14 Comments To This Post

1. FICM said:    
   June 13th, 2008 at 10:32 am

   Sam, I appreciate your viewpoint and I do agree that sometimes the “orderly” part can be an excuse for control. On the other hand, I’ve been a part of small churches and church meetings where everyone had a say, and let me tell you that that doesn’t always go so well. In fact it rarely goes well. Letting a new convert drop an f-bomb from the pulpit is not orderly or constructive. Letting people “vomit” into the mic about all their R-rated personal problems doesn’t build up a healthy and family-friendly kind of church.

   My point is that there indeed should be involvement by those mature enough to share for the edification of all, but there should also be those in charge with the wisdom to know how is mature and who isn’t.

   Even from a logistical standpoint, not everyone should have the opportunity to speak, especially if you don’t want the service to last for days. It’s hard enough to find people who have something worthwhile to say, let alone finding that those people can say it in front of dozens or hundreds of others with a modicum of skill in public speaking.

   I’ve been attending a church for the past 2 years, where the pastor preaches most of the time and occasionally he will have another one of the pastors speak. He’s got great public speaking skills and quickly builds rapport with the congregation every week. He rarely speaks longer than 20-25 minutes and I get something out of it every time. However, a few weeks ago, one of the women of the church spoke and I can honestly say that it was the absolute worst message I’ve ever heard. (Calm down, it had nothing to do with her being a woman.) This girl would have made William Shatner look like a Shakespearean actor. Her frequent pauses and half-finished sentences made me want to dig into my ears with my car keys. Her rambling dialogue made her hard to follow and my friend literally asked me “Why is she so angry?” This was someone who was “inside” and had been vetted by the pastoral team before she spoke. I can only imagine if that had been my only impression of our church I would have left and never returned.

   Unless you’re meeting in a small group or home meeting, orderliness must trump involvement and inclusion or you risk chaos and that edifies no one. If you really want a kum bay ya kind of church experience, stay home and invite over a few friends you can talk with about anything. If you want “church” where people, and even unbelievers, can all be edified you’re going to have to settle for “order”.

   One final parting shot - I think Paul’s guidelines for church behavior were just that: guidelines. People create dogma out of things that were only good suggestions, instead of using their heads. In the war of Scripture vs. Scripture, people misappropriate words as HOLY MANDATES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD instead of being practical wisdom on how to behave in church. Of course, they do this with a lot of Scripture so it’s no wonder Christians don’t know how to behave without someone telling them what to do.

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2. Samaritan said:    
   June 13th, 2008 at 11:30 am

   Well, Dog (that just kills me, FICM) - you know I’m ‘off the reservation’ … another group I frequent is ‘house church’ oriented and I think we’ve concluded from experience, that there’s some thresholds to be observed in assemblies - for me, a dozen folks in a house church is comfy/cozy for sharing and relationship - beyond that it can start to get unwieldly, wherein a healthy house church will decide to part to keep the numbers down and sharing reasonable.

   One of the tings I did appreciate at the IC I attended back in WA, was a quarterly w&p service, which took on an open mic format … people shared one at a time, and people waited respectfully for the present speaker. Sometimes the testimony was heart-rending and so the pastor would interrupt the flow to take us to prayer for that person, and then resume the testimony. It was very edifying. Side note though - eventually, some older man would get up and give a ‘thanks’ for his wife as a gift from God - and then sitting in the back I could see several other wives around the congregation begin to nudge their husbands to do the same - which would precipitate a litany of “thank God for my wife” type testimonies … I always found that funny …

   I’ve also been present when someone gave one of those gut-wrenching dirty-laundry type testimonies with recounting the devil’s escapades in their life, all neatly wrapped up with a “BUT JESUS SAVED ME” conclusion … I felt slimed when it was over. On the other hand, it lets the church know where the person is at and gives everyone cause to pray and love on the person … the flip-side of that - trying to ensure such testimony never happens - effectively bottles the person up with the horrors that have happened to them so the body never knows to pray for / minister to the person … I’ve heard the advocates of ‘absolute orderliness’ claim that they pre-approve and rehearse ‘words’ from the saints to ensure no error or controversy is spoken - yet lest the person be allowed to speak it, how is it identified for the body to deal with it? If the pastor does all the ‘discerning’ how does the body learn to function and discern for itself?

   You’ve no doubt heard the term “relational Christianity”, wherein body ministry is emphasized and believers are encouraged to be open, honest and vulnerable with each other … often it has been likened to a nuclear family, which can often be intensely emotional, experience bitter disagreement, etc., but always coming back to the reality of family relationship, for better or worse, like it or not.

   I imagine FICM (Dog) that it would ensure our expulsion if ever we ventured into a CBC or other MFI church and spoke out against the prosperity doctrine or tithing … we’d be shown the door post-haste … the kind of Church I’m talking about, would not sacrifice truth for orderliness, family relationship for doctrinal agreement … I just think there’s a better way than shutting down sharing / testimony before everyone has a chance to speak, because of fear that something inappropriate might be spoken … that is essentially submitting to fear, in my view.

   What I’m really looking for, is balance … on the one hand, 1 Cor. 14:26 implies unbridled freedom, the other 1 Corinthians 14:40 seeks orderliness - the interpretation is often constrictive - but can there be a balance between the two?

   The same issue of balance seems to be at the root of prosperity vs. godliness … on the one hand, God says ‘you can’t serve God and mammon’, suggesting that they are polar opposites … it seems as if the closer we get to God, the farther we move away from mammon. And of course God lets us choose whom we serve … I suppose we all fall between the extremes and the rich ones, I think, have just found a comfortable mix of serving mammon and God … I wonder why, if they truly believe “you can’t out give God”, they don’t give it ALL away, as Jesus asked the young ruler to do? Surely if they believe they can’t out give God, they wouldn’t be afraid to give it all away because SURELY if their belief was correct, God would give back MORE than what they gave away. Hmmm … Paul told Timothy to encourage the rich ones to be rich in generous good works - so I don’t know why the ‘prosperous’ ones aren’t seeking to give it all away. Me thinks they are mammon-leaning on the mammon or God meter …

   Generally, what I’ve observed of the IC, is where there is seeming tension in scripture, like between freedom and order, God and money, man will invariably make the self-serving, flesh-appeasing choice.

   Take care, Dog.

   Sam

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3. Fred Flintstone said:    
   June 13th, 2008 at 5:34 pm

   Generally, what I’ve observed of the IC, is where there is seeming tension in scripture, like between freedom and order, God and money, man will invariably make the self-serving, flesh-appeasing choice.

   I think that an honest assessment of our belief system will always point out trade offs and tensions. I think that is part of what builds faith, not just the blind adherence to a set of creeds or rules. I also believe that the tensions should lead us on a continual search for the heart and true nature of God. What often happens in church traditions is that the tensions are ignored or explained away through contorting, nullifying or over-emphasizing certain. If we believe that the scripture is truly God inspired then the fuzziness around certain issues was intentional, not something we should ignore or explain away.

   I have been on leadership teams in Baptist churches that believe tongues is not for today and pentecostal churches that use tongues part of the core of its belief system. The funny thing is that both sides use almost the same exact set of scriptures to make their points. Both sides do some odd exegesis to make their points. I think they do that to support what they already believe rather than live with the tensions the Bible can create.

   At another time I will have to go on a rant about how the enlightenment has caused us to believe we can use our minds to understand and put anything into order, including God. To do that we would have to be able to completely comprehend God which I believe is impossible. Connect that with the post-modern movement which is a partial rejection of modern and enlightenment thought and you have a master’s thesis.

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4. Nina said:    
   June 14th, 2008 at 1:14 am

   As for tongues, I’m very confused on the subject. I always wanted to discuss it someone but whenever I ask leadership or anyone about it, they repeat the same cliches and repeat the standard cliches. or my faith would be questioned.

   First of all, I don’t understand why tongues exist and its purpose. So, here are my questions and I’m interested in all the opinions.

   1, Can a person be filled with the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues? Or is speaking in tongues necessary to be a spirit-filled believer?

   2, Does the Bible command all believers to speak in tongues?

   3, If tongues are supposed to be a personal devotional language for a believer, then isn’t it contradictory to Jesus telling us “when you pray, do not babble like the pagans…”

   I came from a pagan background and I can tell you that there are pagan groups that also speak in ‘tongues’ and while praying repeat the same non-comprehendable sounds over and over. When I used to heard them speak in ‘tongues’ I felt the hair on my skin stand up. The atmostphere was creepy and had an eerie feel. Their tongues could sound similar to our tongues to someone who’s not very discerning or new to faith. Scary thought, huh? (This is not to imply that the pentecostal/charismatic speaking in tongues is from the devil. It could be valid. What if it is biblical but there are counterfeits to tongues just like false prophecies exist)

   For me, when I first heard tongue speaking in a Christian church as a new believer, I assumed they were praying in Hebrew

   4, Other than pentecostals/charismatics who else speaks in tongues?

   I know this is quite a bit and we could go on. I heard some of the Baptist perspectives and I thought it was interesting. I dont know about others. I’m still not sure about this subject even after attending PBC but then again this is not something I’d lose my salvation over but at the same time can’t exactly ignore it.

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5. Nina said:    
   June 14th, 2008 at 1:15 am

   excuse me for my typos

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6. whatHEsaid said:    
   June 14th, 2008 at 10:06 am

   Hi Nina,

   I saw your post about speaking in tongues and thought I’d share my ideas/experiences.

   1. Yes. A person receives the Spirit when they believe on Christ. (See John 7:38-39)

   2. No. “All do not speak with tongues do they?” (1 Cor. 12:30) There seem to be at least two different types ot ‘tongues’ in scripture. The first one seen in Acts has to do with interpreting foreign languages. The other seems to be for personal devotional use.

   3. Since tongues is listed as a gift of the Holy Spirit in the NT, one couldn’t be “babbling like a pagan” when exercising a gift of the Holy Spirit. In my personal use of tongues, I use it in private/secret. I do not think it is a correct use of personal tongues to speak in a prayer language in a public meeting. 1 Cor. 14:23 says, “If therefore the whole church should assemble together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?” Unfortunately, I have heard this in many charismatic meetings! They are well outside of Apostolic teaching when they do so! (this is often lead by those who teach unquestioning obedience to themselves….) Notice also the mention of ‘ungifted men’ here, who seem to be Christians, ie they are not ‘unbelievers’.

   I went to PBC for a couple years, but I learned most of what I just shared from reading/prayer time, and from Theo Johnson while attending his “St Peter’s Meetings” in his home. You can still benefit from Theo’s website;
   www.healingtouchministries.org

   Download the free training.

   Peace

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7. Samaritan said:    
   June 14th, 2008 at 11:42 am

   My testimony regarding tongues covers some 25 years of my life as a Christian, Nina. I’d like to address some of your questions through experience, as whatHEsaid covered scripture.

   I first received Jesus as Lord and Savior when I was 14 (?), on March 29th, 1970 - at an Easter Sunday service in a non-charismatic, mainline church (Presbyterian). That church held a touching candle-light service on the Thursday before Easter, called a Maundy Thursday service. I was seated with the choir in the loft, accompanying them on classical guitar, while the pastor and elders of the church sat around the table, taking turns reading each of the 7 utterances of Jesus while He was on the cross. Each time they read one of the 7 things Jesus said, they’d extinguish 1 of the 7 candles, and the lights in the sanctuary were dimmed a little more. Finally one candle remained and the pastor read the final words of Jesus “Father, into thy hands I commit my Spirit” - as the Pastor extinguished the last candle, I looked up at the cross which was draped with a cloth, and I clearly saw Jesus hanging there, in the throes of death.

   My heart broke and I wept. For 3 days, I grieved his death and realized finally how much I loved Him and wanted Him. The following Sunday, Easter, the pastor yelled loudly when he came out onto the platform “JESUS IS ALIVE” and my spirit leaped for joy! I responded to the ‘altar call’ (very very unusual for a die-hard traditional Pres. church) and gave my life to Christ.

   Clearly, I was experiencing something of the Holy Spirit (a vision) before I received Jesus as Lord and Savior! How is it possible that I would experience anything of the Holy Spirit if as some claim, the only evidence of having the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues?

   Over the next several years, I heard the Holy Spirit speak to me several times - directional and instructional words - and my youth pastor at the time was amazed at the “words of wisdom” I often spoke in our summertime devotionals at the church - the “word of wisdom” is a gift of the Holy Spirit per 1 Cor. 12:8-10.

   When I was 16, I began writing Christian songs and played guitar in a multi-denomination song and dance troupe - where I had a solo slot to sing / play my original songs. Often I was told the songs were “anointed”. Once again, how did I experience the “word of wisdom” and write “anointed” music if I did not have the Holy Spirit?

   By the time I was 20, I was in a duo with my brother, doing concerts all over western WA. We testified between songs, not always rehearsed but talked about life in Christ as we were moved to share between songs and often after the concerts people commented how the words had hit them squarely in the heart - it was what they needed to hear at the time. On occasion, we experienced the “word of knowledge” - another of the gifts of the Holy Spirit - but - I did NOT speak in tongues at the time.

   Finally we sang at an independent charismatic church in Federal Way, where I heard about and witnessed the gift of tongues for the first time, before our concert. That experience launched me into studying several books and scriptures on the subject, wherein I prayed to receive the gift of tongues. But I was NOT to receive it for another 20 years, until March 29, 1999 - 29 years to the day after I was “born again”.

   During the 25 years or so I knew of tongues and prayed for the gifts, I encountered all kinds of people with the gift, who upon learning I did NOT have the gift, claimed I did NOT have the Holy Spirit. Yet I had been experiencing visions, hearing from the Holy Spirit, operated occasionally in the word of wisdom and word of knowledge, wrote anointed original music and enjoyed a fruitful concert ministry.

   The experiences hurt me fairly deeply, such that I wrestled with the tongues issue the entire 25 years, one day desiring it intensely, the next day thinking I didn’t want it at all because those who had the gift made me feel worthless for not having it. I remember one such encounter I went off on the guy and asked him “how many people would come to church to listen to you stand on stage and speak in tongues” … “none” he said … then I boasted about having just done a concert before an audience of 2000 at Ft. Lewis. I asked him “in terms of edifying the body, who has the better gift” …

   It wasn’t until I had bottomed out with my life that the Lord gave me the gift of tongues - I’d lost my job, home, children to divorce, etc., and was in a very dark and depressing place emotionally / mentally. On that March 29, 1999 morning, He called to me several times, saying “come” which I understood to mean join him in the living room for teaching via the scriptures - for encouragement … but I was desperate to find a job and ignored him … finally I submitted and joined Him - he had me open the drapes, put on some coffee, eat something, and then I sat down on the couch where He led me through scripture after scripture to encourage me and direct me.

   Finally He had me read Ephesians 5 (?) where it says “and pray IN THE SPIRIT on all occasions” … up to that point, Nina, I had been taking notes about all the scriptures He shared with me - writing down my thoughts and impressions - but when I came to Ephesians 5 (?), and the words “pray IN THE SPIRIT on all occasions”, I stopped and stared. “IN THE SPIRIT” I read over and over, as if confused by the words. Finally He said “IF you love Me, you will obey My command” … “you mean pray IN THE SPIRIT” … “yes” … “but I don’t know HOW to pray IN THE SPIRIT, Lord” ….

   He then said “Open wide your mouth and I will fill it” (Psalm 81:10). I was shocked and scared, and opened my mouth only to express my fears … He repeated it … again I expressed fear … again He repeated it - and as I opened my mouth to speak fear once again, He washed over me like a flood, my tongue took on a life of its own, and I erupted in heavenly praise! It was like being overwhelmed with love from head to toe, inside and out …

   Since I was unemployed and home alone that day, I prayed that way until late into the night - about 14 hours. The next day I awoke, and could NOT pray in tongues again. I heard a voice, not the Lord’s, say to me “the Lord let you speak in tongues for a day, just so you could see what it was like, but the gift is NOT yours to keep” …. then the Lord’s voice was heard saying to me “that is a lie, My son - I have given you the gift for keeps - now use your concordance and look up every where scripture says I will put my words in your mouth and read them aloud” … and so I read several such scriptures about the Lord giving us the words to say … at first I read timidly - but by the fourth or fifth such verse, I was yelling them out and finally said to the enemy (who comes to STEAL, kill and destroy) “THE LORD HAS GIVEN ME TONGUES FOR KEEPS - NOW GET OUT OF MY HOUSE, NOW!!!” and with that, I launched into tongues for the rest of that day. In fact, I prayed in tongues non-stop for about a week (except to sleep) until I finally had to run some errands around town. Ever since then, the gift of tongues has been on-demand and fluent, for me.

   My point in all of this, Nina, is that the Holy Spirit makes his home in the believer and gives / enables the believer to use the gifts of the Spirit when and how the Lord desires. In my own experience, I see the wisdom of Paul who said something like “I’d rather speak a few words of encouragement everyone can understand, than a thousand words in an unknown tongue” (paraphrase) … for tongues edifies the speaker, but the prophetic gifts (word of wisdom, word of knowledge, prophecy) edify the whole body.

   Note that in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul speaks of praying with his mind and praying with his spirit as different things - and that when praying with/in the spirit, his mind is ‘unfruitful’ because it does NOT know what the spirit is praying about, so he prays with his mind as well. So I do think “praying IN THE SPIRIT” refers to tongues.

   I did rely on Luke 11:13 (?) which says “how much more will the Father in Heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask” … so I asked for more … not sure there was anything I could have done to receive sooner, rather than wait 25 or so years for the gift of tongues. I figure He knows what He’s doing so the wait must have accomplished growth in me that was needed.

   Sam

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8. Nina said:    
   June 14th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

   Samaritan and whathesaid, thanks guys. I can relate to your story, Sam. When I first accepted Christ I feel a deep peace and then I felt things were different. I used to say that it felt like I had a sixth sense that gave me somekind of a supernatural insight that isn’t exactly female intuition.

   Back then, as a new Christian I didnt know that was called word of knowledge or wisdom. This was when I was saved for 6 months. Sometimes I’d have these moments where God would use me to speak a word over others. Other believers have confirmed it and it was biblical type of word of knowlege.

   I often felt confused because I thought how can I not be filled with the Spirit if that happened.

   I’m just very vary about how it used. I’ve often seen charismatics get caught up in the thrills and misuse spiritual gifts. The emphasis is towards self glory and to impress others. I’ve seen manipulation and abuse of gifts. I’ve heard too many nonsensical spiritualized garbage disguised as spiritual gifts with no edifying purpose.

   As for tongues, I had on several occasions altar workers ask me if I was baptised in the Holy Spirit. I thought it meant tongues. I had people pray and push tongues on me.

   Right before I entered PBC, the ‘tongues’ I started speaking was because it was expected and because i got caught up in the surroundings. I felt it was a learned experience rather than something God put in me.

   At the moment, I’m praying and maybe I need to read the bible (the most obvious one) but I didnt really ask God to speak to me about it. If I am praying in tongues, I want it to be a genuine Holy Spirit things rather than faked.

   I still have an uneasy feeling of tongues.

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9. FICM said:    
   June 16th, 2008 at 6:37 am

   Nina,

   Having been part of BT/CBC for over a decade and part of charismatic circles, then leaving that environment, I have since reformed my ideas about the Holy Spirit in general. That said, I think their ideas are well-intentioned but like others have already said, people use Scripture to back up their view and create dogma that really isn’t present in the Bible, or at least that’s my opinion.

   CBC generally believes that there is a separate experience from Salvation called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (or being filled with the Spirit). Being filled is evidenced primarily by speaking in tongues, and in most cases it is a required evidence. Although defining “speaking in tongues” is impossible, even with their strict views on the matter. (Which leads many to babble stupidly in my opinion.)

   I personally believe that every Believer receives the Holy Spirit and there is nothing more to get. There is no additional baptism needed. In addition to Scripture (read Ephesians 1) my thinking is that if receive the Holy Spirit and it is the same Spirit by which Christ did miracles and was raised from the dead, then what could we possibly more gain through some second baptism? The other issue I take with this dogma is that it creates a culture of comparison, haves and have nots, that is actually divisive to the Church. Sam already gave a pretty good example of that so I won’t elaborate. It has also allowed for the mysticism of the word “anointing” wherein people can get “more” of the Holy Spirit which is then used as a lever to get people to attend more church, be more pious, give more money, etc. Their entire culture is centered around this concept of always trying to somehow attain more of the Holy Spirit through pious actions. It’s a vicious circle that actually creates more grief than good, in my opinion.

   1. I disagree with the idea that every Believer must speak in tongues. The CBC argument is that in Acts most examples demonstrate that people spoke in tongues as evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. My counter argument is that evidence is not a requirement. It’s the logical fallacy of “affirming the consequent” to say that because a Believer speaks in tongues after they receive the Holy Spirit that all Believers must speak in tongues who receive the Holy Spirit. They use precedent to create dogma in spite of Paul’s obvious rhetorical question, “Do all speak in tongues?” (No.) (1 Cor. 12) To say that there are different kinds of tongues and this isn’t the kind Paul is referring to is splitting (non-existent) hairs for sake of your viewpoint.

   2. I defy anyone to show me where the Bible commands that all Believers must speak in tongues.

   3. When Jesus was still there, the gift of tongues had not yet been given. He wanted to teach the disciples to pray out of the heart, and not by rote. In my opinion, he was referring to the practice of memorizing and reciting short prayers to repeat ad nauseum. Jesus was trying to change their mindset, that God was more than some abstract deity, which is why he opened the Lord’s prayer with “Our Father…” He was trying to show that prayer was about a relationship with God rather than an act of religious piety. Ironically, many believers still persist in this practice of reciting prayers and even use the Lord’s prayer to do it! Talk about missing the point.

   3b. I don’t profess to know what exactly is the purpose of speaking in tongues. There are some indications that is given to provide evidence to unbelievers as in Acts 2. Paul seems to contradict this (and himself) when he encourages people not to speak in tongues in public gatherings so that we don’t look foolish, but the boasts about doing it the most often. Again, CBC and other Pentecostals have created a dogma around this idea of praying in tongues, even though it is not clearly defined in the Bible. Even worse they ignore the advice of Paul to be orderly and practice shouting in tongues in services which after 10+ years of experience I have yet to see someone truly edified by this practice.

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10. Fred Flintstone said:    
    June 16th, 2008 at 10:11 am

    Sorry. I did not mean to turn this post into one about speaking in tongues. But, since we are there.

    Again, CBC and other Pentecostals have created a dogma around this idea of praying in tongues, even though it is not clearly defined in the Bible.

    I really think that is point. When it comes to the Spirit I believe in all of the gifts. I also think that people’s energy would be much better spent worrying about the fruit of the spirit which seem to be a promise to all believers. Jack Hayford of the Foursquare wrote an article back in 1992 arguing against tongues as the initial evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit. It was great. I wish I still had it. One of his main points was that the teaching of initial evidence created pressure on people that actually hindered them from experiencing God.

    Pushing tongues does create a real have and have not situation. One year our youth ministry was at Generation Unleashed and our most devout, sincere, God loving young lady came to my wife and I crying. Why was she crying? She was worried that God did not truly love her or that she had done something wrong because she was not able to speak in tongues. I did not talk about tongues much in youth service because my position did not match up with the church’s in certain places. It was really sad. I hated that and it was not her fault for feeling that way.

    My wish is that folks would not be dogmatic about an issue that is not clearly delineated in the scriptures.

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11. IC Emancipated said:    
    June 16th, 2008 at 9:39 pm

    Fred,

    Pretty tough to argue with anything Jack Hayford has written, preached, or sang. I also think very highly of him. He probably ranks right up there with Billy Graham in terms of ministerial integrity. Here are a few quotes from him probably in the same spirit as what you read in 1992….

    ” …. tongues were not intended as proof, but as s resource for praise , prayer, worship and spiritual warfare(intercession). Through out the Bible the experience of speak in tongues as people are baptized with the Holy Spirit that there is no way you can honestly dissociate the two events. But how they are related is not a priority in this work (Book: Grounds For Living) - but rather, that “speaking with tongues” is valid, valuable, and vital where rightly discerned in truth, welcomed in experience and applied to life”

    “Even so, one cannot make an airtight case for speaking in tongues being the evidence of baptism with the Holy Spirit - but you can’t conclusively say that it is not either. The healthiest posture is to take the attitude that:

    1. It was Jesus who first spoke about the subject.

    2. It was a birthmark when the church was born.

    3. The apostle Paul did not say anything bad about it.
    Paul said “I wish you all spoke with tongues…” (1Cor 14:5), and “I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all” (1Cor 14:18). Paul advised his readers that speaking in tongues was something that was open to every believer and was very desirable. He said it in such a way as to not make any person who didn’t speak in tongues feel guilty, but commended those who did speak in tongues. Note too, that the master-theologian and spiritual intellect of the NT was a self-proclaimed “speaker in tongues”, with no apologies; with gratitude for the value in his experience, and insistent that no one “forbid” believers to speak in tongues”.

    One more . . .

    “Jesus said, “and these signs will follow those who believe …” (Mark 16:17) and gave a list of indications by which people could identify that someone was a believer in Christ. They included:

    1. Casting out demons

    2. SPEAKING WITH NEW TONGUES

    3. Handling serpents without being hurt.

    4. Drinking deadly substances without being hurt

    5. Laying hands on the sick and seeing them healed.”

    I think tongues is an INDICATION that the baptism with the Holy Spirit has taken place, but I don’t think it is a QUALIFICATION for being acknowledged as filled with the Spirit.

    To tell a person, especially a youth, anything that remotely suggests that they are less saved, less accepted, less loved, less gifted, less holy or less accepted by God is absolutely stupid! (How else would you describe it?)

    ICE

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12. Reformed Pope said:    
    June 17th, 2008 at 5:36 am

    I can’t wait until CBC starts bringing in serpents to Generation Unleashed.

    Should be a good time for all.

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13. Samaritan said:    
    June 17th, 2008 at 6:48 am

    As for tongues being a sign for the unbeliever, in my case, the unbeliever was me - and the gift of tongues removed all doubt for me.

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14. Andrey Bolkonsky said:    
    June 17th, 2008 at 10:09 am

    You know, John Bevere clearly proved that there are actually four different types of tongues in the Bible. Oh, you may point out that they all use the same Greek work (glossa), or that there’s only one gift of tongues talked about in the Bible, but you’d be wrong.

    Personally, for what it’s worth, I have a hard time truly finding any reliable proof from the original texts that would indicate tongues as being anything more than speaking in a language unknown to the speaker. I don’t see tongues as a completely unknown, otherworldly language anymore, but merely a language that was unknown to the speaker but still a language spoken on this earth. I know that in all the time that I spoke with “tongues”, I never felt anything special unless I got myself all worked up and emotional (like I did when I had “intense” worship experiences), and it was something I controlled. If I didn’t actively control it, I ended up just repeating phrases of gibberish.

    If you were to take all the instances of the word tongues in the English bible and replace them with merely the word language (which would also be a correct translation of the Greek), I think we’d have a completely different understanding of the gift.

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