I know this has been a topic of discussion before, but I am new here and have seen two recent posts about Judah Smith preaching on grace.
Kenrick said: Then i remembered Judah’s 5 Part series on Grace just a couple month’s ago. It didn't’t stop there, I checked their website, and the current podcast is titled Graceland.
Teapot said: Judah Does know about Grace. He preaches a whole series on it. If you are interested, Listen to this. http://www.generationchurch.org/audio. It will be under February 2008.
Based on these posts, I did a little investigating to see if it was true. Had a prosperity preacher found a new path? Well I was a little disappointed by what I found. Although JS is shooting in the right direction, he's not quite on target. You see I am a big grace preacher and have spent the last eight years of my life studying the bible, reading books, meeting in small groups, visiting churches, and debating with my friends/family, all in an effort to get real grace. And in all this time I have discovered a main theme: grace living is easy to understand, but difficult to follow. I say that because no Christian today can doubt God's grace. But for His grace we would not be Christians, right? However, I've discovered that many Christians are afraid of the real message of grace, especially those in MFI type churches. Why? Well they don't like the notion that we are all equal before God. Telling the prominent pastor who's spent 40 years dedicated to serving the church that he is no more justified in God's sight then the drug addicted, gay stripper who genuinely turned to Christ, doesn't usually sit too well. That message scares many Christians who feel they've paid their dues and deserve a "special" place before His thrown. I even heard someone once say that in heaven the mother Theresa's of the world will get to sit at the feet of Jesus, while the newly converted convicts will have to stand in the back. You see grace to them is an area of our faith, it's a good staring point but as we grow and mature we move on from grace to more important biblical principals (that's why they usually let the youth pastor speak on grace – its more elementary in their eyes). However, getting the radical message of grace means that you understand it's not just one area of our faith, but that it's the only area. You see the Gospel is not the beginning of Christianity, it's all of it. Grace is not a balancing factor between irreligious and super religious living (as JS preaches), but rather grace is the essence of Christ. It is why we even exist as Christians! Grace tells us who we are and how we got here. It defines the dichotomy of being sinful and holy at the same time. It provides the answer to God's iron judgment mixed with His unconditional love. But for grace there is no other reason to be a Christian. Sounds simple right?
Well the problem is talking grace and living it are two different things. Its easy for me to tell someone to depend on God's grace, but its much more difficult to do it myself. Why? Because humans have built their entire existence on a graded scale. From family, to school, to sports, to work, to life, we have it ingrained in our minds that the hardest, smartest workers get the best rewards (the As) and the lazy slackers get the worst (the Fs). And that carries right into our Christianity. When the bills are paid, the job is good, the spouse and family are happy, and the bodies healthy, we think "I'm on my spiritual game this month cause God is blessing me." Yet when the late fees pile up, we've been fired from the job, can't get along with the family, and are having health issues we think "What did I do wrong," or "I didn't pray enough this month." The human standard causes us to judge our external situation by what we do for God. Whether we like to admit it our not, our faith becomes a point system where we believe He gives us good things for good behavior, and bad things for bad behavior. I lived this way for many years even though I thought I understood grace. But then one day I had a true light bulb moment. Sitting in church hearing a message on grace I realized everything I had been doing was in vain, a wasted effort to please a God that didn't need my pleasing. The roller coaster of good and bad days to my faith in Christ had ended. Everyday is now Jesus day! Once you get that you remove yourself from the equation, and once you do that you begin to serve Him because you want to, not because you feel like you have to.
A reformed church gets grace! People live the way God intended, in the ultimate freedom that He has called us to. If anyone would like to go deeper in this I recommend starting in Galatians and pick up a copy of the book "The Ragamuffin Gospel." Also there are some good on-line messages and bible study materials by Tim Keller and John Piper. Living in grace is not the easiest thing to do, but it sure is the best thing to.
Reformer, I’m thrilled to see that you get it! Too often pastors and preachers want to spend so much time on more “mature” topics, when it would benefit everyone to simply preach the Gospel often, if not the majority of the time. It is the essence of what we believe and there should be no shame or a feeling of getting behind by talking about it as much as possible. In my opinion, it is the BEST topic for any Sunday, and it seems like most pastors feel like they can only trot it out on Easter and Christmas, and because it’s a visitor-filled Sunday they feel the need to dumb it down and it is poorly presented. I once asked my pastor to preach the Gospel at least once a month and he flat out refused. What does that say about the modern church???
One of my personal moments of spiritual awakening after leaving CBC was the realization that God’s grace was everything I needed, that He loved me completely no matter what, and all the work I’d been doing at CBC didn’t count for anything. God set me free from a lot of hangups regarding works and performance, and it was his Grace that helped me to understand what I was really needing in my life. It wasn’t more activities and programs and leadership, it was simply His Grace, knowing that He accepted me completely, that gave me the daily confidence and peace to face my life. It was as if someone turned on the light for the first time and I really began to understand the Gospel and the rest of the Bible. I spent my whole life trying to win His approval and the approval of others, and He finally told me, “STOP! I already approve of you! Quit working so hard, I’ve already finished it.”
I love this post. Grace, grace and more grace. It is, I believe, the single most underrated attribute of God. What you’ve said here is so true, that we know the bible verses and how to talk up grace, but living it out with ourselves and with others is a different story.
Here’s the thing: I thought I was a grace kind of girl, until my spiritual disciplines withered up. My flaming prayer life became barely a glow of smoldering coals about to die out in a rain storm; my bible became suspect, I didn’t trust how I read it or what was in it, so I put it aside. For not months, but years. And my service in church was stripped away. “Do you love me now, God? Is that grace for real when I’m not productive, when I’m watching too much tv and letting cynicism overtake my tender heart?”
Over and over I hear a resounding Yes. “My grace is more than enough for your effed upness, whatever that is, how ever much of it there is, and for however long it may last. Your humanness cannot outrun my God-graceness.”
Grace to me is simply defined as mercy undeserved. When can I possibly ever earn or deserve mercy? If I could, then it wouldn’t be mercy anymore. That would be called a paycheck.
I want to take your post, though, one step further. I am of the perspective that the grace that the new testament teaches is not just reserved for the elite who say the prayer or have the right beliefs. I reckon that grace, or undeserved mercy, is extended even to the gay pagan stripper whether he knows it or not. The grace, or mercy, of the cross was for all humankind, not just bible thumping christians.
I don’t want to veer off into a debate about Christian reconiliationism (or universalism as some call it). I’m just wanting to highlight that if grace is undeserved mercy, and I think it is, then all of us are getting the rain of it. Buckets of it. We just probably don’t know that.
As ambassadors of Christ, we are meant to be ambassadors of the kingdom of grace and mercy. Can I hug the gay pagan stripper and say Hey, you are already loved and forgiven and getting rained with grace?
What if he doesn’t get cured from gayness to straightness? What if he keeps stripping to pay his rent or buy his lover’s meds cause he has HIV? What if he won’t give up his pagan ways (at this point at least) because he is convinced that the polytheism paganism offers is more inclusive than the monotheism of Christianity? Does grace, or undeserved mercy, find it’s way into those chambers?
I think so. Which is why I think the grace of God is the most underrated thing about God that we know. And I like to imagine that even in the timeless space of eternity that the beauty of that grace will enthrall each of us forever.
Pam, that’s just silly. You and I both know that if Christians really believed Grace like you described it then they couldn’t hate sinners any more. They wouldn’t have anyone to judge so that they could feel better about themselves.
FICM, you crack me up.
I could rally off a bunch of scriptures (that you probably already know) about what happens to those who are not in Christ…but my question is how do you reconcile those scriptures to your belief system? The ones about repenting, God will not be mocked, those who reject Christ will be cast into the lake of fire…being an enemy to God…like 1 Cor 6:9
I’m just curious of how you came to that conclusion, but more importantly how you reconciled that belief to the scriptures.
(if you have already posted on that you can just send me the link…no need to rehash what you have already explained).
Exactly! When were you at CBC? I was 93-97, we should talk more.
Yes, Pam grace does find it way into the darkest chambers of all people. However, my bible does tell me that Christ is the only way to eternity. If one does not believe in Him one cannot be saved. You see grace is abundant and unrestrained. Its always there for everyone at all times, but if you reject it by living in conflict with Christ, then there’s no truth in you. Grace is not about being able to live life any old way you want. Apart from Christ, grace means nothing. Grace is about finding the true freedom in Christ alone and living life freely in and through it. Now if someone has never heard the Gospel or been presented with the true message of God’s grace, then there is an argument for His grace to still open that door to eternity, but knowledge of Him creates that service to Him. A service guided and directed by pure grace.
From my sov grace days, CJ Mahaney taught about “common grace”. Its the grace given to all, not just the chosen. Perhaps that is what Pam is talking about when God blesses those whom He has not called.
I am reformed to an extent, (Eph 1 talks of us being predestined before the world began) however I dont believe its our place to guess/judge who’s been chosen or not (as I saw in Sov Grace) so Pam I like your attitude towards the “apparant” non-Christian. OUR attitude should be one of Love to everyone and let God choose who He will.
Exactly. I don’t want to start another debate on free will vs. sovereignty, but the bottom line is that even if God foresaw ahead of time who would and wouldn’t receive the Ultimate Grace, WE CAN’T POSSIBLY KNOW so we need to treat everyone with the same Grace God has provided us. This is why I personally think the doctrine or dogma of predestination is not necessarily un-true, but it’s not pragmatic in that it tends to foster attitudes of us vs. them, which is not Grace at all. I think the point of Ephesians 1 was to show us that God planned to show us Grace all along, it wasn’t some afterthought after we screwed things up. He meant to do it, and that gives us the hope and confidence that it’s always going to be there for us.
Hey RP, I’ve blogged about this several times over the last couple of years. Read this POST I wrote asking some questions about when does God’s grace run out and can that grace overcome the gates of hell…does mercy triumph over judgment?
(And here’s a LINK for all my articles about my hope for universal reconciliation…if you or any other readers are interested in exploring this perspective…)
Let me be clear: I wholeheartedly believe that Jesus is the One who reconciles us to God, and Jesus alone. Where the debate lies is in the question of whether or not people have to qualify to enjoy God’s grace through Christ by right living and right beliefism. Does grace cease to be grace when there are conditions on it?
Well, JAIM, no I’m not talking about “common grace,” as if there are levels of grace. The older I have gotten, the more I am hopeful that the extravagant, wasteful grace of God is for everybody, whether repentant or not. I no longer picture the Father holding back grace until somebody gets the recipe for living right.
Craig asked (I think you were talking to me…?) :
Check the links above that I provided. For me, yes, I have reconciled these beliefs with the word of God.
(we’re painting our house today so i’m very limited being online. this is a very meaningful discussion for me. I am definitely interested in continuing this dialog with those who are inclined to do so…)
Pam, I took a look through your blog articles. I have to thank you for voicing some of my own doubts and giving me stuff to think about. I’m with you in that I can’t understand how anyone could honestly believe Calvinism in light of a God who IS love.
Whenever I hear Christians talk about Hell, I have a picture in my head of Nelson Muntz saying, “Ha ha! You’re going to burn forever!” Christians know that their friends and family and neighbors are going to eternal damnation and they act like they’re cool with it, just as long as they have their own ticket punched. Does that strike anyone else as being really twisted and mean?
When I was in college, I worked at a restaurant and all of my coworkers knew I was a Christian. One of them, a non-practicing Catholic came up to me and said, “You believe I’m going to Hell, don’t you!” Even though I knew she was toying with me, I was flabbergasted and got really embarrassed because I honestly didn’t know what to say. In spite of all the evangelical indoctrination, where I could have started my well-rehearsed sermon on how to be saved, instead I was tongue-tied because my heart knew that somehow this was wrong. I was feeling the pinch of conscience that said, “How dare you condemn anyone?” For years I’ve struggled with the competing ideas of justice and grace, and the fatalistic view of judgment seems to contradict who God says He is.
I realize that I’m commenting on some material from your blog that is not here, so I won’t debate it further outside of that context. Let me just say that I’m beginning to be of the opinion that my hope is that all will be saved.
hmmm, pam when I get some more time I’ll read thru your blogs – I’m definitely new to this grace thing having been raised at CBC and then being told I was at a grace church while at Sov Grace, but didnt see anything resembling what I think grace should look like.
I need enlightenment here…. I mean if God chooses us, which is in scripture, what kind of grace is given to those to whom He’s not chosen?
Ok I hate myself here because I sound like those reformers at sov grace that cant see their way out of the paper bag of their own doctrine but I really dont understand this stuff.
I like FICM’s attitude – Our hearts should be that ALL will be saved – that is the fathers’ heart.
methinks ignorance is bliss
I’m gonna leave this doctrinal sh*t for the other guys
Off subject but I have a question–What’s up with pastors and golf? Golf? Seriously?
Pam, I agree great discussion. I checked out your links and found some very interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing. I know there’s all sorts of ideas and thoughts on Calvinism, Universalism, Armeniaism (sp?), and every other ism that’s out there. And to each ism there are valid points on each side. The reality is that there are people who stretch and abuse anything and everything to fit their particular purpose/agenda. That’s why I personally try not to get caught up in doctrinal debates. I never went to bible school or seminary and only really care when someone is preaching false doctrine, such as Jesus was not the Son of God, you have to earn your way into heaven, or my favorite, God wants everyone to be rich. These are things I will speak out against. With grace, I don’t think anyone has to qualify for or earn it, otherwise it wouldn’t be grace, right? However, if one lives in conflict with grace what is the purpose of it? In my opinion it would hold no value. The bottom line is that we all need to fully accept God’s full acceptance of us. So if someone does not acknowledge that Christ died to provide them with complete grace, and does nothing to follow Him as He commands, how can we say they belong with God?
And you have to be careful not to preach grace the same way the other side preaches works. Case in point, you said in one of your posts:
This implies that bad people deserve more punishment then good people, just like the works based belief that that good people deserve more rewards then bad people. Both examples go against grace. Hitler has as much of God’s grace as Mother Theresa, however there is a biblical command to act on that grace. Not for the sake of reward or punishment but for the sake of Christ. After all but for Christ, there is no grace. So if Hitler accepted Christ and Mother Teresa didn’t, who do you think would spend eternity with Him? If you think Hitler has no place with God because of his bad actions on earth then you are saying the same thing as the other side just in a different form. I believe that whoever accepts Christ has His unending grace no matter what they’ve done, but they have to accept it. Does that make sense?
I think Pam can defend herself, but I will say I think she was asking a rhetorical question to make her point. The idea that all sinners are equally deserving of absolute punishment seems extreme to most people. The book of Romans tells us that we deserve to be separated from God simply because we were born! How unfair is that? You don’t even have to willfully and conscientiously object to God’s love to be deserving of the worst possible punishment. A lot of Christians will tell you that unless you do exactly as they say, you will definitely go to Hell, do not pass GO, do not collect $200. What about those who have never heard the Gospel? Or here’s a good one, what about about children who never reach a place of maturity to make a decision to believe? Are they going to Hell, too? I think most people would like to believe that God has special grace for kids, but how is that different than someone who has never had the chance to hear the Gospel? We’re ready to condemn Muslims, Buddhists, pagans and others in spite of the fact that their only view of God is the wrong one. I’m not promoting Universalism here, but I am asking an honest question as to how Christians can assume that a God full of Grace gives some people the shaft when it comes to any opportunity for a relationship with Him. Christians seem to be OK with this view and seem downright unsympathetic. If most Christians truly believed this, wouldn’t it be more common for all Christians to spend their lives doing missionary work? Wouldn’t you be personally moved to do everything you could so that everyone might have the opportunity to hear the Gospel? Wouldn’t it move you so completely that you could not rest until you had spent your life working towards the goal of preaching the Gospel to everyone? So…why are we “here” talking about stuff instead of being super busy about what we believe? Or do we not really believe it? Or is it because God’s Grace transcends our seeming inability (or even unwillingness) to preach the Gospel to all people? If the World depends upon us to hear about Grace in order to receive it, then billions of people are DOOMED TO HELL. How many people are going to burn in a lake of fire because you spent the day blogging instead of evangelizing?
The point I am trying to make here is that if Grace depends only upon our ability to share it with others, then it seems to be back in the domain of our works and not God’s work! If Grace is about what God can do for us, then let us not mistake it for what we can do for others. If God’s Grace truly transcends our inability to share it with the whole world, then it must be big enough to work outside of our present dogma; that is, our view on how to get your Heaven ticket punched may be too narrow and exclusive. I’m not implying that there is any way to God other than Jesus, but I am implying it may involve other things beyond the Sinner’s Prayer after an Eternity production.
Green Pen said:
July 22nd, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Off subject but I have a question–What’s up with pastors and golf? Golf? Seriously?
I think it is because of the lifestyle image they have all bought into. You notice none of them ever talk about bowling on Friday night in any of their sermons! ha ha
FICM, yes, I have quietly been uneasy about the doctrine of eternal damnation in hell for many, many years. About two years ago I begin to pray and read in earnest about this. I was determined to reconcile my picture of God with eternal damnation. Really, I was. Yet when I began to dig and study, I was startled to discover that the doctrine of ED is not as straightforward and universally accepted as I had supposed. There are many essentials to the Christian faith that are universally agreed upon, such as the Sonship of Jesus Christ and redemption through the work of the cross. However, eternal damnation (or eternal judgment) is not one of them. The greatest scholars are not in agreement about this. Many seasoned church leaders and qualified theologians are not in agreement about this.
That caught my attention. And as I began to read and reflect and search out it was like stumbling upon a beautiful mountain vista in my own backyard that I had no idea even existed.
Ok, I hear the protests, what about judgment and all those passages about judgment? I am not disputing God judging every person…what I am disputing is that hell will be everlasting, and that not being a born again bible thumping correct doctrine person is an automatic sentence, a mandatory Measure 11 type of sentence, for eternal damnation…I reject this without reservation.
I am a hopeful reconcilationist.
This means that I hope in the ministry of reconciliation of God to continue beyond the grave.
This means that I am hopeful that the redemption of the cross overcomes the gates of hell.
This means that I am of the hope that the banquet table of grace and mercy is forever open to anyone. I am not saying that all roads lead to God. I am saying that no matter what road a person is on Jesus will find his way to you, in this life or even the afterlife.
(go read the links I posted earlier for bible refs and such….)
Jeremiah said:
Well, I disagree. I think the point of this passage is to show the extent of mercy, not the extent of judgment. In light of the kazillion other passages about the character of God being mercifiul (like one of my faves in Lam. 3, The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases {as in like never?}, his mercies never come to an end {as in like never?}, they are new every morning, great is the faithfulness of the Lord…{like how great? Forever great???}
The Reformer said:
And you have to be careful not to preach grace the same way the other side preaches works. Case in point, you said in one of your posts:
“Does eternal damnation fit the crime? Is this a just sentence for the Adolf Hitler’s of the world as well as the kind atheists who help make the world a better place?â€
This implies that bad people deserve more punishment then good people, just like the works based belief that that good people deserve more rewards then bad people. Both examples go against grace. Hitler has as much of God’s grace as Mother Theresa, however there is a biblical command to act on that grace. Not for the sake of reward or punishment but for the sake of Christ. After all but for Christ, there is no grace. So if Hitler accepted Christ and Mother Teresa didn’t, who do you think would spend eternity with Him? If you think Hitler has no place with God because of his bad actions on earth then you are saying the same thing as the other side just in a different form. I believe that whoever accepts Christ has His unending grace no matter what they’ve done, but they have to accept it. Does that make sense?
Ok, I think I hear what you are saying. This is a good point. In my evangelical mindset I have always imagined that people fit into one of two categories for eternity: heavenly bliss forever and ever, or gnashing of teeth in hell’s fire forever and ever. One or the other.
I think I get your point, however, the big difference between works and grace determining outcome is that grace is undeserved.
Since I define grace this way I am then able to see how undeserving God haters can end up on the receiving end of grace. What does the bible teach us about God’s strategy in this? That it’s his kindness that leads people to repentance. (Rom 2)
As for judgment, what if judgment is for the purpose of reconciliation rather than eternal consequence? What if judgment, like all forms of discipline, is designed to lead the soul towards repentance and reconciliation?
These are the things I think about nowadays. I cannot know for sure. The greatest scholars do not know for sure. So I humbly land on the side of hope…hopeful that the grace and mercy of God outruns the hardest of sinners and fieriest of judgments. It’s my hope. That’s what I’m hanging onto… (thanks Reformer and FICM for reading my links. This is a subject that has been startling for me and has become somewhat of a passion of mine to think and write about. My most provocative posts and responses from readers at my blog have been about hell and questions of grace.
I have been told about a group of pastors in Vancouver who meet with one another on a monthly basis to wrestle this very same thing out. They cannot do so freely in their own congregations {for obvious reasons} so these church leaders choose to meet with their peers and wrestle with it openly. It’s not just bloggers who are uneasy with the traditional doctrine of eternal damnation….}
Ok, one more thing:
Jeremiah said:
Then it’s not grace. Grace is not an outcome from an action. It’s undeserved. It’s clemency from one’s crimes. And besides, you are totally shredding the whole John 3 discourse of Christ with Nicodemus when you assert this.
Pam: I have not read your blog but I will. Here are some thoughts for now.
So, why not eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die? If I have eternity with Christ no matter how I live or believe, why not just go crazy for 70 years knowing that the eternal result is the same?
My theology professor friend and I have an on-going and completely unresolved discussion about the conflict between a totally loving God and eternal damnation. One of the big challenges in the discussion is not throwing out an entire set of scriptures of another. We have to assume that both sets of scriptures are legitimate. We have to figure out where our interpretation is incongruent, not the scriptures. To take Pam’s view seems to throw out an entire set of scriptures that deal with the results of the final judgment.
This topic really challenges what we have been taught whether we believe in “magic word prayers” or universal reconciliation and what we want the Bible to say. I want to believe in annihilation. I would like to believe in universal reconciliation, it would make everything so much easier and neater.
In my ministry, I have to make it about relationship with God or no relationship with God. We don’t get to decide anything anyway. For that reason, it makes the most sense to allow the heaven and hell to be all about eternity, beginning today, with Jesus or without Jesus.
Had a visitor. Walked away from my computer for over an hour. Can’t remember how I wanted to conclude that thought. So, excuse the abrupt end to this post.
No you don’t. Just have another look at them from a different perspective. Song of Sol 8, for example, talks about Love being stronger than death;
-discipline and judgment are for the purpose of reconcilation (1 Cor 11; Heb 12)
-God didn’t send Christ to condemn the world (to hell) but to save it (Jn3:17)
-Death cannot separate us from the love of God (Rom 8)
And on and on…it’s a matter of interpretation and perspective. I respect your perspective, and I will not tell you that you are wrong and I am right, or that you are throwing scriptures out the window just because you don’t agree with me. I’ll ask you to kindly do the same. It is a tradition of Christ followers to debate and employ critical thought in order to discover not only what we believe but how and why. In this life there will always, always be disagreement. But let’s not allow that to lead to discord and judging one another’s commitment to scriptural integrity.
FICM, In an earlier post above I wrote:
You also asked:
I 100% totally understand the point that you are making. And I couldn't agree more that Christians don't do enough to share God's word. Primarily because the are too busy preaching at each other, attending stupid conferences, camps, retreats and the like, trying to hype each other up into a frenzy to do nothing but return back to church the next week. However, I think its a cop-out to say we have all the pressure on us to make sure people aren't doomed to hell. That is a gross statement of guilt and works. I did not grow up in a Christian home. Neither of my parents nor very few of my siblings are Christians. In fact my mom considers herself an agnostic (which is a step because 10 years ago she said she was an atheist). And for the last four years I have not been actively participating in a local church so I now have more non-Christian friends then Christian ones. Plus I work in Hollywood, which is a dark, dark place. I talk Jesus and the bible with all of them many times over. I never share in a condemning, preachy way but more in an intellectual discussion about faith, church, and grace (a lot like we are doing). Plus I live out my faith in a way that shows His realness in me. I would never assume or project on any of them that they are going to be damned to hell. I am not the judge or the jury, and I'm glad its up to God and not me. However, I cannot get behind the theory that we can all just live life without acceptance of Christ and faith in God (and God only) and think that we will still spend eternity with Him. He has to look at us through the lens of Christ, covered under His perfection and blood, or He can't be in our filthy presence. And if one does not accept it, how can we claim they are still going to be there. No this doesn’t mean I'm preaching fire insurance or some silly sinners prayer after an eternity play (hilarious reference by the way). I'm talking genuine faith, being justified in Christ while still sinful in humanity. And you're right, none of us has any right to say who is and who isn't getting into heaven. That's just silly. But I will share with my friends and family that there is only one Savior we are called to serve.
I totally agree. I'm hanging onto the hope that everyone will know that great joy of living and serving in Gods unending grace. Ever since I got what it was all about, my life has never been better!
Exactly! There is only one Savior on which we can believe. Grace is always present but we must accept it. And the law still exists as a sign post to point us to that grace. Without grace we all fall short, no matter what we do to “please” Him, which goes back to the whole point of this post.
Without addressing specific quotes here, I am just going to throw some more thoughts into the discussion:
1–I believe one more precise definition of grace is “the ability to do what God wants me to do,” or as Vine’s states: “the power and equipment for ministry.”
Sure, He provides rain for the just and the unjust. But is God going to gift (charis/grace) me to sin? No. That I have breath is because of His grace. But I cannot then logically go on to say that everything I do while I breathe is through His grace.
2–John 3:36 really grabbed my attention one time and I spent a few weeks studying and pondering it more deeply. It says, He who believes in the Son has everylasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
I know what the word “abides” means, and that makes this a terrifying verse. But in the study of the wrath of God, I gained a greater appreciation for the Cross and grace.
3–Eternal rewards (positive and negative) are God’s domain. He is the Judge. There are many, many verses about His justice and mercy, so I can only conclude that whatever He decides on that Day will be consistent with what He has revealed about Himself. I’m not going to judge a person’s eternal state ahead of time.
(Also consistent with Scripture is the admonition to evaluate doctrine, so if someone comes on here saying “Aha! Don’t judge my MFI SP!” I will ignore it.
)
4–I have been thinking for quite awhile that I am missing some big component of Christian life that was foundational to the apostles. When I read Romans 6, II Cor. 6 and Hebrews 6, I get the sense that there is a simpler way to live IN Christ — not just FOR Christ. It’s a matter of prayer for me.
If others are thinking about these things, I hope my own thoughts help.
grace
Pam,
I don’t think that I was judging you. I don’t think I even said that you were wrong. It would be fair for you to infer that I don’t think your perspective is balanced. I did not intend to judge your commitment to scriptural integrity. In my post, I did not take a stand one way or another. I simply acknowledged the tensions of the issue. I began by saying that my on-going discussions on this issue are unresolved.
If my point was not clear, let me try again. On almost every issue, our general tendency is to read scriptures from the perspective of what we want or what we have been taught. With that in mind, we weigh the importance of texts and interpret them in ways that are biased towards certain positions and against others. As I read your posts and your blog, it seems/appears that you have a definite leaning towards a universalistic approach and against a more “holiness” approach (not the words I wanted to use but my vocab failed me). Both can be defended in the Bible, but not proves as “the way” without excluding the other, in my opinion. I hope that is a bit clearer.
The tension is God inspired if you believe that the Bible is God inspired. To me the tension drives me to want to better understand the nature of God. It appears to have done the same for you.
As I read your blog, you mention Barth, Lewis and van Balthasar as universalists. I don’t think it is as simple as that. You say regarding Barth.
Hope means that it may not be the case. Barth and others know it may not be the case because of other scriptural evidence. I think the Romans, 1 Cor and Hebrews scriptures you gave above all have flip sides to them. All I am saying is that we have to acknowledge that.
Let me again say, at this point in my life, I don’t truly know what is going to happen. What I do know is that the joy of eternity is in Christ and not living forever. With that in mind, I want to focus people on Christ, not fear of damnation.
One challenge is that we are discussing a topic that is the subject of volumes and volumes. Yet, we hope to communicate it all in a short post on the internet.
Jeremiah, believing in Christ is one thing; but you asserted that people have to be born again to receive grace. I do not think a careful study of John 3 gives this message.
There is much to discuss here, and we haven’t even touched in the ancient Greek ideas of hell or how many scholars have a different view of the biblical Greek for “eternal” (some argue that it means “for an age” rather than forever…, but I digress…)
In the spirit of fellowship, I can live peacefully with those who I cannot agree with. Evaluating doctrine is good, as Anna has pointed out. It seems to me that everyone of us in this discussion places a high value on scripture and it’s authority. At least we’re agreed on that!
To surmise where I am coming from, I do believe in law and grace and judgment and mercy. I have hope that judgment and hell or not eternal and that sinners can still respond to the grace of Christ beyond the veil of death. I do not think that our vapor of a life here, blink and it’s gone, has the ultimate authority to determine our eternal home. Kind of like CS Lewis’ The Great Divorce. Except without the bus.
Ya’ll have been great. Great discussion. I did not do any house painting today. Played with my kids and got online. But I do need to get back to it.
If anyone is interested in further discourse about the hope of universal reconciliation click the links to my blog I provided earlier, or email me for a list of suggested readings. I have developed a small library of resources.
Peace {and grace!} to you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(ps. thanks Reformer for kicking up a lively and engaging discussion. The more I talk with others about grace and judgment and h – e- double toothpics the more I realize how essential it is to avoid becoming dogmatic. I have a bent towards being dogmatic and opinionated, yet the older I get the more I discover the wisdom of Mellowing Out!)
Hey Fred, our posts must have crossed each other in cyberspace.
So hey, thanks for clarifying where you were coming from. The internet is great, yet limiting in how we communicate and as you’ve pointed out, in how much as well.
I appreciate what you are saying. I did think it was judgmental before, but now I hear something different.
Thanks, too, for taking the time to read through my blog posts about this topic. You are right, I do have leanings, unapologetically leaning hard into a position of a universal reconciliationist. I used to say I was a Convinced Reconciliationist, until recently. A pastor and her husband told me they were compelled to listen to what I was talking about, but were uneasy with my assertion that I was “convinced.”
This clicked for me, of course, how can any of us really, really know? So I now label myself as a Hopeful Reconcilationist.
The posts you read were written at the time I was using more dogmatic language like “convinced.” IT is more tempered now, I think, as evidenced (hopefully!) from this discussion. Even the great theologian Barth, as you have noted, said it was his hope.
Thanks again, Fred, for helping me know better where you are coming from.
Well thank you Pam for sharing all of your insight into this area and for being so open. It’s never easy to swim upstream and I always appreciate someone who can thoughtfully and clearly present their arguments and opinions (even if I don’t fully agree all the time.) Keep watch for some further posts on this topic and others like it. I believe that there is a major movement across America (well maybe not in the South yet) of new churches being planted that are preaching something different then the 3 Ps: performance, prosperity, and principles. I was on the front end of this wave back in 2000 when a group of us planted a grace based church in Portland. Now I am working with another group trying to get the same thing started in Los Angeles. Slowly people are walking out on the old way of “church†and starting new ones that address these issues and stay away from those damn Ps.
Fred Flinstone, you wrote: “So, why not eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die? If I have eternity with Christ no matter how I live or believe, why not just go crazy for 70 years knowing that the eternal result is the same?”
There’s a tiny booklet called “The Outcome of Infinite Grace” that I highly recommend you read as it lists seven reasons why we should believe now and not “just go crazy for 70 years.” You can read it for free, online, if you don’t want to buy a copy:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
Peace and grace to you!
Betty,
Why didn’t you just walk over and give me the book? Or give it to Barney? We carpool to the quarry everyday.
Got to go Pebbles is crying and my brontosaurus burger is getting cold.
Fred, I sent it over TWICE via Barney, and both times your out-of-control Dino ate it before it got to you. I thought it was best to deliver in this format because of that.
This is a great topic. FICM, I can completely relate to what you said in your initial post on this topic. I clearly remember praying on my dorm room floor back in undergrad school (no, not PBC, pre-PBC, actually), begging emotionally for the Lord to tell me what my work would be for him, how I could serve him, and he said to me distinctly, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (John 6:29) I was undone. The wonderful, horrible truth that all I have to do, to be adopted, to be grafted into the vine forever, to be part of Christ’s Body, is to BELIEVE in Jesus, to believe in who he is, in his finished work on the cross. I could never do anything or enough to earn more love or favor or affection from the Lord than I already have from him.
I’ve had numerous other intense moments like that one, where the Lord has tried to sear into me the truth of the Gospel, but my human nature is stubborn. “Getting” grace in our heads and “getting” it in our hearts are two very different things. I can appreciate that many of you wrestle with this same issue.
One question, given the comments and discussion here: Are we confusing the term “grace” with the term “salvation?” I think the Bible is very clear that belief in Jesus is the only way to be reconciled to God, to experience salvation. Are grace and salvation syonymous? I don’t think so.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8).” Grace is the means to salvation, but not salvation itself. We are saved by grace and through faith. Grace is part of God’s character, and I believe that he extends it to many, even unbelievers, and to believers who do messed up things (which would be ALL of us) but that does not mean that all will be reconciled to God. Belief in Christ, calling on Christ, putting one’s trust in Christ, is the ONLY way to salvation. I just don’t see any other message in the Bible.
I truly hope, as many others have expressed here, that all will be saved–from themselves, from life without knowing Christ–that none should perish. I don’t believe this will happen, however. I don’t see that the Bible supports that. “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Mt. 22:14). I wish it weren’t true, but it is, and I have to trust that God knows what he’s doing.
Obviously, this is a gargantuan topic, one we probably won’t reach full consensus on, but I sure appreciate the discussion.
Does Grace = Salvation? I guess the fundamental issue we’ve been addressing here is whether God’s grace exists outside of our choice to believe it and receive it. And I think this is where it gets weird because as someone here implied (or maybe I read it elsewhere) is that if God’s Grace is all-powerful Grace then it can pursue us through eternity until eventual reconciliation. On the other hand, it would seem that if we think that someone’s refusal of God’s Grace is enough to render it ineffective, doesn’t that imply that God’s Grace is not all-encompassing? If by our choice we can nullify the Grace of God, then it would seem we have a leg up on God! If God truly is the perfect embodiment of Love and Grace then it would seem that it would be hard to define any situation where His Love and Grace could not pursue us to the ends of time and the universe and beyond.
As fallen humans, we’re so accustomed to the idea of grace being conditional that the idea of unconditional grace seems incomprehensible. So it’s easy to see how we can put our perceptions of Grace upon God and even Scripture. I’m not trying to say that Scripture is necessarily wrong, but it may be that we don’t understand it fully, or that the writers were using human words that were ill-suited to the task of such a mind-boggling concept. As Pam pointed out, many traditions about Hell are potentially ill-founded – and so as well our ideas about Grace may be ill-founded as well.
Let me ask a very difficult question: What does one *do* to receive Salvation? I think if we ponder it carefully, we see that the necessary ingredient is simply BELIEF. That Belief is simply deciding to acknowledge what God has already done, past tense. If the work of Salvation has already been performed through Christ, then there is no work left for us to do, and it is up to us to simply believe that it is true. Does the lack of belief make Salvation any less true? I think many Christians argue that without belief there is no Salvation, but I can’t help but wonder that it always exists in spite of our unbelief. We’re so used to imposing a perspective of works on the idea, that it becomes difficult for us to look at it any other way. Perhaps an analogy is in order.
Suppose I told you that I had gone to the bank and opened an account in your name and that I had deposited $1 Billion. For the sake of argument, let us suppose that I actually had done this and was not telling you some lie or trying to play a joke. It is entirely within your power to choose whether to believe me or not. If you do believe, you’ll get to spend the money! If you think I’m lying, then you fail to take advantage of the wealth in your bank account. Your disbelief does not alter the fact that there is indeed more money than you could possibly spend in your bank account. In the same way that the fine line of belief separates you from absolute wealth, that same fine line of belief separates us from Grace & Salvation. It exists whether we take advantage of it or not, and to say that Salvation requires us to do something is like saying it requires you to believe that the money exists for it to exist.
Jesus died for the sins of ALL mankind and paid the price for EVERYONE. If this is the case, then why is Grace only given to those who believe? Or should I say, why is Grace only given to those who believe in this present life on planet Earth? Or is it possible that there is no deadline for belief and that belief eventually comes to everyone? If, at the Final Judgment, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess – that is, everyone believes – and believing is the only ingredient for receiving that Grace – won’t Grace be given to all? But in the same chapter of Revelations we also see that God will judge EVERYONE for what they’ve done, and that seems to imply that even Christians will be judged, and that judgment may not include the idea of Hell we are accustomed to, if we come to the conclusion that I just stated above.
I’m honestly wrestling with this, and I do expect someone object to this way of thinking. It seems to contradict what we’ve always been taught, that Grace is conditional upon us somehow, in spite of an all-Gracious God.
But there may be a third answer that also seems to be implied in Revelations. And that is there will be those who will be faced with proof of the knowledge of God and still reject Him and Redemption. Satan Himself is already doomed to Hell because He knew full well what he was doing when he decided to rebel. The passage states that there are those who will follow him until the end and God will indeed judge them. But it strongly implies that there is no gray area on whether or not these people understand the implications of their decision. Personally, I’m having a hard time believing that the black-and-white-ness of decision & judgment is hinged upon our short time as mortals on planet Earth. It may indeed be true, but for the sake of billions, I truly hope that it is not the case.
Jeremiah said:
This is a great question. Jesus often used hyperbole to make a point. He exaggerated things to teach a spiritual truth, like when he taught about it’s better to cut off your hand if it offends you, or when he said “it’s better for a millstone to be around your neck…” I think I learned in bible class that hyperbole is a common practice among Middle Eastern languages.
Anyway, is Judas in heaven or hell? I don’t know. Will he ultimately be reconciled to God if he is not already/ I hope so. Is Jesus condemning him here in this passage? I don’t think so. Otherwise God himself needs to repent for having created Judas in the first place.
What’s interesting is that Jesus had a friendship with this man. Jesus, who constantly called out the Pharisees for religious hypocrisy, is not recorded ever having done so with Judas. This infers sincerity on Judas’ part when he was a part of the twelve. It infers that he was a bonafide disciple of Jesus and not just a poser out to pilfer a few coins out of the money box. (surely there wasn’t much to pilfer anyway!)
I do not think there is a conflict with this passage and the hope of reconciliation of every person to their Creator.
(FICM said:)
Totally where I’m at too!
This makes me think of a song DC Talk sings (probably a cover of an older song…sorry) called I Wish We’d All Been Ready. I really like the song, but the lyrics make me wonder. Here’s a sample:
The song ends with the life changing lyrics:
Damn-it FICM…you’ve been left behind.
FICM, I see where your going with this and excellent points. You bring up a lot of thought provoking ideas. I too have wrestled with so much over the last few years. Its very difficult at times. And I’ve heard a lot of arguments against the full truth of the scriptures (i.e. they were written so long ago, a lot of things got lost in translation, some of the books were left out, etc.). However uncertain as it all seems I believe God is sovereign over everything and directed the compilation and interpretation of scripture so long ago. That’s were my faith comes in I guess. Faith that all this somewhat crazy stuff is 100% real.
By the way people excellent discussion. This has been extremely interesting and beneficial. Plus a DC Talk reference…it just doesn’t get any better then that! I just loved those COLORED PEOPLE, cause they taught me that JESUS IS STILL ALL RIGHT. Guess that’s why they call me a JESUS FREAK.
That’s a Larry Norman song—the original Jesus person. When I was a kid, we sang it once with these big smiley face things. I held mine upside down, which is prob. more fitting.
And I wasn’t even homeschooled. Go figure.
That song “I Wish We’d All Been Ready” is a remake of a song I sang in the 70′s (I know. I’m old.) It was originally about the rapture — which is a whole ‘nuther subject.
To me, this grace/hell question does not hinge on “is God fair?” — but “Do I believe what the Bible says about God?”
Our Bible study just finished Revelation, which reveals God in a completely different perspective than many other books. Revelation deals with God’s wrath and judgment, as well as the reaction of those who witness it. When I read this, am I offended by God or do I trust Him?
Job (the oldest book of the Bible) deals with the same dilemma, and I think God’s answer to Job is worth considering.
Jeremiah, I find it rather interesting that you reference Romans 9 as argument for eternal damnation. Because Romans 9-11 is Paul’s personal dilemma concerning whether or not all of the Jews will be saved. And his conclusion is: He doesn’t know! He calls it a mystery! In the end, he seems hopefully confident that all of the Jews will in fact be saved. And this is after he gives the famous quote you mentioned regarding the Jews, that in spite of not all of them having heard the Gospel, they had the Law of God and were without excuse. If anyone has/had reason to be judged eternally, it is the Jews who reject Christ. Yet he says that they will ultimately receive Salvation.
If God is willing to give Grace to those who were the most to blame for their position of judgment, will not God show Grace to everyone else?
As an exercise, I would encourage everyone to reread chapters 9-11 as whole to understand the context of what Paul is saying. Most popular dogma locks onto the verses you mentioned without considering the context. To use this passage as ammo for a judgmental God is missing the point a bit, in my opinion.
As far as referencing the book of Job, I think it is important to understand the point that God was trying to make in that He is completely sovereign. Yes, that’s true, but let us not confuse it with the issue at hand; that is, who is God and does He show Grace to everyone? These two things are NOT entwined in my mind. God can be sovereign and still show Grace to all. It does not necessarily follow that if God is sovereign that he must also show arbitrary judgment as it pleases Him in some mysterious manner that is unknown to us. This latter assumption puts us on the shaky ground of not being able to define the true nature of God. Is God Love all of the time, or is He Love most of the time except when someone pisses Him off? Does He show Grace to all, or is it just to those who meet some requirement unknown to us? A lot of Christians seem to prefer the latter definition because it fits within their dogma that God will judge people eternally. Rather than defining God by who He is, they allow God to morph into something that fits their beliefs about right & wrong, and mercy vs. judgment. Personally, I’d rather define God’s character in the light of what He says about himself and what the Scriptures say about Him. This means defining God to be someone who is abounding in kindness, slow to anger, mercy that is always new, and love that is everlasting. If we truly believe that God defines Himself this way, then we must be careful not to create dogma that seems to contradict these absolute qualities of God.
Hey Jeremiah, Jesus also rebuked satan in Peter. That in and of itself does not prove that someone is specifically destined for a wicked existence.
Destiny. What I hear you saying with all the verses you slung around is that people have a predetermined destiny that cannot be avoided. If this is what you believe the bible teaches and if this is how you believe God to be, then consider this: perhaps it is my destiny to challenge religious tradition.
Ok, those are all great verses, and Anna, in her effort to try to keep us all lined up with the word of God, overlooks one important factor: the bible is often not so simple to interpret with one universal truth meant for all, and we each bring to the bible our own biases and interpret scripture through those presuppositions and filters. I do it too. I interpret everything in the bible through a lens of God’s mercy and kindness. Do I err? Probably. But so do you. So do all of us. It is arrogant to suppose that any one of us is 100 percent accurate in our understanding of the word of God which was written in a language two thousand years ago that is not even spoken anymore. The greatest ancient Greek and Hebrew scholars spend their careers splicing and dicing words to extract as much information as they can. And they often debate what they are finding and what it means.
All of this to say, I read the same passages that you do, but I hear something differently through the filter of understanding I have about God.
What about those troublesome verses that, at prima facie, seem to suggest that God creates some people specifically to have an effed up wicked life only to end up in hell forever? This, my friend, does not fit with the rest of what the bible has to say about God. It does not match the myriad of passages about his mercy and justice. Therefore, I have to wonder about the limitations of translation and the question of interpretation and literary license. (For instance, my bible professor said not to create doctrine from proverbs since they are meant to be read as pithy sayings. So I have to take that into account when you quote proverbs to me; that one verse in and of itself does not match what Paul wrote about over and over again in reference to God’s kindness for creation and redemption for mankind.
Sigh. We don’t agree. I’m ok with that. Really. You ask some great questions, which I thoroughly appreciate. It forces me to think deep and hard.
I love God. You love God. I am hopeful that we’ll be hanging out together in the place with golden streets. And if I meet Judas there, I’ll be sure to introduce you to him.
Pam, thanks so much for your perspective here. You have such a gracious way of sharing your opinions. This thread could have easily become a war field of differing opinions and Bible verse slinging. It’s too bad I never met you before I moved away from Portland!
Jeremiah,
Ouch! You’re so right, I filtered that verse rather heavily, didn’t I? Thanks for keeping me honest!
I agree that God’s sense of justice needs to be satisfied. And that is why Christ had to take the punishment of sin upon Himself. Yet, I can’t help but remind you that this was God defining Himself to Moses before Christ, so the perspective is skewed. We are no longer under the Law and punishment. I don’t think I can agree with the idea that in a post-Cross world that God will still punish me for the sins of my ancestors nor will He punish my children for what I’ve done. Also, it doesn’t say HOW he will punish us for our sins or even when. To associate this verse with a Heaven/Hell argument is stretching it a bit, don’t you think? As Pam pointed out, the Jews don’t believe in Hell in spite of said verses.
Regardless, I still struggle because there are many more verses that seem to indicate God’s wrath will fall upon those who believe. The book of Hebrews details how God’s mercy is brought to us through Christ’s work as the final sacrifice. But this message is given to us with a warning not to disregard the grace we have received or we run the risk of falling into judgment. “It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
And the struggle continues…
haha Oops! Now everyone knows my alternate identity!