A friend of mine (who knows I'm pretty anti-megachurch) sent this article to me today and I had to post it. Although I don't agree with all the points presented here I think there is a lot of validity to what this writer is staying. He believes that the evangelical church as we know it is headed for a major collapse that will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West, which will raise intolerance of Christianity to levels many people are not prepared for.
Here's his reasoning:
1. Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.
2. We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it. Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war, but do not know why they should obey scripture, the essentials of theology, or the experience of spiritual discipline and community.
3. There are three kinds of evangelical churches today: consumer-driven megachurches, dying churches, and new churches whose future is fragile. Denominations will shrink, even vanish, while fewer and fewer evangelical churches will survive and thrive.
4. Despite some very successful developments in the past 25 years, Christian education has not produced a product that can withstand the rising tide of secularism. Evangelicalism has used its educational system primarily to staff its own needs and talk to itself.
5. The confrontation between cultural secularism and the faith at the core of evangelical efforts to "do good" is rapidly approaching. We will soon see that the good Evangelicals want to do will be viewed as bad by so many, and much of that work will not be done.
6. Even in areas where Evangelicals imagine themselves strong (like the Bible Belt), we will find a great inability to pass on to our children a vital evangelical confidence in the Bible and the importance of the faith.
7. The money will dry up.
The author goes on to describe what will be left:
Expect evangelicalism to look more like the pragmatic, therapeutic, church-growth oriented megachurches that have defined success. The emerging church will largely vanish from the evangelical landscape, becoming part of the small segment of progressive mainline Protestants that remain true to the liberal vision. Aggressively evangelistic fundamentalist churches will begin to disappear.
Lastly he considers, if all of this is all really that bad and makes a very valid point in closing:
We can rejoice that in the ruins, new forms of Christian vitality and ministry will be born. I expect to see a vital and growing house church movement. This cannot help but be good for an evangelicalism that has made buildings, numbers, and paid staff its drugs for half a century. We need new evangelicalism that learns from the past and listens more carefully to what God says about being His people in the midst of a powerful, idolatrous culture.
I do agree that many evangelicals have dug a huge grave for themselves over the last few years. With so much focus on the "celebrity" Christian leader I wouldn't be shocked to see this collapse. I guess only time will tell if they will be buried in that grave.
First, there are a lot of evangelical churches doing the work of the gospel in obscurity. They are not dying. They are just quiet.
Second, many of the vocal evangelicals have bought into the 7-M Mandate described by Peter Wagner as:
When the church decides to dominate culture and control people, then it’s the Crusades all over again. Personally, I hope that fails.
Very interesting post. I pray that God would prune away whatever needs to be pruned, but that people that are literally praying that the local church fails would be sorely disappointed. I actually went to PBC and CBC for about a year. True that they talk about finances more than most, but they also talk about the importance of the local church more than most as well. I don’t see the local church as the central beef with the article, but I certainly see its ramifications spreading to that scope.
Also an interesting tie-in, Anna, to the 7-M theology. Not sure where your last statement exactly ties in to it, but my understanding is that the heart of the 7-mountains idea is not to form a new Crusade, but to get Christians thinking about the Kingdom, not just the four walls of their church.
Already seeing some of that here, in the rural midwest. It is not at all unusual for the membership (and income) of once thriving denomination churches here dwindle to the point that survival as a congregation means consolidation with former ‘competitive’ congregations / denominations. We’ve got ‘federated churches’, ‘yoked parishes’, etc., and believe it or not, the stubborn remnant won’t give up their buildings, rather, hire %n of a pastor with another congregation, who either conduct Sunday services at several churches, or, the congregations alternate between buildings.
Here in this town, there are a couple small churches that have shut down over the years and their buildings converted to single-family homes. Driving through the countryside, there’s several abandoned church buildings – some with an occupant in the parsonage still. A friend of mine even bought an old church building in a nearby town rather than see it torn down, with plans to fix it up and make it a meeting place again.
Hard to say what’s happening, but, I think it’s just that they failed to be relevant, or, depended on a family-farm type mentality where elderly members would be replaced by their children to maintain the membership / church. The kids don’t see the relevance and the church dies when the congregation ages. It’s just more obvious here in Cornville, I guess.
JustinS, I used to attend PBC and be an active member of CBC and was very involved. I left for many reasons. Leaving was the best thing to happen to my spiritual life. I feel I can give out to the Body, serve according to who God made me to be and grow outside this evangelical Christian culture.
Through the leading of the Holy Spirit, I’m now connected to another body of fellowship where Christ is preached and the sermons are beyond human paradigms, traditions and religion. They are eye-opening and function as a mirror to the soul and I’m seeing the bigger picture of the Kingdom. The true Kingdom of God is being preached, believers are encouraged to live in community and live out and serve according to their gifts. Grace is being preached instead of religion.
The obvious nepotism bugs me. I’ve seen many people being passed off and treated as though second-class citizens in the kingdom of God because they are not related to leaders or MFI elites, do not have a Christian background, or may be not as well dressed. I’ve seen leaders talk very rudely and in a condescending manner to a new believer who didnt dress well because um…she couldnt afford to shop at nordstrom.
For instance, I saw a new believer ask a question about the role of women after reading verses about Paul’s instruction on women. She was confused about that and calling of women. This was in a class or bible study. The leader suddenly became somber and in a very rude, harsh tone he started rebuking her lack of faith and respect for male authority. He said that women should respect male authority etc… This not only embarrased her but left her even more confused. And I thought this was just RUDE! and that he was being a self-righteous jerk. Is it not simple to just answer the simple question in a straightforward manner?
Only after many years I started noticing the self-centered mentality of these churches. Even with all the talk about changing the world, it seems that outside the sheltered church walls of CBC kingdom, there is really no influence. Many outsiders have no clue what goes on.
Take Genchurch at the Pearl for example. Originally the plan was to reach out and transform PSU campus. However, I visited a while back and there is absolutely NO presence of their ministry in PSU. They are not at all involved on campus events or willing to work with other ministries. When I visited the service several times between a year span, I saw practically no new comer other than CBC, new PBC freshman and their friends. Once when I brought an outsider, also a firm believer in Christ, I had to serve as a dictionary to explain all the CBC cliches. Only then she understood them. Ironically, GC downtown is still listed in PSU student groups but I can imagine looking at it and wondering— huh? whats GC Downtown?
Back to the topic, I think many churches as described in this post originally had good intentions but I believe they lost sight of their first love. Only after being in CBC for almost a decade, I started discovering a lack of accountability and that they have their own agenda.
Nina,
It sounds like you were far more involved in CBC than I ever was. I never got plugged in to home groups or districts or anything like that. All I knew was that I formed some great relationships at PBC with friends who are still there, have great respect for the people I did form relationships or communicate with (Koepke, Donna Lasit, Lanny and a few others)…
I recognize and validate the fact that many have left CBC hurt, disenfranchised, confused and minimized. That saddens me, but it also saddens me that bitterness in many takes root and the need is felt to stand in judgment against them as a whole, when there are many still there to whom much of this criticism should not apply, in my opinion.
That all being said, I too have found an incredible local church that preaches the Kingdom of God, that loves people unconditionally, preaches grace in diametric opposition to religion, and does in fact have a method for pastoral accountability and concerns of the people. We still believe in the government (Kingdom/church) that I believe God has set up, but it is my ardent desire and hope that we have not subjected ourselves to a system that God himself has not ordained, and will lead to many of the same issues we see manifested here today as a result.
Scrupe…sounds like points #2 and #4 in the article ring true in your hood.
Nina…that whole “lets reach PSU” thing is a crack up to me. I spent 5 years at PSU and not one person I knew had ever heard of or knew of CBC or anything affiliated with it. In fact I was strongly discouraged from going to any secular college by a number of pastors/leaders at CBC. They talk about wanting to reach the lost but are completely against associating with any of them. Deep down it’s all talk to stroke there own egos, but in the end nothing ever changes.
Justin…be glad you never plugged yourself into CBC. That’s why people have “bitterness” towards them. The more on the outside a person is the less bs they have to deal with.
TR – yeah, I guess I agree with those points – can’t assess the others – I’m just close to the kids through Karen who teaches and my own involvement at the school … you know, it’s funny TR – I’m playing guitar in the schools pit band for Grease which has it’s share of religious jokes … a boy eating a cheeseburger on Friday, when someone reminds him he’s Catholic and then he’s mad cause it means he’ll have to go to confession – and his Lutheran girlfriend says she can eat whatever she wants … it triggered a discussion at break with the kids, polling one another as to their “religion” (denomination) and some where eating fruit on a Friday because of Catholic food rules – and they were pissed about it …
I suppose that kind of encapsulates the irrelevancy of stupid religious rules … Karen comes home and tells me about some of the darndest religious ideas and discussions the kids have – that’s not forbidden here in the rural midwest – it’s often discussed in my wife’s adult living and relationships class, during such things as marriage projects and think it over babies – the ‘mock parents’ have to discuss their religious choices and how they’ll raise their kids … it’s obvious from some of the kids that they go to church only because their parents make them …
Years ago, I was asked to design a survey for the high-school youth and one of the questions I put in there was simply “are you born again” – of the 12+ kids in the high school SS class, 4 answered “no” – now these kids had been baptised, educated and confirmed in the church – that they admitted not being born again, sent their SS teachers into hyper drive for several Sundays – reciting the 4 spiritual laws, witnessing for Jesus, and leading them in the ‘sinners prayer’ as a group for several consecutive Sundays … one set of parents resigned the church over it – saying simply “my kid is a baptised and confirmed member – what’s this born again stuff all about?”
TR – all that seems like one of those goofy dreams after a night of pizza and beer …
I imagine that kind of thing is pretty foreign to someone brought up in a charismatic / pentecostal church – but for what Joebib calls the “high church” type denominations (mainline Pres/Meth/Luth), that’s pretty typical in the midwest …
Please define “bitterness” According to the popular definition of a bitterness – addressing something would categorize a person as a disgruntled, bitter church goer. Wouldn’t apostle Paul fall into the category by the defintion from modern day Christians? Notice Paul’s upfrontness. If he just said “Lets pray about it and trust God” – would it be the same?
I believe ALL sin should be confronted with the same boldness, honesty, openess and fervor without shame. Of course may evangelicals will agree about taking a stand against abortion and gay marriage.
What about the subtle sin inside our churches like idolatry, misuse of money, abuse of spiritual authority, prejudice and favoritism to the wealthy. It’s a minor plumbing issue if ignored will cause the entire house to flood. It’s hypocritical when churches fail to address them with the same fervor as they would to abortion, gay marriage, etc… Non-believers see this and it’s a big joke to them whenever they hear about “taking a stand…”
I’ve many close friends who still attend CBC. I visit like a out-of-town relative. This is my view & hopefully this will clarify where I’m coming from. Justin, 10 years ago, I would have said the EXACT same thing that you said. And after morelife experience, I see the bigger picture.
CBC has been around for a long time and even before most of us here were born. They are blessed with a lot of resources, opportunities & potential to change Portland.
Why arent they more influential? If the church of Acts were exactly like them, Christianity would not have spread much further and wouldnt have impacted the world as it had in those days. When I read & study early Christian history, I am amazed.
I would grieve if CBC fell apart, fell into a scandal or something happened. That is NOT bitterness. A bitter person would rejoice at someones failure.
I only realized this when I left PBC and starting going to a regular college and took a secular job. And like Reformer said – its true. Not even one person I’ve met in PSU has any idea about CBC ministries. The same thing rings true in the real world.
Oh reformer, tell me all about it. When I was leaving PBC and attending regular college, I got tired of hearing about cautioning myself against secular philosophies I’d be exposed to, ungodliness and all the drama. For one, college is an academic institution and I was taught how to do my job. Secular colleges are not as bad as people make it out to be.
It’s a good thing to be exposed to different ideas so that you can work with all types of people and be better at being “in the world and not of it”
I’m glad I got my degree and training, because it gives you a better perspective of life and faith and I can support myself better.
I would never send my own kids to a Christian school because I love them too much and want them to be stronger Christians.
Very good responses! I suppose I would define bitterness as it is defined commonly – resentment: a feeling of deep and bitter anger and ill-will.
I agree on most everything, but you make mention of the idea of a ‘secular’ career. Do you make distinction between secular and sacred?
There is a big difference between ill-will and expressing true experience and what needs to be brought to the table. And how can people make assumptions without even conversing with me or getting to know me?
Like I explained, I’m not ill-willed. I just dont agree with some things and methods that happen.
Some people appear bitter but in reality, they are very spiritually starved and malnourished. Giving them more spiritual junk food does the very opposite.
As for secular vs. sacred. Not at all. I used the word due to a lack of better definition. Lets not get too hung up or nit picky on terms.
There should be no artificial distinction between secular or sacred. At the same time, since I studied Eastern religions and been on mission trips – I didnt want to use the pantheistic – one is all and all on one type of defintion. Secular and sacred as we know today is not separate. The Bible doesnt make that distinction. That is a greek thought.
When I mentioned secular I was addressing the artificial distinction made by modern day believers between church and outside church (secular). Too many believers fear the secular over faith in God. See my other post.
God can be glorified through both secular and church jobs, which many megachurches and spiritual people distinguish. I’ve seen this happen over and over. My secular career is my ministry, calling and I’m using my God given gifts and abilities outside the 4 walls of church. In fact, a person who uses his gifts in the church is not more “gifted” as someone using the his gifts outside the church. Through the most practical things I see God.
I was constantly presurrized into giving up my career and joining church ministry. I was talked several times into starting a small group and being involved in CBC ministries in order to follow God’s calling. I was often questioned & rebuked for giving myself to my career. Some (even pastors) think that God only moves in their prestigious CBC. I find that kind of elitist mentality as snobbishness.
Now, it’s very refreshing to have pastors and other Christians who instead of pulling me inside the church, are encouraging me to go out and even asking how could their church help or support it.
The pastors & other believers teach me the valuable scriptures that I can use outside the church so that I can go out as a more mature believer, refreshed and better equipped. I always see the bigger picture beyond church culture -which is what people need.
And in my current home group, I am able to share my experiences to build others. Likewise, I always hear from other people in my group from all walks of life. Its truly like an iron sharpens iron.
Hopefully this makes sense.
Okay, I know this has nothing to do with the particular topic being discussed, but I wasn’t sure how to contact you with this information. You guys are the experts at this stuff, so I figure you could find out about a particular rumor I just heard. Here goes… I just heard that CBC is in the works of buying Mall 205 and the surrounding restaurants. Have you heard anything about this? The person who knew the information is a former CBC member but has relatives that are currently very involved. When they were asked to give more specifics they didn’t want to “gossip” and said to go and talk to the pastoral staff about it. What!? Whatever… Anyway, I thought this was interesting and figured that you guys could get to the bottom of this one.
I realize that we talk about CBC a lot…but lets be honest here. After 4+ years of us writing this blog people have stopped telling us anything. Quite honestly I am usually the last to know what is going on.
I suggest you contact your friends local district pastor to see if he has anything to say.
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I know this is the wrong spot to respond again, but I found out some information to pass on here. Apparently the rumor has been confirmed that CBC is in the works of buying Mall 205. They cannot purchase the Target or Home Depot locations though. They plan to sell the Rocky Butte campus because the buildings are getting too “old”. I am very disappointed in this. My family, as well, as many others helped build that place not more than 20 years ago. It’s got a lot of family history and memories and now Frank is just throwing it away for his own financial gains… I am sure a new investor will be very excited about the prospect of buying up that property, tearing down the domes, etc, and building nice homes up there.
If it IS true, it might not be such a bad decision. True, RB is a beautiful setting, but the buildings are quite old. Parking has always been a problem and a nuisance for the neighborhood. In fact, the parking is such a premium that they could actually charge extra for spaces at the conferences.
Is PBC moving, too? Dorms, classrooms and all? The only sad thing is that the Malmins will lose that million-dollar view.
Speaking of which, I’m not sure in this recession/depression that they will be able to get top dollar. Then they’ll have to demand a bail-out from their
taxtithe-payers.I did find out that CBC did in fact purchase Mall 205 already. They were not able to buy the Target and Home Depot spots, but the center portion. Also, they are planning on selling the Rocky Butte location. All of it. The domes are only 20 years old, at most, but the dorms and the rest of it are much older. I believe the dorms are about 100 years old. It was formerly a jail facility up there, which is kinda funny.
Jail facility? I thought it was a military school. The dorms really resemble military bunks. Then I also ran into another guy who claims that PBC used to be a small baptist seminary owned by a Baptist church. I don’t really know. That doesnt make sense that they are selling the RB campus because I recently saw more remodeling such as a cafe inside. Also, I thought Mall 205 would have been another campus because remember the plan about opening several campuses so that there’d be only a 15 min drive to any CBC campus.
The campus was originally built as a military academy in the early 1900s by Joseph Wood Hill. That’s why it has a fortress look to it. (You can see the plaque dedicated to Hill in the park on top of the butte.)
There was an armory, but it went up in flames (can’t remember the year). The domes and parking lot are where the armory was.
Judson Baptist seminary used the property for several years after the military academy was gone. I think that’s who BT purchased it from.
Just remembered: there was a jail facility on the east side of Rocky Butte. They leveled it when I-205 went through.
Speaking of which Joel Stockstill called gay people the F-ggot word in his last sermon this past week. It was a bit of a shock to me. If you doubt me go see for yourself.
I am curious how other people feel about this? I generally admire the guy, but is this any way for a minister to act? Especially with young people.
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I thought the jail was annexed by the Church at the Grotto. But what do I know?
This is earth-shattering news for CBC, if true, for many reasons. I think the biggest thing is that this undeniably shatters their tithing dogma. If they really can’t afford to stay on RB, why doesn’t their belief in tithing save them? Second, this is a slap in the face to the hundreds of families who built Dick Iverson’s dream facility with their giving and volunteer labor. As one of those people, it seems more than just a shame, it seem downright unconscionable that they would invest so much money into building satellite churches only to abandon home base because they can’t afford to stay.
Sure there are practical reasons for doing so, but had they really managed things properly they wouldn’t need to do this. And by properly I mean preach the Gospel and grow the church in the community rather than preaching tithing and and putting on airs.
From the article on CNN.
The numbers suggest about a 25% reduction. Wow.
anna, you’re so bad.
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yes, Marty you are absolutely right – very poor taste and shows his immaturity. A minister of the gospel, all of us really, should be reaching out to the gay community in the love of Christ especially from a public platform. Calling them insulting names only widens the huge gap between Gays and Christians.
I’m preaching to myself bcz I call Christians (the kind who show signs of ignorance and intolerance) names all the time. And I’m a Christian. so guess it should go both ways. . .
Looks like a lot of Americans agree:
Read more here.
I attended PBC in the mid-70's, when Dick Iverson, KKKevin Conner (not a typo) and that bunch were teaching and I have not one happy memory of the experience. Heavy legalism, racism (as "cleverly" suggested above), contempt for women and the individual were all part of the poison injected into sincere, seeking young minds. I wonder how many other former students have discussed their PBC experiences with a therapist. Mine was a Christian, and my story was not the first of its type she had heard. I would likely be a happier and more successful man today if I had never heard of that place.
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There are even books written on the subject of this Dominionistic and Authoritarian type of leadership and what it does to a person’s phsyche and spirit. Toxic Churches, True and False Revival and Twisted Scriptures among others.
I’m with you Alan – I’ve often wondered how much more successful I would be today if I would have used all that spark and energy I gave to my undeserving former pastor’s fanatical kingdom to build up my own success. And to think my spark and vitality wasnt even appreciated or good enough for their elite tastes. I ‘ve since repented of that and done a 180 turn in the direction of putting energy into what God has given ME to do and hopefully I’m making up for lost time. With God all things are possible. And I have much more mercy on the truly broken hearted and deceived now that I’ve been there.
We can take heart that the Lord promises to use even our troubled past for good in some way – we can help others who have been through a similar journey by listening to their stories and not rushing their ‘getting over it’ and we can warn others to stay clear of it IF they will listen. We can blog, speak out against the wrong doings if we want to. We can write books and reveal all the weirdness we encountered if we want to; because we live in America and we have the privilege of freedom. The Christian Culture seems to try to put a kabosh on that though by saying if you speak out you are bitter and unforgiving. But if you can work your way past THAT suppressing voice, your words can take wings and fly.
Thanks, DeTox. I was informed at PBC that only Christians can create good music (making the Jonas Brothers superior to Mozart, I guess), that non-Christian married couples can sort of love each other, but not as fully as believers (my parents, and possibly yours, were unable to confirm this); that we humans were so corrupt we could not even WANT to be good (sorry Dalai Lama; you’re not fooling anyone). Funerals were referred to as “homegoing services” in an attempt to demonize even the healthy, natural process of grief. Wide, empty smiles were all but a part of the dress code.
My dormmate in my first year at PBC was pretty cool: a movie buff like me with a quirky sense of humor. He later claimed to have become an atheist, and I understand that process of throwing the Baby out with the bath water. I suspect that we are born with an innate sense of something beyond ourselves, although not necessarily outside ourselves; i.e., we are wired to believe in God, or at least in spirit. One can seemingly be indoctrinated to ignore spiritual things, but clearly one can also be subjected to so much oppression, smothering dogma, hypocrisy and outright insanity as to feel that having no god is better than sharing their concept of god.
I absolutely feel that we are doing a good thing here, giving damaged souls a place to share and heal. That “bitter and unforgiving” line is the same sort of drivel Republican politicians offer when called to account for their crimes. God bless you all, gang.
“line is the same sort of drivel Republican politicians offer when called to account for their crimes.”
Wow, drive by troll slam! Really? You are going to ruin your whole argument by slamming on political party? Even when your whole statement had nothing to do with politics?
So, what? The Dems have no “crimes”? I can name many!
Your whole post is now LAME!
The relationship of Evangelical Christianity to the Republican Party would seem to be beyond dispute, and is one of the reasons these churches are the targets of so much just criticism. Wake up, people; there is no such thing as a "Christian Conservative", and everything has to do with politics.
Wow, this is so true. I’ve experienced a similar journey where I gave my teenage years to what I thought was God, but in reality was just the empty promises of a church and its blind leaders. I sacrificed a lot of youthful experiences all in the name of being “righteous for God” only to discover I missed out on some things I can never get back. Thankfully God pulled me out of the hyper-spiritual world in my early 20s and I was able to recover from the brainwashing early on, which has allowed me make that 180 degree turn around and pursue the dreams and goals I always had for my life. I still feel like I’m a few years behind where I want to be, but all in all I’m on the right path to doing what God wants me to and not some confused youth pastor. That’s why I’m so passionate about stopping these people from telling youth they have to give up who God made them to be in the name of “bearing your cross.†Yes we do need pastors and youth leaders, but we also need doctors and lawyers, professors, engineers, stock brokers, even corporate CEO’s who love and serve God and profess Jesus as Lord. Our society lacks people of faith in “worldly” industries working side by side with those who have no hope, no faith, no direction. Hence the reason why you have to search so hard to find anything of value in the marketplace. Churches have preached separation for so long that youth today go to Christian schools, work at Christian jobs, listen to Christian music, attend Christian events, and only have Christian friends. Over time this has created such a gap between the Christian world and the real world that young people of faith have no clue how to survive in the real world, which means once they enter it they lose their faith and we have very few adults working in high quality, professional careers representing Christ. All the separation from “evil” has done more harm than good.
Well said, Reformer. It appears to me that the Megachurch phenomenon represents a sort of “Siege Mentality”, where the world at large is portrayed as so loathsome and wrong-headed that true believers must huddle together with as many like-minded fellows as possible to reinforce their beliefs and hold back the barbarians. This is a desperate, sad take on the whole idea of church, but people are easier to control when they all think alike, as Emperor Constantine realized a long time ago.
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talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. How can his whole post be lame just bcz he commented on political drivel coming from Republicans.
unfortunately this is so often the case – we can only hope that the original authentic Jesus can reveal himself to those who have to leave it all behind out of pain and outrage.
so right Alan – this blog has been healing in more ways than one by connecting with others who have gone through similar weirdnesses. And the humor has always been a lift. btw, have you read any of the earlier threads on PBC? We never attended there but it made for some fun lol passing of time! You may find some old and new friends there since you spent time in the hollowed halls! (that’s right, i didn’t say hallowed!)
exactly Reformer- and it generates a fear-based way of life for those who stay in the confines of the compound. Often the youth that do flee the compound also throw out their relationship with the true Jesus bcz they are disgusted with the whole scene. That’s what so tragic — authentic Jesus was buried underneathe the rules and cast system of the church so they never had a chance to find out that his grace is infinite and he has no favorites. However, it could be that HE was never there to begin with and that would explain further why they wash their hands of the whole thing.
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I like this! so true so true-
and aren’t we as Christians huddling prematurely? There may be a time that we have to run to the hills and live in caves but must we so soon especially before it’s even necessary?? I have goals to fulfill yet for cyring out loud!
my sparring buddette and I have discussed this often since we both have artforms we are trying to produce fruit in – and she has brought up a really good and unfortunate point to consider: The Huddlers – those with Seige Mentality – have excelerated the damage done to the Christian reputation that it’s as if we can hear the trains coming for us off in distance. . .
thanks alot huddlers.
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There is no such thing as a Christian Conservative? Really? You need to be more specific because large portions of our society identify with that label.
Everything is political? Really? Hmm I go to work, raise my kids, go camping enjoy life with my church family. None of my life is very political. If you think everything is political Alan then maybe your worshiping government. Because only someone who thinks government can answer all problems would even consider the statement you made. Please correct me if I am wrong about your government worship.
DeTox said:
There may be a time that we have to run to the hills and live in caves but must we so soon especially before it’s even necessary??
I do not ever see a scenario where Christians should “run to the hills and live in caves”. If the time comes for persecution then I will be and raise my family to be a marauder, not run.
Paul was convicted and sent to Rome for trial. His boat crashed .. long story .. people healed .. king favored. … He left the Island with much money and gold .. and several boats and servants from the King. Did he run off to China and create legions of Christians in China? No, he took all that was given and went to Rome for his trial.
If we do not allow ourselves to be persecuted then people will never see the injustice in the world and will never look for Christ themselves.
The days of hills and caves are long past. Jesus told his disciples about persecution but said that their generation would not pass away before it came to pass. Christians have been treated with kid gloves in the U.S. but never seem to stop whining. I’m not referring to anyone on this forum; I mean right wing leaders like Pat Robertson, who said American Christians are today being treated like the Jews in Nazi Germany(!?). Certain Evangelicals seem to equate “disagreement” with “persecution”.
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So true. I think in an effort to speak up when it found it had a voice, the Christian Right has overdone it and brought alot of the so-called persecution on themselves. It reveals they are caught up in the hype that seems typical of them – like they thrive on the drama or something. But if you are going to make rash statements publically you are going to be challenged publically.
I think they have a right to speak – I understand the need to speak out and be heard. However, wisdom and intelligence should precede, and thus accompany, what’s said if to be taken seriously. I wonder how many Christians identify with Pat Robertson and feel he represents how we think? Have we asked him to be a spokesman? I know he speaks for the far right Christian, but his voice falls seiously short of representing many of us who follow Christ.
Unfortunately many ppl assume you are right wing if you are a Christian.
One of my favorite authors, Anne Lamott, is about as left as they come and she has had a true experience with Jesus Christ. Personally, I tend to hang in the middle and want the freedom to vote on the issues not on the party line. It’s safe to say that Pat Robertson does not represent what either of us feels or thinks.
If Lamont and others like her would get more attention- at least equal time- in the media (including the “Evangelical Media”) genuine Christians would not have to face such an uphill battle convincing people we are not fascist loons. The Right is more organized- I think because they want others to think for them, and because of that Siege Mentality I mentioned before- and noisier, i.e. more entertaining. They know how to use the media to represent themselves as the only real Christians and I wonder how many of them have ever actually read the Bible.
The Right is more organized- I think because they want others to think for them, and because of that Siege Mentality
I could not disagree more. The right is by far less organized then the left. Any organizations from the right tend to be real grass roots movements and the GOP as a whole is bottom up.
The Left is a few people in charge who dictate to the blind followers and government worshipers as to how they will organize; raise money and be activists.
One thing really stood out for me early on in the “war protests” … the left had ready made signs shipped all over the country before we even invaded Iraq. Compare that to the “tea parties” they are very organic and no single host/supplier.
No the left is much more organized and funded. The right is just currently the most upset.
You mean like the “grass roots” teabaggers at the Washington rally who were seen being coached by a Fox News producer in behind-the-scenes footage?
If I wanted to communicate with delusional right-wing idealogues I would join FreeRepublic. I’m outta here.
genuine Christians
Alan; here I thought I was chatting with genuine Christians. ‘teabaggers’ thats just gross and certainly not loving
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1. I don’t think her books are for sale in the Family Bookstores because her voice sounds different than what’s typical and last time i checked she had dreadlocks.
2. Maybe we could make buttons to pin on our lapels that say “I am not a Loon. I am a Progressive Christian”
3. Both The Left and The Right have an agenda and if you don’t agree with it you are frowned upon.
4. Both The Left and The Right have a history of being organized and generating media attention.
So true Detox, if you are a moderate or middle of the fence, you are hated by members of both the Left and the Right.
Alan,
I can totally relate to your first post. I feel that I wasted my time at PBC. I thought I was being shaped to be the person God wanted me to be but in reality it’s all about conforming to a megachurch image. I experienced and witnessed spiritual abuse, manipulation, control and racism, sexism and classism. My PBC education served no purpose and was a waste of time. It doesn’t apply and irrelevant to anywhere outside the MFI church world. My friends who took the Christian Humanities track tell me it was a complete joke! I think it was.
The best decision I ever did was leave PBC, I tossed away everything I learned there. God redirected my steps. I learned that my calling as a believer is to love God and live out according to His grace. It is not about conforming to a set of cultural ideas and for pleasing other people. And as a woman, my purpose is not only to be a pretty decoration among the pews or be a stepford wife sort. After leaving PBC, I pursued what I always wanted to do and it’s been an amazing blessing to use it for a purpose.
Sure, I regret wasting my time there but at the same time I wouldn’t have fully comprehended what spiritual abuse, false doctrine or been aware of the charismatic world if I didnt go through that. I now know what I dont want. I’m sure many of us will be parents someday. If I have a little girl, I’ll raise my daughter to be confident and not fall into the BS of gender roles, complementarianism and other unbiblical teachings many churches preach. It’s nothng but sexism with the name of religion. I’d teach my son to be open-minded and put his confidence in some dumb image of what a man of God should be like.
After seeking God and prayer, I discovered a non-charismatic church where I’m a part of for several years. It’s been a great blessing. Interestingly, many of my old CBC friends gossiped about me and never contacted or spoke to me. I lost contact with them. I decided that I dont want their drama or fake friendship. It was hard but I’m realizing that I’m better off without them. I do not need drama and manipulation from anyone.
Pertaining to the Evangelical collapse, this is worthy of consideration. I haven’t done the math, and the comments in the video are kind of cheesy, there’s still some startling facts to consider:
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Exactly. That’s what Jesus calls of us…too liberal for the right and too conservative for the left. I believe Christians aligning themselves with any political party is a very bad move.
Nina said:
Absolutely. What has distressed me most about seeing my own human heart is: how being immersed in megachurch culture convinced me that I was better than “outsiders” — be they nonChristians or nonCharismatics or whatever.
The megachurch image reeks of pride. And you can’t smell it unless you’ve been away from it for awhile. But everyone else can, and they react. And then the IMAGE says, “Oh, I’m being persecuted for Jesus.” Baloney. You’re being shunned for being an arrogant jerk.
It’s hard when the mirror of the Holy Spirit is turned on you — definitely not pretty. And harder still to do the right thing, and not turn away in denial and cling to the image that is so much more comfortable.
Good observations, Nina!
What is it you said Anna “the megachurch image reeks of pride.” And you can’t smell it unless you’ve been away from it for awhile. So true, so true!
I heard that the City Bible leadership is begging people who want to leave to not go to that little known church started by a former youth pastor over in NE Portland that preaches grace. Rumor has it they are furious about the success of that church and how many people from CBC are interested in it or going there. Their pride and arrogance are getting the best of them once again and they are using manipulation and control to get people to do what they want. So sad, when will they ever learn?
This is why we know how those in our former churches feel about anyone who doesn’t attend there or who dares to leave – because we felt this way when we were there. And we heard with our own ears what was said BY THE LEADERSHIP about those people who left so we know that it was said of us as well. On certain days, I cringe with embarrassment that I was ever connected there feeling superior. But better to deal with that blow to my pride than swimming in the pride of when I WAS there!
Anna and DeTox: Both of you are making large generalizations about “Mega Churches”. Not all Mega Churches are the same. Not all Charismatic Mega Churches are the same. New Beginnings in Gresham, with all its problems back in the day, never had that attitude you are talking about. I have family that attends there now and I understand it still doesn’t. Neither does Christian Faith Center in Federal Way Washington.
Really much of what you’re talking about is the attitude of MFI churches especially those that are closely affiliated with City Bible Church or City Church of Kirkland.
Former, you may be right. I do not seek to paint all megas with the same wide brush. The “I’m better” attitude is part of MFI, but it’s also in smaller churches who follow similar doctrine. I’m not sure what the tenet is that creates it. I’ll have to think about that. Any ideas?
Yes, I have a lot to say about the “I’m Better” attitude.
We have attended 2 churches (one under 500 members and a MFI church the other under 100 members Rhema church.) that have really had that syndrome bad. The works, you leave here you will not be in the will of God, you will not be blessed, we are “the only ones” getting this deeper knowledge .. you wont find it just any place. bla bla bla bla …….
I truly believe these are cult like tactics.
My definition of a cult is when a person tries to put himself/herself between you and God/Jesus/HolySpirit. This can be the flow of prayers, flow of forgiveness, flow of blessings, you name it.
We now go to a small church about 150 or so active members. We do not have this issue here, I think its because its a denomination and pastors leaders are allowed to come and go. What they are teaching is the same. The same Holy Spirit, same gifts, same doctrines, it just moves differently in a denomination. (4square btw)
Sorry your experiences at PBC were so bad, Alan R. (and Nina).
I also was at PBC (and attended BT) during the mid-70s to mid-80s, and my time there was absolutely life-changing — in a positive way. In fact, the corporate worship and Presence of the H.S., as well as the anointed Word that was preached and taught from the pulpit at BT in those days — and in the classrooms of PBC — seemed like a slice of heaven.
Alan, in regard to your derogatory statements about Dick Iverson and Kevin Conner — while being by no means perfect — I by contrast found them (as well as several others there) to be gifted, anointed, as well as honorable men of God.
I suggest that rather than make disparaging, public remarks here, you instead follow Jesus’ injunction in Mt. 18 and contact them privately through City Bible or MFI.
-joe
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Yes our points of reference happen to be from MFI churches but I don’t think the pride thing that Anna was suggesting is limited to MFI. I tend to think human nature defaults to this “we’ve got the answers and thus must be better than those we don’t” attitude in any organziation especially if it’s successful in any way. I do it too, having to work through my feelings of annoyance toward those who follow everything in the Christian culture as well as my feelings of distain toward those who adopt an elitest mentality. I may not be currently part of an organization but am I ‘better than’ those that are? I know I’ve gone through enough to want to steer clear from elitism in any form.
I think it’s something we all have to work at – we tend to get religious about what we believe and impose our own code upon others. It’s not just in the spiritual realm. The Obama worshippers sing his praises and practically demand that the rest of us do too…they are very religious about it. My friend says the other soccer moms are very dogmatic about how many soccer practicces and games to attend. It’s everywhere.
Bottom line, I don’t like anyone telling me what I must think or do. I am open to suggestion but not open to the controlling voices that seem to be everywhere I turn. Present whatever it is to me but don’t dogmatically insist. That way I can mull it over and decide for myself.
DeTox:
I don’t like anyone telling me what I must think or do.
Who does? I used to work for an Israeli company, almost everyone I worked with was Jewish – practicing or not. Out of the very few others like me who are not Jewish, I was the only Christian.
That being said, I learned an interesting ideology. Most of the Israelis either practicing or not ate Kosher. At no time would they ever hold me to the standard of eating Kosher. They had a higher standard then I did with food, but they did not expect everyone in the world to have that standard. Why would they, God did not ask me to eat Kosher (for the practicing ones).
So my ideology changed. I may have standards and live my life a certain way as a Christian. But how can any Christian expect sinners to be anything but sinners? Why would I not expect someone who is not held by love to hate others, hurt others or be selfish?
I really believe the worst people out there are people who think they know more then everyone else on how everyone else should live. Controlling people through money or government. That includes President Obama!
Religions subject people who do not believe to suffer under their beliefs.
Governments subject people to do or not do things based on someone’s morals.
Spouses and alike subject their other to do things by physical or verbal abuse. abuse love.
Obviously I am not talking about civility. Nobody should be allowed to hurt, steal, kill or anything else to others. The government should have the ability to keep civility.
Sounds like the Joseph-coat thing all over again … the superiority thing nags at me, esp. where the Lord sent me to so-called non-charismatic churches – I had spiritual gifts no one else in the congregation had – on the one hand I felt superior, on the other, deeply grieved that not only did they NOT want spiritual gifts, revival, et al, but actually feared it and anyone who had the gifts. So, for me, it was the Joseph treatment of sorts … as in beaten and thrown in a hole …
One of the formative visions I had, was a lesson in being discrete and exercising propriety with the gifts … they aren’t to be flaunted for the sake of building a name or reputation or trying to start something on my own, rather, they are to be yielded to the Father for HIS use at HIS leading – there really was no reason for me to tell anyone about the gifts I had, as that prompted the jealousy, fear, etc., that led to my expulsion …
You know, when you read the Joseph story, him interpreting his dreams wherein his brothers were serving him, etc., it was in effect boasting to them and provoked them …
So what’s to say that the guy up on stage doing the “Joseph” thing (bragging up on the congregation), isn’t addressing a number in attendance who have learned their Joseph lesson and are remaining quiet, humble, and waiting on the leading of God to use their gifts?
I once boasted of my guitar skills to a guy I’d recently met, who turned out to be far more skilled at it than I … and I’ve had that go the other way … so, what’s up with the superiority from the pulpit thing … there may just be an angel of the Lord sitting in that congregation, or a son or daughter who has been to the cross and walking in the power of the resurrection … it may just be that the ONLY advantage the SP’s have over the congregation, is the slight elevation of the pulpit over the people …
So we agree on that Former!
I guess the key would be to filter our voice so that any ‘i am right and you are wrong’ attitude won’t seep through our words, spoken or written. As we both know, it brings out the worst in others. Wouldn’t it be great to present our opinions in a way that causes people to pause and at least consider.
But then, there ARE those times when I can’t help the rant just to get it off my chest! I know I don’t sound my most humble then!
So true Scrupe – we all identify with various facets of Joseph’s story! And I do agree that if he would have kept his mouth shut he wouldn’t have gotten into the pit in the first place. But then you consider he was the next to the youngest in birth order and thus lorded over by all those bossy big brothers – what human wouldn’t burst out with the details of a dream like that at some point?? He hadn’t learned wisdom yet. But how do we learn wisdom except through first being unwise and the hard knocks that follow. Joseph’s story gives us great hope for our end being greater than our beginning and that vindication will come in God’s timing. And that we can be of help to others no matter what hard knocks we’ve endured along the way.
hehe – reminds me of the Late Night TV hosts with their chairs higher than the guests. First of all, it looks utterly ridiculous bcz Letterman and Conan are both 10 ft tall so WHY do they need a higher chair? But worse than that, the guest has to strain their necks for eye contact. Leno’s new set at least has the chairs on an equal level. But I wander from the point which is yes, in the scheme of things, the SP’s may perceive themselves as having an elevated advantage because they have the mic, the final say, the collective eye on them which they probably get addicted to. In the long run that seems like a disadvantage.
Beg to differ. I believe that the Church will keep growing, simply because it is becoming more like the world.
I believe the Church will keep growing until America falls to religion, and those who are not in Church will be persecuted, imprisoned, and killed.