Now I know the topic of tithing has been beaten to death here at City Business Church, but some of our readers have recently shown that they still don't get it. So for those of you who need a little refresher, here are some key points on what the Bible says about tithing. CLICK HERE for a full scriptural review.
Key Points:
1) There is nothing in the bible to conclude that Abraham regularly tithed on his own personal property or livestock, but rather on the booty from conflict (Heb. 7:1-10).
2) Jacob wouldn't tithe until God blessed him first, not the reverse (Gen. 28:20-22). And when he did tithe it was with his family and for the poor (Deut. 12:6-7, Deut. 14:29).
3) Only Levite priests could collect tithe (which we don't have today) (Num. 18:24-28).
4) Only food from the land was tithable, not the air or the sea (Lev. 27:30-33).
5) Money was not tithed.
6) Christian converts (Gentiles) were never instructed to tithe under the new covenant and at this point in history, Israelites owe no duty to tithe either (Key quote: "Read all thirteen books of the apostle Paul to the gentiles. There is not one verse where he instructed Gentiles to pay one cent of tithe money to anyone").
7) The doctrine of tithing did not appear in the church until centuries after completion of the Bible.
Giving is voluntary, not required (Matt. 10:8).
Best suggestion for giving:
"Give to the fatherless, the orphans, the strangers, the widows, the poor, and the needy, the homeless, and the beggar on the street, as God gives to you, the wherewithal. Give to reputable charities if you have extra. Give to your family members and relatives in need—don’t humiliate them by making them ask you first. Give to a neighbor in financial distress. Even when tipping someone, let it be a reflection of the One that you are representing in your Christian walk. Our God is a generous God—may you become generous also."
Someone should print a thousand copies of this post on fluorescent paper and put them on the windshield of every car in the CBC parking lot one Sunday.
… Along with an open invitation to Frank and every other leader in CBC to join in the discussion here at CityBusinessChurch.org and share their thoughts.
I dare you!
Actually, given the readiness of CBC executives to launch frivolous lawsuits (or at least threaten them), I think it would be best to stay away from the privately owned (by CBC) church parking lot.
Instead, whomever wishes to take up my dare would be better positioned immediately outside the first parking entrance at the domes. This is public property, and anyone can use it.
So, feel free to stand in the middle of the road and hand out the papers to each car that wants to drive out of the parking lot. It’s an ideal spot since it is a nice little bottleneck that every church parking lot user must drive on that road to exit the area.
When the police arrive, be sure to have your hand on the speed-dial for your phone, so that local news media are informed that police presence was asked for by CBC to remove you from your right to freedom of speech and freedom of press. I’m sure they’ll agree it would be a fascinating article, and this blog can easily handle the new visitors.
Not a big fan of L Ray. His attitude on some of his stuff is “off”. I have no concrete way to explain it.
The challenge for me is that tithing has taught me to be generous and handle my money more effectively. My fear is that folks will stop being generous because the pressure is off. I’m not for all of the pressure but I am for being generous. As I have worked with people in church and in the community, I have found that too many folks have money for what they want but whine about the money they don’t have. Well, if you did not spend $40 at the bar on Saturday, you might have been able to pay the power bill. Do you need every cable channel? You make $12/hr can you afford a $30,000 car? On and on it goes. I know that has nothing to do with doctrine, but it has everything to do with people’s hearts and motives.
Maybe I am just dealing with my own issues. As I have been studying this issue, I have said to myself, “Man, I can give half of what I give now and pay down my debts faster.” I just hate to see people not be challenged to generosity.
Shouldn’t we see Pastors who still “challenge people to generosity” without saying “God commands you to give 10% of your income to us?”
It doesn’t have to be one way or the other in my book. You can still teach on generosity without all the manipulation.
I have always said, Give, give, give. Give your time, give your money, give your prayers.
This blog isn’t against giving…it’s against the lie that is Manitory Tithe.
RP: I completely understand. The funny thing is that even with the teaching most people don’t tithe anyway.
I wonder if this should make us wonder if we really have been given a new heart by God if money is such a big issue. Jesus said we can’t serve two masters…He didn’t say it was hard to serve two masters.
I personally think we are too soft on sin these days…we are too afraid to offend anyone when Jesus told a church He would spit them out of His mouth….
If we see our brother in lack, but we can’t control our spending to help them out (without wild promises or demeaning threats), has our heart been truly softened by the unimaginable gift given to us on the cross? Me thinks not…
I recently heard a story from a long time ago about Frank making a snide remark about the amount of a check that a person gave in an offering. It was for a small amount and Frank questioned their faith openly. Well it turns out the giver had written a check on the last few dollars they had in their bank account (as Jesus taught). Fearless Frank just mocked him for his offering because it was not big enough, even though he had nothing more to give. Pretty sad.
The Reformer wrote:
I think that is gossip. As much as we might think the story to be true, the bible tells us that gossip and those who gossip are not good folks. For this blog to have credability, we need to make sure we try to stay away from that stuff. Maybe invite the person who told the story to share directly?
Just keepin’ it real.
Really? You struggle with this? I think Jesus would actually want us to be free from debt so that we could give freely as the Holy Spirit leads us. If you’re in debt, your money belongs to someone else and it can’t be given to a more worthy cause. Granted there is “good debt” in things like a mortgage or a school loan, but most people carry “bad debt” in cars, credit cards, personal loans, etc. I would rather see someone pay off their debt first before giving to the church, personally.
There are numerous themes throughout the Bible that teach us that being in debt is a very bad thing. Even in OT times, there was a year of Jubilee every 50 years that was a time to wipe out private debts. God hated debt so much he made sure it was removed from Jewish society. Jesus told several parables that dealt with making money or forgiving debts. He also told people to give without expecting a return (no loans). “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another.” There are numerous warnings in Proverbs against being in debt.
At the risk of perpetuating a stereotype, I think the Jewish people have a reputation for being wealthy penny-pinchers, to put it kindly. Like all stereotypes, there is some truth in the picture being painted, and I think it’s because the Jewish culture is deeply ingrained with good sense about knowing the importance of staying out of debt.
Speaking from personal experience, I finally became debt-free in January of this year (not counting my school loans). The money I used to pay for my car, loans and credit cards now goes into savings. I have nearly 2 months of salary saved in just 6 months and I just got done fixing my car and paying cash for the job. I’ve also given money to family members during this period. I can give without fear because I am no longer owned by anyone. I am more prosperous and “blessed” now than any other time of my life when I was tithing. And you can take that to the bank.
Ah, you nice Christians are always so worried about being church PC. It’s kinda cute I guess. Anyway, gossip is when you spread lies, not truth. Gossip is something done in secret, not public. Gossip is a method to tear down and defame, not correct. What I stated here is a true story, shared from the pulpit with 1,000+ people present, as an example of how wrong Franky boy is when it comes to money. It’s meant to bring correction. That's not gossip, that's called truth. And I would never ask someone to out themselves on here just to share a story. That is not my place.
This is the problem with many Americans, tithers and non-tithers. I agree that Christians should be better stewards with their money and if they can't pay their bills first, they shouldn't tithe. Mandatory tithing does not often foster generosity, but rather a "look at me" attitude. Many people like our friend Lori, begin to think that they are better then others because they faithfully tithe, yet she has no biblical basis for it. The "I'm a good Christian" syndrome is at the root of the American churches downfall right now. Besides if someone making $12/hr is stupid enough to buy a $30,000 car then they have a lot bigger issues with money then choosing to tithe or not. They should probably see a financial planner before giving any more money away.
The current mortgage crisis is the result of people buying houses that they could not afford. Americans have a problem with consumerism/greed/materialism.
FICM: My family now spends considerably less than we make. It is just that for 12 years, we spent more than we made. The crazy thing about debt and credit is that if you pay your bills the banks will continue to give you more and more credit. The question for me is how long will it take us to get out of debt, not whether we will or will not. While on staff at the MFI church, we counseled people who could not pay their bills to let us help them get on a budget and keep the bills paid.
It’s not really a christian/non-christian thing. It’s more of a credibility-type thing, like hearsay. I think you would agree that just because it was said from the pulpit doesn’t make it true, as much as you might want it to be.
I’m not pro-CBC or pro-Frank but from that illustration, to me it doesn’t seem that it is about the person. To be honest I’m still failing to see the connection between that bird stealing the offering and the person that gave the few dollars.
Yes, I’ll admit sometimes there is a bit of manipulation when asking for tithes. This is a true story. I was at GU last year and when Pastor Doug was giving an offering speech, he actually said “God wants you to be disciplined in your finances. If you don’t give your tithe, God will not want you to get married.”
huh?
Doug went on to repeat his story about the time he wanted to marry Donna and that her father wouldn’t say yes right away. He said its because his finances werent in order and that was God’s way of teaching him about finances or something along the lines.
I thought that was irrelevant and could be taken in a legalistic manner. So the motivation of giving tithes is so that God can bring you a good marriage? That is another way of wanting something back.
As for tithing, my thoughts are I think as Christians we should give more to others than just the 10% with a willing heart by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. But I’m not going to pay my tithe so that the church can get another pointer and screen or anything frivilous. The Holy Spirit will guide, convict and deal with a person who is stingy.
Also, this is off topic but how does the story of Anaias and Saphira fit into the concept of giving?
I don’t think this story in Acts 5:1-11 has anything to do with tithing.
It is about *lying*. To God. And then thinking you can get away with it.
Basically, they were killed because they lied to god. They sold their land and proclaimed that they were giving *all* of it to the apostles. But they weren’t.. they were lying and kept some of the money.
This isn’t a story about tithing, or “giving everything to god”. It is pure and simple a story to illustrate god’s view about lying to god.
In short — if you want to live, don’t do it.
Can you think of a better
lietactic formanipulatingencouraging lonely, horny and single young adults? It would seem Doug has stooped to new lows.Doug wasn’t “good enough” in Bob Wagar’s eyes, for whatever, pick a reason. It wasn’t until he became one of the youth pastors and bought into the CBC system wholesale that he had the slightest chance of marrying church royalty. I knew Doug when he first arrived and he told me that when he first came on staff he was making $900 month and was painting on the side just to pay rent, so if he was in the hole financially and couldn’t tithe, it was the church’s fault, not his. To his credit, PF later changed this when he took over, but it’s just one reason of many in a tangled web of complications in CBC church life.
It had nothing to do with tithing or that they were even required to give. Their giving was voluntary and they could have done it any way that they wanted. But they fell victim to both greed and pride. They wanted everyone to think they were being sacrificially generous in order to look good, but it was a lie. Their dishonesty was punished, not their desire or ability to give. Had they simply presented the gift of cash without saying where it had come from, I’m sure no one would have cared.
gotcha
Nah, its sometimes difficult to convey your thoughts online in a discussion forum when u dont want to be long or lengthy, since we cant hear each others voices or see facial expression its easy to misunderstand.
I believe in giving but its the Holy Spirit that guides. I dont want to give my 10% tithe to a church so that they can have another laser pointer or huge plasma screens.
…or how about for the pastor to build a 3,000 sq. ft. retirement home on a 5 acre ranch in southern Oregon (true story)…or how about for a pastor to have a full time limousine with driver to take him everywhere he needs to go (another true story)…or maybe for the pastor and his entire family to take a 3 week vacation in Fiji (again, a true story)…all on the churches checkbook.
The Reformer said: or how about for the pastor to build a 3,000 sq. ft. retirement home on a 5 acre ranch in southern Oregon (true story)…or how about for a pastor to have a full time limousine with driver to take him everywhere he needs to go (another true story)…or maybe for the pastor and his entire family to take a 3 week vacation in Fiji (again, a true story)…all on the churches checkbook.
What kind of stories are those pastors telling themselves in order to be doing such things? How can they live with themselves? Why don’t they spread some of that wealth around?
I once heard of a church that took a portion of the tithes and systematically paid down all of the members mortgages and bills until every member was debt free.
Nina,
In terms of Doug, I have to agree with FICM. I knew Doug quite well from the time he arrived at BT until he married Donna. I knew Donna well, too. The reasons Bob Wagar didn’t think Doug was “worthy of his daughter” had nothing to do with Doug’s finances, but with things that Doug can’t ever change about himself. I can’t even begin to reconcile the Doug I knew then with the Doug he has become over the past decade. There’s no comparison. I think you can guess which Doug I preferred.
In terms of tithing, we’ve hashed this and re-hashed this topic on this blog. Cheerful giving, from the heart, proportionate to income, based on the Lord’s leading. That’s NT giving. And if we’re truly giving along these lines, it’s likely we give more than 10% (now, whether it’s 10% of gross or net, that’s up for debate).
How does someone telling a story about Frank in front of a thousand people bring correction? I think we all know what this story was told for. More built up hate for CBC. I’m sure the speaker has a long list of arguments against the way Frank has done things in the past and so he is using the pulpet for his own agendas against people. That’s sad. If he wants to talk about tithing or giving he should use some biblical illustrations that have some encouranging examples of why or why not to give.
How does someone telling a story about Frank in front of a thousand people bring correction?
The same way Frank telling his stories in front of a thousand people brought correction. What’s the difference?
Do you know what your talking about?
[Comment ID #34218 Will Be Quoted Here]
Hi Lori, welcome back. Still haven’t shown me where it says that I need to tithe in the New Testament, but I’ll let it slide. I understand you are just preaching what you’ve been taught. I was there once too.
Anyway, I think you are a little confused about this story. No one shared this story about Frank in front of thousands of people, it was Frank who publicly shared at City Bible about the mans small offering, which was the last few dollars that man had.
I thought this was funny.
[Comment ID #34152 Will Be Quoted Here]
come on…
hear-say?…
that’s your facts? Jeez. Thats like people saying, “Dude, I here these people on this website making fun of this church just want an excuse to weed, drink and sex it up…” Oh wait.
Sheesh you people are so confused. Maybe you should scroll up and read all the posts first. We already had this discussion and the person who was there came on to validate the story. And not sure who you are talking to but of the people I know who are faithful bloggers here at CBC, all are God fearing people with great jobs and families. Not sure where you got the idea that this website is an excuse to do drugs, drink, and have sex, but it is a very dumb ass assumption, ignorant, and flat out wrong.
You people!?! What do you mean you people?
You must be new to church. Because, uh, Christians do all those things as well. They just don’t admit it.
I know this, because I was heavily involved in City Bible for awhile. There was more sex taking place in their intern program than in most college dorms.
Forget the intern program…people (teenagers) were having sex IN the church…every room they could possibly manage except the sanctuary.
Forget the intern program…people (teenagers) were having sex IN the church…every room they could possibly manage except the sanctuary.
Down here on the harbor they were having sex IN the church too. Every room they could possibly manage INCLUDING the sanctuary. Only down here it’s the pastors having all of the sex not the teenagers! Talk about giving it all to the church. ha ha
The best thing is, if you do insist on following the Levitical Tithe, you’re doing it all wrong. With two thirds of your tithes you are commanded to throw a very large and exorbitant party for yourself, your family and your friends, not forgetting those in need. It’s only every third year that you need to tithe to the “Levites” (ie. the church).
No, I’m not kidding. See this post for explanation.
Seems churches miss this part out on a regular basis.
OK. This is an old post but I am looking for the perspective of CBC bloggers. I am still looking for a church in my new city. I have been here for 3 months.
The place that I am looking at is doing a series on money/finances. The two weeks I have been there they have referenced giving 10%. No claims of riches, healings or anything else for doing it. Last week, the pastor mentioned a number of places that 10% could go. No pressure or guilt involved. One odd statement though, but for 2 weeks talking about money that is not too bad.
So, 2 questions:
1. What do you think about the teaching of 10% with no pressure or promises attached?
2. I feel like the idea of 10% has turned more anecdotal than biblical in approach. At this point, people say it without even referencing anything. Yet, I have a desire to be part of a local church and I feel I will have to live with this issue to some extent if I am going to find a place. This church does not pass a plate and has purchased the building they are in without a large capital campaign. I am not sure what they did. I have only been there twice, but I know that they did not do the “follow the giving” thing with the congregation. What do ya’ll think about that?
I suppose I’m quite burned out on hearing money issues in church. It would be Sooo nice to hear the gospel preached freely. At this point, I’d walk right out if I went to a new church and the first thing I heard was a series on $$$$. If people need counsel in financial things, it should be a side issue, like a Wednesday night class. Sunday morning should be for the gospel and baptisms and a meal eaten together.
Why don’t they go in together for a group rate subscription to Money Magazine. The advice would likely be a lot better!
[Comment ID #35911 Will Be Quoted Here]
Couldn’t agree with this more. How about a church where there is never a message on money? How about a church that focuses on Jesus and reaching people? How about a church that lets God guide it’s members into deciding how much they want to give? Not that your church is bad Fred, just wondering why church’s always have to preach on money? I say let God direct people’s giving and let the church figure out how to spend what they got. Less giving means less waste. When money is tight, churches prioritize, just like everyone else.
Reformer:
It is not a series on giving, but on God’s perspective on money. With that in mind, how are folks supposed to know God’s perspective on money? This week’s message was about stewardship/management/”all we have is the Lord’s”. Are folks supposed to figure it out by themselves? While Jesus did not talk a great deal about giving, he did talk about money or use it as an illustration quite a bit. Even issues of social justice often come down to how we spend our money. The prophets are full of admonitions agaiinst greed and for helping folks with our finances. These are money issues. Are you suggessting that these scriptures be ignored or passed over?
Again, I have been to this church twice, so I have no reason to defend it. I just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.
[Comment ID #35914 Will Be Quoted Here]
Ah yes, we are talking a bit different here. I am referring to messages on tithing and giving that so many churches preach at least once a month. If you are talking a message on money and good stewardship, that is much different.
However I take issue with the statement, “Are folks supposed to figure it out by themselves?” That to me implies that people aren’t smart enough to manage there money without the church telling them how. Again, in my perspective that goes back to the control issue that I have a problem with. For the most part, I think people should figure out on their own what God wants them to do with their money. I don’t need a church to tell me that.
Reformer:
Again, what about the scriptures that do give us some direction and guidance about how to spend our money? While I don’t think the folks that say God would or would not drive certain vehicles are on track. Nor the folks that think low taxes are a Christian issue. But I think God does give us some perspective. As I asked earlier, do we pass by the scriptures that give us some direction? Is it control when you simply interpret the scriptures? The same approach that would tell you that tithing is not a biblical mandate would lead one to believe that God does not mandate but values certain ways of handling your money.
I know from experience that teaching values is way more effective in today’s world than mandates and rules. When values are taught people can make their own decisions. My church visits aside, I think the values need to be taught. Reaching the unchurched and teaching values are connected. If you reach someone who knows nothing about Christ, how are they going to figure out how God’s kingdom is different than the world if it is not taught? How are experienced christians going to be challenged anew with truths they already know if that information is relegated to a Wednesday night class which most people do not attend?
Again, Fred I think we are shooting the same gun here…just in different directions. Churches should teach whatever the hell they want to about money. However, the should not tell people what to do with their money. Direction and guidance is good. Force and control is bad.
Thanks Reformer