For those of you on Facebook, a page has been set up where you can Thank Brother Dick for all his many accomplishments. Specifically, the site says:
Please post a thank you note to this great Christian Pioneer and personal friend to many.
I also noticed that the MFI Leadership Page lists Dick Iverson as the Founder of MFI and Bob MacGregor as the Acting Chairman. Makes me think that perhaps the transition for Dick stepping down has begun. Though, I could be wrong.
Not sure if it has anything to do with his recent marriage, but I suspect it played a role. As I've stated before, I'm fine with Dick Iverson marrying his long-time secretary, and I'm also fine with MFI asking him to step down. Everything could be completely on the up and up between Dick and Roxie, but it certainly looks fishy. And if MFI and City Bible are anything, they are all about image. Your leader marrying his long-time secretary a year after his wife dies, is not a good image.
(Also, Dick Iverson's real name is Keith Richard Iverson. I did not know that? He's been going by Dick his entire life when he could be going by Keith Richard. That's inexplicable. Come on Dick Iverson, you're better than that!)
seems like a typical ushering a person out the door with accolades procedure. How much easier it must be now that we have facebook.
When I think of how easy it could have been when Ken did the switcheroo manuever with Jonathon Owens (the most successful youth pastor in CCC history) and his son Krist! He could have forgone the painful and confusing weirdness in JO’s last service, (which was, by the way, the first time most of us had heard he was no longer going to be the youth pastor and that Kirst would be the new one) and just set up a facebook page. How delighted he must be that he will no longer have to publically address the uncomfortable situations his bad behavior gets him into.
LOL. I doubt though that Dick even knows who Keith Richard is!
Detox, I didn’t know they ran JO out like that? I knew him from way back in the day at BT, he was always one of my favorite guys. Sad story. I need to do some research on CCC. All I’ve heard about it is what I’ve read on here. Sounds like Krist (which suspiciously is a name a little to close to Christ for my taste) is a piece of work himself. Hmmmm, I’m thinking this family of churches might need to be put on some kind of cult watch list.
Makes me wonder how the guys that Judah replaced (Steve Carpenter and Jude Fouquier) felt when they got pushed aside. Those guys were around since Judah was in Junior High, and then Judah basically takes over both their jobs, relegating them to guest speakers (essentially).
Same story, new verse. We wonder were they taught this leadership style.
Rumor had it when poor Jonathan and wife went to the next MFI church even that pastor asked the ‘shell shocked couple’ What Did they do to you?
Good question! I believe it was asked by Bob MacGregor. Oh how to start to tell…
What happens when bad theology happens to good people……..
Annointing…eliteism…shamebased religion…
Anybody? What does this spell?
What happens when bad theology happens to good people……..
Annointing…eliteism…shamebased religion…
Anybody? What does this spell?
The reason all the ex-Capital Christian Center people are on here, and attracted to this site besides the humor and banter is we keep trying to insert all the similarities of experiences we’ve had that are exactly the same as what went on in Seattle and Portland churches.
That was the beginning of the light dawning for us. Once you understand the roots of this whole thing it will answer every question you have ever had!
Why do you think the exact same bad behavior keeps producing the same bad spiriutal results? Why does it continue from church to church in the exact same method in this MFI family? Exactly the same from Portland, to Seattle to Boise to Gig Harbor.
When you get it everything falls into place. This entire group MFI has one special doctrine or theology in common.
CLUE: Google Dick Iverson’s name you will see he is closely linked with this theology!
Come on people think! Or if you were like us google it!
LOL. You know when Free at last and the crew first started commenting on this blog, I thought they were just a bunch of conspiracy theorists. But I’m beginning to think they’re onto something.
Especially when I read stories about another Capitol Hill Row House being run by an Evangelical group called The Family. And yet, no one seems to know who exactly is in The Family. There is something sketchy about all these Evangelical folks and their connections with each other.
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Since I am relatively new here, could someone perhaps give me a crash course in this topic? It sounds fascinating; however, I feel like I have missed the bus on the whole Capitol Hill thing and would like to catch up!
Catalyst
If the Conspiracy fits wear it!
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OK, I’ll give it a try. Dick Iverson is a founder of the ‘restoration’ movement in charismatic circles. He is also a spiritual mentor to Wendle Smith,(citychurch in Seattle) Ken Wilde(Boise Idaho) and Frank Damazio(city bible church, Portland), and others. The national prayer center in washington dc is a place where ‘prayer mapping’ can be used to take over the area spiritually, and thereby gain influence over the nation. These ‘restoration’ leadership types see themselves as spirtiual guides for the nations leadership. They think they have a ‘prophetic annointing’ that will gain them influence. Another person of interest is Cindy Jacobs, an ‘intercessor’ prayer leader. She has done stuff like praying over the statue of the bull on Wall Street in New York, to restore the nation’s economy, and made public ‘declarations’ about it. A lot of this went out the window when Obama got elected, and now the buildings in DC are being sold.
That is fairly interesting indeed. I will have to look more into this for sure. Thanks very much for the Cliff Notes version of the situation!
P.S. Do these pastors actually admit to “Prayer Mapping”, or is this something that people have connected the dots on?
In the early 90′s, some of the CBC prayer conferences included “mapping” proponents like Jacobs and Pierce. The “Transformations” video was popular and prayer walking was done. They publicly prayed over rocks in the sanctuary, and gave everybody in the church stakes for their houses. Frank has since distanced himself from that. I don’t know that the other churches ever got into it.
I see MFI as much more politically Dominionist. I think the “mappers” and the Dominionists are much the same doctrinally. They just go about their goals differently. Being onsite in DC with both prayer and personal influence was important to them.
Too bad joebib or Dave Mackin don’t post here anymore. They would be much more familiar with the background of Bro. Dick and how he was connected with the Canadian group that followed the Latter Rain movement.
That would be in the 50′s and 60′s. Then in the 70′s the church was strongly aligned with the Shepherding movement. There are still elements of that operating in MFI today.
Bottom line: if you are familiar with Latter Rain, Shepherding and Dominionism, you will see the roots of MFI and follow it out to its fruits.
I remember hearing about the Latter Rain movement during my years at TCC. I came across it again when I was actually researching something completely different: The Kansas City Prophets (TKCP), of which the leader of the International House of Prayer (IHOP), in Kansas City, was a part of (which is a whole different can of worms).
Back on point:
So do The City Church, City Bible, etc., actively consider themselves “Shepherding Churches”? If so, that would explain a lot!
Matricks: I think MFI also distanced themselves from the hard-core shepherding, but there are definitely some vestiges left over. There was a post on this site called something like “Dougie broke my leg…” It’s the story of a young person affected by this leader style.
As for IHOPKC, I’ve been there for the prayer room, which is amazing. I’ve loved the teaching on prayer and fasting. I love the music. The teaching on the loving character of God helped me spiritually. But I have since come to wonder about some of their core doctrines. I’ve read pros and cons. Here is a well thought out, nonranting “con” site.
One more thing: I have heard that the relationship between the local churches and IHOPKC is strained for various reason, one of which is that young people go to IHOP and never return to their local church. (Actually, this has happened to other churches in the country, too.)
If there is any ONE principle that MFI/CBC stands for, it is the Local Church. So anywhere that would undermine the strength and sovereignty of that would be frowned upon by them. So even though CBC and IHOPKC share many core doctrines, CBC has avoided them.
When I was to TCC, I never heard them speak so much of “shepherding”; however, I certainly seemed like it went on with members. I wasn’t sure if it was there but they just never put it into words, or if they actually distanced themselves from the practice upon initial inspection (but still practiced it).
During my time, at least, they seemed to be quite overbearing if you were in anyway involved with any aspect of the church that was anything more than just attending. It felt like you had to debrief them on a weekly basis.
Yeah well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…
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Part of what made us go crazy at CCC was how they never owned up to the type of church they really were except for a few times when Ken would actually say we were Dominionists. Of course when he said it (from the pulpit) we thought it was a good thing bcz we too wanted to take over the world for God.
I think Anna is correct in they distanced themselves from the Shepherding Movement; and that was probably because it got such bad press with Bob Mumford etc. So they said no we aren’t shepherding all the while embracing the blatant refried shepherding teachings of John Bevere and his Undercover book. And if you dared question it you were considered a rebel, out from under the cover of your pastor. It just added to the insanity of everything else we were going through. But that’s what abusers do, never calling a spade a spade, they deny what they ARE doing and it makes the ones who question the crazy ones.
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exactly.
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We loved JO too and his lovely wife Raydean. I think that’s how she spelled her name. They were so accessible and truly loved the kids. I think our kids will always remember them for that and hopefully realize there ARE good ppl who loved Jesus and that Jesus will never quit loving them. I wish this type of memory would overshadow the destructive memories they are plagued with.
Cult watch list is a great idea Reformer. Even though they aren’t a cult as far as their belief in Jesus, their behavior certainly reflects that of the cults. Perhaps there should be a redefinition of what a cult is?
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That’s right! I forgot about that! Bob M was JO’s mentor – both really earnest servants of God. Too bad they are still part of a group of churches that basically live by the (ever so secret) Latter Rain / Dominionist movement. I doubt if they even know? It’s easy not to know since it’s so well hidden / buried is more likely.
You have gotten nearly to the bottom of this, Free At Last, but only tell what you feel free to tell
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Well, Cat, at least we now know why we felt some of you guys weren’t quite getting what we were saying.
You are right – there’s something sketchy. We can’t decide if KGW of the NPC is just naive or cunning. He may be both. Either way, you’d be surprised to find out how they actually acquired the NPC.
Catalyst,
I haven’t known where to start to respond to your conspiracy remark, funny or not, because it hits so close to home as to what people have felt about us after we left and began to open up about the things we saw at our MFI church.
There are many of us on here who attended CCC in Boise, were on staff, volunteers to the max and basically gave our lives to Ken Wilde and his cause.
We were privy to trips across the country. We traveled with their families, endured endless staff meetings, retreats and “special moments” when leaders let down their hair as much as they ever do, giving us insight into thoughts, feelings and yes ambitions! Oh the ambition!
The one question I always want to ask people when they realize we are not some strangers to their world, but attended there for 10 – 20 years –do you think we just might know something you don’t know? Do you think in all that closeness in their world that just maybe we saw or heard things you’d be surprised to hear?
The next question is do you know how long it takes to remove the mask of secrecy we experienced there? When we first left cult-world we were literally in fear we would be struck by lightening, or something bad would happen if we dared to speak the truth about our ex-leaders there. No kidding. It has taken years to get the layers off of us but they are coming off. Blogging helps!
To our surprise there were people lined up right behind us to take our place and the abuse! Yes spiritual abuse. Subtle, not beaten with rods, or compound living exactly but it has taken place. We have the flinches and twitches in any similar religious meeting, seminar or conference to prove it.
There is so much to our stories we haven’t known where to start but just give out tiny morsels here and there. The church world identical to Frank and Wendell and Judah is one thing. We had in addition the emphasis on prayer, dominionism and ahh yes the Political Church that was unique to our little corner, though we tried to import it up to Portland and beyond.
So just like family members we had similar experiences but unique because of who our quote spiritual father was. Man I hate that term!
Here’s a morsel of Dominionist living! As part of the prayer team we literally got in trouble after a Washington, D.C. meeting for not having given out enough prophetic words. Insight being enough good prophetic worlds to make our leaders look good in the National headquarters of a Non Profit we were meeting at.
Called Fake It till You Make It! Now that was fun!
That was meant to be ‘good prophetic words’ however taking over prophetic worlds was also on the agenda. We were supposed to be taking over the world there. It was our job to pray it in.
When things didn’t go well, as they often didn’t, we were told it was the Intercessors fault for not praying enough! Wow we couldn’t win could we?
All we ever did was pray for Ken and his family constantly. Favor, favor, favor, blessing, blessing, blessing, increase, increase increase! I can’t even say those words now without connotations like this.
See we do know what we’re talking about Cat. Its a world unto itself!
.
I didn’t mean to cause any harm. I like your comments.
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I won’t answer for NonCeleb or FreeatLast, just saying it’s good to know that so thanks.
One of the points Free brought up is that we still have twitches from the old world and reactions to certain inferences (if it seems like we over react) only bcz we are apparently not over it yet (which is sorta embarrassing since it HAS been 5 years – but alas, we are especially embarrassed by the length of time we STAYED at CCC) We have been feeling like we aren’t the crazy ones but we’ve come to the conclusion more than once that are willing to risk being considered that as we figure out a viable/believable way to get the truth of our particular stories out. Actually, it’s sort of evolving as we grow stronger in confidence that God is not against our telling of our stories. As you know, there are plenty of ppl from Christian Culture who feel, as His spokesmen, that we are wrong to speak of anything other than Jesus and him crucified and all that.
We ARE getting
fewer twitchesbetter, but we’ve also learned from experience to be careful who we talk to in the Christian Subculture about all this since we can be treated with an ‘alrighty then’ look when we say too much (talking about here in Boise not the blog). Some ppl can’t even handle the slightest comment but then there are those where the window opens and they want to hear so you just talk till they seem not not want to hear anymore – it’s the same principle as sharing your faith with someone – you don’t want to knock them over with your words, you just tread lightly and try to stay sensative.That said, we’ve felt safe here to speak up when there’s something to be said, often with no restraint, and even if you may have thought we were conspiracy theorists at times, we can’t help but return since alot of what you guys say strikes a similar chord with us like FreeatLast so rightly stated.
Plus yer pretty dang funny.
I didn’t mean to offend any of you, and if I did. I apologize.
If you could read some of my comments on finance blogs talking about the collapse of Wall Street and the Housing Market, I’m ranting and raving like a loon. So count me as a fan of conspiracy theories.
Ya, I remember you telling us, later after we all got out, about Queen’s agenda for King to go national and how she felt that there was nothing wrong with ambition. On one hand Queen was correct to go against the status-christian-quo of it being unchristianly to admit you harbor any dreams of success, but on the other hand, she sure let the cat out of the bag about their intensions. And here we thought, because we were taught, that they were our spiritual fathers, leaders who actually cared for the church here in Boise and hopefully would care enough to throw us a bone individually, when really it was all about being a stepping stone to a national ministry?
That was probably one of our worst moments for each of us individually when our eyes were open to the fact that they really don’t care about us or our families or whether any of us were successful or not. Apparently the only success we were to have was to help the Pastor be successful. Like it was part of our calling or something. Like none of us had any other callings in life? As soon as they found out some of us did have any ambitions other than the church it was inferred that we had an agenda. It was ok for the First Family to have ambition(s) but not for anyone else. And to think, all this poppycock is still going on today to those who were in line, who took our places after we left. And THAT is why we need to talk about it, whether they are willing to listen to us or not.
Waking up to the fact that they really didn’t care about our well-being was a pretty hard pill to swallow considering all they were asking us to sacrifice of our own lives just to ‘honor the leadership’, especially the senior pastor family. And now they wonder (if they ever think about us thank you) why we need to say anything about it?
3 cheers for Andrew Young for writing a tell-all book about John and Queen Edwards! Maybe we were destined to help them ‘go national’ all along Nonceleb. Just thinking.
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oh do give us links!
of course, then again, you may not want to link yourself. . .
noncelebrity said:
So this one time at CBC, the Ed Schefter was in charge of an event, and it wasn’t going well. So the intercessors were told to pray harder, break through the resistance of the enemy and all that.
Being dutiful, I was praying and this little thought wiggled through my brain, “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” GOD was the resistance? Wow. That took some time to process.
Needless to say (but I’ll say it anyway…) That one event changed the way I prayed from then on. I pretty much stopped praying for their success, but prayed for their repentance, and still do.
Anna,
Great comment and what insight. It was amazing that even when I was drinking the kool-aid by the gallon the Lord would bring a verse from the Bible to my mind like don’t give preferential seating to rich people! I didn’t know what to do with it because it would put my world on tilt. We always had special seating for Senators, Congressman, you know “special people.”
I’m sure we all had similar thoughts even right in the midst of the biggest prayer meetings. We kept asking to hear the Lord and we did thats why we’re here right now. Hope we can help someone else who is getting the same messages.
Catalyst
Thanks for your thoughts to the super-sensitive ex-staffers! We are a little touchy still since we don’t seem to fit anywhere since our Exodus. We may finally be learning to accept that as part of the journey, but you may be
‘our people’ since you get the Christian sub-culture we came out of.
As further proof we’re probably of the same mind set, I have recently been reading the book “A Den of Thieves.” No its not about the Prosperity Church gone wild, though it seems oddly familiar. It’s written by James B. Stewart who wrote “The Disney Wars” another book that absolutely nailed Ken Wilde for us. Or rather Michael Eisner with his psychotic style of leadership. We recommend it to everyone who came out of there.
‘A Den of Thieves’ is all about Wall Street of the 80′s but it is so earrily similar to the crisis we’re in now that we can no longer say we were never warned. Greed and the love of money through takeovers/junkbonds led to all kinds of evil. Now Who was it who spoke a warning on that? Oh yea, Jesus.
If the Prosperity minded Church wants to see how it will all turn out just read this book. No matter who you are –Michael Milken who had 50 million dollar bonuses at a time and was unhappy it wasn’t enough leads the way. Thats 50 Mil in the 80′s mind you!
He basically controlled the stock market from Beverly Hills. If he can fall from grace than anything can happen to anyone. No one wanted to out him on insider trading and see the ship sink.
Oh and he didn’t fall alone. Like many a leader he took a whole lot of people down with him. Its a wonder the stock market didn’t crash, or is this latest mess just part of the fruit of that era?
To predict the future you need to understand the past.
Food for thought City Business Church Executives. For the LOVE of money is …. You fill in the blank.
Since other subjects have come up here, I’l add one too.
I was at an elderly persons home last weekend, and the TV was tuned to “Hour of Power” from the Chrystal Cathederal. I hadn’t heard a Robert Schueller sermon for a long time. This one came from his daughter, who is now in the pulpit, after a family feud. They seem to be having a hard financial time of it! She first started out by saying how hard things have been, almost weeping about how the windows needed washing, but they couldn’t afford it. She then rallied to her point, that God was going to save their ministry! She quoted from John 6:9, where a lad has 5 barley loaves and 2 fish, and it ends up feeding the 5000 people there. She pulls out a little brown bag which represented a lunch bag, and takes ten one dollar bills out as an example. She then says that if every one who hears her sermon would send in $10, it would save their ministry! How slick is THAT! She turns the “feeding of the 5000″ into an anti-gospel story! Instead of feeding the 5000, she wants the 5000 to feed HER! It all seemed so familiar…..every thing is about their ministry and leadership and buildings! So many times they do just the opposite of what Jesus says to do. Mark 6:37, Jesus said to the disciples, “You give them something to eat!” I think the big glass house was built on sand.
Isaiah 58:3
‘Why have we fasted,’ they say, ‘and you have not seen it? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you have not noticed?’ “Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please and exploit all your workers.
Hmmm… sound familiar?
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Yeah I have heard a lot on the local news about this place going broke. They claim they will shut the doors by the end of the year if they don’t get money. A lot of these big old time churches are going through this. I think it’s because throughout the 80s and 90s they promised millions of people that if they mail in their checks God will reward them 10 fold. Well after 10, 15, 20 years of that and now things have only gotten worse for a majority of Americans do to the Great Recession, a lot of these people simply stopped giving. You can only lie for so long. I think there’s some truth in the fact that old people are dying off as well, and the younger folks can’t be duped as easily. No one is going to send their savings away to a complete stranger coming at them through a TV screen. I would like to think that a majority of those under 40 are smarter then that now.
This brings me to a point that is off tangent, but I am curious. Why did TCC stop televising their normal services and GC services? I knew that they went off the air, but never stopped to wonder why. The only logical answer would be diminishing returns on investment.
Judah on at 1 AM wasn’t cutting it with the youngsters?
Reformer;
I believe the Orange County Register had an article on ‘The Crystal Cathedral” recently saying how they were being sued by several people who had performed services for them and had never gotten paid. Such as the people who provided the props and costumes for their extravaganza at Christmas/Easter including camels, sheep and the like.
It seems the jig is up finally. Is it possible we will have to do church without the use of props and running a 3 ring circus? I can’t help but think it was never supposed to be this way. Way out of control!
At least his son who stepped into his father’s shoes for a while than was fired for supposedly trying to preach the gospel will be vindicated. It split their family apart and now this just seems to be more fallout.
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Probably right, with Wendell being sick and all. Also, they could be piggybacking off larger more international ministries such as Brian Houston’s church, Hillsong, in Australia. Saw a flash of Judah’s face in one of their TV advertisements recently. Birds of a feather, according to those who blog about Hillsong with their tales of woe very similar to all of ours. I believe Freeatlast has a link to that or I can look it up. Or if you want to google Hillsong I’m sure it will appear somewhere!