Job Well Done
Posted on March 31st, 2009 by The Reformer into the When We Quit categoryMr. Johnpaul,
Excellent post man and really, really good points. Although I'm sad to see you go, it's been a true pleasure reading all of your witty writings over the years and hearing someone say the exact same things that are in my head. I hope you are at true peace with your decision. And I hope you know that you've reached farther into the lives of others then you actually realize. Finding this blog (and helping launch our church) have been the two greatest things that have happened to me in my spiritual walk because they helped set me free from years of mind altering, falsified religion.
Job well done my friend. Job well done.
You will be missed!
Alex
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March 31st, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Yes, JP, Catalyst, and All,
Your voices will be missed - such an excellent blend of humor and intolerance for
hypocrisyreligious BS. We will never forget all the laughter and epiphany we found here. Therefore, to merely say thanks seems insufficently lame.I’m sure that anyone who found refuge here will smile when you come to mind. Ya, and maybe we’ll even say a little prayer for you, hoping you and your families are doing well. Do you think God listens to the likes of us, we who have abandoned the prayer
hypeformulas for generating guaranteed answers? We can only have faith that He does.This blog was lifeline to us when we left our former church. It was a relief to find other people who experienced some of the same things we went through when we had been made to feel we were the ones with the problems. This forum helped us learned to speak out about all that–just to speak out period. [NOTE: But we will continue to ask questions. Just bcz this blog is closing doesn’t mean we are reverting back to the ways of half truths and silence.]
You guys were blogging early on when the NW MFI church representatives would poke their heads in to proclaim blogging is a sin, a bad thing, a time waster, and unholy. Because you dared to point out some discrepancies in how those churches were doing things, you, we all, received alot of flack.
What’s so odd is NOW lots of those same
whinersjudgmental folks have their own blogs with very silly names as if they took some seminar on blogging (the same seminar must’ve proclaimed facebook as the OK Christian Online Community). They copy EVERYthing. Originality alludes them. They’ll never be as intelligent and snarky as you.You have most likely begun to move on to new pastures. But watch out! They will eventually discover your latest project and
wish they’d have thought of it firstyou will see their copy of it next year, releasing it as if it were their own ideabecause they have never learned to give credit to whom it is due.April 1st, 2009 at 9:02 am
So, Cat? Reformer? Are you closing the blog? It’s hard to imagine a church without the Pope, but perhaps the cardinals can make do.
April 1st, 2009 at 11:52 am
It’s hard to believe that this blog has been seen by almost HALF A MILLION different people.
That’s really pretty amazing, actually.
That’s not just 500,000 “hits”. It’s actually 500,000 different people who have visited.
:)
April 1st, 2009 at 11:56 am
I'm still here…although in a small role. I've got lots going on in my family and career life these days. Besides I am more focused on the big picture rather then just CBC. I gave up on them a long time ago. My real battle is with all of Christiandom as a whole. CBC, The City Church…they are just a spec in the water of the bigger problem (and very insignificant in the national platform of mega-churches).
Good things are happening however. Little by little the change is taking place. Numbers at many mega-churches are dwindling and the amount of money going into these celebrity ministries are going down. I think people are finally realizing it's about Jesus and nothing else. Plus when Christians can support a liberal black man over an old white conservative, the tide is definitely shifting.
April 1st, 2009 at 1:57 pm
JP- You are awesome dude! You truly have a great grasp on the gospel and it is evident in your farewell letter. I have dropped by from time-to-time and I have watched your growth from over the years in the gospel. So now that you have quit blogging, are you gonna quit drinking and smoking cigars???????? If so, I I will be in town at the end of April and I will make sure not to tempt you with an invite to McMennamins pub on 33rd & Killingsworth.
April 1st, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Yeah, I knew the blog was toast when I sent the following Windows Desktop Background to JP and Cat and neither of them posted it.
http://www.generationchurch.org/downloads/hopeoftheworld1024.jpg
Though personally, I think the slogan needs to be tweaked a little.
http://www.vjam.net/temp/hairoftheworld1024.jpg
April 1st, 2009 at 11:10 pm
This blog was life to me at a time when I was reeling in brokennes from an experience in a local church. It helped me process the pain when no one else did. When I decided to trust again and forgive and go back to "institutionalized church" it became harder to be here. There were many times I felt like you guys just went too far. I have to tell you JP and Justin—when you took shots at Doug and Bob for being molested—-that was too far. I asked Justin to remove all of my posts, but he refused. And then made fun of me the next day on the blog for asking. At the end of the day, the church—CBC—or any church will hurt people because IT IS people. But I think this blog has probably hurt more people than the church it tried to "correct." And done it with eyes wide open. The church hurts people, but WE are the church. We all just hurt one another. Which is why we need a Saviour. I am sorry for all of my posts on here, and am really moved JP by your apologies. May God bless you as you go from here.
April 2nd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
So let me get this straight - No more City Business Church blog? We can all go home now?
Well, there has been some good discussions on here. I am glad I took part in it. Although I disagreed much with many on here as I am still a Spirit Filled Charismatic Christian who still has faith in God’s healing, hope and prosperity. But you have challenged me to look up and learn for myself why I believe what I do.
As for church size – It’s not the size of the church it’s what you do with it
I have gone to great Mega Churches and bad small churches. I now go to a great small church. Size doesn’t matter! 
Thanks,
April 2nd, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Johnpaul is an idiot. He’ll be back.
April 2nd, 2009 at 5:45 pm
We all have to grow up sometime.
April 2nd, 2009 at 6:59 pm
In the beginning, this blog used to have intellectual, deep and meaningful discussions that were not allowed. Why? because most charismatic leaders are only interested in flaunting their spiritual position and prestige. I refuse to go somewhere to simply tell some megachurch celebrity pastor how great he is. I have turned away from charismaticism and never want to be in a place like CBC or any charismatic church. I’ll admit that I cant stand charismatic fundamentalists or ultra-charismatics who talk in cliches.
Sometimes I’d have to say that certain posts were unfruitful, lame and sometimes made me mad. Yes, those insensitive comments about molestation were offensive and not that different from an immature pastor who’d call a gay person a “fag” in the pulpit.
Yes, it’s true that since church is made up of people, we’ll offend and hurt each other. But that is why we need to be open, discuss and listen to each other instead of manipulating the person into silence or trying to push things under the carpet and put on a fake charismatic mask.
Charismaticism is losing its popularity. Almost everyone I talked to recently want the power and presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives but not at all interested in phony movements and charismatic religion. Charismaticism has not produced real, lasting spiritual fruit and had no impact in the world or the church. Mostly it’s a trend that’s dying, because charismaticism tends to be very myopic and lacking balance of depth, reason and a more solid foundation.
As for me, the blog has sometimes been helpful to talk through, process and challenged me to think about the things that I took for granted.
We should all grow, heal, and realize that it’s okay to be temporarily mad, disillusioned or upset at certain things. It is stupidity to ignore symptopns. When I experienced this, it indicated that something was spiritually wrong.
Once I left this unhealthy, spiritual environment, I experienced the fullness of Christ and the richness of His grace. I hope the best for everyone on this journey.
April 3rd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
So glad you are still here too Reformer! We’ve always felt on your page!
What you are saying we so relate to:
At first when we left the old church, we thought the problem was with just the leaders in our old church. Then realized it was MFI doctrine problems + the bad behavior of the leaders in the old church. The more the stories come out from all over the world, we are finding that it IS a problem with Christiansdom becoming celebrity driven, buying into a lie that God has favorites which is breaded by what lies at the heart of the Latter Rain theology that has major error in it. More on that later. . .or if anyone is interested in reading up on it a bit here are a few articles that have helped us:
1. Why Latter Rain and Dominion Theology is a Lie
2. Articles in Latter Rain Directory / The modern day prophet and apostle movement in the Church
April 3rd, 2009 at 11:57 pm
Right on, DeTox! When I found out what Dominionism is, then I could see the detrimental effect it is having on the Church. ie, have you been following what the NAR is up to these days? Aaarrrghhh!
April 4th, 2009 at 1:42 am
OMG - Dutch with his latest downloads from heaven and offering to allow ppl to watch his conference online video for $60 and then other NAR higher ups still supporting Todd Bentley who just recently married his mistress after divorcing his wife. . . I can barely stand to watch, read, any of it!
Of course, the worst of it is the type of behavior Bently gets away with - knowing that in order to bring about physical healings he actually punched ppl in the stomach and hit them in the face bcz the Spirit led him. . . that kind of thing bothers me more than the new marriage stuff. Jesus may have spit in the dust and made paste to put on a man’s eyes to heal him, but never do we read in the Bible that he was physically abusive to bring healing about. Tell me, how can the NAR or any Christian condone the kicking punching thing?? Who is that gullible??
April 4th, 2009 at 5:21 am
OK, so what’s a “NAR”?
About Jesus spitting in the dirt, I believe there may be a simple symbology in that … Jesus said “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” … so the ’spit’ would seem to be symbolic of what proceeds from the mouth of God … and the dirt is symbolic of the flesh, that which man is made of …
Mixing the stuff of SPIRIT and FLESH together, and then rubbing it in the eyes of a man where he can SEE it, forces the man to see SPIRIT and FLESH together, side by side, in stark contrast / comparison - wherein hopefully the day comes where the man declares of the things of the flesh “THAT’S NOT WHAT GOD’S WORD SAYS” …
In a metaphoric sense, mixing spit (word) and dirt (flesh) contrasts LIFE and DEATH, TRUTH and FALSEHOOD, with the aim I’m sure, of showing the man the difference … teaching the man to discern between spirit and flesh and to finally SEE spiritually …
The last couple years I spent in the IC, I became aware of the Lord giving me the “mud in your eyes” treatment, as I simply observed the goings on and He’d ask me “son, what do you see?” I’d answer Him and He’d follow up with some mind-blowing (eye-opening) revelation.
For example, sitting in the meeting one Sunday morning, the Lord asked what I saw and I replied, “Lord, I see the pipe organ” and He replied “Yes, these people worship the pipe organ” - later He asked “son, where is my cross” and I looked all over the sanctuary for the cross they occasionally wheeled out from the back room (it was set in a 5 gallon paint bucket with concrete, with wheels) … that Sunday, they did not bring it out of the closet - but finally I spotted one of those short 12″ tall brass crosses on the communion table / altar and exclaimed “There it is Lord” and He replied “Yes, my cross is a small thing to this church” …
Each of those things pierced my heart in a way that’s hard to describe - it left me grieving, even ashamed, for how the Lord had been relegated to such an insignificant role in that church … in a sense, he ‘rubbed my eyes’ in the dirt of that place, while speaking truth to me and I saw clearly the truth about what I’d been involved in for a lifetime and called “church” … it was more a museum of Christian antiquity than the active / faithful body of Christ come together to worship Him …
April 4th, 2009 at 10:04 am
NAR = New Apostolic Reformation. It’s the guys who have named themselves apostles in order to bring about their kingdom. There are a bunch of men signed on, including Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Chuck Pierce, Bill Johnson, Che Ahn, Rick Joyner, Wes Campbell, John Arnott…
I think you get the picture. As you stood back and saw what was happening in your IC, well, stand back and watch what is happening in the charismatic church at large. CBC is on the fringe, but the same dynamics are evident.
DeTox, re: Bentley: You hit it perfectly. All the focus is now on his marriage troubles. Examining his doctrines and behavior is not even considered. It’s the biggest deflection effort I’ve ever seen. No one is rethinking his “angelic” visits, his weird attempt at baptisms, his coronation by the NAR big shots, his exaggerated claims of miracles, his drunkeness (we’re not talking a coupla brews), etc. No. He’s being “restored” while he left his wife and kids and married the mistress. He never once publicly repented for that or for his heresies. But he’s being groomed to continue his shenanigans as soon as the NAR declares he’s “restored.” It’s enough to make a person spit nails.
I’m going for a walk to cool off….
It finally stopped raining!
April 4th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Scrupe said:
GREAT STUFF SCRUPE! I never thought of it that way! and how comforting to think God-Mud is what opened our eyes while living a life of entrapment in the IC when it took quite awhile to get the deception that had been engrained in us off and out: if you leave ‘the covering’ God will no longer bless you and make you fruitful. Bring on the Mud and let it expose satanic lies for what they are! FREE US LORD!
Once we got out, I remember when we were first blogging here and you were blogging alot about the bad IC stuff and I was saying “ya but the church we are in now isn’t like that” which is still true. But the difference is the Mud has further opened my eyes and I can see it for what it is: a very nice and authentic church that gets THE job done but not where I’m to expend MY energy since I’ve already done that back in old church and God just isn’t having me spending my time living up to man’s ideas of what is fruitful. So Scrupe, I feel much more on the page you are on now than i did 4 years ago. I guess the Mud had to work itself into my heart and brain. Feeling so much freer now! Free to do the actual thing God created ME for and apparently that doesn’t include getting on board of another man’s dream/work even if that work is golden and moving forward. Alas, there are only so many hours in a day, so many years in a life, and the beauty of finally doing what God has created YOU for is a gift. I’d say it does take MUD to see that clearly especially now days in the body of Christ where the common herd is so into group-think.
The NAR = looks like Anna answered that one for you! Click here if you are interested in reading what Wiki says about it and here if you want to read what Let Us Reason has to say. It’s so nice that others have researched all this so thoroughly. More Mud, I’d say!
April 4th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Anna said,
Now YOU”VE hit the nail on the head there Anna! You are so right, a perfect way to deflect till the angel stuff dies down. Then when he comes back the gullibles may be even MORE receptive to angels and whatnot. Hopefully his true heart will continue to be exposed for what it is which certainly doesn’t resemble anything close to the heart of God. (Let’s not foget that he put ATMs in the foyers of the Healing Revival to make it easy for people to access their money immediately!)
Ya, that’s what it does to you! You can’t help become incensed. But it’s when we get mad enough we start looking for answers.
Hey, if you are into reading, here’s a rivetting close up of life in Rick Joyner’s ministry. Joyner, btw, is the one grooming Bentley for his comeback or who Bentley is submitting himself to. . .The article, by Mishel at Deception Bytes, is a window into the Joyner Kingdom - real eye opener. It’s called Adrift in the River of God
April 4th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Thanks Anna and DeTox … that NAR stuff sickens me in spirit - for what it’s done to the name of Christ in the world and to the believers who have been used and abused by it …
There was a couple who stayed with us for a few days once, who claimed to be apostles, but I didn’t witness to that … we’d met through the net and although they expressed the desire for real f2f fellowship, their 2-3 days here were spent surfing the net over our network while my wife and I waited on them like guests. The following summer they announced they wanted to come stay for 2 weeks, but at the time, our brother-in-law was on his deathbed with pancreatic cancer, so we told them it was not a good time for us. Oblivious to what we were going through, they heaped all manner of abuse, insults and over-lording on us and we had to sever all ties with them. Since then, they’ve created multiple identities on another forum I used to frequent to slander and curse us as well as flood my web site guest book with slander, such that I had to remove the guest book and temporarily post a web page in response to their crap until they stopped their antics.
It’s amazing to me how some of the self-proclaimed apostles I’ve met came to call themselves that … the common thread seems to be whenever a group of dominionist charismatics get together and blow prophetic smoke up one another’s butts, they cling to every ‘prophe-wish’ someone utters as if it’s a promise/guarantee from God Himself. The couple who claimed to be apostles had received such a word from a mutual friend, which they tossed out there like a credential I was supposed to accept, and kiss their signet ring, I guess.
I know I’m not healed of all that crap yet and have likely over corrected my own theology in response - for example, presently I’m of the belief that there are NO apostles today - that the apostolic order in place when Paul wrote about apostles, prophets, et al, in Ephesians, is a thing of the past - dispensational depletion I guess it’s called … of course, that doesn’t mean the Lord stopped gifting His people, but our calling is NOT the title to some hierarchical office, but SONSHIP. For in the SON, all gifts and functions are operational.
For example, where an apostle lives to ‘plant’, there have been some here who have served to ‘plant’ in me, others have spoken prophetically, others have come along side to speak words of edification as one gifted with shepherding … but that I am aware, not one of the people who did so considered themselves an apostle, prophet or pastor … the Father’s work was accomplished by brothers and sisters who were simply moving in the Spirit … seeing the body work so seamlessly, so organically, I just don’t get why anyone would want to wear the “prophet’s” hat exclusively, when the higher calling is “son” … when the entire wealth of the Father’s kingdom / house is at the disposal of every believer … I mean, I’d rather live in my Father’s house 24×7 than be content with seeing Him only at the office - that to me is the difference between sonship and being content with a “title” in God’s organization …
April 6th, 2009 at 12:15 am
Thanks for the references, DeTox. I will have to expore them a bit more.
‘Scrupe, what a story. You need to get rid of your bitterness, Bro. (You get the inside joke, I’m sure!)
I truly believe that there could be apostles today. They probably go by the term “missionary” — you know the guys like Jim Eliot who give their lives to bring the gospel to people groups, and establish a body of believers in that place. There are probably inner-city apostles, maybe like David Wilkerson. And I bet they would never put that title on their letterheads, but their fruit names them.
April 7th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Scrupe - so sorry to hear about the abusive creepy ppl who took advantage of your hospitality. That type of thing teaches us to instinctively run the other way when you sense one of that ‘kind’ is near. That type and those who have their same addiction refuse to take NO for an answer so to IGNORE them completely is the only recourse.
I go out of my way now to guard myself from that type only because I’ve gone through enough strange encounters of my own with that type. It can never go well because these types are completely obsessed. So the NO EYE CONTACT rule is one way to avoid engaging if you see them in public (which is rare now bcz less and less do we share the same oxygen) or the DO NOT HIT REPLY rule if you receive one of their forward emails! Better yet, BLOCK their emails!
I agree that the 5-fold gift thing happens naturally as the Spirit leads and with no titles - I love how you said it:
and how Anna said it:
April 7th, 2009 at 8:25 am
no pressure Anna, whenever you feel a need to explore. Finding that every person has their own path of discovery and timeline!
Well said about real apostles probably go by the term ‘missionary’. The real ones most likely shun titles!
April 9th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Unbelievable. I have run across the types who cannot take no. I ran into one who didnt like me and started giving me the cold shoulder and behaving very rudely to me right away. And why? because I didnt give him attention and look at to him. I treat them just like anybody else. I could sense a strong arrogance from those people.
Yes, I say run away from those people. It’s even funnier when I receive emails or myspace invites from those who put apostle or prophet in their myspace name as though it’s a pHD title. I find it amusing and I simply hit delete.
April 9th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
It is amusing, nina. I wonder when our friend SPFD is going to add “apostle” to his PhD?
April 10th, 2009 at 4:55 am
You guys and your apostle talk remind me of a story …
Years ago when I started a small egroup for discussing the prophetic. There were just 8-10 members and we became rather close for an egroup, eventually calling each other, etc.
One of the members had an experience with a man and his wife who claimed to be apostles - the woman had let the ‘apostles’ move in with her for a while, whereupon she found herself supporting them, cooking and cleaning for them, while they “focused on the word of God” … the man smoke and drank and she supplied his habits … running herself ragged, she wised up quickly and went to give them the boot, whereupon they desperately tried to regain control of her with statements like “you KNOW you hear God through us”, etc. She stuck to her guns and gave them the boot. Still the couple harassed her through email, phone and stalked her at work …
Others in our little egroup loved on her, built her up, shared scripture with her, but try as she might, she couldn’t escape the condemnation … I hadn’t really been involved in that conversation as I had no experience / words of wisdom to offer. My one reply to her on the subject was simply:
Well, she wrote later that the name “Aposthole” had delivered her to a fit of holy laughter and she was set free of the condemnation.
The egroup dissolved a year or so later and our communication eventually stopped, except for the occasional Christmas letter type of thing with kid pics … we hadn’t communicated in a couple of years, until the day after Karen and I had the blow up with the apostle pair that took advantage of us and then became abusive when we gave them the boot.
My old egroup friend was moved by the Spirit to write me the day after we booted the apostles from our lives, with a simple word, to the effect that the Father was happy with us and that we had “passed the test” … what was funny is what happened as I read my old friend’s email: the Spirit whispered to me “Apostholes” - reminding me of the word I’d given to my friend years before, that now was coming back to bless and deliver me …
We had a hearty laugh about that and weren’t at all troubled with condemnation from giving those false apostles the boot.
April 10th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
In other words: “These are the words of Him who holds the seven stars in His right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands, ‘I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false…’”
Keeping my love fresh and receiving His approval will trump any guilt trips that might be thrown from those other guys.
April 14th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
To quote Justin,
Listen to him people, JP has done this before. I wish all the crap he wrote about Grace would be a true genuine conversion, and it may be for the moment, but naw… he’ll be back.
He’ll backslide from Grace and you want to know why? The blog is power and power is an addictive thing. Addictions are not easy to give up… he’ll fall off the wagon. He always does. All he needs to do is get some beers with Erick and well…
September 4th, 2009 at 12:45 am
Hello. You guys are TOTALLY amazing. Thank you for your beautiful music.