Problems In The Charasmatic World
Posted on August 22nd, 2008 by The Reformer into the Christian Pop Culture categoryEver since I have been blogging on City Business I have always spoken out against charismatic "leaders" who use Christ as a platform to gain attention to themselves. I just can't get past the hypocrisy of preaching Jesus, who represents humility and servanthood, while intentionally trying to become rich and famous from the pulpit. Well this week I have come across a few articles about "pastors" who have been caught in some sticky situations. Todd Bentley has stepped down after cheating on his wife and is now separated from her, an Australian pastor associated with Hillsong has been caught faking cancer, and some rough rider California pastor has been arrested on attempted murder. Add these incidences to the very public divorces of Juanita Bynum and Paula White along with the Senator Grassley investigation, and I begin to wonder what God is up to these days? Now I have nothing against being rich or being a celebrity, but I wish these people would stop working under the guise of ministry to do so. If a person wants to live a large and public life, then by all means pursue that life, but please go do it in the real world and stop using a church as cover. It's shameful. Thus, I for one am glad to see God lifting the sheets on what's really going on.
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Good post Reformer,
How many times have we had critics on here yelling at us about Unity? Saying things like, “What if a Non-Christian reads this blog, they’ll never want to know about Christ if we can’t be unified”.
Well how many Christians who are closely involved in any of the above situations would say something like that now? None. And that’s because its just stupid.
Unity, Schmunity. That’s what I say.
August 26th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Couldn’t agree more! Speaking of the Bentley debacle, it’s good to note that Peter Wagner (self appointed dominist leader of the world) and his 25 leaders (handpicked by him I suppose) at first couldn’t beat it down to Florida fast enought to commission Bentley and put their stamp of approval on the Bentley-fest. Now he is
doing some pretty nifty back talkingback peddling big time to try to distance himself from the Fallen Todd.Here’s the video to the commissioning: Peter Wagner is the Colonel Sanders Guy in the Middle with the Gotee.
And here’s a link to some thoughts on his back peddling: Interesting stuff.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Ok, obviously the majority of your readers aren’t interested in problems in the Charismatic world since it’s Aug 29 and your original post was on the 22nd and RP and DeTox are the only comments…
What could be lurking underneath — Why did a Spirit-Led Christianiaty eventually morph into the Charasmatic world as we know it today from its more innocent conception in the 70’s? What went wrong to create this weird megachurch worship-fested mania that the obvious majority of the Spirit-filled Baptised-in-the-Spirit among us still support today?
Case in point, why do thousands of people flock to places like Lakeland? Why are certain Christians so hungry for this type of spectacle? Why aren’t they satisfied with daily life with God — why do they need the hype when we don’t?
Even if no one else seems to care, what do YOU think? Could some error exist on a foundational level? What inconsistencies keep cropping up? And how do we counteract that?
We need to research to get to the bottom of it. But if nobody else really wants to know, oh well — we care and maybe there’s a reason we need to know and discover.
August 29th, 2008 at 10:10 am
De-Tox - some posts just tend to be more “controversial” then others. If someone posts anything about Judah Smith it will get 100 responses, but if we talk about other goofs in the charismatic world we get very few. Not sure exactly why, but I bet the connection with Judah and the City Church hits closer to home for most. I’m betting that if we were living in the south then there would be more interest in people like Joel Osteen and Oral Roberts. Not going to let minimal comments stop me from posting about these guys though. We have to call them out for their false beliefs, cause even if no one is commenting, people are reading.
Excellent question! I have thought a lot about this myself. I think it’s just the bleed over of our celebrity obsessed culture. When most people enter a life of full-time ministry they usually have a genuine heart to serve. But after their first book becomes a best-seller, they get a 30 minute TV show, or their congregation swells to thousands of members, their head balloons. They begin to think they are more important then they really are, and because they never leave their little circle/bubble they don’t realize that there are millions of people who have no clue about them (i.e. I just met a guy at work they other day who had no clue who Rick Warren was). Factor in the mindless dummies who try to align themselves with a name for the sake of feeling important and those who refuse to speak out against “God’s anointed” and well you get what we got. A bunch of hot head, arrogant, me, me, me charismatic leaders.
I recently watched an ABC News special about our society today. Through a national survey they found that 1 out of every 3 teens polled said they would rather be a personal assistant to a celebrity, making $30,000 a year, then a doctor or lawyer making over $100,000. Their findings showed us that we are basically raising a generation that labels success as driving a Benz, being on a reality TV show and having celebrity friends. I believe this sick obsession has now found its way into mainstream churches. Christians today copy everything popular in the world, from Facebook to YouTube to music and movies to clothing. The Christian realm tries to be “hip” by taking all of the world’s ideas, slapping a fish on them, and saying this is for you. Factor in churches that run themselves like a businesses with a generation of people raised with the celebrity addiction, and you have the perfect environment for Christian show business. Everyone now wants there 15 minutes in the spotlight, including churches and the people who lead them. They market themselves like rock stars, all over the internet, in movies, TV shows, and with CD’s so as to create the look at me atmosphere. And for the reasons I talked about above, people buy into it because it means they can have their superstars without crossing over into the evil secular world.
By doing what we are doing. Calling out the stupidity of it all with our own message. I know it is a battle that will never end because for every person who gets out of the pool, 20 more diving in, but it’s still worth fighting for. The internet is a powerful tool. And I’m seeing more and more blogs, books, and radio shows working against hypocrisy in organized religion. It’s a grass-roots movement but small churches are popping up all over the place that are dedicated to preaching the Gospel alone. I just continue to pray for change and hope that God continues to reveal the falsity behind these people.
August 29th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Thanks for your thoughtful reply Reformer. I’m going to link this topic to our blog . We were just talking today that we realize we don’t need to detox from our former church world anymore–that we’ve been done with that for quite awhile now– but we are now detoxing from the religious system so prevalent today. (Side note: Some folks think they don’t need to detox. but for those who do acknowledge the need, the only way to really detox is free yourself from the religious system completely. Then slowly add back in the spiritual activities that help you stay close to the real Jesus like authentic prayer (which is not yelling unless you get frustrated with God and need to yell), authentic individual worship of your personal Savior, attending church when you have the
stomach for itneed for it, etc.)Yes, you are absolutely right and we can get the word out one post at a time, or to one person at a time. Like you said it’s a grass roots effort springing up all over the place!
Or saying “This IS you” and then when you don’t buy the t-shirt you are considered odd and they look at you like you are from mars. But that’s ok, we are used to the shunning by now.
And we are here to say it’s wrong, it’s wacko and we no longer want to be a part of that.
But THIS, yes we do want to be part of the authentic Jesus church!
August 29th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
is detox whining that his response post didnt get comments??????
August 29th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Small churches can be just as messed up as mega churches. I have been in both.
What rubs me the wrong way at this point is all the marketing. Everything and everyone is marketed. This is followed by thinking that bigger and grander is always better. Bigger can happen because of better and grander can be a reflection of quality work. The problem is that churches work to become like the big church and have a more difficult time becoming who God wants them to be. Then, we end up with a bunch of copy cat churches. After Doug Fields wrote Purpose Driven Youth Ministry tons of youth groups all created purpose statements. Almost exactly the same statement for most of them. I have heard Doug Fields joke about it and say that thousands of the same missions statements was not his goal.
When I was on staff at the MFI church, it was funny that at times we would make decisions based on What Would Dick/Frank/Wendell Do. Or more often, Dick/Frank/Wendell would not do that so we shouldn’t. At times, we seemed to sacrifice our principles or ideas to be more like the big churches rather than more of what God had us to be.
The other funny thing is that the places in the world that are truly growing are built on spreading leadership, not hording it all in a few people. I know of a few churches that “franchise” church plant. They do very well because they are always building new layers of leadership to send out. They allow the church to remain more local because if they have a group of folks who live 30 mins from the church and they have a leader, then they put a church in that community. Real change happens life on life. Sermons and worship are great, but it takes deep relationship and commitment to others to see great transformation. IMO.
August 30th, 2008 at 10:21 am
“Unity, Schmunity?” “glad to see God lifting the sheets?”
Come on, Christians. No one wants to see anyone who names the name of Jesus go down before the world. This is not God’s will, but the enemy’s.
John 17:21–”that they would be one, even as you Father are in me, and I in you…that the world may believe that you sent me.”
And Galatians 6:1–”Brethren, if any one is caught in a trespass, let you who are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, taking heed unto yourselves, lest you also be tempted.”
There are problems in the Charismatic world because there were problems in the wilderness at the time of Moses. Christ, our Passover, certainly delivers us from the bondage of Egypt (sin, the world), but we soon find ourselves not in the Promised Land as we expected, but in the desert, following a cloud and a pillar of fire, eating only manna, longing for leeks, onions, and quail. Blanket forgiveness of sin is the result of the slaying of the Lamb and applying His precious blood to our doorways. Renewing of the mind is the result of living by the word of God, symbolized by manna, and ever seeking the Spirit, day and night (symbolized by the pillar of cloud and fire). This is the aim of the wilderness experience, corresponding to the feast of Pentecost and also the giving of the fiery Law, administered angelically for the purpose of exposing sin. The Old Testament types have much to say about the Church as she prepares for her bridegroom’s return.
August 30th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
I tend to think that the megachurch/celebrity/rock star culture of contemporary American evangelicalism won’t last much longer. Worldwide energy and resource constraints, combined with a crashing national economy may well snap us all back to reality fairly soon. It won’t be the sort of problem that can be “named and claimed” away! I think that on every level we are headed back to a simpler, more local way of life.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Watch, it Living Life, your
ignorancebenightedness is showing.No I’m not whining. I was simply noticing that people don’t seem to show interest in what’s wrong with the Charasmatic world at large.
Apparently, Living Life, you didn’t take time to read past my first paragraph or you would have seen that. Maybe you aren’t into asking questions or researching answers or even reading for that matter. That’s fine — it’s your life you are living.
If you choose not to read through a post, maybe you could also choose to refrain from insinuating the poster is whining when you don’t even bother to read and understand what the person wrote.
August 30th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
That actually sounds really hopeful even if it’s difficulty that will take us there! Simple faith, simple relationship, no more meetings to learn how to have meetings. No more shouting preachers with all the answers and a word from God about our finances. Learning to think for ourselves.
Less is more, what a concept!
August 30th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
true, nick, however, when someone names the name of Christ and then preaches another gospel and (1) their peers all pat them on the back and (2) their followers all give them more money and (3) those who even gently try to bring correction are told to maintain unity and not touch the Lord’s anointed… well, then there’s a problem. Probably because Gal 6:1 is not given a chance to work.
September 1st, 2008 at 6:12 pm
This is a good apology for the charismatic movement. I’ve seen teachings and heard messages form this guy. He’s a legitimate Christ-centered leader.
September 1st, 2008 at 6:13 pm
hmm. it won’t show the link for some reason. well here it is
http://www.dutchsheets.org/index.cfm
September 1st, 2008 at 9:18 pm
That article is pretty incredible. It repeats quite of bit from this blog.
October 17th, 2008 at 5:00 am
I love your blog! Just the reading I need
October 19th, 2008 at 7:59 am
reformer said: Their findings showed us that we are basically raising a generation that labels success as driving a Benz, being on a reality TV show and having celebrity friends. I believe this sick obsession has now found its way into mainstream churches. Christians today copy everything popular in the world, from Facebook to YouTube to music and movies to clothing. The Christian realm tries to be “hip” by taking all of the world’s ideas, slapping a fish on them, and saying this is for you. Factor in churches that run themselves like a businesses with a generation of people raised with the celebrity addiction, and you have the perfect environment for Christian show business. Everyone now wants there 15 minutes in the spotlight, including churches and the people who lead them. They market themselves like rock stars, all over the internet, in movies, TV shows, and with CD’s so as to create the look at me atmosphere. And for the reasons I talked about above, people buy into it because it means they can have their superstars without crossing over into the evil secular world.
Excellent comment reformer! You absolutely nailed it! I thought trying to “be in the world but not of it” was hard but “being in the church and not of it” is a million times harder.
Another thing that is hard is looking back at my youth (getting saved at nineteen) only to be brainwashed and abused at the hands of pastors and Christians that I trusted to show me how to live a better life. Oh yes about now someone should come back and tell me I should have had my eyes on Jesus instead of people but as a young impressionable person that had never been in church in my life I was ready to throw my old life away and live for God.
I feel sorry for all of those young people that are being destroyed by churches promoting this kind of lifestyle as following Christ. I’ts just sad to think of all of the damaged people these churches are cranking out, sometimes taking years or the rest of their lives to recover.
October 19th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
L & T, you described exactly what I went through. I’m now going through a process of deconstruction.
As for saying, “Dont focus on people, focus on Jesus” — that is a very unrealistic and naive statement. I have heard this many times too. Its usually the same phrase repeated by naive, docile believers that repeat every cliche they hear without thinking through it. You cannot ignore everything and pretend.
If thats how it works then I can easily make a case for not attending church but focusing on Jesus at home. What would then be the purpose of church or being with other people? People influence each other. And submitting to the wrong authority will affect you.
A church or authority does not have to be perfect or fit our ideals but there are certain lines that should be drawn.
November 6th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
And then he turns around and has a conference where the Spirit of Moses is to be released to the nation… and some other kooky stuff…Give me a break…..
He’s a legitimate Christ-centered leader. ??????
He is still in the deception of Third Wave, Dominion, Latter Rain theology. And taking the sheep in a man-made-vain-imagination-self-centered direction based on scripture taken out of context to support what he teaches and operates in.
I am sorry, but I don’t believe that teaching things extra biblical, non-biblical and of unsound doctrine necessarily makes a man Christ centered and in fact I would ask which Christ is he preaching/teaching.
November 6th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I have read some of his books and there is always little or no biblical base.
It is mostly extrabiblical, emotionalism and hype. His writings are very self-centered and some are even pagan ideas and philosophies.
November 10th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
And have you read his recent letter to the church regarding the election of President Elect Obama. He blames the church!
My response:
Someone must be spiking his lattes……what a deluded imagination. Gee I was relieved when he gave the ‘disclaimer’ of not being infallible.
“Was what happened Tuesday God’s will? I am quite confident it was not.”
He has a small idea of the God of Scripture who to him is a hand wringing wimp on high. That god is not worthy of anyone’s worship as it is an idol.
“Judgment Will Increase: I am not hoping for judgment; I am saying it is inevitable.”
How does he know that? Is he omniscient? What a contradiction……he just passed judgment by bring a verdict of guilt before God ,violating Matt. 7:1 While the church is instructed not to judge (pass a verdict reserved for The Judge) it is instructed to be discerning; these are not the same thing and often confused.
“What Can We Expect? What are some of the judgments we can expect on our nation from this election?”
He offers nothing gut a logical continuation of what has already been….no special insight here.
‘How did this happen? But please be careful with this. Too much emphasis on God’s sovereignty and we’re worthless; too little and we’re hopeless. Maybe we should say, ‘we lost a critical battle but God
will give us strategy to win the war.’ Then find the strategy.”
There seems to be a Patonic dualism to his theology……..cosmic struggle of good/evil. “We” lost a critical battle? Perhaps it was not ours to win? Perhaps this historical event, as will all others, is actually perfectly in line with God’s global redemptive plan and the end times which will unfold as scripture affirms.
“For God and this great nation, Dutch Sheets”
Wow, to dogmatically insist that he is God’s spokesman to me and all others is, creepy.
Thanks, Dutch, for offering me your pearls of wisdom, but I’ll pass.
November 10th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
IWTT! You totally get what we’ve been trying to say all along! Thank you!
Actually his voice has always been the saner one of the NAR - he has moments of clarity but the roots of what he’s in clouds his thinking. Like my good friend said we always liked his starched white shirts and regular Joe looks, but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s been mentored by C. P. Wagner and is strangely loyal to that tribe, so it makes him one of them.
November 10th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
How convenient to blame the Christians for not praying enough and to blame God bringing judgment on our land. I thought the outcome of the election Tuesday was America’s way of firing the Republican Party for screwing it up so bad in the last 8 years. I thought it was because more people than not are ready for a little eloquence and felt Obama was the better man for the job.
I think what it is, if anything spiritual at all, is a wake up call to the extreme far right intercessory types that they can’t control the nation and God with their prayers. Not that the rest of us aren’t supposed to pray but isn’t the Church acting a little like spoiled children who aren’t getting their way? Not to minimize the importance of electing a president, but I can’t help but think of 2 football teams praying for a win. There’s only one winner but God is into both sides. He is certainly not partisan.
IF this were a time of judgment, wouldn’t it be due to what the Properity Preachers and Domionists are doing to wreck the faith of the American people by making money a higher priority than the Gospel itself–instead of representing the Kingdom of God for what it really is? Dutch is strangely silent on that point. Perhaps it’s because he has a slew of conference queens that run to Colorado every time he opens his doors for another call to the Ark so he has a hand in enabling the money making mega system.
November 10th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Thanks for sharing that. I found it very confusing. Especially his laundry list of things to come.
If this is to be evidence of the wrong president being elected then I’m going to have to look back on the events of 2000-2008…. yup, all that already happened.
November 10th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Brian K
I agree and I haven’t really found one in that fringe of charismatic belief that has made any sense yet. Read the ElijaList “words” and I think you will see that most of the time there is a “confusion” that comes from these people. I think it is part of the “deceptive” language and topics that are given. I haven’t read much in the way of real logic and sense when I read these guys and gals. Very strange at times.
November 10th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Thanks, it has taken a while for me to get a clarity of what this is all about. As one who was in it for a while, it has taken a few years to get my head straight and have an idea/understanding of the stuff.
I am thankful to many blog sites such as this one that have helped me tremendously.
November 10th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Disease and death… hmmm… I get the idea that Satan is responsible but ultimately isn’t it mankind for being disobedient in teh graden? Let’s not take any responsibility for our sin.
Natural disasters… you know, in these days we have so many ways of knowing when a disaster has hit, like way more of those richter scales that cam tell when there is an earthquack than there were say 50 or 75 years ago. I don’t think there are anymore each year than there were the year before. We just know when they happen now because of technicological advancements in the machinery we use to warn us. So just because ther have been these disasters, when all of a sudden did they become acts of God for judgement etc? Know what I mean….
November 10th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I did not read the letter.
A few things are troubling to me.
First is that in the OT nations were usually punished because of what “God’s people” were or were not doing. So, we should not be pointing our fingers at “the election”, the democrats, the republicans but ourselves.
Second, where can I find the “holiness” of capitalism, low taxes and political liberty? Nothing wrong with these things, but they are not particularly Christian or part of God’s plan. You would think that Jesus, Moses and Elijah all preached about these things.
The last one i will mention now is that Jesus is the Jesus of the world, not for the USA. Our future is not dependent on Obama, McCain, Bush or whoever. While we all love our comforts, I know I do. If God loves our Christian brothers Kenya, Nigeria, Paraguay, Myanmar, Vietnam and North Korea as much as he loves us then both He and we will be fine no matter what happens with elections, the economy or the laws/legislature/judges.
November 10th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Hi IWTT! I thought I recognized you from other places — so I know what IWTT stands for!
I haven’t mentioned this on any other blog, but this audience will appreciate the irony:
So the zealots are upset because we didn’t elect a priest for a president while all the time they are happy to appoint CEO’s as pastors.
November 10th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
It seems to me as I read John 3:17-18, that judgement comes from not believing in Jesus. “God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.”
Jesus wept over Jersusalem because they had rejected Him! It didn’t have anything to do with the political leadership. The people cried out for Barabbas instead of Jesus. (Luke 23:18) McCain vs. Obama doesn’t = Jesus vs. Barabbas, that is ridiculous. McCain’s history is that of a hard drinking, womanizing fighter pilot who divorced his wife. Take away the fighter pilot part, and you’d have a list of leaders in the American church.
A Christian disciple has his marching orders in Matthew 28:19-20. Politics does not get a mention. It is about “all the nations”, not just America. It is about doing what Jesus told us to do, not voting a straight zealot ticket during an election.
November 10th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I was WONDERING what it stands for earlier today! Care to enlighten us IWTT or Anna?
SO true so true! Isn’t it ironic!
November 11th, 2008 at 3:18 am
I find it highly interesting that Christians CONTINUE to attempt to manipulate and bring about an earthly kingdom of God on earth (hey, the Catholic Church tried and failed too) when Jesus PLAINLY says that His kingdom isn’t of this world. We aren’t “of this world” either. We’re told that we are “in the world, but not of it”.
I voted my conscience…which was AGAINST the liberal policies of Obama, but my vote was not FOR McCain since he’s a man who lacks integrity, in my opinion. The vote went the way it WENT. Christians prayed, God allowed things to proceed as they did. Just because the person we (speaking for the conservative Christians) did NOT want to see elected was elected doesn’t mean God’s will was not accomplished, though. His WILL be done, on earth as it is in heaven. See, ultimately the earth is the Lord’s. Everything that takes place, good or bad, also ultimately serves His purpose. Anything satan intends for evil, God doesn’t waste but turns it around for good (He’s the ultimate recycler!).
*****
The bible also warns of a falling away in the last days, and an increase in violence. Increase in earthquakes, famines. Horrible stuff, but for this literalist (I believe Jesus IS coming back again) this stuff is SUPPOSED to happen and we keep trying to postpone the inevitable because we want things safe and cozy (who doesn’t, really?) Still, does God somehow love the persecuted church in North Korea any LESS than He does us? They’re living their own “last days” scenario and trusting Him in the midst of it. Would the American church be able to do the same?
Sorry for rambling…it’s really hard to articulate the thoughts going through my head right now. Bottom line, God will bring about HIS will. When we pray, God will DO IT if we pray in accordance with His will. I choose to believe in a sovereign God who was not surprised or disappointed by this election. He’s not beating His church over the head saying, “You didn’t pray enough! You didn’t do enough!” For better or worse (for America), Obama is God’s man for the job for the next 4 years and we would do well to pray for him.
We would do well to be building the INVISIBLE kingdom of believers first by being His witnesses and let GOD bring the earth around in His time, whenever that is and no matter how many trials and “birth pangs” this world goes through before Christ returns.
November 11th, 2008 at 7:20 am
Exactly, the earth is His and everything and everyone is His and He will put whom He wants in authority to accomplish His purpose. We see in a mirror dimly and we do not understand all of His ways. We know what the Book says but how that all happens is not shown to us. So, what does the scriptures say we must do for and about our leaders?
Multiple choice..
1) Pray for them
2) Give our taxes to whom it is due.
3) Obey them to a certain level
4) Speak Highly of them
5) All of the above
The choice has been made by the majority and the majority are those in the world, (there are more of them you know than Christians) and now we live with what comes down the road with this next residential term. Prayer seems to be a really important part of this period and we must pray in the will of God.
This is what I was trying to say above. Actually I heard a scientist (Cristian) say that the erathquacks don’t actually increase, we just know when they happened more because there are more of those units out there that are able to tells us when one (earthquake) has occured. Something like 100+ where out there just a few years ago and now there are 400+ plus all over the world. My numbers are not accurate but that was the idea that the scientist gave. So now we are aware of more of them because of that, not because there are more.
AMEN
AMEN AGAIN
Ok IWTT stands for IWanthetruth… That’s what I was seeking from the Lord and He has been true to His word and teaching me…. I don’t always get it right but thank the Kord for those around me who are able to articulate the truth and thank the Holy Spirit for showing me the truth. It is time to put reason to faith!!!
November 11th, 2008 at 7:22 am
Sorry for all of the typos.. I am trying to get this all typed in before I have to leave for work in the next 5 minutes.
Blessings all
IWTT
November 11th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Finally, rational heads prevail. Really good points you all. I’m sensing a theme hear that those on the far right haven’t seemed to grasp…GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL. Wish more people would get this.
On another note, all the Obama haters have been awfully quiet here at City Business since November 4th. If McCain had won I am sure we would be hearing from all of them. Funny how that works.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Of course, they won… I just recieved this in my e-mail. Thought you’d all enjoy it.
November 13th, 2008 at 1:21 am
Thanks for sharing the letter IWTT — and your name meaning! I love it! Let truth rise - let it prevail - We are so done surpressing the truth to justify all the dysfunction (even though I heard someone say today that ‘dysfunctional is the new normal’). Gonna print out the Chuck Norris letter and read it later when I can keep my eyes open! So to be cont…
November 13th, 2008 at 11:59 am
IWanthetruth is exactly what I prayed to the Lord as I was dealing with the RED FLAG I got three years ago regarding Purpose Driven Model Church, IHOP, Bridal Paradigm teaching, Prosperity Gospel and many other branches of teaching from the church I attended.
I felt that the gospel had been weaken, and I was not the only one who thought so, as I found out later. I am one who believes that gifts are for today but they are not the main issue, Jesus IS! I have even had an experience of a tongue with interpretation that I believe fits the Acts 2 model, but again, and I will say it again, the gifts are not the focus, neither is the Holy Spirit, but Jesus Christ of Nazereth and his atoning act and resurrection are. The Good news, the Gospel.
I am a charismatic or maybe better term is a double soft-cessationist that believes in reformed theology. I love Jesus with all of my HEART, MIND and STRENGTH, but I also believe there must be reason to my faith and not fringe penetcostal third wave, dominion, joels army, etc. unsound doctrine.
Truthfully, I find that the teachings I recieved as a young Christian 40+ years ago are still foundational in my life and I thank the Lord, I thank the Lord, I thank the Lord, that He has brought them back to me. He is faithful!
Blessings
IWTT
November 13th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
IWTT, It’s like I could have written your comment there.. isn’t the Lord wonderful how He reveals these things to us!
November 13th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
IWTT we also welcome you here! Its so good to know and hear from
like minded people and it gives us hope that some out there are getting it.
Have you read any of Andrew Stroud’s books lately like
“Why I left the Prophetic Prayer Movement” –it is excellent and yes he still
believes in revival and all sound teaching but he gives an insiders view
to the Bridal thing and why its off as he lived it there in Kansas City.
Keep writing –your insights are great to read from a like minded
believer
November 14th, 2008 at 4:29 am
I feel like *I* could have written your comment too. I’m leaning more towards reformed theology as well, and I DO believe the gifts are for today and have experienced powerful moves of the Spirit personally, but they ARE NOT the main focus and never should be. I wish there were Calvary Chapels near us. Out of all the Charismatic churches, I’ve found them to be the most balanced when it comes to SOLID teaching on the word with the gifts secondary to knowing Christ. We’re still looking and may have to settle for a non-Charismatic church. So many of the ones around us are sensationalistic and more feelings-led than Word-led. We tried to go back to our old church for awhile, but it just didn’t work.
Towards the end of my family’s “time” at an MFI church, we simply continued to feel more and more like we didn’t belong. All aspects….prayer, worship, fellowship and even some of the sermons… ceased to have any relevance to where we were in our walk.
PRAYER: Prayers offered up by whoever was at the podium were screaming exercises to me and I found myself wondering….is God deaf? (my hubby even passed me a note during prayer asking this same question). We in the congregation could not concentrate to pray in our groups as we were told to do like good sheep, uncomfortably holding hands with the other strangers, so we all just obediently stood in our circles looking at our feet mumbling under our collective breaths while the person on the podium continued on screaming into the mic more like one of the flagellating prophets of Baal than a servant of the Lord.
WORSHIP: Only what is current with the occasion “oldie” from around 2004. Team typically jumps up and down and tells everyone who is just sort of standing there (perhaps attempting to actually enter into worship) to clap, “come on give Him a praise in here” (which means to whoop whether you feel like it or not). If they ever wonder why the vast majority of the church doesn’t “enter in”, it may be in part because a congregation won’t follow where they’re not actually lead. It may be in part due to the fact that manipulating people into “worship” by making them yell or clap or dance is not real worship, necessarily. It may also be that some of the old powerful hymns of the faith might be a refreshing cold cup of water to people adrift in a dry sea of meaningless hype.
FELLOWSHIP: Completely contingent upon how connected in the church ministry you are, how emotionally healthy you are, or how wealthy you are. If you’ve ever struggled through depression or some other crisis (as I have) and have ever questioned some teaching or methodology (as we both have), you are instantly suspect and given a wide berth. To the end of our time at this church, we just came and went. I didn’t even bother to try to talk to anyone any more. Have we gotten phone call one to see how we’re doing? Perhaps an email? Nope. I dared to have a personal problem and also dared to question leadership so I am now anathema. It IS, however, very noticeable that if a wealthy business-person starts attending the church, the hand of fellowship is quickly extended and they are given “words” and “anointing” for financial leadership, blessing, and ministry. Some are even made elders even if they’ve only been saved for a few years.
SERMONS: Actually good in many cases. Some renewed messages on grace, some just good stuff for daily living. The grace was short-lived, however, and an emphasis on works brought back after awhile. The over-all ignorance of the congregation regarding the bible, however, is appalling. Especially among the youth. I could probably count on ONE HAND the number of young folks who could even begin to give an account for the hope that lies within them beyond “I got saved. God is awesome. I have an awesome church and I love my pastor. ” (not that there’s not validity to their salvation, but they’ve never gone into the Word with any depth to explore the riches of Christ and to share that with others). I worry that their relationship with God is completely tied in to their church. If they didn’t get the emotional “Fix” of the church experience, would they have enough foundation in Christ to be able to keep on with Him?
*****
I guess for me the pain is still too raw. I really miss the fellowship that I *THOUGHT* I had, but I really am just missing the memory of something I never really had. The only friends I still have from my many years at the church are those that ended up leaving for various reasons before I did.
My walk with the Lord, however, is stronger than it ever has been. He is really enough…whether I ever set foot in another church again or not. It’s only by His grace that I’m still seeking Him in the first place.
Still, it’d be great to find a place to put down roots again instead of being perpetual visitors.
November 14th, 2008 at 4:57 am
HOw I wish I could sit down and talk to you both because your comments ring close to my very own experiences..I am so relieved that i am not the only one.. so relieved!
I currently don’t go to church.. I might once month.. but what is the purpose when they are all bouncing, clapping and manipulating and not digging deep into what the body of Christ should be like.. its very depressing to not find REalness.. it’s all so wishy washy, watered down nonsence to me..
I hear you on the eldership thing.. we had people who were only in the church after two weeks and were given the eldership title.. hmm because they performed really well, they clapped the loudests, bounced, and were heavy into ’spiritual’ things.. man just give me Jesus.. that’s all I need.. not.. all the crazyness.
I am in south africa and i havn’t found many like minded here… it’s a lonely walk but it brings you closer to God and that is the best part!
November 14th, 2008 at 7:30 am
Are most of you that are responding in Africa? It seems that our hours of comments are really different. I am in Oregon and I must be asleep when the rest are awake.
Wow a lot said here and all very good and true and so much likeness in everyones story that I have blogged with that have left the extreme side of charismatic/pentecostalism.
One of the 50 pastors/staffers from my old church, as I understand it, came out of a MFI group that had it’s beginnings here in Portland, Oregon. He goes back about two times a year to Africa/England to preach and visit all of those that he knows. It was his remarks, but not just him, that got me really saying, “WHAT!?” As I and another person were questioning the “Bridal Paradigm” teaching that is when I found out about the Latter Rain Theology. The other person didn’t see anything wrong in it. I decided to ask if the pastor would kind of mediate this discussion which he did. He did support my fellings and research about Latter Rain but then he said, “I am a pragmatic thinker, I can find God in anything or teaching.” and then he went on from there. But at this point I got what the problem really was. It didn’t matter what the teaching was or the theology of that teaching, what he was really telling me was that he was mature enough to throw the bad out, you’ve heard it before, “chew the meat, spit out the bones” or “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water”, but the problem with that is if you bring bad teaching into a body of believers and don’t come along afterwards and show the error portions (which they never did) then the leaven WILL leaven the whole lump, in this case the believers, and it will take root and become a wrong theology. That is what I saw was happening to the church and it was so engrained that for me to bring it up and question it was being divisive and not in unity. Seems like the same old arguement everywhere.
We have a Calvary Chapel here that I have gone to a few times. I enjoy their sermons a great deal and I listen to a national radio station CSN (Christian Satelitte Network) that has teachings all day long from different Calvary Churches in the USA. The problem that I have with many of them is the standard issue and difference between orthodix churches and charismatic/pentecostal churches and that is reformed theology vs Arminism. But that is a different discussion.
Your description of church service is very common in those types of churches.
Currently, what I have noticed in my own walk is that God allowed me to go to the far right of the pendulum to the far left and now I am beginning to settle where he wants me to on the journey that I have been on. I was involved in Delevrience Ministries, Prophetic Worship Ministry, Purpose Driven Life Ministry, all of the sides of the fringe, but I thank God, that in His mercy, He showed me the truth and has done and doing a marvelous work in myself and family. I have a son in law who is a licensed pastor from a pentecostal denomination who is seeing the truth and a few friends from my old church that are beginning to research after some minor discussions with them. God is good!
Please excuse any typos, Gotta go to work, will write more during my break times.
Blessings
November 14th, 2008 at 7:55 am
I’m on the east Coast US. I get up early, so that would explain why you’re still asleep!
I understand where you’re coming from, but since I’m LEANING towards reformed but not fully “there”, Arminianism/vs Calvinism isn’t that huge a deal for me in that I still see both sides of the coin.
November 14th, 2008 at 8:42 am
This is exactly where we are finding ourselves. And we keep having to reiterate to those who insinuate we’ve ‘thrown the baby out with the bath’ that we arent doing THAT - we still believe in it all, we are just speaking out against how many of those in the prophetic movement have used it and twisted it and made it a travesty. you state it perfectly here! Have you read Andrew Strom’s books - he explains all of this and he came out of that whole world over there (the NAR epicenter). His voice has been a great help in separating out what’s real and what should be left by the wayside.
It is a comfort that the foundation isn’t shaken even though everything else that needs to be shaken, is. Those of us who have been led by the Holy Spirit out of the latter rain dominionist churches here are finding that we are closer to the Holy Spirit now that we can hear him without all the periferal fluff. We are free to pick up where we left off with the Jesus of our salvation and at last get to the business of sharing him authentically with people when the HS opens the doors to do so.
But it has been a ‘journey’ to say in the least and we feel like we are swimming upstream most of the time. It’s great to hear your voice IWTT - sounds like we’re swimming in the same direction. There is hope for us. Keep it coming!
November 14th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Sorry Freedom to Run Away! I didn’t realize you already mentioned the books!
November 14th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Thanks for everyones kind responses. I have not read Andrews book as of yet though I am a member of his web site/blog. I have blogged on another site and recently we had an interview with Andrew and the moderators of the blog. It was great. I will see if it is still there and link it. It was originally on a Wordpress blog site but since then the moderators opened up their own web site and shut down the wordpress.
I understand, to me it isn’t really the essentials of salvation. I have been trying to understand the soveriegnty of God and Arminianism seems to ellude to the fact that we actually make the choice, which we do, but there is something about the regeneration process and salvation being a gift from God and our inability to accept that gift without His move (regeneration) in our lives. (TULIP) I have been trying to just understand it all and how the two theologies affact the presenting of the Good News if it does at all. The other area is Semi-Plegiaism which seems to be the foundation of the seeker sensitive model of presenting the gospel. It’s all very interesting and a good study to to understand what they mean. It’s good to know what I believe and why I believe. It’s adding “reason” to the faith and belief.
But all that to say, I really do enjoy Calvary teaching and unless another brother ends up starting a church here we will probably attend Calvary.
Blessings all
November 14th, 2008 at 11:59 am
What you all seem to be talking about I call the “cashing your Christian check syndrome.” What does it look like?
Well for those of us who’ve spent any number of years in a church, we believe (often because that’s what we are told) that our “time” will come. So while we play the waiting game for God’s glorious appointment we spend month after month being good little faithful Christians. We go to church events and services on a regular basis, sometimes 3 or 4 day s a week. We take countless notes and read dozens of books. We tithe 10% or more every month. We join prayer groups, discipleship groups, bible study groups, small groups, book club groups; basically any and every kind of church group there is. We go to winter retreats, summer camps, and bi-yearly conferences. We get involved with mens/womens/youth/college/outreach/worship ministries. We take a yearly missions trip. We host and attend countless wedding and baby showers, birthday parties, and other social events, sometimes for people we don’t really like because its the “Christian” thing to do. We stay humble and meek. Men become soft and women become doormats. We play the political game, trying to avoid conflict and argument with things we disagree with. We shy away from worldly things: no R rated movies, no secular music or books, no revealing clothing, no alcohol or tobacco, no foul language, and very limited non-Christian friends. By all outside appearances we are the model Christian citizen and we are slowly climbing what I like to call, “the spiritual ladder of success.” But as we personally know, we are still as empty and corrupt as the day before we got saved. Although our outside is all cleaned up, our inside is wasting away and in desperate need of rescue. This causes us to further dive into all things Christianize. We pray even harder. We read even more. We stretch ourselves in ministry even greater. Over time we become prideful and arrogant out our good works for the church. Then we finally believe our time has come. We go to cash that Christian check hoping to withdraw the funds of godly success that we have stockpiled in God’s church for so many years. But guess what? It comes back insufficient funds. The account is still as empty as they day we gave our lives to Christ. This causes utter panic. We go into a tailspin. We start asking questions. We slowly back away from the involvement. We start to see the hypocrisy. We begin to feel like an outsider. Soon, friends disappear. Pastors and leaders stop calling. Some even loose their spouse and/or children. The end result is anger, frustration, and a desire to completely walk away.
So this is why this blog was created and why it continues on today. Here we can point out the fault in this kind of overly spiritual, works-based, wrong living. To bring to light the darkness of corruption and manipulation pouring out of so many churches. Sure there are haters who don’t understand, but that’s because they haven’t tried cashing their checks yet. And some never will. But there are plenty who have, and it is apparent in reading the above comments that many of you are facing this struggle today. All over the world there are churches that have to change. So let that be our rally cry. Wherever you are located, make an effort to influence others to make a change. No matter the criticism, name calling, or anger you face, stand up and fight back against these places.
November 14th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
The reformer,
Thanks for that statement. There is one thing that I have not yet expressed to you all since I left the junk, and focused more on Christ and His word……. FREEDOM!
It has been amazing how much freedom I feel in Christ since I got out of all the “must do” or you are failing in your walk. What condemnation that has been heaped on us by our own.
Comes down to what is success in the churches eyes. NUMBERS? MINISTRY? Yep.
November 14th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
I have to agree that I feel a great sense of freedom in the Lord as well. Sometimes, though, I have to be honest and ask myself if I really WANT to be free. I struggle at times with missing relationships and people from the church. I miss the comfort of the “familiar”.
When I consider the alternative, however (which is to go through the motions acting like someone I’m not in order to please man and sit under teaching that I firmly believe to be unbiblical in many respects), I remember that is was for FREEDOM Christ set us free and I’m SO thankful for being out from under the bondage.
November 14th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Wow could it be the Lord has been shaking things up out there? I see a common thread for all of us who finally couldn’t stand what was not real any longer and ’stepped away from the building’ and started to see Christ again!
I relate to everything those of you shared! Its not easy to leave it all behind but didn’t we ask the Lord to give us truth at some point in this wack-world? Well He did and believe me I didn’t know how uncomfortable it was going to get to re-find Jesus!
It disheartening to find out that all that ‘activity’ and spiritual climbing that
Reformer refers to leaves you dry. When I left and found a real fellowship of people who like the Word more than sensationalism, I was amazed to find out my faith that I felt was on the level of P.H.D. was about as worthless as an online degree. Oh I was an expert alright, but in spiritual wierdness!
I too found out I was in a Latter Rain Church. Why don’t they put it on the building, in the bulletin or bylaws? Is there something to hide? No, I had to read and research and blog and look things up to even find out what it means and how I landed so far from the truth and reality at times too. My entire faith has had to be restored using truth as the weapon to blast all the foolishness that was added onto my original faith.
I now understand why the warning to those who add onto the Gospel is so severe. I found out the hard way it can almost wre