Education and the City Church
Posted on August 19th, 2008 by catalyst into the Comments From Others categoryA reader writes:
"I was attending the City Church downtown which was run by Judah Smith's father Wendell Smith. Judah ran a group called Young Professionals and I attended this group for a couple of months. I do not attend this church any more because the members and Smith are insane.
Last Saturday I listened to Smith make a remark that Islam is a religion that only focuses on converting people and is intolerant. He then declared that Christianity is the only belief system that does not do this. I'm a history major and an educated person and know that Islam is a tolerant religion. Also, when it comes to extremism, any religion can be a religion of the sword.
After the service I went and talked with another member of the City Church (not Smith), explaining that Islam is not a bad religion and that Jews, Christians, and Muslims should live together in peace. This member blew up at me and accused me of having Satan in me and that other religions living together in peace are the work of the devil.
His father on telecasts makes these absurd claims that God has appeared to him in visions and that he has appeared to people and healed them. I was wondering if you know anyway that these people can be exposed as frauds or investigated."
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August 19th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Does this really surprise anyone? If people don’t know that Wendell Smith and the City Church is way off then they’ve haven’t really been paying attention.
August 19th, 2008 at 11:33 am
I think people get caught up in the charisma and confidence of the Smiths, and don’t actually pay attention to what is being said. It’s the only way I can explain their success. If you actually listen to what they say, you inevitably come away underwhelmed.
August 19th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
I agree with the comment that any religion can be a “religion of the sword” (a la the inquisition, the crusades, etc). The key word here being “religion”. True believers and Christ-followers would never intentionally manipulate, force, or co-erce.
However, I strongly disagree that Islam is a “tolerant” religion. While there are tolerant, wonderful muslim people in the world, the very nature of Islam is “submission” to Allah. The teachings and dictates from numerous imams, mullahs, and religious police (religious authorities) coupled with the extreme hatred the secular leaders have for Israel and Western thought in general combine in a very blatant way to seek to ENFORCE submission to Allah rather than focus on the individual’s own walk with this deity.
Jesus is STILL the Way, the Truth, and the Life…at leas I believe this to my core. Those who would seek to force Christianity on a person, however, go against the very word of God “whosoever WILL…come” (not “whosoever is forced by another man”).
August 19th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Anonymous said
Oh really? If you truly believe this, then this shows that you are not truly intune with your own heart. So based on this logic, people like Peter, James and John (the sons of Zebedee) and other God-fearing believer’s were not Christians according to your definition. And don’t get me started with all the OT patriarch’s, they were a “hot mess.” We all on some level sucumb to these impulses regardless of how spiritual we posture ourselves.
August 19th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
I would disgree with “religion” being the cause of wars and problems. It’s not religion but rather a human issue.
How about the communist regimes in USSR and other nations? They werent religious and in fact persecuted religious followers of any kind. There were dictators, atrocious crimes were committed. Its not religion but rather the innate evil nature of humanity. We are our own worst enemy.
August 19th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Almost every church I have ever been to has Christians who manipulate, force, or co-erce people into doing something for their benefit. A large number of great Christian leaders go around manipulating people everyday into sending them millions.
August 19th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Nina said:
Again, this is non-sense! Religious men take passage from the Bible and the Koran and use it to do some of the most unimaginable things. Where did men get the idea that slavery in the South was okay???? Why do you think those Islamic terrorist crash those planes into the world trade center? Both religious groups cited either the Bible or the Koran as justification for these heinous acts. Now I do agree, that there has been a ton of wars and problems at the hands of irreligious men. But either way you slice it or argue it, on both sides, if you tallied it up to see which contributed more to wars and problems, “religion” or “human issues,” at best you end up with a tie!
August 19th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
“Religious men take passage from the Bible and the Koran and use it to do some of the most unimaginable things. Where did men get the idea that slavery in the South was okay???? ”
—> I never denied that reality. I never implied that religion was not used to justify evil things. I didnt want to write a long post.
Even today there are white supremacist groups that claim that Christianity and God made things that way and it was God’s will. They quote scriptures and biblical principles, which are taken out of context, ignoring others to fit THEIR agenda. I watched an interview with a couple of leaders from Christian Identity. Nothing is Christian about them. They knew shit about the bibles or anything else.
As for the idea that slavery was okay in the South. It was not only the Bible that gave them the idea. Many ideas that justified racism were already circulating in Europe through philogy, “sciences” and philosophies and religion. Those ideas and random convienient scriptures from the Bible gave people the idea it was okay because it justified their desires.
At the same time, there were many other people who said slavery was evil from reading the Bible. Read some of Harriet Beecher Stowe’s writings and from other abolitionists. The Quakers were very much against slavery too.
At the same time, secularists were not that different either. Where do you think some social darwinists got their ideas of inferior races? They claimed by their “sciences” that racial inferiority were genetic. They compared African American race to the primates. A misinterpretation of “survival of the fittest” was used to justify colonization and racism. And take Nietzsche, who was the “official” philosopher of the Nazi party. His ideas were used to promote Nazi ideals and he was an atheist and often criticized Christianity. This was later. Hitler posed a good old moral, righteous church boy in the beginning to get power.
My point was that it is not only the religious people that do atrocious deeds. Both have equally done atrocities.
“But either way you slice it or argue it, on both sides, if you tallied it up to see which contributed more to wars and problems, “religion” or “human issues,” at best you end up with a tie! ”
EXACTLY my point! Neither religious or secular people were any different from each other. Both equally contributed to wars and problems because they have the same innate evil nature of humanity.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:07 am
Note that I said “intentionally force, coerce…” I do think that sometimes people feel they need to help the Holy Spirit do His work. They don’t even realize at times that that is what they’re doing.
There is a BIG difference between a pastor guilting someone to give, however (which I agree is certainly wrong) and religious police beating you because you are a woman showing your ankles, or killing you and your family because you convert to Christianity. Ask all the martyrs who’ve died at the hands of Islamic fundamentalists about the “tolerance” of Islam.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:22 am
Anonymous said:
The same can be said for Christian’s. You can ask all the (muslim) martyr’s who’ve died at the hands of Christian fundamentalist (i.e the Crusades) about the “tolerance” of Christianity. In fact, we don’t have to go that far back historically, ask Muslim countries what they think of American George Bush Christianity and they would say the same thing about our efforts for global
terrorismdemocracy.I get Islamic intolerance, but in so doing, let’s not pretend that our Christian heritage isn’t checkered with intolerance as well. What makes Christianity distinct from Islam is not that we are more tolerant (which could be true when the gospel is truly working in people’s lives), but the difference is this; the Christian God still redeems His people in spite of their intolerance.
August 20th, 2008 at 7:45 am
The Crusades. Really? How about something from the last 800 years. This is like blaming modern day Italians for the actions of the Roman Empire. One has nothing to do with the other. There is nothing about modern Christianity that resembles the Crusades in any way, nor has there been for nearly a millenium. This is a desperate attempt to create moral equivalency that simply does not exist.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:23 am
Doc said:
You mean like American SLAVERY or blowing up ABORTION CLINICS! I see you don’t get my point, if you stacked up the oppression done in the name of religion and non-religion “historically”, it’s a tie, that’s the point! Just because less oppression has been done in the name of Christianity in the last 150 years or so doesn’t mean we get selective amnesia while enumerating the shameful things that has been done in the name of Islam.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:42 am
One more thing about slavery, 20 million African’s were killed during the middle passage while in tow to America, all in the name of Christianity and manifest destiny. And here’s the clincher, they sang worship song’s like “Amazing Grace” while doing it, f*&%#ing hilarious!
And let’s not get started on South Africa, which is only 16 or so years removed from Apartheid. South African Bishop Desmond Tutu put it succinctly, “When white Europeans Christian’s came to Africa, they had their bible’s and we owned the land. They then said “let us pray” and when we open eyes they owned the land and we had the bibles.”
August 20th, 2008 at 8:49 am
I disagree…not “selective amnesia”. The difference between Christianity and Islam is that when “Christendom” in general gets a better grasp on what the bible teaches through personal reading and the Holy Spirit’s enlightenment, violence (like abortion clinic bombings), extremism (such as the Phred Phelps phiasco of phascists), and wrong ideologies (such as the belief that slavery is ok) DECREASE. Within Islam, on the other hand, as the people within the movement begin to listen and do what the Koran tells them to do, violence & extremism is INCREASING rather than decreasing. There is truth in the words spoken over Ishmael in the OT…his hand will be against all his brothers. There is numerous evidence in support of this.
Again, not all Muslims ascribe to violence, but MANY, MANY of them do.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Anonymous, let me quote myself again in an earlier post because you are not getting me:
I agree with you, to a point, but historically this has not been the case and Christian do get on their “moral high ground” like they no skeleton’s in the closet. So I don’t think it’s intellectually or historically honest, nor fruitful to pretend like our s&%t don’t stank!
August 20th, 2008 at 9:24 am
I get this point, and to some degree I agree with it. Evil is evil and trying to say I’m “less bad” is kind of a pathetic argument.
My problem with constantly apologizing for stupid things done by Christians is that we fail to distinguish between good ideas and those who bastardize them. As a result, we lose sight of the fact that Christianity is the best thing to ever happen to the planet.
Even if you’re an atheist, you must appreciate the advances in medicine, technology, eradication of poverty, philanthrophy, and quality of life developed in the Christian world. And despite our many problems, those countries uninfluenced by the Bible are the worst places on the planet to be, in every measurable way. We shouldn’t be embarassed by the fact that a culture that embraces biblical ethics will be better off than one that does not. Acknowledge the idiots, but lets still encourage people to embrace truth.
Finally, if we’re going to blame apartheid and slavery on Christians without acknowledging the fact that Christians destroyed those same institutions, we only tell half the story.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:32 am
This I agree with to an extent. But you can’t deny that fact that Christians are just as guilty of doing evil in the name of God as Muslims are in the name of Allah. If you don’t think this is true then you are only looking at life through narrow Christian eyes, which is the basis of the problem to begin with. Don’t be one of those people who can’t admit that the group or belief system they are apart of is just as bad as the next guy. Elitism has no place in the gospel.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Funny thing is, when I sit down with Muslim’s and atheist and get into these discussion, I find that as I own up to our Christian past and not get into this “well, we were bad, but you guys were much worse” kind of argument, it clears the air for more substantive conversation about faith.
Excellent point!
August 20th, 2008 at 9:56 am
I acknowledge the problems, but I don’t believe my belief system is just as bad as the next guy. The people involved are just as sinful and corruptable, but the ideas are far superior. Thats why I’ve given my life to them. I don’t take credit for it, because Christ, redemption, grace, and self-control are not my ideas. But it would be difficult for me to evangelize if I wasn’t convinced Jesus was better than the alternatives.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Sorry, wrong choice of words. I’m not referring to the truths in the Bible verses what’s in the Koran. I’m referencing those who walk out those truths. Outside of Christ redemption, Christians are no better then Muslims. But it sounds like you get that. So all is well.
Good discussion.
PS - I’ve never been one to say that I am 100% convinced that Christians are the only ones who will be in heaven. Truth is we really don’t know. We had this discussion already under the grace topic, but it’s applicable here as well. God can choose to save whom He wants and it’s not our place to say what choice of His is right or wrong.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Religions are by definition intolerant of other religions. Either your religious beliefs are correct or other religious beliefs are correct. There are few, if any, religions that truly believe that any religious belief will do. If you attempt to define spiritual truth, you are proposing that you are right and others are wrong. This whole argument you guys are having is a bit nonsensical, because saying your religion is more tolerant than others is like saying your poop stinks less simply because you’re used to smelling it.
Even Jesus claimed an intolerance for anything but belief in Himself. “No one comes to the Father except through me.”
If, however, you define “tolerance” as showing love to everyone regardless of their beliefs, you may have a point in your favor. But only if you can demonstrate that those who share your religious beliefs also practice that unconditional love and acceptance of everyone. Even if we are to be generous, Christians by and large do not have this reputation, which is sad.
Back to original topic, saying that not all religions are “bad” contradicts the fundamental beliefs of Christianity, if you truly believe that Christ is the only answer. It’s no wonder you got a knee-jerk reaction, however rude and uninformed it was. On the other hand, we are encourage in Romans, “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. ” Jesus said, “Blessed are the peace makers, for they shall be called sons of God.” Being peaceable is a good thing, but contradicting your beliefs should not be a requirement for living in peace. I think many Christians confuse the issues of tolerance, peace, and convictions. It is entirely possible to remain steadfast in your own beliefs while recognizing that other people are human beings worthy of love and respect in spite of the fact they don’t share your beliefs. One doesn’t require you to give up the other.
August 21st, 2008 at 12:08 am
Whoa! While we are all for discussing any kind of problems here-
let’s keep the main thing the main thing. The problem with this writer
isn’t so much the Islam vs. Christianity thing. Its the fact that they
went to the Young Professionals Group there —#1 mistake.
Than made a comment that made some zealot go baulistic and claim they
were of the devil. Great reasoning. This demonstrates perfectly the problem
with the Judah-ites. They are cult like –and in a worship fest of Judah and his father just like we all were in our distinctive MFI churches.
Its called misplaced loyalty. Attack the cult -leader -and wham you are
branded as a traitor. Cut through the swirl once again and you’ll see it
all comes from a whacky doctrine.
Ok reverse the situation and take this same person out for coffee –it is
Bell Town right? And go over some tennets of Christianity vs. Islam.
Of course that would take education, time and effort on someone’s part
but then there might not be time to line up and admire Judah’s newest
sunglasses.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
So… I’m a bit confused…
First, I don’t know many facts of the Young Professionals experience- certainly not enough to condemn it. “I do not attend this church any more because the members and Smith are insane.” Calling a group of ppl insane doesn’t seem productive, useful, or credible.
Secondly, it seems to me that there are gaps in logical reasoning. “Last Saturday I listened to Smith make a remark that Islam is a religion that only focuses on converting people and is intolerant. He then declared that Christianity is the only belief system that does not do this.” What does the pastor’s generalized statement about Islam have to do with the minority of Muslims who don’t fit it? And since when is a doctrinal statment (i.e. the Christian belief system) held responsible for the wackos in history who say they believe it but contradict it by their fanatical actions?
At the end of the day, Jesus told people to love everyone and died without ever waging war on anyone. The prophet Mohammed, well, there are differing accounts of what exactly he wanted his followers to do and these are based on different interpretations of “hadiths” regarding the Qu’ran; but he certainly was a man of war. Historically, there’s no way around it.
I don’t want to defend anyone, and I especially don’t need to defend the Church of Jesus, as though anything could destroy it. I’m just failing to see how a single statement taken out of context and a bad experience equal reason to discredit the City Church.
September 10th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
You don’t actually read the Bible, do you?
When you get a chance, pick up the Old-Testament sometime and count how many people God killed in His name. Hint: It’s a lot.
September 11th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Um, maybe you missed it but have a look around here at City Business. This is just one of many reasons to discredit the City Church.