Ted Haggard is returning to the church. However, this time he's coming back, not as a pastor, but as a Christian Businessman. And as many of you know, a Christian Businessman is just like any other businessman, except when he loses money, he blames the devil.
From the article:
– "Earlier this month, a guest took the pulpit at Open Bible Fellowship in Morrison, Ill., a 350-member church surrounded by cornfields. The speaker was an insurance salesman from Colorado named Ted Haggard.
The former superstar pastor, disgraced two years ago in a sex-and-drugs scandal, had returned — this time as a Christian businessman preaching a message that was equal parts contrition and defiance. Haggard linked his fall to being molested in second grade and apologized again." –
You see. Haggard didn't cheat on his wife, lie to his church and use illegal drugs because he's a sinful human being. No he did all that because he was molested in 2nd grade. And as many of you church-goers understand, the key to success in the ministry is to be molested at an early age. Update: Because that last sentence seems to have hit a nerve, let me just say that this is something JP and I have been joking about for years. Primarily because our youth pastors at City Bible Church (Bobby Mac and Dougie) both admitted to being abused when they were children. It's as though past abuse is a pre-requisite for becoming a youth pastor.
The last line is a bit rude and insensitive. As a victim of childhood abuse myself, I will say that it is insensitive comments like this that repel me from other Christians.
Thanks for letting me know. My goal is to offend everyone who reads this blog.
I agree.
OTOH, maybe he was just trolling to garner more hits to the site.
“Christians” are one of the few in the animal-world who tend to devour their injured.
According to the article — which was posted on a secular, not Christian website — Mr. Haggard:
In wake of the growing list of media-figures —and even former Presidents — who get caught with their pants down (as it were), and that daily, and the many subsequent attempts to spin and blow off their sins, say they mis-spoke, were mis-quoted, or mis-understood, I’m satisfied with how he handled it.
I mean, after having confessed the above — and unlike so many others, also resigned his various positions — what more do you want?
-joe
I kinda feel sorry for Ted. He was on the same level of Dobson, Roberts, and Strange less then 5 years ago. But now, well his sinful fall from grace has shown the hypocrisy of the evangelical right…they love you when you appear to be doing well, but the completely ignore you when your sin is revealed. I bet you every one of those guys has a secret life going on. That’s why I’m so opposed to it all. The don’t represent Christ to me. Remember? The church should be a hospital, caring for the sick? Jesus loved even the least of these, right? But these guys, they only care about the rich and healthy. If you have any “known” sin in your life, you are an outcast. Really sad.
I disagree a bit with some of the comments made here. It is not that anyone is attacking Ted Haggard because of his fall, but because he is trying to re-insinuate himself into public ministry again. And he is doing this even though he has not submitted to the process of restoration mandated by his former church. In addition, he is blaming others for his sin and talking about how the revelation of his fall should have been used as an opportunity to take the Gospel worldwide. These are the words and deeds of a sociopath, in my opinion.
I think the Church in America needs to be “de-scoped” so that its positions of leadership are no longer such a tempting target for ambitious men. We can start by making church far less lucrative for professional clergy.
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Damn Cat, I must be going to hell then cause I haven’t been offended yet?
Wow, I’m still amazed that some of you people think sexual abuse is a joke. This must be what happens after being in a sheltered Christian school or church bubble for many years.
I’m all for offending people…but I don’t recall joking about child abuse…then again:
A pedophile and a little boy were walking through the woods in the dark. The little boy said “I’m scared”. The pedophile responded, “You’re scared? I’m the one that has to walk out of here alone.”
A
pedophileclown and a little boy were walking through the woods in the dark. The little boy said “I’m scaredâ€. Thepedophileclown responded, “You’re scared? I’m the one that has to walk out of here alone.â€If you’re going to tell the joke, tell it right.
Reformer –surprised you are feeling sorry for Haggard. We don’t and its not because his ‘hidden sin’ as you refer to his public meltdown, was exposed. Yes everyone on earth probably has something they want to hide –none of us are righteous. That is the predominant theme of the Bible.
This was no everyday person on the street. Haggard was the President of the Evangelical Association of which 47,000 Churches were a member and over 300,000 people were represented. So when he fell from grace he took a whole lot more down than just his own name. He was known for starting the ‘World Prayer Center” in the epicenter of religious weirness -Colorado, Springs.
If you read the internet the day the story came out that he was back in the pulpit, there were almost 500 stories on it in a short amount of time. He managed to make everyone furious from the gays in San Francisco to Christians. No one seemed to like what he had to say, religious leaders were only a small percentage.
The part that was and is obvious is he is in need of attention. You are so right on that account that one moment he was rubbing shoulders with everyone –including Frank at the Intercessor Conference. We attended the conference and witnessed the adulation first hand there in Portland. They couldn’t bow down enough to him then. Suddenly he is turned out to the streets with shouts of “I never knew him.” So which is it?
It seemed obvious that at his 2 year anniversary of the scandal he just couldn’t stand hiding in the background any longer. Though he cried how much it hurt his family and him personally, he had to dredge it all up again and get more national media attention, which he knew would happen.
This behavior is akin to a sociopath who thrives on attention and will seek it out even if its painful. Its everything we’ve said here for a long time –if you create this elite systems than don’t be surprised when the kings want their throne. He seems to want something and he’s decided on his own he is well. He’s well enough to get into the limelight again it would appear.
See…the “clown” makes it more of a joke…which is good in the right circumstance…but not what I was going for.
By using “pedophile” here I’m simply going for the “You’re a sick sick man” response…which undoubtable a number of people (including myself) have thought.
Abuse is not a joking matter…unless it’s the subject of a joke.
They ain’t real smart in Morrison – folks named the town after Jim, you know. It’s just north of Prophetstown which they named after a Winnebago Indian who had a taste for natural hallucinogenics. Thankfully, Abe Lincoln ran them out of town during the Black Hawk wars. That whole emancipation proclamation thing was probably penitence. Morrison is just east of Clinton, which was named after Bill. Reagan was born in that area, in Tampico, where they invented feminine products. There’s a real nice Amish furniture store up there. Ted was probably there to buy one of their shaker-style bidets.
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Whether or not you think it’s funny, it’s not surprising that it is often true. People with childhood trauma often compensate for it in their adult lives in order to feel in control, to assuage feelings of guilt, and to make sure it doesn’t happen to others. They become crusaders as a part of the coping and healing process. I’ve met countless young people who felt called to ministry because of all the hurt that they themselves suffered. I’d have to say that in many cases they are unconsciously trying to fulfill a personal need rather than having a true sense of their ability to help others. I’m not saying we can’t help others through our own pain, but sometimes that desire is misplaced and they would be better off having a “normal” job where they can impact the people around them, rather than trying to save the world.
Hmmm, I wonder if I’m coping for something by writing on this blog?
However, I agree with Church Detox. That kind of thirst for attention is borderline sociopath behavior. The people who still support Ted are morons.
Yeah, I’m surprised myself. But there is one thing about me that even I don’t get sometimes. I really don’t like BS from anyone. And I am usually the first to say something rude to a person who is a total f**k up (as Haggard has been). However, I have complete grace for people who are truly sorry/repentant about their wrongdoing (as Jesus was for me). Now I have no idea if ol Haggard is truly sorry for what he has done, I leave judging a man’s heart to God. All I can speak to is a persons outside actions, and from what I’ve seen Haggard seems like he’s changed. Just like Jim Baker back in the day. I was mainly feeling sorry for the guy because he’s been such an outcast for committing sin…again, he who hasn’t sinned is free to cast the first stone.
Hi Reformer
Two things I look for to determine if someone has changed.
[1] they make serious committed efforts to rectify the wrongs they have done [which means they spend a number of years at it];
[2] they don’t try to make loud, splashy, public, attention-garnering ‘comebacks’.
What has Haggard done to compensate those he has wronged? Other than talk? Has he paid for anyone’s counseling? Has he named and testified against his suppliers? Don’t think so… don’t think so.
This whole business of ‘look at me, I’ve repented, everybody!’ reveals the same total lack of humility [and insight, and even minimal understanding of ... who God is, and who is God [hint: not the pudgy gents behind the lecterns; nor the lacquered ladies, either] that got him into the stew in the first place.
If Haggard ever repents, you’ll know it because he’ll disappear. He’ll go quietly to work in some downtrodden neighborhood, or in the back office of some small charity concern, and he will do nothing, ever again, to advertise himself or set himself above any of those he serves. If ever a book is written about his life and repentance after he REALLY does repent, not one penny of revenue from that book will be taken by him.
Anything else is just another con job.
*****
A few thoughts on abuse. T’ain’t funny. Period. And nobody who has ever lost, or nearly lost, a child to a murderous pedophile [or cares about anyone who has] will find that joke anything but appalling. Maybe y’all are just too young and inexperienced to know any better. I hope that’s so, because the alternative explanation isn’t encouraging.
OTOH, there’s a definite risk for people who’ve genuinely been abused to get ‘stuck’ in Great Guru roles because it’s awfully easy to confuse attention/dominance with healing. The ones who are pursuing genuine healing figure this out, sooner or later, and move on. The ones who aren’t – and sadly, many abusers were first themselves abused [then decide, apparently, to join the gang rather than fight it] – never will, because there’s no payoff for them in figuring it out.
Plenty of these folks go into psychology and psychiatry, too. They don’t all get churchy. And they do just as much horrendous damage, as therapists and ‘thought leaders’ in the mental health community, as they would do if they were ministers.
Its amazing that you say these “bad” things about City Bible but you still go there. If it truly was leading you down a path of “no return” why wouldnt you leave rather then dig yourself out of the pit of hell.
It just crossed my mind several times so I thought I would ask. Its just a quesstion
And yes “bad” things that happen to one self is what usually turns us to God not many people who live a peacful/perfect life come to Jesus they usually dont see the need. Even more so if they did not know Jesus until they were adults. So its understandable that something bad has happened to many pastors but with the grace of God they too have/can over come/recieve peace/healing. Some face their pain/mistakes and some live with it for a long time untill God brings them to a place of heal.
yes, it’s called CODEPENDENCY. It’s hardly confined to Christian circles. My introduction to the recovery movement (no joke) was when I was briefly a nursing student. They started off to make sure everyone knew that codependency is more rampant in nursing than any other profession. Social work is right up there tool. I think it would be fair to say that a lot of churches are also more knowledgable about this than you think and talk about motive and ministry.
That said, I think it is pretty repulsive that you would even joke about this. It is fair to question the motives of people in ANY helping profession. But to turn it into a joke spinning off into cracks about pedophiles, I think just tells a lot about where you people are coming from.
I cannot imagine Jesus telling jokes about pedophiles OR making cracks about how molestation must be a requirement for being a youth pastor. He would address people’s motives, sure, but he wouldn’t be making sick jokes about something that is not a joke at all.
You people have just destroyed any small bit of credibility you might have except with other assholes such as yourselves.
Ted will be spotlighted in a new HBO documentary “The Trials of Ted Haggard” directed by Alexandra Pelosi coming out (no pun intended) January 29th. He is also scheduled to appear on Larry King and Oprah later this month. Should be interesting, article is at gazette.com
WOW…this gets worse and worse!
Disgraced pastor Haggard facing new sex allegations
Lets remember that it was Pastor Ted Haggard who was the special speaker at the Intercessor Conference held here in Portland at the church up on the hill! They could not have condoned him more or given more special priveledges.
So the question is where was the discernment of the shepherds then at that time?
How about now? With an entire building filled with “prophetic people” wasn’t there one word of warning about this? How about having an affair with your intern? Why didn’t someone see an HBO Documentary in the future?
When we start holding these leaders accountable for their lack of insight, truth or shepherding skills than maybe we won’t have to see another Ted Haggard.
How does City Church explain this one, or is amnesia the only alternative to these leaders that keep falling in their midst? “I never knew him.”
Sorry that one has already been used!
Wasn’t it this same group who then asked Richard and Lindsay Roberts to be their special speakers at the same conference? Oh yes! That was right before the scandal broke out at ORU causing them to step down.
Great track record so far boys! Maybe your group should do some re-thinking about what or “Who” is important.
Too bad it takes a blog-asphere to keep you accountable!
and another sex scandel has been made known of in Colorado this week concerning Ted. So I dont think he deserves to have any time behind a pulpit. He’s the devil himself.
ex-dom asked:
“…of the shepherds…” — exactly right. You see, there were many people who discerned these things, but they were not listened to. It is a very strange system.
Let’s say you are a person of prayer. If you hear something from the Holy Spirit about the church, who do you tell? Well, you can tell your elder. He will probably say, “Thank you very much” and you will get no feedback.
You might be on a prayer team for your elder, in which case he will be a bit more attentive to your message, but the end result will still be “Thank you very much.” If it appears that you are fairly accurate, you will get a reputation for hearing from the Lord. But it still changes nothing.
If you relate something positive, you will get a pat on the back. If you relate something negative, there will be no feedback and eventually you will be labeled as not being in agreement with the leadership.
The leadership have isolated themselves from the prophets (they will vigorously disagree). But the proof is the above scenario.
Variety (a hollywood/entertainment magazine) gave a non-Christain opinion of the Haggard HBO documentary.
The Trials of Ted Haggard
Suppose if these megachurch pastors and Christian celebrities were completely taken off the public eye, will they stop functioning? Can they not survive without attention.
Seriously, I can forgive and understand that people (including pastors) can sin, have their flaws and can start over. No one is ever beyond God’s grace.
what irks me a bit is that he seems to be wanting attention. I’m not interested in the documentary.
But the article makes a good point when it mentions something about the megachurch world that makes these scandals and things happen in way. What do you think? Does the megachurch culture actually push people into this or make it worse?
So… he’s getting more attention?!
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/01/29/lkl.ted.haggard/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
Very sick man….
Nina, I think the mega-church structure is the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity! It elevates and promotes normal people who often come from humble beginnings to places they shouldn’t go on the basis of their righteousness and holiness to God. Do you realize how backward that is? I believe celebrity in the church is a very sick thing. I don’t care who you are, how much faith you have, how much you love God, or how dedicated you are to living “holy,” once you gain true celebrity status, make lots of money, and have thousands (if not millions) of people treating you like Jesus’ right hand man/woman you become a different person. We are all human with sinful tendencies. EVERYONE is going to make mistakes and fall into sinful traps…that’s just life. However, the average person can come out with it and find support and people who will help them deal with their problems, away from mass public scrutiny. There’s more realness to their sin problem and more help to overcome it. The mega-church celebrity on the other hand has to face their mistakes in the public eye, and so they use cover-ups and secrets to protect their image. This usually spirals out of control and what could have been a simple “forgive me, I messed up” turns into a sick game of cat and mouse with the media and the public. It’s quite shameful. So I don’t necessarily think the mega-church culture causes people to sin (we all do that) but I do believe the mega-church structure exaggerates these events and makes them worse. I just wish churches could stay small and individualistic, focusing on worshiping God, reaching the poor, and saving souls. And pastors should be more concerned about leading people and changing their lives then becoming rich and famous. It’s all quite sad!
It’s beginning to make more sense to me now … at least, in the sense that often people in ministry are said to be the most insecure of Christians – driven by the need to earn a measure of their salvation by serving God – or some need to prove themselves a better servant than the masses by their full time service, by building a church and amass a following … how often though is it that very insecurity that leads them to a very public downfall and humiliation before God and men?
Lately I’ve been thinking how the word tells us “lean not on your own understanding” – yet that is the very nature of sinful man – trying to get it all figured out – live by our wits – try to take command of our surroundings by our own power / understanding … and then there’s God – trying to get through to us with Life and Truth but we are blind because of our flesh … so does God work through our understanding to reach us?
Imagine a parent’s relationship with their children – a child of 5-6 asks “where do babies come from” and so the parent replies “the hospital” … and that satisfies the child for awhile, until the child asks “where do hospitals get babies” and a more detailed answer is required …
So when we are born anew and the context of our undertstanding God is the institutional church, is it any wonder that God reaches out to us there with answers appropriate for our spiritual age/maturity?
Looking back on my own walk and the encounters I’ve had with the Father, He has told me things that at the time fit with my institutional understanding, but now having grown out of that, cause me to wonder whether it was God speaking to me at all … and I think maybe God says to us “IF I worked the way you think I work, within the context of man’s religious system, then THIS is what I would have you do to accomplish my will there” … and so we endeavor to be obedient to His word to us … but in the context of institutionalized religion, whatever we hear from God is subject to the combined wills of everyone in the Church – everyone has their image of what / whom God is and so the man with a vision or word from God soon finds it at odds with the understanding of everyone else in the church so the vision is co-opted / perverted by the understanding of man.
That I suspect is why whenever God desired to really get hold of a man or woman, God led them into the wilderness to have that person all to Himself without the corrupting influence of man. And I think the process of God speaking to someone in an institutional situation is in fact a part of the pruning process – for the person who hears God but continually sees the Word of God perverted by man in an institutional situation becomes frustrated with men and yearns for God … Paul wrote something about the benefit of frustration – that it is intended for growth and freedom:
So as much as I have railed against the IC, as disgusted as I am with public spectacles like the Haggard situation, I can see the good/value in it, as it is nothing more than frustration / futility working within man’s religious system – working within the faulty understanding / assembly of men – to birth truth, to birth sons and daughters, to set men free of the lies of flesh and the enemy.
In the end, I think, it all serves to deliver us to the place where we are no longer insecure in our salvation or love for the Lord, but can instead receive the gift of salvation with gratitude and thanksgiving and no longer feel the need to earn some measure of it or to show ourselves better than anyone else who needs the cross.
With someone like Ted, then the cameras / mics are gone, when his 15 minutes are up, he’ll be left with himself, where I hope he finds grace and comes to the knowledge that he doesn’t deserve it, he can not earn it, it is simply a free gift of love from the Father.
Could it be that all this is simply is just God’s way of burning the selfishness / flesh out of us? This life as God’s furnace? If so, then it seems strange to me that I would curse the flames rather than the dross that must be burned out of me …
Enough of my rambling – back to slinging plaster now
Excellent insights all, Jack.
This brings to mind when James and John were jockeying for the top spot among the Disciples, and Jesus rebuked them:
I saw this same thing years ago in PBC with a friend from California who, when I asked him if he wanted to work with young people, replied with scorn, “Look, I have higher aspirations than to just be a measly youth pastor!” Well, he eventually had his way, and since the early 90s has been the Senior Pastor of a successful MFI church in Western Oregon.
It’s been posited that many of these Pastors haven’t so much founded “local churches” as they’ve started businesses, or even mini-kingdoms, and run them as such, which I believe is correct.
And similarly, just like their counterparts in the world who are never satisfied with just having their own company, but must ever crush all competition to become the biggest and mightiest (e.g., Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch, and the like), it seems to me many of these Senior Pastors, instead of having as their supreme goal to spread the Gospel and Love of Jesus, are evidently more interested in striving to increase their personal prestige with bigger, more gaudy buildings, huge entourages including personal bodyguards, ever-increasing programs and conferences, the creation of huge staffs (with goofy positions like “Pastor of Media” or “Cultural Pastor”), and the buying of helicopters or even jets to whisk them away like the celebrities they emulate.
All of which seems to have more to do with an insecure need to assert their petty dominance and alpha-male status, rather than with a genuine call from God, does it not?
The IC in a nutshell. Reminds me of what Luther said:
-joe
Good morning, Joe.
A grieving friend of mine is really struggling with the faith now, when all the dreams and visions and words she had for the reconciliation of her marriage, seemingly came to not with the unexpected, drug-induced death of her husband, from whom she was separated.
Her situation reminded me of that time 15 years ago when I was separated and praying for reconciliation and healing, with words, visions that seemingly came to naught when the divorce was finalized. It took many years, but I came to see that the words and visions all came to pass, I just didn’t understand them at the time. You could say that having received the word / vision, I “bent” them to fit my understanding and my own desires / will.
At the time, those prophetic experiences gave me great comfort, even if I had misunderstood them. However, when they did not come to pass in the manner I expected, it did shake my faith to the core, even had me questioning whether I had heard God in the first place, or perhaps even that I had been listening to and following the deceiver!
But it was just a lesson on: “lean not on your own understanding” and “my thoughts / ways are higher than your thoughts / ways”, etc. In other words, the Father was teaching me the importance of “context” – His Spiritual Word must be understood in context with His will, His ways, etc.
The IC is simply the creation of men, who have likely heard God, but took His word out of context and responded to His spiritual word in a carnal manner. For example, how many men have heard the Father say “build My church” and never ventured to ask Him “how” but just responded by buying property and putting up a building, rather than simply reaching out to friends and neighbors in love, adding to the kingdom by being a friend and servant to those the Lord leads across your path?
I can assure you, the Lord NEVER intended for any man to “build MY Church” by erecting a building, creating a denomination or affiliation, or any of that nonsense. Instead, it’s like it says in Acts, “many were added to the Church” by nothing more than taking the good news to the streets. How anyone can fall for the notion of “ministry” being the assembly of believers in a dedicated building and preaching the gospel message to them week after week – in other words, preaching salvation to those who are already saved – it’s insanity. How is accumulating those who are already saved building a church? Jesus has already built the Church by virtue of saving people and the only way to continue building the Church is by adding NEW believers through seeking out the lost.
The IC is virtually useless in Spiritual/Kingdom terms – a carnal attempt at accomplishing the Word of God. And the men who seek to rise to the top of the heap are quite possibly the most misguided and carnal of all. Having committed themselves to their own understanding, there is no hope that they will ever understand a word from the Father in the spiritual context that He intended it.
As for the dreams and visions and words given to my friend and me, as we fasted and prayed for a failing marriage, like they did for me, I suspect all those words will come to pass for her, but with the man the Father has created to be her husband.
You guys are hurting units full of bitterness and immaturity. It is mind boggling to me how you can spend hours criticizing and judging leaders in the church aside from the fact that yes, Ted Haggard did fall and is now facing consequences for his actions and the enemy got the best of him… as do all sinners face trials and temptations. Look at yourself aside from others and quit judging everybody. Your motive is to offend and throw stones at people who are created by God (in his image).
You guys sure have time to throw stones. Instead of throwing stones why don’t you go spend time with your wife and children. What Godly heritage do you have? Your missing the calling of God to make a difference through humility and creativity in the house of God.
Hmmm…jjs, how do you know that we dont spend time with our family, friends, and doing ministry and other things?
And yes I am following my calling of God. I’m a college senior & I help out at an “inner city” public school tutoring & mentoring teens. I got a chance to share and talk faith with kids. I am also involved with an arts ministry group and used art for a purpose. I spend a lot of time with my friends, roomates and family. And yes, I had people push me into “full time” ministry or fit the mold of an MFI wife while I was in Bible college. That wasnt my calling.
In fact, for my calling, I get no recognition and dont right away see the fruits of my labor. Since I’m human it can get very discouraging and there are times of frustration. I’m still very satisfied. When it comes to the true purpose, praises of men are empty and meaningless.
I think u are taking it out of context. To me, I dont want megachurches to fall or pastors to have another public scandal. What does that tell non-believers? But just the fact it happens should be a serious signal. A lack of accountability and certain aspects of megachurch culture is actually harming the gospel.
Do you know that more than half of those who are saved at altar calls today walk away from Christ in 10 years or less? Only 10-20% of people who are saved at altar calls during the revivals of today are Christians 10 years later. Compare this to the revivals of Wesley and those that occurred about 50 or more years ago. Among those new converts, about 70-80% of them were still Christians 10 years later.
As for Ted Haggard, I want him to be fully healed. I see a hurting person that needs support. I’ll be happy if he is restored. The reason why I gave my thoughts is not because of throwing stones. Throwing stones is total condemnation, and there is a difference between openly discussing real things that happen in a church & total condemnation. If I didnt care about the church or pastors, I wouldnt waste time but rather walk away quietly.
But apparently its okay for you to throw stones?
Hey Nina,
Didja ever notice the similarities between the ‘conditioned’ responses of 1-time posters like “jjs”, et al, and Pavlov‘s Dog?
Pavlov received a Nobel prize for conditioning dogs. What’s interesting is, Ivan Pavolov’s first career, was as a priest!
Apparently, conditioning believers to ‘drool on command’ (or otherwise ‘vent’ on blogs) is no different than training dogs.
Not till you pointed it out. Interesting thought there.
I have no issues with those who disagree with me respectfully & can articulate their thoughts, opinions and views intelligently, respectfully & IN THEIR OWN WORDS, rather than repeating the same cliches, name-calling and standard responses.
welcome to him
He is really an interesting character.
Thanks for sharing.