Dutch Sheets Apologizes for Failings of the Charasmatic Church
Posted on September 4th, 2008 by catalyst into the Things Dougie wouldn't do category
Here is an email from Dutch Sheets apologizing on behalf of the charasmatic community. It's a little long winded, and he gets into an issue with the Lakeland Church that I don't really understand. But his points at the end are excellent: 1) We, the leaders of the charismatic community, have operated in an extremely low level of discernment.
That is correct.
2) We, the leaders of the charismatic church, spin our involvement and fail to acknowledge our responsibility when other leaders fall - all of which stems from our self-preservation and pride.
Uh, fo shizzo.
3) Our procedures and standards of accountability are incredibly inadequate. We have provided camaraderie, not biblical accountability.
But you all have pretty hair, so I think Jesus is cool with it.
4) We, the leaders of the charismatic church, have built on hype, sensation, innovation, programs, personality and charisma.
Apology accepted.
Thanks to Henri and Pastor Burt.
Updated:
Oh, and I almost forgot.
TOUCH NOT THY ANNOINTED!
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September 4th, 2008 at 7:21 am
I think the biggest issue was that Todd Bentley is bat-crap crazy and everyone got so caught up in the hype that they were willing to endorse him unconditionally despite the fact he has serious personal issues. There are numerous youtube videos documenting his rather, uh, unorthodox style.
Kicking a man with colon cancer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUTCWLoD4-4
“God said, ‘Kick her in the face!’”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9Ay4QAtW8
Now that he’s facing a very messy divorce, even the board of directors at Fresh Fire have jettisoned him.
http://www.freshfire.ca/printpage_content.php?id=1065
Doug is right to publicly admit blame for the church on these issues. It’s about time someone in Charismania stood up for character and integrity first. The sad thing is, I have seen a lot of similar behavior in the past at MFI churches, and I don’t really expect it to change. If they actually started requiring pastors and leaders to be men and women of integrity and maturity, there wouldn’t be many people left to lead MFI churches. (Oh, yes, I just went there.)
September 4th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Good for Dutch Sheets. One can only hope that he is held in high enough esteem that others follow suit. Especially when it comes to their own churches far removed from the media.
I would sure like to hear an apology from Portland City Church in regards to Gail Bryan and Doug Cotton and the devastation they left behind here on the Harbor.
September 4th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Thank you Dutch for saying out loud what we have all been thinking for years. Hopefully, real change will follow.
September 5th, 2008 at 7:03 am
Wow very cool - I love to see real humility in these people. I just hope others like him (Frank especially) follow suit (Has Frank and Bob kissed and made up yet? does anyone know?)
I’d like to think blogs like this one really make a difference.
did you guys see The Colbert Report last night? he had a blogger on there apparently responsible for seeing Palin nominated as MCains running mate. I’m not making a political statment here just an observation on the power of blogs. Of course the little geek admitted to living with his mother - THAT was hilarious!
September 5th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
JAIAM,
Yes, I saw the Colbert Report last night. Hilarious, per usual. The 21 year old blogger was actually pretty impressive, I thought. For someone his age to have the self-assurance to admit he’s living with his mother, I was impressed. I WAS shocked to know that anyone had considered Palin as a VP prospect until last Thursday night when McCain popped the question, however. She just seems to have come out of nowhere, doesn’t she?
September 5th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
My husband listens to talk radio and they’ve been talking about her for some time I guess - that’s how I heard of her.
September 6th, 2008 at 9:06 am
How did we get from Dutch Sheets apologizing to the Charismatic Church to Palin? You’d think that would be newsworthy enough, it’s something I’ve been waiting to hear for thirty years. If this gets swept under the rug (and you know it’s not something pastors and leaders are going to readily embrace) we’re screwed.
Its time for leadership to start taking responsiblity for what they have done before real change will ever take place. Dutch Sheets is someone in leadership that has taken the first step. Probably because the Todd Bentley scandall has brought so much media attention that it could not be ignored and everyone associated stands to lose their reputation over it. For whatever reason it sounds like Dutch Sheets has enough integrity to be honest about it. Of course you notice he is the only one. But one is better than nothing.
How I wish there could have been someone like him to validate what I was going through during the discipleship movement. It would have saved me years of confusion and grief.
September 6th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Loyalty vs. Truth said:
September 6th, 2008 at 9:06 am
How did we get from Dutch Sheets apologizing to the Charismatic Church to Palin?
JAIAM:
My point was was to acknowledge that bloggers have power & have started making a difference in the world. I think this blog has made a difference already - we might never know how much but it definitely has impacted my life.
September 6th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
JAIAM, Do you think that bloggers have enough power to make a difference in the Charismatic Church? So far the only thing we seem to have affected is other bloggers. Most of which are people abused by the corrupt pastors and leaders, not the pastors and leaders themselves.
Sure, some leaders are being affected by the blogs but just enough to brainwash their followers to stay away from blogs and all of the” bitter” people that are on them.
I do get your point though and I think even a nerdy blogger could bring change if given the right audience. I just think someone still in leadership like Dutch Sheets might have a little more influence and get the message across a little faster that’s all.
I wonder what he will do next when no other pastors or leaders choose to join him? Maybe he will be joining us here on the blog. Ha, Ha.
September 7th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Not sure - IMHO I would think someone like Dutch would have a bigger impact too, but still something tells me more people read & agree with this blog than are willing to admit it.
It took us 3 years to leave CBC and then it was to go to another MFI church where the wonderful pastor was hung out to dry and is still probably recovering from it.
Growing up there, the whole culture of it all, as in any tight societal bond or cult if you will, it’s hard to leave the only thing you know and the only friends you have - which is my point - some people need to leave but just havent yet.
I have to say, we’re a bit lonely right now, even now I know if I throw myself into my church whole-heartedly, we would have instant friends. For now I’d rather be lonely & hang out with the ‘non-Christians’ at work for my socialization.
September 7th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
JAIAM says
Right, and you are most likely detoxing from the former world, so you are wise not to jump in till you feel ready. And if you never feel ready, that’s ok too because maybe you are meant to be more productive outside the 4 walls of the church anyway!
September 7th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
I hear you TVL! It IS a long time coming just to hear a Charismatic leader speak up and take ownership and tell us what’s been going wrong in these past few years of weirdness! In the past, Dutch had a difinitive way of cutting through the crap to the reality of life. His books are easy enough to read and understand, plus he’s really funny when he’s not being so blasted intense. That’s why many of us could stomach his voice much more than other voices coming out of the same stream. Too bad that Dutch didn’t have the forthrightness to speak up before while the Bentley Lakeland thing was going on and why didn’t he speak out against that weird commissioning of Todd Bentley, led by C. Peter Wagner, Dutch’s mentor and friend?
Even if Dutch is the more ‘normal’ among the apostolic alliance, and didn’t join in on the commissioning, he is currently up to some strange things: The End Times blog has some posts about it if you are interested. It appears he is still too closely alligned (NAR word not ours!) to the NAR to have any sway in convincing us that he is disentangling himself from that weirdness. When you are personally hosting an “Ark” service for 3 days for the purpose of “apostolically aligning the whole United States under Dutch Sheets, C Peter Wagner, Chuck Pierce and Robert Henderson” isn’t it safe to assume he isn’t out of the delusional woods yet?. They even have a street address for this alliance “with the number 666 in it which is rather odd for those so into numerology.”
Like you said, Dutch’s apology letter is a start at least. But it’s obviously only a start.
Bottom line for the rest of us is we each need to keep our eyes open, listen to the Lord ourselves and stay away from these intensely dramatic post scripts of the Bible that these self appointed apostolic prophets are trying to pass off as God Speaking. It means pulling our heads out of the sand, searching for the real truth and taking nothing at face value except the Bible itself (whether the Bible is infallible or not).
We just can’t afford to let anyone think or speak for us anymore. We’ve all been there and done that and look where it got us.
September 8th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
I too wish more current and former pastors and leaders in MFI and similar evangelical/charismatic type churches would publically speak out against the misguided error of their ways, but I don’t think it’s going to happen. The key point that this discussion is missing is the fact that when and if an influential leader does speak out against crazy charismatics, they are completely discredited, criticized, and hung out to dry. This causes there level of influence to plummet and it no longer matters what they say. Their former faithful followers just look them as someone the devil got to. I mean just look at this blog. Look at all the continued barrage of animosity directed towards City Business for raising legitimate concerns about CBC. Rather then try and solve the problems they just work to discredit us…and we have no platform of prominence in charismatic circles! This kind of result puts fear in the hearts of most influential people, so rather then fight back they quietly fade out into the sunset. I for one have seen dozens of people leave CBC over the years, and very few of them will even speak poorly of the place. Blogs and books are the best way to get the message out there of how horrible many of these places have become.
I agree with this 100%. As I stated above its hard to speak out against something when you know people are going to come at you for it, especially when it’s all you’ve known. After I posted a comment awhile back that somewhat revealed who I was, I got text messages to my cell speaking out against me for it…I couldn’t believe it. I thought they would never read this stuff up at the bubbles, but I learned the hard way that they do. Lost a good friend of many years who I pray to God will someday leave that place. Hopefully God will bring him to the place as I did, when your eyes are opened to how much you can let yourself waste away up there.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
reformer said: I too wish more current and former pastors and leaders in MFI and similar evangelical/charismatic type churches would publically speak out against the misguided error of their ways, but I don’t think it’s going to happen. The key point that this discussion is missing is the fact that when and if an influential leader does speak out against crazy charismatics, they are completely discredited,criticized, and hung out to dry.
Exactly. If you read Dutch Sheets statement he mentions this in the very beginning. He knows the risks and knows what could happen to him over this. I hope that since he had enough guts to speak out publicly knowing the risks involved that he will fight back and not fade out into the sunset as you said others have done.
September 9th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Come on you guys! He apologized and ya it was a noble thing to do. BUT now he is hosting an “Ark of God with a New Moses Movement” conference at his church where they are trying to align the United States, our country, under their self imposed apostolic ‘jurisdiction’ and this is posted on the front page of his website. You can go read it for yourselves.
I liked Dutch too but for God’s sake he’s not ALIGNING himself to the real world here. He’s still participating in a delusional realm nowhere near reality. What fruit comes of all this?? Other than more conferences with more weird names and soaking in what they think is God’s presence — the next religious high complete with its own latest buzzword.
If you like Dutch so much, maybe you better start praying for him then to get a GRIP and begin to be a voice normal people want to listen to. As it is now his audience pretty much consists of conference queens that choose delusion over reality and don’t get a lot done in the real world. We just heard from one yesterday who can’t get over to Colorado fast enough and is afraid she’s gonna miss something.
September 10th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Actually Dutch Sheets speaks to a wide variety of churches and people from all over. Just last year he spoke at our church at our annual community gathering, and we were very blessed by it, and we’re not even part of his organization. He prophesied and spoke things over us that we have seen come to pass over this last year, not by human effort but by the Lord. I’m not saying I blindly follow every word he says, but I do respect the man, and believe he walks in a level of anointing and apostolic leadership that is trustworthy and from the Lord.
I believe we do need to be conscious of the culture around us, but I also believe there is a reality and way of life that only belongs to the kingdom of God, and it may look radically different than our culture. Jesus was not sub-culture, He was counter-culture. His message stepped on toes and made people uncomfortable, and not just the religious but the normal, everyday people too. They were the ones calling for His crucifixion in the end. So these “conferences with weird names” may be strange sure, but they may also bring a presence and atmosphere that only belongs to the kingdom.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
jaspercreel said:
September 10th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Actually Dutch Sheets speaks to a wide variety of churches and people from all over. Just last year he spoke at our church at our annual community gathering, and we were very blessed by it, and we’re not even part of his organization. He prophesied and spoke things over us that we have seen come to pass over this last year, not by human effort but by the Lord.
I don’t believe that the apology that Dutch Sheets gave was just a noble thing to do. I don’t believe that he could have said what he said and been so right on unless it WAS by the spirit of God. This is something wounded and displaced Christians have been waiting years to hear.
Who would have to make such a statement in the Charismatic Church before you would give them any credit Detox? Every pastor and leader associated with MFI or the Charismatic Church has lost credibility because of the very things he apologizes for in his statement. They are all delusional and need to get a grip on reality.
I think what has happened is huge and for us to bury this is wrong. We already know that the leadership of the Charismatic Church will.
Who cares who said it? It needed to be said and I think he should at least get the support and affirmation that he is right on and we are grateful for what he has done.
September 11th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Loyalty,
I’m not saying I care who said it or arguing that Dutch shouldn’t have said it. I think it’s great Dutch apologized and I’m not necessarily dismissing it. I guess I’m saying that although he has made some discerning observations in the apology that he’s still doing a bunch of stuff that seems a bit kookoo even if he is well-meaning in doing those bizarre things. The fruit of it is only more of the same behavior and I don’t see any thing on the horizon but more meetings that you just don’t want to miss since God is there and for those who sign up the latest revelation downloaded from heaven will be theirs for the price of the conference.
What I am saying is THIS is where the line is drawn in the sand in my opinion. If Dutch and Jasper and who ever else believe that God is asking us to withdraw from society to wallow around in more meetings in order to seek Him and when that seeking him entails a bunch of stuff like feathers and rebirthing Moses then they can do so to their hearts content.
But I don’t think God is asking us to do that kind of stuff and so you can find me on the other side of that line. I am not that kind of Christian and don’t want to be. Not saying you have to agree just saying that’s where I am.
I do think it’s important to find out what people are actually doing and saying before you get your hopes up too much. I wish Dutch would follow the thread of where his apology was taking him instead of immersing himself in an Ark that only a select few are privvy to, etc.
September 11th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Did anyone actually read the entire letter for themselves? It has been
read and analyzed on many blogs and web sites. So maybe you should
look at it again with new eyes. What exactly is he saying?
If it were a straight apology or call to truth or repentence for the movement as a whole, that would be one thing, but It is muddled with contradictory
messages. Is he for C. Peter Wagner and what he did or isn’t he?
If it were an announcement ‘hey I was off, I was in relationship with people who are ‘out there’ and I’ve come to my senses and getting back to the Bible, no longer living on hype with this crowd’ That would be something else.
He had some good points but it is so ‘politically correct’ in not wanting to
offend anyone he is in real relationship with -that it gets watered down
rather quickly. If he knew it was off down there in Florida why didn’t
he speak out clearly then? It was either truth or it wasn’t. How come so many other believers saw it early on and even wrote books about it? They had no fear in saying it very clearly to other believers –this is off. Do not go!
Many believe it is akin to a politician saying ‘I’m sorry 9 11 happened –
we had information that could have prevented this, but for various reasons
we decided not to let you know. Now we’re sorry so many got hurt.’
It could have been stopped or prevented but we chose not to.
Did you read that he is still in ‘alignment’ or fellowship with these people
who’s goal is to ‘Align the entire nation?’ So how do you feel about that
and who are they exactly? Meaning who appointed them as our apostles
or leaders?
Look into the NAR -who they are and who is related to them. Does
Teg Haggard and the World Prayer Center ring a bell. Yes it was
begun by them.
Unless he distances himself by saying this is heretical, it will continue.
And is continuing with the ark conference. It is constantly something new because this crowd of seekers absolutely demand a new ‘word’ every
6 weeks just to keep their faith alive. If each conference was so fulfilling
than why do people have to constantly run after one conference or another?
We call it Christian Meth because the detox from it is a hard one.
What’s left is your real faith in Jesus and that can tolerate the cleaning out
process from this wacky world.
We had great hope for Dutch too. No one is capable of making you feel like you are hearing the ’secrets of the universe’ like he is. I’ve seen
crowds hinged on every word he speaks in rapt attention after a long day of
meetings where you wondered if you could take in one more word. He
could look calm, cool and collected in the crispest white shirts I’d ever seen!
This in a hot gym full of people sitting in every possible corner. No matter
how long he preached the crowd was willing to stay for more!
It doesn’t matter unless what is being taught lines up with
the Bible and is truth. That food always leaves you hungry for more and
never satisfies. Thats where the conference circuit was begun.
September 11th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
detox said: I do think it’s important to find out what people are actually doing and saying before you get your hopes up too much. I wish Dutch would follow the thread of where his apology was taking him instead of immersing himself in an Ark that only a select few are privvy to, etc.
I couldn’t agree more Detox. I would like to follow the thread too of where his apology could possibly take us. Taking the discussion in another direction by dragging up a bunch of sh-t that everyone already knows these whack-O Charismatics have been up to for years is counterproductive.
What he said in his apology is something I have not heard any other leader ever say in the Charismatic Church and I think it is worth focusing on and bringing it to other Christians attention if possible. I did read his whole statement and he and other leaders in the Charismatic Church should be held to it. Exploring the ways in which that might happen is something I would be interested in discussing. Talking sh-t on a blog can be just as addicting for us former church addicts as being a conference groupie if you know what I mean.
Someone in a position of leadership has taken a step in the right direction. Let the leaders in the Charismatic Church discredit him and bury this. Believe me they don’t need any help.
September 11th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Thank you Outside - your post helps me feel less of a crazy person. I appreciate that you get that there is a reason I felt the need to point out the ’sh-t’ (Loyalty’s word and more on that later) about Dutch. Not just to smear him or deviate from the original letter but to say ‘great, ok, but look what he’s still doing and won’t his words carry more weight if he gets out of the wacko
circuscircuit he’s involved in?’ If he is completely lost to that world then we can’t enable it by simply looking away.Great point about the politician when you say:
Excellent points here:
I didn’t know that about Ted Haggard and the World Prayer Center, although I knew it is in Denver (along with a kazillion other churches, Doug so why Denver?! Do they really NEED another church?).
Have to love this and you said it better than I could:
Which brings me to a few points of Loyalty’s which I’ll save for the next post since this is getting a bit long.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Loyalty said-
We may need to agree to disagree Loyalty, but I am trying to understand what you are getting at and want to give you the benefit of the doubt- even though I think you are wrong saying what Dutch is up to is more of the same stuff Charismatics have been doing for years. It’s deeper than that and the NAR is delving into realms the Lord hasn’t asked us to explore. And if you are asking me to keep my mouth shut about that(which reminds me of the MFI followers who think we should keep quiet about the bad behavior because they are doing so much good) don’t you think that is a double standard? Besides, what Outside and I are both saying about Dutch is not such common knowledge (obviously). Yes, we all know there are wac charismatic things going on but we were disappointed to find out Dutch, who seemed like the sane one, is smack-dab in the middle of the weirdness!
Yes, blogging can be an addiction. I suppose I’d consider it more of an addiction if I had to post every day – I liken it to enjoying a glass of wine 3 or 4 times a week as apposed to drinking a whole bottle myself every night.
Loyalty, getting back to the Dutch thing, maybe if you look at it from this angle: If Dutch is who we have hoped he is, then bringing up the questionable sh-t he is participating in right now isn’t going to hurt anything. It’s the reality of the painful truth that his actions are undermining his wonderful words; when if he could just come back to earth for awhile and dwell among the rest of us maybe God could actually use his passion and eloquence to steer the Charismatic Church in a healthy direction.
It’d be tempting to be a loyal follower of Dutch for various reasons (his humor, eloquence, and what I used to think was a deep understanding of God’s word which he will now have to prove he still possesses) (and how about those crisp white shirts Outside mentioned!
) but the truth of where he stands right now simply won’t allow me to do that. I’m on the other side of the line and I can’t cross back. I’m free and disentangled from all the garbled warfare hype sitting here in my right mind and it feels really good. The other Detox and I talk about it all the time – that we have lived to tell and are so grateful.
By the way, since I feel this so strongly I’m not apposed to sending Dutch an email and respectfully tell him anything I’m saying here. It may be a bit presumptuous and it may not do any good, but it would certainly be worth a try – I don’t know – hmmmm…
But maybe the Lord is up to something beyond all of this. My friend (the other Detox partner poster) mentioned this the other day: Could it be God won’t ALLOW us to be loyal to any teacher/leader but Him anymore? Is God methodically exposing every strange untruth for our future protection, teaching us to think ‘critically’ and discerningly so we won’t succumb to every wind of doctrine? Could it be the ‘last days’ are upon us? Perhaps HE has had enough. He’s called a Jealous God after all. . .and maybe He doesn’t want anyone speaking for Him anymore? These are all just questions that our faith, that remains strong and sure, can stand.
September 12th, 2008 at 7:48 am
Detox said:Loyalty, getting back to the Dutch thing, maybe if you look at it from this angle: If Dutch is who we have hoped he is, then bringing up the questionable sh-t he is participating in right now isn’t going to hurt anything. It’s the reality of the painful truth that his actions are undermining his wonderful words; when if he could just come back to earth for awhile and dwell among the rest of us maybe God could actually use his passion and eloquence to steer the Charismatic Church in a healthy direction.
Obviously you do think that his actions are undermining his apology so I will ask you this. If Frank Damazio or Wendall Smith or the Pastor of the church you left gave the apology would that make a difference to you? Which leader in the Charismatic Church would have to make such an apology so they could steer the church in a healthy direction? If there were such a person what impact; if any, do you think their apology would have on the Charismatic Church?
September 13th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
No, it wouldn’t make a difference if the MFI guys gave the apology. It would take watching them for a year after the apology before I could believe the Lord had actually done a sincere work in their hearts. They are the worst at talking talking talking and doing the apposite of what they talk about.
It’s their years of incessantly talking that has caused me not to trust them.
Like I said before, Dutch’s apology is a good start. I think Dutch’s voice is the best Charismatic voice to make the apology - because I think he is more respected among the more intelligent and discerning. Or at least he used to be respected. If he keeps having Ark meetings and chaneling extra-Biblical revelation he may lose that place of respect except in the circles who like that kind of thing.
Charismatics are famous for alot of talk and minimal fruit. The saying “Talk is Cheap” comes to mind and we’ll have to watch and see what Dutch is up to next (which is what I thought I was doing by telling you guys what I saw he is up to lately). It’s one thing to expound on a heartfelt assessment of where the Charismatic church is today and apologize for it and quite another to actually turn and go the opposite direction in repentence.
So let’s watch and see, shall we, and hope and pray for the best case scenario to come from his letter. I admit I’m cynical but I do have a sliver of hope– but maybe Dutch needs to get the manchild birthing out of his system before the truth of where he is positioned actually dawns on him. Once he returns to earth as we know it, my sliver of hope is that God will use him to help bring change. If not, oh well, all is not lost. My hunch is God is wanting to use ALL OF US to bring change. He’s freed our voices up for a reason.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
detox said: My hunch is God is wanting to use ALL OF US to bring change. He’s freed our voices up for a reason.
Yeah, like sending all of our former Pastors a copy of the four points listed above, in their entirety. I especially liked this part: Our careless accountability has caused the body of Christ to be spiritually raped and abused. It has produced disillusionment and brought immeasurable reproach to our God and cynicism to His message.
September 17th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Agreed! However what Dutch is saying isn’t new - there have been books published on this very subject. He is now coming to the table with something he has been too busy to speak up about in years past. Glad he’s making time to use his voice to speak up on these issues now though.
Anyway, there are lots of good books, some published as far back as 1998 (Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and John Townsend) and 2001 (Toxic Faith-Experiencing Healing Over Spiritual Abuse by Steven Arterburn) but I’ll just link one for now that every Charismatic and Ex-Charismatic should read:
Toxic Churches-Restoration from Spiritual Abuse by Marc Dupont published in 2004