
June 16th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Thanks Sam. I will look under the blog stats. I was not challenging your stance but asking how I could follow your suggestion of reading his posts.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Like a crazy man, I read all 142 of HMU’s posts. I see that he stepped on the deadly third rail of prosperity/tithing a number of times and would not leave it alone. He also got off on the wrong foot here. In his first extended engagement he talked around the issue of Judah’s cars and house. I was not here for any of those discussions.
Just wanted you to know I cared enough to do my due diligence.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Thanks for following up, Fred. Give my love to Wilma.
Sam
PS - I read thru a bunch of his posts again too … he was pretty short with Negrodamus and a few of the other old timers here. And I have taken your comments / concerns to heart. No worries, OK?
June 16th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Fred,
It’s kind of like the TV show “Survivor” at time around here. Sometimes people get voted off … er …web-mastered off (for the good of all), and others like HMU …… well ….. they vote themselves off!
June 17th, 2008 at 7:08 am
I’ve been out of the IC for about 7 years now … having spent 40 years there, I was accustomed to the liturgical style and everything was SO sanitized and controlled by the pastors, I never saw conflict until I joined a committee (at 18 years old) where I witnessed fighting over trivial stuff and quit the committee. In the years following, I began to notice the factionism which ran off several pastors whom I loved and each such experience propelled me into looking for another church. Finally I couldn’t take it anymore and left the IC, spending about a year alone, fellowshipping only with my wife, until I was invited to a multi-state gathering of ‘out of churchers’ (OOC) to help lead worship …
We weren’t there a day, before someone effectively commandeered the microphone on my sound system as ‘emcee’ - we were sitting with our chairs in the round and talking about the friction(s) we’d experienced, when one brother challenged the guy with the mic asking him who’d appointed him, etc. I remember thinking “oh God, here we go again” … and though there was a lot of tension and venting, the group worked it out and that was unlike anything I’d ever seen in the IC - such fights there always marked a church split, staff blood-letting, etc.
What impresses me about that is, though unpleasant, each person remained committed to the group despite the temptation to leave when things got heated - and for the first time I saw that the Church could fight it out and still remain brothers and sisters together.
As often as I’ve said and heard others say “I got kicked out of the church” - I wonder if it is more truthful to say “people weren’t receptive to what I had to say” or “there was a lot of friction / resistance (to me) there” and “so I left”. HMU was not asked to leave, yet, it has been suggested several times that he was. In my own case, I’ve martyred myself more often than I’ve been martyred by others.
Sam
June 17th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Church doesn’t need to be shorter, it just needs to challenge men. Take a look at Mars Hill Church in Seattle. Mark Driscoll regularly preaches an hour to an hour and a half EVERY Sunday. The church is FULL of men. It’s about 50% married, 50% single, and a lot of the men are the “impossible to reach” twentysomething crowd. If you want men in your church, look at this one!
June 17th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
I’d consider going back to church for about 16 weeks out of the year if they would project my live fantasy football stat-tracker on the plasma behind the pastor’s head.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
I gotta agree with you Sam. I had some debates with HMU and he always acted so immature, pretending like he didn’t know what was going on. At one point I thought, “does this guy live in the back woods of Montana or something?” After a few exchanges I couldn’t take it anymore and stopped talking to him. I know FF and ACCMember are sticking up for him because they have received some of the same “attacks” as he did but that is primarily because they came in here on the defensive. If someone gets up in your grill screaming “you are just bitter” they have no right to be shocked by people who fight back. This is not a forum designed for them. This is a forum for people who have ALREADY been harmed by mind controlling, prosperity driven, egotistical mega-churches, not those who are still apart of them. However, I do agree with Pope that we need them to come on here and read and post, because it’s important to get our message out. If they ain’t reading then we are just preaching to the choir. However, make no apologies for calling them out when they want to come at you with a bunch of bs. I hate when Christians don’t fight back for the sake of being “Christian.” We have a right to defend ourselves and stick up for what we believe in, even if it can be offensive to some.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Everyone loves free advertising space.
I think I’d consider going back to church if I didn’t feel so patronized by nearly every church I’ve ever been to. I just don’t enjoy being treated like a child by someone who assumes that they’re morally and spiritually superior to everyone else because they’re standing behind a pulpit.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Andrey,
It’s the typical accepted Christian Culture/Society thing - the pastor is the king - the CEO - the authority on demand i.e. the One To Suck Up To so he has a sense of entitlement to talk down to the people (unless he takes servanthood and humility seriously). If enough of us say no more to the patronization, like you are doing, perhaps a change will come to the Body Of Christ at Large, even if it is slow going.
June 18th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
I originally wrote an uber-long response to this, then decided to delete it. This one is just long.
*No longer attend an MFI church.
*I did not show up here “defensive”. I stumbled across this web page looking for a friend who had been deeply hurt at one of the large MFI churches. So, I showed up sympathetic.
*It is silly to expect someone to read 2 years of comments to make a comment about something said today. No one is going to do that. Just be gracious and educate people. Yes, that means you will waste time being gracious to someone who will end up being a butt.
*CONTROVERSY COMING: some folks on the site should simply embrace some of the bitterness that shows up here from time to time. I am a Sonics fan and am a regular visitor but rare poster to a Sonics blog. Right now people are mad, bitter and angry that their team is being taken from them. They don’t deny it. They simply look at it is a natural response to pain and being treated unfairly. This would be a much better approach than denying it in my opinion. I AM NOT SAYING JUST GET OVER IT. I am saying that letting some anger out is positive at times. Then a separation between positive and harmful expressions can be made. Forgiveness can be instantaneous but healing is always a process. Attack people for not giving you a space to heal but not for pointing out your wounds and scars.
I am here because the majority of what happens here helps me solidify what I think and believe.
June 18th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Guys, Fred Flintstone’s real identity is: Barney Rubble and he goes to the Bedrock City Church.
Fred, I haven’t detected anything but grace, maturity and genuine understanding from you. I’m glad you’re here.
Sam
June 18th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Thanks Sam. I also went to your music website to check it out.
June 26th, 2008 at 10:03 am
I know I’m late to the party here…but I had to weigh in on the HMU thing.
My principle feeling tells me we should use the most paramount discretion when outing a fellow blogger, whether friend or foe. Early in my experience here I got in a thread with someone and got in the crosshairs of Cat (I think, might have been RP?). Anyways…turned out it was a case of dyslexic post reading on Cat’s part and things were clarified offline through email. But at that time I would have been pissed to be outed due to it. I, too, value a certain amount of anonymity.
Now, I fully realize that HMU’s situation is different. He didn’t get mistaken in a post thread. He’s shown a pattern of passive-aggressive bait-posting. But I like to think that MOST of us here are adults, and this situation simply reminds me of what I tell my son when he gets pissed and annoyed with his little sister… JUST IGNORE THEM!
We need many voices on here, and from a person who was hurt by an MFI church and even a bit bitter and angry in my early years…I didn’t feel threatened or prohibited from HMU’s presense. Was I annoyed to heck by him and his countless “I’m not sure I understand” games…absolutely! But I’m pretty good at ignoring those who earn the honor and I’d hope everyone else here could too!
Just my .02
GS