Here at City Business we have a a lot of ex-PBCer's, and regardless of your thoughts on the place, I don't think anyone can deny that PBC has created a lot of controversy over the years. It is a very polarizing place. On one side you have zealots who say PBC is the best place to learn the Bible and on the other side you have those who hate the place for ruining their lives. A regular poster recently had this to say:
"I attended PBC wanting to get a basic understanding of theology, religion and the bible. I wanted it to be a foundation for the rest of my life. I’m a bit pissed off towards those who told me PBC was a good place to be for that. That is a lie! After entering PBC, I found out that it was the opposite. PBC is more like an internship for those who want to be full-time pastors/leaders at MFI type of churches…If I knew this was the case, I would have only taken a couple of classes. I feel that I wasted my time there. I went there out of zeal and because I was encouraged to pursue my “calling.” Now I regret going there."
I personally never went to PBC. They tried to push me that direction, but thankfully God spared me from that life lesson. My wife on the other hand was one of those who was duped into attending. She grew up at City Bible and it was always assumed that she would go. So after transferring from her public school to attend City Christian, she went to PBC straight out of high school (which she claims were two of the biggest mistakes of her life). After one semester of crying almost everyday she got out. She says that her few months there were some of the worst times in her life. She felt trapped and lied to. There was nothing educational about it. And to make matters worse, when she transferred to a real college, they wouldn't accept any of her PBC credits.
To me PBC is simply a place to indoctrinate young, impressionable minds into the MFI, works-based, legalistic, way of thinking. It perpetuates a false gospel. And I find it sad that so many 20 somethings who are suppose to be in the freest time of their lives (before full-time jobs, marriage and kids) are completely wrapped up in something that will add very little benefit to their futures.
What to you former and even current PBCer's think?
Doug Lasit told me (and two of my friends) specifically to NOT go to PBC. That was one of only two good pieces of advice I received from a pastor at CBC.
The other was that I had to make my own decisions and not wait for someone to tell me what to do because that is part of growing up/becoming an adult. And that was after I was crying and saying, “I just want someone to tell me what to do…”. Looking back, I realize how lucky I was that he and his wife didn’t take advantage of that moment to get me under someone’s “wing” and at their every beck and call.
Those two pieces of “advice” changed my life…for the better.
You’ve just improved my opinion of Doug. Nice to see he’s not a complete City Bible clone.
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Agreed, nice to here something positive that Dougie did.
It is a mystery to me….because at the same time he was pushing PBC from the pulpit like, every Wednesday night. I suppose that can be chalked up to pressure from higher ups.
As a youth pastor, we sent some kids there. Only one of them finished and none of them ever liked CBC. They all went to other churches as much as they could get away with. I didn’t exactly get it at the time, but I do now.
In hindsight, I would have told the students to suck it up and spend the money to go to Northwest/George Fox/Multnomah/etc, if they wanted a Christian education.
Good post, Reformer. I’m so sorry to hear about your wife’s awful experience at PBC. There sure are many things to cry about there.
I went to PBC for two years. I did so after I had already gone to university (secular! I know, scandalous) and earned a four-year degree. So, because I had that under my belt, and because I was 22 instead of 18, I was not the typical PBC student. I did feel called to go, and I can’t say I regret it, only because I can look back and see how God has directed me every step of my life, and going to PBC got me to move to Portland (where I still live, many years later) and also positioned me for many other major life events (husband, ministry, career, etc.). However, it was not an academic place. Not even close. Nor was it a particularly spiritually enriching place. The emphasis was on legalism, not salvation by grace through faith; on rote memorization, not analytical thinking; on image, not substance; on behavior, not heart; on indoctrination, not authentic belief. I could say more, but you get it.
Some of my PBC “highlights:”
1. Making out with my boyfriend in the classroom building, at night, way after curfew.
2. Some friends & I being told, by Dick Iverson & Bob Wager, that if we worked at Octoberfest (for tuition money), we would all be expelled.
3. Being forbidden to talk with one particular guy for 30 days(? 60 days? I forget how long), because we talked for more than 30 minutes one day. Then, when our “grounding” ended, we thought we were in love because, well, we all want what we can’t have. Once the “forbidden” feel of it wore off (see #1, above) that was that. We both moved on.
4. Having one of my closest girlfriends (who was raised in MFI) ask me to help her learn how to talk to a non-Christian about her faith (it was one of her New Year’s resolutions when she was about 25; she hadn’t ever done it before).
5. Realizing that I knew WHY I believed what I believed, because of the “trial by fire,” if you will, of secular university, whereas my PBC friends who were raised in MFI churches only knew WHAT they believed.
I’ve since gotten graduate degrees, etc. PBC was a () in my education, and really, in my life. It’s not on any resume and I never mention it to anyone in my professional life, because it’s completely irrelevant. I have a great job in the educational field, serve as a leader in a wonderful niche and believe the Lord has called me to it, to be salt and light. Anyway, like I said, I don’t regret it, but only because it’s led to other, better things, and because God uses everything!!
Obviously not everyone is able to follow rules or stand up to pressure. These are the same that won’t make it very far in life – they will cry, complain, moan, but will be good at a career as a corner barista.
Hi guys, I haven’t checked in for awhile. I taught at PBC for 18 years so know a bit about it. The key idea in higher education is “accreditation,” and PBC has always been clear that it is not accredited. The means that PBC is a “college” that offers “courses” that award “credits” that might accumulate into a “degree.” However, in an unaccredited environment, none of those terms really mean anything. PBC is what it is – the ministry training department of City Bible Church. If you want an education you need to go to an accredited institution.
Larry, good to hear from you. I have sat down in some your classes. But I’m still disguising my name under a pseudonym. I should have paid more attention to the fact that PBC wasnt accredited.
I wish that was clearly communicated to me earlier. When I was right out of high school and checking my options that wasn’t the case. I was pushed to that direction when that wasn’t my “calling”. Growing up I was very confused about calling. I sometimes blame myself for not questioning and deciding for myself. But I was 17, young, a bit naive and impressionable. It’s partially my decision and consequences.
At the same time I feel as though theres were miscommunications. I think I didn’t talk to the right person. I did know that PBC was unaccredited but there were somethings that werent clear. On top of it, I was constantly told that other accredited Bible schools dont teach the Bible well and if I studied other doctrines I’d be confused.
While checking out PBC, I asked about the accreditation status. I was told that some colleges in Oregon accept some of the PBC credits. That surprised me but thought if colleges take it, why not? Two different leaders have told me that PBC is not only for those into full time ministry but also for those who want to go into the “secular” world because they want to develop leaders for the secular environments as well. I was also told that there are people who get accepted into law school with a 4 year theology degree.
That is very different from saying the purpose is a ministerial training wing of PBC. If someone told me that earlier, I would have had the right info to make my choice.
Pony, great stuff. My wife has so many similar stories, and she was only there a few months. We were dating while she was in attendance so you can image the kind of scrutiny she was under. One time I sent her flowers and she got called into Beth’s office for “cultivating” a relationship (they loved that word). Another time the president of the student body saw us driving alone in a car. She got a firm warning never to do that again. All they wanted to do was control. Only a select few actually taught anything.
There’s always one isn’t there. Just so you know my wife went on to real college and studied in a very specific medical field and now specializes in a very high demand career in Los Angeles. Just because she didn’t want to be brainwashed into believing that the only career path for her was working for CBC (which they tried to do) doesn’t mean she ended up as a corner barista. What a naive thing to say.
Hey Larry, great to see you blogging. My wife has always said you were one of the good ones and we were friends with your son for a time. Spent some of my teenage years hanging around your place. Thanks for the input.
Reformer, I hear you. I’m cracking up over the “cultivating” word because I remember their love for that word, too. The Molts were the “dorm parents” during my PBC stint. To their credit, when we ran into each other a few years ago, they apologized profusely for the way they acted “back then.”
JustaDog, I doubt it’s worth addressing your comments, but I can’t resist. If you think that there is “presure” at PBC, then clearly you need to get out more. The “pressure” and “rules” are trumped-up, not the real stuff of life. Living out life in a world in need of Jesus, not sequestered in la-la-land, is true pressure, but it’s also true joy because it’s authentic, not pretend. Just for the record, I’ve never been a barista, and the lowest paying job I’ve ever had in my life was when I worked for CBC. I have advanced degrees and have a serious career with intense pressures. God has carved out a unique professional niche for me (I’m actually the only person who does what I do in Oregon), full of (sometimes overwhelming) responsibility as well as amazing opportunities for influence in children, adults and systems. The ability to be salt and light, and influence my tiny corner of the world, makes it worth dealing with the pressures. Anyway.
Larry, I, too, am glad to hear from you. I always appreciated and respected your brain and your wit. I hope you’re enjoying life in Georgia! I hear you, that PBC is the ministry training arm of CBC/MFI. It is what it is. Unfortunately (unless things have changed), PBC doesn’t market itself that way or make that explicit. Many of the fresh-out-of-high-school youth don’t even know what “accreditation” means or know that their classes at PBC will not “count” toward a real degree somewhere else. PBC’s use of the terms “Associate” and “Bachelor” (which I still on their website) is exceedingly misleading. The implication is that those are degrees, but they really only “count” within the MFI arena, not anywhere else.
My experience with PBC was, in the main, a positive one. I attended for four years, during the course of which I took some excellent classes, some mediocre ones, and some that were very subpar. On the whole, I would say my classroom experience was average-to-good. I was dismayed during the last couple of years, however, at how little the incoming freshmen actually engaged the ideas being presented to them in class.
I grew at PBC in a lot of ways. I was stimulated to think doctrinally for the first time in my life, and didn’t find the social rules all that difficult to follow (although admittedly, I am not usually one to push the envelope). I made a lot of great friends, my love for Jesus deepened a hundred times over, and I began to see the necessity of being rooted in the local church.
Life post-PBC has been frustrating: I was recently denied admission to a Christian graduate school on the grounds that my degree was not accredited. Another school agreed to accept me, but only on a “no-B.A.” basis. In my case, however, I know that Jesus wanted me at PBC for the four years that I attended (I tried to leave and He wouldn’t let me), so I’m not complaining.
I went to PBC for 4 yrs and I think the period of time in which one went makes a huge difference. When I was there, PBC was seeking accredidation and degree granting status. The legalistic regime of the former dorm parents who I was under for a year changed a lot with the new dorm parents. Oh, they followed the rules very closely still, but in a totally different spirit. They thought it was genuinely funny when a tree was found in the morning draped with toilet paper and men’s underwear. I think a lot of us at that time realized that since it was a strict church community that we had to put up with certain rules that all of us may not have abided by in “real life”. It seemed the dorm parents realized that as well.
It was not about status and looks. Heck the dorms hadn’t even been remodeled when I arrived for my freshman year. There was spiritual dialouge galore and students having spontaneous prayer meetings all the time.
Were things perfect? No. They never come close when you have that many people living together. There were some things that happened that shouldn’t have. But overall, it was a great experience. Yes, I was expected to believe certain doctrines that I no longer agree with, but the tools I was equipped with for studying the Bible and the overall understanding of the Bible and it’s themes (not quite so legalistic back then) have given me a great foundation to branch out and to study things on my own and to stand on a firm foundation in my disagreeing with certain popular beliefs.
For me, PBC was a great experience. And I did find that another undergrad college that I attended for a semester accepted many of my credits. They took Old Testament survey as a “social studies/history” class for example.
I received my 4 year degree at PBC and my credits were received to be enrolled in a masters program through another school.
While I can’t say I loved all of my experiences there (Aside from Dwight K. Schrute I’ve never seen less authority go to someone’s heads quicker than a dorm leader) I can say that if you are interested in going into full time ministry it’s a great option for you.
I received an above average education compared to my friends who went to more prestigious (read: expensive) Bible Colleges or Universities.
One thing I can say with confidence is that I certainly enjoy being able to go to the bathroom between the times of 10:30 – 11pm now
I attended PBC for two years and I have to say that, all things considered, I’m glad I went.
I recall some bad things. I didn’t get along with my first roommate and when we finally had a shouting match I was turned in and called into Beth’s office and accused of physically and emotionally abusing her. I never touched her and we rarely talked. I also had my skirt measured. It was half an inch too short. But I also recall a lot of good things. I learned a lot about the Bible. I made some of the best friends I’ve ever had and I grew up quite a bit.
All in all I’d say that it’s a good place to be if you’re supposed to be there. If you aren’t or you don’t like the astounding plethora of rules they manage to impose upon the student body, don’t go.
Wow, looks like we do have some Portland Bible College fans. That's good to hear. I wasn't sure there was anybody who enjoyed their PBC experience. Thanks for sharing people.
I must point out though that if it was as simple as "just don't go" then we would not be having all of these people coming out messed up in the head. The reality is that not all 18/19 year old kids can grasp the concept of just don't go. There has to be more then that. PBC has to make it a point that they are not accredited, that they are a school specifically designed to help those who want to work in full-time ministry only (where degrees are not required), and that the purpose of their rules and regulations is to prepare them to be disciplined leaders, not better Christians. If that were to happen I think PBC would become a better place.
It should also be noted that the school has changed directions in the decade or so that Frank Damazio has been in charge. They are firing a lot of the more qualified staff, and leaving the teaching to less educated elders. It’s gone from a decent Bible College to more of an internship program.
I didn’t get it then (when they first claimed accrediation and credit transfer and all that) and I still don’t get it now that people believed it would be a reality. Does this mean people who went to PBC and believed it are not able to think for themselves and actually research and find this out on their own? Use a bit of critical thinking? Or even just plain common sense?
To be honest, PBC has never claimed accreditation and has always had a credit transfer “warning” in the catalog. I chaired the committee that researched the possibility of accreditation and was very aware of those factors – people just didn’t read carefully enough.
For those who had a great experience at PBC, I’m very glad for them. If God is using you for his glory and good things are happening, I’d be happy to hear that. I want to see my friends and other believers doing well.
To Reformer, I 100% agree with you. PBC needs to be clear about that. I browsed through the webpage and frankly it is very misleading. While I applied to PBC, I clearly discussed in my application that I am not interested in full time ministry but I’m rather interested in a biblical foundation etc… I would have had absolutely no problem if I was told that PBC was not for it and denied admission.
Think of it this way….suppose a person wants to study civil engineering. And there’s a college well known for sciences and engineering. While checking out that college, its basically myself deciding if the college is for me and the college deciding if I can be admitted, right.
Suppose if that college offers engineering/sciences but not civil engineering, it would make no sense if they admitted me, enrolled me in classes and not communicate to me that they are not focused on civil engineering. It doesnt matter how good their other engineering or science education is or whether other students love it there. The bottomline is if they dont offer my particular program and cannot fit into my calling and career goals, it is NOT for me.
I know this is not the best way to describe it but that is essentially what PBC is doing. Yes, there are friends who graduated and doing well and I saw that God is using them for full time ministry. However not everyone is called into full-time ministry for an MFI church. Not everyone can be pastors. A person using their spiritual gifts and talents in the secular field is just as called and spiritually gifted as someone who is a bible teacher, preacher, healer in the church.
This post is not about PBC bashing or about closing that place down. All I’m saying is that PBC should be clear about their goals and it should be communicated better.
To other PBC students, I’m glad you shared your PBC experiences. I like hearing your perspective. This is not to argue or dismiss your positive PBC experience. That doesnt mean everyone has to experience PBC (or any spiritual thing) the way you did. Since we’re discussing personal experiences here’s mine.
While I was in PBC, I turned away from Christ. However, I knew how to hide it well because I knew people would act stupid about that. When I turned away and denied Christ’s existence, I was further repelled by the hypocrisy, behavior and attitudes of others – including pastors, teachers, leaders, student leaders and others.
I was told that PBC focused on character growth rather than charisma. I thought that was BS! I saw dishonesty, snottiness, arrogance, rudeness and attitudes that were certainly the opposite of Christ. When I looked around those who I’m supposed to model myself after, I thought “HELL NO, I dont want to be like them as a mature believer.” I thought if this is what being a believer is about, I didnt want anything to do with it.
I found Christ again later in another Christian-based university. I heard another person at PBC comment about their incompetent theology classes and the alike. I had to take one mandatory class and that opened my eyes because there were discussions from believers of different denominations, non-believers and others. That made me want to know where I stand.
Later, one of the professors lecture made me think of Christ during a in an English class. We were discussing the concept of grace and love throughout literature. This professor really pushed everyone to talk in class.
Gradually, I went from apathy/disgust from Christianity to a seeker. I wonderered, what if I missed something about my understanding of Christ? I wanted truth beyond superficialities. I went into that college chapel which is very lithurgical and something PBCers would look down on. Guess what, I totally felt the presence of God and heard his voice calling me back to him. The next week, almost out of no where I ended up having a discussion about faith with a methodist. He led me back to Christ. I re-dedicated myself back to Christ. I am now a much firmer and stronger believer.
Generally, some CBC’ers like to associate religious christianity with the denominations like Baptist, methodist (and others out there). However, CBC or charismatic non-denominational churches can be just as religious and actually have the same tendencies as a traditional denomination.
When I was 19, I took a break from the University to attend PBC for a year. I grew up in an MFI church and was wounded deeply there. But my experience at PBC was a good one. I knew it wasn’t accredited. I knew I was only going to be there for one year so I only took classes that interested me. My teachers were Larry Aspland, Lanny Hubbard, Jan Weinstein, Tim Smith, and Mark Bryan. They were great and I learned a lot about the Bible. Sure, the rules were ridiculous, but they didn’t bother me. Mostly, they were just an inconvenience. My parents were University professors, I finished my degree at the University so I’ve spent my life in an intellectual atmosphere. I think the teaching I received at PBC was very intellectual and increased my ability to study the Bible and also to discuss controversial topics related to Christianity. I spent hours discussing issues with some of the upperclassman. Obviously my experience was different from many of you. Maybe I was just oblivious to what was really going on?? I was there right when Frank was taking over. Perhaps that was a good time. I did notice a huge amount of favoritism towards MFI pastors’ kids who were there with me…that kinda bugged me. But it wasn’t in the classes as much in the chapels and other stuff.
Great point. I love how non-denominational churches look down on Baptist or Presbyterian denominations, yet places like CBC can be 10 times more religious because they take everything in the Bible as is. At least Presbyterians and Baptists understand the context of scripture and the audience of the reader at the time it was written.
Besides the concept of literal interpretation, I’ve seen spirituality measured by outward appearances and in superficial ways. In charismatic, non-denominational circles, it is very easy to appear spiritual by conforming to a set of man-made ideas, charismatic lingo and things you do. Some people judge spirituality by a combination of feelings, hype and emotions or by superficial standards rather than true discernment. I’ve met true believers with the love of Christ in all denominations from charismatic, baptist, lutheran, reformed Catholic and others.
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Contributing to this blog site again is not something I had in mind, not because I don’t appreciate its purpose, but because I thought I was safely removed from the legacy of PBC. Unfortunately, I was wandering around the web tonight, looking for some interesting news. After a few boring moments with the somewhat encouraging messages coming from the podium of the Democratic Convention, I clicked on the City Business Blog and saw “PBC†in the center of controversy in recent blogesphere. Like a fly on watermelon (or something else), here I am, again.
Larry Asplund, my good friend and colleague of 13 years; you know that I have always had strong and consistent feelings toward the development of PBC and the need for accreditation. My good friend, Ken Ross, and I labored toward this end from the time I set foot on PBC soil. John Adams knows this is true, as well as many other former PBC students. But, at the end of 13 years of mixed blessings and painful years, two of us were shown the door because of our insistence that PBC should move forward toward full accreditation and assume the place it deserved as a Christian charismatic institution dedicated to the furtherance of the Kingdom of God through well-educated and well-equipped ministers of the Gospel.
But, let us not forget the reality that the portrayal of PBC was always (during the years I served) softening the absence and/or need of accreditation and the accessibility of further educational benefits. Ken Malmin spent several chapels, appealing to the hearts of the students and staff to believe that the State of Oregon had the moral obligation of granting immunity to PBC by not requiring them to be accredited in order to offer a “degree.†The church was never shy about wielding its political might. Meanwhile, students were told that coming to PBC would not hurt their chances to pursue a standard (accredited?) educational degree experience, while stating that PBC was offering them a Christian foundation. This was absolutely taught…because that is why I was asked to come to Portland and teach the philosophy and cultural studies courses – and YOU know it.
What became a shock to me, and some of the students that have attended PBC, is that this goal of accreditation and standardization was never an honest option for Frank, Ken, and some of the other top leaders at City Bible. They were too enamored and contained by their doctrine of the church, and too caught up in the web of Triumphalism to understand the benefits and blessings of interaction with various denominational organizations and the value of intellectual deference. No, Dr. Asplund; you and I know the truth: that real education requires not only discipline, but the risk of openness. And, I suspect that you have improved your quadrant of intellectual stimulation, and honest exploration into areas of the improbable. In fact, you could probably write two books easily: one on the theology of “Pastor Gas,” and the other on the “Soteriology of Monty Python’s Search for the Holy Grail.”
Time to stop defending your old familiar comfort zones.
Regardless, I hope you are doing well – very well – and I hope Lynda is continually being strengthened and healed in Christ. I miss your jokes and your gift for sacrilegious sarcasm.
LT
Larry Taylor!!! I’m glad to hear from you. I used to be a student of yours. Anyway, I wanted to talk to you. If you’d like please email me at almond_roca@hotmail.com
BTW…in case you’re wondering “Who the heck is Nina?” I’ll tell u thats its a pseudonym. Talk to ya soon.
Wow, Larry this is just excellent. Thank you for sharing. I never really knew you but I was apart of the Eric Knox/Dan Hammond – Urban Progress crew. It is great to see people from all former walks of CBC life sharing on here. And keep challenging that “familiar comfort zone” way of thinking. That’s how change happens.
It’s good to hear from you, Dr. Taylor. We worked hard to make it happen, didn’t we. I think PBC would have made a wonderful, fully accredited institution of higher education. As you know, several things would have had to change: it would have been forced to separate from CBC (thus your reference to their view of the church), and some of the foundational instructors (including Ken and Glenda) would have had to stop teaching. In the end, PBC was redefined in a way that precluded it ever being an institution of higher learning. As a result, you and our good buddy Dr. Ross were fired and I moved to Georgia to teach. Although there was always the possibility that PBC might be accredited, there is now no chance of that every happening. Oh well. Be blessed, my old friend.
On the other side PBC may not have been a bad idea. Forget beauty school or appearing on “What not to wear”– I learned how to dress, do my hair and makeup etc… Before I walked in I was just a jeans/tshirt casual girl. I wore my first pair of stiletto heels only when I was in PBC. Now I look so damn good. I’m sure my boyfriend appreciates that
Guys are not excluded either. I have never seen so many metros in one place.
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Sorry, “Nina.” I could not track you by your email address. perhaps email me directly, if you still want a reply: larrytaylor007@comcast.net
I’m not too concerned about my own identity. LT
How’s it going LT? Ya know I asked a pastor about you who so happens to be a former student of PBC, and surprisingly enough was formerly a friend of yours. I’m not sure of your relationship now, but I do know that this said person was quite a fan of yours at the time of his attendance of PBC. I also was a student during his time there and I was/am a fan of your teaching style and your desire to be real and open. When I asked of you and Ken, his response was simply “we had to let them go becuase they just weren’t local church guys”. I wasn’t too sure how to take that, but after reading some of the previous entries it’s more clear to me now. I actually attended a couple of lunches with you and Ken and a couple of other guys from PBC. Anyway, I hope you’re doing good and Ken and Larry Asplund too.
Hi Larry,
Good to hear from you. Say “Hi” to Chuck Travis, when you see him. Also, to Lynda. Hope all is well, and you are not suffering from Hurricane season. All is well in the Northwest. I spoke with Dr. Ross recently, and he and Karen seem well. I will be doing my final preparatory work in Seattle for one year as a drug and alcohol and mental health counselor/chaplain, and will then be employed with the VA ‘somewhere.’ We want to stay in the NW, but have to be realistic in terms of job placement. I am at the ‘top of the heap’ in terms of getting a job, due to my combat, service connected disabilities, education, etc. Good pay, too. I might even be making as much as Ken Malmin? Wow.
Blessings, my friend.
LT
Wow,
My favorite people are here.
Hello Dr. Taylor, Dr. Asplund and still waiting for Dr. Ross to join this blog.
We miss you and miss your wisdom so much.
Indy.
I know of two girls that just graduated from High School here and are leaving to go to the intern program at Wendall Smiths Church. What does the intern program entail? Do they have a “Bible College” there like Portland City Church? Is their intern program and their bible college one in the same or two separate things?
I know of a lot of kids that are being talked into going there thinking that they are furthering their education but after hearing from others here it makes me sick to think of them wasting those important years right out of High School. What could I say to a young person that was thinking about going to something like this so that they might stop and take another look before jumping ahead?
Their parents are paying a lot of money for this and I wonder if they are aware that the credits they will be earning aren’t really credits at all.
“Internships” can be very valuable as a “gap year” experience. They should not be looked at as formal education but rather a one-year post-high school experience (like traveling around in Europe).
The exception might be for a young person whose goal is to serve in ministry and/or leadership in a local church. If so, some (even informal) training like that offered in an internship program can be meaningful. However, they will need to start their formal education afterward – nothing they have done in the internship will be “transferable” to their formal education.
It’s my understanding (remember, I’ve been gone from Portland for over two years) that City Church in Seattle, which has long had an informal internship program now has an extension campus of PBC. While that adds to the academic value of the teaching portion of the internship, it still does not constitute “formal education.”
This is just sad. Poor kids. Been there, done that. Hey I got an idea…show them this blog. Tell them that if that is the route they want to go, then they will probably be posting some “look what the City Church did to me” story on this site in about 2 years.
Far be it from me to align myself with City Church but I have to say that to my knowledge I’ve never heard them imply that their internship was an academic experience. I’ve had several friends go through it and it seemed more about on the job training than anything else. I believe the goal is to crank out more MFI workers. Though, I know of at least one university in the are that will accept “credits” from their internship. I don’t think they advertise it as a college experience though.
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TRUE, but they were so close and the Frank shut it down. I guess building an Empire was more important.
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TRUE, but they were so close and the Frank shut it down. I guess building an Empire was more important.[Comment ID #34538 Will Be Quoted Here]
Good to hear from you Larry, hope you are doing well.
Oh my goodness Larry Taylor! I pursued a degree ( a real accredited degree!) in philosophy because of your classes. Although my time at PBC is ten years behind me, you and Larry Aspland inspired me. Thank you so much! This post is so old…who knows if you will even read this….
Tara
Sounds kind of harsh. If I went to a Bible College I personally would want to go somewhere I was actually going to get trained to do ministry and deal with people, and I wouldn't want to go to a place that just tought me a list of theories and doctrines that don't apply to real life. Sounds like PBC offers real life, hands on training in the ministry. If you don't care about people and lost souls then don't go, but you don't have to make a website creating divisiveness…
[Comment ID #34429 Will Be Quoted Here] If you dont mind me asking where did you trabsfer your credits towards a masters degree? I have been looking.
As a previous PBC student, I can honestly say I wish… I had those years back. So much heartache, disappointment, disillusionment, and worthlessness. Yes, I took some classes that really did impact my life and I have a few favorite teachers (who are no longer there), but I could have used my skills, time, resources, and life for God in better ways had I gone to the college of my dreams (can’t mention here) than followed the advice of my pastors. My parents were supportive and encouraging no matter where I chose to go to college. I honestly am very blessed by them. I didn’t take my SAT with the express knowledge I wouldn’t need it for PBC. Where does that leave me now? I’m unable to attend that college of my dreams. I know it sounds crazy, but I looked into it. After giving hours and hours and hours and LOTS of money to the college/church because that was what you were supposed to do to earn their attention, I graduated and now, if I try to contact that pastor/leader, I get… nothing. No response. Zippo. Nada. It’s like that accountability factor is gone since I’m no longer a part of the tithing, tuition-paying, time-wasting intern who was easy to take advantage of. I’m trying not to be bitter, but I honestly feel like I wasted years of my life there. The friendships I made were so superficial, even though I loved and poured into those friendships as much or more than I have with any other. It was exhausting, rewarding at the time, but such a let-down afterwards. As soon as I get the opportunity, I need to find a solid church that will counsel, guide, and teach me the things I’ve lacked or help me heal from the things I’ve begun to resent. My family still attends, but I have severed ties, except where there are friendships (and I know those particular ones will last through good AND bad). Anyone have any suggestions for a good church, somewhere in the states Washington, Oregon, or California? I’m desperate. I’ve lost all motivation to attend, all desire to grow, and just feel dry, disappointed, near tears all the time, and empty. I feel like a terrible Christian because I don’t worship my pastor. I don’t know how much I actually believe or what, anymore. I’m terrified of “falling away” because of the implications and consequences, but I’m afraid I’ve just known it all my life, that anything new or unfamiliar or RIGHT scares me. I’m willing to try, though. My emotions and relationship with the Lord is really messed up right now.
I have so many stories I could post about my experience at PBC, but will NOT for fear of being identified. I really am afraid and torn, but don’t know where to go = I would even move to have the opportunity to attend a solid church. I am glad to be beyond that nightmare. Thanks.
NoStatusQuo,
I have been involved with University education the last few years. I would love to see you at the University of your dreams. I’m sure there must be a way, even if it involves taking an SAT at this late point in time (or another admissions exam). Let me know if I can help.
Larry Asplund
NSQ, Regent University has taken PBC students into their Master’s program in the past.
So has Liberty University. I graduated from there with my MBA.
I wonder what employer in the real world accepts these degrees from PBC, Regent, Liberty…
Oh yeah, that one cable news station, what was their name?
[Comment ID #37647 Will Be Quoted Here]
No Status Quo
I really hear you. I am an X PBCer and earned what I thought to be a Bachelors degree from PBC. I was naïve and did not truly know the difference academically between accreditation, and seeking accreditation. I thought they were working on accreditation and finally received it but, it appears they did not. I have to be honest I was upset. I can’t tell you if I would trade those years. I do think how things could have been different if I went to ORU or Regents but how can I really know the outcome. I do not remember much of what was taught at PBC really but I fell in Love with studying God’s word and that affection has stayed with me so I could keep learning. I remember my life changing drastically those four years. I believe God cares more about who we are than what we know. Not that anything is wrong with Knowledge either. I am just saying I needed to change and God used that time to work on my heart and prepare me for greater disappointment in life and a purpose . I left PBC with hopes to return to, hinted promises from ,my church to be used there in ministry. What was to unfold was many years of waiting as God worked on my heart. I had to get a JOB! My wife was pregnant. I remember trying to get a job at the Christian school our church had. They wanted to Pay me 80 a week and I needed 100 to make ends meet and they would not do it. So God ended up blessing me with a good UPS job that paid well and I volunteered in the church as often as I could. Well I learned that when I put my faith in fallen man instead of God I will eventually be disappointed. Men sometimes work their own agenda not Gods. God is very patient and wants the best for us. I am not the ego centered person I once was. Life, disappointments, setbacks, and expectations crushed have softened my heart for people. I care more and value others more than I ever did before in my life. It could have worked out much differently if I allowed myself to be bitter and harbor resentments and un-forgiveness in my heart. I knew it was not biblical and not the way of following Christ. I made decisions to follow the higher road even when I was taken advantage of, lied to, and disappointed by those I trusted. What I never expected was for leaders to participate in these same actions. How I handled that has only made me a better person inside. I forgave everyone even though in tears I had days I wanted to get even, hold resentment, or just give up on God’s plan for my life. I am not telling you this to judge you in any way. That is not my intention or place. Forgiving those who hurt us is a decision that can take some time and it is also a process. I hope you can get to that point so that you won’t be trapped in the past hurt but free to move into your beautiful future. Yes God has something really neat for you because he does see what you have been through and cares a lot about your life. You are worth it. God accepts you even when man does not. I want to encourage you to find a place you can connect with God then with others. Don’t let the enemy shame you into Isolation and fear. Try a couple churches this weekend. It is ok if they are not exactly what you are looking for. I will be praying that God does lead you where you can feel welcome and loved. Mostly I will be praying that God opens your eyes to your value and true worth in him. You are priceless and Gods masterpiece. I am praying he will turn all your sorrows into Joy and you will find your place of purpose and peace. Love in Christ.
I’m wondering who still teaches classes up there? Doug and Donna are gone, as well as a number of others, anyone know?
Maybe Andrew D?
Andrew D is still a student. Lanny Hubbard, one of my favorites, is still teaching – and definitely everyone’s favorite. The music teachers are good – and very helpful/nice/enthusiastic. Sharon Wager taught a class, which I hear was amazing. But, she and Bob have since moved to Africa.
Samuel 7777, THANK YOU!
Your post was very encouraging – and a reminder that I’m not alone, and that there really were things I learned at PBC. I grew in my personal walk with the Lord, and grew in skill in many areas. From the moment I walked on campus to this moment in time, I learned to open up more, share my heart, and witness to others. I’m not comfortable in it, at all, but whether I am or not isn’t the question – God even used Moses to lead the nation of Israel out of Egypt – and he was terrified of public speaking (and didn’t think himself worthy). 
Another comment in here reminds me of something… I was with family at a church (charismatic, spirit-filled) and my cousin told someone where I’m from and that my church was City Bible – “you know, the one Pastor Frank is pastoring”… the person had a very confused look… “I’ve never heard of him”. Yes, CBC and the other churches (and PBC) have done great things, and have fostered and guided a relationship with the Lord in many areas – but the sphere they “think” they have isn’t as wide or as big as they think. That is the downfall. If I were to presume I have greater influence than I do, I’d be prideful. Why is a church/school not held to the same standards – by others or among themselves?
Yep, outside of MFI pretty much no one has. Pretty much sums up Franks sphere of influence. MFI churches and that’s about it.
Colleges in general are notorious for producing students for jobs that don’t exist giving them degrees that aren’t worth the paper they are written on. Somehow I had the expectation that God would use PBC to give my life direction and show me his purpose. The reality is: better sharpen your pencil and recognize that PBC will not give you anymore marketability then any other ill thought out program. God gave us brains to be used not to suspend belief and fall for every “promise” coming down from the pulpit. I was that brain of mush when I went to PBC believing that my faith in God would give me direction, alas, it hasn’t worked that way. If I didn’t have a brain of mush I would have been more discerning and making sure that there was a job at the end of the line. We all know the mind games the church will play (re: tithing, God’s anointed) on anybody questioning their “wisdom” and it is the same to encourage many to study for “ministry” knowing full well that there is no place for them to serve and yes, make a career out of it.
Hello Portland (from Georgia). I have been involved in university administration since leaving the PBC faculty and have discovered that almost 80% of college graduates do not end up working in an area relevant to there degree program/major. It’s not only an issue with for-profit schools but with all schools. The “market” value-added feature of a Bible college program is even less clear. At best a Bible college education is discipleship on steroids and/or preparation for seminary. It’s only a seminary education that has specific vocational ministry significance.
As we say in the south, “I’m just sayin’.”
Hello Georgia, I am transplanted to the East Coast as well. As I said, even though my mind was full of mush, my faith was that God would provide the difference. I guess my faith was misinformed or poorly trained?
Going to Bible college is worth less than a psychology degree… just sayin’.
Blessings to all, I have never gone into PBC though I served in some capacity in BT/CBC Indonesian ministry and have many int’l friends who went there.
I just found this blog to my surprise. After reading all of what have been said here, I am wondering when are we going to start talking about how much God has used you as His servant? after all, its not your education nor intellectual that matter in the kingdom of God, it’s your heart; and your heart can only be birthed new by Holy Spirit, not by PBC or any others. If you go to PBC because of someone told you so, this may be a bad place for you. If you go to PBC and you dont have a servant heart to serve Christ, then it means nothing to you.
in short, who benefits from this bickering? no one but the one who loves division among His body.
Brothers/sisters in Christ (if you are one), where can you find perfect church or Christian institutions? NONE! because they are run by imperfect men. So why wasting time on this blog bickering? Instead, if you consider yourself part of His body, you should edify one another, that is part of the mandate Christ gave us in Luke, “love one another as I have loved you”.
Always think the other as more important than yourself, that is the heart of a servant. its the sign of mature disciples of Christ.
Lets get back to our knees and draw compassion from His presence.
finally, if I insult your intelligence, forgive; if my comment hurt your feelings, I apologize. I dont intend to hurt anyone.
Open rebuke is better than secret love; Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. Prov 27:5-6.
His servant,
PS
PS, I would almost say “yada yada yada” but I guess that would be juvenile. If I sold you a car after telling you that it was well maintained, would give you years of joy, and you would never regret the decision and yet the very next day the wheels fell off and you had to have it towed away, what blog would you be on?
I suggested at one time that we needed a 10 Step Program for former PBC addicts and that is the need that this blog fulfills. It isn’t just PBC but perhaps an overdose on Charismania that has sent many of us to this blog looking for balance. If you read the blogs you will find that those commenting have moved on with their lives. The challenge is that those who specifically sought out truth, and invested time and money into their search, found out later that they were chasing a lie. That is a hard pill to swallow.
Today, I worked on a job application and resume and was stumped to explain why I went to an un-accredited institution for 4 years and that now I wasn’t even working in any field even close to the degree that I received. I appreciate that all things work together for good–but with those betting odds you don’t want me to be your stockbroker!
Sharing your faults with one another that you may be healed–I suppose we shouldn’t use scripture that might support the validity of this blog?
I can appreciate that as a person we need Christ because we are f* up but I never dreamed that attending Christians schools would make me even more f* up. And no, I am not blaming these institutions, I am blaming myself. I believed the lie, I fell for the slick marketing, I only have myself to blame. But it doesn’t change the fact that I need to move on with my life and find what is the “truth” again (and believe me I won’t go looking for the truth in those same institutions!).
And that, Phillip is the value of this blog. If you didn’t go to PBC then you couldn’t understand, not that you wouldn’t want to understand, you can’t.
Is it a figment of my imagination that most of the teachers at PBC had degrees from accredited institutions but were endorsing a program without accreditation? Were we just the guinea pigs to the mad scientists? “Hey, we got this great program we call it college–but it isn’t a college, and if you come here, you could get a job in, uh, one church, uh, CBC (no vacancies but over 100 applicants per year).
A few years ago, a little church had this great idea for raising money, they called it indulgences. Man, they made a killing (sometimes literally) on the masses. Built a lot of beautiful churches (I am sure all for the glory of God!). And it was perfectly acceptable to the masses–after all, the men of cloth could withhold your access to heaven so you had better play along. Except for the French government that shut down the church–I guess we call that persecution–the gall that the secular state had to tell the church to behave!
Yet, I digress, just yesterday I asked Larry for clarification on what degree I got all those years later–the un-accredited one. But I went to college–but it isn’t a college. What was it? Maybe if they called it by the moniker, “Portland Bible Sunday School” I would have realized that it wasn’t a college after all but a Club Med so to speak and a nice place to park for four years. But they have teachers and a dean and chapel and grades and huge rule book–isn’t that a college? I guess not. If someone told you to jump off a cliff would you do it? Normally no, but in church, we do it all the time (although there was a PBC student who jumped out of the cafeteria window at the behest of my sister–the power of suggestion!).
So, do we have a Bible College in wolf’s clothing?
Well brother, I can feel your frustration and pain for your “losing years”; just take whatever good things you gained while you’re there. Whether I can understand or not about this issue, all I can say is that if I go to PBC it wouldnt be because I am pursuing a credit/degree, it would mainly for enrichment.
I have always had this view that we shall not go to Bible college to get a “job” in a ministry. This may sounds strange but this is the the “problem” with American ministry, too much emphasize on it. No wonder Christianity is declining in western world. Needless to say, if one went to PBC expecting accreditation for transfer to other institutions, then I see a problem and I know that this is what this blog is mainly for.
in any case, I am making comments here as an “outsider”, am your brother to be a bridge of understanding if I could. again, I apologize if I offended you in anyway.
Please guard your heart.
Blessings to you,
PS
[Comment ID #38490 Will Be Quoted Here]
[Comment ID #38490 Will Be Quoted Here]
Your spot on, Phillip, I dropped my guard the first day I arrived at PBC.
WOW I didn’t realize I would be getting all these emails when I found this site and asked about if anyone like me who had attended 4 years at PBC were able to get another college to accept their credits. I have to honestly say I then just found out they never completed their accreditation. Weather they ever intended to or not I guess in in question. I appreciate all who have commented as everyone has some good input. It is obvious that some are hurt. It is obvious PBC did not clarify their unaccredited status. This makes me wonder a couple things. How naive I was at 19 years old now I am in my 40's. Secondly, why a Christian organization would not be more forthright to make sure each person knew exactly what they were getting. I cannot speak for them or their intentions only the Lord knows and I would rather be naive than put myself as judge and jury. I have been there and been wrong before. BUT I also would not like to be one who for money is misleading Gods children if that is the case. In the end all I can really say to us all is lets forgive those who have hurt us an move on. I know I have to. I am upset yes but I know I cannot allow un forgiveness to trap me in the past. I had some character changing experiences at PBC just by opening the word and reading it and studying it for myself. I have to choose to focus on the positive and forgive so I can move to my future. I work with many who cannot forgive those who have hurt them and cannot move on and I don’t want to be one of them. As for the mosque comment I have nothing to say but that I live in NY! And I guarantee there will be no Mosque allowed here by New Yorkers in ground zero. We know all Muslims are not evil people. If a person hurts me I can forgive them but that does not mean I should trust him or his brother. This trust may take time to regain.
Thanks for the "insight" Phillip but I take issue with a few things.
Um yeah, that's kind of the point of this thread dude. The "leaders" at PBC DO tell people to go there when they shouldn't. That's where the wrongness lies. They should leave it up to the person to decide for themselves and be open and honest about the type of instruction (and not education) that PBC is providing. People who complain about it aren't in the wrong, it's the people who sell it who are faulty.
People who are smart enough to read this and realize that all things CBC/PBC are not OK and dangerous to one's spiritual life. Those who just sit idly by and let the brainwashing occur are the one's who really suffer.
Yeah but that doesn't mean when someone walks all over you that your suppose to roll over and play dead. No if someone screws you over you speak out against it. Don't buy into the lie that you must keep your mouth shut in the name of being a good Christian. Corruption is corruption and Jesus spoke out against it everyday of his life. A mature disciple of Christ knows a wrong when they see it and speaks out against it.
EXACTLY! THAT'S WHAT WE ARE DOING. I think you just gave us a new slogan for this blog. Instead of allowing spiritual abuse due to a blind love for CBC, more people should rebuke the corrupt leaders that are lying to the masses week in and week out. Thanks for pointing that out Philip!
I am sure that I am a little behind on the 8 ball–assuredly all you intellectual bloggers have already gone down this road and read this article:
Acts 20:30—-”Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.” (Barners’ Notes on the Bible)—Also of your own selves – From your own church; from those who profess to. be Christians.
Speaking perverse things – Crooked, perverted, distracting doctrines διεστÏαμμεÌνα diestrammena. Compare the notes on Acts 13:10. They would proclaim doctrines tending to distract and divide the church. The most dangerous enemies which the church has had have been nurtured in its own bosom, and have consisted of those who have perverted the true doctrines of the gospel. Among the Ephesians, as among the 1 Corinthians 1 1 Corinthians 1:11-13, there might be parties formed; there might be people influenced by ambition, like Diotrephes 3 John 1:9, or like Phygellus or Hermogenes 2 Timothy 1:15, or like Hymeneus and Alexander, 1 Timothy 1:20. Men under the influence of ambition, or from the love of power or popularity, form parties in the church, produce divisions and distractions, and greatly retard its internal prosperity, and mar its peace. The church of Christ would have little to fear from external enemies if it nurtured no foes in its own bosom; and all the power of persecutors is not so much to be dreaded as the plans, the parties, the strifes, the heart burnings, and the contentions which are produced by those who love and seek power, among the professed friends of Christ.
NOTHING is new under the sun, mens hearts are still the same “PRIDE”,,,,,there’s a saying,,,,,,See in your church who the MOST popular person there is,,,,,count the heads in the Saturday night prayer meeting THEN count the heads Sunday morning—-you’ll know straightway who’s the most popular!!
Hear ye, hear ye, all you drive by bloggers. I have come out of a Cult, now treat me to your opinion and help me find my way home to a vibrant church body. Just don’t tell me to go back to the Church I grew up in. If you have no positive input, then just shut-up when you want to say that I am cynical and bitter. Here is your big chance to prove you really know more then me. Bring it on.
Okay, after spending 20 years in the spiritual closet, and thankfully there was a WI-FI connection in the closet so I could find this blog!, where do I go to find my “way home”. The oxymoron is that my cynicism was the right response. I was misled, I did believe a lie, and I was right to doubt and turn away from it. But what now, Greek Orthodoxy? Old Catholicism? Reformed Anglican? House church? Going to house church would be the ultimate irony. My father couldn’t find a church that he believed in so we had church in our home for 3 years. Can’t get anymore basic then that.
So where to? Can’t believe Cat is starting a new church or Detox or The Reformer or NSQ or Wes or Anna, so where to? How do you start over and look at scripture with clear lenses? I’ve been eating shit for so long, I am not sure if I taste buds would recognize healthy food when I bit into it.
Wow, Stephen. You said it very clearly! Good for you.
As for what church? Oh my. There is no perfect church (which is what the drive-bys always say). So you have to do two things: (1) pray and (2) decide on your priorities.
(1) Pray. I know that it sounds silly, but I’m not talking about a “Dear God…” while you’re driving down the street. I mean serious time in silence on your knees, with your Bible, opening the heart and allowing the light and the correction. There’s a quote I heard once, “You can’t go deep on the run.” There just is no substitute for time. And it’s worth every minute, because HE is the reward.
(2) Priorities. What is the most important thing about church to you? The doctrine? The singing? The relationships? Gifts operating?
For me personally, it was the teaching at CBC that I could not listen to anymore. So we found a church where the teaching is wonderful. But the music is all old hymns, which has its own charm, but I miss the modern stuff sometimes. I miss my friends, but I am making new ones. There are still control freaks, but they exist everywhere! The gifts are hidden, but still there if you look. It’s just different.
But I no longer sit in the pew, screaming internally, “That’s not what the Bible says!!” I no longer seethe with frustration that IMAGE has replaced substance in the leadership. I no longer react to the rampant elitism that has spawned an arrogance that permeates every member — nice though they may be.
Is my church perfect? No. But it is where God put our family for now. And I have to trust Him. Because if I do, then He will direct my path. I can tell you where I go to church, but it might not be the place for you. Do you even live in Portland? Cat doesn’t. So if he started a church, we’d all have to move across the country!
But Anna, your no drive by!
I have seriously considered joining Al Anon as a starting place, but seriously, it is my “secular” friends who have encouraged me most to give God a second look. So much for honesty, if the only place for honesty is coming from the “world”. No, I left the LEFT Coast a long time ago and feel better now that I live on the RIGHT Coast.
Perhaps the start is to come up with a “limit” of how much God is in my life. Before, part of the cultic upbringing, was the assumption that our lives had to be 100% in God, i.e. 100% in the Church. God will tell you who to marry, who to bury, where to work, everything–except He doesn’t.
You can pray until the cows come home, but if you are praying for something God had no intention of blessing (like tithing or just prosperity) then your just wasting your time and breath.
I guess I need a “business plan” a vision or mission statement for my relationship with God. Then, it doesn’t matter what I hear in the Church, I can be refreshed by bits and pieces rather then looking for the all knowing all pure Church. I have acknowledged before that when I attended PBC my mind was mush. I lacked discernment, I swallowed whole the string of baloney that was presented to me. Thus maybe the cure for cultic organizations is for people to be whole, because if your not whole you are looking for a “king” or “savior” who can bring you to the real King and Savior.
I have attended Episcopalian Churches, Methodist, Baptist, Assembly, Evangelical, Greek Orthodox, Pentecostal, Home, Churches in Mexico, Canada, and Japan yet never have felt at peace with them. They all seem to be “better” then me–as if I should feel guilty because I am not good enough for them or God. So my search for wholeness has gone outside the Church and ironically, now that I am becoming whole, my secular helpers are telling me to find wholeness with God. The Church couldn’t do anymore then show me what I lacked, while the world is showing me how to be whole and then complete the circle by understanding how to reapproach God. Weird. The Church pushed me away and now I am going back to embrace the Church. Truth is stranger then fiction.
Oh, man. Got that right! Just a few days ago I was praying for a friend who called me to “storm the gates of heaven” (silly phrase, if you ask me) on her behalf. She said she’s been fasting and praying to hear from God. Anyhow, I did pray for her to hear from Him, and said something like, “Lord, you know her inside and out, and know just how to talk to her so she will hear You.”
Boy, was I surprised when I “heard” the Holy Spirit say, basically, “She doesn’t want to hear from Me; she wants Me to agree with her.” Knowing my friend, I had to laugh, because it was so right. But it also taught me another big lesson in prayer. Jesus meant what He said when He instructed us to pray, “THY will be done.”
As for finding wholeness — it is hard to find in the Church. Agreed. That’s because the Church (generally) has not taught people how to find wholeness in the Cross of Jesus Christ.
I’m glad your mind is not mush anymore.
“As for finding wholeness — it is hard to find in the Church. Agreed. That’s because the Church (generally) has not taught people how to find wholeness in the Cross of Jesus Christ”
After working in the Christian world for well over a decade, I have been working in the secular world for the past three years. In the church, it was way to easy to cruise and not ask the tough internal questions. The church doesn’t encourage questions, doubts and diversity. Taking a new route has been difficult. It has not been fun. However, it is leading me to find wholeness. It is now not so much about doing than being. My current church appreciates people’s need to just be without worrying about the machine.
GU Rap – “Pastor Frank” & GU Merchandise…
The wholeness I have found in my years of searching for God is literally “holeness”. All that I have to show for it now is a hole in my spiritual make-up. Holeness.
The World would say, “If its broke, fix it.” The Church would say, “If its broke, don’t fix it.” It being the Church. Isn’t the basic premise that the “Church” as we know it is Gods vehicle for bringing us closer to him? Yet, this blog in its entirety is about the abuse of the Church. It is like we believe in free enterprise after we raise tariffs, bail out GM, take over the markets, and impose the minimum wage. Do we really believe that the markets will find a balance? No. We believe in free markets if we don’t lose everything just as long as we make money.
There is some rot in our Church heritage that almost ensures that in the end rot will prevail. Maybe it is our need to have a King–and God gave Israel a King. Is another way… ?
Stephen,
John 12:16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.
John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
The purpose of “College” is to supply you with tools for you to study and learn. What ever tools, as meager as they maybe, PBC gave you let the Holy Spirit/Counselor help you to understand the Scriptures/Jesus’s words. Remember the ENTIRE Bible are the words of Jesus Christ.
Scripture tell us that EVERYONE WILL fail you, BUT Jesus will always be there for you,,,,at times it may not “FEEL” like it but He is there.
The “Church” as you are describeing WILL FAIL YOU because you are looking for help from a body of people. The real “Church” that Christ is building is NOT housed in walls, the Church is the body of Christ.
The ONLY WAY for you to “feel” whole is for YOU and Christ to get alone with your Bible and let Him through the Holy Spirit figure things out, because your answers ARE NOT going to come from man.
Stephen, my prayer for you is Colossians 1:9-12; For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
I think I know where you are coming from. Like the Doctor who amputated the wrong leg, said “Oops my bad” then proceeded to amputate the right leg. Oops my bad, go be warmed and filled!
Insider: it seems your intentions are kind, and you are trying to encourage Stephen with relevant scripture.
BUT, the responsibility for spiritual health in the young and immature (which generally defines PBC students) lies with the shepherds of the church the student attends. THEY bear that responsibility, as declared in both OT and NT.
When a Christian matures, and discovers that (s)he has been duped and used by the leadership, anger is a natural response — and not all that unChristian either, as the Lord Himself voices in Ezekiel.
It is a sad day in the Church of Jesus Christ when nurturing and trust must be viewed with suspicion, and young people are expected to raise themselves. And all because the “shepherds” are more concerned with their images and bank accounts.
… As NSQ reminds us with the GU rap. Ugghh.
[Comment ID #38895 Will Be Quoted Here]I can only tell you about my own journey, and perhaps it will help. Don’t keep looking in the same places for your answers. I have found great joy and peace in reading different things, like John Wesley’s journals for one. A rented movie called “Brother Sun, Sister Moon” really connected with me, it can still inspire and even make me weep after many viewings. Spend time being quiet with Him, ask simple things, like “does Jesus love me?” listen to what comes back! Read the gospels and pay attention to what Jesus said and did, and see where you can apply them in your daily life, even if it is small stuff at first. He is there, and He wants to talk to you!
I did my pbc stuff from 71-76 and BT for about 8 years total. Anyway my pbc memories are actually pretty good in comparison to the church, which could speak to more corruption in recent times or because I was married I didn’t live in the dorms, so not as intense scrutiny.
Stuff like…
I can remember George Eliott, long, lanky and dorky – a lot like me, the Maiden bros and their bricklaying, David Rollins was going for Greek, the Vogels Bill and Mike, and Mike breaking his glasses on purpose to believe for healing! Then there was the sadness we all had one year when a student committed suicide during the summer (can’t remember his name right now), speaking of death I remember Robert Gaigos, so funny and everybody’s friend; they said he later died from Aids (didn’t ever know if that was really true),
I remember when Ken Malmin went right from student to teacher, and when they first announced there would be teams going out and my disappointment when I didn’t make the cut, but felt hooray for Davey Mac and Franky D when they got to go. Mike Heron went to Ireland I think and we were always waiting to see what new song he had written, and what was that singing group called they had with the Malmins and Suzie Whetsol? And anybody remember voting on song of the year. The one I really liked was “Be Thou my Vision”
I liked Dean Stricker and gained even more respect for him when one time I went to his office and he was down on his knees praying between classes not for show or anything; he didn’t even know I was there!
Didn’t know what to think of Bro. Lancaster, but of all the chapel or retreat messages, his one on “Failure is God’s Greatest Gift to His Children” stuck with me the most and I’ve since spoken on it several times myself. Everybody liked Kevin Conner when he replaced Stricker and every class you got with him you thought was the ultimate. But my fav teacher was Wayne Hayworth who eventually left over “differences”
There was Steve Paulson, he was cool back then, Mike somebody who had a temper, Jay Fairbanks, Dave Phillips (is that the right last name?) Nona, Marsha, and the Probst’s, two sisters who were the daughter of what was that elder’s last name, Benson? Bill Sizemore went for a year or two I think; him and Malmin could put up the points for our basketball team.
I was a peon in the pecking order and had a lot of frustrations, but heck what can I say; I think it was a more “innocent” time. Shoot, even wearing the mandatory tie didn’t bother me back then. – Jay Lawrence
Ah, memories. Too bad joebib isn’t here to reminisce. He remembered far more than I did. But I was only there a year — the same year the Bryan bros were roomies with Steve T. Kevvies heavy revvies were reserved for the seniors, and getting an A from Dr. Blomgren was the highlight of my year.
Anna I was there then! (or you were there the year after I graduated) You probably don’t remember me because I was such a peon. Dave Bryan was in my reform school outreach. I forgot about Blomgren, but he was one of my favs too. Steve T? (trying to remember who you mean)
Then there was the hoping to get picked for presbytery prophecying every year. Again, another frustration, but I liked the morning prayer, even though I think I remember one of the Fife brothers just sleeping through a bunch of them. And some guy named Andy I think, who was pretty zealous and all he wanted was to be a prison chaplain. Wonder if that’s what he did.
Hi Jay, I’m thinking I remember you from PBC days, I went in the late 70′s. Did you have an older Ford SW? I think I recall riding around with you and D. Maiden for some reason. Anyway, glad to see you on here!
Are you still in the Portland area?
I did have an older Ford wagon at one time and was in Duff and Susie’s home group for awhile. Could’ve been anyway. Tell me your name or e-mail if you want to keep it private. I give the Mortons or reformer or whoever’s looking after the site to give you my addy. I think I left BT about 1979 but still had some connections there because I worked for someone in the church.
Jay, tried emailing WhatHeSaid your email but it came back undeliverable.
well that one still works. But here’s my business one as an alternate superiortouchrestoration@gmail.com
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Oh your email works fine. It’s his email that comes back undeliverable. But now maybe he will see this and email you directly.
Cheers!
It is sadly ironic that my “youthful indiscretions” were all about attending PBC. Could the error of my ways be any worse then the “usual” youthful indiscretions? It is perplexing that false doctrine can be seeded so deep into ones soul that it takes a lifetime to overcome. Maybe because a false view of God permeates and colors every decision in life. Someday I can share my testimony and how in my youth I lived a life that wasn’t pleasing to God…
Interesting blog…just stumbled upon it while distracting myself from work. Was at PBC during the 77-81 era and remember most of the people jayjacque mentioned. I lived in the dorm upstairs from the Bryan boys, Steve T. and Steve A…while the educational/indoctrinational part of it didn’t much stick with me, my social memories are something that always make me look back at with a smile…
I heard sad news this week.. A Japanese student committed suicide up there.
Then Frank was trying to console people and saying basically once saved always saved ….
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He was one of my good friends while at PBC. The news came as a huge shock early this last week. Breaks my heart. Did the police investigate? Were they involved? Can’t find any info anywhere about a service or notice. He was the most cheerful, friendly, passionate about his personal relationship with Jesus young man I’ve ever known. We lost communication since I left PBC, so I don’t know how he was doing the last year or so. Wish I could have done something, but I know everyone else feels that way too.
I might have known this person. I tried googling and didn’t find anything. That is terrible. I’m surprised there was no police report or any note of a service.
[Comment ID #42018 Will Be Quoted Here]
It still baffles me. It was devastating news, but there’s nothing yet to be found. His name was Hotaru. He was a very sweet, Japanese student, who put his heart & life & time on the line for CBC, while loving & worshipping Jesus was his priority – one has to wonder when that became confused amongst all the demand for his attention to the institution of the church. My heart breaks for him, for how he must have been feeling – and probably without anyone there in the bubble to feel as he felt.
Just wondering what your all’s definition of a Bible College is? What were you expecting to get out of it?
Were you there just for th education, using it as a stepping stone to another degree? Or were you there to learn about Heaven forbid the Bible, and Bible related things that might be useful in your walk with Christ, and or ministry if you had (persued) one?
I am having a hard time understanding what some people were expecting to get from the experience. I think it is interesting to listen to everyone talk about their experiences there. I I guess each experience is what you make of it.
I went for one year and learned a lot about the Bible, and dealing with peple.
My sister graduated from PBC in 1995, and she was able to get a Masters degree from Regent.
The thing that amazes me is how the rules are there as far as group dating and stuff, but everyone has an issue with it. PBC is not a bar.
What I think everyone fails to know is that PBC and City Bible Church were founded back when the way of life was decent. Heck when I was there we wore dresses to PBC and Church (25 years at City Bible)!! We didn’t even dare think about wearing pants to church. There are some rules that have been passed down from former generations of leaders (grant it I will admit there are some things that I think are a little strict an rigid…old fashioned)…but I guess they’ve worked…so they aren’t gonna fix them.
That’s my opinion.
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I’m not the only one to have gone to PBC in my family. Over the years, it has changed from a solid Bible college accepted by other universities in the region & classes taught by professors & degreed teachers, to an internship program (double the cost) not accepted by any universities (especially the music program) taught by one or two professors (the others were fired to cut down costs) & others of my classmates (who should never be allowed to teach, simply because they have no more information, knowledge, or experience than I, or everyone else in the classes).
In all the advertisements, promotions, and flyers mailed or emailed or posted online, I have found NOTHING saying PBC is non-accredited. They used to be pursuing accreditation, but they stopped it when PF took complete control. Now he has his empire of CBC, MFI, PBC, and several church “plants” that rely 100% on his support, and if they go off-script, well, “bye-bye”!
No matter what rules they had before (rules that have mostly been obliterated), it was at least a college pursuing the noble goal of being something more than a laughing stock… they wanted to be a respected Bible college – forget the fact that the local accredited university, Multnomah, would send its students there for their research papers on “Cult churches”, even back then (over 15 years ago). Haha!
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It sounds like you had a bad experience at PBC. I am sorry to hear that. I am not trying to be facetious, but I am just wondering what hapened to you that would make you commet the way you do towards the school and Pastor Frank? Seriously Asking…if PBC was so bad, then why did other members of your family go there too?
I think you have your facts a little backwards. As far as accredidation is concerned. From what I was told (by someone that taught there) PBC has been accredited since the 1990′s. That might be why they do not say they are non accredited. They have even expanded their types of classes offered to make transfering easier. Like I said before my sister had no problem getting her Masters degree…must depend on the school you want to go to next.
Since you seem to be so knowlegeable Pastor Frank…I am wondering if you have any facts to back up what you state about Pastor Frank’s “Empire”? What churches have been cut, and what were all the circumstances surrounding why they were cut (if it’s true)? Seriously Asking…are you one of those churches (or a member of one of those churches…maybe a worship leader of one of those churches)? I think it is interesting you say “if they go off script” Well there is a script there for a reason, and depending on how “off script” they go, there might be a reason to cut them off. Any other denomination would do the same.
You’d have to prove to me that they got cut off for no reason.
By the way some of the rules at PBC needed to be done away with. There were some really strict rules (like wearing dresses 6 days a week) that came from Pastor Iverson’s Father’s era (1950′s I think), and they needed to be done away with. Whenever you have somene new come in, there are going to be some changes made. They still keep the dating rules, and I’m sure they have implemented new rules as necessary
I guess it just depends on what circles you run in, because I know for a fact that there were some serious Theological issues with what Multnomah teaches. Seriously Asking again…If Multnomah was so great then why didn’t you and your family members go there???
Like I said before…I guess PBC is what you make of it.
Wow. You lost my attention right away. “from what I was told”,… sorry to disappoint you, but they never have been – sounds like the same “misinformation” about a legit education that I believed.
Computer problem – will answer rest later. Can’t wait. Took 15 minutes.
PBC is an unaccredited institution – I graduated from there recently, so I should know. They have exempt status in Oregon so they can grant degrees, but the accrediting agency wanted PBC to separate the board over the school from the board of elders. Since PBC has always been a local church school (the school is considered to be a branch of City Bible Church), PBC declined to go any further in the process.
PBC graduates have gone to Western, Multnomah, George Fox, Regent Law School, and other seminaries. The local evangelical seminaries like PBC students and admit them since those schools know about PBC (PBC teachers have gotten graduate degrees from these places) and know that the students that PBC turns out are generally well-grounded and intelligent, but they are usually admitted as students without an undergraduate degree.
In my opinion, the school probably has declined a little in educational standards since the middle of the last decade, when several teachers were either let go and a few others resigned voluntarily. I think that those changes were necessary, though, both for budget reasons and due to the fact that a few of those teachers no longer agreed with the PBC statement of faith at several points. I think that this was probably a primary motive in releasing the teachers who were released, though this was never made explicit to the student body (so don’t take my word as gospel on that point). I hope that clears up any misconceptions.
@ R: The “Empire” is oficially known as MFI. In the MFI world (including CBC), Unity is prized, citing Psalm 133. Unity is defined as “being in alignment” with Leadership. Pastor Frank is the Leadership. His board of elders are all picked for their ability to be in alignment with him, and for their business abilities.
MFI is an extension of that. Unity of vision is prized. Churches have voluntarily left MFI (ie TCC) because they have a different vision. The originator of “the vision” is Pastor Frank.
Now. I have a question for you — Seriously Asking: have you ever been involved in a cult of any kind?
RE PBC being accredited…
Let me quote a well-known man… Forrest Gump
“Stupid is as stupid does.”
If “you” take someones word as the place being accredited in the real world, you get what you pay for. CHECK IT OUT. Know for youself if a private college is truly accredited.
Something I’ve wondered about from time to time. Is it possible the man himself has posted on here under an alias. Like for instance “R”, could that actually be taken from the R’s in the name and title senioR pastoR fRank D? How about it “R”? Are you really pastoR fRank tooting youR own hoRn?
Well, just a thought, but it could happen.
Wew – way to emphasize your point R by inferring elitist bull crap – It may work in the ‘circle’ you run in, but it’s not going to work here. We are onto your seriously-just-asking ever so subtle intimidation tactics. If you really wanted to know how NSQ was doing you’d ask, but it’s obvious you could really care less. And that, my dear, is why she left the bizarroland of CBC where a person’s worth is measured by his proximity to the inner circle. Hope you are enjoying the shallow end of the pool over there.
R sounds more like Mark Estes
I went to PBC for two years, and CBC for four years before that. I was super excited about going to PBC and my first year was amazing. I made tons of friends, and learned a lot about life and the Bible and worship (I was majoring in Songwriting.)
Then my second year came around, and all of the sudden things the blinders were slowly sliding of my eyes. There were so many things that felt so very wrong. The last straw was when I was in choir, practicing for worship that morning. I looked down and on the set list right between two songs someone had written (5-10 minutes for the spirit to move). I seriously couldn’t believe my eyes. When I saw something that so blatantly went against most of what I believed about worship, I began to look at everything else.
When one says, “If PBC is such a bad place, then why did you go there?”, they don’t understand that PBC is where you SEE what CBC/PBC is really like. Something I find quite interesting is that all the other students from PBC that agree with me happen to be music students. I don’t exactly know what that means, but I think that’s kinda funny. I think we had a little bit of a more in depth look at the behind the scene’s of CBC, and let me tell you, it’s so not pretty.
I had the discovery of what CBC/PBC is really like at the beginning on my last semester. I was living in the dorms and only working outside of the bubble. It was one of the worst few months of my life. I slept any time I could because it was the only way I could deal with everything that was going on. I carefully tested out the waters to see where my friends were standing at the time and none of them were seeing what I was seeing. I felt so alone and hurt.
A few years later and things are STILL coming to my mind of what was going on there. Thankfully I’ve found a great friend that I get to hash things over with and I’ve learned a lot. I moved out of state for a year and found a pretty great church, I was super involved (cleaning the church mostly because of my Custodial days Haha) and I was pretty happy. I moved back up to Portland last year, have had a crazy bad year and I have zero determination to find a church. The very though sickens me. I hold out hope that a good church exists, that I would fit into close by, but the hope is dim.
Anyways, that’s my PBC testimony. I just hope that people that are going to City Bible right now and read this blog, read it with an open mind. I know that’s hard to do, because I totally didn’t when I was going there, but it’s possible. Just remember there’s a lot of hurting people here, and responding in anger isn’t going to help heal all of our hurts, in fact it will just reinforce our standings.
HolyCrazyChristiansBatman! said:
Lots of musicians, songwriters, former worship and praise leaders here, HCCB!
In college I tried to balance music and business courses – working a corporate day job and doing concerts in churches around the Puget Sound every weekend. Though I can’t remember anything to do with songwriting, per se – it was all theory, group piano instruction (couldn’t play one to save my life), bands, choirs, music history, etc. Songwriting for me was simply by inspiration – couldn’t stop writing until the song was out. Occasional tools were a rhyming dictionary and thesaurus. It always puts a smile on my face when someone turns up an original lyric sheet from a known/famous songwriter – and it the scribbles, directional lines and crossouts look like one of my lyric sheets. Sometimes, it’s a lot like working a crossword puzzle …
Would be interested to hear what PBC thinks a ‘songwriting’ major should study and the kinds of classes offered for that.
Actually I think that the Songwriting major was available for one semester, and one semester only. They got rid of it before my second semester and I had to major in Worship Leading. That was a joke for sure. Haha
The classes that I took when I majored in Songwriting were the basic Music Major classes plus the Songwriting class that Jeremy Koepke taught, which was super awesome. Let’s see, I had Worship in the Bible, Music Theory 101 and choir (of course) that was lead by Bryan Bettis not Eugene Greco unfortunately (one of the major reasons I wanted to go to PBC was to be in Eugene Greco’s amazing choir and sadly didn’t get the chance to.) I also had to take Recording, Keyboarding, Basic Doctrine and the ever popular Passions and Values (BLEGH!) Oh, and then Worship Workshop taught by Donna. I don’t know how long they have had that class, but it’s basically everybody going through every single City Bible song that ever existed on their own instruments at once. :l
Passions and Values was a class taught by Frank. We were required to read one of his sorry excuses for a book each semester and write a paper on it. Most of us skimmed the chapter titles and BSed our way from there. Always got an A of course. Haha I ended up just not showing up that class my last semester. Such a waste of time!
I did really love the Songwriting track though. I learned a lot and have written a few songs since. None that I would sing in public though. Haha Mostly just for my own devotion.
It is cool to see some people’s scribbles for songs. They are like art pieces in and of themselves.
“R” is a drive-by. I hope he/she keeps goin’ down the road.
Just curious, but do any of you guys have comments or experiences with Bethel down in Redding? I just listened to one of the messages, and I can’t tell you why for the life of me, but it made me nervous. I have a best friend down there right now and she’s crazy happy, but I can’t help but be a bit cautious in getting excited with her. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
I take it some “movement” is going on there now and people go their to chase after God.
Hey HCCB, in my opionion… Bill Johnson teaches the newest form of the Manifest Sons of God / Kingdom Now doctrine. His emphasis is on the healing aspect of this teaching. Here is an example of his teaching.
The services (as I have heard from those who have gone; I have not) are similar to Renewal meetings, if you are familiar with that. They have an immersion school, more similar to IHOP or Morningstar than MFI internships. A lot of young people are attending.
It makes me cautious too.
Yes I think it is easier on God if He only has to show up in a few special places. Might be asking too much to show up for each believer.
Yeah, my friend is attending Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry. I hadn’t heard of Manifest Sons of God or Kingdom Now doctrine, so I just went and read up on both. Wow. That’s actually pretty scary.
When I listened to one of his messages last night, the first 15 minutes to a half an hour was on healing, getting people to pray for healing for someone around them. That in itself has always made me feel weird, but the way he spoke of healing really made me step back. He then said he was going to have more services have more healing in them instead of talk. I thought that was very interesting…and it made me shiver(in a bad way.)
My friend has told me that people come from all over the world for their healing rooms. You said it Stephen! Haha! That made me laugh! It’s almost like a repeat of the Florida “revivals”, which we all know didn’t turn out so well.
All I know is that I’m definitely very careful about what to take in from what my friend says. She’s my one of my best friends, and it makes me really nervous for her. :/
About a year or two ago we had a bunch of their 20 yr. old students up here for a gathering to “teach us by example” how to perform healing ministry. One guy kept saying how he was seeing and talking to and even petting angels, and exhorted us to do the same and even cuddle them. Can’t see Bill Johnson going that far out there, but it was downright weird!
Actually, I can totally see that from what my friend has talked about. The whole angel thing, that we are supposed to have relationships with them and see them all the time, kinda freaks me out and has never felt right. They also frequently have gold flakes falling in their services and angel feathers. I don’t know. I can’t really see God doing either of those things. :/ That’s weird that they would have them come to a CHURCH to lead by example! Hahaha! What the heck?
It has always been about sharing the good cultish news–good for late night TV or YouTube. Is this right in line with Prayer Tunnels and Laughing or if it sounds too good to be true…?
If you can pet an angel and they’re shedding feathers, perhaps a flea collar is in order?
Can we please have a serious debate about what kind of feathers should be used during a service? Chicken, goose, eagle? Should the gold be represented with fools gold?
I attended PBC over 25yrs ago. After leaving the place, I would say I lost my faith in God. Seeing all the phoniness, the nepotism (yes, it was there then), the backstabbing, the mind-control, made me realize the beloved message of Jesus was not meant to be used to build businesses.
It has taken me many years to rebuild my life after leaving Fundementalism. But it is possible. I love my life and am no longer afraid of The World. I have good friends, and feel a deep sense of beauty and purpose in living that my life in the church could never provide. I would never tell anyone to leave their church, but I’m just saying, if you don’t wanna be somewhere, if your gut is telling you something seems wrong, you can trust your gut. I trusted mine and I couldn’t be more grateful. We are naturally moral creatures. Morality based upon theory, religion, leads to major problems in the world. For anyone curious about other ways to see God that are more open and accepting, check out The Harvard Chaplancy.
I only wish I’d had the Internet when I was at PBC. I would have gotten away from that false religion so much sooner, and would not have had to do it all alone.
Peace.
Thank you noshortcuts! so grateful I am not alone. Pray I’ll find my way as well.
I finished PBC in 1985 although I have to say I fed my brain with so much mush that I didn’t grasp the fallacy of it for another 5 years later. It has been healing to be part of the PBC Internet Disporia and finding others who felt like what they were taught just didn’t hold up to the true light. The pain I experience in my relationships with those still in the Church is that they just can’t believe the things I say–so I must be the kook. I don’t wish for them to experience what I went through, yet, without experiencing it it is hard to believe it. The Prosperity Gospel is just so mainstream–who wants to fight against it? I can just see Jesus fighting against it–”Who would follow me, don’t take any extra clothes–much less your Cadillac’s & zillion dollar homes–and I will make you fishers of men–not like Creflo Dollar–fishing for dollars.”
I went to PBC for one semester in the fall back in the mid-80s. My reasons for leaving were that I just wasn't willing to work that hard for something that was giving me nothing in return. I was pedaling my 10-speed furiously over 5 miles to make shift at my low-paying minimum wage job, trying to support myself, working back there in the heat washing dishes, riding back to campus, the insides of my thighs getting all chafed and bloody if doing this over a few-day stretch, and then being told to suit up in my best and go to some essential church service that in the end was just like all of the other bazillion services they wanted you to attend. I think they just wanted as many opportunities as possible to collect tithes from the sheeple. Tithes on top of whatever tuition, room and board, or books other than the bible that one was paying for. Meanwhile the pastor's daughter is bombing around Portland in her spiffy sporty car, compliments of all the tithes being paid to that church, or should I call it a business? I suppose in a way it's not her fault, as she is a lifetime victim of fundamentalism, and there is no way that she is ever, ever going to get out, too psychologically blocked up to even consider it, like all of the rest of the leadership there that have formed a tightly knit, nepotistic group that prevents any kind of criticism or thought from getting through. Of the 39 individuals listed on the current PBC staff page, 22 of them are working together with someone with whom they are in some kind of family relationship, usually marriage. And that count is going by just the last names. Perhaps some of the ones with differing last names are also related in some way? Nepotism. One would be hard pressed to find this at a real college. With such a tightly knit, closed-off world of leadership, it's no wonder there is no information forthcoming on the Japanese student's suicide. They have probably led the cops on a wild goose chase to throw them off of any evidence, have probaby destroyed evidence and outright lied to the cops. I've seen this sort of thing before. It's Watergate all over again. I've seen them coddle sex-offeding pastors who get sent out on new assignments despite being sex offenders, or the leadership buying and selling expensive properties without the consent of the tithers. They never go hungry, as they have knowledge of how to feed off of the unsuspecting, naive sheeple.