Here is a Sunday message if anyone is interested in discussing. Disclaimer: I never went to bible school and have a pure secular education (oh the horror) but I do read my bible and my focus here will be more then 5 points on how to break down a verse.
Luke 15:11-32: Almost everyone has heard the story of the prodigal son. It's right up there with the sermon on the mount and John 3:16. However, in my many years of sitting in church pews hearing this story I've often heard it preached from the standpoint of the prodigal son only. Preachers talk all about how we can come to God and He (as the prodigal sons father did) will accept us, clean us up and make us right. Of course I agree with this, however I don't think Jesus taught this story to only emphasize the prodigal son, but rather the response of the faithful one as well. You see when the the father welcomed the prodigal home the faithful son became angry (verse 28) and lashed out at his father for not rejoicing over his faithfulness the same way he had over the prodigals return. And how did the father respond? He said "son, all that I have is yours" (verse 31).
Today most people in church are a lot like the faithful son; highly religious, regularly attending to the Fathers purpose, going to church, paying their tithes and dedicating years of service to ministry. Like the older brother they are faithful and never stray far from God's people. They toil and labor for recognition and acceptance, climbing the spiritual ladder to gain a position of authority. They are so focused on living "good" that they never truly live in Him. The quest for money, position and power in the church dominates their weekly focus. And after years of living this way they become prideful and arrogant in how they've lived "proper" and "upright." The problem soon becomes that they don't want to see God openly accept someone who has lived a total train wreck of a life, unless that person conforms to their ways. This is why they tell you that once you become a Christian you have to stop doing this, avoid doing that, stay away from there, and begin to faithfully serve the church. They reason that because they have done it for so many years, now that person should to. This is why you see very little variation in these kind of churches. They are structured the same, with people who dress, act, talk and look the same. Eventually they all become mindless robots in a factory line of conformation.
But when we look to the story of the prodigal son, we find that God has a very different standard towards us then we often think. The truth is that God doesn't care where we came from or what we've been doing, and He doesn't ask us to change for the sake of changing or being good. This story tells me that the person who thinks his faithfulness makes him justified in Christ is just as wrong as the person who lives reckless in Christ. That's because there's no pecking order with Him. All of us our saved under His grace and are on the same level in the eyes of God. There's no spiritual ladder or preferential treatment. When He looks at us He just sees red because He's looking through the lens of Christ, who not only died in our place, but lived in it too! We have been wiped clean and are free to be whoever we want to be. Now that doesn't mean there are no consequences for destructive behavior but there is a difference between grace and mercy, and God's grace is given freely to all in spite of our actions. We just have to accept it. So lets not live like the faithful son thinking everything we do is giving us better standing with God. All that He has is already ours, there's nothing more to earn. He doesn't care how we live, as long as we live for Him.
I have always interpreted that scripture through the eyes of the fatted calf or the mom. It always gave me more freedom in interpretation.
The devotion idea is a good one. It assures some redemptive quality to the site. : )
I think so too. Please email me any topics, scriptures, or ideas on stuff you would like to discuss. This is an open forum. Thanks.
reformer.for.change@gmail.com
Interesting topic Reformer, also a good distraction from the personal attacks this blog has had lately.
Curious regarding you reformed ones, my experience with reformed Christians is this overly ‘false’ humility where God is SOOOO sovereign, they have no right to ask for anything, if you’re broke, sick, whatever, the prayers I heard were always so anemic – like “God thanks for not killing me today, and if it doesnt bother you too much, please help me make my mortgage payment this month, but only if it’s your will, I deserve nothing and have no rights, I’m a sinner who deserves to die, blah blah blah”
BS! I’m His child, God wants to give us all good things and with NO faith, it’s impossible to please Him.
In fact I had a conversation with one of my good reformed friends and talked about the older brother in this story and all the things he missed out on because he didnt ask and yet had rights to ALL his father owned – she agreed with me.
Yes ultimately God is sovereign, but I read alot of verses that say Ask, even IF you ask amiss God will guide you in your asking – this false humility crap bugs me. And no I dont ascribe to the prosperity gospel, but I do ask, not just for money but for all my desires to be fulfilled because it’s scriptural. I truly dont understand my reformed friends. they really piss me off sometimes.
do enlighten me…
Seeing as though this is an open forum…
A Sunday word…
A blog that has the word ‘church’ in it…
3 self appointed leaders…
Where is the “parody” again?
Starting to look like a frustrated preacher who wants to do an online church.
JM, you’re turning into a troll. Start saying something of substance, or I’m going to start deleting your comments.
Only 2 of the leaders are self appointed…the others were all voted in by the congregation.
Um, where in my post does it say don’t ask God for anything? I’ve never thought that or preached that. Maybe you’re just reaching for arguments sake, which is cool I guess. But yes I do believe that we need to pray and ask God to meet our daily needs. God is my best friend. I am in conversation with Him hourly. On the flip side I also believe that He is 100% sovereign, so if He doesn’t want me to have it, I’m not going to get it.
But to clarify, this post was meant to point out the wrong thinking that many MFI type churches preach…namely that we have to faithfully serve the church in order to receive good things from the Father. This parable shows us that is not true. Everything has already been given to us through Christ’s death and resurrection. There is nothing more to do or earn. It’s all already ours. All we have to do is ask for it.
Ahhhh, you’re never going to get it. And I know you are just trying to get under everyone’s skin and stir it up a bit. And that’s cool if you think you need to be the guy on the other shoulder keeping us in check. But as Cat said, do it with some substance or please don’t do it at all. This blog does not exist for you. You have no idea how many emails I’m getting from people who really like what we have to say and are being impacted by our focus here. Remember, there are too sides to every coin.
JM is one of the many (legion).. need to say GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN… vote him off the island
The Reformer said:
Um, where in my post does it say don’t ask God for anything? I’ve never thought that or preached that. Maybe you’re just reaching for arguments sake, which is cool I guess. But yes I do believe that we need to pray and ask God to meet our daily needs. God is my best friend. I am in conversation with Him hourly. On the flip side I also believe that He is 100% sovereign, so if He doesn’t want me to have it, I’m not going to get it.
ME:
Ok, I agree with that – it’s just not what I saw at Sovereign Grace – I hate to keep picking on them – BUT – from my discussions with reformed friends who have left SG, SG isnt necessarily the best example of the reformed doctrine. So I wasnt addressing your article per se, I guess I was trying to figure you reformed ones out.
At SG, I was taught to accept my lot whatever that may be because who am I but a lowly sinner who deserved God’s wrath. So anything I received this side of His wrath was His grace. We pretty much heard that every Sunday at SG. BSBSBSBSBSBS!!!!
As God’s Child, I reject that false humility crap – it’s not biblical. So yeah, no asking God for anything because you’re a worthless, pathetic sinner who deserves to rot in hell for eternity.
I also agree with your assessment of the MFI churches – Grace is unmerited favor = nothing we do will earn us anything from God.
And Reformer – keep up the good work, this is a great blog.
JAIAM,
BTW, just because the blog moderator’s use names like “Reformed Pope” and “Reformer” doesn’t mean they are Reformed or Calvinistic. I don’t think their name was spawned out of any particular theological camp. I think, (and you guys “RP/R” can correct me if I’m wrong) are trying to look at the theological underpinnings of what is taught in Christendom and challenge it biblically. JAIAM, as soon as you start aligning or pigeon holing people into a particular camp, i.e. “MFI, SGM, calvanism, arminianism, etc..” it’s too easy avoid bible biblical text that teach radical sovereignty and radical human freedom all at the same time!
JM said: Starting to look like a frustrated preacher who wants to do an online church.
Wherever two or more are gathered…….
Good topic, Reformer. I’m also reminded of the parable of the workers in Matthew 20. The workers who started early in the day got paid the same as those who started in the afternoon. Of course the early birds were upset that they didn’t get more than the latecomers. Jesus’ point was that God chooses to give everyone complete Grace regardless of how hard we seem to work for it, and he doesn’t play favorites.
Most Christians have some weird & confusing ideas about the verse…
I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve heard pastors and teachers twist this verse into explaining some really odd behavior and favoritism in the church. In the context of this parable, the real meaning is that God sees everyone equally and no one gets ahead of anyone else in terms of some kind of spiritual pecking order. We all get the same Grace and no one is more deserving than anyone else.
Ok, makes more sense to me now. I visited a SGM church for awhile and they had some good things going. They had a lot of questionable stuff too, that’s why we didn’t stick around.
Exactly. I have no theological alignments. I just serve Jesus. My reformation is not from any particular doctrine but from mainstream American Christianity. I’m tired of seeing people manipulated, lied to, and cheated out of their time and money all in the name of God. I’m just trying to be a voice against corruption.
Amen!
Negrodamus said:
JAIAM, as soon as you start aligning or pigeon holing people into a particular camp, i.e. “MFI, SGM, calvanism, arminianism, etc..†it’s too easy avoid bible biblical text that teach radical sovereignty and radical human freedom all at the same time!
Me:
good point – I’ll take that to heart – I like anything radical! I’ll stop pigeon holing Christians, I personally dont fit ANY box so I’ll have to extend grace here.
Pastor Frank Damazio wrote on his facebook 2 days ago… “If you have any questions you would like to ask me, ask away and I will answer on my blog the ten best questions… starting tomorrow…”
*Will you be discussing current events in relation to current issues and how the relate to God’s word?”
*Japan today in light of bible prophecy!”
“What words of wisdom would give to believers living in Japan?”
*Who gets the gifts of the Holy Spirit and when should they be used.”
*Do pets go to heaven?”
“Loved what u said about everyone having a prophetic assignment. R u sensing a prophetic shift during this season? Any idea what this might look like?”
“Could it be that all that terrible stuff Jesus talked about happening in the gospels was to happen to THAT generation? Could this mean that it has already happened and people have a hopeless future for the planet because they think it’s just going to burn away? Could it be that people are forgetting the Daniel 7, Isiah 60, making disciples of all nations not in all nations, earth becoming more and more like heaven until the end instead of getting worse and worse and then all christians leave, and the fact that Jesus has all authority now and has given us all authority under heaven. it seems if that’s true then the devil has no authority to do anything and the ONLY reason he does have it is because CHRISTIANS have given him their authority simply by no knowing and using the authority they’ve been given over the earth? could it be that we are on the eve of construction? (huh?)
*We don’t come close to trying to obey Sabbath laws. Even the churches that think they teach this strong. This is a big subject. As a start see Lev. 26=5. We would have no debt, no hunger, no welfare??? Do we care about this??? Does it matter??? Is this law been thrown out by Jesus???
“I was asked the question yesterday if I take the Bible literally, and I said, “Yes!”. How would I respond to them if they ask why Christians obey some of the Bible but not all of it? I understand why we no longer practice Old Testament rituals etc… but what about the New Testament? For example, in 1 Timothy 2, it talks about how women should dress and act in the church. I know we do not follow that command. I do not feel convicted at all by not following this instruction. How do I explain to others that some commands we do follow and some we don’t and why???”
“Describe what it is like when you sense God’s presence. Have you ever been afraid in God’s presence?”
“1 John 4:12 says no man has seen God, but Exodus 33:11 says the Lord talked to Moses face to face. How do you reconcile these two biblical statements?”
“Has the Church forgotten the Holiness of God?”
“Where is the balance in church from being seeker friendly (huge movement with Willow Creek) and Spirit sensitive (Gifts of Spirit, Prophecy, etc…)? I think both movements have merit, but how to reconcile both systems?”
“Would you please read Tim Keller on Gospel Centrality and Church Planting?”
Okay, everyone… before Frank Damazio takes a stab at these on his blog, and takes on the task of explaining/answering them… wouldn’t you like an opportunity?
To ask another question, or to answer the ones already asked, NSQ?
Oh, either. I just thought it’d be interesting, since we address many (and are discussing currently many) on here. Those are all questions people asked on facebook. I’m just curious.
Maybe it would be more fun to categorize the questions as:
1) Suckup / Brown-noser
2) Clueless
3) Paranoid
4) Troublemaker
I would be most interested in hearing his answer on this one:
I’m not just interested in his answer though…I would be interested in hearing what most Christians have to say about this.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/City-Bible-Church-PortlandVancouver/185355794841291
I just wonder why he did this. Maybe I’m just jaded, but I tried to think of all the reasons why, and none of them are very kind. You know, “Oh great leader, please share your wisdom with us…” Pfffth!
But since I am so wise myself
, I will take a stab…
*Current events: n/a
*Japan in prophecy: They need the gospel.
*Believers in Japan: Demonstrate the love of God.
*Who gets the gift of the HS: those He gives them to.
When do they use them: when He tells them to.
*Pets in heaven: of course!
*Prophetic shift: Use your clutch; we don’t live on automatic!
What it will look like: “In this world you will have tribulation.”
*Terrible stuff, etc: Jesus said, “All authority has been given to Me.”
*Sabbath laws: Col 2:16 — where were you when doctrine was taught in the church? Oh, yeah. My bad. (sorry, another snarky comment)
*God’s laws: See above.
*God’s presence: See Isaiah 6 and Revelation 1
*Moses and God: Finish reading the chapter before you ask the question
*Church forgot God’s holiness: Probably
*Balance: Neither. I Cor. 2:2
*Tim Keller: I Cor. 2:2
Personally, I think he could stand to read and apply a little Tim Keller.
Erm, I think I’ll leave that to Pat Robertson. Have you seen how much trouble he gets into when he opens his mouth on that kinda stuff? Me? I’m gonna stick to preaching where the money is.
As to the first part of your question, tithers. As to the 2nd part of your question, any time but Sunday morning.
Pets? You mean Pastor’s pets, like Marc and Jack? I’m sure they’ll get there, eventually.
…
You guys are hilarious.
But seriously, it takes a lot of ego to think you’re God’s ultimate answer man, knowing that people are looking up to you as if all your answers are divinely inspired.
That ‘ego’ could also be mixed with a measure of ‘contempt’. Having labored to dumb-down the sheep, it’s no surprise the leader must resort to bottle feeding. But when the babies never grow up, I can imagine that same leader would develop frustration and contempt for the people.
Man, Oregon really turns out some doozies. Remember this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osho_(Bhagwan_Shree_Rajneesh)
Funny photo at the middle of the article – the Bhagwan himself driving by a parade of adoring followers, in one of his Rolls Royces.
Any similarities?