Anna asked me why I brought up the Newsweek article posted below and said:
I’m done with this thread unless RP says something about why he brought it up.
Anna,
I brought it up because I thought it would make for good discussion (which it has). I , personally, enjoy digging into controversial subjects…and…just because something may seem black and white to you or I doesn't mean that there aren't other opinions out there OR that our opinion is correct. May I never be so proud as to think I have all the right answers.
Now, this particular subject is rather difficult. I think so because in reading through many of the comments it seems people are arguing different things. Such as:
a) Is Homosexuality a sin?
b) If homosexuality is a sin should those practicing it be allowed to marry?
c) What role should the church play in legislating their morality on the world?
d) What role should individual christians play in legislation?
e) How do you feel about the "church's" current repsonse to homosexuals?
Here are my basic thoughts:
The first question is an easy one for me.
a) Homosexuality IS a sin. Based on what the Bible says or even if you look at it from an evolutionary stand point it just doesn't seem right.
It starts to get a lot more complicated from that point on.
b) Personally, at this time, I don't care if gays get married or not. I do not see how it effects me one way or the other. I don't see marraige as something so special that I must fight to protect it to stay "traditional". I don't see Biblical examples of Jesus or other Christians fighting to push their agenda through the political field. That being said, because of I believe homosexuality is a sin, should the issue come to a vote I would likely vote against gay marraige.,,if I voted at all (I did not vote on Measure 36 years back).
c) It is my rather strong opinion that the church needs to back the EFF up. Until they can show the world the LOVE of CHRIST they need to quit worring about showing the world the LAWS of CHRIST. The church should take a page out of the Bible (a novel idea i know) and treat the world the way that Jesus treated them. Try sacrificing their lives for homosexuals…and allow GOD to convict them if He so desires. The WORLD will never listen to Christians when they are treated so poorly by the church.
d) We should feel free to vote our morals and feel free to legislate our agendas…but we should do so as Americans and not as Prophets for God. I'm tired of hearing Churches preach on "whatever ballet measure they think is important" and act as though they know what God wants. For instance, how many Churches were convinced that God wanted John McCain to be President? Vote. Legislate. But understand that God will always be in control and you will always be able to serve/worship Him no matter what laws are created.
e) The church has failed. If God treated us like we treat Homosexuals we would all be burning for eternity. If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit told us "Conform to our standards and we will love and accept you…otherwise we will have nothing to do with you because you disgust us" how would that work? Our message to the world should be that of Love…this is not to say that sin will go unpunished but people please…lets try the Golden Rule for awhile. And if you must tell someone about God's justice over sin…tell it to the church. Our churches are just as sinful as the world…and we should know better.
For the record, this is just how I feel right now. I haven't done an in depth Bible study to come up with my beliefs so there is a strong chance that you all could change my mind through your comments. For those of you in the Portland area it looks like we could get snowed/iced in for quite awhile…plenty of time for us to unpack this a little more.
WOW, RP you sound so educated here. Great points. I agree with them all. I personally have no problem with gay unions because, well I don’t see where the harm is. Is what they do wrong? Of course. But so is the straight Christian who cheats, lies, steals, robs, etc. SIN IS SIN! It don’t matter if its sex between two men or sex between two unmarried people, or sex with animals. It’s all wrong and sinful. Yet where’s the outrage about other sexual sins? I mean, how many Christians have sex outside of marriage? I don’t see any protests, petitions or political bills by James Dobson to stop that. Gays are people living in sin, just like everyone else. Unless someone can show me how what they do harms our society any worse then unwed mothers, cheating spouses, or sex with dogs, then I say leave ‘em alone and pray for God’s divine intervention into there’s sinful lives as you would the others who stuggle with sexual problems. The argument that all the sudden gays will “take over America” is fear-mongering. I just wish Christians would care more about serving Jesus and less about not eating at McDonalds because they support gay marriage. Of course SOME gay people have an agenda, just like SOME Christians do. But because we agree with the Christian people we say it’s OK for them to push their agenda on society, but because we disagree with the gay people we get up in arms about them doing it. I say Jesus is bigger then them all, and His agenda will go forth no matter what anyone else tries to do. So who cares what they teach my child about gays in school, because well it’s not the schools responsibility to raise my child. It’s mine. A good parent will explain their belief system to their children and let their children decide if they want to follow that belief system or not. I don’t believe enough people remember how they grew up. Two of my moms best friends were gay men, one of which I called uncle and saw on a regular basis. I was taught all about the gay lifestyle from 8 years old on. It didn’t make me want girls any less when I turned 11. Why? Because God had a call on my life that no amount of worldly influence could disrupt. I had the most liberal, hippy mom ever, yet I turned out a Christian republican. If I raise my daughter right and work my ass off to ensure that she has a positive view of men, marriage, and relationships and she still chooses a gay lifestyle then there’s really nothing I can do about it, except pray that God will grab her heart like He did mine. As we both know, it really don’t matter your family, where you come from, or what you’re taught in school…Jesus is more powerful then ALL.
Exactly, one of the comments from Basic Rights Oregon accused those opponents for being hypocritical for even having an opinion on this matter. Why? Christian marriages also end in divorce. Christians also cheat on their spouses. Seriously, if all Christians lived up to the Bible, we would make a difference. As Christians we need to first take care of ourselves before trying to change the world.
Exactly, one of the comments from Basic Rights Oregon accused those opponents for being hypocritical for even having an opinion on this matter. Why? Christian marriages also end in divorce. Christians also cheat on their spouses. Seriously, if all Christians lived up to the Bible, we would make a difference. As Christians we need to first take care of ourselves before trying to change the world.
I don’t disagree with gay marriage from a legal standpoint. I think that being able to obtain a legal document and perform a legal ceremony is everyone’s basic civil right, and I can’t quite see how two women being able to legally get married threatens the very sanctity of marriage. I don’t agree with homosexuality and I do believe the Bible speaks very clearly about that, as it does a million other things that I fail at on a daily basis. It’s funny, because marriage is supposed to be about love and people uniting together, and yet so many Christians could not be less reflective of God’s character when it comes to this issue.
I thought the Newsweek article came across as surprisingly spiteful and pointed, although everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It was also very good insight as to what people who don’t believe in God think when they read the Bible.
I guess I’m trying to say I agree with you.
Thanks, RP. I wasn’t sure I was allowed to say anything anymore because women must be silent and all that… But then I read the passage in context and looked up the words to see what Paul was talking about and so now I feel a freedom to blog away! But that’s a whole nuther discussion.
It IS good to discuss these things as Christians as long as we keep a view understanding them in the light of what God has to say, not just on one narrow topic, but how that topic interrelates to all the others. Thanks for making us think!
Well, mustn’t they?
Yes, as with all things:
-joe