I wrote this in response to a comment, but it was so good that I thought I would make it a post.
Mrs J on October 20, 2008 at 11:07 am said: 5. Obama is the most pro abortion candidate to ever be nominated for president. Maybe he is. I don’t know. But after the last eight years of Bush, I just don’t care that much about abortion anymore. Seriously? Your mother must be so proud. The reason I don’t care about abortion as much, is because I believe that being pro-life is more than just opposing abortion. It’s about preventing unecessary wars. It’s about opposing torture. It’s about ensuring that there are fewer abortions by providing teens with the knowledge necessary to keep from getting pregnant. It’s about providing low income people with the money necessary to be able to afford to have children. If you vote for McCain then you are almost certainly voting for more wars, more torture, and more abortions. I’m still pro-life. I have just decided that the Democratic party is now more pro-life than the Republican party.
You had me until you said this:
I’m voting for Obama but think that is a bit unfair. Especially since McCain fought Bush on the torture issue. The pro-war McCain statements seem be taken either with little context of our historic military policies or out of context all together.
He fought Bush on torture until he won the nomination for the Republican party, and then he stopped fighting the administration on that issue. And since he is running a campaign to appeal to Bush Republicans, I have no doubt that he will continue to support “enhanced interrogation” techniques.
As for war, McCain will most certainly bomb Iran or tell Israel to bomb Iran. He’s as much as admitted it.
I’m not trying to scare people. If you think more war is what we need to do to remain safe, then fine. Support McCain. But let’s not pretend McCain is something he isn’t.
I said that I was voting for Obama. Did you miss that in all of your zealousness to vilify McCain?
Can you give me a source on bombing Iran?
As far as McCain backing off of torture, he has backed off a whole bunch of stuff in the last 18 months in trying to get elected. That is one of the main reasons that I am not voting for him. The only way his country first message works is if you think allowing him to be president is the best thing. Country first would mean being willing to stand up for issues that you have fought for in the past because you thought those positions were best for America. He fell into the Bob Dole hole. Can’t win as myself, so I better run as someone else. This is why he rarely mentions how he has been a maverick because if he did the GOP folks would run from him in droves.
What I think he might do as president is irrelevant because he is going to lose. I will be helping with that. I am one of those independent, last minute decision voters. I was never pro-McCain, but he pushed me farther and farther away with each decision and statement that he made. How many economic plans has he had in the past month?
Anyway, I am not supporting McCain, but also think twisting some of his positions is unnecessary. There is enough to disagree with without having to stretch to get there.
I was being rhetorical, talking to theoretical McCain voters.
No source. I’ve just heard him speak about the threat of Iran so much, that I take it as a given he would bomb them. If he wins, the neo-cons stay in power, and we get more wars.
Fair enough. But I really don’t think I’m twisting his positions. He’s running as a Bush Republican. What do you think Bush Republicans stand for? They support an International Imperialist Idealogy and they support enacting it through whatever fashion is appropriate, including torture. If McCain wins, all the people who have been in power the last eight years, stay in power. And thus, we get more wars and more torture.
I guess my question is, do you think McCain is different enough from Bush that he would put a stop to this?
On the torture piece: yes, he would be different.
On imperialism, I have to give a more nuanced answer. We have had imperialist tendencies since the end of WW2 whether Dems or GOP are in office. It was Johnson who got us into the Vietnam war with a lie. I think we would go back to more normal American manipulation. I don’t see McCain as one who will start another preemptive war. From a tactical standpoint, he couldn’t if he wanted to. Obama wants to shift a bunch of troops from Iraq to Afghanistan. So, that is not going to be a whole lot different. The tone and mood will be different for sure but the attempt at a military with global reach and vigilant watch won’t change. We are still in Japan, Western Europe and Korea. Those wars have been over for a long time. Some of the problems we currently see have been policies for years. The Bush mistakes have just made the policies more obvious to us all.
The Bush presidency is like a guy in a bad marriage (Afghanistan)who cheats on his wife with a crazy woman (Iraq) who nearly kills him. Then his wife cheats on him and tries to kill him. The next guy better do something different. This is why the Bush administration gave in with the recent agreement with the Iraqi government. Even the “neo-cons” know that it is time to execute an exit strategy in Iraq. At the same time, I recently read that Obama wants to grow the size of standing military forces. I can’t source this for you right now but I don’t doubt it.
BTW, I don’t believe we cannot secure Afghanistan. Won’t happen. The terrain and the people won’t allow it. It is the same reason that we can’t stop drug trafficking in Anacostia a mile down the road from the nation’s capitol. The drug dealers of DC and war lords of Afghanistan are the employers and the overlord’s of the area. The people want to make a living and the warlords are in control of the primary crop. To win, you would have to find a way to provide a source of income for the people and defeat the warlords either through negotiation or battle. You would have to deal with each guy separately in both politics and military. I think we need to exit both places.
I also think that McCain has an opportunity to act differently because he is old. Once in office, he may act like a supreme court justice and be who he wants to be after he gets office. Or he could have to pay the political/party piper. Then he would not go to the white house and get all mavericky.
Of course, the way not to find out what a McCain presidency would look like is to vote for Obama which is what I will do.
One of the main reasons I cannot support McCain is because he has completely failed to distance himself from George Bush and has spent that last 3 months changing his mind on everything he’s ever stood as a Senator. I’m a true purple independent, who at one time was open to voting for him, but here’s 5 areas where McCain completely lost me:
1) Going against the beliefs of a majority of Americas by claiming that the war in Iraq is needed to protect us.
2) Saying the fundamentals of our economy are solid, then saying the economy is facing the biggest crises ever and supporting a needless bailout to nationalize banks, then saying in 3 debates that we need to stop government spending and cut taxes for everyone, then saying that the government needs to spend money and buy up all the bad mortgages. (Huh?)
3) Picking a terrible VP candidate.
4) Creating an economic plan that caters to the rich and powerful (as Bush has done).
5) Continually attack Obama with lies and stupid stuff that doesn’t matter when our country faces some of the most difficult times (I’m still waiting for the TV ad, “Barack Obama IS Osama Bin Laden.” I’m John McCain and I approve this message.)
The last one was hilarious.
I am going to post part of an email from my dad once I get to my computer. It’s about my dad’s view of McCain’s military history. My dad served 2 terms in Vietnam. It is off topic but hilarious.
BTW, at my daughter’s game. 7th gade C team girls volleyball is painful to watch.
PATHETIC
You make a lot of good points. And I totally agree with you about Afghanistan. We’re never gonna secure that place. We need to just get out.
But I’m not sure McCain couldn’t start a war Iran. Here’s how it goes: We tell Israel, that we would have no problem with them bombing Iran’s nuclear facilities. They bomb Iran. Iran responds and attacks Israel. Being Israels only friend, America then gets drawn in and moves troops from Iraq into Iran. (I’m pretty sure Dick Cheney has been pushing for just this scenario). And the Democrats being spineless then give McCain the authority to declare war.
McCain has said there will be other wars. And he talks frequently about the danger Iran presents. I really think this will happen if he wins.
And granted we don’t have the troops or money to start another war, but I’m betting they would just increase the deficit and stretch our military even thinner.
Just giving you something to think about.
And I’m not really defending Democrats. I’m just so disgusted with Republicans that Democrats by default become the pro-life party. You can’t start unnecessary wars that kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people, and still claim to be pro-life.
Cat: that scenario is plausible but you have to go over the mountain and through the woods to get there. I guess I’m not into conspiracy theories too much.
Here is the quote from my dad. I thought of it because in our email exchange today he reminded me to vote for Obama on election day. It is off topic but somehow appropriate.
After some other comments, he ends with:
Oh yeah, what is pathetic? Just in case, let me let you know that my daughter’s team was not playing while I was posting
Well then, silly me! I assumed by saying you didn’t really care about abortion anymore you meant the killing of unborn babies. I guess I missed the memorandum explaining that abortion now means torturing political prisoners and starting unpopular wars. Now it all makes sense.
Not really. I guess I’m just appalled and saddened that you have allowed your leftward enlightenment to also include a cynical apathy regarding something as obviously unjust as the killing of an innocent child.
I value all life, not just the lives of unborn babies.
Fred, your father is quite a hero. And really only a Vietnam vet could get away with saying that about McCain.
And, perhaps I am just buying into a conspiracy theory. I’ll be glad when this is election over. It’s driving me crazy.
So you actually do value the lives on the unborn. You just don’t care about abortion. It’s so clear to me now.
Mrs J,
I am against abortion.
I am pro-life.
I value the lives of unborn children.
I ALSO VALUE other innocent lives.
Is that clear?
I no longer base my vote for a politician on his/her position on abortion, for a number of reasons. If you’d like to know those reasons that I and others have, you can find them if you read this blog.
If you don’t see the point of view of many people here on this issue (pro-life), then you are not truly looking. How can someone claim to be pro-life, preach the sanctity of life, and yet cause and even celebrate the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent people? I don’t think it’s possible.
Have you let your conservative politics lead you into an apathy regarding something as obviously unjust as the killing of innocent people? Yes, I’m talking about the INNOCENT children, women, and men, civillians, in a war in which we are not welcome and in which serves no noble purpose.
My dear little pony,
Search back through allllllll of the comments and you will not find one quote from me regarding war. Not one. You know nothing about my opinion regarding George Bush or the war. I was strictly commenting on the line “I don’t know. But after the last eight years of Bush, I just don’t care that much about abortion anymore.” Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. How barren must ours souls be if we reach a point where we are not moved by the murder of the unborn. It’s not George Bush’s fault that catalyst no longer cares about abortion. That one is catalyst’s fault. And it’s just sad.
PATHETIC is the word Mrs J…
Too many frogs in here jumped into the pot of cold water on the stove.
Too many becoming OF the world while IN the world.
I too do not think of abortion as THE deciding point, nor war, any one thing. These are all factors, but so is character, honesty, and a whle slate of qualities.
Lukewarm comes to mind
My stance on abortion:
Overall I do wish Obama had a better position on abortion. But he’s right on 9 out of 10 issues for me, so how can I not vote for him because of one thing? And if you really read his stance on abortion he does lean pro-life because he supports ALL LIFE. I wish to God there was no abortion in our world. No child should be killed for no reason. However, no child should be born for no reason either. These hardcore pro-lifers try to make it as simple as “make it illegal,†without understanding how complicated that would be. It’s really a bad position to take because it will do nothing to solve the problem. You know how many things are illegal in this country and happen everyday? Abortions won’t go down by outlawing them. No it’s going to take a lot more to stop them, and believe it or not Obama has talked about and wants to implement some new ideas to do that. Google the Matthew 25 Network for more info. The other thing that bothers me with the hardcore pro-life stance is that it usually comes off very hypocritical. Most Christians would agree that they don’t want the government to intrude on people’s lives on the issue of guns, but then want the government to intrude into women’s lives on the issue of abortion, when guns kill too! These people are also the ones who adamantly support the death penalty even though a percentage of all death row inmates have been wrongly convicted. Where’s the outcry to protect their lives? That’s innocent people being put to death by the government, yet none of them seem to care. It just doesn’t add up to me. Then there’s the issues of life after birth. These people want to protect a child’s life, but then don’t care what kind of life that child will have after being born. Do you want a 17 year old girl, who was raped or molested to be forced to give birth and raise a child? I know, I know what about adoption? It’s a viable option, but it’s still forgetting about that young girl. She will be forced to have a baby she doesn’t want. As Obama has said, right now the law in this country is that abortion is legal. A president did not make that law and a president does not have the power to overturn it. A president can only enforce it, which he plans to do. The key in understanding the impact of a president is to look at the 8 years of Bill Clinton and the 8 years of George Bush. Clinton is pro-choice and Bush is pro-life, yet more abortions have been performed under Bush’s term. Why? Because he doesn’t care about the poor, who are having a lot of the abortions. These people need to be educated, not pushed to the side. Obama knows this and seems to actually care about helping them, and I believe his policies will help reduce them. So just because McCain says he is pro-life, he is not pro-ALL LIFE. His policies will be a continuation of Bush’s, which will not change the abortion rate among the poor, will not stop the killing of innocent people on death row, and will not stop needless wars that kill hundreds of thousands of people. But if after all this, a Christian still can’t overcome Obama’s pro-choice stance, which I do get it, I say don’t vote. In the end McCain is no better an option on this issue then Obama, so I’d rather see them exercise their conviction by staying home, because to me, it would be hypocritical.
(OK, bring on the trashing now)
Catalyst,
Interesting what you said about the likelihood of McCain going after Iran. During the first debate Obama went on and on and on about the threat of Iran and how after we are through with Afganistan we should focus on Iran. They are both war grubbing politians in my mind. From a pragmatic standpoint I do think Obama would make a better prez cause he’s the only one who seems to know how to behave like a grown-up.
Mrs. J and Living Life,
I kind of agree with you in that I couldn’t vote for someone who is so pro-choice. (I couldn’t in good conscience vote for either McCain or Obama) Especially since Obama voted in favor of partial birth abortion. That grosses me out. I was raised by a pro-life activist so it’s something that pains me particularly. However, I really can’t judge other people for being more logical than myself. When I read what Catalyst said about “not caring about abortion”, I have to assume that means, in comparison to the other issues. I mean, who’s going to kid themselves that abortion is really that relevant of a subject to base your vote on when neither candidate is going to do much of anything to change abortion?
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I have to agree with Catalyst here – what kind of double standard is this that we can only uphold the holy gauntlet of abortion (which we do) yet elect another republican who seems to devalue the lives of our military if we stay in a war that doesn’t accomplish the original intent? All life is valuable. Besides, how can you even create the unborn if the parents don’t live to procreate? What is that death count now? Wiki points to a website that indicates 4185 confirmed deaths as of 10-21-08.
The right wing republican church I used to go to rallied big time to pray-in George Bush to stave off America’s demise, and sure enough, he was elected, but what good did that do us?? It’s not like our lives are much better now because George served 8 years. Is he really going to be in the history books as the worst president ever? Ya, it really inspires me to pray-in the next republican. (Ahem, those who profess to love history so much certainly don’t seem to understand the concept of learning from what history can teach us.)
Maybe it’s time for the church to shut up and learn to pray authentically and respectfully. Maybe ask God what He thinks without putting words in His mouth; maybe humbly ask what it is we should do now rather than tell Him who to allow to become our next president.
I believe that’s just American deaths, so that’s not counting all the Iraqi men, women and children who have died. Btw, I’m sure we all agree that an Iraqi life is equal in value to an American life.
“For God so loved the World. . .”
Let me know when that number gets over 40 million.
I’m going to highjack this abortion thread to talk about war with Iran. (just a fun light hearted conversation among friends.)
In today’s Washington Post, two ex-Senators write in an Op-Ed that the next President needs to attack Iran in order to prevent them from obtaining nuclear weapons.
It really isn’t a conspiracy to think that if McCain is elected we’ll go to war with Iran.
The interesting thing is if we attack Iran, they probably won’t go after us immediately. They’ll just bomb the Straits of Hurmoz, remove our access to oil, and America will see gas prices rise to $10.00 a gallon.
Anyway, interesting times.. interesting times…
And then you’ll start to care about other life besides that of the unborn?
I’m sure that’s not what you meant and you were trying to make a point, but it kind of just makes you seem cold and doesn’t pack much of a punch.
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Oh brother, this is one of the saddest statements you could make in this thread. I guess God only cares about unborn babies, right? What a joke!
Catalyst, To turn my last comment into a question (not rhetorical), don’t you think that Obama will also go after Iran since he said he would in the first debate between himself and McCain? I did appreciate the fact that Obama said he would sit down with the leader of Iran (that scored Obama alot of points in my book), but he didn’t sound too squeemish about going to war with them either.
I don’t think he will. But I agree with you that both candidates have sounded as though they favor war. Sadly, in America, that’s how you get elected.
I think Obama will surround himself with better advisors who will more use diplomatic means to neutralize Iran. While, McCain’s advisors are pretty much the same people who got us into war with Iraq.
consider this:
Obama Refuses to Answer Birth Certificate Lawsuit
Friday, October 24, 2008 4:16 PM
By: Kenneth R. Timmerman
A Pennsylvania lawsuit alleging that Barack Obama is not a “natural-born citizen†of the United States took an unusual twist this week, after a federally-mandated deadline requiring Obama’s lawyers to produce a “vault†copy of his birth certificate expired with no response from Obama or his lawyers.
The lawsuit, filed by former Pennsylvania Deputy Attorney General Philip J. Berg — a self-avowed supporter of Hillary Clinton — alleges that Barack Obama was born in Kenya and is thus “ineligible†to run for president of the United States. It demands that Obama’s lawyers produce a copy of his original birth certificate to prove that he is a natural-born U.S. citizen.
Berg’s suit and allegations have set off a wave of Internet buzz and rumors, though Obama could easily have put the matter to rest by providing the federal court with the basic documentation proving he is eligible to take the oath of a president. But Obama has apparently decided to deny the court and the public that documentation.
The Constitution provides that any U.S. citizen is eligible to become president if the person is 35 years of age or older and is a natural-born citizen; that is, born in the territorial United States.
By failing to respond to the Request for Admissions and Request for the Production of Documents within 30 days, Obama has “admitted†that he was born in Kenya, Berg stated this week in new court filings.
Berg released a long list of “admissions†he submitted to Obama’s lawyers on Sept. 15, and asked that they produce documents relating to Obama’s place of birth and citizenship.
Instead of responding, lawyers for Obama and the DNC asked the court to dismiss the case. But Judge R. Barclay Surrick of the Eastern District of Pennsylvania has issued no ruling in the case that would have given Obama’s lawyers more time.
“There are lots of legal ways to stonewall,†a well-placed Republican attorney told Newsmax, who was not authorized to comment officially on the case. “But failing to respond is not one of them.â€
“The first thing they teach you in law school,†he added, “is don’t put a complaint like this in a drawer. That’s how a nuisance case can become a problem.â€
The 30-day deadline for defendants to comply with a discovery request is set forth in the Federal Rules of Civil Procedures.
“It all comes down to the fact that there’s nothing from the other side,†Berg said after he filed a motion on Thursday for summary judgment.
“The admissions are there. By not filing the answers or objections, the defense has admitted everything. [Obama] admits he was born in Kenya. He admits he was adopted in Indonesia. He admits that the documentation posted online is a phony. And he admits that he is constitutionally ineligible to serve as president of the United States.â€
In a contentious case, lawyers on both sides will haggle over the production of documents, and will frequently go beyond the deadlines, several lawyers told Newsmax.
“The rules are more often complied with in the breech rather than the observance,†a senior trial attorney who has close ties to the Democrat Party, but is not involved in the current case, told Newsmax.
“Lawyers frequently do not return telephone calls or meet discovery deadlines because of sheer inadvertence. Therefore, we do not consider a failure to respond as a ‘violation,’†he said.
Allegations surrounding Obama’s place of birth have been swirling for months. Earlier this year, the Obama campaign sought to put down the rumors by making available a computer-generated Certification of Live Birth, issued in 2007 by the State of Hawaii. [See the Certification of Live Birth — Click Here.]
Respected conservative blogger Ed Morrissey called the Berg lawsuit a “conspiracy theory†that had been put to rest by the Obama campaign over the summer but â€has arisen like a zombie yet again to suck the credibility out of the conservative blogosphere.â€
However, the 2007 document produced by the Obama campaign omits key information that normally appears on birth certificates in the United States, including the name of the hospital where he was born, the size and weight of the baby, and sometimes the name of the doctor who delivered him.
In addition, the critics of the 2007 document note that Obama’s father is described as “African,†a term used today. The formal language in official documents at the time — 1961 — would have identified his race as “Negro†or “Colored.â€
The Web site “snarkbites.com†has produced a vault copy of a Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth from 1963, issued by the Hawaii Department of Health. [See the vault copy — Click Here.]
In addition to naming the hospital and more details about the baby, the 1963 vault copy also includes the “usual residence of the mother,†and the “usual occupation†of the father. None of this information appears on the 2007 Live Birth certificate produced by the Obama campaign.
Berg has been a perennial political candidate in Pennsylvania, having run in Democrat primaries for attorney general, lieutenant governor, governor, and other offices without success. He served as deputy attorney general of the State of Pennsylvania from 1972-1980.
His credibility was tarnished by work he did for the far-left “9/11 for the Truth†campaign, which alleged in a federal lawsuit that the collapse of the twin towers in New York was caused by “controlled demolition†ordered by the president of the United States.
Nevertheless, in recent weeks, lawsuits have been filed in seven additional states demanding that Barack Obama produce an original vault copy of his birth certificate, to dispel the rumors that he is not a natural-born United States citizen.
The latest suits have been filed in state and federal courts in Hawaii, Washington, California, Florida, Georgia, New York, and Connecticut to compel Obama to release his birth records.
Lawsuits in Washington and Georgia are seeking state superior courts to force the states’ secretary of state, as the chief state elections officer, to require Obama to produce original birth records from Hawaii, or else decertify him as a candidate for the presidency.
Ironically, Obama mentions his birth certificate in passing on Page 26 of his 1995 his memoir, “Dreams of My Father.†“I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school,†he wrote.
Lawyers for Obama and the DNC did not return calls for comment on the current status of the case, or explain why the Obama campaign did not simply put to rest the whole controversy by releasing the birth certificate that Obama apparently cherished as a teenager.
In the past, questions about Sen. John McCain’s legal status have arisen. McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone at a U.S. Army hospital. McCain had legal experts vet his constitutional qualifications, and he also disclosed a copy of his birth certificate.
© 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.
or consider this ..
Oh.. and it is more likely than not that Obama took 2 precious days off campaigning and going to Hawaii..
NOT to visit an ailing grandmother …
BUT to manufacture an acceptable birth certificate for running for President…
WOW, LL I usually take you as a pretty rational poster. Thinking that Obama has been able to dupe Columbia and Harvard, the Chicago Bar, The United States Senate, and now the entire country is pretty out there. Guess that’s the kind of ugliness a hate campaign stirs up (which McCain and Palin have definitely run). Oh well, it’s OK to believe what you believe I guess, just know that you are in a very small majority. In fact the way the state polls are heading now, this could be a landslide. Obama is leading by double digits in places like Virginia and North Carolina and is even in Montana and North Dakota. A democrat has not won those states in my lifetime.
PS – A small word of advise: don’t buy into the BS too much because years down the road it may come back to haunt you. I know you are all passionate about it now, but when things cool you will look back and regret some of it. I should no. I bought into the BS at CBC for years and it almost destroyed me. I beat myself up everyday for acting so foolish back then.
[Comment ID #35572 Will Be Quoted Here]Cat, I’d like to suggest you rent a video titled “Radio Bikini”. It has some camera footage of the atomic bomb tests at Bikini Atol in the late 1940′s. An underwater bomb test there sank several large ships in the lagoon, including a Japanese battleship and an aircraft carrier. You can see them flipped over like bathtub toys in the old footage.
Iran currently has no real way to control the Straight of Hormuz. They have tried it before, and lost their whole navy back in the 80′s. Once they have the atomic bomb, however, they WILL have a way to block the straight of Hormuz. I think this is the real reason the US and western powers do not want Iran to get the bomb.
I don’t totally buy into the news articles, but they are things to ponder.
Why WONT Obama and his lawyers settle the birth certificate issue once and for all? I see questions about it back to July and they still have not offered satisfactory proof that I can find. Why are they stalling? If he was indeed born in Hawaii.. then fine.. but answer the question and qut stonewalling and avoiding and trying to bury it as many seem to think.
All settled now: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp