Thus Saith Maestro
Posted on September 1st, 2008 by Reformed Pope into the Why We Blog, Conferences category
Here is a picture I found on flickr. The caption to this photo said:
Pastor Donna playing a violin prophetically over Pastor Joel
Now, I'm going to jump to a few conclusions here, and would love if someone who was there could actually clarify…but…
If you ever need proof that these "Conferences" and "Churches" are nothing but hype, see the above caption. How in the hell do you "play a violin prophetically"? What was the violin saying? Was there someone to interpret the Violin Prophet? Do these people even know what the word Prophetic means?
And look at the picture of the Pastor, sitting there as though King David were anointing his head with Holy Oil…it's a violin buddy…it's just music…its emotion…it's all hype. I'm sure it was a beautiful song…but I'm curious what it told him?
Here is my guess to how that all went:
Violin Prophet: Hum, hum, hum, hum…hum, hum…
Pastor Joel: Yes Lord.
Violin Prophet: Hum, hum, hum, hum…HUM!!! HUM!!! HUM!!!! (crowd screams wildly)
Pastor Joel: (Raising hands above his head) Thank you Jesus! I receive this word.
Violin Prophet: Hum, hum, hum, hum. (Pastor Joel begins to cry, Violin is placed back in its case).
The End
Give me a break.
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September 1st, 2008 at 7:55 pm
From what I’ve seen and experienced playing an instrument prophetically means playing sans music sheets or earthly direction as you feel led. It ushers in the presence of God, a la the psalms of King David portray. Whoever is listening may feel more aware of the Lord, or be more inclined to listen to what He is saying. There’s no real formula it’s just people enjoying the Lord and His presence.
September 1st, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Exactly. Why not just say that? It ends up being hype.
We all know what “playing prophetically” is. The point RP made is that jamming is not prophetic. It might be spirit led, but it is overstatement to call it prophetic. I understand that this picture is not from an official CBC webpage but the idea of seeing the prophetic everywhere is pervasive. I have a friend who sees almost all of his insights as prophetic. I almost laugh because he has been a great salesman for decades, going back to before he was a christian. How did he do it? He has great insight into people and their behaviors. I believe, God has gifted him with people, but it is not always prophetic.
September 2nd, 2008 at 6:40 am
A relevant passage of scripture regarding this topic might be 1 Sa 16:23
And so it was, whenever the spirit from God was upon Saul, that David would take a harp and play it with his hand. Then Saul would become refreshed and well, and the distressing spirit would depart from him.
Although directly this verse might actualy support casting out of evil spirtis via a musical instrument. (Go ahead and have your fun with that one.)
One could biblicaly say that the Lord can use a gifted musician to minister by the spirit to another apart from there being lyrics.
Yeah the subtitles language is a bit weird, but why tear the whole thing apart? What was going on in the picture might not be hype, it could be the Lord and we should not be so quick to make fun of or mock what the Lord might do.
If we had a picture of King David dancing and leaping before the Lord, and someone put their own subtittles under it that were off, would we respond in the same way?
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:52 am
Yes. But one could not say that the music was moving in the prophetic. That’s just silly. Music isn’t prophetic.
September 2nd, 2008 at 8:49 am
who is “pastor” joel? He looks kinda dorky in the photo
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:16 am
Pastor Joel is Joel Stockstill from Bethany World Prayer Center in Louisiana. He is the youth pastor there, and and his brother Jonathan is a worship leader. They are popular conference speakers at The City Church. Joel Stockstill recently lost his wife to cancer.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:35 am
How do you know that music is not prophetic? From what Jeremiah is saying it sounds like it is. Don’t be so quick to throw out the baby with the bath water.
If someone could take a harp and play it every time the evil spirit from God was terrorizing me, and I would be refreshed and be well, and the evil spirit would depart from me I would not care how silly it was.
There was a time in my own life that I attended a lot of conferences and meetings. I was desperate for God and He met me at those places. It’s not all hype. Trust me.
September 2nd, 2008 at 10:06 am
I’m not saying music can’t minister to you, that is clearly in the Bible. I’m saying music can’t minister you in the prophetic.
September 2nd, 2008 at 10:19 am
I agree, this is ridiculous. It looks just like another hip, Christian hype fad thing to do. Just like prayer tunnels, barking like a dog, gold teeth, and planting scripture stakes in the ground, CBC buys into whatever clever “flavor of the month” Christian thing is going on and wears it out till the next big thing comes along. I’m glad Pope caught it. If were not questioning this stuff who is?
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
In the OT, only four classes of people were moved upon by the Holy Spirit.
Kings, Prophets, Priests, and Judges. “The Lord dwells in the praises of His people” is a favorite passage for charismatics, but in the NT, the Holy Spirit dwells in all who believe on the name of Jesus. (see John 7:39) You don’t need to sing to bring the presence of the Holy Spirit, it just isn’t a NT doctrine. I don’t mind music in a meeting, but it is WAY overused as an emotional tool.
Over all, I object to people elevating themselves on platforms, making themselves bigger than life on a jumbo screen, putting on “programs” with the idea that Jesus will descend because they are there. Jesus said He would be where ever two or three are gathered, not two or three thousand.
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:53 pm
I’d like to believe that the Lord dwelling in the praises of His people is a “Bible” doctrine, not just an “OT” doctrine. In fact, I’d kinda like to do away with the idea of an “OT vs. NT” belief system. Christ and the NT writers all quoted numerous OT scriptures, and based their beliefs on studying the scriptures. I think we should do the same.
September 2nd, 2008 at 1:44 pm
That’s a fine sentiment, except that the reason for the divide is a theological one. We’re no longer under the Old Covenant, we are under a New Covenant whereby we are justified through faith. Saying that everything in the OT still applies is missing the point of the New Covenant. There is still truth to be had from the OT, but it must be taken into context and the perspective that we now have after the Cross.
Regardless, I don’t think anyone will ever be able to quantify “prophecy” outside of the strictest terms of “predicting the future”. The OT use of the word implies a bit more than that, so the authors of Scripture seem to have been purposefully vague about what it meant. Maybe because they didn’t know either? Of course, if we are to follow OT practices to the letter, we should stone any false prophets. I think that would diminish the use of the word as we see it being flung about today, don’t you think?
Having been a part of that scene, even when I was completely bought into what was going on, the idea of calling things “prophetic” seemed like a lame attempt to attach significance to something that had none. It was a gimmick and it felt like hype. If Pastor Joel really enjoys Donna’s playing, then good for them, but let’s not attach some kind of trumped up spiritual meaning to tripping on really good music.
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Wow, I was at Starbucks getting coffee this morning and a Cello strolled right up to me and started “reading my mail”. I have no idea how it knew I was C-Minor right now, but it did. And the best part is that it told me if kept tithing God would use me as a D-Sharp.
Unbelievable.
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:40 pm
OK, I’m with Jeremiah. Let’s not toss out the baby with the bath water. I think that music is spiritual, given that it’s created and played by spiritual beings, people. God can speak through anything, anyway, but seems to frequently speak through his creation, particularly nature and people. I have had many times in my life when the Lord has talked with me, touched me, moved in/on me, through music, both with and without lyrics.
That being said, for someone to say that “s/he is playing the XX prophetically” does sound pretty silly. Trying to name it and make it sound supernatural diminishes it.
We could have a conversation about prophecy, and what it is and isn’t. That might help us figure out whether or not music can be prophetic. Maybe another day. My understanding of prophecy is that it sometimes foretells, sometimes exhorts, sometimes encourages, and always points people to Christ. If that’s all true, then why can’t the Lord use music as the vehicle for expressing those things?
September 2nd, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Music is soothing. That’s the only thing I get from Jeremiah’s verse.
Real prophets are rarely on a stage. They are ministering to the poor and the outcast.
(…and most certainly voting for Obama.)
September 2nd, 2008 at 6:19 pm
WhatHesaid—We like what you said and could not have said it better.
We especially love the jumbo screens! So true
September 7th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Pastor Joel Stockstill has had to get blood dialysis multiple times throughout the week for the past few years now and has also lost much of his physical abilities to partake in activities such as playing music. Apparently he used to be a skilled violinist, but hasn’t been able to play in over two years.
Pastor Donna was moved by the Holy Spirit to play her violin over Joel Stockstill at Generation Unleashed, in a way to symbolically say that his healing would come and he would be able to play the violin again. So I suppose it was “prophetic” in the sense that Donna had felt the Holy Spirit lead her to do it. which, especially in the Old Testament, prophets were not only called to be the voice of God, but were often called to DO something which carried a symbolic message to a person or people
September 8th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Whether or not the violin playing over him was “prophetic” or not, I do believe in the power of the Lord to minister to folks in many ways, including music, and will be praying for Pastor Stockstill’s healing.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
I’m glad my photo was of some conversation to you all.
I cannot believe you took the time to search through flickr
and find a photo so you could bash it on this ridiculous
website. (mind you this is the first time i have learned
about this site and browsed through it)
I’m thankful that Ian gave the story behind the photo.
What I had meant by Donna playing prophetically over Joel
was that she was encouraging him in the Spirit and symbolically
saying that his healing is to come.
It was a beautiful moment in which God ministered through his people
to be the church and encourage one another, and to intercede for a
healing in Pastor Joel’s life and his wife whom passed away.
I am very discouraged to know that someone would take this photo
and degrade it in such a way, just throw the baby out with the bath water,
not knowing the context and the story before and after the event.
sorry no one gave you a break.
but you have one coming.
September 19th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Luann,
I’m glad this blog was of some conversation to you.
I cannot believe you took the time to search through the internet and to find this blog so you could bash it with your comment. (mind you this is the first time i have learned about your comment and browsed through it)
I’m thankful that JP gave the real story behind the photo.
What he had meant by Donna playing prophetically over Joel
was that she was playing the violin over him, and that was it.
It was a beautiful blog post in which God ministered through his people
to be the church and encourage one another through laughter, and to intercede for a healing in Pastor Joel’s life and his wife whom passed away.
I am very discouraged to know that someone would take this blog
and degrade it in such a way, just throw the baby out with the bath water,
not knowing the context and the story before and after the event.
sorry no one gave you a break.
but you have one coming.
-catalyst
September 19th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Cat, you sound like a bitter ahole.
The Pastor’s wife is dead! Why is that of no importance to you? Does it shed any light on the matter? Just because you can’t understand something doesn’t mean you should ridicule it.
September 19th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Jeremiah, you sound like a bitter ahole
The Blog’s post is hilarious. Why is that of no importance to you? Does it shed any laughter on the matter? Just because you can’t understand something doesn’t mean you should ridicule it.
September 19th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Heh. Come on, Jeremiah, you’re better than that.
September 19th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
I didn’t find it hilarious. I’m trying to figure out how it represented Christ in any way, shape, or form. I do see how Christ can be represented in a believer ministering to another believer through music. That I can see quite clearly.
September 19th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Meh. Seriously, I’m just waiting for the City Church or City Bible Church to declare bankruptcy. (And I’m pretty sure it’s gonna happen to one of them in the next year or so.) And then I’m totally quitting this blog.
September 19th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Is there an echo in here?
I’m just saying that sometimes we can unintionaly cross a line (like joking about a situation where dudes wife recently died) and when we find out that we did, we shouldn’t keep crossing it.
September 19th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Cat, btw I said that you sound like a bitter ahole, not that you are one.
September 19th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Once you found out the whole story you should have just humbled yourself and apologized. What luann said is true and did not need to be turned around on her. I agree with jeremiah and think that you guys crossed the line this time.
September 20th, 2008 at 8:24 am
Well…it’s been awhile…we were due.
Nobody joked about the dudes wife dying. Everyone here is missing the point…violins are not and can not be prophetic…that is all.
September 20th, 2008 at 8:38 am
Exactly.
Once again, our readers fail at basic reading comprehension. I so want smarter readers.
September 20th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Oh no worries. I completely understand. You’re just acting like a good pastor. The Well is really lucky to have you in leadership.
September 20th, 2008 at 10:06 am
Cat, no worries. I completely understand. You’re just acting like a good blogger. City Business Church is real lucky to have you in leadership.
let me know if you ever need some more encouragement.
September 20th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Heh. Now, you’re getting into the spirit of things.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
catalyst said: Once again, our readers fail at basic reading comprehension. I so want smarter readers.
Back at ya.
September 20th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Wow…now everyone sounds bitter.
Sorry folks, but I do have to back Cat and Pope on this one. I’ve always said the same thing about this blog: if you don’t like it, don’t read it. And if people are going to come on here and trash the blog then they should not be shocked by anyone’s response. It’s the old saying…”if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.”
September 21st, 2008 at 7:01 am
And if you don’t like Amerca then get the hell out. Love it or leave it. this is what you are saying then, right Reformer?
September 21st, 2008 at 7:39 am
”
Yup…thats exactly what he said. You aren’t putting words in his mouth at all…in fact what I think he really said was:
“I hate America and everyone who lives in this God forsaken country”.
September 21st, 2008 at 8:09 am
RP, I was talking about the principle of love it or leave it, and using the America part as an example.
The blog deals with issues of CBC or MFI churches, and using Reformers thoughts consistantly would mean that this blog should never voice disagreement with CBC or MFI.
Is that a fair question? What do you think ?
September 21st, 2008 at 8:20 am
I think he was talking about a “magic fortune-telling Trombone” blasting future truths in our ear…
I think this is all a little rediculous.
September 21st, 2008 at 8:28 am
It is a little rediculous.
I totally agree with you.
September 21st, 2008 at 6:27 pm
The Reformer said:
September 20th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Wow…now everyone sounds bitter.
Sorry folks, but I do have to back Cat and Pope on this one. I’ve always said the same thing about this blog: if you don’t like it, don’t read it. And if people are going to come on here and trash the blog then they should not be shocked by anyone’s response. It’s the old saying…”if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.”
Wow you guys are amazing. People are responding to pope coming on and trashing someones picture without knowing the whole story. You guys are the ones that should not be shocked by anyone’s response. They are being just as defensive about their picture as you are your blog.
September 21st, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Hello. Being out of the loop for many years I’m still unfamiliar with much of today’s Church culture.
Let me get this straight. When I ask this question I am not disrespecting any individual.
Is musical instrumental “prophecy” a term or concept commonly used in Church circles?
If it is, what characteristics are attributed to this medium (i.e. free-floating improvisation, chordal changes, melodies; does the instrument lead the worshippers or does it follow a “lead sheet”, etc.).
I sincerely would like to know. Thanks.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:18 am
Like most things commonly used in Church circles these days it’s make it up as you go.
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:28 am
I don’t know how common it is for churches to consider music “prophetic” but I know that it is prevalent in MFI circles. Working with those people for many years, there was a strong desire to attach spiritual significance to many things. Even moreso, the desire to be “prophetic” or do prophetic things was a badge of honor among them. This is all with the best of intentions, but it really stretches the meaning, and perhaps validity, of saying that this thing or that thing is prophetic.
I think it may be possible to prophecy through music; however, unless the message is clear, it is akin to speaking in tongues without an interpreter. In this case, Donna had what she felt is a clear message from God for the pastor, and the prophetic gift should be judged on this message alone. Her violin playing reinforced the message already given, but to say that the violin playing itself was prophetic is like saying a piece of paper is prophetic because a prophecy is written on it. My point is: prophecy is about the message, not the medium.
At the risk of belaboring this point, I want to mention the stories where the Apostles would pray over handkerchiefs to be sent to those who were sick so they could be healed. The hankies weren’t miraculous healers, it was the Holy Spirit who did the healing. The scraps of cloth were simply a tangible medium for the Holy Spirit to use to bring healing. I think prophecy is the same way, we shouldn’t confuse content for container.
You just make up stuff.
September 22nd, 2008 at 10:52 am
HUH?
Let me say it a little simpler then….
Don’t like…don’t read.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
reformer said: Don’t like…don’t read.
pope said: Here is a picture I found on flickr.
This is what’s hilarious. You guys are going around trying to drum up fodder for your blog by reading other blogs and then showing pictures and writing comments about the stuff YOU read. Applying the don’t like…don’t read logic seems a little ridiculous since that is what most of your blog is made up of. Stuff you guys read that you don’t like!
Oh yeah and if you don’t like cbc’s tithing doctrine or anything else that goes on there maybe this one would suffice:f you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Myself…. I would have just apologized. ha ha
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
This all got so harsh, so fast. Opinions on the topic should be welcomed by anyone who embraces or opposes the idea of Donna “prophetically” playing the violin over Joel Stockstill. I disagree with Reformed Pope’s criticism of the situation, but he wasn’t given a chance to re-evaluate the situation in the context of what actually happened…
Since my comment on what took place that night, my attempt to articulate what was going on during the service, no one has commented on the actual situation, but on irrelevant sub-topics.
Reformed Pope or Catalyst or whoever, what are your disagreements with what was going on that night?
p.s.
( I use that term prophetically loosely, since Donna nor anyone from the pulpit claimed the playing of the violin to be prophetic, it simply accompanied a prophetic message)
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:21 pm
My only disagreement is that a violin can be prophetic. If that is not what was really happening than there is nothing more to see here.
I hope that Joel Stocsstill gets healed and can one day play a violin not prophetically over somone else.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:38 pm
but CAN the action of playing a violin accompany a prophetic message? Or be symbolic of a prophetic message?
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Of course a violin can accompany a prophetic message and it can be very symbolic…but if you ever think you hear one telling you to move to China…beware.
Oh, and for the record…I have never said “Don’t like…Don’t Read”. This blog is still around because of all the people who hate it but still read…(thank you Gareth Gilpin).
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Um, we did leave the kitchen. Cat, Pope, myself, most of the regulars on here haven’t set foot in CBC in years…so I’m missing the point.
Here’s the bottom line: JJ was offended by what Cat wrote. So I said to JJ, if he doesn’t like it, don’t read it. Pretty simple. I don’t see how that ties into anything else. Pretty cut and dry to me.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Reformer,
Your “logic”, ” Don’t like…don’t read. ” is retarded.
If you don’t like child porn don’t watch it.
How about the bumper sticker ” if your against abortion don’t have one.”
If you don’t like my comments don’t read them.
See how stupid it sounds?
Bro, I know your a smart cat, just think your off on this one. Anyways, obviously we see some things differently, hope the weekly bible study thing is going well and I hope the Chargers take out the Jets.
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:06 am
reformer said: Um, we did leave the kitchen. Cat, Pope, myself, most of the regulars on here haven’t set foot in CBC in years…so I’m missing the point.
If you left it in the kitchen you wouldn’t be on a blog writing comments about it. Or if there is nothing wrong with that then let others have their say without trying to shut them up with” don’t like don’t read” and” if you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen.” It’s basically the same thing mfi pastors will tell you if you disagree with them. That’s why we are all here.
September 23rd, 2008 at 9:18 am
Recall that when the rolling on the floor, drunk stuff hey-dayed at CBC… Cindy Jacobs was there. . they WERE praying over hankies .. hoardes of hankies and sending them out? something. prayed over some rocks too..
September 23rd, 2008 at 11:04 am
Sighhhhhhhh. I thought you were different JJ.
Double Sighhhhhh. Oh well. All is good in love and war I guess.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:08 pm
:)