Is there any good in MFI?
Posted on August 11th, 2008 by The Reformer into the Comments From Others categoryA reader recently had this to say:
I left the church and God many years ago, hurt and broken. When I finally came back to God I went back to a church that is part of the MFI organization. I now attend another MFI church out of state. In both of those churches Tithing is encouraged and I do give my 10% every payday…At my church we teach our people to give because we love. Not to get anything. If you don’t want to give, and you can’t give with a grateful heart don’t do it. What you give is between you and God…I give because he gave me everything. I go to church on Sunday because I love it. If I want to take a Sunday off, no problem. My pastor will actually tell you to take a weekend off. A very different philosophy then what I was raised with. I just want to point out….MFI church. Not all of them are bad. Just like not all people at CBC or City Church are bad. I am a mature adult. I have a strong relationship with God. I don’t do anything because someone tells me I have to. Sometime ago I grew up.
I have to agree that there are good churches within MFI and good people within CBC and The City Church. No one denies that. However we can't deny the reality that people are who they associate with. That's just fact. You can't spend a large percentage of your life apart of something and not have it affect you. I hope readers out there can realize the error of this persons thoughts. You cannot be apart of corruption and say that because you are not individually involved in it, that it's OK. That's the excuse used by people who looked the other way in the 40s, 50s and 60s during racists Jim Crow laws. A lot of people did not participate in the evil but they didn't work to stop it or fight against it either. They can claim they were not the bad ones but they still perpetuated the cycle by not acting. So if a church is apart of MFI, they represent the overall philosophy and doctrine of MFI, even if they don't buy into it 100%. That church and it's members are still apart of all the bad that comes with MFI whether they participate in it or not. If a church is really that great they would stand up against MFI and say they don't want to be apart of a corrupt system that's responsible for ruining so many lives. But by partaking in the money, power and support of MFI they are showing that deep down, they are just as bad as everyone else. Sold out to a wrong cause for money. Similarly, if those people at CBC and The City Church were such good people they would say enough of this BS and walk away. But they too stay and partake in the big and powerful because they like the image that it brings. The only real way to bring change to these places and show them that they are wrong is to walk away from them. If MFI only had 3 member churches and CBC only had 100 members, they would be forced to change! But as this comment shows, a lot of people don't have the courage or the faith to say enough is enough, so they rather try to justify their presence there by claiming that they don't participate in the wrongness. That to me, is just wrong.
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August 11th, 2008 at 10:31 am
This isn’t one of those funny posts, but I think it’s an important point to make. I agree, that there are good people in MFI churches, and there are even good pastors within MFI churches. The problem is that those good pastors are still promoting the denominational (yes, I think that word is appropriate) dogma that many of us oppose, specifically tithing. For example, I think Bob MacGregor is one of those rare pastors that really seems to care about people and he’s a great motivator and speaker. However, I would never be comfortable being there on the tithing issue alone, let alone other MFI practices I don’t agree with. Everyone loves and wants to give Bob a pass saying he’s a nice guy, but he’s slated to head MFI when Iverson steps down. It’s doubtful that he will change his mind on these controversial topics, let alone sway the opinion of other MFI leaders who have bought into this system for so long.
There’s one very tired argument that detractors of this blog bring up often: It’s better to stay in a dysfunctional relationship with a church/pastor than it is to leave. I can’t disagree more. It’s one thing to have quibbles over the order of Sunday Service, but it’s another thing altogether to turn a blind eye to bad doctrine and dogma in an attempt at “unity”. If your own personal integrity is of no worth to you, by all means stay and be silent. Otherwise, speak up and if necessary let your feet be your voice.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:59 am
You hit the nail on the head man. Great comment. Bob McGregor is a great example of a guy who has the biggest heart in the world and there is very little negative I can say about him (besides the fact that he tried to split me and my wife up when we were dating in high school, but that’s a different topic). However, because he has widened the boundary box of legalism and preaches a more carefree life people use him as an example of someone who is different from MFI. Yet when you really look at his church I don’t believe he’s gone far enough. He has to shatter that legalism all together. It’s not about living a little more loosely; it’s about living completely free! How I would love for his church to leave MFI. What an impact that would have.
BTW, I too am so sick of the “I have to stay and help bring change” argument. Just like those German soldiers who stayed in the Nazi army helped bring change, right? (extreme example I know, but it’s all I got right now.) Like I said, if these people want to bring change they should leave. Imagine how much change there would be if MFI only had 3 member churches. I’m pretty sure they would look at themselves in the mirror and say “we’ve got to fix ourselves.” But as long as there are churches and people “staying” for the sake of trying not to rock the boat MFI will continue to hound and hurt those in need.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
BTW, I too am so sick of the “I have to stay and help bring change” argument. But as long as there are churches and people “staying” for the sake of trying not to rock the boat MFI will continue to hound and hurt those in need.
I think that excuse for staying is a lie and a cop out. Like Dr. Phil says the only way people keep doing what they are doing is because there is a payoff for them. People are staying in these churches for their own reasons.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Jim Crowe racism and Hitler are the examples used in the post and following comments. Tone down the rhetoric just a little bit here fellas.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Sometimes you have to use an extreme example to emphasize a point. Gets people's attention that way.
The point is, people cannot sit idly by and watch injustice hapen but then say that it's not their fault because they are not the ones causing the injustice. As Loyalty pointed out, its a cop out to avoid looking in the mirror.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Earlier, I was going to write a longer post, because I don’t feel like getting shot at today.
BUT, while an MFI staff member, I never had the feeling that TCC or BT/CBC were churches that I would want to attend. Every MFI church does not actually know what is going on in the other MFI churches, not in their services, management style or staff. As a matter of fact, my pastor was not a Frank fan at all.
I would also say that most pastors do not join MFI because of money or power. Within MFI, most of the pastors have little power or money. I think it is patently unfair to say that all MFI churches are abusing their people or are complicit in the actions of other churches. It is not a denomination. They don’t have a meeting to vote on beliefs or standard operating procedures. Yes, they are a group of like minded folks, but they are not all a group of lemmings marching in lock step. At least not within the group of SP’s that I knew. Iverson does not get to tell anyone how to run their church.
Let’s take your Jim Crow example. The folks in Washington generally had no clue what it was like to live in Mississippi. Washingtonians were Americans but could not reasonably be held responsible for lynchings in Georgia. Once they did know there was only so much that could be done. Should Washington secede from the union? What did happen? Some people brought the issue up where they could, some ignored it, some could not believe it and some went down south to fight the system. Many people on this website are the folks who figuratively lived down South aand are fighting the system. The civil rights movement would not have taken off without the video on the television. People in Connecticut may have known something was not right but did not have a sense of the reality of the segregated South without the video. Some MFI folks live in Connecticut (figuratively speaking). To tell the folks from Connecticut that they are complicit in the actions of those in Alabama is a tough stretch. Everyone is not a crusader. You will be disappointed if you expect everyone to be.
BTW, I no longer attend an MFI church. What is amazing to one of my best friends and I who are no longer in that circle is the striving that goes on. A bunch of us all went out to eat. We are all either current or former youth and/or college pastors. My friend and I walked out saying that some of those folks are under way too much stress for doing God’s work.
I understand where you are coming from but I don’t think it is particularly helpful to shoot at anyone who is happy at their MFI church.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Should be everyone, not anyone, in that last paragraph.
August 11th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
As the original poster of the above comment I appreciate Fred’s comment. As somebody who grew up at CBC I never considered going back there. I don’t agree with a lot of things that go on at CBC or TCC. I don’t go to events they sponsor. I do go to a church that whose pastor is a member of MFI. I disagree with your definition of MFI. Technically there is no such thing as an “MFI church”. MFI is an organization of pastors. It is not a denomination. MFI does not dictate doctrine for the individual churches involved. The pastors involved dont tell each other how to run their churches. They are independent non denominational churches. They may have the same basic belief system Father, Son, Holy Spirit. But there are many different Philosophies regarding a lot of things. Tithe, End Times, or “Can a Christian be possessed by the devil?” I use these examples because I know of different Pastors with different opinions who are all a part of MFI. So I cant say I appreciate the accusation that I am a part of abuse happening in another church or turning a blind eye to someone’s pain or deserve to be compared to Nazi’s or people who were a part of the Jim Crow laws. I personally found a church that I do agree with and I enjoy being a part of.
August 12th, 2008 at 6:49 am
Fred, I appreciate your viewpoint, but I don’t think you are seeing the whole picture of MFI. Yes, it is a coalition of pastors and not churches. But that’s exactly the trouble. MFI works independently from churches and church members and actually exerts control over churches via pastors. As we saw play out in Gray’s Harbor (do a search here for posts about it), MFI can supercede the elders and members of a church by promoting a pastor that the church had to forcibly remove for bad behavior. (Which is completely counter to what they state on their web site.) Their system actively encourages and promotes a church model whereby the pastors are kings with absolute authority. If that doesn’t bother you, I’ve got some Kool-Aid for you - it only costs $1000 a cup. Join today!
I just made a long comment in another post about personal culpability for MFI church members, so I won’t repeat myself. But my personal opinion is that participating in a church with an MFI pastor condones and actively promotes the behavior (both good and bad) of other MFI pastors. Even if you don’t agree, this about this: If your pastor is turning a blind eye towards the bad behavior or faulty doctrine of other pastors he has sworn to uphold in Christian fellowship (they use the word “covenant”), what does that say about your pastor?
August 12th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Loyalty vs. Truth said
You are right here on some level. Although we truly believed at the time that it was the Lord’s longsuffering and patient grace that was at the heart of why we stayed in our MFI church as long as we did (not just us, but many others who were aware of certain weaknesses in the leadership there). Your statement seems to minimizes how hard it is to leave a church you’ve given your life to. It’s easier for us to say now that people should get off the ship they are in, but it’s not an easy undertaking. Nevertheless, it needs to happen if these people want true freedom in Christ.
Before we left, we had decided to give it one last shot by accepting a leadership position (we were already leaders but were given a rung up), we thought it was for the reason of hopefully bringing change through having more of a voice. Many of us were aware there needed to be change in certain areas. We hadn’t quite figured out until we took that position that we leaders really only had a voice if it lined up with what the senior pastor couple wanted. It was also confirmed to us that there were no real safeguards or a checks and balance system in place to protect the CEOs from themselves. These are things only those closer in can see.
It’s pretty horrifying to be privy to the truth about someone you believed to be someone completely different. When there is fear, you don’t move quickly, rather you are petrafied into stillness until, like Dr. Phil also says, the pain of where you are is greater than the pain of leaving (or something like that).
Underneath all that we probably did have motives we were slow to admit to: we had been the Next-in-Line after the leaders before us left and we wanted to at least give it a shot and have our time in the sun. I could say alot more on that but let’s just say it’s amazing what the Lord allows us to endure to reveal to us our true hearts.
One thing though, we will always know that we at least tried somewhat. But even that makes us shake our heads because in hindsight we could have said alot more and then left sooner. Intimidation is huge there and it was never easy to speak unless you were spoken to. That particular church is extremely authoritarian.
August 12th, 2008 at 8:50 am
This is not a personal attack. I’m sorry if you took it that way. This post is to point out the line of thinking that I believe is wrong. You may completely disagree to which I have no problem. Mature adults can debate. But I think that just because a person is not the cause of the pain does not mean it’s OK to have membership in something that is. It’s called “group think,” where members avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking and choose to put the fault on the organization rather then the individual. I personally could have no part with an organization that is guilty of such wrongdoing. But if it does not bother you in the same way then by all means keep doing what you are doing. I’m just trying to point it out.
This is the point.
Another great example of the problem. You either by into something like MFI or you don’t. There’s no checks and balances, no room to disagree. It’s their way or the highway. Only those who have been behind the scenes have really experienced this first hand.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:58 am
This is not universally true.
I am truly sorry for some of the issues many of you have had to live through. I could tell a few stories myself. I don’t regret my time with the 2 MFI related churches I have attended. I do wish that I would have moved on a few years earlier than I did, though. Our church was/is a good church. For me, it was no longer a great place for me to work. My opinion was listened to but often not considered. I came up with a saying in those days, “I might be wrong, but I’m not crazy”. This alluded to the fact that my answer to a problem might not have been the right or best one but there was an issue to be faced.
I grew up in a military family, married a woman from another Christian tradition than my own and have many friends and colleagues both past and present that work in or are part of other church traditions. I have seen inside problems in all different types of churches. Even the church in Acts and the entire NT is messed up. Our churches now are no different. I have just made peace that all men are sinners and sinners will sin whether pastors, church leaders or winos. Does that mean I excuse behavior? No. It does not mean I have to all together condemn them either.
I am highly influenced by “Tale of 3 Kings” by Gene Edwards. One of the points in the book is that when you leave, just leave. Don’t try to drag others along with you. In the end, others who desire to go will find you. This is based on David running from Saul rather than staying. I left a church that was truly dysfunctional at the time I left it back in 1995. A baptist church, not MFI related. The church had given me a heart for ministry and an opportunity to serve. 2 of my best friends, who I recruited from across country to attend this church stayed. One of them helped right the ship and the other got caught up in the mess. Neither of them are in that church but both are better believers from their experience. People actually came to know Christ and grew in the Lord during a crazy time in that church’s history. Was it healthy, not in my mind. Was there any good there? Yes.
I am trying to answer the question: is there anything good in MFI? At the point you say, “No way” is the point you are almost saying they are not Christian. At times, I take the Matthew 9:38-41, “If they are not against us, they are for us” approach. Reformer: you are a crusader which is OK. Realize that everyone is not a crusader and does not need to be. I think you saying that because there are some serious issues the bad far out weighs the good. This may be true or may not be true, but that does not mean that there is no good at all.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Point well taken. I always appriciate the opinion that you bring.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Detox Church Group said: Your statement seems to minimizes how hard it is to leave a church you’ve given your life to.
You’re right Detox. Please forgive me. What I said does minimize how hard it is for those that are agonizing over a decision like that.
But for those that are staying because they love it, are a mature adult, have a strong relationship with God, don’t do anything just because someone tells them to and sometime ago grew up……….that is minimizing also for those of us that have gone through experiences like you and the majority of us here.
They will never get it until it happens to them and don’t care enough to even consider that things like that might be happening to others around them. Even when you tell them they still won’t listen. That is what is happening here. It’s like being in a family where the father is molesting one of his three daughters and just because it isn’t happening to them, the other two won’t believe it when she goes to them for help.
The leadership would not be able to continue in this abusive behavior if there was true community in the body of Christ like they keep advertising in their churches. Most of this stuff occurs behind closed doors and it is not going to change until people start caring about the one sitting next to them in the pew instead of pledging some kind of blind loyalty to the leadership.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
No offence taken. I appreciate the clarification, it did seem rather pointed. You make a strong argument, albeit a little harsh.
August 13th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
“Sometimes you have to use an extreme example to emphasize a point. Gets people’s attention that way.”
OH REALLY. I’ve visited this board on and off and when someone else does the exact same thing, they get a comment like “Dont use extreme examples, it makes you sound uneducated” and their thoughts are dismissed. Interesting.