Recently, the following questions were asked in another thread on this blog, and after changing the wording slightly, I would like to post them for discussion here:
1. If you had been living in Nazi Germany in the 1930s-1940s and a ballot measure was proposed which would allow the Government (and citizens) to rob Jewish businesses, beat Jews in the streets, and even kill Jews, would you vote on that measure?
2. And assuming the measure passed and thus became law – and the Jews were now open game – would you get involved and try to help them?
3. Next, would you go so far as to break the law, and hide Jews in your home if necessary?
4. And lastly, if the Gestapo came to your door asking if you were hiding Jews in your home, would you lie to them to keep these Jews from being murdered?
-joe
1) Hell no!
2) Yes, but probably not very publically unless I had some association with Jews who are being discriminated against.
3) Yes, but generally if it was someone I knew or it was someone who was running from imminate death.
4) Yes.
All that being said, these questions are so loaded no one is going to say they would allow Jewish people to be murdered. That’s kinda silly.
Hindsight beats foresight. The questions really cannot be accurately answered being that we know how history played out and what the motives and methods were.
Everyone gets that joe is trying to set up an argument for outlawing abortion, right?
Am I wrong joe, or is that that discussion/argument you are trying to facilitate?
I just couldn’t tell if anyone else was picking up on that…
I didn’t know what was going on…but seriously Joe…
WTF?
Let’s answer those questions based on the Majority. Since, as LL has mentioned, “hindsight beats foresight” and no one can answer those questions honestly:
1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No
Here are my responses.
1) The Nazis were much smarter than that, and would have phrased the bill differently. People forget that the Germans didn’t suddenly declare Jews to be inferior, it was done slowly over time. Not with just one sweeping decision.
2) I imagine I would help the Jews. But really, who knows. It’s easy to say you would help from the comfort of your own home. But who knows how you would really act in that situation.
3) This is really the same question as #2. Yes, I would hope so.
4) This question doesn’t make sense. Who is the moron who would break the law by hiding Jews in his home, but wouldn’t lie to the Gestapo? If you’re gonna hide Jews, then I’m betting you’re willing to lie about it as well.
These are kind of silly questions. I’m not sure the point.
And if the point is as, Just Thinkin says up top, to draw comparisons to abortion. I’m not persuaded.
Abortion has been legal in this country for over 20 years, and the Christian community has done very little to oppose it, other than vote Republican.
If Christians really believed Abortion is the same as the Holocaust, then they would be doing more. But they don’t.
At least the pro-choice community doesn’t believe a fetus is a human life. I think they are wrong. But at least their behavior makes sense.
Christians act like abortion is the worst crime in the world, and yet, do almost nothing to prevent it. I’m not impressed.
Of course, if the point of the post, was just to post something. Then I’m alright with that. Because if I haven’t blogged in a while.
Of course this is about abortion…no one missed that. It seems to me what Joe is really asking is:
1) Would you vote on a measure that made killing babies legal?
2) If the measure passed, would you get involved to help the babies?
3) Would you break the law to stop the killing of babies?
4) Would you lie to the government to keep babies from being killed?
The key to the whole argument is whether a person believes if a fetus is an actual human (which on a Christian based blog is almost always going to be yes). Problem is this line of questioning is comparing apples to oranges (as has already been pointed out).
But hey…I’ll play along with you Joe.
If I lived in Nazi Germany with my mother’s family, I might have been on the train to Auschwitz.
What you talkin’ ’bout, Joebob?
I couldn’t get past question 1 – when were the Nazi’s ever democratic? If memory serves, it was a dictatorship …
Now if you’d sais lawyers instead of Jews, I’d have answered:
Yes, No, No, No – the same as I’d have answered it if you had made it about middle-aged-bicycle-enthusiasts.
The brothers Morton opined:
The questions were asked to facilitate dialogue as to whether a Christian should progressively:
1. Vote – based upon morality/conscience.
2. Offer passive resistance to civil law — based upon morality/conscience.
3. Break civil law — based upon morality/conscience.
4. Break God’s Law — based upon morality/conscience.
Thus, I asked questions regarding a historical topic which AFAIK the overwhelming majority of persons in our day would agree upon as to its (im-) morality.
Cattle Ist said:
Cat, I must confess you’re absolutely right on all four points. Getting out of DC was definitely a good move.
Just Thinking said:
Yes, JT.
Leave it to a female to pick up on these matters first, inasmuch as most women I know are smarter than most of the men I’ve ever known, and which is conveniently illustrated by ‘Scrupe….
‘Scrupey, you’ll find that before Der Fuhrer led his people into blatant dictatorship, nearly all of what would in today’s society be deemed unthinkable/immoral and thus be rejected, was legally passed by popular vote in Germany, either through plebiscite or Parliamentary (Reichstag) Law, almost all of which passed by over a 90% majority.
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, (William L. Shirer, New York, Simon and Schuster, 1959) especially chapter 7, “The Nazification of Germany,” and chapter 8, “Life in the Third Reich,” is excellent on this, and I find the growing parallel to life in 21st century America fascinating.
He prefaces the book with a quote from the German writer, Johann von Goethe:
“I have often felt a bitter sorrow at the thought of the German people, which is so estimable in the individual and so wretched in the generality.”
I wonder if the same general characterization could be made if the word “Christianity” was substituted for “the German people.”
-joe
These are actually good questions, Joe.
I’m just not sure your questions were the best illustration.
There are stories in the Bible where God supported people who lied. e.g. when Rehab hid Joshua.
My favorite part of this blog is watching/reading joebib & Scrupe rib each other.
I see your point but tell me, who would actually say that they would vote on # 1? unless of course they are outspoken neo-nazis or part of a supremacist group.
Seriously echoing someone else – WTF?
You don’t get out much, do you?!?
Anyway – I won’t be on much for this next week – I’m in Sequim, WA visiting my dad – who jokes with me incessantly – so I should have some new material to brain Joebob with next week …
And I never thought I’d say this, but, it’s nice to be in Seattle to experience some winter before I head back to (comparatively) balmy Chicago …
Hi nina;
No need to be stumped. Just to let you know (besides what I said in the comment above as to the reason for my OP), the alternate reason I asked these questions was to show how inconsistent we as a society and as Christians have become.
Specifically, to illustrate that many Believers in Jesus would fairly fall over themselves in the rush to say that legalizing the persecution — and even killing — of Jews, would not only be unthinkable as well as immoral, but also patently unChristian.
And yet, many of these same people (after having decried what actually did happen to the Jews, et al, in Nazi-fortified Europe of the late 1930s to 1940s) have no problem accepting the concept of the legalized killing of babies in the womb.
Which IMO, smacks at best of apathy (not to mention naiveté) and at worst of hypocrisy, two commodities of which biblical Christianity as I understand it ought to be bereft of.
-joe
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So, the book must be written in Greek then, Joe?
Huh?
[Comment ID #36404 Will Be Quoted Here]
Didn’t you say you only read books in greek?
No I didn’t.
But yeah, I do know a little Greek. He runs a kosher delicatessen downtown.
-joe