On the cover of this month’s Charisma Magazine is the question "What can we know for sure about the end times?" The article inside proceeds to point out that a number of prominent charismatic leaders believe we are living in the last days and that its fever is spreading virally around the planet as a confluence of world events is igniting widespread debate about the second coming.
"[Tim] LaHaye, John Hagee, Hal Lindsey, David Hocking, Paul McGuire and other prophecy teachers say the formation of Israel as a nation in 1948, the ingathering of Jews to Jesus, the rise of global anti-Christ political structures, the military alliance between Russia and Iran, and Iran’s threats to annihilate Israel are prophecy fulfillments or conditions that could allow for the fulfillment of prophecies regarding the rapture, Great Tribulation and Second Coming.
They contend that geopolitical events—the possibility of war between Iran and Israel; calls for a global government, economic system and currency; increasing immorality and lawlessness; devastating natural disasters; global warming; the pending biometric national identification system; the rebuilding of Babylon and the drying up of the Euphrates River—foreshadow events prophesied in the Bible.
A key unfulfilled sign involves a Matthew 24 prophecy that the gospel would be preached to the whole world and then the end will come. The top mission agencies are [now] predicting that within 10 years all of the earth’s 6,000 people groups will have the gospel preached to them.
[And most Christians agree.] A recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found 79 percent of American Christians believe in the Second Coming. But on the timing and circumstances of Christ’s return, Christians are divided. About a third—34 percent—say it will occur after the world situation reaches a low point, 37 percent say it’s impossible to know the circumstances preceding Christ’s return, and 4 percent say Christ will return when the world situation improves."
Now I've never been a big "end times" person, but this debate is interesting to follow. Although I think most of these guys just like to blow smoke in order to sell books, get TV ratings and demand higher paychecks from speaking engagements, I am curious as to whether my generation or my kid’s generation will see the return of Christ? But as Jesus said in Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour…" Guess we'll keep talking about it until it happens.
(For the full article CLICK HERE)
Reformer, I printed out the article to read later so will get back with you. In perusing the article, I notice that C. Peter Wagner, founder of the NAR, is staying true to his Domionist escatology that the rapture is merely part of our escapist mentality. He’d rather stay around to inherit lots of money from others that work hard for it and elitely reign in this life in prosperity. Where will that money come from I wonder? Especially with the current economic crisis going on.
Btw, I wonder if any of the prophets from the NAR will predict the rapture?? HA! The certainly didn’t predict the economic crisis!
I can’t even relate to evangelical end-times theology any more … perhaps it’s because I first read about it in Lindsey’s “Late Great Planet Earth” original edition back in the mid-70′s … so I “watched the clouds” for some 30 years – effectively a generation – reluctant even to subscribe to a magazine for longer than a year lest Jesus come and some pagan get my remaining issues of TV Guide …
But coming out, the Spirit has done such a work on me, best summarized by a few questions:
When Jesus gave us a key to understand Him in John 6:63 saying “MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT”, why then do we rush to literal interpretations?
When Jesus said “The kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU” (Luke 17:20), why do we look for it to come in and to this fallen world and seemingly NEVER look to the kingdom and glory of God unfolding within us?
Why do Christians make spiritual warfare to “possess the land” and occupy it for Jesus Christ, when we can’t even possess the 2-3 pounds of flesh between our ears, nor keep our own members from sin of the flesh?
Why do Christians treat the book of Revelation as if it were “The Revelation of Satan” when in fact, it is the “Revelation of Jesus Christ”?
I have come to the belief that Revelation speaks to the NEW and 3rd TEMPLE which is IN US. Ref: 1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19, etc. It does NOT speak to a new stone temple (Matthew 23:38, Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24). We are the temple, it is within our flesh that the spirit of anti-christ tries to rise up and demand our worship and from which we must flee to the hills (Psalm 121:1) where the Lord resides (metaphorically).
The enemy is overcome in our flesh, the kingdom unfolds in us, death and hell are conquered in us by the power of Christ.
The world will go on as it always has … and the kingdom is always unfolding, the 2nd coming of Christ, IN US …
The likes of Lindsey, Van Impe, La Haye, need to soak their collective heads …
DCG, the NARs are begging for money just like everyone else. I don’t know why they just don’t prophesy it in and “possess the gates” like their conferences say. LOL
‘Scrupe, agree with a lot. But I don’t think we have to look at it in an either/or way. Like many things, fulfillment happens in multiple ways.
Yes, we do seem to forget that it is God’s purpose that the Lord be revealed in us. But then I don’t see any way around the Scriptures which are point blank about the physical return of the Lord Jesus (or the physical coming of a Messiah from the OT POV). To me, it’s a both/and … and we better not ignore one for the other.
Interesting theory Scrupe. So you don’t think there will ever be a second coming of Christ on this earth?
Reformer, check out J. Preston Eby … he has an interesting take on the “2nd coming” … there are a considerable number of passages in the NT that speak to the Lord coming, not just some distant ’2nd coming’, but again and again and again … HE:
Comes like a thief in the night
Comes like the lightning that flashes east to west
Comes on the clouds
If he comes like lightning (highly visible and very very loud / startling) he won’t be very effective in being ‘stealthy’ like a thief, and vice versa – so those would seem to talk about different returns … I’ve experienced the ‘lightning’ type returns – can’t say I know whether or not He’s visited me like a thief in the night … I’ve seen Him on the clouds in glory when singing a spiritual song of praise/prophesy … so I’ve experienced the ’2nd coming’ in my being born again and being baptised in the spirit, I’ve experienced countless ‘comings’ through out my life as HE’S touched me, healed me, inspired me, taught me, etc.
The proof text is a passage in/around John 14 (?) wherein HE says (to the effect) “I will not leave you alone, I will come to you…”
The point is, which of these are the 2nd coming? In the days between the resurrection and the ascension he appeared numerous times – why aren’t any of those enumerated ? Should I or any other believer who has experienced Christ in their walk of faith, look for one grand 2nd coming somewhere off in the future, or, should we expect Christ to show up in our lives as he promised, at any time and in any way of his choosing?
I imagine Reformer, that what the vast majority of Christians refer to as the “2nd coming” is in fact, the LAST coming or maybe the FINAL return of Christ?
There will of course be a culmination of all things one day, wherein Christ will be revealed as the Lord of all.
As for my view on the so-called ‘rapture of the saints’ scripture, I do have a different view of it … I believe the “clouds” that he comes with are in fact, clouds of witnesses – that is, those who are with and in Christ who have gone on before … they are with him completely, with no body to bind them to this world … but the born again, are in a kind of limbo – as the scriptures say, they are not of this world, are seated with Christ in heavenly places, are a new creation, are kings and priests, temples of the living God, nevertheless, they are here because of their physical bodies … they are in effect, caught between 2 worlds – there is a very real sense that my spirit, having been renewed and a new creation, is in fact already caught up in the cloud of witnesses with Christ, wherein I am a visible testimony of the power and glory of Christ in this life – I am, as you are, in a sense “lifted up” with Christ or ‘caught up’ with Christ for all the world to see …
The other thing that bugs me about the whole rapture theology is, that it ignores some very important scriptures … it is said two walking up a hill, one taken, one left … two asleep in bed, one taken, one left … and that it will be like the days of Sodom and Gomorrah … well, if it is like Sodom, we need to ask “just who was taken, and who was left” … it was the WICKED who were taken, the righteous were left to continue making children for God … likewise Noah – it was the WICKED who were taken and the righteous who were left, once again, to continue making children for God … there’s the parable of the wheat and tares … the TARES (symbolic of the wicked) are removed first, before the wheat is harvested ….
SO with so many examples of the WICKED being (in effect) raptured, why is it we assume it’s the saints who will be raptured and the earth left to the wicked? What’s to stop Satan from just slaughtering all who remain?
The rapture theology is fairly new anyway – spawned in the mid 1800′s and tied to dispensational theology …
‘Scrupe: Good thoughts, even if I can’t quite swallow all your spiritual interp.
Precisely, anna.
While mentioning Bickle, Hagee, Wagner, it’s interesting to me that a “charismatic” magazine would have an article mainly focusing on, referencing and quoting from so many authors who are unabashed anti-charismatics, such as Lindsey, LaHaye, Hocking, Jenkins, Criswell, etc. (that they’re also poster-boys for the promotion of the Dispensationalist notion doesn’t surprise me). In fact, many of these are the same guys who view modern-day charismatics as being “of the devil.”
But I guess they felt it was OK — if they were actually contacted by Charisma for this article, which I assume they were — to not only share the venue with demon-possessed Christians, but also to allow a mag promoting it to feature them…..just so long as it furthered their personal agendas.
-joe
Hi Joe, missed seeing you around, bro.
One of the things that stirs my imagination Joe, is the Bible record of how the scholars had the coming of God’s Messiah all figured out, yet when HE stood before them, to be examined by the temple leaders in the dead of night, they did not recognize HIM. And following HIS resurrection, the men on the road to Emmaus, didn’t recognize HIM even as HE testified the real meaning of the sriptures and how apparently their expectations of the Messiah were not God’s intention.
So, with that as our ‘stellar’ history for understanding Bible prophecy, when it came to seeing the FIRST coming of the Messiah, how is it that men think they have the scriptures figured out for the (so-called) 2nd Coming?
Imagine if it happened tonight. Wouldn’t there be many believers asking “where was the anti-christ incarnate? – where was the 666? where was the 2nd temple? where was the trib, armageddon, the 10 nation confederacy?” Could it be that men who are so jaded as to reject the present truth of the Holy Spirit in the world and residing in believers with gifts of the Spirit, aren’t enlightened to interpret the scriptures that speak to the Lord’s return and judgment?
Something tells me we will be surprised and amazed at how it unfolds, and that it will not be like it has come to be anticipated these last 150 years.
You know, it might be useful to ask WHY the ancients missed the coming of Christ, when they were knowledgeable of all the prophecies that pointed toward HIS coming. And I think the answer is somewhat obvious: Israel was looking for a POLITICAL savior to deliver them from Roman oppression and not a SPIRITUAL savior to deliver them from the bondage of sin.
So, is current ‘end-times’ theology repeating the same error the ancients made by interpreting prophecy through carnal / political ambition?
The ONLY way we have a chance of understanding Biblical prophecy before it comes to pass, is to get right with the will and understanding of the Father. Interpretations of the flesh have no chance of coming to pass.
'Scrupe, your comment about "controlling the 2-3 lbs of flesh between our ears" is right on. Jesus gave a teaching about the "keys to the kingdom" in Matt. 16:19. What are those keys? Luke 11:52 identifies one of them, which also appears in 2 Peter 1:1-11, along with the rest that Peter lists. The point is we are supposed to be taking on Christ's personality traits, knowledge, brotherly kindness, self control, godliness, etc…these will lead to an abundant entrance into the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Christianity isn't about how much money you give or get, or how many buildings get erected, it is about reflecting Christ to this evil dying world.
Pastor Frank Damazio wrote on his facebook 2 days ago… “If you have any questions you would like to ask me, ask away and I will answer on my blog the ten best questions… starting tomorrow…”
*Will you be discussing current events in relation to current issues and how the relate to God’s word?”
*Japan today in light of bible prophecy!”
“What words of wisdom would give to believers living in Japan?”
*Who gets the gifts of the Holy Spirit and when should they be used.”
*Do pets go to heaven?”
“Loved what u said about everyone having a prophetic assignment. R u sensing a prophetic shift during this season? Any idea what this might look like?”
“Could it be that all that terrible stuff Jesus talked about happening in the gospels was to happen to THAT generation? Could this mean that it has already happened and people have a hopeless future for the planet because they think it’s just going to burn away? Could it be that people are forgetting the Daniel 7, Isiah 60, making disciples of all nations not in all nations, earth becoming more and more like heaven until the end instead of getting worse and worse and then all christians leave, and the fact that Jesus has all authority now and has given us all authority under heaven. it seems if that’s true then the devil has no authority to do anything and the ONLY reason he does have it is because CHRISTIANS have given him their authority simply by no knowing and using the authority they’ve been given over the earth? could it be that we are on the eve of construction? (huh?)
*We don’t come close to trying to obey Sabbath laws. Even the churches that think they teach this strong. This is a big subject. As a start see Lev. 26=5. We would have no debt, no hunger, no welfare??? Do we care about this??? Does it matter??? Is this law been thrown out by Jesus???
“I was asked the question yesterday if I take the Bible literally, and I said, “Yes!”. How would I respond to them if they ask why Christians obey some of the Bible but not all of it? I understand why we no longer practice Old Testament rituals etc… but what about the New Testament? For example, in 1 Timothy 2, it talks about how women should dress and act in the church. I know we do not follow that command. I do not feel convicted at all by not following this instruction. How do I explain to others that some commands we do follow and some we don’t and why???”
“Describe what it is like when you sense God’s presence. Have you ever been afraid in God’s presence?”
“1 John 4:12 says no man has seen God, but Exodus 33:11 says the Lord talked to Moses face to face. How do you reconcile these two biblical statements?”
“Has the Church forgotten the Holiness of God?”
“Where is the balance in church from being seeker friendly (huge movement with Willow Creek) and Spirit sensitive (Gifts of Spirit, Prophecy, etc…)? I think both movements have merit, but how to reconcile both systems?”
“Would you please read Tim Keller on Gospel Centrality and Church Planting?”
Okay, everyone… before Frank Damazio takes a stab at these on his blog, and takes on the task of explaining/answering them… wouldn’t you like an opportunity?
Thanks for the opportunity NSQ!
I’d like to respond to a few of the questions with questions of my own:
What the h—- is a prophetic shift? These people are so ‘heavenly’ minded they are of no earthly good – to quote a phrase.
This person is speaking classic dominionist talk inferring that the world should be getting better and better (especially) for the dominionist Christian elite who live by Proverbs 13:22 and are waiting for the wealth of hard-working sinners to be handed over to the righteous who don’t want to work for it.
Eve of construction – oh brother. Eyeroll. How nice it would be if it were so. But meanwhile the world seems to be groaning with earthquakes, wars and rumors of war. Hard work and perserverence still seems to be the best way to accumulate wealth. Idealists who are waiting to take dominion of something they haven’t earned (and aren’t entitled to) may find themselves destitute if they don’t get a grip of reality and work on their own projects.
Detox: Nailed it!
BTW, to create an eyeroll emoticon, type a colon, then the word “roll”, then another colon — no spaces.
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Thanks Anna – it’s funny bcz in my last comment I almost parenthetically said I need to ask Anna how to type eyeroll – I remembered seeing you include it in your comments!
Ok let’s see if it works!
Yay!
Emoticons in WordPress: http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies
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thanks Scrupe! this one is pretty funny
“prophetic shift”
One of my pet peeves is speaking advanced christianeze, buzz words and the like. “Release, emerging, spiritual authority, seasons of this and that, break-throughs, paradigm shifts, casting off this and breaking off that, possessing, restoring, impartation, vision-casting, and the next spiritual wave. Why don’t they just talk in plain language instead of dressing it all up to sound like a golden carrot you can never quite attain to. I guess people swallow it up easier if it has more mystique added.
Shoot, I just want to be more Christ-like. But even that can sound buzzy sometimes, and my little paradigm shift? I think I’m more 1 step forward, 2 steps back, still working on some ABC’s here. Hmm, If only I could find the right re-emergence maximizing strategic wave or prophetic/ apostolic shift I could possibly enter into a new season of release, generational break-through, and resurgence. Yeah, that’s the ticket, get me a new vision paradigm to impart gifts and calling, unleash the conquering warrior within! Sorry, I think I slipped into a little cynicism there.
Drop the “f” and it makes much more sense.
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My thought exactly Jay! Many of these words are triggers to me too so I understand the slip into cynicism. But maybe it’s truth speaking. Those trips into the stratosphere are just an escape from reality. Some people do it with drugs, these folks do it with the latest prophetic download. And you want to ask them “how’s that workin for ya?” For all the deepness of the latest spiritual wave, exactly what are they doing to effect the world around them?
We need help with our daily lives and like you said to be more Christ-like. Jesus was accessible to people and though he often spoke in parables he never seemed to go off into the deep end of some rant about strategic shifts in paradigm that no one could relate to or understand.
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Scrupe! I’m 8-0 you are so
!!
dang.
Detox
Are you sure what they’re doing is “prophetic”?
You know, the Lord has been known to send a “strong delusion” … 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
Consider the ‘delusion’ of the prosperity gospel and how it tickles itching ears and appeals to the flesh …
I don’t think they are prophetic at all – at least – speaking from the spirit of Truth (which is of Christ – who is the way TRUTH and life), rather I think they speak of the spirit of delusion, after the lusts of the flesh …
Among those so-called ‘prophetic paradigm shifts’ I’ve heard over the years, is the ‘transfer of wealth from the wicked to the righteous’ – where wealth is always money (mammon) … doesn’t it say that a person can’t love God and money / mammon both? That you love the one and hate the other? And that the love of money / mammon is the root of all kinds of evil?
No, I don’t think they’re prophetic at all … just deluded. Not just CBC, but the whole damnable movement.
You know – I was some tempted by the whole thing about a decade ago – it certainly seemed appealing to me. But the Father had mercy and led me to a place of isolation … I lamented that for a season – until one day he had me consider all that I had – a loving wife and kids, a home, a family, a few friends … most of all, He’d given me His Spirit and Truth … and then He said to me “What if this is as good as it gets”? And I understood that to mean that all the promises of the modern prophetic movement – the manifest sons, et al, was just a mirage.
Happiness lay in simply embracing the life he had led me into – loving my family, my community, etc.
About the prophetic and their shiny promises of a heavenly tomorrow – how does that balance out with the Lord’s words: “Why worry about tomorrow” – … that movement continually concerns itself with tomorrow, next week, yada, yada … and in so doing it effectively renders today as something to be despised. So much for “this is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it” …
Frankly, the only day we have, is this one. The prophetic movement steals that from us.
‘Scrupe: you’re profound today! That was excellent.
‘scrupe-dawg…
C’mon man, they’re not all delusional … some move very powerfully in the flesh and hold sway over stupid people who believe they are on “cutting edge”.
What in the heck is the cutting edge of Christianity?
Dig yer work bro.
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Anna is right Scrupe – profoundly stated.
I agree with you 100%. That is why the whole movement has made my blood boil which I can’t help ranting about.
I had to deal with alot of these types at the former church with my spouse being a leader of them – although at least his feet were touching ground and he seemed to have balance in the whole thing. Nevertheless he was caught up in it all. And of course these spiritually obsessed types felt sorry for him because I didn’t choose to participate in trying to access the outer limits (i.e. I didn’t go to those meetings mainly because alot of the ‘woo woo’ types gave me the creeps – and I had other things I could say I was doing). But now that he is on the other side of all that, I have come to see it’s an addiction he’s had to get over. There’s a certain high one gets from flying into the upper orbits with hungry people who yearn to hear from God clamoring to have their “mail” read.
There’s a reason we call ourselves Detox Church Group. We’ve had to get free of the whole culture of the prophetic and the delusional side of it you are talking about. It’s a wonderful escape from reality and I don’t blame people for trying to get away from what’s hard for them. Life is hard and it’s tiresome to deal with the reality of every day and it’s certainly more boring at times.
Having said that, the challenge has been not to throw prophecy out completely in the detox process. The pendulum does tend to swing to the other side. Since we each have the daily help of the Holy Spirit who was given to us when we received Jesus as our Savior, that would include his gifts, the prophetic being one of them. The prophetic movement seems to imply that only certain people with the gift of prophecy have access to prophecy when instead Paul encourages each of us to desire prophecy above all the gifts. But wouldn’t it be simply to meet the need in the moment we need it rather than to start an entire cult-like movement around the one gift? However, there would be no money in that!
I love what you conclude
And sometimes God may give you something prophetically to lead you in the way you should go with your family, community etc. But it really is a personal thing given often in the most natural way, rather than the latest strategic download from the heavenlies.
You are so right in saying that these alternate universes are designed to steal the every day life that the Lord has given to each one of us.
Detox, I think you waxed eloquent also, at least pretty much the way I look at it. I still like the prophetic and those scriptures really are in there promoting it, both O.T. and N.T. Like you alluded to, maybe it’s the exclusiveness we’re irked about and using spiritual gifts for someone’s own gain. If there weren’t the abuses, the real thing should bring glory to God. And there have been enough times I’ve seen the real thing to be convinced God’s still speaking and working.
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Right – and think about the gift of knowledge, the word of wisdom – how the Lord gives that gift and what it can do for the person on the receiving end of it. There are things that only God knows, but when he chooses to share it wouldn’t it be for someone’s benefit rather than to build a conference around.
When I think of how IHOP hosts ‘prophets’ that give out personal prophesies for a fee it makes me want to gag. Have these people forgotten Ezekiel 13 is in the Bible? One read through that chapter would give you a healthy fear of even stepping into that area with money attached to it.
I didn’t know they did that at IHOP. Guess I was hoping Bickle was still one of the good guys
Jayjacque, I’ve attended several conferences at Metro Christian Fellowship, formerly Kansas City Vineyard Fellowship – home of the “Kansas City Prophets”. It was at the first one I attended at MCF that I first heard Frank Damazio preach on “Ladder Churches” from one of his books. I did receive a profound healing there during one of the prayer times, but that isn’t really anything to do with the church, preachers or any of that. It was the Lord who healed me. That conference on the Prophetic, in 1999 as I recall, was smaller in attendance and held in their church building.
A couple years later they held another, in the KC Convention Center. It was at that time the Lord was really beginning to speak to me about the tithe issue and it was a time of great upheaval for me – rather – what the Lord was saying to me torpedoed the tithe doctrine I’d been taught for years. This particular festival was large, loud, very showy / commercial. And the Lord did several things there to shake me up about the nature of that sort of thing.
Following a nice time of worship, Bickle took the microphone and said that after such a time of worship, they always liked to “take an offering for the poor” … no sooner had he said that, than the Spirit said to me “the poor are among you” and brought to mind a friend who had just lost her house after years of caring for her father who was bed-bound following a stroke what left him a quadriplegic. His disability or aid was just enough to provide a home and food for them … and when he died suddenly, all aid was cut off immediately. So if you can imagine, there’s Bickle taking an offering from someone who is homeless, which he said would be given to the local food bank or some other such charity. Then I heard the Spirit say “it is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs” … so I understood that to mean he was literally taking bread OUT of my sister’s (in the Lord) mouth and giving it to the unsaved via the foodbanks, etc.
The Lord directed me to write him a letter about it, and I complied. Taking up my pen, I wrote “Last night, you took an offering FROM the poor” … I groaned at what I thought was my mistake (writing FROM instead of FOR) but the Lord said “That is NOT a mistake – last night’s offering WAS taken FROM the poor”.
So I wrote the letter and before the next conference session, I looked for an opportunity to put it on the lectern on stage – but – there were guards circling and denying access to the stage. Later, when Bickle came out to open up the session as he had done previously, he launched into a defense of himself, saying how he would NOT receive correction from anyone except for those people he knew and trusted.
And I’m just gape-mouthed at the whole thing. There was NO DOUBT the Lord had spoken to me and had directed me to write him – yet the pompous ass would not entertain a word from anyone he deemed to be of lesser stature / importance.
At that same conference, I observed a great deal of the behavior between visiting pastor/speakers that y’all have described at CBC, TCC, et al. Celebrity treatment, glad-handing, blowing prophetic smoke up one another’s butt. It was honestly sickening and I decided along with my friend who went with me, we’d never attend another one.
Another thing Bickle did, that turned my stomach, was his public shaming of Paul Cain, when after many years of riding the Paul Cain band-wagon to fame and wealth for himself, he determined that Paul was a homosexual and shamed him publicly, by letter on his web site. He and others of the “Kansas City Prophets” actively courted Paul Cain and brought him to their ‘Shiloh’ facility to live and be their core prophet. So where was their marvelous spiritual discernment concerning Paul BEFORE they brought him to Shiloh? The nature of the letter and shaming seemed to be all about face-saving and trying to keep Paul under control, when Paul had begun to express the desire to move out on his own again. Funny how the public shaming of Paul came about when he expressed the desire to move out on his own / away from KC Vineyard / MCF / Shiloh who benefited greatly by having Paul on their staff.
Mike Bickle is a jerk.
My series of tithe articles, if you are interested to read them, are hosted on my friend Clay Sikes web site at http://www.lighthouseprophecy.com/prophecy/ExposingTheTitheLie.html
Jack