Now that the election is over we can finally move on to other things right? Well not quite yet. There is still one big political hot pot brewing in our country and I think we should touch on it. It's been a major topic of conversation before but it's worth noting that from this election 11 states passed measures that put bans on gay marriage, and 8 of them eliminated civil unions. Story Here. As a result here in California, there have been massive protests; freeways and roads have been shut down, and people have set up shop outside many different churches, specifically the Church of Latter Day Saints, but even Saddleback (Rick Warren) has been targeted. Story Here.
Personally, I think it's pretty specific and clear that God is against homosexuality and marriage should be a sacred covenant between a man and a woman. Having that belief should not be considered hatred or bigotry if it's not used to attack or discriminate against gay people, but rather a reflection of ones own personal choices. Where I struggle with this issue is when the government begins telling others what they can and can't do in their personal lives, especially when there is no visible harm to self, others, or society as a whole. There are lots of things in the Bible that are not reflected in the world (or the church for that matter) yet I don't see state measures stopping them (i.e. sex before marriage or greed). Throw in the fact that Christians have become the mouthpiece against gay marriage, and I cringe at the harm being done. As stated in the article "it's very unfortunate and embarrassing that the (Christian religion) is in large part responsible for this act of bigotry," the Rev. Ed Bacon told The Associated Press following his Sunday sermon.
So how do we balance the clear direction that a gay relationship is wrong with the clear message that we are called to love and serve everyone, "even the least of these." Is passing bans on gay marriage really the right message Christians want to send? Why not let the chips fall as they may and use our time and energy to reach out to those in sexual sin rather then push them away?
For me there are 2 issues that are related to the gay marriage issue.
The first is the practical side of exchange of property and wealth, hospital visitation, maybe family health care and the like. I am all for that. I don’t care what it is called exactly, I think there should be a mechanism to provide family benefits to gay couples.
The other is how gay marriage is a change from the historical view and perspective of the institution of marriage around the world. I think that it is a big thing to change what marriage has been around the world for the entire history of humanity. Things like that should not be changed hastily or at all.
No one is telling anyone what they can or cannot do in their private lives. It is simply stating what and/or how the government recognizes a relationship. The government can’t legislate a relationship and no one is trying to make homosexuality illegal. We have moved beyond that. We may not want the govt involved involved in marriage but we do if we are in a divorce. So, the govt is going to be involved. I think that it is partially ridiculous to look to the government for validation of your relationship. Yet, the financial piece is huge.
Our pastor (yes we actually do go to church even though we are detoxing but only when we have the energy to go) was speaking about this very topic on Sunday. He was saying perhaps we need to drop the peripheral issues as our focus and get back to sharing the Gospel and the Love of Christ with these individuals. He also asked how we can expect those who haven’t chosen God and the Bible as their moral compass to base their life decisions and lifestyle upon its principals. The spiritual transformation needs to take place first before a person will adhere to the word of God.
So in essence, Christians who are fighting against same sex marriage are getting the cart before the horse. Could it be that issues such as these are setting Christians up for the persecution of the ‘last days’ spoken of in the Bible? If so, we (or I should say they) may be cooking our goose so to speak.
This is a primary reason some of us want to distance ourselves from the rantings of the religious right. Maybe it’s self preservation as well as a desire to allow the truth about God and our faith to rise!
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Wow, so well put. Because of the lack of fruit I see coming out of these gay marriage battles, this is exactly what I have thought for many months now.
What church is this? Sounds great.
While these comments are refreshing, I’ve worn myself out debating this topic. From examples like “Disgusted”‘s comments in the “Meaning of Life” thread,
I just do not see “Christ” in any of these “Christians”.
While Olbermann is obviously one of those raging left wing wackos, I think his questions in this video are valid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnHyy8gkNEE
Unlike Olbermann my immediate family, a very close friend, and several colleagues were affected by this. In no way was this an effective testimony, nor will it be effective at curtailing the behavior.
Just look at Catholic Church history to see how effective it is to try to legislate away sin. Even torture didn’t work. Must we repeat history?
Well hmm, you beat me Brian K. I was going to link to that very same Keith Olbermann video. Whether or not you agree with his politics, he makes some very valid points.
I have typed 3 different responses to BrianK and the Olbermann piece. None of them said what I meant. I do not think this will either.
If I had been in Cali, I would not have voted either way, I think. I see both sides of the issue and sympathize with both sides. At the same time, passion like Olbermann showed does not necessarily make for a strong argument. The slave marriage thing is completely different. I also know a mixed couple who had to deal with the illegality of mixed marriages in some states. Trust me, these things are different. In both of those circumstances, the law made it difficult, impossible or illegal to have any relationship at all. Prop 8 does not do that.
On the other side, legitimate concerns matched with “Adam and Steve” signs is horrible and hateful. The rub is that most of the arguments against same sex marriage are not hateful even if the people are.
Once again on the other side, I am concerned about how legalizing gay marriage will change how relationships will be taught in schools. I also understand that parents are in control of there home and their kids. I am continually surprised that my teenage son does not simply follow the pattern of his friends. For every argument, I understand the counter argument.
As a christian, I don’t find it to be my duty to make non-christians act like christians. So, I just don’t know. I do know that it is the right thing to have some mechanism to recognize the practical day to day issues that committed gay couples face. For example, I have a friend from college who is gay and has adopted a child. While we have not talked in a long while, I am sure that he and his partner are better parents than some of the folks that are in the church. These things can and should be fixed.
Thanks for your thoughts Fred. Sounds like you are wrestling with the exact same things as I once did.
I was brought up homeschooled with my parents afraid, even terrified, of the public school system. They actively discourage college as a breeding ground of sin and temptation. My wife and her friends were brought up in the TCS/TCHS/PBC school system.
We had a conversation, all of us sheltered kids, talking about the reality of the way we were brought up, vs. what our parents were afraid of.
I think we all agreed that, in retrospect, the kids that went to public school and had had to “face the world” on a daily basis ended up having a far greater conviction of their beliefs, and also the ability to relate to non-religious people. Those of us on the inside had been told what to think and feel as well as what was right, and what was wrong. Later when that didn’t line up with reality, we all had a major crises of identity.
Personally I wouldn’t worry about your son. If he likes girls now, he’ll like girls later. No teaching or indoctrination will change that. What he might learn is how to understand and relate to those far different from him. A far more valuable lesson than any I have ever learned.
I am not worried about my son being gay. I was thinking more about more standard things all kids face like cheating, making out, drinking, drugs. My sister was a married woman who had various lesbian affairs. One of my close family friends has a son who is gay and we were pretty involved in that. So, I am also not too worried if that issue does come up. It would not be new to me.
If we were a laissez-faire, libertarian, live and live type of nation I would be less worried about the societal affects. Yet, people on both sides of almost all issues not only want their way, they want everyone else to sign on as well. Whether it is race, sexual orientation, unions or whatever, no solution is ever enough. For example, my wife promotes improved educational opportunities for minorities and the poor. This morning she recieved an email from a woman saying that they were making a mistake by having non-blacks working with the African American commission. The person in question was a hispanic who is a national figure who has helped school districts improve their test scores across all races. This is the kind of thing that worries me.
Couldn't agree more Brian. I was raised in the most liberal, non-Christian home a person could be in. But at 13 I became a Christian and by 16 I was a youth pastors dream: preaching, teaching, praying, reading, and faithfully attending everything church. I went to public high schools and public universities. Today at 29 I love nothing more then Jesus Christ, but for my career I work in Hollywood, surrounded by some very dark people. Does it get to me sometimes? Hell yeah. But does it change me? No way. A relationship based on Jesus, for Jesus, in Jesus, all about Jesus can never be lost from the evils of the world. Wish more people (including parents who shelter their children) would get that. To me faith is a verb (action) not a noun (thing). We all must take action to trust in God's complete control over our lives.
I hear you Fred. This is what makes me struggle with this issue as well. A small percentage of all social groups have a narrow agenda and take it upon themselves to promote it at all costs. Guess that's where the trust and faith factor comes in that I mentioned above. We just got to believe that God will protect those who serve Him from the contaminated portion of the pool.
At this point in CA. I believe homosexuals have the same rights as normal married people, except they just can’t get a marriage license. The thing I have the most problem with is we can see the effects of what homosexual marriage would do to a heterosexual family by looking at Mass. There have been a couple of stories about heterosexual families who were given no say in what was taught to their kids in public school (as early as kindergarten). I would like to be able to teach my children what I believe marriage is supposed to be-in accordance with the Word of God and don’t want public school re-defining or blatantly opposing what I say; and I would not be allowed to if Prop 8 fails. The reason I said fails is because of all the legal issues that it has to go through to really be finalized.
Who would be stopping you from teaching your children whatever you want?
The problem isn’t that this person could not teach his children that homosexual marriage is wrong. The problem is that when society in general legitimizes an aberrant lifestyle, the young people are influenced by this. The child will be hearing endorsement of this lifestyle from EVERY AVENUE except his parents. Who will he believe? The teachers (that the kid has been hopefully taught by his parents to respect) or his parents (who he hopefully ALSO respects?
For instance, Bill Clinton’s definition of sex has influenced a huge number of kids. Tons are having oral sex and even contracting STD’s from this because “it isn’t really sex”. Even Christian young people are excusing their behavior. Some are having sex and say it’s okay because “we’re married in God’s eyes.
Society’s drifting away from biblical values will definitely influence Christians, unfortunately. It should be the other way around, but there are a lot of weak believers out there. We are, after all, sinners saved by grace. Cultural mores do act to preserve a society, whether the majority in that society are Christians or not. When those mores are removed, the society suffers the effects.
SICK, SICK, SICK. I can not believe it!!! Has anyone else seen the CBC website about Faith Harvest? They are now using hungry Cambodian children to help raise money for the latest capital campaign. This is too far. This is wrong. Why oh why do you people keep giving these lunatics your hard earned cash. Fine, preach tithing. But combating the flailing economies certain affect on your revenue stream by flashing photos of hungry children in the third world is truly a new low. I would pray for a bolt of lightning to strike the domes but it would probably see it as a sign that God somehow approves of you guys. Mark Estes should be ashamed for narrating this video. Mark, you and I both know that the vast majority of that money will never ever end up in Cambodia. Why can’t you guys on that hill just for once be honest about where the money is going to go.
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I have to agree. I watched the video and somehow I kept hearing “we’ll retire the debt on the rocky butte campus”, from 2004 (?) That somehow turned into purchasing the Vancouver campus/ice rink instead.
Once you give them some $$$, it is theirs to do with as they please.
There are NO checks or balances on leaderships’ decisions, they will bait and switch like a used car lot.
RETIRE THE DEBT. Perfect example, thank you. Have they repented to the congregation for that one yet? I don’t think so. I swear, I’d rather drink water from the Willamette River then go to that church. Jason and Angie Prosser should be livid that they’re being used for propaganda. I’m sure they don’t mind, but you’d think that people would start catching on after awhile. I don’t even know what else to say about this.
I totally get this argument. But then on the other side I feel like, wait a minute that’s not trusting in God to protect your children. Being a new parent myself I am sold on the fact that I cannot stop ALL harm to my daughter. I just have to trust that what I can’t do, God will do for me. That is the ultimate faith I must live by faith. His agenda will go forth no matter what anyone else tries to do, right? A good parent can only protect their children and will explain their belief system to their children and let their children decide if they want to follow that belief system or not. I don’t believe enough people remember how they grew up. For me, two of my moms best friends were gay men, one of which was so close to the family I called him uncle Daniel. I was taught all about the gay lifestyle from 8 years old on. But guess what? It didn’t make me want girls any less when I turned 11. Why? Because God had a call on my life that no amount of worldly influence could disrupt it. I had the most liberal, hippy parents ever, yet I turned out a Christian conservative. If I raise my daughter right and work my butt off to ensure that she has a positive view of men, marriage, and relationships and she still chooses a gay lifestyle then there’s really nothing I can do about it, except love her to death and pray that God will grab her heart like He did mine. To me it really doesn’t matter one’s family, where one comes from, or what one is taught in grade school…Jesus is more powerful then them ALL.
. I do agree with you here. I do know that the Lord is able to protect our kids. It makes it a WHOLE lot easier to raise them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, however, when the society isn’t so “in your face” and antithetical to the values you are trying to instill.
Anonymous, why don’t you try living in a third-world foreign country where Christians are less than 1 % of the population, persecution and violence are rampant, government censors Christian media, and society is always “in your face” by not only teaching anti-ethical and anti-christian values but ridicules and discriminates against you for being Christian and there’s nothing you can do about it because the government is very corrupt and anti-discrimination laws are useless. Yet, in places like what I just mentioned, churches are flourishing, people are giving their life to Christ and Christians are stronger and more faithful.
How would that be possible?
I am always humbled by Christians from other countries. American churches are not the best at discipleship. Our churches have serious spiritual issues.
Okay, I grew up in an atheistic home. Many of my family friends are outspoken strong atheists. Growing up, I had a a lot of “in your messages” against church and religion. Most of my high school friends were liberal and mostly atheists. I experimented with New Ageism and Eastern philosophies before finding Christ.
Yet, I am now a firm believer in Christ. Why? One day a Christian girl witnesses to me. Her words stood out to me the most. Is the voice of God not strongest of any other sounds of several seas (of culture)?
Okay, so lets assume that our culture is Christianized and the Christian laws are legislated. That will not guarantee that a person is a Christian. It makes us more comfortable. In the past, there were many church attenders that were not Christians. It’s a scary thought to think of how many people in the churches are not saved. They tend to think that they don’t need Christ because they are basically good people.
Deism is much more dangerous in my opinion because it is very easy to hide under the mask of religion.
I’m not arguing with you there. I do know that we have it VERY good and soft comparatively here in the US. The “persecution” I hear complaint about is NOTHING compared to being a believer killed because it was found out you attended a bible study.
But there’s nothing wrong with WANTING our society to have strong values and thrive rather than continue to suffer the decline it’s going through. Of course, good values will not send you to heaven, so the primary focus again must be sharing Christ with our lives instead of constant political posturing the church does today.
Proverbs 22:6 (English Standard Version)
6(A) Train up a child in the way he should go;
even when he is old he will not depart from it.
Deut. 6:6,7
6And(G) these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. 7(H) You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
These verses make me feel strongly that parents have a very critical role in guarding and training their children.
I found this article to be very interesting:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/03/081103fa_fact_talbot?currentPage=all
FTA:
Great article Brian….I found this information to be really interesting:
The Spokesman-Review recently published a guest op-ed regarding the role of church and state in marriage. It is entitled “Remove churches’ role in making marriage legal” and can be found here: http://www.spokesmanreview.com/tools/story_pf.asp?ID=269471
I thought the column was well written and thought provoking. I encourage everyone to take a look at it and share your thoughts.
I read the spokesman article. It had some good thoughts. What is misunderstood is that the civil marriage is the only marriage honored by the state. If you get married at a church but do not get a marriage license at the county office, you are not legally married.
People want the state out of the bedroom but they are already there in a sense. We want them there for disputes related to child custody, divorce, legal separation, property and wealth transfer. The true reason that the state is involved in marriage is so that it can mitigate disputes. The state’s primary role is not moral but physical and tangible.
As a note: I don’t mean for my points here to be for or against alternative marriage arrangements.
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Interesting…and well put. Although I can’t agree with everything she is saying here, I do like the point that it is hypocritical of the church to push an agenda against gay marriage on society (which the Bible says is wrong) but completely ignor divorce (which the Bible says is wrong as well) and currently causes far greater damage on our society. I really don’t like it when people use the Bible in bits and pieces like that.
I just wanted to stop in and say that I’m a pan-sexual Christian and I am glad to finally see some “Christians” who don’t hate us! We may disagree on whether or not my sexual preferences are sinful, but I think Prop 8 should not pass. I think it is disgraceful for couples to be given rights and have them suddenly snatched away. I personally don’t think you have to call it “marriage”, call it “shmarriage” if it makes you happy. But gay couples should have the same economic rights as everyone else. We’re talking about inheritance, insurance, Social Security, the right to adopt children. I think it’s sad how many “Christians” feel threatened- we’re not going to change you! Sexual orientation is something you’re born with, so it’s not something you can change. Gay parents can raise straight children- after all, don’t straight parents produce gay children?
Proposition 8 – the Musical