To Stay Or Not To Stay?
Posted on July 15th, 2008 by The Reformer into the Uncategorized categoryA new blogger recently had this to share:
Our old church shut people out when they brought up concerns and launched an outright attack complete with false and very incriminating stories when they left the church. We’re going through that now and its beyond painful - its devastating. Sure you can say “hey, just leave” but it can tear a family/individual apart to break way from something that you gave so much of your life too. Although I have faithfully attended church since I was a teenager (BT/CBC, than LHF), I can very easily see now why people walk away from church forever. If it weren't’t for our children, I would never go again.
I've had a number of debates over the last few years about whether or not one should stay at a church they don't like or even go to church at all. Most of us have the same church leaving stories - guilt, condemnation, anger, pain, etc. I've heard people argue they can't leave a church if its God's will for them to be there or if their family goes there because they will be "out of the covering." I've also heard people say they can't leave because they have to help bring about the change and leaving won't help. I've even had friends leave a church, go back, then leave again, all out of confusion about what's right and wrong in others eyes. I've gone through this a few times, first leaving CBC in high school, then leaving New Song in college, both of which were not easy at the time. I had all sorts of negative things said about me and lost a number of friendships over it. And I always love the crazy tactics churches leaders use to get people to stay, such as when my wife left CBC after growing up there - they offered her a paid staff position to stay. Now that's pretty funny.
In the new reformation church attenders should support people who decide to move on. Church is a bonus to our faith not a requirement of it. No one church is going to offer everything a person wants, likes or needs. Toady's church's are so concerned about their numbers that they dummy down their focus to attract more people. Instead of focusing on one area that they could be strong in (worship, preaching, outreach, drama, etc.) they try to cover all areas, being good at none of them. Over time they become cesspools of self adoration, where members think they are the best church out there. The bottom line is that church has become a man made show. If we want to change the church we have leave it and start fresh. The new 21st century church should encourage people to come and go as they please. I don't even think a person needs a home church to be a strong believer. Serving Christ is all about individual love and desire to know Him. Whether you go to church 7 days a week or never at all, that love and desire should come from within, not the four walls of a church.
Anyone have any good church leaving stories or additional thoughts on the need for church?
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July 15th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
We’ve compromised, after having left the last 3 churches very disillusioned, (YES, we prayed about whether it was just us or the church - decided it was the church), we attend a good AG church. That’s it - we just go on Sunday, and we come home. No involvment, no relationships, nada, zip, zero except for the Sunday service. I love it.
July 15th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
I agree with everything you said with the possible exception of the statement that we don’t need a home church. I guess I’m just not ready to say that anyone can live a solid life in Christ without regular fellowship with other believers. That said, how one chooses to surround themselves with other believers could vary, I suppose.
I think the church is sooo far from what Jesus intended and I don’t blame those that decide that they just can’t do it anymore.
The church that we left (Living Hope Fellowship) has a little tool box of tactics that they use when people start the process of leaving that church or even appear to have any issue with policy, individuals or.. heck, these steps are taken if someone misses two Sundays in a row!
- Flattery: suddenly, that individual or family is touted from the pulpit as the most amazing individuals ever to walk the face of this planet. Unbelievable how often this actually works.
- Promotion: Like your wife, individuals have been offered positions and the title “Pastor” in response to their expressed intention to leave. The title “Pastor” is thrown around like we might say “buddy” or even “hey you”. You would NOT believe the people that have been called “Pastor” and the circumstances that have lead to said people to whom LHF have bestowed that distinction.
- Prophecy: Its not God’s will for you to leave and your life won’t be blessed. Right, look back and you’ll turn into a pillar of salt.
- The Slam Campagin: People who have left are cast in a very negative light, through very subtle and evil means. This is the final, desperate tactic used to attempt to nullify any negativity that ex-LHF’ers might spread.
In response to one couple that decided to leave LHF, the leadership team launched this unbelievable smear campaign against them. The Pastor’s son told people that he was being persecuted, the Pastor told the leadership team that the couple didn’t tithe regularly anyway, numerous false accusations were made AND the pastor literally told his entire staff that association with this couple would result in termination.
Yeah, that’s pretty Christlike.
Flame off.
July 15th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Just as i am says
July 15th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Sorry Tucson
July 15th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Jesus loves the Church, bought it with His own blood, and promised that He will build it. A biblical mark of a believer is love for other believers, ie the church.
That is not a free pass for church leadership to do their own thing or play the power broker. But when that does happen why buy into the lie that all of church is screwed up and useless?
Yes I do believe that there are circumstances for leaving a church and sometimes it good to “stick it out’, but I think that those are mostly case by case situations. Even in Jesus day when there was so much hypocritical practices by the Jewish clergy, there was still people like Simeon, Anna and Nicodemus. In Acts there was the God fearers, gentiles who worshiped the God of Israel, like Lydia and others.
A good question would be, what does the bible say about the need for the church? There are messed up churches in the book of Revelation, what does Jesus say to them?
Until we bow are hearts before God,the gospel and His revealed will, we will become just like the ones we criticize and surround ourselves with bobble headed yes men.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Too many people today think that this “Church” is a group of people that meet on Sundays. They don’t understand that if you belive in Jesus you are a part of His church regardless if you attend a service each weekend or not.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
I’m very lonely since leaving church. I just want friends that understand where I come from.
July 15th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Even worse, most IC’s equate church with a paid staff and a pastor who has absolute authority over everyone in the church. Thus, if you’re not doing what the pastor says, you’re being divisive or rebellious. In Revelations, Jesus sent messages to the seven Churches, not to the seven pastors. Even Jesus gives no indication to the notion that pastors are the monarchy of the Church.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
A little extreme but I get your point. Have to be careful not to become so zealous that we become anti-everything. But also have to ensure that we are going to church for the right reasons and not judge those who choose not to go. God's grace is about being one and the same in Him, no matter our level of maturity in our faith.
Exactly. Why do churches make Christ the ABC of Christianity and not the A to the Z of it? It's like they get bored with that whole Christ died for our sins thing and have to "move on" to more pressing issues, like turning church into a multi-staged, hip production and pegging stakes all over the city to mark their territory. We are in a sad state of self-absorbed meism.
July 17th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
You know something I went back and forth with that for 2 years about leaving CBC. I decided to stay to pray and make sure I´m leaving for the right reasons. I´m sure most people know this but I´ll say it anyway…
Keep in mind that any church will not always 100% satisfy and have everything you are looking for because churches are made up of flawed people like me and you.
As for me, I´m facing this because I have family and friends that still attend CBC. My family would rather have me attend CBC with them but they respect my views. Some of my friends were curious about why I wanted to leave. Some respected my views while others treated me as a “backslider” and gave me the same standard cliched Christianese answers. I ignore them but its hard to sometimes. But not all are like that.
As for leadership, I´m still close to a few small group leaders and lay pastor. That lay pastor who I wont mention, discussed it with me. He and his wife are glad that I´m in a church where I feel called to. These guys were different from what I expected. I still attend their small group events like BBQ´s etc…
As for my mentor that mentored me throughout my PBC years. We are not in good terms anymore because of this. I try my best not to allow myself leaving CBC to get in the way of relationships.
Now, I´m glad I left CBC because for one I got tired of being treated like a proselythe and “lesser” Christian rather than a fellow believer in Christ. Also, I feel the other church is more like body of Christ rather than program or business.
I´m not saying what a person should do. If a person feels called to stay and serve in CBC, I´m glad for them. I think a person should pray, read scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to guide because He will guide you.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Good for you Nina.
Believers should always feel that they have freedom to go where the Holy Spirit leads them, but this should be done with prayer and searching the scriptures and our hearts like it you did.
My point is that if you do leave you should go somewhere, not nowhere. It is good and even biblical, to be committed to a local body of some kind, but our allegence should be to Christ and His church, not just one particular church.
Question for everyone. I know that authority and freedom seem to be like oil and water to alot of people, but do you believe that the two can exist together or not, are they mutually exclusive or are they both biblical and need to be embraced?
Thanks guys.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Hi Jeremiah,
I think freedom and authority do exist together. Jesus said, “All authority has been given to ME in heaven and on earth.” (Matthew 28:18)
Paul wrote in Galatians 5:1, “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.” Paul was talking about the slavery of being under the law.
Jesus tells us about freedom in John 8:32-35. “and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.” If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.”
Jesus is also the One who gives authority. Luke 9:1, “And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons, and to heal diseases.”
Both freedom and authority come from Christ. Personal freedom comes from knowledge of truth, which is to say knowledge of Christ. That takes time, study and mentoring…from someone who knows Him. Authority comes from hearing Christ, and doing what He tells you. I think you start
with the authority to resist sin and progress from there.
A good read on this is Watchman Nee, “Sit, Walk, Stand”.
July 18th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Jeremiah, I agree. I do believe there is a purpose and reason why a believer should be connected to a local body. I´ve visited other churches and felt called to another church. I started attending and immediately I was connected to home group. I feel I can serve better and be connected here better.
I like the last sentence. The problem is that in some churches like CBC, there is a tendency to commit to a brand of churchianity rather than Christ. It seems people take pastor Frank´s words (or whoever the protestant pope may be) as though it´s scriptural. I remember that whenever I say something like, “I don´t really agree with Frank on…” The reaction is a shock or surprise.
It seems many people put their confidence on a religious system. Here´s a test, suppose if the whole CBC religious system crashes those people would not know what to do.
It can be tough sometimes because whenever I´m facing a spiritual struggle, the first thing another person tells me is “Go get this book by so-and-so” or come to this conference or meeting to hear this man of God speak. I know these people have a good heart but they dont realize that I´m tired of superficialities and especially church culture.
I´d much prefer if a person prays for me, pick up scriptures and read it to me or spend time discussing it with me etc… But a Christian self-help book from a christian celebrity will fix all my problems.
July 18th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Jeremiah,
I believe that authority and freedom can and should co-exist. Presumably you agree? I think that the issue is the definition and application of those terms. I don’t necessarily want to the one to define them, but here are some thoughts:
Christ has all authority in heaven and earth. He has the liberty to be and do whatever he pleases, within his character. He shares his authority with us. He set us free by his work on the Cross. So, I see in the Bible that Christ has both, and that he expects and wants his believers to have both. When I see Christ exercise his authority and his freedom, I see him doing so out of love, truth and justice. That is how we should exercise our authority and freedom, as well, both personally (in our hearts and minds, in our behavior and lifestyles) and inter-personally (in our relationships with other people, including those in our family and church). Proper relationship with God will result in our walking in his authority and his freedom.
Most of us here have experienced church leaders who pronounce and preach their authority, and exercise it, NOT in a way that reflects love for God or love for their flock, or motivated by what is best for God’s kindgom or for the people they lead, but for self-promotion, power, control, etc. This improper understanding and application of “authority” (or false authority) does not foster freedom in the people who are literally “under it.” It actually fosters bondage. This is more like authoritarianism, not the leadership I see Jesus demonstrate.
I’ve seen false freedom, too, where people get into lawlessness in attempt to prove their freedom instead of walking in the true freedom for which Christ has set us free.
When someone in a position of authority exercises proper authority, I believe it does foster proper freedom. Again, I’m not sure I can define the terms, but sometimes defining a term by what it ISN’T can be very helpful.
July 18th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
No doubt in my mind that authority and freedom can co-exist, but the key for me is who’s authority are you referring to? If you are talking about Jesus, than yes I need His complete dominion and rein over my life to be completely free. But if you mean the authority of the local church or its pastors, then no, there can be no freedom in that because that is submission to man and I don’t believe that another man will ultimately know what’s best for my life. A pastoral staff that I see once or twice a week and exchange smiles and happy pleasantries with has no authority to control the decisions of my life simply by their position of being pastors. Its great to seek advice from leadership and those mentors and close friends and family that I trust, but in the end the ultimate decision rests on what I believe God has planned for my life.
July 19th, 2008 at 4:50 am
Wow. A lot of thoughts here. Don’t have time or diligence to write all of my thoughts.
I think having a home church is huge. Relationships with other believers is the reason. A church is the easiest place to do that. I also believe that the church can also provide a multigenerational, multiethnic body that brings people together who would not relate otherwise. We can get a bit inbred when we only hang out and talk to people who are like us.
On the other hand, the churches I have been around all my life make it much too difficult to leave. The idea of the exit interview type of thing does not work and puts pressure on both the leadership and the parishioner that is unnecessary. If the issue that is causing a person a desire to leave has not been discussed early the person is going to leave anyway or become bitter. So, ask why if you simply want to listen and not defend or explain. Otherwise just bless them and wish them well. AND sometimes it is time to go just because.
Authority is a funny thing. There are New Testament scriptures encouraging people to follow their leaders. There are also scriptures telling leaders not to lord it over the people. The NT also seems to push a more diversified leadership and ownership structure than the OT. There has to be a real balance in all of that. My father in law is a Lutheran. They have a congregational structure. We were talking about church a couple of days ago and he mentioned how they have difficulty when people come into their shared responsibility structure from a top down model. I guess I am saying that we cannot throw out structure and authority because we have been in situations where that balance has not even been attempted.
I have heard many thoughts about when it is time to go. For me, one of the main signs it is time to leave is if the church is hurting your life and zeal. If the church makes you feel bad: not convicted but bad. Then leave. If you have a doctrinal disagreement that you cannot overlook: leave. I could go on and on. If you were hurt by the church you left, take some time off if you want. We need to let our spiritual walk guide us. If your decision is wrong, God will deal with that. If you are right, then you are on your way to getting life more abundantly. As long as you don’t make a big fanfare about it you can’t really lose.
July 20th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
the issue at hand is how do you define “the church”? I think we all would agree (hopefully) that it isn’t a building. We all SAY that - or most anyway - but do we really believe it?
Since leaving my church (a Sovereign Grace Ministries church) in April this year, we have visisted a few. Don’t have any peace really about getting too involved. I want to teach my 9 yr old son what it means ot have a personal faith APART from the organized church in a building.
All of the most committed believers I have met have NOT been through a church. I have met them in the world, as we were ministering to others. The believers I want to hang out wiht are the ones doing the dirty work of Jesus…and as I get to know and love them, how can one say this is not being in a church? Spending time serving with them is no different than spending time “serving” in a church building for VBS - only the benefits are better and less distractions I think.
I get to know them, we become friends, we have bible studies, pray for one another - THIS is the church in my opinion. And it sure looks closer to the NT church than most i have visisted or seen. Even organized house churches can get bogged down…I just think as the end times get closer the church will look different, but it won’t act differently. The apostate church will continue on as always. The “church” is certainly not being persecuted right now - but there are certainly sold out passionate believers in the USA that are for doing the work of the kingdom. The real church gets persecuted, no matter WHERE they live and serve.