The Bible says WHAT?
Posted on December 19th, 2008 by Reformed Pope into the Comments From Others categoryI hope you find joy in bashing other churches and other men and women of God all in the name of Jesus. Show me where in the Bible that it says it's okay to do such a thing.
Well Josh, let me try to list a couple scriptures that may help you understand where we are coming from.
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
"Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which he have learned…" That's what this blog has done…we have "MARKED THEM…". Now, I'm no fool, so I realize that you think that we are the ones that have "caused division" and so you should "mark us". Feel free to do so…but before you do, lets look at what the Bible says about False Prophets/Teachers/CBC
My personal favorite is:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Timothy 4:3-4
And what does it say to do to people who "will not endure sound doctrine"? Lets step back to 2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction.
This blog has endured many years of "great patience and careful instruction"…ok maybe we failed at that one at times. It's a work in progress for us.
Now we should step to 1 Timothy 4:1-2
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
Josh, the Spirit clearly says that some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons…I believe an example of this is the prosperity gospel.
And when we unpack 2 Peter 2:1-3 we find:
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
You see Josh, there are a lot of warnings against false teachers / doctrines in the Bible. These warnings are to people IN the church. Just because someone talks about Loving Jesus and Loving the Bible doesn't mean that they truly do. You must always hold EVERYONE accountable to teachings set forth in the Bible and by Christ.
My church is susceptible to "false teachings" and I must always be on guard against them…just as I am with my former church.
I hope this helps you out, and I am glad that you are searching out the truth. Thanks for your comments.
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December 19th, 2008 at 8:07 am
“These warnings are to people IN the church”.
Schooled, you were.
I say! Schooled
December 19th, 2008 at 8:17 am
Josh is very young and naive. But we should love him anyway. OPB has been running the biographical film on Martin Luther. Josh, if you live in Oregon, and I’m only guessing you do. I would recommend watching it. It will show you that one man’s bashing of the “holy church” is the reason you’re not Roman Catholic right now. It can also be rented. There are also many written biographies on Martin Luther. Most are excellent. I just want you to understand that men like Martin, perhaps men and women like us, are what makes the Church as strong as it is today.
December 19th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Hey Pope,
That was an excellent, biblical post.
Good job.
-joe
December 19th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Thanks Joe,
I’m secretly hoping DOC disagrees and rips me a new one…but don’t tell anyone.
December 19th, 2008 at 11:08 am
blockquote>Josh said: No wonder the world sees us as divided, because those that say they are in the church are backbiting and gossipping about one another and probably saying, “Bless you brother” to each others faces.
These days I have more non-Christian friends then Christian ones…and trust me, “the world” does not see the church as divided, but rather sees the church as a bunch of judgmental hypocrites who only care about money, gay bashing, and converting people. And I am pretty sure that stereotype does not come from this type of blog.
December 19th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Oops, last post was suppose to look like this:
These days I have more non-Christian friends then Christian ones…and trust me, “the world” does not see the church as divided, but rather sees the church as a bunch of judgmental hypocrites who only care about money, gay bashing, and converting people. And I am pretty sure that stereotype does not come from this type of blog.
In addition, I’ve often found that it is the one’s who don’t speak out publically against places like CBC who will backbit and gossip about people behind their backs then say “bless you brother” to their face. I’m pretty sure the people on this blog would speak out against someone to their face as much as they do on this blog…I know I would. It’s just that these people usually don’t give a person the chance to speak with them face to face, cause they know what’s coming.
December 19th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
It’s funny how my name is Josh and you all of a sudden think that I am the first Josh on the list that goes to CBC. I do not go to that church, but would like to say that I fully agree that we should hold one another accountable to the teachings of scripture. However, are you sitting down with these people and calling them on the carpet with their so called out of line doctrine? Because the scriputes you used above don’t descibe the church that you have continually bashed in your blog. Agian, I say, “Bash” because that is all you really are doing. Yes, you can say, “Well, I’m not supposed to associate with them” but I would have to say there seems to be a deeper issue of hurt and resentment then actual holding someone to the bible.
The scriptures you used above are really weak at best, because I could say the same thing about you. Every person’s response has been cynical and has an in your face attitude behind it.
The apostle Paul could have confronted many on false teachings, which he did, but not all the time. He once said that some preach out of envy and selfishness but as long as Christ is being preached. Now, by all means I am not saying to take this to the extreme. My point is they are preaching Christ, so what if you don’t agree with everything. I really find it hard to grasp that you think one of the false teachings is the prosperity doctrine, which they do not support. And if you really knew your Bible you would maybe understand a little more about the teaching on money.
However, this will be my last time I reply and honestly don’t really care what you say. I just think it’s pretty mean spirited and very directive towards some people that you have unresolved issues with.
And in case you think I came across harsh or mean spirited myself, I apologize ahead of time. Who knows maybe our paths will cross one day and we’ll be able to discuss things face to face.
Josh
December 19th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Josh…
As my good friends Ben Folds and Regina Spektor once sang:
“You don’t know me…you don’t know me at all”.
I would, however, love to sit down and introduce myself one day.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
If you don’t go to “that” church, then how do you know what they are preaching? I spent many, many, many hours listening to them preach and you are right, the basics are surely there…like Christ was the Son of God and died on the cross for our sins, but beyond that I’m really not sure what else they “preach” that is Gospel based. I know that was your last post, but I would sure love it if you could tell me what it is that they preach that’s so profound? Please enlighten me. Cause all I remember is a bunch of needless points that were incorrectly applied so as to make everyone spin a bunch of plates to feel more worthy and accepted by God. Now that’s not Biblical at all.
As far as prosperity goes (again, not sure how you would no that they don’t support the prosperity doctrine when you don’t go there but I’ll figure you get your information from someone) CBC is all about money. Listen to any message given by any person on any given Sunday and money is always in the thread. And since you are such a Bible expert maybe you can show me where
Jesusspecifically spoke about tithing, prosperity, and being rich for God.December 19th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Oops, Jesus was suppose to be in bold
December 19th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Oooh. I think Josh does go to CBC. What about you guys?
December 20th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Josh wrote:
The sermons I’ve listened to from CBC / City Church, et al, have focused a LOT more on money and how to increase your personal wealth by using the power and promises of Jesus. That’s not preaching Christ as Lord and Messiah, that’s teaching people to cash-in on select words of Christ as a means to worldly wealth - using Christ like an ATM.
Josh, you might find the following article, sent by a friend, an sobering picture of the church in America. Found at Artistic Theologue - Inside the Mind of Christian Fahey. Excerpted in part below - the remainder of the article can be found at the link.
December 20th, 2008 at 9:10 am
Great story Scrupe.
If the church is a business then the church is a whore.
I think Catalyst once tried to make that connection here.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:49 am
you’ve got to be kidding me. Are you seriously questioning whether tithing and offerings is biblically based? Read your entire bible and you will find it (many times). Now the question of truth - do you tithe? If the answer is no, then you have no right to be bashing any church that preaches on this.
December 20th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
You are really late to the party here on this one Yomama. Do a search on tithing and you will see that we have discussed the biblical aspects of tithing many, many, many, many times. But let me just re-iterate what major point we have mentioned before…since you are representing yourself as the Bible scholar. Tell me exactly where, in the Bible, Jesus told his followers they must tithe? I’m curious if you can find that one??
December 20th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Here are a few links to get you started in your research:
http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blog/2008/08/01/is-tithing-biblical/
http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blog/2008/09/28/tithing-in-the-face-of-foreclosure/
December 21st, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Faith like a child kind of question. I am blessed to have read that.
December 22nd, 2008 at 1:22 am
First of all, I didn’t say I was “the Bible scholar”. You don’t have to be a scholar to find tithe, giving, offering in the bible…just have to read it.
Secondly, I’ve seen many arguments on not giving/tithing before…most of them are from folks who don’t want to tithe so they justify it by whatever means they need to.
Third, I read your links and didn’t learn anything significant (that I haven’t heard before). Before you jump on me for a CBC lover…I am not. My home chuch back in PA was better (IMHO) and I have been to many churches in my lifetime. But just because CBC preaches from the Bible and preaches about giving (which is also in the Bible) doesn’t give you the right to bash them. There is no constant prosperity message (i.e. if you give lots of $$$, God will give you lots of $$$ back). Perhaps you haven’t actually been going for a while…gasp.
Here are some verses and info in regard to giving/tithing/etc.
Malachi 3:10
2 Corinthians 9:13-14
2 Corinthians 12:14
Hebrews 7:8,22
Matthew 23:23
Plus many, many verses on giving…do a little reading/research and you can find them.
There is a passage in Hebrews, which deals with this issue directly. It is Hebrews 7:8:
In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.
Melchizedek received Abraham’s tithe. The Hebrew writer shows that Melchizedek is a prefigure of Christ. We can conclude that just as Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek we give a tithe to Christ who is declared to be living.
Tithe is only a minimum…should really be giving way more than that (if our hearts are truly in the right place
But I’m likely wasting my time since I’m sure you’ve heard plenty of messages on giving from far better speakers than me. I can personally attest to many folks being blessed as they have faithfully given (and I’m not talking about ‘give to get’). If you choose not to give that’s b/w you and God.
Most folks who think they can’t live on 90%, can’t live on 100% either. And a few final words…Old testament was 10%, New testament God demands all of us. So that 10% sure seems pretty small now doesn’t it.
Some interesting discussion
http://www.soundanalarm.net/NewTestamentTithing.html
http://www.tbm.org/is_tithing_new_testament.htm
(another quote)
III. TITHING IS ETERNAL PRINCIPLE
Giving is the principle in the Bible and the tithe was a standard. Saying I will love my wife is a principle, but saying I will love my wife until the day I die is a standard. We are to abide to the principles of giving, but the Holy Spirit gives us his standard, and may I add, that the standard from the Holy Spirit is beyond ten percent. In the end we will be judged accordingly if the Holy Spirit should prompt us to give more, voiding a tithe mandate
To everyone else…whether you believe in tithing/giving or not…no need to bash those who do.
Merry Christmas…snow is great…reminds me of home
December 22nd, 2008 at 2:37 am
For me I have no issues with tithing or giving money. I would love to and believe I should be generous. But, I personally feel that CBC mismanages & misuses money for frivilous things. I’ve been there for 10 years, in PBC, internship and very involved. I saw a lot of ugly things. No, I’m not expecting churches to be perfect. I understand they are also flawed like me. I saw other things.
When I was in CBC, I decided for sometime to stop giving to CBC. Instead I gave to a Christian ministry that helps ex-prostitutes, drug addicts and people in poor countries get a basic education so that they could get a job and be off the streets. While downtown, I took a homeless girl to Mcdonalds and bought her a meal and chatted with her. I was told that even though I had good intentions, I shouldnt be focusing on those ministries first. My first priority should be giving to my local church, which is my 10%. After that I am free to give wherever I want. I was told that it is biblical principle to first give to a local church. That person could not tell me where the Bible specifically mentions that and got agitated with me for simply asking.
I dont know how long you’ve been in CBC but at one time they decided to get new equipment for the auditorium. I thought that the auditorium was fine as it is. The funds could have been used much more wisely in order to spread the gospel. Why not a women’s shelter, homeless shelter, or something to take care of the needs of the city? Or why not church planting? or missions? Forget that but millions on an auditorium is more important. I perceive that CBC is more interested in promoting itself and its own kingdom rather than spreading the gospel in the Portland metro area.
I now attend another church, where they connect/network with other churches including those outside their denomination. They also get actively involved with the needs of Portland and use it as a chance to glorify Christ and reach out to people.
Sometime back CBC had a “Forward together” campaign. During a super sunday, they awarded a few people plaques for being involved in church or some other reason that wasnt clear. I dont know what the plaques were for but those plaques looked very expensive. Also, I saw it as unnecessary. I can understand public recognition, praise or encouraging words but why should lay pastors or godly people receive expensive plaques for their work or whatever it was for? Personally, if I was doing God’s work I would not be comfortable with receiving something like that.
Not everyone here is not wanting to give. I will agree with you that sometimes there tends to be basing and nitpickiness. I don’t always agree with everything here. We need to disagree and discuss the topics rather than name-call or judge other people. We should have better and fruitful discussions.
To all - Maybe many of us have also been hurt, judged and treated like dirt by other Christians, but should we stoop down to their level?
December 22nd, 2008 at 2:51 am
Wow, finally someone that can get their point across without bashing, namecalling, or attacking. One of the best posts I’ve seen on here in a while. Nina - I would love to get together sometime to better understand your situation and where you are coming from. I’m not going to say what I like and dislike about CBC on a public forum for the world to see but if there is a church I might like better around here, I would be willing to give it a try.
Well, time to go to bed tomorrow…gotta get up and go to work tomorrow. I sure wish they knew how to take care of the roads around here though (amazing what a few inches of snow can do).
December 22nd, 2008 at 7:08 am
Yomama - when it comes to the tithe, I’m afraid you’ve swallowed the proverbial camel, my friend.
And you are wrong on the motivation of people who have written articles to dispute the tithe. My motivation commenced with a Q&A session between the Father and me after I had witnessed several very sad situations where the church refused to help the poor. That Q&A session opened my eyes to the lie of the tithe and started me on the road to freedom from institutionalized mammon-loving churchianity. The rest of the article is at Exposing the Tithe Lie if you’re interested.
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:25 am
I find it interesting how people who support “tithe” will say things like this. If the OT law of “tithing” is still applicable today then it is only 10% of your money. If (as we here at City Business Church believe) the new testiment principle of Giving is applicable than it is 100% of your income that belongs to God. You can’t have it both ways. Either we are still bound by the “law” of tithing (10%, right off the top to your church) or we are not and we should understand that all 100% belongs to God and we should give it as directed (thank you Nina).
I was taught to give 10% of my income as a little boy. I had a 25 cent per week allowance and i gave 5 cents each week to the church (my dad thought it was better to round up in this situation). I believed in the importance of tithing and never had a problem with it…unitl I got to CBC. With all the constant teaching on giving I found it harder and harder to give with a pure heart. Suddenly, I felt as though I was giving just to get even though for years i had freely given 10% without a single thought about it.
That is when I started doing some Bible research and found that tithing is at best an OT law that is no longer neccessary and at worst just a custom by which one must give kings their spoils from war. The church today takes far to many liberties in trying to apply this system to themselves.
For the record, i am not anti-giving. In fact here is a link to an article stating how pro-giving i am.
By the way, did you make it into work today? Cause i thought i was still going in, but we must have 2 feet of snow on the ground today. It’s beautiful.
December 22nd, 2008 at 11:54 am
Hi Jomama;
Couldn’t resist……no offense, bro.
I know exactly where you are coming from. I, too used to believe in the “N.T. tithe,” for years in fact, and also saw that many who wouldn’t believe in it did so out of coveteousness.
But once I had the courage to take a hard look at what the Word actually said about it — that “Sola Scriptura” thing (and its 4 corrolaries, “Sola fide, gratia, solus Christus, and soli Deo gloria”) — I had to jettison it. Which I can tell you wasn’t easy to do, having to admit that what I had stood up and taught to others was not only erroneous, but also false doctrine.
If you will take the time to follow some of the links posted here, or even go back through this blog’s archives, you will find enough biblical discussion on O.T. (mandatory) Tithing vs. N.T. (voluntary) Giving to allow you to come to an informed conclusion. And, this fellow Unscrupulous Man has some good stuff on it, too.
But Pope makes a good point. We, being creatures of this mortal flesh, sometimes react against a thing for no other reason than merely because it rubs us the wrong way. Specifically, like he mentioned, hearing it harped on constantly. Or, just like you mentioned being irked at some of the negativity here, which is a valid point.
But don’t allow that perceived negativity, or the imperfect way a teaching is presented — a teaching which may turn out in the end to be biblical — to keep you from coming to that truth.
And which principle Paul, though concerning a different subject, also recognized:
Blessings
-joe
December 22nd, 2008 at 12:11 pm
I’m new to Portland, and there seems to be conflicting messages in regard to properity at this church where many of my friends attend. If some of you could listen to these sermons from the pastor and let me know what you think.
scarcity or sufficiency
Tomorrow
Podcast
December 22nd, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Yomama
I disagree with half the stuff said on this page. About another 10% of the posts make me want to leave the webpage all together. However, there are enough positive things that make me think to keep me around. I am here to have my thoughts and positions challenged.
As far as the tithe, giving and the tithe are two different things. The challenge for most of us to understand the differences is that pastors/teachers have combined offerings, tithes, feasts and sacrifices into one big lump of giving. However, the Bible provides different reasons and methods for all of the different types of giving. After seeing the perspectives of this website, I did my own independent research. One of the things that I found is that the tithe was not regularly used as a reason for giving until the 1700’s as churches looked for a way to find a consistent way to fund/support the work of the church. So, the beginning of the tithe being the impetus for giving gained momentum out of pragmatism more than Biblical mandate.
All of that to say that it is worth your time to do some real research on the tithe. Actually read all of the scriptures about the tithe. Focus on the scriptures that established the tithe in the law. With the the tithe, it seems that so many connections are made through tangential connections more than through actual Biblical mandate. For example, Abraham tithed to Melchizedek therefore we all must tithe for the reasons that were mentioned in an above post. Yet, Abraham was giving from the spoils of war, not his own work. Melchizedek was a foreshadow of Christ, but not Christ. When the tithe was given to M… there was no sense that this was to be regular behavior. This was a special gift on a special occasion. The mandate for the tithe is in the law, not in other instances.
December 23rd, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Wow 25 posts so far!
I feel my original comment may be to blame as I may have commented in a childish fashion.
Look.
I give nearly 10% or more of my income to soup kitchens and street people. I feel much better helping “the least of these” than padding some “leader’s” pockets. In fact, I feel the more a pastor makes the less they are in touch with the REAL needs of the Church. This leads to institutional thought which tends to exclude Christ’s true message.
This has been an interesting ride and I’m glad I got off when I did.
December 25th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
All,
Sorry, it’s been a while. I’m glad to see that at least most of the posts are coming with some more substance rather than blatant attacks on other believers. That’s been one of my main points all along.
To Scrupe - I haven’t swallowed any ‘camel’. I think it’s actually the other way around (in regard to ‘twisting’ the verses around). Also, I think it’s kind of ridiculous to NOT see that obviously in that time they tithe on what they had (flocks, etc.) and now we tithe on what we have ($$$). Back then your net ‘worth’ would have based on my many goats, etc. you had. Now, we use hard cash (or credit
. Oh, and btw - I didn’t learn about tithing/giving from CBC. I grew up in PA and have been to many good churches (including my home church in PA). They taught us to refer to the Bible and that’s where I get most of my info.
To Pope - I find it interesting that people that don’t support tithing often don’t realize that really all of it is God’s and we are just his facilators. Whether we give 10%, 100%, or somewhere inbetween is b/w each individual and God but I think we can agree that the more the better. (May just disagree that a portion should be going to your home church). btw - I made it to work everyday until I flew home (yesterday) to PA for Christmas. It’s funny…PDX has PA weather and PA has PDX weather.
Waddup Joe - I have examined this, gone to some of the links, and seen previous posts. I’ve actually known about this site for a while but just recently felt compelled to add my 2c
Like your post though. Same goes to your FF.
Micheal - it’s definitely been an interesting ride.
over and out
December 25th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Also, back to the original poster, define “men and women of God”
I hate it when this term is used to imply a spiritual hierarchy. Do some people reach a level where they “make it” in faith that they are not to be questioned and maybe infallible? There should be no such thing as a protestant pope. Even if they are, I refuse to view them like that.
Why do some believers put too much trust in people and even fear men/women and not God?
I think some of the false prophets, pastors and others wouldn’t make their living if people were smarter and not (ahem) gullible enough to trust everything that comes from a man on a pulpit. There are believers that blindly follow any teaching. Faith is not being naive, gullible and docile. I think some believers (not all) are the most gullible ones on the planet. No wonder scammers target the Christian community.
So, what’s a man/woman of God? Anyone that confesses his/her faith in Christ and salvation through him —– which is you, me and everyone here. spiritual maturity, age, gender, position, wealth, prestige and other things are IRRELEVANT.
I’m not saying that I don’t respect spiritual authority. I am fortunate to know some genuine pastors/leaders who truly care, down-to-earth and don’t think they are above others. Those people are rare these days.
It seems the more high-profile a celebrity pastor is the more he is like a protestant pope.
Personally, I have an issue with that in churches today. I also have issues with Pharisical religion and misuse of money.
December 28th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Can’t help you out with that, Yomama … seems to me IF you’d read the article and the few hundred scripture references therein, you’d have seen the Bible is precisely where I got my information. From the school of “God said it, I believe it, that settles it for me” - when Leviticus 27:30-33 says that the tithe is flocks, herds, fruits and grains, it would be a twist to make that scripture out to be about money. To that end, Paul was of the “God said it, I believe it” school of thought, as he wrote in 1 Corinthians 4:6 that we should NOT go beyond what is written in the scriptures …
About PA, I don’t think the churches there are any different than the rest of the country in their preaching / teaching about money - though I have visited a few around Pittsburgh when playing at some outdoor festivals in New Kensington a few summers ago. There was only one church I’d have frequented there - in a beat up old building on the Allegheny - Pastor Carmen - never took an offering - never mentioned money during the service - he didn’t take a salary - if a person wanted to give, there was a box in the hall outside the sanctuary … in fact, of all the churches I’ve visited through concert ministry in the last 35 years, that church in NK is the *only* church that treated lucre with the respect it deserves … it wasn’t even mentioned in the presence of God or his people …
December 29th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Sorry, Pope. I’m gonna have to agree with you as well.
December 30th, 2008 at 5:13 am
Hi nina;
I think the answer lies in their walk with God.
New believers are identified as babes in Christ (1 Cor. 3:1) and can only ingest milk, while others are more well-established in the Lord and thus can digest meat (Heb. 5:14).
This is readily seen in the N.T. Epistles, each of which were written to local churches at differing stages in their progress in the Lord. Thus what was written to them varies by design and content.
For example, to the Corinthians, a church Paul fathered but which was nevertheless beset with many problems of the flesh, his Epistles were written to address these issues. 1 Cor. 7:1. And so, in dealing with them as “children” (1 Cor. 3:1) Paul instructs them to be followers of — that is — to “imitate” him, as he imitated Christ (1 Cor. 11:1).
Which human/tangible example children need, but as you pointed out is often taken too far, to where believers follow their leaders into heresy. Paul recognized this, which is why he said he was to be imitated only as he himself followed God.
And yet to the Ephesians who were a strong church, having flourished under the ministry of the mighty Apollos (Acts 18:24), Paul didn’t need to focus on such stuff as he did to the Corinthians, and so wrote a quite deep Epistle focusing on the Mysteries of God, and who thus could “imitate” God Himself (Eph. 5:1).
-joe
December 30th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
I wasn’t addressing new believers but you have a point. When I was a new believer, I need to know the basics and new believers need a person to look at as an example.
That is different from viewing a person as infallible. Some people take it too far and blindly follow heresy. According to these people it is wrong to ask a question or touch God’s anointed. A good Christian blindly follows in faith. (NOT). That is not faith because what about the bible constantly warning us to use wisdom, and not listening to false doctrines, false prophets. The bible tells us to test every spirit, which no other religious text tells its followers to do.
January 1st, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Did you know Martin Luther was Anti-Semitic. From what I have read it’s where Hitler got some of his theology and reason for killing the Jews in WWII. You might want to read, Martin Luther - 1543 titled “On the Jew and Their Lies”, Luther’s Works, Volume 47 it is too long to quote here. Here is a short quote by John Calvin “Their (the Jews) rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone”. Excerpt from “Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio”.
Some of the church fathers were not the best examples in my mind.
You might want to obtain “Reformers and Their Step Children”. Many “Christians” had other “Christians” killed because of their beliefs and doctrines.
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:46 am
hi annaLit;
Long time no hear from.
Why not?
Is it because they, like Hitler, didn’t like Jews? If so, would you mind explaining why you think that was wrong — for either of them?
-joe
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:00 pm
First Question -I think it has been some of the reading I have done concerning some of their beliefs and doctrines. I think we are still working this all out in our churches today.
I have a sister who crossed over into the reformed doctrines and we have had much debate. She highly upholds a doctrine of election in which I believe John Calvin espoused. I disagree on their doctrine of election, in my words, some are chosen and some are not. They do not believe that Jesus died for “all of man kind” and we get to partake in the covenant made between him and the Father of our own free will.
Constantine believed that the Church and State were a single entity, a religious and political unit. In my understanding you were a christian because you resided in particular local not because you were one inwardly. You were born christian.
I believe some of the reformed doctrines believe in infant baptism which the Catholics practice and some presbyterian churches practice. From my understanding the reformers did not totally break away from all Catholic traditions and doctrine as I believe is conveyed.
An older gentlemen I met at a “home church” gathering introduced me to the book “Reformers and Their Step Children”. It was a real eye opener to me on a secular church state.
And then just lately my son was doing some studies on yashanet and told me how anti-semitic some of the church fathers were. I don’t know that Luther was always anti -semitic but I sure question where he was coming from when he wrote “on the Jews and their lies.” My son also told me one of the reasons why we have only the NT bibles is because of anti-semitism. I never thought of that aspect before, in fact I never even questioned it. My grandfather who was in WWI had a NT bible only.
Second Question - I think it’s more like hating Jews not just disliking them. It was demonic in nature. I just watched a documentary on the cell group that were involved in the 911 attack. They truly believed in what they were doing was of God. They had actual footage of them and you could see how militant they became over time. As they were watching this one Jihad tape you could see the militancy in their eyes, in their countenance and in their chants. It was a spirit and an evil one that over came them. But with there whole heart they embraced this hatred of American ideologies and see us as being evil ones.
We are frail as people and the devil does over take us, as it did Hitler and the German people, as it can us if we do not act out of Christ’s love for all who are in bondage and deception. We so desperately need the truth of God in our lives. The bible teaches us that we war not against flesh and blood but against powers against principalities in high places.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:51 pm
I don’t think they are talking about tithing - There is a thought conveyed that if you have money then you are doing something right, tithing, and if you don’t you must be doing something wrong, not tithing. There is something similar in thought I have picked up on and that of someone being sick is in sin, ie Jobs friends. There is most likely more to it. Having a conversation with one person who is involved in the MFI leadership, there was a comment made that, God had really blessed someone they knew because they had money.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:10 pm
What the heck is spiritual authority? I know I have a knee jerk reaction to this phrase, but will someone please define. Are you a spiritual authority just because you are in “leadership”, a “pastor”? I dislike the term.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:48 pm
In what context did you hear it used?
In spiritual warfare conversation, ’spiritual authority’ usually means power over the demonic to effect a spontaneous demonic ejection from a demoniac (read: exorcism) … in church circles, I suspect it is a reference to the ‘God’s set man’ principle - in other words, the person who is alleged to be appointed / anointed by God to be ‘over’ a congregation.
The language bugs me too, because it emphasizes top-down rulership rather than humble servanthood …
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Nina said on 12/25/08
Also, back to the original poster, define “men and women of God”
I hate it when this term is used to imply a spiritual hierarchy.
And then later states - I’m not saying that I don’t respect spiritual authority. I am fortunate to know some genuine pastors/leaders who truly care, down-to-earth and don’t think they are above others. Those people are rare these days.
I have not heard the term “men and women of God” used to imply spiritual hierarchy however I have heard it used as she states above. In some of the circles I was around it was a term used to get others to follow what they said or thought you should do in areas of your life, and if you didn’t… usually it was used to scorn or belittle you.
I think it should be stricken from our christian vocabulary for misuse and manipulation.
January 3rd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
http://www.dtl.org/cults/review/authority.htm
If you read the part on Spiritual Authority - this is how it was used. Strike the term I say, strike it!
January 3rd, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Insidious what this doctrine would do and does to a christian with a tender conscious towards the Lord.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:02 am
annaLyt:
I’m not trying to single you out unnecessarily here, but since you mentioned all that, I would like you to answer 4 questions for me if you wouldn’t mind:
1) If you had been living in Nazi Germany in the 1930s-1940s — and before it happened — if all that stuff proposed against the Jews was put on a ballot for public vote, would you vote on it?
2) And assuming it passed and thus became law, and the Jews were now open game — with citizens robbing the Jew’s businesses, beating them in the streets and even killing them — would you get involved and try to help them?
3) Next, would you go so far as to break the law, and hide Jews in your home if necessary?
4) And lastly, if the Gestapo came to your door asking if you were hiding Jews in your home, would you lie to them to keep these Jews from being murdered?
(BTW, anyone can feel free to jump in here)
-joe
January 6th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Before I can answer the first question I need to know what “it” is and what stuff “is”. The last three I would hope would be all yes.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:08 am
IF before the ballot was passed, you were given the opportunity to vote on it.
-joe
January 6th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Who would even put forth such a measure. I believe the civil governments duty is to protect the lawful aganist the lawless. That would be lawlessness in my mind, ie. to put forth a measure and bring forth a law that would allow others to kill, steal and destroy others persons and property because they are a certain race, religion or nationality.