Here, with the help of a few friends (thank you Anna, Cat, Scrupe) is City Business Church's version of Twas The Night Before Christmas
TWAS THE SUNDAY BEFORE GUILTMAS Twas the Sunday before guiltmas, and all through the domes And tithers were nestled; all smug in their pride, When out on the butte there arose such a clatter, The moon on the boob and the new-fallen snow A little check-writer, so wealthy & wise, “Now Frankie! Now Dougi! But not to the homeless, the poor, those in need, And then, in a twinkling, Frank heard on the roof He was dressed all in rags, from his head to his foot, How dare Jesus come and interrupt all this giving When Frank is the one with a Simulcast Service How can St. Malachi’s Curse be all over, He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old Savior, He took the ole’ Law and all Ten Percent, Then He sprang to the heavens, to His angels gave a whistle, "Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"
Not an intern was stirring, nor people calling the phones…
The tithe envelopes were hung in the pews with great care,
In hopes that St. Malachi soon would be there;
While visions of Beemers danced in their minds;
And Doug in her ‘kerchief, and Frank in his cap,
Had just put together a faith harvest trap,
Frank sprang from the desk to see what was the matter
Away to the coffers Frank flew in a flash
Tore open the vault and counted his cash
gave fear of no tithers for Pastor Damazio
when, what to his wandering eyes should appear,
with a passion that rivaled his hatred for queers
He knew in a moment it must be Malachi.
More rapid than eagles, his curses they came,
and he whistled and shouted and called them by name:
Now, Marcie and Tim!
On, Wendall! On, Judah!
On, Donna and Asim!
To the top of the dome!
To the top of the butte wall!
Give cash away! Cash away!
Give cash away all!”
instead to the pastors all caught up in greed
so up to the butte-top the curses they flew,
with a dome full of guilt trips, and St. Malachi too.
the sound of St. Jesus with a tiny young Poof.
As Christ, full off love, drew the boy to His side,
he hugged the young Gay ,made the poor child cry
and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot.
Jesus said to the boy “I love you like a father”
which angered ole Frankie, he became very bothered
The snow He has sent has ruined Frank's living.
And how can he love this young sinner boy,
And treat him as equal and bring him such joy
Christ’s example of Grace is making him nervous
Frank needs to have Starbucks, he needs a quick fix
he's afraid next he’ll hear Jesus loves Dixie Chicks.
When Frank needs the Tithe to pay for a Land Rover
Young boys and young girls there’s truth in this story
Poor Frank was a mess when faced with Christ’s Glory
and I laughed when I saw him, in spite of my behavior.
A wink of his eye and a twist of his head
soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread.
and covered them with Grace, so magnificent.
And laying His life on the side of the cross,
he freed us from curses and took all our loss
And away they all flew like the down of a thistle.
But I heard him exclaim, 'ere he rose out of sight,
This will not be received well by the Eldership.
It’s always good to be reminded of grace so magnificent.
Thank you!
This really filled me with the jolly spirit of Christmas. I’m truly blessed to have read that. God bless us all — everyone!
(very creative and I’m impressed with the length of the creativeness, too. Not an easy accomplishment).
I didn’t think they read the blog.
Should any of them wish to get together to discuss this they are more than welcome to email me @ mortonjp14(at)hotmail.com.
I feel very sorry for you. How hurt you must be. Can’t you get beyond the crushing of the past and put your obvious talents to work for the Kingdom of God. Frank did not die for you, so why do you worship him so?
Thank you. Thank you very much.
My friend told me about this website and I thought he was lieing but after spending some time reading all of this from the web page title to the dimazio 3 16. You say you aren’t bitter that you are laughing the whole time. This website is not constructive in the slightest. I am sure that you have had “haters” of all sorts post here and you gleefully brush it aside.
Just to help with some perspective I went to PBC for 2 years, I was fresh convert up from california and I did not even remotely fit into the CBC or at the time bible temple. I asked for help to understand what was going on and at the end of my 2 years my “mentor” told me I was not fit for ministry because my peers did not like me. I have never been entirely clear how ministry is a popularity contest. I left and back slid for some time it was my Job experience. I was extremly bitter and refused to go to any church.
With the world the way it is and the fact that Christians in general lack any sort of validity because we do not practice what we preach, the world looks at the bride and wonders why the hell they should change there wicked ways and join us when we do the same things they do.
Instead of wasting time on something like this why don’t you start a real online ministry that touches the broken and hopeless instead of mocking a church that does more good than most. Yes it has its faults and I do not agree with some of the things that they do but recently as in the last few months CBC has grown and they have begun to structure the things that are important. Ever heard of the “ministry” called Christian Research Institute. I liken this to that. You do nothing to encourage believers and be a witness to the unsaved.
Peccavi, thank you for telling your story. Many people on this website have stories just as appalling. But I see the point of this blog as providing some camaraderie — a place to laugh about a very real spiritual imbalance we’ve all endured, whether at CBC or elsewhere.
This is not a counseling site, which is best done by the Counselor Himself anyway. If there is healing to be found here, it comes from simply knowing that others have overcome with faith intact.
There is encouragement to believers to be found here. As for how we appear to the unsaved, that’s for another discussion…
Why laugh about it at all? We serve a God of forgiveness and acceptance no matter what. All I see here is dwelling on things that don’t make a difference. When was the last time anyone here laid hands on the sick for them to recover or helped the homeless lead someone to the Lord or gave up something in your life in Order Gods agenda to be furthered. Like I said I do not agree with some of the ways that CBC and PBC do things I can tell you some really horrible stories that happened to close friends of mine while at PBC. But it doesn’t matter for eternity. I go to CBC now and I enjoy it.
Congrats. you support a church that uses the Message of Christ to manipulate people out of their money. well done, buddy. well done. This makes you a far superior Christian than the rest of us.
if thats how you see it, I can not change that. It is always easier to take offense than it is to give one. Your snide comments are no better. You can always tell something or someone by the fruit. If it is such a horrible place then I am sure by now the Lord could have ended City Bible Church. I find it rather amusing that out of the 2 paragraphs I wrote you take one small sentence and take it out of context to prove your point… you never see that happen.
to add I know reformed popes sister pretty well ask her about Notcho nachos on the way to the sacremento river. I was at pbc with her as well.
As someone who graduated from Temple Christian High School and attended Bible Temple/City Bible, allow me to quote one of our first and best readers, Jimney Cricket:
“I am City Bible’s Fruit”.
I should ad that I just read JP’s post “Twas the Sunday Before Guiltmas” in full, and all I can say is “Brilliant. Brilliant!” I think it might even be better than “Dougie the Brown-nosed Pastor”.
The same way He ended persecution, phariseeism and the anti-Christ? (Spock says: “illogical”)
Peccavi, Since you prefer it this way, I will respond to your whole post:
Because being zealous all the time just causes high blood pressure. Laughing is another way to process serious matters in the soul.
You’ll have to clarify that a bit. Biblically, He only forgives if asked. He only accepts on His terms.
How can you possibly decide what things make a difference to people? It obviously doesn’t make a difference to you, since you returned. But I, for one, will not go back unless God tells me to, or unless the leadership repents. Because Paul said, “from such turn away.”
Are you seriously asking us to justify our lives to you? Do you really think that because we disagree with CBC that we have lost the ability to be Christians? Wow.
How do you know it doesn’t matter for eternity?
In what way?
Christ forgave us all when he Died on the cross it was is and will be done forever. Theres nothing to ask for. He already had it planned either way.
No, I am not saying you are not Christians because you dwell on things that ultimately do not matter. What I meant by that is what have you done lately to further Gods agenda and not your personal agenda to slander and belittle things that CBC does. All Churches ask for money in one way or another. The operating cost of a church the size of CBC is enormous. THe amount of ministries that they fund and partially fund add even more to that. Being a personal Friend of the Goodwins and Coles who both recently where just sent out with blessing and the finicial backing of CBC I know first hand how they impact lives. Yes years ago they negatively impacted mine and I made a choice to forgive them and move on. I enjoy going to City Bible Church because I am spiritualy fed. The preaching is meeting me where I am in my life currently.
If you want to put a spin on my words and take what I have to say out of context to justify your slandering a work of God then how are you any better than the israelites that wandered in the wilderness?
I am not going to agree with you or say pretty words to lessen the blow a website like this is not just an attack on CBC but its a weak link in the chain of Christianty. The bible says that Christ will come back for a bride without spot or blemish and this sort of blantant slander is just such a thing. I am sorry that you don’t like it that they ask for money. How else will they get it? Pastor Frank makes plenty of cash from investments and book deals and royalties. Trading war stories on how you got your feelings hurt in order to justify such a website and call it a ministry, is delusional.
Let me tell you another story, Like I said before I am from california and 2 of the pastors fell from Imorality and my youth pastor died from AIDS, You know who was there for all of that to help pick up the pieces and shepard the church MFI. When the church started to get large they joined MFI and then where told they should get health insurance and from the medical examination a lie was exposed and on his death bed the youth pastor repented. As have both the pastors and they have moved on with there lives, so if you want to cry that one of the larger churches in the NW, with one of the largest Apostolic out reaches asks for some dough once in awhile, well I am sorry.
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what are you talking about? Here in lies another issue, your world and spiritual view is non exsistant. What I see just in this statement is, “what about me and my feelings?” and that is a dangerous attitude.
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As long as we’re having an encounter session here, let me tell you what I see in your statements:
1) Failure to detect sarcasm.
2) Failure to apply logic.
3) You admit that you don’t know what I’m talking about, but you’re willing to render judgment anyway.
4) Difficulty with punctuation, capitalization, spelling, use of singular and plural word forms and beginning a sentence with conjunction.
5) Immaturity, of the youthful and spiritual sort.
Specifically, you advanced the notion that God puts an end to horrible (evil) things. In response to that absurd notion, I cited 3 examples of horrible (evil) things God has not brought to an end: persecution, phariseeism and the anti-Christ, thereby showing your statement to be “illogical”, or if lessens the blow, simply “wrong.”
As for “what about me and my feelings”, isn’t that the motive behind your posts? This blog is built upon the comments of people who read the articles posted here, who reacted to what they read and posted their feelings and opinions in response. Are you suggesting Christians should ignore what they feel or simply not discuss their feelings?
it has nothing to do with me and my feelings.
It has something to do with the heart behind the sort of things posted here.
And if you compare the anti Christ with CBC then I truly feel sorry for you.
I asked a Non Christian friend of mine to read this website, she already has a tough time with Church and Christians I asked her what she thought,
one word, Petty.
Peccavi, In my last post, I responded point by point, but it did not matter. You are believing things about this website and its posters that are simply not true, and any attempt to correct your assumptions are met with the same words. This is obviously not a conversation.
City Bible Church is adept at convincing their sheep that they are being fed. They are skilled at telling people what their needs are, and making sure that those same people see how the needs are being met through what CBC offers.
That’s nice that you agree with them. I do not.
Does too.
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I am anything but a sheep I am not a CBC clone, I am exactly the opposite. I am not brain washed, but I am working out my salvation, and I am going through a tough spot and the word that Pastor Frank is delivering is right on target for the season in my life. Another friend of mine was telling me that a prophet from Africa gave a word to CBC basically telling them that they where not doing all that they could do and that they needed to step up there game (paraphrased). Since then they have. This is a conversation I just do not agree with anything here. Since we are comparing CBC to the Anti Christ you all think what you are doing here is a good thing, well Hitler thought what he was doing was a good thing. You show me in scripture where we are allowed to mock a work of God to make ourselves feel better because someone hurt my feelings and I will recant.
I’m sorry, Peccavi. Your writings are full of assumptions. You state the assumptions as fact, and then condemn them. This is straw man logic.
And then in condemning us for comparing CBC to the antiChrist (which I do not), you compare us to Hitler. The pot calls the kettle black.
No, this really isn’t a conversation. It’s your rant. I’m done.
Now I know your kidding. If there’s one word to discribe this site it’s: HILARIOUS.
Thank you. I just moved it into our Favorites Category based on your reccomendation.
Okay, I’ll chime in. Peccavi, I dont always agree with everything that is said here. Once in a while there has been intellectual discussions and sometimes it helps me think about what I believe and learn how to discuss faith with all types of people. I wish this site would not nit-pick as much.
Ranting is silly. Zeal without knowledge is empty (that goes both ways). And extreme comparisons and emotionalism makes it harder for me to take anyone seriously. Now for my thoughts…
How about NOT tossing casual remarks & comparisons to Hitler. It would be considered offensive in places like Germany and to Jewish communities. It is also very illogical. Lets be careful about who we compare to anti Christ because wasn’t it Oprah or Obama or any Democrat president?
Then again, I guess you guys are even, if Peccavi can compare anyone with an opinion to Hitler, I’m sure it makes it okay to compare anti Christ to CBC. Well, there we go, you’re even now.
On the more serious side, Peccavi, I understand where you are coming from. I attended PBC and it was the shock of my life.
As for whether CBC feeds the sheep or not, how about we all agree to disagree? If one person feels that they are being fed and able to give out to the Body of christ, let’s just be happy for them and wish them all the best.
As for me, I don’t feel that way at all about CBC. I feel that I’m being fed church trends, hype and spiritual junk food . Sometimes, I feel that extra-biblical and cultural ideas are preached as though equivalent to the truth. I left CBC and have never been happier or more peaceful.
I know that you may not like what I just said but that is what I honestly feel. Just like I cant change your mind, neither can you change mine.
I attend another church and I feel the teaching is challenging my faith & helping me grow. In my new church’s small group and bible studies, they are open to people asking questions and discussing the difficult topics. I feel that I can approach my pastor and ask any question and not receive judgment but they are interested in helping me grow as a Christian. This never happened while I attended PBC/CBC.
No, I did not compare CBC to the Antichrist. You obviously have difficulty with reading comprehension and logically testing an idea … once again, more slowly this time, you advanced the idea that God ends things that are horrible (evil).
Specifically, you said:
If as you suggest, God ends things that are horrible (evil), then by your logic, that which is MOST HORRIBLE (evil) should have already been ended by God – such as the Anti-Christ, Persecution, Phariseeism …
All I did, was test your (idiotic) idea by applying different conditions, to see if your idea holds up. It does not.
I did not compare CBC to the Anti-Christ, though I’m sure he’s on the board of directors.
paint it how ever you want to paint it but underneath this is not a godly ministry. CBC may do some stupid things, but this doesn’t help anything but satans agenda to disqualify the body of Christ.
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Amazing that you claim you are better than people that go to CBC yet all you do is throw insults and pretend to be smart. As far as I can tell you can’t hear tones over text on the internet. You can be a mouthy tough guy all you want here so that way you feel in control.
How many men of God have we seen fall who where against homosexuality or porn or anything of that nature to only been secretly fighting that sin themselves. If you are any of you are better than Pastor Frank or any leader at CBC then walk down town and give all your money to the first person you see. You won’t do that of course. Because all you want to do is complain and cry that humans aren’t perfect. When was the last time you walked on water or was risen from the dead.
Peccavi, your last comment is just ranting and no I don’t get your point at all. I have a hard time taking people seriously if it’s full of emotionalism.
Nobody claimed to be better than CBC people. I didnt see it in the last posts. I certainly did’t.
What does godly men struggling with porn, homosexuality have to do with anything being discussed?
So apparently, you walked on water and rose from the dead? Good for you
And did you give all your money to the first person you meet? Well how do you know? And I think you wouldnt do it either, so why the double standard?
If not for conjecture and inference, you’d have nothing to say, Peccavi. Here it is, only the 3rd day of the new year and already you have given Cat and Pope a contender for ‘straw man’ post of the year. Well done, dude, well done.
Its not about what I have or havent done what I should do or anything Like that. I am not the one with delusions of my perfection. I never claimed to walk on water. What I am saying is that, all I have been saying is that you slander and claim that CBC is not doing the work of God, you all have gone so far as to make a mock website of the church. You can put fancy words to how I talk, but this is not emotionalism it is how I talk. If you feel like I have wronged you or some level of guild or condemnation has risen up, thats not my fault. What I mean about the great men who have fallen, was they have all been the biggest crusaders against porn or homosexuality yet they where stuck in the same bondage. You seem to value this world to much.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Peccavi: some advice here: you are wasting your time. I was reading in proverbs about not talking to fools and angry men. How true.
these guys will string you up, have their fun with you and mock you. They are not interested in hearing what you have to say.
I happen to agree with you (no I do not go to CBC, I don’t even live in PDX) but I have seen the folly of trying to discuss anything with people like this unless you are agreeing with them. The possibility that they could be handling this all wrong is not up for discussion. I have been a lot less stressed since I decided to stop trying to “talk sense” into idiots online. Anything these people might have to say is, in my mind, completely negated by their recent post on sexual abuse being “a requirement” to be in the ministry. Anyone who could publicly state what they did about that obviously at least sometimes is shutting out the voice of God to do something that is totally aimed at their own flesh.
I do not want or expect a reply from these morons, but I thought maybe you could use a shot in the arm.
I appreciate that. I just like to argue, even though I know on the internet is like winning the special olympics. Just boggles my mind.
You think you won?
no, means everyone is still retarded. But like moth to a flame I can not help myself but to point out the complete lack of any thing remotely based in bible on this site. None of this makes you any better than the people whom you evidently despise you use the bible to validate your point with pulling scripture out of context, I asked when I first started posting if you can find scripture that backs this “ministry” up. I challenge you to it. The only one that comes to mind is when Christ said he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Yes I included myself.
About “based in bible” – have you considered the story of the man who was beaten and robbed while traveling the road to Jerico – left to die in a ditch by the religious of his day, his cries went without assistance until a despised and ‘unclean’ samaritan stopped to pull him out of the muck, clean him up, bandage his wounds and transport him to a place where he could be nursed back to health … the process is dirty, painful, heart-rending … do you think the man who was beaten and robbed was singing “Jesus Loves Me” or do you think he was crying while telling the Samaritan what had happened to him?
If you wonder what it is that sustains this site, this is a place where people who have been victim of spiritual abuse (specifically, beaten and robbed by hirelings – see John 10) meet others of the same fate and through sharing their experiences, begin to heal … if you know anything of healing from systematic abuse, then you know part of the healing process is confronting their abuser(s) …
All too often, people who have no compassion or understanding for those who have been victimized, drop in and post a barrage of religious condemnation with all the subtlety of a drive by shooting, thereby just heaping more religious cruelty on those who have already been victimized by religious overlords … and for no more than the walking wounded trying to find a measure of healing and affirmation from others …
So it should come as no surprise that your accusations, condemnation and judgmentalism is met with anger in response … you wouldn’t walk into a burn unit and yell “fire” – so why do you come in here and heap more religious abuse on people who are trying to escape it and heal from it?
this is no more a place for healing as is Todai is a place for a fatman to go on a diet. This is a place to say poor pitiful me. Waaaaambulance.
Let me tell you the “injustices” that have been done to me from churches.
1. Church ran foster home the dad was abusive and the mom an achololic. and there son was a gay model in L.A.
2. my youth pastor grabbed my friends ass who later we found out was gay and died of aids.
3. While I was in bible college the pastor that recognized me as a prophet in front of my home church was the whole time in a adultrous affair.
4. My mother was raped by a man in the church in california and it was swept under the rug.
5. When people where drugging fellow female students and girls they met while at Portland Bible College and had there way with them, and when I told the school about it nothing was done and I was mocked.
6. People went behind my back and told the staff that i was screwing my girlfriend at the time in bible college when they where the ones having all the sex.
7.Called a heretic in class because I do not agree with everything that PBC does.
8. Kicked out of PBC because my peers didn’t like me and I didn’t conform to there mold.
9. Called into the Pastor Wagers office when I was starting a ministry to laos and told to “cease and desist”
10. had someone who I thought was my best friend from bible college steal 500k$ from me.
So do not tell me about being hurt and cry that someone asked you to tithe the bible is very very clear on that matter and the spirit behind the things posted here are not biblical, if you want healing then ask for Christ to heal you, trading war stories in this manner only do you harm, they do not allow growth or healing or the road to move they only allow bitterness to set in and unforgiveness. If thats what you want in your life, to forsake the teachings of Christ then so be it. I am not at City Bible because I think Pastor Frank is awesome or because I have been brain washed or because I think they are the heavenly authority on all things. I am there because God told me to be there because he has something for me to do. You are not the samaritan if you where you would send people to God not to your blog this is for your glory not the glory of Christ so spin it how ever you want to spin.
God knows your heart, and why you slander a work of God. But when you stand before Christ at the end of all things and He asks you what you have done for his Kingdom are you ready to tell him that the fruit of your labor was a website that belittles and slanders His Bride?
You do not bring hope but allow the poison of unforgiveness to fester and poison even more people.
Did God tell you to be here?
About the bride of Christ, why does the apostolic-prophetic crowd make out churches on earth to be the ‘bride of Christ’, when Revelation plainly says that the Bride of Christ is made by God in heaven, and descends to earth? The description of the bride is found in Revelation 21 and Revelation 22 – it does not come on the scene until the old heaven and earth passes away and is replaced by the new heaven and new earth – see Revelation 21:1-2 … then in Revelation 21:9-10 where John is taken away to see the Bride of Christ – the Lamb’s wife … he sees it and goes on to describe the New Jerusalem …
So howbeit, Mr. Prophet, that CBC is the Bride of Christ? Did CBC descend out of heaven from God?
You are proving to be a real bore, P-man …
yet again you twist my words. try reading ephesians. since you know it all.
Difficult to undertand how you can claim to be a christian when your words and attitude are so obvious and dont tell me this is all in fun for you.
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Another person could say the exact same thing about you too. So, I’d be careful about judging another person’s Christianity. Only God knows the heart right.
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I dont have or promote a website to bring down a church. read matthew chapter 7.
Your fruit is bitter and unhealthy and sooner or later God will come to chop it down.
This is all I have to say I will not be coming back to read a reply. you are welcome to send me a regular email peccavi6@gmail.com.
FYI — I DID NOT CREATE THIS SITE.
Just like you I come here to discuss and I dont agree with everything,
Obviously, you have either not read my posts or didnt understand them because u are only interested in winning arguments and asserting your sense of spiritual superiority.
In that case, I’m not interested and forget your email because I’m only interested in people who can discuss their points logically without resorting to name-calling, irrational emotionalism.
Bye!
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Nope, no twisting, Mr. Prophet. I simply compared what you were saying about CBC being “the Bride of Christ” to scripture and proved you wrong. Deal with it.
As for Ephesians 5, I know it well – well enough to know that Ephesians 5 says the Church is Christ’s BODY, not the Bride. While around Ephesians 5:22-30 or so, it does use some ‘bride’ language, NO WHERE does that passage of scripture say “the Church is the Bride” …
Consider this, Mr. Prophet, where the language of ‘marriage’ is concerned, a woman is called by several names throughout the process of becoming married, she goes from being single and unattached, to courting then engagement, or as in arranged marriages betrothed, to having and being a ‘fiance’, until finally comes the day she is to be married where she is called the “bride”. After the wedding, she is married and referred to as a wife.
Even scripture – Revelation – uses the words “the bride has made herself ready” – and so referring to a woman as “the bride” before she is ready or before her wedding day, is premature.
No doubt you’ve also read the scripture about the wedding banquet – the virgins with lamps waiting for the bridegroom to come and take them into the wedding banquet – some have enough oil, some run out – so not all who are waiting for the bridegroom to come make it into the banquet – likewise, it is clear the virgins waiting for the bridegroom are not the bride …
So Mr. Prophet, I’d simply like to suggest you spend some time reading and meditating on the scriptures yourself, instead of letting hirelings with programs to sell tell you what they mean – for there is a veritable smorgasbord of false doctrines offered up by the merchants of religion and it appears you’ve dined at their table regularly …
You would do better to follow the Spirit into the wilderness for some deprogramming and healing time, and leave CBC altogether. God has nothing for you to do there, but to break you of religious self-righteousness.
It takes just one person to make a difference in some ones life. Some chose to make good difference and some chose the negative. Only one person on this planet was ever perfect and that was Jesus Christ. All the rest fall short they know and God knows. The life experiences we gain are the refining fire that shape us into the gem God needs us to be. He has a plan for you. Put your focus on GOD and do not let the fire consume you.
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Thank you for all your comments. My children are Generation Interns at the City Church in San Diego. My husband and I do not attend the City Church because we do not support their vision and are quite offended at their view on money. I have struggled immensely with bitterness because my children eat, breathe and sleep the City Church. I had to get to the point where I accepted the good the church was doing–strong fellowship for my children, vibrant worship, strong focus on purity. I see my children reading their bibles quite frequently. God is bigger than the City Church, MFI, etc. You are living proof of that because of your posts. You have chosen to forgive and go on with your life. I certainly am not where you are but I am getting better every day!! What I do see are countless charismatics hurt and offended by church dealings and they swing way over the other side. No longer do they believe that miracles are for today. They seem to go on an intellectual head trip of having to always defend their faith with reason and logic and not have anything to do with their emotions. They seem to rip and tear at anything that is Word of Faith based. People are very bitter on this blog. I used to visit regularly but it started to poison my waters.
Now that’s ridiculous. Reason and Logic? You mean to tell me that there are people out there actually reading and studying the Bible and then applying the knowledge they receive to their lives using Reason and Logic? Why would they do that when instead they could just run around and let their emotions lead the way. After all…who cares if what they are being taught at church is truth or not…so long as it FEELS right.
Give me a break.
Reason & Logic does is NOT carnal or unspiritual. And whoever said that non-charismatics or ex-charismatics dont read their Bibles or believe in miracles or power of God. Both can exist together. I am not a charismatic but I’m spirit-filled & believe in miracles. I’ve seen spiritual gifts operate through Baptists, Lutherans and Catholics.
Maybe those ex-charismatics are tired of emotionalism and want something more balanced. Some are worn out rather than bitter. I used to be a church intern and I was full of zeal but if the zeal isnt based on anything substantial other than hype or charisma, I will eventually wear out. I’m not fully against charismaticism.
Reason & logic is one way to worship and get closer to God. Yes, there is a way to worship our God with our mind. God created brains for a purpose. Reason & logic can be reflective and an expression of God. Thinking can be like like listening to a hillsong CD to some people.
A good fruitful discussion and thinking about a topic (with good intentions and right motives) can be just as fulfilling and as powerful as hearing a prophetic word or being slain in the spirit because you experienced God’s presence. I have had intellectual discussions with other believers, where we all experienced the presence of God while we discussed faith openly & I really mean openly.
Generally speaking I don’t understand why Christians today think reason/logic is less spiritual or undesirable. The Bible doesnt forbid reason from what I’ve read.
If logic/reason is used as a measure of lack of faith then apostle Paul would be disqualified as a man of faith. He seemed knowledgeble, well educated and well read and used reason/logic when discussing spiritual topics.
About ‘reason’, doesn’t scripture say – even the Lord say “Come! Let us reason together” …
I remember when the Lord first baptised me with the Holy Spirit … after 20 some years of praying for it … I couldn’t WAIT to pray in the spirit – how it carried me away … I had hoped that season would last forever – it was so fresh – a time of intense cleansing, healing and renewal – alas it lasted just a year or 2 … then I came to really appreciate the deep ache Keith Green’s song ‘Grace by which I stand’ …
…
About logic, Jesus used that approach frequently – when confronted by Pharisee types – they’d ask him some question designed to trap him and he’d point out their hypocrisy with a logical comparison …. for example, when he asked them about the way in which they swore oaths … seems like if they swore by the altar, it wasn’t binding, but if they swore by the gold in the altar, it was binding … (Joe will correct me if I didn’t get the quite right
) … he asked them a question of logic to illustrate that it was the altar that made the gold more sacred / holy …
Along those lines, I was also thinking about Jesus words to the pharisees “you give a 10th of your mint, dill and cummin, yet neglect the more important matters of the law – justice mercy and faithfulness” … and I found myself wondering what it looked like for a pharisee to tithe the herbs from his window-box herb garden … I mean, did they sit there and count out seeds of dill? Seed 1 goes to God and seeds 2-10 are keepers? So while they were focusing on minutia they missed the big picture …
I think we can get too close to single scriptures, forgetting that it all scripture works together and is meant to be understood as a big picture – as in a building of line upon line precept upon precept … for example, how could Jesus advocate healing a man on the sabbath or rescuing an animal from peril – such as a sheep that falls in a pit … it’s the difference between whether sabbath was made for men or men made for the sabbath … it’s LOGIC that asks the pharisee ‘what do you have against me healing a man on the sabbath, when you will rescue your sheep from the pit on a sabbath – is not a man more important than a sheep?’ …
Praise God that He encourages us to reason together and that he gave us an example in Christ Jesus of applying logic to expose the religious falsehoods we cling to …
In one way, I appreciate Peccavi and Cecile’s plea for people to forgive. Of course, we should always do that.
But I don’t understand why those like Peccavi and Cecile assume that the reason some of us have left CBC/MFI is because we are offended or bitter or angry or lashing out or whatever.
Could it be that some of us have examined the doctrine and found it wanting? Or that we saw the fruit of the leader-worship and rejected it? Or that we wept with frustration when they turned a perfectly good worship time into a “God exists for my benefit” session? Or that we have watched friends with spiritual issues be turned away by elders (and PF himself) in counseling, never growing, never healed because they didn’t fit the CBC mold?
Yes, I have forgiven. Yes, I have moved on. That is not the point.
Yes, there are people there who love God deeply, and those people do wonderful things. That is not the point either.
It’s the teaching…it’s the teaching…it’s the teaching. You cannot forgive bad teaching! Love does not ignore faulty doctrine. Love rejoices in the truth!
‘K. I’m done.
Because we can’t be right. If we are right then there is no reason for anyone to stay at CBC…and leaving is simply not an option.
Thank you for that Anna…you are right on (if you could be).
Well put, anna, and an excellent point.
Don’t you remember when it seemed like all the songs sung during the worship at old Bible Temple, back in the day under Pastor Iverson, were direct quotes from Scripture, or at least contained the Word of God in the lyrics?
You really want to get depressed? Try going into your local Bible bookstore and take at look at what lines 90% of their shelves. Bunch of stuff on self-help, me, me, me.
Whatever happened to the focus of our lives being upon God and His work, when our worship and even prayer was biblically-based, like the Apostles did in Acts 4:24-30?
And in the next verse we see the Divine response to prayer/worship like that:
-joe
Don’t forget “Christian Guitar Hero” and Joyce Meyer greeting cards.
Wow…sorry I missed this one. Took a break over the holidays. I really don’t have a lot to say, except:
#1: RP your song is simply brilliant. You should copyright it and sell it. Seriously.
#2: I’ve noticed a common complaint among those who dislike City Business…we’re too critical, too bitter, and too judgmental. And every time I hear these complaints I cringe. Why? Because these people are missing the point. Getting so wrapped up in the emotionalism of the site often blinds people from the truth behind it. So to all the City Business haters please remember one thing: if the bitter sounding, judgmental things being said on this site were not packaged in truth, it would have failed a long time ago. You see a majority of the readers of this site never post a thing. They never share their stories of hate, greed, or hurt that happened to them from some place like CBC. Most just read and find solace in the fact that they are not alone. They are encouraged to know that church can be far better and people can be much greater then what they’ve experienced. This site has been successful for that reason. So every time one of you CBC faithful works up the courage to attack like a vicious pit bull with a “you all are just bitter a-holes” comment, remember that judgment comes from both sides. We hate CBC you hate us, either way it’s the same mindset. Judging the judger is still judgment.
Just a little food for thought.