“Quit Being Parasites”
Posted on July 26th, 2008 by The Reformer into the Why We Blog categoryAn anonymous blogger recently posted this classic example of anger at us for what we do:
"How easy is it to point our fingers at others, especially those in authority. Jesus says pray for those who are in authority. Government, church, wherever. Sure no one’s perfect. I’m not perfect. Big surprise. We’ve all fallen short of the glory of God. Pastor’s are in fact people. I bet you would be the people writing blogs on King David when he killed Uriah and slept with his wife. You would point out everything wrong with them.
The fact is, as mature believers and those who are maturing daily, picking up our cross, daily. We must know that everyone is prone to weakness and everyone is tempted according to their own desires. Pastor Judah likes clothes, who cares; you may like to look at pornography in your room alone, but lucky you, your identity is hidden and your probably doing squat for the kingdom of Heaven.
In conclusion, why waste time writing about and pointing out other’s faults. My mother always told me, when you point your finger at somebody else, your in fact point 4 fingers directly at yourself. Remember the point is “practice and obey” not “point out and discuss”. Go buy a coffee for a stranger, when they ask you why your doing that, tell them about how much God has given up for you, and how much He loves them. Start a bible club. Start a cell group. Get plugged into a church. Do something! Quit being parasites and sucking up everything you want and need from local churches, and then go about talking filth about them."
Now I realize that it's hard for some people to comprehend questioning authority. Christians are always taught to "practice and obey," right? It's classic authoritarian, works-based Christianity. Hell, 13 years ago I would have thought the same thing. But maturity and a clear head has made me much wiser from my ignorant youth. And I do get that to a person indoctrinated into CBC, The City Church, MFI (whatever), we are nothing but judgers. However, as I have politely pointed out numerous times to these people who continually jump on here to vent all their brainwashed anger, cliche scriptures, and oh so heartfelt jabs (like you guys are parasites), we don't exist for you. This blog is not about ruining your church or defaming Judah Smith. This blog is about questioning false doctrine, discussing relevant issues in faith, and helping the thousands of people who have been abused by their church and church leaders know that they are not alone.
So please all you "we hate this blog" posters, save your time and energy. We're not here for you, your not going to guilt us into shutting up, and we are all still Christians. So as much as it irks you to know that this is a battle you will never win, just accept the fact that we are here to stay and take your attacks elsewhere. We are glad to be like Samuel, calling out David for his wrongdoing. Hopefully the wrongdoers will someday respond as David did. Besides (and I mean this with 100% sincerity), we will be here for you when you finally need a place to speak out. We've all been in your shoes, and someday down the line you will be in ours.
RSS feed for posts
July 26th, 2008 at 7:53 am
I prayed for those in authority a long time ago.
Didn’t work.
Just got worse authority.
What does that tell us?
July 26th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
What do they mean when they say authority? Does the pastor and church I attend really have the same authority over me as a police officer, judge, or other government official? If they do would someone please explain?
I know from personal experience any time I have ever been pulled over while driving or found myself in front of a judge I was absolutely terrified and hoped they would have mercy on me!
If this is really true according to scripture I would like to know so that I might please God, but if not, something should be done with church leaders who would twist something just to create a climate of fear and control in God’s people.
July 26th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Jeremiah, I love you dog. You're a good dude. And there's 100% truth in what you are saying. But I totally disagree that we are supposed to sit idly by and let someone call us "church sucking parasites." Just not going to happen in my book. And I know its important to you to be a good Christian guy, but it's also important for me to use a little force sometimes. I have complete grace for anyone and everyone and I don't say these things out of anger and hate. But there is a big difference between having a dialogue and a yelling match. So for those people that want to come on here and have a yelling match I say stay the hell away, and I don't care what they think. Why? Because what they think serves no purpose, they just want to condemn and judge and make us feel guilty or un-spiritual for speaking out against their heroes. They think its OK to use authoritarian doctrine to step on the little guy. Now if someone disagrees with me and wants to have an educated discussion about it (as we are doing), then by all means please come and be apart of the crowd. I've got many non-Christian friends in my life, and with them I always have the most educated, thoughtful, intelligent conversations about faith, politics, and the church. Yet with Christians there are continued attacks for what I believe. Why the difference? Because Christians are too narrow. The are so close minded and unwilling to change that they would rather yell then dialogue. And to that I say, move on.
So let’s agree to disagree. I totally understand your point and you have every right in the world to speak out against mine. But just because its not how you would do things doesn’t mean its necessarily wrong. And for any hardcore bible thumpers that I have offended with this post, to you I sincerely apologize.
In love and grace, The Reformer
(PS: not sure if I will be there tomorrow, but I will sure try. We leave in a week)
July 26th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
I am surprised. You are so apt at dishing it out Reformer. Just can’t take it when someone gives it back. Kinda funny to watch.
July 26th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
I've often wondered this myself. I didn't grow up in the church and never quite understood why all these Christian kids were bowing down to every "important" male leader there was in the church. I always thought it was only your mommy and daddy you were suppose to obey?
Oh it's all in goof fun. Besides me and Jeremiah have the same type of personality (we both like to argue). Plus I'm a lawyer so I follow our famous decree: "often wrong, but never in doubt." Glad to be of service to your entertainment needs though. Stay tuned for more good times to come.
July 26th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Reformer,
“This blog is not about ruining your church or defaming Judah Smith.”
So why does this blog defame him then?
Do you know what the word defame means, and if so, do you seriously believe this blog has not done that?
July 26th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
I am one who both loves and hates this site. I think regular posters cross the making a broader point/needless personal attack line all the time. So, I understand where some of the people are coming from. I stay here because of the conversations like the one currently going on about grace. The CBC protest talk right now is pretty funny too. And I did not even attend CBC. NO TITHES FOR OIL.
On the other hand, I find it hilarious when a poster spends a great deal of time talking about unity in the body, loving one another, serving the greater good of the church, reaching the lost, etc. then ends their post with a few scathing remarks that negate everything that they previously wrote. The series of posts that inspired this thread fits into that category.
July 27th, 2008 at 2:38 am
I bet you would be the people writing blogs on King David when he killed Uriah and slept with his wife. You would point out everything wrong with them.
Again, are pastors to be compared to King David? I don’t get it. How much power should we give these pastors anyway? Why do they blanket every problem that comes up as one of not obeying your authorities? If all of us were so rebellious don’t you think most of us here would have criminal records a mile long? Why is it that the only place in our lives that we are accused of not obeying our authorities is in the church? It’s not us that sits around comparing ourselves to David an Moses.
July 27th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Pastoral authority games were a big part of an abusive church in which I was ensnared for several years. Pastoral authority games are a big part of why I am not going to any church now - years after escaping my old abusive church. Some of the most insidious pastoral authority games are being played by pastors in the "Purpose-Driven" movement. There's not a mathematical chance that I will be attending church while these games are still widespread.
I have absolutely no objections to the points made in your blog. Blog on!
July 27th, 2008 at 11:53 am
You don’t have to read this blog, you know.
And I agree we cross the line into personal attacks. But I just think it’s the price you pay to let people say what they want.
July 27th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Why turn a blind eye to abused uses of power and congregations that ruin the walks of true believers. I was a long time member of Bible Temple as CBC was once called back in it's better days. I have personally known and seen dozens of Christians who had a genuine heart for God lose their trust in churches due to the culture and dogma that has pervaded that church since Frank came in. I could go on about the specifics, but thats not the point of my reply. My reason for commenting is to say… While it is not healthy to dwell continually upon how bad some churches are, if we cannot dialog about Church faults, either real or perceived, then we as a body of Christ risk the chance of becoming ineffectual and irrelevant to the rest of the non-believing world.
July 27th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
The elements of a 1st Amendment defamation case as ruled on by the Supreme Court in NY Times v. Sullivan (1964) requires:
1) Defamatory language
2) Of and concerning a person
3) Published to 3rd parties
4) That damages the person’s reputation
5) That is false
6) And is made with actual malice (knowledge that the statement is false.
Very difficult to prove. And for the record I never said if this blog does or does not defame JS. I said it does not exist to defame him. Come on dog, let’s keep our attacks straight. I like it when you bring the heat, just make sure your bringing it correctly.
Well said, thank you.
July 27th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Reformer… firstly I am not your dog.
Secondly, to say \”I never said if this blog does or does not defame JS. I said it does not exist to defame him\” is a moot point.
I don\’t exist to do a lot of things I do all the time. You are the one that tried to use the whole we don\’t exist to defame point to somehow strengthen your post int he first place.
Even Catalyst was big enough to admit you make personal attacks.
So if you don\’t exist to defame but are defaming, why aren\’t you doing what you exist for?
July 27th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
I honestly don’t get what your asking?? Please clarify.
Yeah he is my hero too. (And a better man then I for sure).
JJ, I hear you 100% and it’s something God has been working out in my life since I became a Christian 15 years ago. I’ve always had a personality as a fighter. I just love to stir the pot and get people thinking. I would never take it too far, trust me. For your sake I will do my best to follow Christ’s example, but please forgive me if I step out of bounds sometimes.
(BTW - great seeing you today. Sorry we didn’t get to finish our conversation. Be awhile before I’m back in Portland, so I wish you all the best on your journey).
July 27th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
A few thoughts–
1) Nobody is perfect. We’ve all fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore no church is going to be perfect. Everybody has mistakes. Everybody has weaknesses. The thing that is absolutely disgusting is that this is a free for all for defaming and criticizing everybody who is at least doing something for the Kingdom of God. You do know that people are being saved every week at these churches right? People are coming into the saving knowledge of grace and salvation, etc. People’s lives are being transformed daily!
2) Where in the Bible does God appoint or consecrate critics to sit back and critique every thing a Pastor or Elder does? This is ridiculous. The only time I could think of is when Moses was leading the children of Israel, being God’s ambassador and representative, leading the people to the promised land. All the while people who rather enjoyed stirring the pot, and creating strife questioned and rebuked everything Moses did or said. You realize that they weren’t complaining against only Moses but God who had chosen Moses to lead them? And what happened to these people? They got “cut off” from God’s chosen people. They died. They didn’t have any life in them. What happens when you cut of a finger? It dies. But the body recovers and continues to live and prosper. For anyone who has rejected any type of church because of an offense- are you kidding me?! This is absolutely breaking the two most important commandments! Love God, love people. The church is God’s bride. If you hate the church, because of a few leaders who may be off in their interpretation or upbringing, how dare you lead others astray?
3) God says that it is the faith of children that will come into the kingdom of Heaven. Kid’s faith. The faith that accepts truth without absolute scrutiny or objection. You are absolutely negating Jesus’ words by critiquing every message, every pastor, every leader. I’m sorry, you may consider me a brainwashed, bible thumping crazed churchy christian, but whatever happened to the faith of a child. Jesus says do what “they” (teachers, people in authority, yes this includes pastors because they have sheep under them, which would make them a sort of spiritual authority figure) but don’t necessarily act like they act. So Judah’s not perfect. Wow. News flash. Neither are you. President Bush isn’t perfect. Woopty doo. I still love my country. I’m not gonna leave the U.S.A and move to Canada because of one man or an offense that I’m harboring. Grow up already. This is so childish. What happened to forgive and forget. If it’s a personal problem any of you have with Judah, Pastor Frank, etc. doesn’t the Bible (Old Testament) describe in detail how to handle the situation? Go to that person, tell them what is concerning you. If they don’t agree bring a couple of witnesses, if they still don’t agree then let it go. Settle the issue in your heart and trust God for goodness’ sake and have a little faith. “O you of little faith”. And tell me, how many “children” have you turned from grace, from truth, from the covering of a local church and the protection it provides by your slanderous and dangerous criticism. Again, what happened to examine the plank in your eye before blogging about a speck in someone else’s eye, my God.
Is God not God? Is He, the creator of Heaven and Earth not big enough to resolve such minor and miniscule issues relating to doctrine or its presentation (in Judah’s case). Seriously! There is a dying generation out there, There are hurt people in the world. When people come to generation church they don’t come to check out Judah’s hair, or to think about the theology of grace. They come because a friend invited them. They come because they’re looking to be accepted. Who the flip cares how the preacher delivers his sermon. The fact is God shows us during worship, during the preaching, during the altar call and people meet a real God. They find grace. And after they’ve experienced the reality of a real God, they will begin to read the Bible for themselves and learn doctrine on their own. But why on God’s good earth would you leave a church and isolate yourself because you were rubbed the wrong way. Get your eyes off yourself and crucify it. Crucify self. Remember that verse, “pick up your cross daily”? Yeah let’s try more of that. Jesus didn’t have to die for us, it is a battle of the “wills”. But what did Jesus say, not my will but Your will”. Can we learn a lesson, maybe?
Parasites, snakes, vipers, whatever. Let’s get a bigger perspective and see things the way God sees things. Maybe you were hurt by a Pastor, or a leader? Your feelings, your emotions are real, but we are not to be lead by them. We are to be lead by the spirit. What God is doing in Portland, in Seattle, in Boise is incredible! He is moving. People are being saved everyday! Why magnify each other’s weaknesses? The heathens do that. The world does that. Go to any high school. These people are called “drama queens” because they instigate drama, then they get a blast watching their reaction and getting a thrill out of seeing people leave the church, the very thing that God is going to use to save this world. In revelation, it is the church that is going to be united with Jesus in intimacy, not a few lone rangers who never get their eyes off of themselves.
Those are my thoughts.
(Do not call me a gun blasting maniac who is coming to disturb the “peace” but truly take into account what I’ve mentioned. I mean look at the starts. Think about how big our galaxy is. God is big people. Arguing about the things you argue about can be explained like this: God placed his finger on the earth. One person saw the back (fingerprint/soft) of his finger and another saw the front (the nail/hard). And then these two people meet and go on to explain to each other what God’s finger looks like. The one person insists God is hard (rash, angry, bitter, etc.) while the other person argues that God is soft (loving, caring, etc.) Who’s right? They’re both flipping right. The point is everybody sees God in their own unique way. Why waste a lifetime arguing what your point of view is.)
Thank you.
July 28th, 2008 at 5:59 am
I was actually referring to myself. I cross the line into personal attacks a fair amount, and sometimes I regret it. Of course, other times, (like when I’m making fun of Judah’s hair), I applaud myself for having such a wonderful sense of humor.
But look, JM, that’s going to happen on this blog. So please just ignore the attacks, or visit another site. But don’t beat the issue to death. It is was it is.
July 28th, 2008 at 7:08 am
I think this sentance sums up all that is wrong with Christians today.
When Doctrine becomes minor you allow all kinds of weird things to creep into the church. This is why people accept prosperity preachers…doctrine is minor…God’s word is minor…and what becomes important are: Image, Status, and Numbers. If you have a big enough following and a good image than you can get away with just about any false teaching you want.
Also, as far as presentation goes…remember when Jesus made the comment:
He wasn’t rebuking the act of fasting…he was rebuking the Presentation. There are a number of times throughout the old testiment where Jesus did this. So presentation must be at least somewhat important.
Green Pen, if you’ve been “under the covering” of Judah/Wendall/Frank (whoever) and you haven’t learned good doctrine yet, how can we sit back and expect brand new Christians to:
Most all Christians recieve their doctrine from their pastors…when the pastors are wrong it hurts everyone.
July 28th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Again, Jesus addressed “show” or the “presentation” but Jesus told us to ignore that, “listen and do what they say” but don’t do what they do-I know that most of them put on a show, but get all the good you can out of a message, etc.
And once again, I stand behind my story about the two “christians” arguing what God looks like based on 2 different points of view. Jesus came to serve, to save the lost. Jesus came to save that which was lost, he came for the sick not the well off (remember the thing he said about the sick needing the doctor).
Show me 5 churches which are completely right on, on their doctrine..you can’t because “your particular” brand of doctrine stems from your perspective. These churches aren’t sinning, but they keep first things first: salvation, grace, etc..
And Reformed Pope, your faith is demonstrated in your response comment, you seriously don’t think God is big enough? How about you read Job 38-39 and see how God describes himself.
Quit playing games especially with people’s hearts and grow your faith. In God and in mankind. (2 most important commandments)
July 28th, 2008 at 8:15 am
LOL
Apparently, liking clothes is a sin tantamount to looking at porn or something…? I don’t know what the argument is here, but I thought it was funny.
As far as defaming goes, there have only been a very few times when I felt like certain topics crossed the line. Most of the time its just hilarious, and satire is a healthy form of making sure we don’t take certain people too seriously, and it’s a clever way of pointing out the truth that everyone else is ignoring.
As far as the authority thing goes, if you really believe that pastors have “Authority” with a capital A, you deserve whatever abuse you get from them. Being a pastor does not give you absolute rule over your congregation, nor does it give you the right to slip into doctrinal error. Christians should speak up against pastors who are out of line and stop drinking their Kool Aid. But if you like the flavor of Prosperity Punch or Tithe Tea, by all means party on!
July 28th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Doctrinetalk Craig… would you please handle this for me? You could simple cut and paste one of your exellant posts from your blog in response, whereas I would have to type this all out again.
Thanks.
July 28th, 2008 at 9:49 am
I never said pastor’s have “Authority”, capital “A”
I like satire myself.
Learn to be productive elsewhere tho. My challenge reamains. Name at least 5, or forget 5, name at least 1 church which is completely doctrinally sound. Completely perfect and without error. You won’t find it! So grow up..
July 28th, 2008 at 10:04 am
But you certainly implied by your above statements that it was wrong of us to question pastors and authority and called it ridiculous. You also implied that anyone who left church was sinning against God. Tell that to Martin Luther who wrote his 95 Theses outlining the doctrinal mistakes of the Roman Catholic church. Unless you’re a devout catholic it’s a bit hypocritical to call us sinners. If you’re at all Protestant you’re in the same boat, buddy!
No one here hates THE CHURCH, but we do think it’s wise at times to leave A church which has become a hindrance to your own relationship with God and with others. If A church has a bad pastor or leadership team that you cannot in good conscience follow, then it’s better to leave than to stay. To equate leaving A church with being apostate - now that is silly and ridiculous. That’s how cults get started.
As far as being doctrinally sound, you’re setting up a straw man argument. Of course, no one is perfect, just as no church is perfect, because churches are made up of imperfect people. But that’s not a good enough reason to stay when leaders go off the deep end.
As far as growing up: You first.
(I’m a Toys R Us kid.)
July 28th, 2008 at 10:16 am
I find the consistent answer of ’satire’ or ‘parody’ or ‘humor’ to genuine questions people ask somewhat of a cop out. On one hand you want people to respect this blog and have some good and serious conversations about doctrine and church. Then, on the other hand, when challenged you bring out the humor or parody line.
FICM, if it is so hilarious to make fun of people, have you ever been made fun of on a blog? Do you ever wonder how it might feel to be on the receiving end? No doubt fun for you, but what about for them?
Don’t you think this weakens this blogs ability to be a credible place of real conversation? I mean, sure Catalyst, you applaud yourself for making anonymous internet comments about a guys hair. Funny if you were a child I suppose. Perhaps you should put a photo of yourself up and let the viewers decide who hairs better?
July 28th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Most of the “challenges” faced here are people telling us to stop questioning “authority”. There are rare times when people are actually willing to discuss the topic at hand, such as the recent one on “Getting Grace”. If you were a long time reader, you’d know that RP has been in contact with CBC leadership in an attempt to open lines of communication and a few leaders even made an effort to talk about some of it via emails. If you are willing to discuss specific points of doctrine I’d be happy to debate them with you at great length. But coming on here to scold me for not wanting open communications without making an honest effort to do so yourself is a bit hypocritical.
So you want to play the sympathy card for CBC leadership? If I were on here calling people names out of spite or revenge you might have a case to scold me, but you don’t know me or what I went through there and you can’t see my heart. I hold no grudges, but sometimes you have to point and laugh saying, “The Emperor has no clothes!” before anyone else will come to their senses. Satire can be a great tool. And sometimes it’s just funny for funny’s sake. If you don’t like it, there are probably plenty of myspace pages linking to Gen Unleashed events that you can read instead.
July 28th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Green Pen said,
Green, no, they don’t. That’s the problem.
July 28th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Great discussion…glad to see we have some people willing to fight for what they believe in. Please keep the immature name calling to yourself or I will delete/edit your post.
So I’ve have this debate many times with me strict authoritarian, right wing friends and I have found one thing to be very consistent with them all: those who have gone through the fire of church abuse will always speak out against that church, and those who have not will always defend that church. I’ve also found that unless one has been actively involved in church leadership (youth pastor, small group leader, lay pastor, elder/deacon, basically any kind of leadership role, etc.) they never get to see or personally experience the abuse. Those who simply come every Sunday, sing a few songs, take a few notes, write out their tithe checks, shake hands with the leadership and head home are usually the ones who think their church is the greatest church out there. They don’t see the behind the scenes activity nor truly understand what kind of sickening, destructive, vial, abusive, and unbiblical behavior a lot of their “leaders” practice. And good for them that they don’t have to see or experience the dark side of ministry. Bad for them that they participate in something so wrong. And I don’t think there will ever be an end to it, because for every person who leaves a church for unethical, unbiblical behavior there’s another person joining. Those of us who hate this type of thing just have to ban together and start our own churches. We will become that refuge for people who eventually wake up and walk away, which at the rate things are going will be quite a few. I guarantee that a percentage of the people right now who adamantly defend CBC or The City Church will be champions for this blog within 5 to 10 years. There is no doubt in my mind about that!
July 28th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Seriously FICM? What happened to the Jews who left Moses at the wilderness? We ever hear from them again? What happens to a finger if you cut if off from the body? It dies but the body recovers and goes on to prosper. Since when does Jesus or the bible for that matter tell us to leave a local body of believers and to become an authority unto ourselves? Nowhere! Paul the apostle went around starting churches, and in fact he rebuked those who started religious arguments through out his letters. Let it go for goodness’ sake!
What big sins have these churches committed anyways?! Because they believe something a little off from what you believe? Who cares! Paul says I will be all things to all people.
Hahahah. So then the general public / church attenders are the cult and you and those few individuals who have left based upon small differences are in the right? Cults are usually small groups of outcasts who complain and jest about the general public, and think they have it all figured out, thus deceiving yourselves. Jesus says “Go make disciples!” How many people are you discipling? Anyone? Or were Jesus’ words just a general statement for a few individuals in history. Take the word of God and do it!
Talk is cheap!!
Ecclesiastes 5:6-8 (New Living Translation)
“Don’t let your mouth make you sin. And don’t defend yourself by telling the Temple messenger that the promise you made was a mistake. That would make God angry, and he might wipe out everything you have achieved.
Talk is cheap, like daydreams and other useless activities. Fear God instead.”
July 28th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Green Pen, I think you are confusing the vine and the branches. Jesus is the Vine and we are the Branches. Removing one's self from an abusive church (little 'c') is not the same as removing one's self from Christ's Church (big 'c'). I do still go to a church (little c) and I am always a part of Christ's Church (big c). Please don't confuse my above statements. I'm not advocating that people stop being a part of the Vine, I'm saying that people should be careful as to which branches they hang out with (pun intended).
Why can't you?
You seem to be getting your money's worth!
July 28th, 2008 at 11:29 am
The Reformer said:
I have been apart in the cell ministry in the youth for a long time now and I have yet to see these magnanimous sins and “the dark side” of ministry you have mentioned..
People are people, God is God. Let it go. Moses didn’t do everything perfect, shesh. He used to have all the people of Israel come to him to settle disputes, then his father in law came by and gave him direction and how to do it differently. And thus the “cadre/cell” system was developed.
The leaders are to “teach”, “give instruction”, and to “show” how to live, etc. Why in God’s green earth would you just sit back and critique the living life out of everything?
Honestly couldn’t your time be better spent raising up new Christian and fulfilling the great commission in your own life and sphere of influence.
Sure you can focus on somebody’s shortcomings, but do know that whatever measure you use, the same will be measured back to you. If you continually judge, God will judge you in the same manner. If you extend grace and forgiveness God will also extend you grace in your failings. I mean come on! How strictly do you want to be judged in eternity?
July 28th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Obviously you don't get it…"believe something a little off from what you believe." How about more like completely off! We're not debating who wrote the book of Hebrews here, were talking about whether Jesus calls us serve him out of works. Read some of my recent posts on works and grace, or the post from Negrodamus about a false gospel. There is a complete 180 degree difference between what we preach and what MFI preaches. And the prosperity doctrine? Don't even get us started. There is absolutely no biblical base to that entire word of faith sh*t. I dare you to find me some bible that says God wants everyone to be rich. Please, I even beg you to show me.
Again your lack of understanding is brain numbing. I just got out of a bible study of 10 men all involved in their community. Me and a couple of bloggers here were in it. All we did is read scripture and discuss this stuff. There's a church in Portland alot of us posters and readers go to that was formed from the desire to stay away from the CBC's of the world. A true message of grace and hope is preached weekly. Drug addicts, AIDS patients, college kids, families, you name it, are all becoming apart because they are sick and tired of abusive, destructive, unbiblical churches. People are getting saved weekly and ministry/discipleship opportunities abound. Me and a couple of other bloggers are getting ready to start a huge all men’s fellowship group that will be comprised of 50% non-Christians. We are going to spend hours talking about faith, politics, families and yes, false doctrine.
Thank you for making my point about the absurdity of your message. What you say here pretty much sums up the false doctrine you have bought into. Thinking that God will only extend grace to my failings if I extend it to others is a complete lie. Read your bible. I sure hope you don't share this message with a non-Christian, you will make them never want to serve God.
July 28th, 2008 at 11:35 am
FICM, I repeat myself (thus getting my money's worth
) What happened to the Jews who left Moses at the wilderness? We ever hear from them again? What happens to a finger if you cut if off from the body? It dies but the body recovers and goes on to prosper. Since when does Jesus or the bible for that matter tell us to leave a local body of believers and to become an authority unto ourselves? Nowhere! Paul the apostle went around starting churches, and in fact he rebuked those who started religious arguments through out his letters. Those who plant discord and start arguments sound familiar? The church isn't supposed to be perfect! So why are you looking for something that can't be found? The local Church is the tool that Christ himself will use to fulfill the great commission. What else would he use? Lone rangers? Glad to hear your still attending a church, God bless you.
July 28th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Reformer–
I respect that. In fact I applaud you in what you have stated.
I have read previous posts. I myself am continually looking for “truth” in the way the church is run. I admit there is a lot of beauracracy and “show”. I have never heard of anyone truly talk in depth about “suffering” or “carrying their cross”. It is in fact a lot of bliss and flowers..
I just can’t bring myself to separate from that which God is using to transform this world. A lot of good is coming out of these churches. People are being saved and transformed/ born again.
I commend you for your local outreach and study groups. In fact, that is what the local church is supposed to be.
I lead a cadre and we do this too: we reach out, talk/discuss problems in the church/modern christians, what it truly means to be a disciple..
The thing that is just annoying is the defaming and name calling going on here. I’ll repeat myself here:
“Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged.”
July 28th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Green Pen,
I think you’re missing the point but you seem to be fixated on this so I’ll go along with it. I don’t think you’re making a fair comparison when you talk about the Jews leaving Moses. Pastors are NOT Moses. And local churches are not wandering through the wilderness following a pillar of smoke and fire. We’re talking about small communities of believers full of the Holy Spirit living together trying to be more like Jesus. At the risk of repeating myself, you’re missing the point of the difference between church and THE CHURCH. You’re accusing me and others of something we are not guilty of. Many of us who are detractors of CBC and MFI are members of local churches, we just stopped attending THOSE churches and for good reasons. You imply that be leaving CBC we are cutting ourselves off from the Vine, which is not true, we’ve simply changed who we rub branches with. See the difference?
July 28th, 2008 at 11:59 am
I get it, just why bash those who you used to get along with?
July 28th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Paul’s words to the Galatians…
Does that sound like kind words of reconciliation? Is Paul sticking it out with the Nicolatians in order to keep the local church intact? NO! He addresses the poor doctrine using rather strong sarcastic remarks!
To those on the receiving end, it looks like “bashing”, but to those on the giving end, it looks like satire that points out doctrinal error. It’s a matter of perspective. So why do it? Because it’s a lot more entertaining than writing out a thesis paper and hanging it on the doors of the giant bubbles.
July 28th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Point taken
July 28th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
I just realized something. Paul knew that his letters were being read to the churches they were being sent to. They were public documents meant to be read in public places with many listeners (since most people couldn’t read). He spoke in a dialog to all listeners and knew exactly what he was saying when he publicly rebuked someone in one of his letters.
Paul was the first blogger!
And it was Paul who set the precedent for rebuking false doctrine through his “blog”.
July 28th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Hahah good to know I was apart of a revelaion
That’s good tho..
I guess we all need to sit back and re-evaluate how we do things and what we do. But we could never lose focus: its all about God and people. So long as your perspective is filtered through the cross and compassion followed by action (as demonstrated by Jesus) becomes a reality in our lives, we all need grace.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
That's actually a really good idea. Pope, lets add this to our list of things to do at the CBC protest rally/BBQ/all night prayer meeting.
Exactly! So lets not deceive the people.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Truth be told: some of the attempts at humor aren’t all that funny. Some of them are. NO TITHES FOR OIL. Hilarious to me. The parody that falls flat comes off as holding a grudge.
Some stuff is decent natured. When I was a youth pastor, we stopped taking our JH and HS students to City Church events because of the beautiful people feel of GC. So, to me that stuff is funny. I actually think Judah is a good guy but the hair, clothes and isn’t my wife hot stuff is funny.
What often is missing on this page is that reality that most people stumble onto this page. They weren’t sent here by their clergy. So, when someone comes to this page for the first time, make a comment that has been made a hundred times, they are treated with hostility as if they should know what is going on here. As a former teacher, I have taught some of the same lessons and answered the same questions over and over. In each instance, the question has to be answered straightforwardly. The teacher can’t say, “Man, I have to answer that question every year.” Or you teach 3 sections of the same class. There is a chance you will answer the same questions in each of the sections. As a teacher, I can’t be frustrated because I have already answered that question today. If this site is here to help educate people, then this would be good to keep in mind.
For authority, with the exception of the government and our parents when we are little, all authority is granted. We have the ability to walk away from the authorities in our lives church is no different. Our church leaders only have authority over us because we give it to them. The clergys’ authority over their church may be God ordained but their authority over any specific individual is not.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Excellent point Fred. Never looked at it like that, I will definately keep that in mind. I won’t back down from someone who uses name calling and has an immature “you all suck” attitude though, whether they are a first timer or not.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
“You suck”
“You are all parasites on the church”
“You are all losers”
“You are all sissy girl whiners”
“Your girlfriend wears granny panties”
These comments and the like should be addressed but in a way that says, “Your comment does not warrant a response but since we’re both here…”
;^)
July 28th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
I can’t wait…you snuck out of church early Sunday…I went to look for you to show you the new signs i had the kids in Children’s Church paint for us but you were gone…
Good times. Good Times.
July 30th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
I am totally down for a bbq only if i can anoint people with “HOLY OIL”
July 30th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Green Pen said:
Jesus said He would return for a spotless bride. I believe Him…not you.
That’s like saying…I know I am an adulterer, but who hasn’t lusted after women? Find 5 men who haven’t lusted after a woman before you tell me adultery is wrong. That is a RED HERRING and completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Doctrine is important. Paul told Timothy it would save his (Timothy’s) soul, and those who hear him…Paul sure seemed to esteem good doctrine much more than the relativistic lukewarm Christianity we see these days.
The difference between my beliefs and what is preached at the MFI churches are vast…they are not minor things. See my blog (click on my name) and let me know where you disagree with me…I would be curious to see how you defend the scriptures prosperity preachers use.
I look forward to your comments…
August 1st, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Ahh, sorry I missed you. I had to get my rock climbing gear out to help me scale the bubbles.
I am back home and settled now, so we can get back to work. Looks like some great dialogue is happening. Gotta love those “you guys suck,” “grow up,” “quite attacking the church,” posters. They are starting to come out in force. Guess we’re no longer just some underground bloggers without an impact?