We've touched on this before, but it bears repeating. The City Church's Generation Intern program is a sham and it exploits the very people it purports to be helping. I'm bringing this up, because the City Church has revamped their Generation Intern website, and it looks like they're making a push to attract more suckers.
The basics of the program are that you pay them $4200 a year (plus a $50 application fee and a $100 technology fee) and they will let you work for free for the church. The students do get to take a couple PBC extension courses. But few of PBC's course credits actually transfer anywhere. And at a couple of credits a term, you're not going to be getting a meaningful degree anytime soon.
I'm also a little suprised that they're rolling this out right now. Last month, the Labor Department announced that they are cracking down on internship programs that violate minimum wage laws. And while the focus tends to be on for-profit companies, I'm sure the Labor Department would be interested in a program that charges its interns thousands of dollars to essentially work for free.
Clearly the Intern program is more of a leadership school than an internship program. And in reality, the City Church should just change the name. But since they haven't, I am going to be filing a complaint against the City Church with the Washington Department of Labor and Industries. These kids are being scammed and someone needs to say something.
I've said it before, but if you want to work in ministry, then go to college, get a degree and start volunteering at your local church. Or skip college and just start volunteering. But paying to work for free is foolish. And the City Church should know better.
And the City Church should know better.
Nah. They know what they’re doing. And there are enough well-to-do families out there willing to shell out $4,000 if it will help their little Jeremiah get closer to having their own mega-church business, then so be it. There’s a market for this “training”. CBC is just filling the demand.
I was a City Bible Church intern and it was basically the same thing though I think less money, weirdly enough. We took a trip up to the City Church once with P.Frank and he gave a “talk” to the City Church interns and they went nuts. They were incredibly vocal (lots of “Amen!”s & “Preach!”s), and even then it struck me as kind of bizarre and I went away thinking that the young people at the City Church were much more full of zeal and had a strange enthusiasm for Damazio that not even his own interns exhibited.
Looking back on it now, if the City Church interns were like that all the time, it would require maintaining a level of enthusiasm that borders on insanity. I don’t say this against them – no doubt they were being riled up every day by their “leaders”.
Good.
How Dare You!
You’re right. They do know what they’re doing. But I bet there are fewer wealthy families willing to spend this kind of money for an internship program, than perhaps five years ago.
If you read through the application, there are several references on the importance of paying the full fee and paying on time. My guess is the students have been having trouble making the payments. There aren’t a lot of jobs out there anymore.
I always thought Portland Bible College was kind of a rip-off. But at least there you got a few credits that you could take to Portland State, when you realized a PBC degree wasn’t going to get you anywhere. But this program gives very little to the students and takes a lot. It’s a joke.
Looking back on it now, I can’t believe my parents didn’t try to talk me out of doing the internship and actually helped me pay for it. They were barely part of CBC – not really involved and weren’t part of the community, so they didn’t have the same views/ideas of the church that others did. I don’t blame them or anything, just knowing them now 10 years later – they definitely cared more about me getting a college education then that internship and it’s weird that they didn’t have a problem with me waiting a year to go to college.
I have to laugh when I look back at my thought process in attending PBC. I attended thinking it would “ground me” for the rest of what life had in store, but I found the complete opposite. After one semester I came to the realization that I had been raised in a contrived system that was set up to serve the self-appointed leadership. So instead of grounding me, I found the rug had been pulled from under everything I thought I knew going in. But my blinders were also removed and I haven’t looked back since.
My guess is there are more than a few Generation Interns who will tread the same path I did, and it sounds like they get to do so for less cash than I did at PBC.
I used to go to an unnamed coffee establishment over near TCC’s Kirkland Campus to relax, read, and study. Little did I know that this was the main hang out for these interns. I had to quit going there because it was impossible trying to focus with literally 20+ people around you ranting and raving about TCC and their intern experiences. The only thing that I found more distracting than that was having to listen to the Amway people who used to go there to prey on young students (funny how so many of Amway people are at TCC as well…).
I remember one particular instance where a kid was telling his intern buddy that he dropped out of his Junior year of Electrical Engineering at the UW to “follow God and become an intern.” I wanted to slap that kid silly.
However, it wasn’t only there that i would run into them–it happens more than one would think. I don’t know anything about their enrollment numbers, but I can’t believe there is a huge number of them running around the Seattle area. I think it is just the fact that it is easy to pick them out because I know what to look for: group of two are three college age kids with a certain kind of trendy look at Starbucks, Bible in plain sight, talking very loudly about their experience (which I later pick out to be their ‘intern’ experience). Now, there is nothing wrong with that list of things, it is just that it seems programmed.
Looks like this is common theme with a lot of MFI churches. Trying to model one another I suppose.
http://www.lifechangecc.org/
Life Changers is a nine month program (September- June) designed to mentor serious minded believers in order to help deepen their lives in the areas of discipleship and ministry, for the purpose of building the church and extending the kingdom of God!
The nine months are divided up into three terms. The focuses of each term are:
Servanthood
Basic Christian Doctrine
Ministry and Outreach
Homework and reading are required. Each individual will be involved in outreach, ministry and participation in our Annual Renewal Camp.
The cost for the program is $750 which includes application fee, most materials and the 3 day Renewal Camp.
Matricks – I think this is their Starbucks version of ‘witnessing for the Lord’.
Unfortunately most ppl just perceive them as obnoxious (not to mention right winged republicans drunk on a particular brand of kool-aid) and wish they’d use their inside voices.
It would be an interesting study to find out the statistics of how many of these kids
1. graduate from the program
2. still attend the church after graduating
3. work at their church after graduating
4. work at another church or in a mission field after graduating
5. if they dropped out before graduating, why?
6. if they dropped out, did they walk away from God as well from disillusionment and/or disgust?
7. did they get what they or their parents paid for?
Detox – you said it! The statistics must be scary thats why no body has had the nerve to take them, or if they have than have the place and to show them to the the congregation.
We have run into countless ex-interns down here who not only don’t attend anywhere –which is understandable, but much more important they seem disillusioned and have almost lost their faith. The stories of those who felt the whip of Steve Meistrell’s hand are too many to mention. Yes he was called into be the henchman, doing their bidding, but still……..did you have to use such exteme tactics?
They were paying for this abuse and giving free labor. Their stories need to be told on here and stop this sham of ‘free labor’ on site.
Once again besides the Pastor’s kid,s how many do we know who can honestly say it turned out well? Does that justify those who have almost lost their faith in God entirely?
Just asking!
The number one comment we heard from the disillusined girls was
“I just couldn’t keep up with the pastor’s daughters fashion show!” It made me feel so bad about myself.”
The Kardashians would have a hard time keeping up with the daily fashion show down here! And thats on OUR tithe money to boot!
I could give you my stats…but they won’t make you happy!
Bring em on! That won’t scare us -we’re thinking people, or at least trying to be –now.
Have to warn you the number one tool we’ve gained is to ask questions and investigate anything stated as fact. Its called Critical Thinking – something we gave up on the way to the Kool-Aid stand.
And no Cirtical Thinking is not being critical, as we were taught at the temple, the thought process of asking questions and learning to think for ourselves is what we regained.
With that we’ll want to know where you got them, what year it was taken, what place and who did the research? Of course one program is not enough, we need to look at more than one and more than one year to see if its effective.
Oh, I only meant my own personal info – I don’t have stats on others
And I only say that you won’t like it because I no longer attend church anywhere and I now consider myself agnostic – I understand fully that that really bums Christians out :/
I will say that it wasn’t due to the intern program I took part in though I do think my church experience as a whole, while mostly positive, didn’t really jive with who I felt I was and it definitely made me take a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. look at religion altogether.
I wonder if TCC has any follow-up policy with these kids after they leave the program. I am sure that they have “follow-up proceduresâ€, as in trying to make sure these people keep attending/forking over their money to the church and bringing people in; however, I wonder if they have numbers regarding how this program benefits these people, one, two, maybe five years down the line.
I would be quite curious to know the percentages of people who, after being out of the program for five years:
1.) Feel the program benefitted them in their spiritual life.
2.) Feel that the program benefitted them in their professional life.
3.) Still go to The City Church.
4.) Still go to any church at all.
5.) Would suggest the program to others.
I don’t think this would be a hard task for the program managers to undertake, and I think from a practical standpoint, answers to these questions would start them on a path to understanding how the program is resonating with people who went through it. However, I have the feeling that since they have an ever-replenishing well of new young people to draw from, that they don’t really care what the long-gone graduates are saying simply because these people won’t impact their new crop of wannabes.
Just thinking;
Sorry if i jumped all over you! I thought somehow, someway you would be able to show us a report from an exit survey. Of course what was “I” thinking?! I would be surprised if it was done, or questions even asked.
Detox and I have both run into so many ex-interns who lost their faith in consequence of being spiritually abused while in the program here at Capital,
Church of the Harvest (Mark Bryant) and even at San Diego Church we have began to wonder if it was the fast track to having no faith at all. So yes! We understand where you are and know you are not alone. I also know we go through many phases in life and where we are at one point does not determine how or what we will believe later on in life. I think being on this blog and asking questions, reading and giving input is a great conduit to spiritual thinking. They may have affected you more than you know esp. if you got your faith established there.
Its been our experience its a little easier to regain a lost faith if it was established on the original truth rather than try to undo what they taught and than start all over. However, that said anything is possible. Sometimes I think we learned alot there from false doctrines and theologies that aren’t real Christianity because we know what isn’t right or what we don’t believe and that believe it or not is a starting point!
Matricks;
Good questions! I can always appreciate that you are a thinking person on this blog. As I just discovered with Just Thinking, also a thinker, we have no where to go for statistics that would have any real credibility. We only have the unofficial survey results from endless conversations, lunches, coffees with mixed up interns and absolutely furious parents!
As they say in the legal world never ask a question you don’t already know the answer to!
[Comment ID #37543 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thanks for the kind words. There are a lot of thinkers on here, I just try to respond and keep up!
One question that I wonder about is: how do they lure people to join in the first place? I remember when GI first started at TCC. I mentioned to Pastor Jude that I was thinking about going to back school. Just that little opening allowed him to come in with the “why you should become an intern†sales pitch. It never progressed because I began to show up less frequently in the following months—I didn’t look like the ideal candidate anymore, and therefore I never got to really find out the answer to my above question, which was: how do they lure people in?
I understand the general concept of how some people get spotted as a “good fit for the programâ€, and how they appeal to your fervor; however, I am curious about specific personal experiences. Do they ever frame it like you will have some foot in the door at the church once you are out type of thing? Is there an inherent seed planted that “maybe if I am the most excitable person in the program, the most ‘on fire’, then I can do something for the church when I get out.†What are the angles that they work when leaning on people to join?
My second question relates to people’s experiences once they were in there. I’ve never received the straight dope about what the actual experience is like. I have heard about it from people who are in the midst of it, but it is difficult to get a reliable description from them—mainly because they are in the midst of it! I would be very interested if someone could offer up an honest account of what the experience was like, looking back with 20/20 hindsight.
FreeAtLast: you reference a church in San Diego… what one do you mean? I don’t want to jump to conclusions.
And, I know exactly what you all mean about the “internship” program. I am so excited to be free of it at long last very soon… have to stick it out, but I seriously have a lot of soul searching to do.
Thanks for your great posts – and for keeping us all updated.
I know that many families and parents sign their young’ns up for the intern programs (at least junior high/highschool) because the leaders will be a “good influence on them”, they’ll be under regular pastoral mentoring, and the kids will have experience for when they want to eventually go into ministry, or if they don’t plan on going into ministry, have strong foundations for the years to come. I know someone, very close to me, who went through two summers of interns at one of the churches so often mentioned here – and I know it impacted that person’s life in amazing ways. He’s now serving God whole-heartedly and ministering directly to people… PEOPLE!
(not the programs or the pastor directly). It’s the pastor’s goal to minister to people, and they all live so selflessly, that it’s just a great example.
So, yes, I believe the main reasons they sign up for the intern programs are (however falsely advertised)…
*get the upper hand in ministry (especially in that particular church)
*be under pastoral headship
*get life skills and mentoring that will “carry” them through life… yep, it starts and stops at internship
However, I also know others (far more) who went through the internship program at the same place who fell away, ended up getting into trouble, or just generally fell into the whole hype, fashion, worship the pastor ideology. I honestly have nailed it down to one or two theories… *they have no personal devotional time with their Lord, whether in prayer or the Bible throughout their day (and rely on the teaching at church to bring them through), (or), *they were so disappointed by either the relationships during the program or the lack of continued mentoring as soon as they stopped paying their $500.00 or so.
A dear friend of mine went to PBC – basically an intern program now, rather than any sort of solid college education. This friend became super involved, gave of her time and tithe, and poured her heart out to the leaders. As soon as she started seeking help for some issues she was facing, the contact/conversations/mentoring stopped. I know she cries when she’s alone, she is having such a difficult time in her walk with the Lord, and I just can’t help praying for her (and others) whenever I am reminded of the ladder interns must climb to be given any attention. Because she was struggling with something of the past, she suddenly was let go of the ministry she served in so dedicatedly, she was taken advantage of by the leaders, and she graduated with a very disassitified sense of loss… non transferable, non refundable,… they took her heart, squeezed it, and threw it back in her face. She’s now picking up the pieces and I’m left trying to find answers for her. It’s just not right.
NoStatusQuo,
thats exactly what happened to me!!! It is not right. I feel like they are using people. This is not at all reflective of Christ.
Your friend is not alone. I left CBC and found another church where I am serving. The true Word of God is being preached and I’m being healed from those wounds of spiritual abuse. I hope your friend doesnt become too discouraged. I was to the point that I refused to be part of a church and mistrusted Christians and leaders for a while. But God led me to another church.
I hope she is doing okay.
So true. This whole thing is another example of why these people cause more harm then good. The “program leaders” prey on confused kids with a lot of uncertainty about what they want to do in life. I know one such teenage girl who had a dream of going to beauty school maybe someday opening her own salon, working in hair and make-up in Hollywood on movies and the like. However, she was sucked into a needless internship program, wasting away her days copying bulletins, breaking down service chairs, and reading a number of books with false teachings about finding God. I don’t think these “programs” will slow down anytime soon. As long as they keep feeding the lies to kids and their parents there will always be a pool of young victims ready to waste their lives away in the name of doing God’s will.
As has been said many times on here (but always worth repeating for new readers)…PBC IS A JOKE! The whole it’s a real degree thing is the biggest crock of BS ever told at CBC (and there has been a lot of BS over the years, so that’s saying something). Almost no real college/university outside of Oregon will recognize the degree. And of those Oregon schools/programs that do only about 25% of the classes are transferable. That means that if spend 4 years up there getting your “degree†you are basically wasting a good 3 years of your life because only about 1 year of it actually means something. I know a lot of people who have PBC on their resume and are struggling financially because they can’t get a real job. I mean with the Great Recession and a skyrocketing jobless rate, it’s hard enough to find work, but when you have PBC listed as your college, it’s damn near impossible. If this blog can do anything I hope it’s help people avoid going to PBC!
And your stories NSQ and Nina shouldn’t surprise anyone by now. This blog has been in existence for 5 or 6 years, telling the same ‘ol story month after month after month. This is just what these people do. They use, abuse, and lie. The love you when you’re hot and ignore you when you are not. They are your best friend when you can continually feed the pot of gold but make you an outcast when your well dries up. There’s no reality with these people. The more fake you are the more you are loved.
Again everyone who is thiking about joining these programs should run far, far away from these places. Internship programs, PBC, conferences, hell even City Christian. These are not educational institutions. Get out of them and move on as quickly as you can.
[Comment ID #37520 Will Be Quoted Here]
Glad to know that there are programs that exist within the Christian community with enough integrity to keep the price and expectation going in realistic!
I think this is another major draw of the internship program. You get greater access to the church celebrity pastors. You pay them thousands of dollars and then you get to tell your other Christian friends that last Wednesday you spent the morning praying with Judah Smith.
On second thought, this is brilliant. I might try to get into this racket.
This summer I will be hosting the City Business Church Internship Program. We will meet on Tuesday and Friday nights for times of prayer and instruction. Specifically we will be praying that the Yankees cover the spread and I will be instructing on the finer points of drinking ten beers and still showing up to work the next day energized and alert.
[Comment ID #37550 Will Be Quoted Here]
The problem is that the goal is to become just like the City Church intern program. The reading includes books by Wendell Smith (Great Faith) and John Bevere (Under Cover).
Oh yeah, well I have a better deal for the ex-interns: how about they pay me half that, and we can spend every Wednesday morning letting the air out of Judah’s tires while he has his morning prayer meeting– then they can go tell all their ex-City Church buddies about that!
Thanks for pointing that out Eyes Open! I must have misunderstood what you meant. I was looking at the $750 price which is a little more realistic for an intern program so I completely missed the correlation! Sorry about that!!
Speaking of goals, the MFI Intern programs create an expectation that internship is the fast track to becoming like their senior pastors family (even if they couch it in becoming like Jesus and to work in the ministry) and then of course serving them (couching that as when you serve your pastor you are serving Jesus).
Also, whether they promise a position or not, there’s an understanding (at least on the part of the intern) that you will work at their churches or in another MFI church when you are done. The only thing is, most of the PAID positions are taken up with the pastor’s family or in-laws so there’s really no room for anyone who isn’t part of the first family court. That’s why in these family run businesses there’s really no place for the up and coming talent to go.
This is why my list from by earlier comment was specific to the goal of working in the churches – it’s insinuated from the get go that’s what the outcome will be:
I just heard that Dream Center down here in LA has started a new internship program that’s accredited through Patten University out of Oakland, CA. According to the site interns get 3 to 6 credits per semester at a cost of $250 per credit and can pay $1,000 per semester for room and board. So if an intern goes full-time, earns 12 credits for the year and pays room and board, they are out $5,000. Sounds pretty similar to The City Church’s program except Patten University is a more legitimate school than PBC and Dream Center interns actually do real ministry work in the local community (not just setting up chairs, handing out bulletins, checking people in at conferences, and running the laptop for power point presentations). Either way it seems like The City Church is once again trying to play with the big boys in hopes of becoming more nationally known. Must be tough for those guys always living in the shadows of big brother.
[Comment ID #37542 Will Be Quoted Here]
Would you be so kind as to elaborate on “San Diego Church” you refer to in your comment?
Probably the City Church in San Diego, pastored by Jerry McKinney.
http://thecitysd.org/mediaaudio/category.php?author=Pastor%20Jerry%20McKinney
I remember when Jerry McKinney left TCC to start that church… I totally forgot about him. That was back when TCC was at Kelsey Creek in Bellevue, approx. 1996. Wow.
[Comment ID #37566 Will Be Quoted Here]
Oh yes, Oh yes. Just another dusted off, revised version of “The Discipleship Movement” of the 1970s. Just as controlling and destructive. Get confused young people unsure of their future and teach them about how important “the local church” is rather than a relationship with God, marry them off young, get pregnant right away, and then take a survey in about 15 years and see that over half of them are divorced and not following the Lord anymore because of extreme disillusionment with the “local church.”
Do I sound bitter? Perhaps, a little. I’ve reconnected with a number of people whom I attended a Shepherding Movement Type Church with in the 1970s on Facebook. Many of them have repeated the scenario described above. I survived the discipleship movement only to have some of my children sucked up into the Internship program at TCC. One is out and another one is still in.
What He Said,
I only know it was the MFI church plant out of Seattle -the Pastor is married to
Gini Smith’s sister.
It started out good -we thought. A friend who’s two children joined the internship program and seemed to be very strong in the faith before they moved down there were deeply scared spiritually.
One is divorced as the survey says and the other one had a bad experience with controlling leadership and ended married to a non believer.
The parents did everything to go and talk to the leaders who constantly asked for prayer and support from the intercessors. Demanded might be more like it. It was up another level from Boise, or Seattle in demanding support from their people. I know Portland sent Jack Lowman and other down to try to “get them in shape.”
Our friends became alarmed as the church slid into the courtship thing, choosing who should marry who. This led to disaster upon disaster, but no one would listen. They had to leave eventually, but the toll it took is still ongoing. Another stellar success story am I right?
Julie
You don’t sound bitter you just sound honest! This is forum to be real.
Of course they won’t like it. They keep hoping we’ll all developed amnesia and go away. Sorry fellas. How can we help rescue people out of the mess they’re getting in if we don’t go in and carve away the wax from the real?
How many lives have to be destroyed by using the ” Don’t touch the Annointed Catch Phrase? Its in the ‘Controlling Cult Leader’s Guidebook’ under:
‘How to twist scripture for your own uses and win every argument’ section.
What is your Epic Dream??????????????
http://generationunleashed.com/campus/mill-plain/2010/04/14/whats-your-epic-dream/
God can use Juicy Couture????????
http://generationunleashed.com/my-gu-story/2010/03/09/my-gu-story-by-nancy/
[Comment ID #37572 Will Be Quoted Here]
The way the girl (who gave her the bracelet) behaved was creepy. I’m sure the gift somehow made the writer feel special, but what a convaluted way to be given a gift.
[Comment ID #37569 Will Be Quoted Here]
LOL! If i remember correctly THEY are the ones with AMNESIA. They are so good at forgetting that they can’t figure out why we don’t forget their bad behavior which they readily forget about as soon as they do something inappropriate. And it’s easy for them to forgive and forget when they can so easily forget people period. Out of sight out of mind is so the motto here,
Their take on forgive and forget must be: “I do forgive you my dear, and I’d like to forget you ever existed.”
So when lurkers harange us on how we need to forgive and forget, just remember that type of forgiveness is not so virtuous after all.
[Comment ID #37568 Will Be Quoted Here]I remember Jerry and Tami being in Portland, before they went to Seattle (?) I guess they went up there to be with Wendell Smith. I have listened to some of ‘pastor Jerry’s’ sermons online…..I only needed a couple to know it wasn’t anything I wanted to do with.
Your comment about sending Jack Louman to ‘straighten things out” made me LOL. I can remember some prayer meetings, he’d say stuff like, “as executive pastor of city bible church, I declare that God is going to”….fill in the blank. I wonder if he thought he had God over a barrel because of his position at the church?
Ha! Now that makes me laugh out loud! And brings back memories of lessons or “rebukes” given to us through prayer in the prayer room. They once had the pastors daughter talk to the intercessors through a prayer. It was fairly obvious what was going on –prepped by her mother before a noon prayer. Nice one!
We called it Prayer Reaching — total dysfunciton!
I guess God didn’t know Jack was the Executive Pastor of City Church?
And if so did it make a difference in his prayer? oh for a thousand tongues to sing!
[Comment ID #37573 Will Be Quoted Here]
So let me get this straight:
God will use this girl as a witness by inspiring her to hit on this other girl by giving her a fashion accessory and telling her she is beautiful?
To quote Wendell Smith: “That must be in the book of Hezekiah.”
Wow… that’s… deep?! Uh… I’m really confused… was that a testimony of the GU conference?
I was actually thinking about this very blog today.
It occurred when I was speaking to someone regarding the current state of the economy. We were discussing how students leaving college with engineering degrees used to be able to name their price; however, now they are literally competing for unpaid internship positions (which are now coming under scrutiny as Catalyst mentioned).
Think about it: you leave school with an engineering degree and you need to beg to work for free so that you could maybe get a foot in the door down the road when a job opens up. And these people actually know how to do something.
How do generation interns think they are going to compete against anyone? They must be counting on some serious divine intervention in their job search, being that they are essentially leaving this program only knowing how to get coffee for people like Judah Smith.
Ya i can hear it now. Um, I have a degree in kissing up to
famous pastors in the christian cultureauthority figures especially bosses.But I can kiss up to anyone. And I can learn fast. And I can start today– I can go to Starbucks right now for you if you’d like.
[Comment ID #37576 Will Be Quoted Here]
Good times Freeatlast, good times (NOT!)(this is when it would be nice for the amnesia to kick in)
Prayer Reaching: Hope you don’t mind if i re-spell that so our meaning won’t be missed:
Pr[ayer]eaching (the act of preaching in prayer)
Last but not least: Oh for a thousand tongues -ROTF LOL!
[Comment ID #37528 Will Be Quoted Here]
I honestly think there’s too many people who don’t really pray about stuff before they do it. Their buddies are going to ‘intern’ and they want to too! I think that’s where too many young people really go wrong. I’ve been wondering recently some of the same things. As a youth pastor, when kids ask you what they should do if they’re looking into the ministry as a viable option, what do you tell them? I think the problem is that too many guys WANT that GC-type church, so they tell their kids to go there without ever asking the more important question: where is God actually taking them?
I don’t think you can even judge the success or failure of the program based on who loved it and who didn’t; internships aren’t just about “what am I getting from this?” There’s a lot of things in our faith that we don’t like by nature, that’s why it takes discipline. At the same time though, when you create a “molding process,” you also create the other inherent problems like “everyone is different” (surprise, surprise, Christian leaders!), and not everyone is going to fit into that same mold, no matter how you poke and prod them. The people who don’t will end up crushed up, demoralized, and feeling inadequate because they “couldn’t hack it”. Then comes the disillusionment, disgust, lost faith, etc.
Honestly, I think that intern programs are awesome things in theory. I personally don’t look at the cost as a bad thing, although it would be awesome if it was less. I think the intership down @ Capitol Christian in Boise is around $2000, plus another $2000 for a trip to the National Prayer Center (optional, apparently). But I think it would behoove churches like TCC and CBC to take a look at their programs and see if there’s somewhere in there where they could either include more real “college credits” to supplement the educational process, (because it actually surprises me that it’s so expensive while having very little credits offered) or figure out a way to cut the cost by a bit, say, I don’t know…half?
I’m not one of those guys that gets up in arms about “making money off the gospel,” because I know that the Word talks about paying laborers, but I do think that we should be doing everything we can to make training as inexpensive as possible. Although, it could be expensive because kids these days only look at value based on price. So maybe that’s why it’s so bloody expensive: so that students don’t treat it like it’s not worth anything; they’re getting media, or worship, or evangelism, or preaching training from a church that’s on the “cutting edge” (or whatever) of church processes, and they want their students to realize that even if there’s no schooling, it’s still worth alot. Who knows?
PJD -
It’s good to hear a youth pastor’s perspective on the intern program and its costs. You seem to have a realistic and balanced view of what it should be. Just a few points in reference to what you said to clarify:
I think what we are asking is did they get what was promised to them, not just whether they liked it or not. Is the internship is serving them well in the years after.
I’m pretty sure the intern program is more like $4000 something at CCC, not just $2000. You could opt out of the trip, if you dared go against the flow, but you just didn’t have to raise money for the airfare and what they charge to stay at the NPC or a motel if they don’t want the kids sleeping there.
Of course, when I went to verify that on their website I couldn’t find anything on internship at all. Maybe they aren’t advertising or you can only apply if you are proven worthy first. I found that the CCC website isn’t too user friendly. (There are tabs to click on that don’t take you anywhere. Feels oddly familiar to what life was like when we were THERE!)
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Everyone on this site should respond to this…tell City Bible what your epic dream is…
Ok Detox -LOL again at your phraseology –that the tabs on their website that go no where felt oddly familiar as in what our experience was like. That describes it to a tee! A little Alice in Wonderland -like.
I’ve always said if you want to see what a church is like explore their website in depth. If you look up their ministries it is always revealing. The ones we’ve found from these groups are stretched to say uh …nursery…youth group…senior adults. We’re looking to see do you ever help the poor, or those less able to buy a new Lexus every year? Not funded through the church that is.
We know what we’ll hear –we’re not called to help the less fortunate. We’re called to the rich and prosperous and to lead the nation! Whoa! Its the job of that church across town to feed em. They like the riff raff over there. Its their calling.
Yea as in the gospel…….
And if you think I’m imagining things we all had to work the front desk and thats what we were directed to do ….send them down the street to the church that cared i.e. who’s calling it was. Uh huh.
and the story – stories – continue . . .
Stay tuned bcz the memories keep resurfacing. Just when we were trying to have amnesia. But the stories are rich, aren’t they? Our version of MTV.
holy cow…this (as a former pbc student) makes me want to barf.
The City Bible Church in Denver, Colorado is starting an intern program. Just thought I’d share.
Check out this MFI/TCC madness as it infiltrates Southern California.
http://thecitysd.org/calendar.php
Click on “Man Month” on the above website: http://thecitysd.org/calendar.php.
Oh, darn. We missed SPFD’s visit on the 6th.
Why, oh why, do they think they’re cool with their KIDZ spelling? Isn’t that a bit 90′s?
Don’t you mean 90′z?
Utilizing christianity to entice people to raise money for the “cause” , ready their propoganda and pay them nothing or pennies for their labor verges on cult like behavior.
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Like musicians? Seriously… I’m beginning to realize that charismatic church musicians have it hard… does a musician have to change church denominations to actually make it in their field? I found out that those who accompany at PBC are paid $15.00 for each student they accompany at the recitals and/or juries = and the students (accompanied ones) pay it, NOT the school or church. That’s great, but honestly, about a 10th of what they’d be paid by any other church or school. A friend of mine put HOURS into her prep as an accompaniment pianist. It’s insulting.
Ruthie Taylor– off topic question:
Is that your real name or did you happen to steal it from an off-Broadway musical? Just checking cause if that is your real name, then your name is in an off-Broadway musical
Didn’t PBC old schooler’s have the Wanna Be’s? All those aspiring students trained to be pastors waiting for their golden opportunity before they got too old and moved on? I don’t remember hearing about any placement stats for PBC graduates–maybe one in 100? PBC really was a denominational school churning out graduates for a specific type of church–but there wasn’t any openings and unless your calling was to be an Apostle / Pastor and you had the ability to start a church from scratch. The odds were that you would never be in full time ministry regardless of how powerful your presbytry prophecies were.
Yep, I can hear it now.
Before the student signs up:
“This is great for people wanting to be in the ministry. You’ll learn everything you need to know to fit right in here and move on up.”
… aka, “We want your money, and we’ll tell you what you want to hear.”
After graduation:
“You just need to wait on the Lord to open the door for you. You can’t rush God– He’ll tell you when it is the right time to find a job in the ministry.”
… aka, “We have your money, now get lost.”
We call PBC Portland Bridal College. Every female attendee from our congregation got a degree – an MRS. degree. The good side is that they married men of God who are serving the Lord. I don’t know if there is a bad side. We have two more who are there now – one just arrived. I’ll let you know if they have success as well. – grin -
The bad side is that twenty years from now, when their husbands start cheating with younger women, they will have wished they had a degree so that they could divorce their sorry a**es, instead of having nothing to fall back on since they figured they would be taken care of for the rest of their lives.
Not that all people end up cheating– that was just a (cynical) hypothetical. It’s just nice to have a little educational leverage in your corner, and not be too dependent on someone else’s credentials.
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One the reasons I’m going on to earn a secular degree. One of the predominant views is that you can’t work in the workplace and be a Christian. If you’re not involved with all your heart in the church’s ministries, then you’re not being used by God. A lot of lies! It’s been my absolute honor to reach out to people who, GASP, aren’t Christians – they’re the people who need to see that Christians can be great and fun and encouraging to work with… that we’re not all stuck up and proud.
I went to Portland Bridal College – learned a lot, grew in my relationship with the Lord, but also learned I couldn’t stand another year there. Didn’t meet my husband to be, but I’m content with that. I know I’m not supposed to be here all my life – and I’m not supposed to be in a church like this – God has my future somewhere else. I’m excited about that – and at the same time, nervous, because, who likes change?
I am going to get a proper education, though… one that can support me if I don’t end up marrying. I’m not going to expect something bad to happen, but you always want to be prepared. And, if anything, I’d like to have a job that will actually let me use my resources to reach others in a much more effective way than a limited income in ministry if God leads me elsewhere. Why limit the possibilities and the ways God can use you? Be prepared for anything!
It’s really an exciting time.
“”One of the predominant views is that you can’t work in the workplace and be a Christian. If you’re not involved with all your heart in the church’s ministries, then you’re not being used by God. A lot of lies! “”
Agreed: I was born again in my 20′s and really saw this after I got saved. But God showed me something in the bible that I do not think is taught enough. Paul the Apostle with the impossible mission who planted numbers of churches and challenged the Church Leadership of the day (Peter and James) who in his spare time wrote 1/2 the NT. Busy guy! HAD A DAY JOB!
He was a tent maker/sales man. As he traveled he spent a good amount of time making and selling tents in each location.
It showed me that not being in “Full Time” ministry was as important or in some cases more important then those who are.
In retrospect I’m betting you are glad you DIDN’T meet him there!
Wise girl! I love your thought on why limit the possibilities and ways God can use you! Seasons will come and pass and he will lead you through them all, and your life will be a blessing in each one!
A wiser character I met in a house church meeting pointed out 1 Thess. 4:11-12, “Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you; so that you may behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.” I like to think of this as good “Apostolic Doctrine”. American Christianity has far to many people riding around on silver stallions, and not nearly enough who are willing to be everyday type of folks who can relate to peoples needs where they live.
WhatHeSaid: Agreed, you have a sound and healthy understanding of Christianity in my honest opinion (IMHO)
Here’s another girl who went to PBC and did not meet her husband there. I would rather hang myself with the celibate rope than be married to a ridiculously immature, insecure church boy who parrots everything he hears and does not own his faith and seeks a position in MFI and all about getting a power trip and Pharisee-like. Do I want to marry him and then have the cookie cutter Christian family? And do I want to be a stepford wife? Hell no. I think they are imitating the cultural pattern of the Orange County housewife instead of biblical values.
I want a mature, responsible, intelligent man, who can think for himself, seeks God and has a true relationship with Christ. And intellect is sexy as long as he isnt arrogant about it. Any guy who can discuss intellectual topics, attractive and loves Christ will always get my attention.
I left that place and have an education and career. I have no regrets. BTW there are better Christian men and women outside the PBC world. Unless you want to marry MFI clones do not bother finding your spouse at Portland Bridal College. It’s overrated
Okay my last para may make me sound harshly judgmental but I’m mostly talking about my PBC class. They were very immature and obnoxious and if you were there with me that you’d know what I mean.
When I said “better Christian men and women” I meant believers who dont fit the stereotypical mold. There were a few PBCers who are genuine and sincere but they were the exceptions.
I don’t know if you are aware that you just quoted “Bust a Move“, by Young MC:
You’re on a mission and you’re wishin’
someone could cure you’re lonely condition
You’re lookin for love in all the wrong places
Not fine girls just ugly faces
From frustration first inclination
Is to become a monk and leave the situation
But every dark tunnel has a lighter hope
So don’t hang yourself with a celibate rope
Yes, I am aware of that. I was hoping someone here would recognize it. I like the line “hang myself with the celibate rope”
This would be a first.
I know two people, they both are at the different ends of the age spectrum, who are going through this “program”. Both have issues of “being accepted” or low self esteem. I’ve tried to talk to them about what is so attractive about City Church, both have this glazed over look in their eyes when talking about Judah this, Judah that, Judah, Judah did this, Judah said that, Judah, Judah, Judah—I said wow,,,,does Jim Jones mean anything to you? My friends who I love dearly can EASILY be lead astray with attention!! I might know how Adam felt, he may not have been able to talk Eve out of what she was about to do!! All we can do is pray once the scales come off our friends eyes there wont be too much damage. For those who like me have friends caught up in the hype once it’s over just be there for them.
The intern program is amazing and life changing I’m hopefully gonna do it overthe summer.
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I’ve got a better deal for you. My car hasn’t been washed in months and I hate doing laundry. Wanna pay me $5,000 and I’ll let you do it for me?
God told me you should.
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There’s nothing biblical that says i should do that haha and Gos already spoken to me about interns through his word and people in my life
One of the things you’ll learn someday, APS, is that God will let you chase your tail if that’s what your flesh is burning to do.
Only the Lord can give you the living water.
Men, such as those you want to intern for, can’t.
Give the kid a break.. he is a teen who sounds new to loving and serving God. Don’t forget we were all there once. Most all of us are old enough to be his/her parent. Of COURSE we have insight he has not gotten yet in his life.
As Thumper said.. “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.”
(I’ll just apply that in this case to APS
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Thanks and I’m a she by the way! And I e been serving the lord for 4 years btw. Why do you guys have a problem with TTc and interns
It is so rare when I see a young person, having been touched by the Lord, saved, forgiven, baptized, that they remain with the Lord. Most upon salvation share their joy and the admonition they hear from other is “you need to find a good church now and be taught” …
Why do so few remain with the Lord, who teaches us? As it says in 1 John 2:27 :
Do we believe the scripture or not? Do we look to the Lord to teach us by the Holy Spirit or not?
Most receive their salvation from Jesus, then make a bee-line for a man to teach them, (read: FRESH MEAT) and thereby become “sons of hell” by all the religious bondage men will heap upon the new convert.
Heck, even scripture paints the picture of that – in Revelation. The woman gives birth (spirit) and that old serpent (religion) is poised to eat her offspring as soon as it is born. Consider that Revelation 18 pleads to the people of the Lord to “come out of her, my people” (18:4) and near the end of the chapter, condemns the whore (of religion) saying “the blood of prophets and saints was found IN you” – in other words – their very lives were consumed by the beast/whore.
Give the kid a break? Say nothing while the kid is chewed up by religion?
Fast forward 10 years, and APS will be just another “bitter” CBC blogger, burned by MFI / spiritual abuse and false doctrine.
How sad.
APS: I used to attend TCC for years btw. The intern program is an abuse of of the people who want to serve God the most. I think a better use of such a program would be going out into Seattle and helping people who are lost come to Christ then emptying the garbage in TCC on Saturdays.
And why do they make you pay for such a garbage emptying privilege?
I’m gonna be praying for you guy. It’s kind of said that you guys have an offense when God had every right to be mad and upset with Euchone of us but instead gave us freedom. Jesus forgave us so why cant you guys forgive who ever offended you. Instead of talking bad about them on some site confront them, then let it go
Oh, I forgot to mention: When someday you find that you cannot listen to one more sermon on how God exists for your benefit… Try, just try to confront the preacher.
Besides that Matthew 18 is for personal relationships and offenses. It does not apply to public preaching. When the message is public, the rebuke can be public as well.
Agreed Anna: APS read Paul’s rebuke of Peter.
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Steve Meistrell has had years to sharpen his skills at cracking the whip. I met that man 23 years ago and became part of his youth group. It seems not a lot has changed. He and his wife used me to take care of their three young children often and NEVER paid me. As a parent now, I find this inconceivable!! He was a domineering and ungrateful man. His own wife, years later apologized to me and said “at least you are not married to the man”.
A & E – sorry that happened to you. Once again free labor done at the expense of an impressionable youth. From what we hear their church is just a mini – me of Capital Christian Center which was a mini-me of City Bible Temple.
Parents need to step forward and ask what is it they are allowing their children to get involved with. I wish I had asked more questions. Of course once you do wake up and smell the coffee you realize you are standing in line for your exit papers.
I don’t know how long you’ve been reading this blog but we hope our questions and analysis of what caused the dysfunciton and abuse will help to heal your wounds because believe me you weren’t alone. He was particularly cruel. I know people who have found it unbelievably hard to get over his abuse.
It always reminded me of Himmler or is it Goebells as I read stories on the Nazis. Just saying…..
Thanks for sharing and you’ll find by telling your stories it helps to heal them because this is one place where believe me we get it!
One more thing just like the Nazis – Hitler turned on him too like you wouldn’t believe. Interesting how the very leader they being the henchman for suddenly
turns on them like a pack of dogs. If only they could learn from it.
A & E – I agree with Freeatlast – we are so glad you are here and hope you benefit from what has turned out to be an online support group for some of us MFI prosperity driven church survivors! Even though there are lots of different cities and scenarios represented, seems like we all have the goal of true spiritual health and freedom in reacquainting ourselves with the Jesus we originally asked into our hearts. The essence of Jesus was so misrepresented in our former churches – they twisted Christianity into something it was never meant to be.