I Regret my Presence There
Posted on August 1st, 2008 by catalyst into the City Boobie Church categoryI received the following email from a former reader, asking me to remove some comments on the blog. And in the process had this to say:
I regret things I've said. I regret my presence there. I was at a picnic on Sat and saw some old friends from CBC and saw for the first time how much (the blog) has hurt people.
I'll be honest, whenever I hear that this blog has hurt people at CBC. My first thought is always, "Good. That's the point."
Until these churches (City Bible, the City Church, Sovereign Grace Ministries, Christian Life Fellowship, the MFI Church Directory) come up with a better way to deal with dissent. Or until they stop putting leadership over the congregation, blogs like this will exist.
Anyway, that's my defense. But really, I'm just posting this so you all know that yep, four years later, they're still reading. Heh.
August 1st, 2008 at 4:58 am
There’s a difference between “hurting” people, and then making them “upset” (either emotionally or intellectually.
I have little doubt most posts on this blog make a lot of CBCers “upset”. Does that “hurt” them? Probably.
They are not the same thing.
Was King David “hurt” or “upset” when he was called into accountability by the prophet who dared speak the truth to him?
Probably both.
Did that make the prophet wrong?
…..
….
…
..
.
And yes, I *am* saying that some posts on this blog are similar in status as the prophet’s.
OK, now I’ve gone and hurt all my CBCer “friends”. Most of them will not understand until they are no longer CBCers.
August 1st, 2008 at 5:55 am
Good point. I should have made that distinction.
August 1st, 2008 at 8:22 am
The abuser playing victim. Classic. The fact that this blog talks about the problems–names them, addresses them, etc.–does NOT make this blog the problem. The problem is the problem, if that makes sense. These churches are the problem. The legalistic theological system is the problem. Not this blog.
The CBC folks who are “hurt” by this blog are either leaders who are furious and indignant by the audacity of “people like us” or by lay-people who are so sucked into the system that they simply are befuddled by people who don’t think it’s as marvelous as they do. I truly feel empathy for all of them. But, I have a hard time believing they are truly “hurt” or “hurt” to anywhere near the extent that they have HURT others. They are whining and complaining and playing the victim. It’s pretty hard to swallow. At least for me. But maybe I’m just a hard-hearted !@#^$%&.
August 1st, 2008 at 8:33 am
Nah. I had a similar reaction. I’d forgotten how manipulative they can be. And I have still yet to hear anyone up there admit they made a mistake. That perhaps the constant begging for money may have not been the best use of the pulpit.
August 1st, 2008 at 9:48 am
If THEY were healthy people THEY would be hurting over the fact that THEY have hurt others and would be doing everything THEY could do to heal the ones THEY have hurt. The fact that this blog had to be created in order for people to be heard says it all. If THEY had been truly listening and staying connected in love, people would never have resorted to this. The typical leadership cop-out.
I
August 1st, 2008 at 10:18 am
Yeah, I don’t feel to badly for them. They loving being “hurt” and being the “victim”. It’s all just manipulation so they can control people.
If they are so great why did they constantly refuse to have an open dialoge with me? What does the Bible say about that?
For the record, I had an email conversation with one of the pastors who told me I had caused so much damage and “left a trail of carnage”. When I pressed him for specifics he responded by saying I had hurt many people in the church and outside of the church including friends and family. When I again pressed him for specifics saying “If I have hurt someone as you are accusing me of doing, please tell me whom I have hurt and what I have done to hurt them so I can make things right”. His reponse was that it wasn’t his “place to name names and by doing so he would be violating one of the most basic biblical principles.”
It was all for manipulation. He wanted me to feel guilty, but when pressed he had nothing.
As long as they keep preaching a false Jesus then they will be the “victim of this blog”. The trail of carnage is just going to continue.
August 1st, 2008 at 11:46 am
I love you Pope, you’re the best.
And I agree 100%. The only thing you/we have hurt is their feelings. Other than that they are sitting pretty and will continue to do such. If they ever flipped the switch and realized how shameful they have been I bet you they would have 10,000 members. But as long as they continue to live in falsity, they will continue to live below there potential. And man I wish so badly that they would call us in for a meeting. That would be a truly great moment in my life. But as we all know they can only preach a good game, actually living it out is another story. So we will have to keep on blogging and being the “thorn in their side” that they use as a badge of honor for how much the devil is after them.
August 1st, 2008 at 11:57 am
It seems like this blog is going downhill.
How is this parody?
Let’s just call it what it is. How is hurting people parody?
I am surprised that from the same posters who claim to want to speak intelligently about doctrine, that they also public state, “I’ll be honest, whenever I hear that this blog has hurt people at CBC. My first thought is always, “Good. That’s the point.”"
And Jonpaul, that’s big of you to say the carnage will continue. How easy it is to make tough-guy claims from the safety of your computer. And why would you as a Christian want carnage to happen in people’s lives?
Parody? Maybe I am missing the humor?
Catalyst, how is hurting people the point of this blog? The writer did not say the pastors at CBC, it said people. This could include any number of people who simply attend the church.
Why do you want to hurt people catalyst?
August 1st, 2008 at 12:09 pm
The only thing that has been “hurt” has been their ability to destroy people in secret. This has been going on for years in the MFI circles. They don’t care how many people leave wounded and rejected as long as they don’t tell anyone.
August 1st, 2008 at 12:14 pm
(sigh) JM, who exactly is forcing you to read this blog?
August 1st, 2008 at 12:32 pm
JM said:
Because the truth hurts.
August 1st, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Why do you want to hurt people catalyst?
If you really cared you would be asking catalyst and jonpaul to please tell you what happened to them at CBC so maybe you could better understand THEIR pain. There are two sides to every story. The other side is finally speaking out.
How much better for everyone if our pastors would have dealt with us in love while we were still attending their church. It could still happen now but the only way MFI knows how to deal with people that don’t agree with them is to discredit them and run them off if they become too much of a problem.
Thank you catalyst and jonpaul for having the courage address something many people have been affected by for years. That is where the carnage is. All of the destroyed lives.
August 1st, 2008 at 12:45 pm
You missed the whole point.
You see, Pastor X accused me of “leaving a trail of carnage” and when I asked him to substantiate that accusation he was unable to do so. All he really wanted to do was throw guilt (manipulation) at me to help him feel better about ignoring my attempts to comunicate.
You can’t just go around accusing people of something without having anything to back it up…and if, when questioned, you don’t want to back it up then you should never bring it up in the first place.
As long as I have been around CBC they have tried to manipulate me one way or the other…I’ve never caved and never will. However, there have been times where I have offered honest and sincere apologies when I realized my actions were wrong. I’m a reasonable guy…despite what you may have heard.
So, my “trail of carnage will continue” comment doesn’t really mean anything, because I don’t know what that a “trail of carnage” is. (Much like in highschool when I was told I was a “Pawn used by the Devil” for TP-ing my youth pastors house.)
Good Times, Good Times.
August 1st, 2008 at 1:02 pm
It seems to me that reading this blog has led people to believe that being hurt or offended is some kind of spiritual gift. I don’t believe that I have read anywhere in the Bible that Jesus sends people out with the gift of offense to minister to everyone. To be “offended” at someone for the things that are said or done there should be some substance behind it all. Everything I have seen in these blogs are empty, void & shallow comments that have no substance. Nobody cares enough about the things that are said in here to be “hurt”. I’m sure CBC leadership is just looking for people to grow up and mature instead of waisting their short lives doing these blogs, that have no meaning or substance, all day every day. Grow up People and do something for the kingdom.
August 1st, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Lori said:
That’s funny. When I read what you wrote, here’s what I see:
I’m sure CBC (City Business Church aka, this blog) leadership is just looking for people to grow up and mature instead of waisting their short lives doing these churches, that have no meaning or substance, all day every day. Grow up People and do something for the kingdom.
lol. Change two words, and you’ve effectively nailed down the point of this blog. Thanks!
August 1st, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Ah, I love posts like this. The great CBC defenders saying “you all are so unimportant we really don’t care what you are saying,” however they take the time to log on here and read this stuff everyday (in secret of course).
Lori, why don’t you just admit that what you really mean is more like this:
1) “Grow up” = submit to authority
2) “Mature” = give more tithe
3) “Do something with your life” = join some cheesy CBC program, work your ass off for free, and let them continue to spiritually abuse you in the name of ministry
Where do I sign up?
August 1st, 2008 at 1:55 pm
x______________________
August 1st, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Gee, another whitty comment that is meeningless. I didn’t expect that! I forgot that submit & tithing were such a bad thing. What are you doing with the 10% of God’s money?
1. Beer
2. Rolling Dubee’s
3. Porn site prescriptions
4. Tylenol (for the hangovers)
5. Strip joints (when porn isn’t enough)
When will you guys get a clue?
August 1st, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Lori… with respect, all the blog posters here believe in GIVING to God’s purpose, not the mandatory TITHE. There’s a difference. We all still give money.. we just don’t “tithe”, or accept the false doctrine of “mandatory tithe” as preached from the CBC pulpit.
That being said… I have a personal comment about your last post. It’s not good. (Your post.) By “good”, I don’t mean it wasn’t witty or clever. (Although that’s arguable…) I mean it was not Christ-like. I have a hard time believing Jesus would have made a post similar to yours. You have come onto this blog, chastised “everyone”, and now you’re basically behaving like a 12 year old, trying to provoke attack or anger or whatever.
If you’re not a follower of Christ, then please ignore my comment.
Either way, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to prove. Can you explain what you’re trying to say, without resorting to name calling, false assumptions, etc ?
August 1st, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Oh boy now you’re in trouble…
Let’s see:
1) Couple months ago I gave a guy $250 to help an urban outreach of non-Christians in the back yard of his home. More then 200 people showed up. We served food, had worship, preached the gospel and started a weekly bible study out of it.
2) About a month ago I sent a check to a little girl raising money to take a trip to Washington DC.
3) Couple weeks ago I took a guy out for lunch who just walked away from his church. He was the college age pastor making a great salary with a wife and two babies. Since leaving his job because he couldn’t stand the person he had become, he has very little money, so I spent the money for our meal and gave him hope that he too can recover from spiritual abuse.
4) Last Sunday I gave a couple $50 because he works in part-time ministry, has three kids, and very minimal income. God told me that instead of putting my offering in the basket to give it to him. So I did.
5) Two days ago, I went out with my wife and daughter to a restaurant for dinner. Our server was a former youth pastor who left his church because he too couple not stand the spiritual abuse he was witnessing everyday. He went from a $50K year full-time ministry job, to a server at Applebee’s. I left him a $20 tip on a $10 bill.
And for the record: I don’t drink (think alcohol tastes gross, not because I think its wrong), I have never done drugs in my life, last time I looked at porn on the internet was when I was still in high school (I’m 30 now), I never use any medication (yes not even Tylenol and my wife thinks I’m crazy), and I have never set foot in a strip club. Your ignorance behooves you!
August 1st, 2008 at 2:32 pm
BTW - I’m happy to discuss my personal GIVING habits if you’d like to contact me personally. henri NOSPAM AT etwebhosting.com The bible says not to be proud, but I’m happy to share with you my personal belief about money, tithing, giving, including how much I make, how much I give, etc. Feel free to email. The first question I will ask is your real name and address, so don’t bother if you are not willing to have a real discussion.
August 1st, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Good, now I’ve hit a few nerves. And that’s just what this blog does!!! By the way, since when did we start tipping God? Tithing was not established to be a law to be lived under it was established as a covenant. There’s a big difference. Look it up.
August 1st, 2008 at 2:45 pm
You didn’t hit nerves, you showed your ignorance. I don’t know you, but you seem to be doing the exact thing you claim to detest. Fun times.
Same with circumcision…look it up.
August 1st, 2008 at 2:49 pm
I’m not interested to hear what your personal beliefs are about tithe, money, ect. If I wanted some education on it I’ll read a book. You have the same old view as everyone else that likes to tip God, then give to random people at your convenience so you can feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Good Luck!!
August 1st, 2008 at 2:54 pm
I’m not even going to bother replying to your blind acceptance of the “typical docrine of tithing”. There are plenty of resources in various posts of this blog and the web that already discuss/debate this issue.
NOTE TO CATALYST/REFORMED POPE: Have you guys considered putting together a “resources” page for the blog? Maybe some key topics (like Lori’s blind acceptance) and then some links to pertinant comments/posts/websites that address this false doctrine?
Lori… hit a nerve? haha. It takes a lot more then a few inane comments on a blog to get me “nerved”.
I’d say I’m more “sad” then anything. I’m sad because I see yet another blinded follower who appears (correct me if I’m wrong?) to have swallowed pulpit-fed church doctrine without seriously researching/praying/fasting/seeking God’s spirit about whether it’s right or wrong or just “off” a little bit.
So anyway, if you want to openly dialogue with me, feel free to send me a personal email. My address is in my previous comment. This blog is not where I prefer to take my own debates, so I’ll let the other guys do that, although I imagine it gets tiring for them saying the same things over and over when it’s most likely going to fall on ears that are not open for listening.
I get the feeling you just want to pick a fight or stir up emotions. If so, then begone with you.
If you honestly want to debate church policy (oops, I mean “doctrine”), then by all means.. feel free to share. But do so with real honest respect and integrity, ok? We are all Christ lovers here, brothers and sisters in the same family. Let’s behave as though we truly love each other and wish to “correct” each other in the spirit of truth and Christ’s perfect love.
August 1st, 2008 at 3:07 pm
And where in the new testament does it say we should tithe to a church…please show me the chapter and verse?
August 1st, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Let’s get real. There’s no honest respect or integrity here. It’s a bunch of self indulgent & self righteous people stating there foolish ideas about what they think the church should do & be. Yeah, there’s a lot of whitty, smart wordsmiths in here that do nothing but boast there vocabulary on anyone that will listen. The only thing you have correct on this blog is that your words will fall. When you say Pray, did you mean that one time when you prayed about how will God bless you when you won’t tithe? Or when you say fasting, are you talking about skipping out on a Big Mac today? You seam to have a lot of knowledge on what to do but have no wisdom to apply it. To bad!
August 1st, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Your not tithing to a church. Your tithing to God! Where in the New Testament does it say not to tithe to a church? Where do you think you should tithe?
August 1st, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Amazing how all the criticisms are the same. Point the finger at people, not issues. Sad…with the lack of grammar and incoherent points the post just seems to be angry.
Lori, sorry if you are offended by this, but w don’t fight flesh and blood…remember? You are making this terribly personal.
By the way, when Mormons tithe…do they tithe to their church or God?
August 1st, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Wow. Ok, then. Have a nice day.
August 1st, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Ok, show me where it says to tithe in general. Seriously, chapter and verse. I really want to know?
August 1st, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Thank you. I would like to think it was my homeschool upbringing that gave me such abilities.
August 1st, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Not offended! It’s not my spiritual calling! Don’t know about Mormon tithing. Never looked much into there accult. Sorry!
August 1st, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Lori said:
August 1st, 2008 at 2:49 pm
I’m not interested to hear what your personal beliefs are about tithe, money, ect.
Lori, I think that is the whole problem. Not being interested in what others personally believe is a typical outcome of MFI brainwashing. Until you guys get interested in others( especially if they disagree with you) you will always get the same reaction.
August 1st, 2008 at 3:21 pm
why does every insist on saying that we waste money on porn sites
PORN IS FREE
and nobody says rolling dubees anymore that’s just silly
August 1st, 2008 at 3:23 pm
At the end of the Bible there is an index with words. You can look up the word tithe. It will give you scriptures that apply.
August 1st, 2008 at 3:24 pm
MFI? Sorry don’t know what this is.
August 1st, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Lori said:
August 1st, 2008 at 3:24 pm
MFI? Sorry don’t know what this is.
That is because that little chip they installed in your brain wiped out all memory of them.
August 1st, 2008 at 3:30 pm
No, I want you to show me. You are so passionate about it. Could it be that you don’t know? Maybe its because other then the Old Testament (that’s before Christ died for our sins) there is no direct message from God about tithing. So other then mindlessly following what your leaders teach you each week, do you actually have a reason for tithing? Because Frank tells me too, is that your best answer? That’s pretty sad Lori.
August 1st, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Men Faking Integrity
August 1st, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Reformer, you hit it right on the head. She doesn’t know…she, like most Christians, has put her faith in her leaders and they told her to Tithe, then they told her to never question authority. She knows the Bible says a bunch of stuff about tithing…it has to, she hears the scriptures every week from the pulpit…of course she also has never bothered to actually STUDY for herself…but she is willing to bet that her pastors know more than we do.
This is on of the fundamental problems with Christianity today. People put way to much trust in men and don’t bother doing the research for themselves.
Makes for a good day at the Blog though.
August 1st, 2008 at 4:09 pm
This is long. Forgive me for that. This comes from Christianity Today. I will post another article here in a second. My point with posting the article is to say that it is not just greedy, angry, crackpots who want to control the 100%, not just the 90% that are questioning the tithe.
Christian History Corner: The Ancient Rise and Recent Fall of Tithing
Is yet another time-honored Christian practice fading from view?
Collin Hansen
June 1, 2003
During the first few years of the twenty-first century, Americans have already contended with a remarkable amount of political and economic tumult, ranging from the Sept. 11 attacks to the collapse of the 1990s economic boom to military conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Uneasiness and caution have ruled the financial decision-making of many American households. Now, recently released statistics from the Barna Research Group indicate that this pervasive apprehension may have contributed to a dramatic one-year decrease in the number of American homes that tithe to their churches.
Barna’s data shows that only 3 percent of adults contributed 10 percent of their 2002 income to churches, which marks a 62 percent decrease from 2001 when 8 percent of American adults tithed. Among born-again Christians, the decline was similarly steep, from 14 percent in 2001 to 6 percent in 2002. Barna attributes the sudden drop to a variety of factors, including the soft economy and ongoing terrorism threat. But he also pegs shifting church demographics—younger adults don’t share their parents’ and grandparents’ convictions about tithing.
This generation seems not so much put off as mystified by the concept. Their questions are honest enough: “Who came up with the figure of ten percent? Why should we take this figure as authoritative? Isn’t tithing legalism?” Here, as in most churchly matters, a bit of history can go a long way.
Most discussions of tithing begin with the Old Testament precedent, first recorded in Genesis 14:20. After winning an astounding victory in battle and retrieving his nephew Lot along with all his lost possessions, Abram thanked God by giving Melchizedek one-tenth of all he had. Then, in Numbers 18:21, we find tithing included in the Mosaic Law. Its purpose was to provide for the Levites, whom God wanted to concentrate on priestly duties.
While the New Testament contains no explicit command to tithe, many have argued that this relationship between the Levites and the other tribes of Israel prefigures how Christians should provide for their ministers. This view of tithing, known as parallelism, gained prominence in the church around the sixth century.
Many non-Jewish and pre-Christian societies also practiced tithing-like giving. Some ancient sources describe how kings imposed a type of first-fruits tax to maintain holy shrines and support clergy. From Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylonia to the temples of Apollo in Delphi and Athena in Athens, pre-Christian centers of worship collected tithes for their gods. Ancient cultures as disparate as the Greeks and Chinese—including the Arabians, Phoenicians, Romans, and Carthaginians—gave in ways mirroring the tithe. Some scholars believe ancient cultures hit on the seemingly arbitrary figure of one-tenth because they often did calculations on their fingers.
The early church’s views on tithing foreshadowed many of today’s stewardship debates. The Eastern Church began tithing out of obligation because they believed Jesus’ conversation with the rich young man demanded sacrificial generosity. Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeus pleaded with the church to surpass even the Old Testament tithe since Christ had freed them from the Law.
Later church fathers—John Chrysostom, Cyprian, Origen, and Augustine among them—complained from time to time that their followers lacked Christian charity. Chrysostom even shamed his stingy church for marveling at those who tithed. He contrasted their amazement with the dutiful giving of Old Testament Jews.
The early church’s expectation that every Christian would tithe found formal expression at the Synod of Mâçon in 585, which embedded the practice in canon law. A millennium later, the Council of Trent sharpened this law’s teeth: it provided for excommunication if any Catholic declined to contribute his tithe. This, despite the stain in the Church’s monetary record that Luther had so recently uncovered in his critique of papal indulgences.
Post-Reformation Europe, however, didn’t do much better: in the centuries after Luther, secular governments often acted on behalf of the churches by collecting mandatory tithes. These more closely resembled American property taxes than Jewish monetary offerings.
Without a state-imposed tithe, giving in the United States developed quite differently than in Europe. American church leaders have often emphasized the New Testament’s command to give freely and cheerfully, which some leaders have cited to advocate giving less or even more than ten percent. As a result, tithing has been practiced only sporadically in the modern church, though some revival has been seen in recent decades among Baptists and elements of the Wesleyan holiness movement and Pentecostalism.
Still, Barna’s new research reveals that the vast majority of Christians apparently remain unmoved by the message of John Bunyan’s couplet: “There was a man, some called him mad; The more he gave, the more he had.”
Collin Hansen is a freelance writer pursuing degrees in journalism and European history at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. More Christian History, including a list of events that occurred this week in the church’s past, is available at ChristianHistory.net.Subscriptions to the quarterly print magazine are also available.
August 1st, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Lori,
I am going to post a few articles from Christianity Today which is not a crack pot publication.
Q:The tithe is clearly taught in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament it seems to be downplayed. Are those of us who give 10 percent of our income doing something not required?
—K. Dale Miller, Wilmore, Kentucky
A:A simple yes or no to this question would be horribly misleading.
We know that the law of Moses mandated the tithe (see Lev. 27:30-33), at least in part to support the ministry of the Levites (Num. 18:21-24). Like many other laws, however, it was frequently observed in the breach, although the prophets insisted that failure to pay the tithe was nothing less than robbing God (Mal. 3:6-12).
There were also offerings to be paid. Moreover, faithful Israelites were to be generous with their alms, so that the poor of the land were supported.
In practice, the prophets found themselves inveighing against greed and social injustice (e.g., Amos) and against a raw form of capitalism that squeezed out the poor (Isa. 5:8-10). In other words, even within the Old Testament we should be careful not to isolate the tithe from broader demands of generosity and social justice.
The only passage in the New Testament that explicitly authorizes the tithe does so in a rather backhanded way: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices. … But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former” (Matt. 23:23, NIV).
Jesus’ primary point, of course, is to criticize the scrupulous tithing of even a few herbs grown in the back garden if it is at the expense of fundamental issues of justice, integrity, and mercy. But one might have expected Jesus to say, “You should have practiced the latter, and let the herbs take care of themselves”—or some thing equally dismissive. Instead, he says, “You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.”
After the Cross and the Resurrection, the New Testament provides no passage with the same explicit conclusion. That raw fact leads to all the usual debates about the nature of the continuity and discontinuity between the old and new covenants.
Does the tithe continue as a divine mandate because it has not been explicitly abrogated? Or is it part of the “old order” that is passing away?
However we resolve that broad question, all sides agree that some New Testament writers insist that Christians be a giving, generous people (1 Tim. 6:18). So, at very least, we must insist that believers under both covenants are expected to give generously.
Some may wonder, Is the dispute about nothing more than the amount? Is there something about 10 percent that is entrenched in moral law?
The following two points will help focus the issue.
1. Beware of pride. There is always a great spiritual danger in thinking that if in some area we have satisfied a specific, concrete demand we have done everything that God requires. Ten percent is a lot of money to some folks; to others it’s not very much. Isn’t that one of the lessons to be learned from Jesus’ comments about the widow’s mite? To suppose that God demands 10 percent—and nothing more—can itself foster a remarkably independent and idolatrous attitude: “This bit is for God, and the rest is mine by right.” Likewise, if you choose to give more than 10 percent, you may become inebriated from the contemplation of your own generosity.
2. Remember why you’re giving. A strictly legal perspective on giving soon runs into a plethora of complicated debates. Is this 10 percent of gross income or of net? How does this play out in a country where a progressive income-tax system rises to 90 percent of in come? If we choose to tithe from our net income, are we talking “take-home pay” only, or does it include what is withheld for medical insurance and retirement benefits?
It would be easy to list such questions for a page or two without ever asking, “How can I manage my affairs so that I can give more?” That is surely a better question than “What’s the correct interpretation so that I can do whatever’s required and then get on with my life?”
Christians will want to acknowledge with gratitude that they are mere stewards of all that they “possess.” Moreover, New Testament ethics turn not so much on legal prescription as on lives joyfully submitted to God.
This is why the most penetrating New Testament passage on giving is 2 Cor. 8-9. Under severe trial, the Corinthians’ “overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity” (8:2). Even so, they first gave themselves to the Lord (8:5).
So, why not aim for 20 percent in your giving? Or 30? Or more, depending on your circumstances (8:12)? “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that … for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich” (8:9).
By D. A. Carson, research professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.
August 1st, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Here is the second article
Christian History Corner: The Ancient Rise and Recent Fall of Tithing
Is yet another time-honored Christian practice fading from view?
Collin Hansen
June 1, 2003
During the first few years of the twenty-first century, Americans have already contended with a remarkable amount of political and economic tumult, ranging from the Sept. 11 attacks to the collapse of the 1990s economic boom to military conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Uneasiness and caution have ruled the financial decision-making of many American households. Now, recently released statistics from the Barna Research Group indicate that this pervasive apprehension may have contributed to a dramatic one-year decrease in the number of American homes that tithe to their churches.
Barna’s data shows that only 3 percent of adults contributed 10 percent of their 2002 income to churches, which marks a 62 percent decrease from 2001 when 8 percent of American adults tithed. Among born-again Christians, the decline was similarly steep, from 14 percent in 2001 to 6 percent in 2002. Barna attributes the sudden drop to a variety of factors, including the soft economy and ongoing terrorism threat. But he also pegs shifting church demographics—younger adults don’t share their parents’ and grandparents’ convictions about tithing.
This generation seems not so much put off as mystified by the concept. Their questions are honest enough: “Who came up with the figure of ten percent? Why should we take this figure as authoritative? Isn’t tithing legalism?” Here, as in most churchly matters, a bit of history can go a long way.
Most discussions of tithing begin with the Old Testament precedent, first recorded in Genesis 14:20. After winning an astounding victory in battle and retrieving his nephew Lot along with all his lost possessions, Abram thanked God by giving Melchizedek one-tenth of all he had. Then, in Numbers 18:21, we find tithing included in the Mosaic Law. Its purpose was to provide for the Levites, whom God wanted to concentrate on priestly duties.
While the New Testament contains no explicit command to tithe, many have argued that this relationship between the Levites and the other tribes of Israel prefigures how Christians should provide for their ministers. This view of tithing, known as parallelism, gained prominence in the church around the sixth century.
Many non-Jewish and pre-Christian societies also practiced tithing-like giving. Some ancient sources describe how kings imposed a type of first-fruits tax to maintain holy shrines and support clergy. From Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylonia to the temples of Apollo in Delphi and Athena in Athens, pre-Christian centers of worship collected tithes for their gods. Ancient cultures as disparate as the Greeks and Chinese—including the Arabians, Phoenicians, Romans, and Carthaginians—gave in ways mirroring the tithe. Some scholars believe ancient cultures hit on the seemingly arbitrary figure of one-tenth because they often did calculations on their fingers.
The early church’s views on tithing foreshadowed many of today’s stewardship debates. The Eastern Church began tithing out of obligation because they believed Jesus’ conversation with the rich young man demanded sacrificial generosity. Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeus pleaded with the church to surpass even the Old Testament tithe since Christ had freed them from the Law.
Later church fathers—John Chrysostom, Cyprian, Origen, and Augustine among them—complained from time to time that their followers lacked Christian charity. Chrysostom even shamed his stingy church for marveling at those who tithed. He contrasted their amazement with the dutiful giving of Old Testament Jews.
The early church’s expectation that every Christian would tithe found formal expression at the Synod of Mâçon in 585, which embedded the practice in canon law. A millennium later, the Council of Trent sharpened this law’s teeth: it provided for excommunication if any Catholic declined to contribute his tithe. This, despite the stain in the Church’s monetary record that Luther had so recently uncovered in his critique of papal indulgences.
Post-Reformation Europe, however, didn’t do much better: in the centuries after Luther, secular governments often acted on behalf of the churches by collecting mandatory tithes. These more closely resembled American property taxes than Jewish monetary offerings.
Without a state-imposed tithe, giving in the United States developed quite differently than in Europe. American church leaders have often emphasized the New Testament’s command to give freely and cheerfully, which some leaders have cited to advocate giving less or even more than ten percent. As a result, tithing has been practiced only sporadically in the modern church, though some revival has been seen in recent decades among Baptists and elements of the Wesleyan holiness movement and Pentecostalism.
Still, Barna’s new research reveals that the vast majority of Christians apparently remain unmoved by the message of John Bunyan’s couplet: “There was a man, some called him mad; The more he gave, the more he had.”
Collin Hansen is a freelance writer pursuing degrees in journalism and European history at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. More Christian History, including a list of events that occurred this week in the church’s past, is available at ChristianHistory.net.Subscriptions to the quarterly print magazine are also available.
August 1st, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Let’s take a look at Matthew 25: 35-46. It is not tithe specific but talks about giving.
As for tithing yes it’s true. I’ll agree that tithing is to God. You are not tithing but giving freely to God to support church plants both in our country and overseas. You are also giving to God when you give money to a homeless person, support a child in an impoverished country overseas, financially support a womens shelter, or when the Holy Spirit speaks to you and tells you to give $$$ to another person or you visit a person when they are sick, support and give practical help. Rather than giving to another person just to get the warm feelings, it is because you are giving to God. According to Jesus in that passage, you have fed him, clothed him, supported him and given to him when you give to the least of the brethren.
As for tithing it is listed in OT law but in the NT Jesus raises the standard of the law. Take the widow who gave the all she had. It was MORE than 10% but given willingly. Jesus wants you to give much more with a willing heart rather than just the 10% to meet the requirements.
So, is a church giving to God, when millions on dollars are NOT being emphasized on giving to the least, such as church plants overseas (especially in impoverished areas), womens shelters, clinics and outreach ministries, to reach out to at-risk kids, HIV/AIDS infected people, drug addicts, homeless, mentally ill and the list could go on. These people are desperately needing Christ in their lives. If you went out in the world, there are so many needs. I dont think you can ever run out of needs out there. As a church or body of believers we are supposed to be the hands and feet of Jesus. We need to meet these people at these situations and show them the love of Christ.
For those who are in CBC or any MFI church, how much money, time and effort goes to the ones who need Jesus the most. Instead, these churches are like the Pharisees that like to be seated on every banquet, spend time being seen with the important people. If Jesus walked into one of the megachurches of today, he would probably not be let in.
How would you feel if the money is spent for self-promoting things such as multi screens, lighting, and other frivilous materialistic things. And these pastors have several books and make money out of them. I have no problem with that. If someone wants to use their gifts for God, it’s great. The only thing I hate is using spirituality or God for own selfish purposes.
Is bigger necessarily bettter? And how about a forward together campaign that occurred years ago where the leadership felt called to raise millions…which is nothing but except at the end of the campaign, people who gave the most were awarded plaques. If you are giving to God, why would you want a plaque or award? When I saw that I thought it was unbelievable. I worked as an intern in this church, went through their Bible college and was a group leader and involved in activities till I saw that the emphasis wasnt on Jesus. I stepped down and later left.
Based on that is that church giving to God? Lori, what is your definition of giving to God. Please, don’t flare but rather discuss in a mature, calm and matter of fact manner and stating your points if you would like to be taken seriously. And I’m okay with agreeing to disagree.
August 1st, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Sorry about the double post.
To be honest, it took me 2 days of research to put into question an entire lifetime of teaching. If you look at the OT tithes, there were different types of tithes mentioned. They are all different. One is a celebration tithe that is brought and the people eat of their own tithe, and leave with what is left over. Another is a tithe taken every 3rd year to give to the poor. Another was basically a temple tax instituted by Nehemiah when they were rebuilding. The other was the tithe given to support the Levites.
The offerings were always a gift to God. The tithes were not always described that way. The 2 get mixed together in our modern churches and that is where things can get a bit dicey. The need to give sacrificially to God gets mixed in with supporting the building and the pastoral staff. God wants both to happen IMO. I know of congregations that thought it was their job to keep their pastors poor which just ain’t right either.
Somewhere there has to be a bit more transparency in the entire situation. When you give to the church more is happening than simply honoring God. It has always been that way and always will be.
August 1st, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Voice of Reason,
Those are some good posts. I think as Christians we should continaully be challenged to give our entire lives to God…money and all.
Where I run into a problem is when someone sets up a church, says God told them to, then says “I am collecing 10% of your income on behalf of God and you can’t see how much money I make. By the way, God will give you a 10 fold return on your money to me, and if you don’t tithe, your finances will be cursed by God”.
When I am told that…I smell a rat. Especially when a single mother who lost her job because she had cancer got cut off after $600 of help…and this woman had been tithing for years to that church. All the while, the pastor was living like a King. (true story)
If tithes were that important, I would expect the Apostles (who were writing to non-Jews) would mention it at least once to those unlearned in the Jewish practices if they were to continue. In stead, Paul said to give to those who don’t have…not to give to those who have so you can ge their anointing.
Jesus said, it is more blessed to give than to recieve…
I dont’ think it is bad to discipline yourself to give 10%, I do think it is bad the way some churches give threats and false promises for tithing…as if it is some magical formula.
If you go to some of these churches enough, you think Jesus died on the cross so we can experience the awesome blessing of the tithe…and salvation was an afterthought.
August 2nd, 2008 at 7:43 am
Lori = Idiot??
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:53 am
Sovereign Grace Ministries has a sad way of dealing with disagreement. From what I have seen and read, most disagreement or questioning is considered a threat by leadership. They thrive on people that almost blindly submit to their authority.
Some great blogs that discuss the problems with Sovereign Grace Ministries including are:
www.sgmsurvivors.com (formerly www.sgmuncensored.com)
www.sgmrefuge.com
www.spritualtyranny.com
www.ikissedsgmgoodbye.com
I also have a blog where I discuss my ideas about Josh Harris’s book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye.” One of my big issues with his books is that he fails to acknowledge any of the problems with his approach but is quick to point out all the defects of dating. Harris also doesn’t seem to be willing to accept responsibility for or do much to try and correct the legalistic way many have implemented his approach.
www.ikdg.wordpress.com
“I Kissed Dating Goodbye: Wisdom or Foolishness?”
August 2nd, 2008 at 8:49 pm
I’m late to the party on this one, but I’d like to steer it back to the original topic.
I’ve personally kept my real name hidden because I still have friends and family in MFI churches. My initial concern was that they would take my stance against tithing as a personal attack, rather than as an objective opposition against tithing itself. If the comments of people like Lori are any indication, then I don’t doubt that people in MFI churches would label me all sorts of terrible things. They might even judge my parents for raising such a rebel.
I still struggle with whether or not remaining anonymous because I feel like some of these arguments could be ended by citing my own personal experiences inside CBC circles. But then others with bigger credentials have come and gone on this web site, like Larry Asplund and Tom Sparks. Still, I wonder if I’m just being too loyal to friends who don’t deserve it.
August 2nd, 2008 at 9:48 pm
FICM,
I understand where you are coming from. I am also under a pseudonym here and avoid discussing certain details that are dead giveaways for that reason. I still have good friends and family members that attend CBC and I dont believe I’m being too loyal. There are some really awesome people that I’m still close to. Some of them are brand new believers and I dont want to confuse them. I think it’s wise to want unity and trust God. From time to time, I constantly watch my own thoughts for unforgiveness, bitterness and resentment. Why? It’s true that I’ve been hurt at CBC but that does not excuse me from wrong unhealthy attitudes because I’m still accountable to God for my behaviors and I need to practice grace that has been given to me.
I discuss the details of my reasons for leaving CBC with few people only if they ask and if I feel they are ready to listen. I’ve only discussed the details with 3 people and I feel that’s enough. I dont like having unfruitful discussions and I see more harm in them. Sometimes I just say, “I feel that the Lord has guided me to another church” and end it because my intuition tells me not to.
Remember you don’t owe everyone an explanation. Some may wonder but let them. It’s sometimes wise not to speak your thoughts on stance on things. I learned that the hard way. Yes, there will always be people like Lori and there will always be those who quickly judge your intentions and quick to label. Let them.
I’ll continue to keep my pseudonym because I’m not sure if I have ever met some of you in person but then again I may have.
August 6th, 2008 at 11:31 am
FICM,
If you have family still tied firmly to the old world, it’s harder to completely disentangle yourself from the effects of their legalism. Plus you are trying to protect them and you don’t want to cause them pain — so I can see why you still use your FICM name. There may come a time you’ll want to use a real name, but the beauty of blogging is being able to remain anomous and mull through your thoughts and feelings. No one says you have to reveal your identity except for the people still in these churches who are defending them and think we are all the ‘devil’s tools’.
We posted an article called How Really Out Are You? , if you are interested, that may help you gage where you are at as far as leaving the old religious system behind. It’s based on our observations of people who left our former church as well as learning from our personal experiences. We can’t even pretend to know everything about leaving a controlling church, but talking it out, blogging it too, has been so helpful for us. I suppose it’s just food for thought more than anything, especially since there is no RULE that says you have to be a certain way. All of us are at different points in the journey as far as getting over stuff and moving on from it. And to think that the catharsis (for us) started with this CBC Blog! Too cool! It’s always fun to return and find out the latest thoughts from our fellow ‘nonconformists’.
August 6th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Thanks, DeTox. I read your list, and I checked them all off easily. I feel like I’ve come really far in shaking off religion. My dilemma has less to do with my own journey and more to do with the journey of others. As Paul encouraged us in Romans 14, we shouldn’t let our freedom cause our brothers and sisters to become offended with us or fall into sin. It’s better to keep the peace than it is to stir things up just because we’re more “mature”. (Yes, I use that term very loosely!) In that sense, I’d rather keep things like dinner with family members and old friends from becoming a hostile zone. The number one question I get these days is, “So where are you going to church?” Little do they know I feel lucky to have a found a church where I actually feel good about going occasionally. I think I’ve only been to church twice this summer. And I don’t feel bad about it, in fact I’m having a really great time! haha
August 6th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Correction: The number one question is, “When are you getting married?” Followed closely by “Where are you going to church?”
August 6th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Thanks DeTox, great list. I must really be out there because I have stepped far, far away from each one of those points. Do you mind if I use your list and add some variation to it for an upcoming post?
August 7th, 2008 at 7:14 am
FICM said:
I can relate — as I’m sure all CBC bloggers can, those of us who have family still within the vortex. It’s sometimes painful for us and for them. They truly think we went off the deep end and we truly think they are in a cult-like environment needing an intervention.
As for keeping the MFI type friends in your life: It’s a given you are stuck with family but the friends are another story. You can distance yourself from them if they are more toxic than not. But you sound like you already know that. Maybe you are coming to a place where they are less tolerable to you than before.
Same here!! I was actually blogging on Still Not Ready to Help at Church yesterday on our blog so it’s funny you say that. One whole paragraph is dedicated to why we can only go to church when we want to instead of HAVING to go. We are much happier people because of it and when we do go it’s a good experience. I think I’ve only gone a couple times this summer too! There’s always Bob on Chanel 9 and podcasts. (you get Bob’s weekend scripture talk without running into the lurking religious Christians!)
August 7th, 2008 at 7:28 am
That’d be great Reformer! We’d be honored so Post away!
Just to dignify — some of those embarrassing items on the check list are aimed toward some people we know who are drawn to all the ‘woo woo’ stuff which we (the Detox writers) never got into. Even when we were warped in MFI world we weren’t watching TBN, reading the Elijah List and all that.
After we left some others finally got out in the next year or so. But we were finding that they were still needing to feed a curious addiction– the craving was evident in what they talked about (and still talk about). They aren’t alone though — There is a large percentage of the church at large hungry for all the frenzy — that’s why they trek to Florida, Brazil, Toronto in search of the latest manifestation fringe revival. Not saying God won’t ever pour out his Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is known for being a Gentleman not a circus puppeteer.
August 7th, 2008 at 7:30 am
After you get married the question switches to “So, when are you having a baby?” and after that it’s “So, are you going to have another baby?” It never ends!!
August 10th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
I check in with your blog from time to time. I agree with some of what is said regarding the spirit that permeates the big churches that we all know. I grew up with a lot of you at CBC or BT as it was known then. I left the church and God many years ago, hurt and broken. When I finally came back to God I went back to a church that is part of the MFI organization. I now attend another MFI church out of state. In both of those churches Tithing is encouraged and I do give my 10% every payday. Power bills have to be paid and if someone needs grocerys, the money has to come from someplace. I get that. In both churches they have an “open book” policy regarding the finances of the church. If at anytime I want to know what is being spent and where, I can. Yes, for fun I did ask just to see what would happen and I was not excommunicated. At my church we teach our people to give because we love. Not to get anything. If you don’t want to give, and you can’t give with a grateful heart don’t do it. What you give is between you and God. If you are giving because you are told you have to if you want a blessing, its blackmail. God is not so small that he needs any of our money. But he does want our heart and let’s face it, we love our money. It represents our time and success. I give because he gave me everything. I go to church on Sunday because I love it. If I want to take a Sunday off….no problem. My pastor will actually tell you to take a weekend off. A very different philosophy then what I was raised with. I just want to point out….MFI church. Not all of them are bad. Just like not all people at CBC or City Church are bad. I am a mature adult. I have a strong relationship with God. I don’t do anything because someone tells me I have to. Sometime ago I grew up.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:36 am
As has been stated before, these MFI churches rally around eachother and support the church over the congregation. So just because your MFI church doesn’t directly preach the prosperity doctrine, they indirectly support it, by supporting the MFI churches that do preach this doctrine. Thus, you might still have a little more growing up to do.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Hmmm….food for thought said:
August 10th, 2008 at 6:32 pmI am a mature adult. I have a strong relationship with God. I don’t do anything because someone tells me I have to. Sometime ago I grew up.
That’s great for you but there are a lot of young people and other adults that aren’t grown up attending these churches looking for answers and help in their Christian walk.
So in other words if a person is not completely mature and grown up it is their fault that they end up destroyed in these sick systems! Another typical attitude coming out of the MFI teachings. A real caring community.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
I can see the point you are making and respect your opinion.
I don’t agree that by attending a MFI church that has a doctrine I agree with means that I am in anyway involved with, or responsible for, another church whose doctrine I don’t agree with. By using that logic everyone who shops at a store that sells Nike would be responsible for the way Nike manufactures their product.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Sadly this is a bigger problem than just MFI. As soon as pesky people get involved with anything it gets messed up, because people are messed up. Of course its not their fault, don’t be silly.
As far as I know there are no such things as “MFI teachings”.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Doctrinal issues aside, if you pick up a secular management book, you will find all of the same problems with leadership in the pages of those books. Non-profit leadership is some of the toughest leadership to do. Pastors often step into that world with little training and few resources. They then look to the “big, successful pastors” for answers which is where some things begin to go wrong.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:39 am
Not you. Your pastor. Your pastor indirectly supports the prosperity doctrine by joining an organization that actively defends it. And please tell me you recognize the difference between buying a product, and joining an organization.
August 12th, 2008 at 6:31 am
If you knowingly buy stolen goods, you are committing a crime. If you help a murderer in an attempt to escape the law you can be held liable for murder. Turning a blind eye to illegal trading by your broker will land you in jail (ask Martha Stewart). Culpability is a sticky ethical question. But there is real precedent in both legal and everyday terms of being responsible for how you interact with others whom you know to be unethical. Sometimes society demands that you draw the line and take a stand and other times it’s willing to let people be selfish. But to say, “I’m not the one doing wrong, so it’s not my problem” is apathetic and irresponsible. Nobody likes to think about law enforcement of drugs until their family member is destroyed by an addiction. There are many people whose conscience won’t allow them to buy Nike shoes or other products that may be produced by child labor. Rather than say “it’s not my problem” they choose to take the moral high ground. Why is it the world is more ready to do this while Christians seem to worry more about fitting in to their church culture?
Granted, MFI is a strange arrangement in that it is not a true denomination. It is a coalition of pastors and not churches. But, that doesn’t remove the responsibility of your pastor to stand up for what is right. If your pastor is condoning the bad doctrine of other pastors he is “in fellowship” with, then he’s just as culpable in my opinion. If the other pastors were sinning, would it not be his duty to point it out and if necessary break fellowship with them?
Speaking of MFI’s structure, it’s a key element of their system that the pastor be a member and not the church. As we saw play out in Gray’s Harbor, it gives them the power to establish pastors as absolute monarchs over churches without regard to the will of the people in the church. This control element is why they thrive and why every church member with an MFI pastor should be worried and scared. If the elders of a church can’t rebuke a bad pastor, you may as well be in a cult. (Yup, I used the “c” word. I’m not saying that MFI churches are cults, but that kind of absolute control is very cult-ish.) And it’s another reason that any pastor who knowingly joins and remains in MFI is culpable of the abuses of other churches. He’s promoting a system that actively encourages pastors to establish absolute control over people. How is this OK with people?
August 12th, 2008 at 11:56 am
This is starting to sound like the Masons. Depending on what degree you are that is the level of understanding you have about the true nature of the group! ha ha