mistress secretary. And the pastors in MFI were none too pleased. They asked him to step down. He declined. And now it appears that City Bible Church and the City Church are both starting their own separate "networks". I suspect they're making a move to disafilliate with MFI. I wish I cared.
I Can’t Quit You City Business Church
I had no intention of renewing my ownership of citbusinesschurch.org. I was going to let this website go gently into that good night. But they sent me one last reminder; I had a week to renew. A calm came over me, I blacked out, and when I came too, citybusinesschurch.org was back in my hands for another year.
Meh.
The problem is I have really lost all motivation to blog about City Bible Church. Mostly, because I feel like we won. A quick perusal of their website confirms things are not going well financially. The website looks like it was a high-school sophomore computer project. And they're not holding a lot of their usual conferences. That church is definitely in trouble. And I don't want to kick them when they're down.
I've thought about focusing more on the Anti-Christ of the Northwest, Judah Smith. But his most recent twitter account said, and I quote, "Shopping with @frankdamazio…I luv outfitting a man of God!" I can't compete with that. How can you make fun of someone, who with no shame, admits he loves dressing up other pastors like dolls. You can't.
Then there's always the fun little issue with MFI. Dick Iverson decided to marry his long-time
This is all to say, I renewed the domain. The eight people that still read this blog have another exciting year of no blog posts. At least from me.
Part of the problem is that the WordPress we're using is old. And the site doesn't really work all that well. Henri has been an amazing help. But I don't really want him to have to invest a lot of time and money into a blog that I only mildly care about. I am tempted to try to move the blog to another website. But we'll see. If any of you have any suggestions for what to do in the future. Let me know.
This is hilarious. What’s even more hilarious is the the thought of what Frank looked like AFTER Judah got done playing with him.
I imagine thats how the GU “hip hop” video came about.
Good times.
We can upgrade to the latest version of wordpress, but the problem is the current template design will stop working…
If anyone wants to (re)create a wordpress design for the blog… feel free to post here and I’m sure someone will contact you.
Once there is a design that works with latest version of WordPress… it’s no problem at all to upgrade and keep all existing posts/comments/content.
Then you can continue to be a thorn in the side of His Holy Frankness for just that much longer.
(Oh ya.. and if anyone at CBC is reading this… I’m still waiting to receive that lawsuit in the mail I was promised.)
Yeah, that is wonderfully hilarious.
Also, I don’t think its a big deal that Iverson married his secretary. He is elderly and was probably lonely and wanting companionship. He’s not going to go out and start dating, this woman was a familiar friend so it totally makes sense that they tied the knot. People of that age often get married solely for companionshp and if there is already a friendship there then so much the better. I think they need to give the old guy a break & just let him be. My Grandma died last November and it kills me to think of my Grandpa living alone now after 60+ years of marriage. Wow, I sound like I am his (Iversons) best friend or something. I don’t know the guy & I am neutral toward him – I just feel for the plight of the elderly I suppose
Henri, thanks for the offer and the explanation. I’ll look into finding someone who can recreate the wordpress design.
Just Thinking, I have no problem with Dick Iverson marrying his secretary. But for a guy who spent a lot of time preaching the value of “avoiding even the appearance of evil”, this looks kind of sketchy. If two years after his wife’s death he married a woman his own age. Someone, say he met at a Young at Heart meeting, then yeah, I’d be like “whatever.” But marrying his secretary of 40 years after his wife had been in the grave less than a year. Dick’s a shady shady man.
I suppose that is true. And I actually don’t know how old the secretary is – I guess I was assuming she was closer to his age.
Ha, ha, Cat you are too much. As I’ve always said this blog helped me “heal” in more ways then you know. It was 2004 when I first heard about this thing and over the next couple of years I read it religiously, so much so that I pissed more then a few of my friends and family off by the “secrets” I revealed and my willingness to openly talk about all the sh*t I went through at Bible Temple/City Bible. Sure it’s had it’s moments of stupidity and I can no way endorse everything that’s ever been said or done, but for the most part the CBC blog has been great fun for me (especially when I’m bored at work). I’ve been quite as of late because I’m so out of touch with what goes on at the bubbles these days. Although a quick internet search reveals a lot when you need to be in the know.
Anyway, glad to hear you decided to keep it going, I don’t think there will ever be a need for this thing to just stop existing, but I do believe that it has won. You know that they’ve been defeated when the “you all are just bitter idiots” or “don’t question God’s anointed” posts no longer occur. Hopefully the blog will morph into a “spiritual watchdog” of sorts and keep calling out those that need to be questioned.
By the way, this is ridiculous. Why Frank (50 something) would want to hang out and get fashion tips from Judah (30 something) someone who is obviously way behind fashion trends is not only strange, it’s creepy. And even weirder is why people actually care??
Cat, I think Corey Hart put it best:
Just a little more time is all we’re asking for…
…And when the night is cold and dark
You can see, you can see light
Cause no-one can take away your right
To fight and never surrender, to never surrender
Never surrender brother. Never surrender.
Please keep the website on, your site is one of the proof that I’m not alone thinking that most of the “Mega church” and so-called “Jesus debt-collectors” aka my pastors sort of corrupt.
I thought I must be so sinful thinking my ex-pastor is an ass… well a year ago I found your website and well just say it’s a blessing for me, liberating to be exact that I’m not the only one. Not saying that ur pastor’s an ass, just the thought that it’s ok to questioning the church authority and getting them responsible of it. I did, my ex pastor stepped down a few months ago, now being investigated of fraud. Nice guy, just forgot that he’s serving God not the goods…
First i was afraid, i was petrified…
You might say you dont care, but we do. BTW thanks!
Thanks, Seth. I’m glad you found site this valuable.
Seth, well done. I think that after 5 years City Business Church may now have its theme song:
Cat –
Glad you are hanging in for another year – there’s still lots to talk about.
As long as Judah sets himself up with these kinds of scenarios, how can we resist commenting?
Then there are more national scenarios to consider like The Family which has a house on C Street, in fact next door to the NPC which belongs to Wendells cousin, Ken.
This is a great forum. I am quite surprised how many people check in on this site, and how much quality discussion there is. One must think that only a fraction of those who have had a bad experience, or who have issues in general with these churches, are posting here. This raises the question: how many more people actually feel this way? My answer would be: probably many.
Therefore, I consider it to be important that this site exists. If this many people have been negatively impacted, then an outlet or area for people to find common ground is essential. I am glad that you guys are still here, and I hope that this site will be around for a long time to come. While these churches may not be experiencing a financial tidal wave right now, it will only be a matter of time until the money begins to flow in again (when the economy picks up), and these churches will be up and firing on all cylinders.
I am sure that many of these pastors know that this site exists. In fact, I remember that Judah’s cousin (Tracy, I believe) posted on here. Therefore, at worst this site could be a thorn in the side of some of these “Men and women of God”, and at best this site could be a reminder and a warning that their actions aren’t going unnoticed. It would be amazing if this site could someday occupy a permanent place under Judah’s Wikipedia page on Google. It would be quite democratic if you ask me.
You all are just bitter idiots.
Don’t question God’s anointed.
(Just to ease your mind, reformer
)
[Comment ID #37275 Will Be Quoted Here]
AMEN!
Joebib, if you have a disagreement with Reformer, you need to talk to him in private and not slander him on a blog.
(It’s good to hear your voice again!)
annie, I did try calling him, but he wasn’t in.
Something about being out shopping with a rapping SP and the new Messiah.
By the way, anna, still doing the school marm?
…You don’t think this here is the results of the shopping trip, do you?
Naw, my students are now in the hands of Big Brother.
No way…more like this Anna. After all he is the fashion king.
Hey Cat, you said:
Wow. That’s quite a statement for you to make. Times certainly have changed.
Is this your assumption that all people living under the same roof automatically copulate with each other?
Or maybe you have intimate knowledge regarding this.
-joe
Here’s what I heard through email from a reliable source.
This is what I have as the facts: The wedding is set for January 2nd. He is marrying Roxy his personal assistant of 33 years. She is approx 30 years younger than Iverson and has never been married. She practically lived with the Iversons caring for Eddie in her final years. The family confronted Dick Iverson a few years ago when Eddie was still alive and thought there was an improper relationship between Iverson and Roxy. Iverson told them there was not anything between him and Roxy and told them to but out. Now that Dick and Roxy have decided to get married the family is furious and they feel like there may have been something improper happening, maybe not physical but an emotional attachment or soul tie. The family has asked Dick not to marry her, they have asked MFI leadership to get involved and provide counsel and help in the situation. Dick has told MFI leadership that nothing improper has ever happened and he is not guilty of any kind of “adultery” emotional or otherwise. They have asked him to delay and take some time to consider what he is doing and he has refused. Dick has threatened to resign from MFI if they try to interfere. He may have already resigned.
You tell me. Sounds like she played the role of a mistress to me, but of course, I have no proof. Hence the reason, I crossed the word out.
Look cat, crossout or not, the damage is still done. Which you were very well aware of when you did it.
Regardless of what I’m sure will be your claim to the contrary, I doubt any of your extended-Morton-family would like stuff like this being said/implied about them, or ones they love, wives included.
If this is not true, what then? How do you undue the damage? This hurts not only the person in question, but others as well, including the children & grandchildren.
If it is true, would you want your sins paraded on a blog with over 2 million hits? Matthew 7:12.
If you wanna block me from the blog, oh well, but I’m still saying that in my view the remark was out of line.
-joe
Look cat, crossout or not, the damage is still done. Which you were very well aware of when you did it.
I’m not apologizing for it. I think it’s a funny way of saying something, without really saying it.
Regardless of what I’m sure will be your claim to the contrary, I doubt any of your extended-Morton-family would like stuff like this being said/implied about them, or ones they love, wives included.
It’s almost as though you just found this blog two days ago.
If this is not true, what then? How do you undue the damage? This hurts not only the person in question, but others as well, including the children & grandchildren.
How about a gift basket. We just got one of those in our office the other day, and I just love the muffins.
If it is true, would you want your sins paraded on a blog with over 2 million hits? Matthew 7:12.
You completely baffle me.
If you wanna block me from the blog, oh well, but I’m still saying that in my view the remark was out of line.
Look man, just try to lay off on the “troll” comments, alright? If you want to add to the discussion, great. But if you just want to come on here and try to shame me into changing my opinion. Please, don’t waste your time or mine.
It wasn’t trolling, cat. I found your remarks offensive, and I wanted to appeal to your sense of decency and conscience, and try to get you to think about the hurtful stuff often said around here; how that kind of thing might hurt your loved ones were it said about them.
But as usual, you deflect attempts at seriousness with smart-aleck humor to save face before the C-BUS-C faithful.
If we applied the above fact pattern to a politician, a corporate executive or a professional athlete. Everyone would say, yes, that individual had a mistress on the side.
But because it’s a “Man of God” and a “Pastor”, all of a sudden we can’t draw the same conclusions? I don’t buy it.
You’re a “concern troll” Joe: “A concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with “concerns”. The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you’re an ally.”
I’m tired of it. If you don’t like what is said on this blog, you are free to go somewhere else.
Well, maybe we shouldn’t be saying stuff about them either.
But Cat, the difference is, AFAIK, none of us here on C-BUS-C know those famous people you reference, neither personally nor intimately, nor do they probably read this blog, nor are there people/friends/families still involved with them, as is the case with Bible Temple/City Bible/Dick Iverson and many C-BUS-Cers.
So remarks that are made in this realm can and do hurt those whose lives we are intimately involved with. Kids and grandchildren.
But you know what? You’re right, I can see nothing I say is gonna make you change; arguing like this is a waste of time. Forget I mentioned it.
Look, I get it. In the same way that I’m sure Elin Woods mom wishes everyone would stop talking about her daughter and son-in-law, you are friends with the Iversons, and you don’t want me talking negatively about Dick and his special lady-friend.
I get it.
I just think it’s clear at this point that I’m not going to stop. And I don’t want to rehash the same arguments I’ve been having on this blog for the past five years. There are times on this blog where I felt I’ve crossed the line. This is not one of them.
Amen to that! There is no question we cannot ask. There is no leader off limits to public scrutiny which goes with the territory. If Christians had been free to ask questions early on, the church at large wouldn’t be in such a mess and we wouldn’t be blogging about the dysfunctions of these leaders and their churches.
[Comment ID #37305 Will Be Quoted Here]
So true! People who live their lives in front of the public should not cry foul when questioned by the public. Can’t have it both ways…plain and simple.
Whenever someone raises a concern about questioning “God’s anointed” I always point them to 2 Samuel 12. There, Nathan rebuked David for his obvious and sinful actions. Now David, being the very powerful king could have made it so that Nathan was never heard of again, however he instead fell to his knees and said “I have sinned against the Lord.” Now I’m not saying the Iverson situation is similar, however I am saying that there is nothing wrong with questioning someone’s ethics, especially when that someone has been a pastor for 30 to 40 years. After all it is the Bible that says we should avoid even the appearance of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22).
The bottom line here is that this blog is a form of expression, a 1st Amendment right guaranteed by the Constitution. No one is forced to read it, comment on it, or even acknowledge its existence. If you don’t like what is being said, then stop participating.
I’m totally going to regret getting into a debate with the most-boring-person-alive, Jeremiah Johnson.
But quick question: When Jesus went into the Temple and overturned the tables, was he still following the “Greatest Commandment” to love one another?
I’m pretty sure if Jeremiah Johnson met Jesus on the street he would lecture Jesus on the importance of Grace.
If Jeremiah Johnson was a book in the Bible it would be between Leviticus and Numbers, and even more difficult to read.
When Jeremiah Johnson gets to the Pearly Gates, Saint Peter is gonna be like, “Just let him in. If he starts talking, people are going to confuse this place with Hell.”
(I’ll be here all night. Thank you very much!)
Wow, guys it’s getting hot in here, well anyway what i did to my (ex) pastor was :
Step 1. Questioning him privately first, bluntly in his face (we had lunch, my mom’s one of the church’s biggest donor, he loved us.. a lot), he denied my accusation and play the angry card, accusing me i was a bitter young guy in need for a big-time repent. Then apparently he told everyone about the evil me, hence the asst. pastor calling me -not by name- (quote) “the thorn” in a Sunday service sermon in front of 5000 people, sent by the devil spreading rumors to shake and hurt the “God-Anointed man”.
Well something just ain’t right in the equation about the first class “mission” family trip to Maldives, Hawaii, Baha etc, new SLK & S-Series, ,”the Canaan” (20k sqf mansion, with a private bowling alley thank you) and of course the old time favorite & repeated tithing sermons…
I’m OK with people getting rich, but not with my money (well to be fair, my mom’s mostly) in it and there’re people in the church losing their job, fighting bankruptcy and with illness, yet being told to tithe tithe tithe!
And yet here’s another 45k$ Patek Philippe for the “god anointed man” doing nothing really with no real job but being fat and speaking about how everyone need to give him more $$$.
Step 2. Feed up. I had enough. So I talked with people, convince my mom to take action, looking for affirmation (one of the affirmation was form this lovely site.. again THANK YOU!), yes there’re a lot of people told me to mind my own business, that I’m just a young rascal (was 25 back then) and somehow kept hearing that it is a sin to question “god’s anointing”, well I know a tiger when i see one.
Step 3. I collected all my guts left in me (after been brutally eaten by the church pack) and we (me and some of the elders, my mom included) reported him to the financial committee. Filed a lawsuit (thanks to my mom’s company legal team) and there you go, now he’s spent $$$ paying for the legal fees, bye2 mansion, and sorry Mrs. pastor no more visit to the plastic surgeon…
Am I evil or what?
Well tell that to the “man of god” who stop funding the elderly home, shutting it literally, denied financial assistance plea from a mother with breast cancer (told her to pray harder, tithe more and god will send miracle depending on how much she will put a seed of faith in here tithing, saying it’s by grace she’ll be healed, she died a few month after unhealed) and bought a new 150k church sound system instead (which cost only 100k, he tithed 50k for himself apparently), not that the one we had broken, it just the Hillsong singers coming and we need to bling up. And oh yes… he gave the infamously evil CA’s props8 tons of $$$ (move away mormons, he gave approx. 215k of the church money) denying people the rights to love and be equal… and we’re not even in USA! (the devil’s own friend, rev. jerry falwell & soon-to-go rev. pat robertson will love this guy company in hell surely).
After the legal huricane, new pastor got in, so this one better keep his hand off my money and use it for the right cause.
Yes you heard me “my money”, I don’t be believe in tithing as a return of God’s money thing, no way, in the The Parable of the Talents, it’s said that the master will taken us into account of the money (skill, etc) entrusted in us… so no way I’m gonna deposit mine in some crooks (who happened ran a money-hunger church) and do nothing about it. Never my intention to dictate pastor what to do, i just expect them to do the right thing as church supposed to do: To act love.
Money (or other things) is not the source of all evil, it’s the willingly evil human hearts, any human hearts are vulnerable including the so-called “anointed one”.
My point is maybe everyone should man up and talk to these pastors in the face, and enjoy the wild ride
What also rankles about this situation is that Iverson has spent his
ministrycareer as an authoritarian with a Father Knows Best attitude, setting himself up as an expert christian, an example to be followed. Then suddenly people in his world are supposed to step aside as if his example doesn’t matter anymore? I suppose it wouldn’t be so unsettling if he hadnt been an authoritarian leader.What is it about these types that create a set of (very difficult) standards they expect their followers to adhere to, then suddenly one day the rules no longer apply. The Mormons do sudden shifts like this by way of revelation.
From a practical angle of this thing though, some older men don’t do well without a woman in the picture and remarry rather quickly after losing a spouse. Who better than someone who already knows you, has already been like a servant to you and your wife? It wouldnt be out of the question for both of them to assume the role of companions now. However, it would probably be easier for the family to accept if he hadn’t created such a world of weirdness in the first place. The kids are weird. But why wouldn’t they be growing up in a cult-like world like MFI? Why are they asking their dad not to marry Roxy? Is she a she-devil or something?
Maybe, like so many things in MFI wacworld settings, it’s a matter of control.
[Comment ID #37314 Will Be Quoted Here]
Johnson, you totally missed the point dude. It’s like a baseball that was flying right at your head, and you didn’t even duck…you just let it hit you and then cast all the blame the thrower.
My point is not in what Nathan did, in love or not. It’s in how DAVID responded. He was the king, the master, the one with all the control. He had every right to rebuke Nathan and make him disappear forever, but did he? No, he apologized. Do you think this blog would have any steam if people like Pastor Frank actually apologized, wrote a letter or made some kind of statement regarding the people they’ve hurt over the years? Any kind of remorse shown to the hundreds if not thousands of people that have been stepped on would go a long way. So that’s the real point, when a leader is questioned how do they respond. If it’s with defiant, fist pounding pride and a big F you, then there’s something to be said for their true leadership qualities, correct?
As far as the first Amendment, I’m really not even clear on what your point is, however I understand that is probably way, way over your head and not something worth brining up in this forum. So I apologize for trying to be too philosophical. Just remember, be careful of accusing someone of judging when you use the same method of judgment. That’s thin ice you are walking on. I ain’t made at you though, it’s a double edged sword around here right? Just know that grace does not mean sitting back and letting people walk all over you. If you think that you best read the Bible a little more, cause there are dozens of examples (as Cat pointed out) regarding Jesus and his followers showing very little grace to those who are in the wrong.
[Comment ID #37317 Will Be Quoted Here]
Yeah it’s tough dude, real tough. But I try to accept people for who they are, when I know that’s just truly who they are.
Went Gangsta
Function: verb; adjective
Born: June 14, 2004
Died: December 8, 2008
I actually do not see anything wrong with him marrying his secretary. Like another poster stated already he is up their in age and probably began to feel very lonely after his wifes death.
I could imagine at his age that you would get quite lonely. And I would not be suprised if he found his secretary attractive for quite some time.
He probably wanted to fill the void with something substantial to take the place of his missing spouse. Techincally he did nothing wrong in taking a new wife. He is no longer bound to her. I would say you should cut the guy some slack. Unless there is evidence that he did something that was truly sinful.
For all your pomp and posturing, cat, you’re actually quite gutless, aren’t you?
For all your pomp and posturing, cat, you’re actually quite gutless, aren’t you?
Yes, yes I am. Now please, move along.
Let’s not assassinate Cat’s character for alluding to what most were thinking/whispering on hearing about the Iverson wedding. It’s hard not to entertain the possibility of improper conduct under these circumstances, so let’s drop the righteous indignation.
I remember many many circumstances in the Iverson era where a BT/CBC member was given a reprimand or punishment based on circumstantial evidence similar to this case, so those that live by the sword and all that. I’m not making a value judgment one way or another because it’s between Dick, Roxy, and God, but being on the receiving end of his own legalistic approach to Christian living is called reaping what you sow.
Indeed. There is no way that if one of their lowly flock was involved in a situation that gave off similar impressions, that they wouldn’t hear about it from their higher ups. Leverage works both ways, and if you are going to attempt to frown down upon particular behavior, then expect the same in return.
If you are “my pastor”, then I believe I can hold you to a higher standard that you hold me. Whoa, blasphemy!?!? No, it is that when one submits to another and allows them a level of authority in ones’ life, then that granting of authority comes at the cost of being scrutinized more closely when events, like this case in question, occur.
That is the trade that has been established. You have some “power” that I have given you, and with that comes the fact that you can hold me accountable for certain things. You, as an authority figure, should be held accountable for the same things that you hold me accountable for, as well as a little extra due to the position granted to by us.
One example:
I build you a bridge on a vast section of property that you own. I could just be some regular guy who you heard was good with tools and wood. I build you your little bridge crossing a stream, but then one day it collapses and you get hurt. Now, legally this is a gray area because I could just be some guy that you asked to do you a favor, and I ended up sucking at building bridges.
On the other hand, if you hired a licensed engineer to do the same task, and it failed, they could be sued for all they are worth and lose their license, hence ruining their career. Why? Because they violated a public trust that was granted to them by the people. You sign a piece of paper that gives you all the “rights thereof” to perform your trade. With these rights came a binding agreement between you and the public you serve.
Now, pastors don’t have to licensed like this, but we do “give them license” to speak to us regarding many personal issues. By my example, the guy who was not an engineer was held to a lesser standard by the fact that they don’t possess the same public trust and rights granted them as an engineer does.
Same applies to pastors–we give it (trust) and we can take it away. How do we decide whether to do either of these? By scrutinizing whether it is warranted or not. I should be able to “inspect their work” in order to feel like my trust in them is justified. If it isn’t, then I can revoke their “license” and go elsewhere.
Exactly!
It’s just another example of how our leaders don’t really like being held to the same standard to which they hold everyone else. Rules are for little people.
But you’re right. It’s between Dick and Roxie. And none of my business. I just hope that Dick is willing to extend this same tolerance and courtesy next time someone in his flock engages in suspicious behavior.
Our problem down here is the John Bevere rod we were hit with from the unforgettable series titled “UNDERCOVER” Ah yes, the best invention since the cattle prod for getting your livestock to get in line. If you were so fortunate to not be forced to take it as a leader in training I’ll break it down in a nutshell– the Pastor Leader has all control over you —he is god to you in this church. You are not to question him or his great authority, or decisions. In the MFI world the decisions can be life changing –who you can date, who you should marry, when you should break up. We saw many heartbreaking situations and people who’s lives were shattered from pastoral value judgments and decisions made by leadership that scarred people’s lives and hearts.
Pastor K’s favorite one was- you need to wait 6 months – to get engaged, to marry, to divorce, to move whatever –the old 6 month rule! Of course if you decide to buy a house on C Street for a psuedo ministry to Congress people than hey that rule that does not apply. And if you decide to finance it in some shady dealings with those who were later indicted –who cares. The six month rule never even entered the picture on those decisions–remember Ken?
We had to buck up and be quiet and follow John Bevere’s teachings that if and that was a mighty big ‘IF’ you could ever be off, or wrong or treat us badly that it was ok because the Lord would show you soon and do something on our behalf to make it up to us. Great scheme –the leaders were let off the hook while we passively drank the kool-aid!
You were right about one thing the Lord did do something on my behalf
–He told me to leave!
Back to Iverson’s story; of course we all recognize the loneliness etc. and the need to get married but as Detox stated they made up the rules to this game. They created the school of thought to seek pastoral council and even when it breaks your heart and you don’t agree, don’t feel its right , just be submissive.
Or wait 6 months till you do – rule!
Yes I’d say it can work two ways -submission that is. Doesn’t feel good does it?
Didn’t John Bevere once work for Benny Hinn? Maybe that was where he researched his don’t ask, don’t tell policy, or what was it called? Oh yea
under the covers! Just asking….
I wonder if Bevere will ever know the extent of the damage that was caused by that great twist of scriptures used to stop every submissive Christian from asking questions.
It was a dream come true for all domineering leaders like the ones turned out in MFI. Where is their submission to authority right now I wonder?
Who knows more details on the real split going on –we’ve anticipated it down here for years.
non celebrity Christian, you’ve just sparked my memory…
Speaking of domineering leaders… I remember back at The City Church when they were quite fairly heavy-handed with some of these “rules/advice”… scared off more than a few people.
One example being this one person (Robin if you are out there!) who was involved with the worship team. He was attending TCC and met a girl who’s family was involved in (pastoring) an Assemblies of God church. Time went by and they became engaged. Being that he had been involved at TCC for a while, and her father was a pastor at the other church, they would kind of split their time between the two churches, as neither one wanted to sever their relationships at either church. As he slowly began to gravitate to her church, they basically leveraged his position on the worship team against him (pretty freaking silly… the worship team as leverage), and when that didn’t work, they flat out told him that he should maybe “find someone at The City Church” to marry.
Needless to say he told them where to go and never returned. Just one example, of many (I am sure) instances where these churches’ “loving and caring advice” is nothing more than self-interested manipulation.
Fun times!
Thanks for keeping the blog going Cat. I’ve personally gotten a lot out of it. My wife started going to CBC over a year and a half ago. I tried going too, but got sick to my stomach from the pride and arrogance displayed. In fact, I walked out of one meeting it was so stifling and never went back to a service since.
Although I haven’t been ‘immersed’ in the culture as a lot of you, most everything I’ve read rings so true. I go to a different church and really appreciate the humbleness of the leadership, the simplicity of it. I don’t have to HAVE my ears tickled or HAVE an emotional experience to grow in my faith.
My wife was into the Rick Joyner’s and the Pat King’s, going to conferences and reading their books. This hasn’t been as strong recently and yet I see how this mindset of the Apostles and Prophets and their supposed ‘authority’ permeates CBC, even if not mentioned as such.
I did see one person on the blog ask about the specific of what CBC believes (beyond their pat answers) to their real doctrine. No one had a clear answer. Curious I did see MFI mentioned a few times and decided to look that up. What kind of shocked me is that the creation of the church was heavily influenced by the Latter Rain/Apostles and Prophets Movements (which makes a LOT of sense as to why CBC operates like it does – from tithing to the non questioning of leadership).
I can share what I’ve learned in some basic research. When I queried MFI it lead me right to a Wikipedia entry, mentioning MFI about 3/4 of the way down saying, “Ministers Fellowship International is the most prominent direct descendant of the Latter Rain movement…”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Rain_Movement
I had heard the term mentioned by my wife, but didn’t realize it was an actual movement. As I looked into it more I soon saw how much of the movement is based in false doctrine. I’m normally not one to be critical of other believers in their ‘bents’ and ‘traditions’, but as I kept reading I was amazed at what I found (multiple sources).
There’s a lot of great articles and resources. One that was quite helpful to me was was (it’s long and very detailed, but well worth the read)…
http://www.intotruth.org/res/lastdl1.html
Again, I don’t know how much CBC stands behind these doctrines anymore, but for it to have it’s roots in them makes CBC quite suspect, along with PBC. When I queried a pastor that I’ve known a long time about it (not at CBC) he sort of downplayed it and said that he knows people in leadership at CBC, and generally they’re ‘good’ people. So, again… willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but even ‘good’ people can be deceived.
In the past I took the approach that my wife and I believe differently on spiritual matters, only to have her respond, “No, I’m following THE truth.” Hmmm… those that lean toward CBC as being cult like, I’d have to agree, but too, I think she found a church that would reinforce what she already believed, so it’s not entirely their fault.
This post got way too long, but hopefully it will help someone as they are searching for answers about CBC as I was. Thanks again Cat for having this site and allowing us to air our experiences and findings. Anyone want to add anything?
Good insights, NonItch. It is true that the roots of CBC are classic Latter Rain, and therefore the fruits show it. However Frank has added his own hybrid prosperity / seeker bent to the mix. And so the result has been a culture that views itself as “the chosen ones”, reinforced by affirmation-type encouragement.
Thankfully they have not embraced the wack-a-doodle ways of Joyner and King. But not because their basic doctrine is different, but because it doesn’t fit the image they are trying to build. Make sense?
[Comment ID #37784 Will Be Quoted Here]
Anna – love your word wack-a-doodle! It sums up so much!
Isn’t it interesting how elitists like Frank, Wendell and Ken (to mention the ones we are most familiar with) feel Joyner and King don’t reflect their doctrine but have essentially the same weird voodoo coming from their lips, just another version is all. That’s the exasperating part, they would say they aren’t a certain way but their actions eventually led us to believe otherwise.
NonItchingEars said:
THANKS for sharing your findings NonItch! It’s amazing what can be found if we just explore! My researching friend has often reminded me that there’s a treasure trove out there for those who want to take the time to discover it!
Interesting how the wiki entry says MFI is THE MOST PROMINENT direct descendant of the Latter Rain Movement! All the while Frank, Wendell and Ken would never admit that, so you are correct in assuming that they try to distance themselves from their roots (Dick Iverson being an integral part of that whole scene):
It’s also interesting how the general Christian public seems totally unaware of the Latter Rain doctrine, what it REALLY is and that Dominionism is a major tenet . If they only knew that Dominionists (which includes those in the Apostolic Movement like Joyner and Wagner etc) truly believe that they are going to rule and reign over the rest of us here on earth using our money to fund their empires. If they understood that, maybe they’d realize why we beg to differ. But if you try to warn anyone you get an anemic response like you received from the non CBC pastor you queried.
It must be a tough balance there with your wife so into the Latter Rain world but it sounds like you both follow your own spirituality so kudos for that. Amazing how she said she is following ‘THE truth’ which pretty much sums up what most people in Christianity think they are doing (including all of us of course!) When it comes down to it, after being in a Latter Rain church that never said they were latter rain, and all the dysfunction that came with it, we WEREN’T IN TRUTH, we were being deceived! We were in a church that tauted they were the real truth and seemed to look down on churches far more fruitful than they were/are. But now we know the truth about their deception and, more than ever, we are on a journey of truth trying our best to keep deception at bay. The difference is, now we aren’t so quick to say we are following the real truth. It’s more like, we hope that we are in more truth than we were before and God please protect us with a soundness of mind and pureness of heart.
Love that wack-a-doodle term too. I picked it up from a good friend!
While we’re discussing THE truth (and I hope our friend NonItching is still with us), it is good to remember that the idea was put into writing in a very seminal book written by Iverson called “Present Day Truths.” For those that don’t remember, this is the main idea: The early church was endowed with glory and knowledge gifted at Pentecost and through the apostolic days. But it slowly declined, and was mostly lost during the Dark Ages.
Then the Holy Spirit began to reveal the lost truths back to the church beginning with Martin Luther’s “The just shall live by faith!” Then baptism was restored, holiness, baptism of the HS, etc. With each truth restoration, a church split is formed between those who have the restored revelation and the old guard. If you are familiar with Joyner, this will recall his “grey coats” idea.
Now maybe this is true to some extent, but look at the result of the idea. The forerunners of these restored truths, the recipients of the revelations, begin to form an attitude — about themselves, about other Christians, about their own powers, knowledge, relationship with God, etc. They are elite! This whole idea fosters pride like no other. I know! I am / was guilty, guilty.
Not to go on and on, but I hope this gives those interested an idea of the roots of MFI and a glimpse into why they are as they are. BTW, there are those now who consider MFI “old guard” and have moved on themselves. Funny, huh!
Thanks Anna. Thanks DeTox – been reading your blog as well. Fascinating stuff and I can definitely identify with so much of what everyone says. I wouldn’t say that my wife and I are calmly and peacefully following our own spirituality though. I tried to take that approach and that’s when I was told, “No, I’m following the TRUTH.†Yup, it’s her way (aka God) or the highway… well, not really but you get the point. Definitely a different Gospel.
To her I’m the one away from God (she is following him perfectly of course). I’m the one that is wandering, and have received physical threats of God’s judgement on me if I don’t return soon. Mind you, she believes these are not her word’s but God’s. And she believes it so much that she brought our life insurance guy in a year ago and doubled my policy to 1MM. Consequently I changed the beneficiaries of the policy to only my 4 children. I told her I did this and all she said was, I can understand your decision.
I need to add there is a positive in her thinking that if I don’t get killed in what God needs to take me through, because of my ‘pride and arrogance’ toward him, then there is victory and I become the man God told her she’d always have. Ummm… yeah, okay, right. That is exactly what I walked away from. But of course this hope is why she trudges through my ‘insolence’. What she doesn’t seem to get is that it is the very reason that I am so guarded toward her, my walls up and just feeling done. I might add that God and I are doing okay as I slowly rebuild my relationship with Him, as described by many recovering people on this site. He’s so good.
Since my post I’ve read a lot more, and I also see a lot of intermixing of the “Word of Faith†movement in her thinking, and I assume CBC has taken on as a hybrid as well. Man, there’s a LOT of similarities there too, especially the whole ‘judgement’ thing. I started to write out a lot more of my story, but perhaps in a later post for there are even weirder occurrences.
I’ve talked about divorce with her, because of the lost hope in the marriage and feeling completely done. Got quite the response there. I’ve studied it. On one hand there is plenty of passages on the subject about not divorcing, and yet there are others about walking away from false teachers for obvious reasons. Of course for the latter you can just leave the toxic church you’re in and the leadership there. Not so easy with a toxic marriage.
It is permissible in Christian circles to divorce over physical abuse. Does spiritual abuse apply as well? I can say that the most peaceful times and growth for me in the last year and a half is when I’ve had time to myself, or time spent with the kids. The tension grows in the chest again when she’s around because of the judgement and self-righteousness, feeling as if everything I say and don’t say, do and don’t do, is being run through that lens.
If not by the grace of God I don’t see how I’ve survived this long. But of course marriage should be a lot more than just survival and I fight with that desire a lot, wanting more but not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. And don’t get me started on the role of spiritual leadership in the home and who God designed that job for. I have felt robbed for sure, because with the ‘God’ card in hand there is no dialogue or real discussion.
I’m not blaming CBC by any means. All of this was in her heart and grew from well over a decade of her ‘spiritual’ pursuits. It’s just that the nature of CBC, which I’m having ‘ah-ha’ moments about, encourages it all the more. Having been to CBC a few times I could name specific instances of and things that keyed me off that this was not a healthy place. Yes, there might be good people that attend, but I also remember standing there looking around and thinking, Lord, people are buying this stuff?
The people that she’s come to spend time with at CBC don’t really know her full story, and I can see in their looks, them passing judgement without getting to know me. Several claim to be Prophetesses (like my life), so of course they don’t need to get to know me to make a decision. In fact I’m told that many of her friends at CBC have commended her for staying with me and what great faith and patience she has for such a wayward husband.
I’ve never been mad at God or blamed Him. At the same time, when I realize the falseness of it and how far I’d fallen in the pit myself, when I came out, I sort of circled the wagons around the basics of the faith that I knew to be true, God’s love for me and the completeness of the the Cross and the blood of Jesus in my life. Honestly, it’s a good place to be.
I’ve counseled with quite a few people, people I thought that would give me insight, and for the most part they just shrug their shoulders, tow the line in hopes she’ll change (praying for her and myself – I love people’s prayers, but would like some insight too). Others have been very concerned for me and my physical well being (with the kind of divine judgement ‘threats’ that have been made). I feel at least now, God answering my prayers for increased wisdom and understanding (and protection). This and other sites have been helpful and an answer to those prayers. Thank you all again.
I do realize that one or two people reading this in the shadows might know her and a bit of our story. I guess I’m willing to take that risk and deal with the fallout. Oh, yeah, and thanks DeTox for the book list. That “Toxic Faith†seems to be a good one. Should receive it tomorrow. I’m just glad I can finally put a name to what I’ve experienced and that I’m not alone. Hope to be much better equipped in the coming weeks on how to proceed, which will include some structured counseling for sure.
Oh, NonItching… I’m so sorry. Let me tell you a tiny bit of my story in hopes of encouraging you. I was in your wife’s shoes. I was so spiritual, so prophetic, had great knowledge — and my husband was just so not with it. Never mind that he is loving, patient, kind, a good father, a faithful provider, and he even supported me on my spiritual journey.
One day I was praying for him, you know, that God would make him the man he was supposed to be and all that. And I heard these exact words in my head, clear as if someone were talking to me: “You despise your husband.” The tone was neutral — a statement of fact. My immediate response was “I do not!!” But then I realized that the Holy Spirit had cut through all the spiritual rhetoric and laid bare my heart.
It is so amazing that with four simple words, the Holy Spirit can change a mindset, a direction, a whole paradigm. But then His words are living and powerful. He works with each person separately, according to their needs and personality. I will hope that you will be able to work on your relationship with Him and trust that He will speak to your wife as He sees best.
grace
I am grateful to have found this site. I too am a survivor of BT and PBC and a couple other crazy church experiences. It has taken me many years to try and resolve some of the issues i came out of. It is so true Anna, your words about the Holy Spirit. The Spirit can lead you out of so much if you can just let your heart hear him.
I have had difficulty finding anyone, even those who were there and came out, who can have an open conversation about what happened and what continues to happen in these churches. I still struggle as my family members are involved in another similar church. I don’t think most people would believe or understand my story. The scenarios described in this blog bring up so many memories of the confusion and turmoil that went on within me. Thankfully I think I am finding my way out with the Lord’s help and continue to grow at a Church I recently found. I love this quote although I don’t know who said it. “Salvation needs to be conveyed in terms of enhancing your humanity rather than rescuing you from it”
“Another Survivor”… we’re glad you found us here. I am a recent blogger. PBC, BT, CBC… all of that. But, I’ve slowly been edging away. Some may say it’s bitterness, but I don’t feel bitter. I’ve prayed about my situation. I’ve contacted the pastors with my concerns (to no avail & receiving no reply). I’m ready to leave, but am finding it difficult to find a solid church I can feel safe AND challenged… am I growing as a Christian? I wish there were a place we could all meet, so we could put faces with the hurting people behind the typed words. Hearts, emotions, memories, pain, hurts, healing… it’s all there. There are definitely things on here I don’t agree with, positions I prefer not to delve into, and scenarios I don’t have an interest in (how many prepositions WAS THAT?)
But, that’s the beauty of a blog. I really appreciate what the creators have done here. I may not be as anonymous as I think I am, but now I don’t really care. I can defend my decision face-to-face without malice or judgment. I have loved ones who continue to attend “said” church (and I’ll attend at times, when family requests it), but that’s okay. This is my decision – made through prayer and, believe it or not, counsel. My family is supportive of my decision. My pastors, well, not so much… because, once they knew my reasons for leaving, they thought I was 100% wrong. But, you know, that’s okay. I have other pastorly leaders in my life who are 100% supportive of the change going on in my life. It’s really given me time to pause, pray, delve into the Word (without worrying about what ministry I’ll help with… and where they’ll take advantage of my time, money, skills, and heart to serve). All of that is shriveled now, but God will heal. I pray He heals those painful spots in your life too. Blessings! – NSQ
NonItching Ears said:
Hi NonItch – it’s been awhile since I’ve been back to the blog and I’ve been meaning to ask you, what do you think of the Toxic Faith book?
My friend and I have been sending up a flare for your situation when you come to mind. Hope you are finding some direction. Thanks for sharing your story – it’s amazing how this weird self righteous religious woo woo divides families. We’ve experienced it too even though our scenarios have different details. In praying for our loved ones to get out of wac world it’s been like praying for salvation – they need the scales to be removed from their eyes to see the heart of the truth and to realize their version of truth is actually deception. (of course, they think WE are in deception)
Keep us posted ok? – we will keep the prayers going!
Thanks Detox. It’s a good book so far insofar as the psychological side of things goes with a God/Biblical emphasis. I realize the author is generalizing a few things, not being able to address specific false and toxic doctrines. I think that’s where the other web sites I found help me understand the specifics, though Latter Rain and Word of Faith have a toxic nature by the sheer pride and arrogance they require to sustain themselves.
Even with being more equipped there are times when I still feel defeated and wondering if it is worth the effort, trying to expose these things to my wife. I agree with you about it being like praying for salvation, the scales removed. There, of course, is the added element that she is SURE she is right and (as you put it) that I’m the one in deception. After so many years of this crazy stuff being around me all the time I, at times, still question myself on it – wonder to the Lord if I’m taking the right stand.
What keeps me going is the conviction the Lord has put on my heart about it, and of course my kids and how they will grow up, that they need to see me taking a loving stand against this. As mentioned previously the years of it have definitely effected my walk. Either it needs to change soon, or for the sake of my sanity, spiritual and mental health, I need to walk.
Thanks so much for your prayers. I know they help!
I know what you mean – Both Toxic Faith andToxic Churches deal with the dysfunctions of spiritual abuse in churches, so it’s not necessarily limited to LR doctrine being in the church. However, the LR doctrine is most likely at the root of why these leaders feel entitled to be authoritarian and controlling. There are a few other books on the list we’ve made where the writers are still very much a part of Christian culture but they have peeled back the layers of the particular deception that they know about. Like the book Twisted Scriptures. You still have to wade thru the christianeze tone of the author. BUT she has revealed how certain scriptures have twisted from their original meanings.
Anyway, it’s good to have other sources and they seem to be surfacing more and more as ppl share their experiences and their findings. And they seem to be confirming each other. So the good news is we are not alone!
Yes, got that book too in fact, Twisted Scripture. Good so far. Thought you might like to know that I met David Mackin’s daughter on a project I’m working on. It was kind of funny how it came about. She and I were chatting and she was saying how she grew up in BT and I said, wait, is your dad DM? She was shocked. I shared with her about his involvement in this blog and how his insight has been an encouragement to me. She seemed proud of him for sure.
Earlier this week I sat down with him for 4 hours talking about my marriage and what has gone on. He had some good insight and I appreciate him as a brother in Christ. Food for thought for sure. Lots to digest.
I understand that Toxic Faith isn’t limited to LR, but I think you make a good point that the doctrine itself makes it a fertile ground for that kind of leadership. As far as my research goes it is a VERY empowering and pride centered approach; taking your authority in Christ kind of thing, being God’s power on earth as his children, tapping into God, etc.
As my wife was beat down by her mother’s oppressive ways I can see how she was drawn to this false doctrine instead of the humility and love that we are really called to. I can see how this doctrine crowds out the Holy Spirit to do His convicting work in the hearts of people. Thankfully the Lord keeps knocking even when the bad influence is long gone.
You can say a lot about LR and what it does to men. But I think to focus on what it doesn’t have, the heart of God, the heart of Jesus – it lacks what we need most; the compassion and love of people. There is little room for orphans and widows, the beaten and downtrodden. After all, if they just gave more, gave their tithe, then they wouldn’t be in this predicament. This toxic kind of faith is all about empowerment, playing into pride, greed, and arrogance, which unfortunately is fueled all the more by the thing we call the American Dream.
Funny how Jesus didn’t say much of anything about this. The Sermon on the Mount…who did he call blessed? Those that tithe? No. Not in my bible. But you wouldn’t find that preached very much in today’s ‘pastor-king’ churches. The pastors I admire most, because of their Christ-likeness (in my opinion), are those that are humble and self-depracating, who are kind and compassionate to everyone they come into contact with. That is Jesus to me. They don’t elevate themselves, but come and put their arm around my shoulder and ask in the most genuine way, how are you doing?
When I was 15 I went on a mission trip to Peru for 2 months. One of the best experiences of my life. It was the mid 80′s, a time of great wealth building, and the Evangelicals were on the war path. I was amazed at the church there, the believers. They had so little, yet were so giving to each other, taking care of each other, and so hospitable to us ‘rich’ Americans. It was humbling to say the least. There was no call to tithe, and yet they were some of the most blessed and generous people I came to know and love.
Again, just typing away here… still so much to learn (turning 41 this year). In all of the chaos that is life, I think of the scripture/song and it is all I really want… But to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.
Love your ruminations NIE so thanks and please keep them coming. It’s great to hear you met with David and worked with his daughter! Sounds like one of those things the Lord set up – 2 divine appointments for sure!
I love that verse too. Justice, mercy, humility, all qualities of the God who created us and it would be so NICE to be more like Him.
My friend and I were recently lamenting how the church doesn’t feel like the refuge it once was for us. It’s turned into a side-show in so many cases. Not every church, but the world we came out of certainly is and we get a little nervous when the Good Church starts doing and saying things that remind us of what we came out of. That pastor-king thing seems to exist EVERYwhere. And that’s bcz the people want that. Even if a good pastor tries to resist the worshipfest, he’s only human and may give into it one way or another at any given point.
Anyway, it seems like, bcz we aren’t the pastorworship kind, we have no place where we fit except on blogs and with each other. As my friend so aptly says, “we aren’t trying to be the new elite”, we just want authentic christianity. Everybody seems to claim they have that but then they worship their pastor or want to stay cloistered in the church, so what is that? And if you try to talk about it with a person of that ilk, they look at you like you are either bitter or crazy and devisive to the body of Christ.
I find myself vollying between throwing my hands up saying WHO CARES what they do!? and then caring about what they do or don’t do TOO much. Between having compassion and feeling utter frustration. It’s much easier not to care at all. But then, if the Holy Spirit is resident within you, how can you NOT care? God cares a GREAT deal about his church, so to flippantly not care isn’t really His heart at all. However, when I don’t care I think it’s bcz I’m exasperated and to stay sane you can’t care all the time.
Who knows, maybe we’re not SUPPOSED to fit, bcz maybe the Lord is trying to strip it all down to making HIM the refuge instead of a community built around a pastor-king. Letting the verse you quoted be our guide, I guess the important thing is to keep a level head and heart – try to keep compassionate and humble – yet to balance that with a love for justice. And when you love truth and justice, WATCH OUT bcz a bit of righteous indigation is bound to come into play!
Excellent post De-Tox! We seem to be living in an interesting time right now for the church and beyond. We are well aware of the verse that says to be aware of the times you are living in. Its hard to stay in a bubble right now with just a glance at the news. The world is obsessed with Lindsey Lohan’s problems. Is it because we can at least contain her problems but the oil spill, or the economic crisis, which is not going away as we hoped- now that is way too overwhelming.
Most of us on here were the church workers, the loyal attenders and even staffers at a MFI style of church. We go over and over in our minds -what happened. I didn’t set out to be on the outside of this current church world, but that is what happened. Or at least we feel like we’re on the outside because we’ve said enough is enough. We’ve done it all from working in the nursery, to attending Growing Kids God’s Way to doing every meeting and fourth of July picnic our church had. We saw programs come and go and we can’t stand it any more. Its fruitless unless God is really in it. Somehow we lost Him along the way in this world – at least the real Jesus who we came to know at the beginning.
I have so many words of sympathy and empathy for you Non Itching Ears I haven’t known where to start, but just know I’ve read your blog posts here and sent up a flare -my version of saying I’m sending up prayers on your behalf because I know the Lord will hear the heart cry of a genuine believer who is crying out in pain.
We’ve so been where you are right now and I know it looks worse but I am seeing the light at the other end of the dark tunnel –its taken about 5 years!
That was the speed -up plan kind of like they used to have in Betty Crocker Coupons for anyone who can relate to that –there was a slow plan to get what you want, or the speed up plan. For me the speed up plan for getting light on what exactly is wrong with this world of this abusive -controlling church happened when I got on staff and found it was a train ride to nowhere. Ours was the sister church of your dear wife’s and it is so similar we can’t tell you!
Reading this blog led me to research spiritual abuse and that led to light on the fact we were indeed taught a different gospel and you have so nailed it! If there was a prize I could give you I would. I can’t tell you what hope you give Detox church group, free at last and me because we thought no one else out there was ever going to do the research and make the connection.
Yes Dick Iverson was one of the main components as you found in your research. So the next logical conclusion is “We were taught a different gospel there!”
The fruit of this type of teaching is stated so eloquently, or funny,, or with tones to make the church ladies blush – but its all right here. Yes Evidence that demands a verdict!
No wonder all the time they taught on Revelations I was researching my Bible saying where is that? I must have missed a meeting. I didn’t miss a meeting -it isn’t in there. This is just one teaching that threw me off balance.
Everyone else seemed to have no problem with it. Oh the red flags I missed! So much more I want to say but this could turn into a book so suffice it to say we are with you 100% –you are onto something of truth so stick with it!
Galations 1 is the perfect chapter on this. Your wife is under the same deception many of us on here were under. I am working like crazy to help friends and people get it, but it is a hard one. I don’t know why its been so covered up till now but God is doing something around the globe so don’t faint!
I’ve seen stories from people who get what you are getting from New Zealand to Africa to England. It seems to be time for it. Keep on the blog path as it got you this far.
Here’s to you getting more support and God is with you! Wish I had something funny to tell you, but when all else fails watch The Onion Network on youtube – it always makes me smile………
…and yet the members are adamant that the word is preached, and they are fed… Makes me wonder…
The question is ‘What’ are they being fed?
Keep it going will ya? I got some stuff to say. Plus I’d like to try and figure out if I know some people still around here. Jay Lawrence
Been a while since I updated. Interesting things going on for sure and God has been faithful to answer my prayers, giving me opportunities to talk with my wife about CBC and the error doctrinally as well as with the leaderships position/beliefs. It’s been interesting too as I’ve felt more and more than I’m stepping into the role God intended for me all along, to be a strong spiritual leader in and of my home and family.
I’ve addressed one or two doctrinal issues with both of our bible’s open. I have the original Greek/Hebrew lexicon, so it’s very helpful. She hasn’t said, oh, wow… I’m leaving there or anything yet, but I pray it’s sinking in. She’s seems to think that the church meeting her needs comes first over being a place where the true Gospel is taught and preached. That just baffles me as she and I both grew up in a very Bible centric churches where that was not the main draw — the emotional hocus-pocus of much of the Charismatic movement has to it. Don’t get me wrong, I got caught up in it for a while too… though there was always something there that told me God wasn’t in it.
Granted, I’ve mentioned CBC’s role in MFI and told her of MFI’s affiliation with Latter Rain Doctrine (a very dangerous and false doctrine). She’s said she’s never heard it preached from the pulpit. I’ve talked about this a bit before in my posts. Per my wife’s request, I’ve been developing a document that details what the Lord has shown me to be the false doctrine preached there/held to by it’s leaders, affiliations, those it chooses to align itself with, etc.
To this day I have not heard of any repentance in the leadership, which is the Biblical cue that there has been a turn back to the path the Lord intended for his children. I do pray their eyes would be opened, as mine were a while ago, to the plans the enemy has had to pull many astray. God cares as do I and many others with friends and family in CBC, let alone many believers that we are called to love, and do love.
I guess my question would be of the leaders of this blog (which has been a great encouragement to me) is… can they post a statement of what is the false doctrines CBC subscribes to that it might provide me more insight into what to present to my wife (and others if necessary)?
I would be happy to share what I have learned/been lead to address if that would help. In fact I’m sure I’m not the only one that would find a page like that helpful. Maybe it’ll be a proverbial Wittenberg door kind of thing… a statement that shows the error and false doctrine issues with the biblical and lexicon of the Greek/Hebrew behind it. Yes, I’ve heard some of the things said on various posts, but would love to have one place to go to, to pull from. If anyone has a place they know this exists, posting the link would be a great thing.
My wife has invited me to come to CBC and the ‘welcome’ class, saying that there is a time at the end to asks questions and that I could ask them there about what the church believes and present my issues. I could do that, but part of me wonders how much good that would do. How far would I really get in presenting things?
She even suggested that I could get a meeting with the head pastor (Frank) and talk about what I think are errors in CBC’s doctrine. I would love that, but at the same time, from all I’ve heard it seems like a futile effort. The man has been told by people he has known for years (maybe even respected) and he has rejected it. Right now it is taking responsibility for my family and its spiritual health as God will hold me accountable for.
Frank may feel (I can’t speak for him – just observe) he is right where he needs to be, but I can tell you after meeting and knowing the kind of servant pastors and elders that the Word really talks about, how those in leadership SHOULD be… well… it’s kind of like how they train bank tellers to recognize a counterfeit, they show them the real thing long enough and when they see one come across that isn’t, well… there you go.
Itching— Me thinks your wife is too Polyanna. None of her suggestions of “meetings” would benefit ANYBODY. Don’t waste your time.
I recently spoke with an ex-elder at BT and asked how the men I always considered to have integrity (Ken, Bill, Lanny, others) could stand by and support the wrongs that go on there and not stand up to then Dick and now Frank that they were off course from the Bible.
Ken told this person to basically buck up and shut up and be a yes-man if he wanted to stay around. That for them to create a stir or whatever and point out the wrong teachings, etc., that the division in the “flock” would be more devastating to lives than the damage being done already by the wrong teachings, etc….
The moral of the story is…… guess there is little to no integrity.
That is such a powerful statement. I think there are so many people who may not admit it, but feel this way. It’s the honest way of saying “God has not released me yet”.
I laugh every time I hear someone suggest a meeting with Pastor Frank. I have tried and tried and tried (while I was at CBC and after) to get a meeting and it just isn’t going to happen…unless he needs something from you.
All you should have to ask your wife is “Where is the Gospel?”.
You won’t find it at CBC except on Easter…and then it is only presented to “sinners”. I won’t get on my soap box because I’ve said it so many times here…but the Gospel is not just for sinners…it’s for the saved. Asking Christ into your heart is worthless without the work on the Cross. The fact that CBC doesn’t care to mention that should be more than enough reason to bolt.
Hi everyone!!
Im ready to start looking for another church!!
Any suggestions much appreciated…. THANKS…
gabby.. where do you live.. if portland general vicinity and how old are you…
do you want big or small, charismatic or not
Do you mind/want a church where a lot of ex-groupies attend.. relive the moments of the abuse everywhere you look…
I don’t believe in driving many miles to attend church. There are many good/ok churches all over the Portland metro area.
south east portland!! I dont care about how big or small. Im mid 30s but prefer to hang out with older folks. not much into the hip young ones that are more intrested in bowling than Praying or worshiping the lord.
Mostly Im looking for good preaching and people who walk in Love, or at least really try to.. Im not expecting perfection ,but I would like to feel like im accepted and not looked down on…
Congratulations Gabby for taking that step. Hopefully you can get a good recommendation from somebody here. I personally haven’t lived in Portland area for years.
Hi Gabby! I recommended my church to NSQ, but haven’t seen her there yet!
I love my church. The style is liturgical, which means the service is mostly written down. The music is hymns. It takes some getting used to, but there is so much substance in it — even in the words to the hymns.
Every week there are 4 readings from the Bible, one from the OT, one from the NT, one from the Psalms, and one from the gospels. Every week (unless the pastor is gone — rare), there is communion. I like that.
The pastor teaches every week directly from the Bible passage: verse by verse. Last week’s sermon was one of the best I have ever heard, and I’ve heard a zillion sermons. When he is done teaching, you have a greater sense of the wonder of the Lord Jesus and a greater sense of devotion to follow Him for who He is, not even thinking about what He can do for me.
And then afterwards there is a nice coffee and snack time when people just talk and have fun. It’s so homey. There are lots of families and kids, and lots of older folk too that have been part of the church forever, a good blend.
The other thing I like about it IS the people. They are so nice. I’ve been there for six years now (wow), and sure they’re human, but there’s none of this: “we’re a better class of Christians than those people.” You know what I mean.
Anyway, it is in SE Portland, so maybe you can visit. That would be nice.
I live in SE and go to The Well in North Portland.
I like the fact that we pick one book of the Bible and go through it verse by verse. When we’ve finished one book we move on to the next. It’s hard to get off track Biblically, when all your teaching is done direct from the Bible.
Also they really encourage you to study for yourself and are more than open for discussion if you disagree with something.
I also love the people there. Most everyone is real…there is no hype, no fake, no trying to out-do everyone…just real people, with real struggles.
The big 10 year anniversary is coming up with weekend so Sunday morning will be at Crown Plaza instead of our normal building.
Only church I can recommend in good concious would be The Well, because they preach the Bible and the Gospel with no demand for money. I’ve also heard pretty good things about Imago Dei Community and Irvington Covenant Church as well. Finding a church is never easy. When I moved from Portland to Southern California I church hoped for years until I participated in the start up of Sojourn Village. Now I’m settled.
Just let God guide you to the place that best fits you and your personality. And remember, there is no perfect church but you don’t have to settle for a bad one either.
If I was still in the Portland area I would go to Evergreen Communities.
Went there once .. they meet in a bar, amazing how well a bar is set up for church.
http://www.evergreenlife.org/
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Sojourn Village is a nice name – nods to the journey as well as our need to find a place to settle.
Didn’t know where to post this, but Pastor Frank has posted on facebook, requesting poll responses on another GU song… featuring, like last year, HIM!
One responder said, ” I vote a YES on this one! Just make it bigger and better than last time. Show some moves. All in Jesus name, of course. Haha”
Another said, “Its definitely a serious call of God on your life, I am for it!”
Another, the brother of a pastor in the church, said “I’m for some version of “Pants on the Grown”, maybe your homeboys can come up with Christian version of the American Idol classic. Who knows where this might take you?”
The first one sounds scandalous, the second sounds presumptuous, and the third one sounds obnoxious. I’m not sure what to think of the third one… there are over 40 comments in response to his post, and I find it beyond amusing.
So, do YOU think Pastor Frank should feature/be featured in a new GU rap song about how great he is, and how “amazing/hip/important for your salvation” the shirts, media, hats, and water bottles are?
GAG me.. or is this good, clean Christian fun??
What do you think the apostle Paul would say if his followers wanted to make a “pants on the ground” video of him? What do you think Peter (who was crucified for His Lord upside down because he did not feel worthy of a cross) would say?
Do I think Paul or Peter were mirthless bores? Of course not. But I do think they took their role of preachers of the gospel and builders of Christian maturity seriously. I’m sure they would not allow their disciples to adulate them in such a manner.
Besides, if you had the opportunity to create a video that thousands of young people in a totally captive audience would see…. is this what you would make? Seriously?
what is “pants on the ground” ? did I miss some education in my life?
This is where I should launch into my tirade about how out of touch Christians are with the real world and how “late” they are in trends and memes– that came out over a year ago. Oh, and he said the word “homeboys”… that word is so dead, not even the Fresh Prince would use that on his show (and was in the early 90′s).
But maybe I should give him a break, perhaps it is due to old age and not being in the bubble. However, if that skit makes it into the church repertoire, then I will have my answer.
A spoof I could see, but realisticially a 60 yr. old guy trying to identify with the current generation, it’s pretty lame, eh?
Well, they’re not laughing with him. As long as he’s fine with them laughing at him, then I guess it serves its purpose, right?
I can imagine half of the laughs are ones of incredible discomfort having to sit through a senior citizen trying really hard to act hip while making fun of it at the same time… but still thinking its hip…
The sad truth about this is that if he just sat on a chair on the stage and answered real questions the kids had about the existence of God; the sovereignty of God; That Christ is or is not God; If it really is a sin to smoke drink and chew or even hang out with those that do and all the other questions teens have today they would respect him more.
This cartoon show is very elementary and goes directly to the problem CBC has in relating with kids its students and anyone else who might be a free thinker.
All they need to do is answer the question. It really is easy .. Jesus is always the answer.
Are you sick = Jesus; are you poor = Jesus, are you hurt = Jesus, are you in sin = Jesus, are you …… = Jesus.
Do you need to live for something other then commercialism and strip malls = Jesus!!!!
Free thinkers are probably not taken too kindly to in these type of churches. After all, if you are a church that basically asks people for fork over large amounts of their income, the last thing you want is any ambiguity poking its head around.
What I mean by that is that there are hard questions that people can ask, and not all of them could even be answered in any definitive way. I fully believe that “I don’t know” if a completely legit answer. In fact, I respect people who say that and am suspicious of those who never do. However, I am not sure if you want to write a five-figure check to a church and then hear a bunch of “I don’s knows” coming from a pastor.
Hey, here’s 10% (or more) of my 250k a year job…. is God gonna bless me? Huh? “Maybe”, “if it is His will”??? Forget you, I’m taking my check to a church that tells God to bless me.
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I love this. SO true! Really, it’s what everyone these days needs to hear and know. All the commands and demands to pray away the mountains, and overcome, and give of ourselves to the local church are so manipulative… Jesus is rarely mentioned, let alone the center.
Do young people today even KNOW Him? Or are they going to be the ones dying, standing before His throne, and being told, “I never even knew you”? That’s so scary! All the striving and intentions and distractions and false hype aren’t going to be salvation for them… only JESUS. Jesus. Jesus. JESUS! Such a beautiful and powerful name – and yet, in the church today, it’s used for personal gain and promotion. It’s sickening. And, yet, so many don’t know. They think they’re being taught the Word, but so much of it is lies… wolf in sheep’s clothing. Reminds me of the book by C.S. Lewis (Last Battle – Chronicles of Narnia). The donkey in sheep’s clothing was only the puppet – there was something dark and sinister behind the one directing that manipulation and undetected terror.