That headline may be a little incindiary, but it's essentially correct. A judge sent an Oregon couple to jail for failing to provide medical help for their sixteen year old son.
The Beagleys knew Neil was ill two weeks before he died in June 2008 from complications of a urinary tract blockage, they testified. Despite the boy's failing health, the Beagleys didn't take Neil to a doctor. Instead, they decided to honor the boy's wish to put his fate in God's hands.
The judge got this one right. If you as an adult want to put your medical help in God's hands, then fine. But when you have children, you're not afforded that liberty anymore. Parents need to do everything reasonable to help their child live a healthy life. And frankly, your Faith in God just doesn't cut it.
Or I guess another way to look at it, God decided not to save the boys life. And God also decided to send these parents to jail to teach the rest of the congregation a lesson: GO TO THE HOSPITAL!
I agree with the judges’ decision. As a parent, you don’t have the right to with hold medical treatment from an underage child. If the kid was 18 it would be different.
Your final paragraph, showing God sitting in heaven giving the thumbs down on the boy’s life, shows your calvinist leanings…..but we probably shouldn’t go there.
Your final paragraph, showing God sitting in heaven giving the thumbs down on the boy’s life, shows your calvinist leanings…..but we probably shouldn’t go there.
I just think that if you believe everything that happens is God’s will. Then the consequences for trusting in God are also God’s will. But now I’m getting theological, and that’s a realm, where I do not belong.
Justin doesn’t have Calvinistic leanings…i do. And for God’s sake. If HE isn’t in control of EVERYTHING than who is?
I don’t think many “Christians” are going to aree with this statement…but when doctors can fix things that prayer
can’tdoesn’t…[Comment ID #37290 Will Be Quoted Here]1 John 5:19…..
My question to these parents: Do they just pray that money will arrive in their mailbox, or do they go out and work? Do they pray that dinner will appear in the oven, or do they shop and cook? Do they pray that clothes will appear in their closets, or do they buy them or sew them? Do they pray that houses will grow from the soil, or do they build them?
After all, Jesus said that if we seek the Kingdom, then all these things would be added to us.
So, when a child is sick, why don’t they do what they do in other areas, pray and then avail themselves of the blessing of living in a country with medical care?
No matter who you attribute it to the saying, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.” is true in this case. These people have watched loved ones die yet cling fanatically to this false teaching. Do they truly believe that God will punish them for saving the life of a loved one by going to a doctor?
1 John 5:19
So is the “evil one” more powerful than God…that he might thwart His plans?
Is God allowing the “evil one” to have “control” of the “whole world” (thus still in complete control)
or
Does that scripture mean something else entirely?
EXACTLY! Why would I even want to serve a God who isn’t in control of everything? Like what’s the point? Fire insurance is for the birds. I want internal peace now…one that only comes from the Creator and controller of EVERYTHING!
[Comment ID #37311 Will Be Quoted Here]
This is exactly the kind of argument that supports the parents’ point of view. I’m not trying to stir a deep theological debate here, but it is important to note that your views on faith vs. choice/action are not trivial. They affect how you see God and what your responsibility is in responding to the world around you.
My point is that a less-than-careful belief in God’s sovereignty can lead down the path of “I’m not responsible for anything and I can blame God (or the Devil, depending on my mood) for everything.” To assume that because God is in control of everything we only need to pray or “have faith” for the proper outcome is to completely disregard every Scripture that calls us to obey and to act. I can believe that God is ultimately in control, but my choices & actions matter. “Faith without works is dead.”
100% agree! Thanks for clarifying.
[Comment ID #37298 Will Be Quoted Here]I was at work when I wrote the one scripture reference, sorry to be short. Luke 4:5-8 kind of goes with the 1 John 5:19 reference. Isa.54:15 is another ref. that shows not everything is God's will going on. satan has never overpowered God and never will. What happened was deception. God had given the earth to man (Gen.1:26), but satan tricked them into disobeying God, and instead, doing what he wanted. (Rom.6:16) We became slaves to sin until Christ freed us. The world is still under satan's control until Christ returns. God isn't responsible for evil, we are. I've been going to the Well off and on for awhile, I'll introduce myself and we can discuss this better.
I just realized I posted the wrong name. I’d rather use the usual one, WhatHeSaid.
Please do. This would be a lot easy to cover in person.
I feel that what you are doing here is simply ignoring the reality of God’s Sovereignty.
God is either Sovereign or He isn’t. There is no in between.
Now an argument can be made for whether God truly desires (what we would call) “evil” to happen or if He only allows it…but either way you look at it, if God is Sovereign than it has to be His will.
As an example, how would you describe this situation:
You as an adult know that a teenager in your home is molesting a little child. You have it in your power to stop this abuse but choose to do nothing.
Should we say, Its not your fault? You aren’t doing the molesting, you don’t like molestation, its not in your nature to molest? Or do we say it must be your will that it happens because you do not choose to stop it.
I believe this is referred to as “Permissive Will”.
What are your thoughts?
Another thought.
When I first started attending The Well Church I heard a lot about the “Offense of the Gospel”. That didn’t make sense to me. Why would the truth about Christ be offensive…but it is.
The real Gospel tells of a God who is in complete control. So much so that we have to rely on Him for everything and trust that, although it makes no sense to us, He has a plan.
As Christians, we often want to make God all powerful at times but then at other times give ourselves control and occasionally even give Satin the power.
It was a hard pill to swallow when I first realized that God was in TOTAL control…but it has since given me a much greater peace in life. Knowing that, no matter what comes my way, God allowed.
Satan will not thwart God’s plan and neither will I.
(How’s that for a slight “Calvinistic Leaning”)?
Just a thought: If God has 100% control, and we have 0% control, then why does He tell us to repent, or urge us to make good choices, and hold us responsible when we don’t?
I asked my question first, Anna.
Ok then, here are my thoughts, for what they are worth. When there seems to be a paradox, I look to see what the Scripture says. Off the top of my head, this is what I know:
God is omniscient. He is aware of everything everybody does. (Ps. 139)
God is omnipotent. He does whatever He wants. (Job 42)
God is just and true. (Rev. 15)
God sees the evil, but does not force anyone to do good (Gen. 6)
God has given a death sentence to all mankind for their sin (Rom. 6)
God does not want everyone to perish forever (Peter ?)
God Himself paid the death sentence for anyone who believes (John 3)
God Himself preached the message of repentance and believing (John 1)
but… God does not force anyone to repent and believe (Rev 2)
and… God does not force people to stop sinning (Gen 6)
So… that leads me to believe that God has the ability to control everyone’s actions, but He does not. Why not?
I think it is because He desires voluntary repentance, obedience, and love. Mostly love. Because love that is not voluntary is not love.
Also, because God’s judgment is impending, we can think that it is nonexistent and that God is doing nothing. But part of the message of the gospel is judgment on evil. There is a Day of Vengeance coming (Isaiah 61, 63) and it’s scary.
The problem of evil and suffering is the stuff of long debate, but we cannot ever allow our limited understanding to turn our hearts away from faith in the truth that God has revealed to us.
Your turn.
[Comment ID #37343 Will Be Quoted Here]Thanks for the stand in Anna!
I will agree that God is sovereign. He decided to ‘allow’ free will in His creation. Evil came about due to Adam & Eve ‘deciding’ to disobey God and obey satan. Christ has redeemed us from the curse, but not everyone will come to Christ, so evil continues. It isn’t God’s will. An example of God not ‘getting His way’ is seen in Luke 13:34. He “wanted” to gather them together, but they would not have it, so it didn’t happen.
[Comment ID #37346 Will Be Quoted Here]
Can I butt in here? Sorry, not trying to answer the question on JP’s behalf but this topic is so near and dear to my heart, I have to say something. Me and JP are on the same page, so hopefully you don’t mind.
Anna, I don’t believe we have the human capability of understanding God and that’s where faith comes to play. However, I do believe there is some explanation to what you are asking.
For me, God is in 100% control. I just don’t see how anyone can think God’s will can’t be done because of sin or Satan. And yes, bad things happen to good people. That’s just a part of life. The sooner we all accept it the deeper our faith in God and others will be. Can anyone explain cancer in a true God-fearing person? No. There is no way to explain that. Why do kids suffer and die of horrible diseases? I have no idea. But the sooner we STOP focusing on ourselves by trying to figure out why evil exsists and START trusting in God regardless of what bad is our there, the stronger all of our faith will be.
I believe God asks us to repent not because we have the control to rid our sin, but rather to get us to take the focus off of our sin. Repentance is only an action of the mind. I believe whether we do it our not, we are still chosen by God. Jesus died on the cross for our sins long before any of us ever repented. So you see, we are only repenting for our own acknowledgement of the filthy rags that we are, but repentance does not open some magical door that then allows God to come into our lives. If he wants to be there, He’s already there, and He’s been there from the beginning. I think the better question is how do we even get the urge to repent? The desire to want to change? Do you think that comes from our own control? I don’t. I believe God knew us, formed us, and called us while we were still in the womb. He knows who’s going to choose Him and who’s not from the beginning. In addition, His urging us to do good and holding us responsible when we don’t is not about the control that we have but again about the control He already has. I can only best explain it as a father to a child. I as an adult know that touching a hot stove will burn my hand, however my child has absolutely no knowledge of this unless I tell her. But if she does it anyway, she has to live with the consequence. It’s the same way with God as our Father. He tells us things like “no sex outside of marriage,†or “no lying/cheating/stealing†etc., not because we have all the control in everything but rather because He knows the results and wants to protect His children from the harmful outcome. So just because we have free will in our daily actions doesn’t mean God doesn’t control 100% of the results.
For me the reason why I believe in a truly sovereign God is because by turning my life over to Him, knowing that He is in control of the whole universe, I have the true definition of “the peace of God†in my heart. And that frees me from sin. Not in the “I can do whatever I want†way, but more in the life is not about just “doing good and bad things†way. For me sin is sin, in my heart and in my life, regardless of my actions. I was born into it before I even said or did a thing. However, God chose me, took the blood of Jesus and washed me clean. Now I serve Him not because I have to but because I want to. I don’t live in fear of God because of my sinful actions, I live in fear of God because of His amazing grace! By turning over my desire to control, manage, direct, guide, steer and form my life, I take the burden off of myself and place it solely in the hands of God and just relish in His amazing power, presence, love, and grace for my life. Thus now I truly love God and don’t just give Him lip service because I feel like I have to or obligated to for fire insurance or the like. You see He’s already done enough for me. If He never “blessed†me with anything else in this life, I can still stay “God is enough.†That’s the power that Job had, the brokenness that David found, and the joy that Paul walked in.
Thus I believe we have free will, but our free will is subject to God’s ultimate control.
To be clear, I hold no ill will towards anyone who has a Calvinist outlook, it is a secondary issue at best, the primary thing is to be true to Christ.
These two schools of thought are quite old, and the positions they hold have been around since 400 or 500 AD give or take a few years. There has been much blood spilled over these arguments, and perhaps that is why people don’t seem to know of them….no one wants to stir the pot again. I also think a lot of Christians do not have a good theological understanding of either position, and it isn’t taught much in charismatic circles. A feel good party is more fun than hard thinking and research into God’s word. (that is why I like the Well, because they preach/teach directly from scripture!)
As a Vietnam vet, I am more comfortable with the free will argument. I see the world as being under satan’s control until the 2nd coming, and it explains the evil I have seen quite well.
You’re right, HeSaid; it is an old debate. I’ve tried on the Calvin coat and tried hard to wear it, but there are just too many “yes, but…” verses in Scripture that make it “unwearable.”
I’m all for being teachable, Reformer (and JP) if you can show me the theology in the Word. I’ve had the Calvin conversation with a couple of others online, and dropped it when I got inundated with pages of “proofs” from so-and-so’s website. That’s not an earnest conversation; it’s a sword fight.
If you really want to tackle it, I’m game. But some definition of terms would be good first. For instance, many Calvin-types say (as Reformer did):
This statement would fall under the definition of the Sovereignty of God, and before we go on, we should agree that we mean the same thing when we discuss it.
If y’all want to forget the hot potato, fine by me, too.
I was at the Well this Sunday am, I looked for JP, but didn’t see him.
Oh well, maybe next time.
Matthew 25:45
“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “
I have a friend whose close relative went without treatment because a “faith healer” told that relative she was not suffering a severe medical problem, as the doctors has said – but rather, that it was something minor and is now gone. The relative never returned to her doctor – until the problem became MUCH worse. Now that relative is dying – and short of a true miracle by the Lord, will soon be in the presence of the Lord (because there is a real relationship).
It makes me so sad. I cannot do anything to help, except comfort and pray. That someone who claims to know the Lord would tell someone they no longer need to see a doctor and are healed – and yet, do no tests… not insist on a second opinion… is barbaric, cruel, and a lie. Again, that person is trying to play “God” and sorry, but they suck at it. They prey on innocent, desperate people – and basically claim that if they go to a doctor, they don’t believe God can heal them. It’s so sad.
It’s so much harder for the young ones out there who are powerless to get help when their parents insist on “faith healer” treatment. Yes, I believe God can heal – and does. But, He even allowed Lazarus to die (before being raised) that we may believe. The two thieves on the cross died. Is the reason so many try to control God is because they are afraid of death and unable to face its realization? Are they so unsure of their position and security in Him? Isn’t that revealing?
One of the strangest things about Religion is that it teaches that God doesn’t use people to fulfill His purposes. So people believe that they have to pray and wait for God to do something.
This reminds me of a joke…
A religious man is on his rooftop with a nearby river flooding the area. Someone comes by in a rescue boat and says “Get in, get in!” The religious man replies, “I have faith in God, he will save me from this tragedy.”
Later the water is up to his waist. Another boat comes by and he’s told to swim over to it so they can save him. The man responds “I believe in God and know that He will save me”.
When the water reaches his chest, another boat comes to rescue him, but he replies, “God is greater than any flood and will save me from it.”
With the water at his chin, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they shout at him to climb up. The man responds, “I don’t need to be rescued by men, God will save me from this plight”.
Finally the water rises over his head and he drowns. He arrives at the Pearly Gates with broken faith and asks Saint Peter what happened. Saint Peter sighs and says, “God sent three boats and a helicopter. What more did you want?”
Seriously!
“God sent three boats and a helicopter. What more did you want?â€
Amen!
What I wanted was a flaming chariot from heaven!
It’s heartbreaking.