Dear Pastors:
You are currently faced with a positive opportunity. The most reviled organization in the US is about to protest at your church, providing you a rare chance to separate yourself from the vile idealogy of Westboro Baptist. As a church, you alienated yourself from the gay community in Portland with your staunch opposition to gay marriage. I’m not sure why you felt it necessary to spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours at the pulpit keeping gays from being in committed relationships, but you did.
Unfortunately for you, City Bible is not located in Tuscaloosa, where this type of message might resonate with the community. Your church is located in progressive and gay-friendly, Portland, Oregon. Furthermore, gay marriage is a generational issue. The polling shows that the vast majority of young people support gay marriage. Your stance on this issue only further divides you from the youth in America. In 20 years gays will be allowed to be married. And your church will either be filled with young people who appreciate your message of love and compassion, or your church will be a nursing home filled with elderly Christians who believe that being a Christian means driving a Bentley and being a Republican.
I am fully aware of the verses in the Bible condemning homosexuals. However, I’m also aware of all the verses condemning people for eating seafood, and the verse against woman speaking in church, and the verses about the wonders of castration. The Bible is a big book; it’s got a lot of verses. However, when Christ was asked to sum up the Bible, he didn't say, “Be obsessed with other people’s sexuality.” He said, “Love your neighbor as yourself and Love the lord your God with all your heart and mind and soul.” And let’s be honest, that’s really what it’s all about.
You have a choice. You can continue this path toward irrelevancy, or you can inject some much needed passion and excitement into your church and take a stand on an issue that doesn’t involve the Republican Party or a new flat screen TV. And yeah, you will lose the folks who are still hung-up on homosexuality. But you know what, good riddance. The church needs more Christians who love their neighbor and fewer who are worried about what their neighbor does in bed.
Do the right thing, CBC. And in twenty years, you’ll look back and be proud.
Sincerely,
Your Future Church
If only your challenging letter was on the front page of the Willamette Week bcz that may be the only way the City Bible Church powers that be see it since part of the MFI rules probably include a signed vow to never go to the CBC Blog!(unless you sent them a hard copy in the mail or unless one of their lurkers passes it along).
But, you never know. 100 kudos for putting it out there!
We all need to remember this – you said it so well:
Indeed.
wait, so because of a poll the church is supposed to change its stance and beliefs on a biblical issue that is clearly laid out? The church doesn’t adapt and change to fit degrading society (your poll is a prime example) it stands as a light to the truth of Jesus Christ and the good news. Homosexuality is plainly laid out as a sin, as christians it’s not even a debate and any christian that says it’s not a sin is incredibly deceived or carnal and i would seriously question there salvation. That being said, God hates the sin and not the sinner, we should reach out to those deceived by the sin of homosexuality but we do not condone, accept their sinful actions.
Amen.
I’ve said this before but I believe its true, Homosexuality is the modern day Leprosy (in respect to how they are treated). Its saddens me to see “Christians” work so hard to regulate laws against homosexuals and not do a damn thing to love them.
Much like we do here with City Bible Church. God hates CBC’s sin but doesn’t hate CBC.
We are doing the Lord’s work on this blog as we reach out to those deceived by the Business Church…and yet we REFUSE to condone their sinful actions.
Catalyst you are a shining example to Christians around the world. Thank you.
Yeah, considering that we have the original translation of these books, as well as an understanding of the full concepts and points of view that these words were spoken from… uh, not so much.
But feel free to be a literalist– it certainly makes life a whole lot more easier when you don’t have to think about things.
[Comment ID #37721 Will Be Quoted Here]
By your own argument we have to toss the entire Bible. So what do you actually believe in?
I have read this site for the past couple of years now. It has brought understanding and healing from reading about similar experiences from others, Thank you.
But I find this blog very disturbing.
“Furthermore, gay marriage is a generational issue.”
Yeah, and it was a generational issue thousands of years ago when Jesus destroyed Sodom over men lusting for men. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. He’s not changed his mind about homosexuality.
This is more than just eating sea food.
Only a deceived fool would use that as an excuse, seriously.
“However, when Christ was asked to sum up the Bible, he didn’t say, “Be obsessed with other people’s sexuality.†He said, “Love your neighbor as yourself and Love the lord your God with all your heart and mind and soul.†And let’s be honest, that’s really what it’s all about.
When the woman was caught in Adultery (Jn 8) Jesus said “go and sin no more”.
Jesus did not minister mercy/love at the expense of truth, never.
Is Jesus obsessed with sex in the sense of what people do with it? After all he created it when He created Adam & Eve, not Adam & Adam btw.
Let’s let Jesus speak for himself about sexual immorality.
Rv 2:21-23
“I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality and she did not repent.
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
I will kill her children with death,
and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts.”
Jesus hates sexual sin, be it a “lifestyle of adultery/ fornication between man and woman or man and man.
Yes Jesus does forgive, will we repent?
This is more than just an Old Testament thing.
Romans 1:26-32
Men leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful.
Jeff and Joe, I totally understand your points, but I think you somewhat miss what cat is saying. Lay aside for a moment what the Bible says about homosexuality, and for argument’s sake, think of LGBT rights in general.
It is true that in this generation those rights are close to being accepted by general society. It is also true that it has been an issue that has polarized people, leaving orthodox Christianity championing righteousness against the general society.
I’m not really sure that’s the battle we (the orthodox) wish to fight. Because when Christianity becomes synonymous with anti-gay activism, we’ve lost our identity. People will not listen to the gospel message at all because this issue has become a stumbling block.
Look at the words of Paul. He said he preached “Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” His letters exhorting righteous behavior were to Christians, not to the world. The words of Jesus quoted from Revelation were likewise to people in the church.
If I read cat’s words correctly (and I’m sure he will correct me if I am not)
, he is basically encouraging the church to return to “keeping the main thing the main thing.”
Incorrect.
Just think for yourself and consider more than just words and their literal meanings. Oftentimes, what we think they mean and what they actually were meant to mean are not one in the same. Context matters.
It is your responsibility as a reader of this book to do more than just read a word in english and think that it means the same thing it did 2,000+ years ago, in a far off land, in a different language, and for a different people.
Oh, and I call no “God gave me divine inspiration to understand it” arguments, if and when you respond.
Anna, I do respect the wisdom you have shown here and it’s appreciated and maybe I am reading more into what cat said.
“I’m not really sure that’s the battle we (the orthodox) wish to fight. Because when Christianity becomes synonymous with anti-gay activism, we’ve lost our identity. People will not listen to the gospel message at all because this issue has become a stumbling block.”
I can agree with this statement.
………………………………………
“Look at the words of Paul. He said he preached “Jesus Christ and Him crucified.†His letters exhorting righteous behavior were to Christians, not to the world.”
….
True, Paul was speaking to Christians in the Church in his Roman letter but he was speaking about a generational issue that was taking place in the world.
With homosexuals we are talking about a very small segment of society who always inflate their numbers. They have wealth and influence and propagate or promote their lifestyle.
It’s more than just let’s not be concerned about what they do in bed with each other.
We now see the Lutheran and Episcopal Church accepting and ordaining homosexual ministers within their denominations.
They want acceptance that their lifestyle is normal in society. It is not, it is abnormal behavior and a detriment to our own families and nation.
They want rights that God has never given them and never will, marriage.
The question I ask is
“What is anti-gay activism and what is taking a stand against something the Bible clearly speaks against?
How so? Your relations with your wife/girlfriend/your-none-of-my-business-anyways-person doesn’t pose a threat to my family in the slightest, no matter what you happen to be doing with them. I find it bewildering that someone’s actions, that don’t involve you in the slightest, can rattle the foundations of your family and our country.
Hold on, let’s actually think about that: Someone that you don’t even know, somewhere in this vast country, might be cuddling with someone of the same sex… and that is supposed to destroy my family and country?
And did someone say that Jesus destroyed Sodom? Last time I checked, Jesus didn’t destroy much of anything. And regarding Jesus telling someone not to be an adulterer had nothing to do with homosexuality. Therefore, please point out to me where Jesus (yes, Jesus himself) decided that a good use of his last three years on earth was to go around telling people where they should and shouldn’t stick things (yes, those things). I just fail to see Jesus, hanging from a cross, wishing he would have amended his “love thy neighbor” message with an “oh, and tell those gays to quit that gay stuff, too.”
Please allow me to digress…
But first He ran off all the “Right Wing Republicans” for their attempt at condemning her.
I find the majority of Christian’s responses to homosexuality to be hypocritcal. Why is the church so involved in fighting the gays and yet do so little when it comes to divorce (or any other sin for that matter)?
And why doesn’t “the church” do anything to show that they love Homosexuals?
(btw, excellent comment, Anna).
” JoeAmerica said:
it [homosexuality] is abnormal behavior and a detriment to our own families and nation.
How so?
I’m agreeing with what God calls homosexuality.
Vile passions, Romans 1:26
I personally could care less what they do in private. It’s when they promote their lifestyle as normal and want rights for a “vile” lifestyle that I say NO.
This is more than just dietary sin as the original blogger suggested.
“And did someone say that Jesus destroyed Sodom? Last time I checked, Jesus didn’t destroy much of anything”
JESUS is GOD, The I AM. HE was there.
“Therefore, please point out to me where Jesus (yes, Jesus himself) decided that a good use of his last three years on earth was to go around telling people where they should and shouldn’t stick things (yes, those things).
I’ll repeat myself.
Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more.
Jesus never ministered love at the expense of truth.
If God is calling homosexuality “vile passions”
Why do you call it acceptable?
Joe?
Why do you hate homosexuality more than any other sin?
It seems a little elementary to interchangeably swap out Jesus for God, then over to the Holy Spirit. Jesus led the Israelites out of Egypt; Jesus in the Garden of Eden with Adam; the Holy Spirit broke bread at the Last Supper?
I seem to recall the Bible assigning actual specific nouns to these characters—don’t you think you are stretching it saying that Jesus leveled Sodom? If you believe that the Bible is the inspired and infallible Word of God, then don’t you think you should keep the context correct, especially for very specific, non-ambiguous events? Just because the Bible mentions the Trinity, does that mean you get free reign to switcheroo these characters whenever you want?
Answering your question: I call it acceptable because it is pretty much common knowledge that homosexuality is not choice, but instead is biological; therefore, they deserve the same respect as anyone else. Johnpaul made an excellent point– where is the condemnation of divorce? In terms of Biblically accepted reasons for divorce, most people are considered adulterers forever after. Why not rail against that for a while, after all, that IS a choice?
Edit: ‘elementary school-ish’, not ‘elementary’
This is such an excellent thread. I’m really glad Cat brought all this up.
We Christians really do need to look hard at what we believe and why, and what kind of fruit comes from our belief system. How we handle the homosexuality issue is becoming a defining line on what kind of Christian each of us aims to be. How did this one issue garner such power? We didn’t ask for this – it’s been forced upon us from both the hardline fundamentalists types AND the gay community. Both sides think they are entitled to tell us how to think.
Cat’s challenge to love our neighbors instead of obsessing over sexuality is the first glimmer of hope I’ve come across in how to deal with this issue. I have gay relatives and acquaintences who I want to extend an arm of friendship to in an authentic real way, because they are individuals in need of a savior, but this dividing line is the question mark looming between us. I don’t know if they could ever receive my friendship, though, because if they ask me what I think about what the Bible says about homosexuality, it will force me to make an issue of it. If I ignore it altogether they will think I think just like them which could eventually be a problem. I’ve been praying how to bridge the gap and not make MY beliefs the focus. In the end, I may have to appeal to their ability to agree to disagree on certain subjects. But, I will need to be able to do the same thing and let it rest on my end as well.
I do know one thing, Anna reminds us that we lose our true identity as Christians when we join forces with militants who choose to make the letter of the word of God a fight. If there needs to be a fight, it should be about returning the image of Christ to his original state and denouncing whatever this is that seems to have replaced him.
I think it’s time that Christians like us get more press. I hope in the upcoming years the true voice of Christianity will be rediscovered and understood. I hope more articles, blogs, and books will be published differentiating between the two types of Christianity. I hope music and movies are made that artistically show that difference. I think it’s time for the focus to be taken away from Christians who choose not to love and who use Christ as a means to their own gain (I’m digressing toward the money making faith preachers now).
I must say, the god of this world has done an excellent job of distorting the truth by diverting the focus from the grace and love of Christ (which is where the true power lies) and thus tarnishing his image so people are confused about Christ’s true mission to the world. Think about WHO he is using as pawns to do that?
[Comment ID #37738 Will Be Quoted Here]
I don’t and I don’t reject the homosexual. (nice diversionary tactic btw, attack the person who does not agree with you.)
Sexual sin is just that whether it be
man and woman or man and man.
Why does the OP or blogger here equate O.T. dietary laws with sexual sin as if it’s just a minor thing to be ignored.
…………………………………………………
“I call it acceptable because it is pretty much common knowledge that homosexuality is not choice, but instead is biological;”
………………………………………………..
The Bible clearly calls it a choice.
“women exchanged (it takes choice to do this)
the natural use for what is against nature.
Likewise also the men, “leaving” the natural use of the woman burned in lust for one another.
You have got be a total fool and call God a liar to believe that it’s biological when God calls is a vile passion. There is no scientific proof that it is biological.
……………………………………………….
As far as the use of the name of Jesus instead of using the title God. So what?
The Godhead was there and in full agreement.
…………………………………………………
And what does divorce have to do with any of this? They are different sins.
Pulling out divorce is just a smoke job to divert a topic in another direction.
If you want to talk about divorce start another blog.
I believe that we should minister in love to the homosexual to overcome their sin.
But first that have to admit it’s sin.
I have found for the most part that those bound in homosexuality faced
Hatred and rejection toward their father.
Loss of personal identity.
Mother ran the family.
Had a life dominated by rejection.
All had poor relationships with their Father
All had problems of sexual identity at an early age.
Rebellion is the element that turned them toward homosexuality.
Rejection became a driving force to find acceptance in the same sex.
Joe, let me tell you a personal story that may explain how I, as a theologically orthodox Christian came to decide how to respond to the LGBT community.
When the Oregon measure to amend the constitution to define marriage as 1 man + 1 woman was in campaign, CBC was on the forefront of its support. I attended a public forum that featured a proponent (a CBC member) and a dissenter (a member of the local equal rights org — can’t remember their name).
The only thing that I remember from this discussion is an audience question from one young man who identified himself as gay. He asked the CBC person, “Why do you hate us so much?” Behind his question was true anguish. It was not asked in a confrontive manner.
That question rent my heart and brought tears to my eyes when I realized that before him stood a representative of the Lord Jesus Christ and His church, and yet what this young man perceived was hatred.
To be fair, the CBC rep. was kind, and did not rail against the young man, but said something to the effect that the measure was not about individuals but the definition of the law, etc.
Still, I determined in myself at that point, that I did not want that issue to be what defined me as a Christian. But I wanted to exhibit the character of Christ, aided by the Holy Spirit as best as I am able. To some, Jesus extended mercy, and to others He spoke truth — as was needed in each individual situation. That is still my prayer.
Yes, the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin. But then so is idolatry. But I will not be lobbying for a new ballot measure that outlaws the worship of idols any time soon. Instead, I will pray that the gospel will reach the lost, and that they will forsake their sin (whatever it may be) as the Holy Spirit convicts them and gives them grace to change.
ps, Detox, I will pray for you.
Joe— we could talk science all you want, but the fact is that I am sure your definition of science is quite different than mine. After all, I could bring forth all the evidence in the world for observed homosexuality in other creatures across the globe, and you would still deny the relevance of that information. Indeed, Emperor Penguins need to repent of these “choicesâ€.
It is also difficult to discuss biology without the mechanism of evolution, and I believe I have an idea of your stance on that as well. Therefore, we are at an impasse. Also, I believe I am in the minority when I say that I do not cling to every word of the Bible literally, and would instead defer to scientific reason when it comes to such matters. Perhaps being ignorant and afraid of homosexuality makes a lot of sense when you transport yourself back into the days of the Bible—not so much anymore.
Well said Anna – I’m with you on that! (and THANK you for the prayer! This situation has been worrying me for a long time now)
Well we’ve done it again. Another long discussion on gay marriage. I suspect an abortion battle will be showing up anytime now.
JoeAmerica, I commend you on debating with a civil tone and sharing your points with some intellect rather then the usual “you all are just bitter idiots.” Those get very old. And for the most part I can understand and get the points you have shared. However there is one part where you lost me…
This my friend I cannot agree with, even in the slightest. There is no such thing as different sins. Sin is sin. There is no scale, no level of horrible vs. acceptable…every wrongful, evil, ugly, despicable action and thought is sin. That is why we are all sinners. There is no one whose done right by God; all righteous acts from sinners are filthy in His sight. And I challenge you to show me my error on this, show me anything where Jesus Himself said one sin is worse then another. No the sin of divorce is just as harmful, damaging, and disgusting to God as the sin of homosexuality. Walk into any church and you will find dozens of people who are divorced, getting a divorce, or are OK with divorce. But ask those same churches about homosexuality and you will find almost no one who would say they are homosexual or approve of homosexuality. And that is the point being made. The church has lost it’s way in that by focusing all it’s attention on legislating homosexuality it’s made itself irrelevant in popular culture and less and less people are going to church these days because of it.
So I think that’s why Cat wrote the letter. As he stated, CBC has a choice to continue on the very same path of irrelevancy or they can inject some new life into their congregation by taking a stand against Westboro Baptist Church, telling them that what they are doing is wrong. I don’t see that kind of stand as supporting gay marriage, but rather as fighting back against dumb ass ignorant bullies who are fighting a lost cause.
By the way, you might enjoy our last discussion on this topic from last year. Lots of the same debate on gay marriage NOT accepted by the church because it is strongly opposed in the Bible even though divorce IS accepted within the church even though it too is strongly opposed in the Bible. Check it out.
http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blogblog/2009/10/27/ban-divorce-to-protect-marriage/
“There is no such thing as different sins. Sin is sin.”
Yeah, ok, I agree. I think I am thinking they are different topics of discussion.
As far as divorce is concerned, many faiths will remarry and ordain those who were divorced, as they say, “before the cross”.
My belief is the the cross points both ways in the power of reconciliation, before and after.
But that’s another discussion.
“I believe I am in the minority when I say that I do not cling to every word of the Bible literally,”
Must be nice to pick and choose what you believe or excuse me choose to believe.
………………………………………………….
“would instead defer to scientific reason when it comes to such matters.
So what happens or what are you going to do when and if science changes it’s position?
It’s been known to happen.
Yeah – they change their position when there is verifiable evidence that supports doing so. That is the difference between science and religion – science allows for change when the evidence shows that there is another truth or that what we believed before was “wrong” or not as accurate…religion doesn’t allow for any change whatsoever. The crazy thing is that those who are religious tend to think that that is a strength when really it is a huge weakness. Changing one’s opinion based on new facts and evidence is not something to be mocked – that way lies ignorance and prejudice.
[Comment ID #37751 Will Be Quoted Here]
Wow, thanks for doing the leg work for me! I couldn’t have said it any better!
It is actually great to be able to do so. It goes along with the rest of my life quite nicely. I pick and choose things everyday, from what to eat for lunch, all the way down to what laws to follow (I usually follow most laws, with a few exceptions–I roll stop signs). I also choose who and what to believe when I hear people’s opinions, stories, etc.
For example, the Bible as a group of stories. I certainly view them as open to a certain contextual form of interpretation– I don’t believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word (there are errors if you want to comb through it); therefore, I have to ask myself questions regarding what I would take at face value, and what I should ask questions about.
You may choose to believe God got into people’s heads and made them go get a pen. I believe they were normal people writing about God. We both made these choices regarding what we believe. I used to believe the first one, but that doesn’t make sense to me anymore, not to mention, my blood pressure and anxiety level are much lower nowadays.
Asking questions is good. Coming up with answers is good. Making decisions is good.
Matricks, why is your blood pressure and anxiety level lower because you stopped believing God inspired the Bible? I don’t get the connect.
Also, I get the feeling you think that people who do believe in Biblical inspiration don’t ask questions or come up with answers? Is that accurate?
Lastly, do you even want to have this conversation, or would you prefer to move on?
[Comment ID #37741 Will Be Quoted Here]Excellent post! I couldn’t have said it as well.
I also think that preachers who rant and rail about the social ills in our country actually need to create an ‘enemy’ so they can be the ‘leader’ and rally the troops. If too many find out that Christ is the ‘Leader’, why are they needed?
My blood pressure was lowered because the path of least resistance never flows toward absolutism. Usually when people speak of God inspiring something in the Bible, it becomes absolute–after all, what is more absolute than what God has to say about a subject?
I believe that many people who do believe in an inspired Bible do ask questions. However, the person I was discussing it with did not seem like that type, hence the context of my comment.
Lastly, I certainly enjoy having this conversation! Most people on here are quite thoughtful, and I enjoy having people to exchanging these ideas with.
My daughter who is studying psych. says that I’m an absolutist (not just in a religious sense). So believing that God inspired the Bible is not stressful for me. But that begs the question, do I believe in biblical inspiration because it’s comfortable to do so?
So does that make it more stressful for you because you are not? Or are all these psych labels just hooey? Questions… hmmm…
Yeah, I’m not an absolutist, which is why I probably tend toward that view of the Bible– or it jives more with what I consider to be logical in my own mind, etc. It would certainly make sense for you to then feel comfortable with your view, as that is your personality, just the non-absolutist view makes sense to mine.
However, all that being said, perhaps you are more of an open-minded absolutist than most. This line doesn’t sound like a hard-liner to me:
By the way, I am intending that as a compliment–hope it comes across that way!
You do bring up good points, and again, I must state how I appreciate the thoughtful nature of the majority of the people here, you being one such example. There seems to be a nice array of varying views being expressed, but the way in which most people handle themselves civilly is probably what is most refreshing.
I will meditate upon your question, and hopefully come up with a good response soon, when I am less inundated with other things!
P.S. I am absolutist in my belief that most of that psychology business is “hooey”… definitely, maybe
I remember when as a freshman my teacher made the statement, “there is no such thing as absolutes”.
I asked him if that was an absolute statement.
Well aaaaaactually ma, absolutist is a Philosophy term referring to your beliefs about ethics you’ve formed over your life. Not a psychology term for a personality trait or the way you are or somethin like that. I do believe though that certain types of people would lean towards absolutism. For lots of reasons.. and I think a lot of things we choose to believe are becaues they’re comfortable for us for some reason or another.. And yes a lot of psych stuff is hooey. But not all of it!
Thanks for correcting me, checkmarks… my ignorance is showing. You’ll have to explain more (over coffee).
And thanks, matricks, for the compliment. I’ve been thinking about the subject, too. So far, I’ve come to this conclusion: I think the subject of biblical inspiration and inerrancy basically comes down to a decision — do I believe or not?
It’s a seminal decision, because whatever I decide about that one question, dictates an entire spiritual path, and I can pretty much see the destination of each choice. When faced with the question myself, I thought about it for months.
And then I made my choice. I decided which destination I preferred, and so far, I have not been sorry. Did my choice turn me into an absolutist? Maybe, but I guess I better get a better handle on definitions before I apply them, LOL.
I read a few comments, but not all, so forgive me if this has already been said. It could stand to be repeated anyway.
The issue at hand is not the right or wrong nature of homosexuality. Whether or not it is a sin is irrelevant in this matter. Everyone, even the ‘best’ Christians are guilty everyday of sin to some degree or another.
The church as a general body mostly promotes that you cannot be Christian and homosexual by alienating the homosexual community.
The bottom line is that the church, CBC included, doesn’t get to pick and choose which sins are OK as long as you believe and which aren’t. No one is meant to be defined by their sin; all are defined at the depths of their souls by the love that God has for them regardless of lifestyle.
Christians certainly aren’t defined as such by the lack of sin in their lives, we are Christians because we are inevitably, mercifully, and wonderfully forgiven.
Well said, Lady.
My wife and I have been talking this week about how much time is wasted by the church fighting the gays. What would happen if the church put the same about of time and resources into fighting Human Trafficking or someother cause.
We might actually make a difference…
And yet, Paul also right after “Christ and Him crucified” that the gospel is, in fact, “to jews a stumbling block, and to Greeks, foolishness.”
1 Peter 2:8 And, “He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they do not obey God’s word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them.
It’s not the church’s responsibility to be acceptable to everyone. The message of the Gospel is both freeing AND binding. Those who accept the cross of Christ also must live worthy of it. I’m not talking about living by the law, but there is truth in understanding that the Cross doesn’t just cover sin, it’s supposed to transform lives.
I tend to view homosexuality slightly different from many Christians. I view it as a sexual sin much like any other sexual sin. If I saw a man in my church continually in sin against his wife, or just sleeping around all the time, my natural reaction as a brother in Christ isn’t to “grace him” until he turns from his sin. My reaction is to confront him in love, and if he doesn’t receive it, go to him with a close friend, and then an elder, and then THE elders, etc.
I do believe that the church does need to take a more accepting stance towards non-Christian homosexuals in order to lead them to truth, because the bottom line is that you can’t change someone’s values by simply trying to place them under the law, they are changed by the power of the Cross.
My struggle with the issue of homosexuality is mostly this: I hear many homosexuals say “I was born this way,” and I hear about all kinds of studies that have inconclusive results about whether people are born gay or straight. If there is inconclusive or non-existent evidence of”homosexual by DNA” then it becomes just like any other sexual sin that the church stands against, such as infidelity, pre-marital sex, pornography, etc. If the church decides to make a massive exception for gays, why not guys that can’t stay committed to their wives? Or likewise, women who can’t seem to stay in their own marital bed?
But the church doesn’t take the same stand agains infidelity, pre-marital sex, pornography…Where are the rally’s and picket lines and ballot measures to prevent any of those things?
Its a double standard…and a bullshit one at that.
What church are we talking about? Because any church I’ve been to goes through the process I lined out and also the standard that Paul lines out in 1 Corinthians 5:5. What I’m saying is that there’s a total difference between someone who struggles with sin, ie, is trying to change and move forward, and someone who refuses to change.
What I was getting at is that a husband, lets say, who cheats on his wife, repents, and suffers through the consequences of his actions, i.e., possible divorce, etc., or the restoration process back to his wife, and is then in turn restored to the church is a totally different situation than a guy who perpetually lives in sin and flaunts his promiscuity, owing to the fact that he was “born that way”. Again, I don’t know what churches you’ve been to, but in my church, there’s a difference between people who are genuinely repentant and those who are reprobate and proud of it.
For my part, that’s how I think churches should view this issue. People coming in and struggling with homosexuality shouldn’t be “damned” because they struggle with something. Unfortunately, many churches do have a “leprosy” view of homosexuality, which I think is bollocks, but that doesn’t mean that we should say “well…people do cheat on their wives/husbands, so I guess we should make homosexuality ok too.” It means we take a HARDER stance against the other sins as well, rather than “watering down the wine” to make everybody happier.
As for the “picket lines and ballot boxes”, I’ll be honest with you when I say that I struggle with the idea of the church being overly involved in the political process. I sway back and forth on whether the church should be more involved in politics, or should focus more on reaching culture and less about imposing morality on people who don’t have Jesus. I tend to see it in the same light as drinking non-alcoholic beer: it’s just not worth it. Maybe I’m wrong. Who knows?
Your right, and that’s the point! It is just like any other sin but the church doesn’t treat it that way. They treat it like the greatest sin, and that is why there is a problem.
Who says the church should make an exception for gays? Correct me if I’m wrong but I think the consensus is that the church should preach that we should stand against sin in the church, ALL sin. The argument is that the church shouldn’t just focus on this one sin and make such a strong effort to stop the spread of homosexuality (like it’s a disease or something) anymore then it does to stop cheaters or divorcees, all of which are sin.
You see it is a complete double standard! The church has said from the beginning of time that sin is wrong. However, the American church says that this one sin is more wrong then this other sin. So they exclude the sinners who commit the sin they feel is the worst of the bunch. That’s the hypocrisy! The church should include EVERYONE regardless of how they are living. Remember, the church is supposed to be a hospital for the sick, not a country club for the healthy. Now if someone has given their life to Christ, been baptized into the church, and publicly declares themselves as a follower of Jesus yet continues in their sin (no matter what sin it is) without any attempt at serving God the way He’s called us to serve Him, then YES there is a problem and a right to confront that person and ask them not to participate in church leadership or membership.
But fighting to change laws, legislating society, and forcing Christian values/principles on people who don’t even know who Jesus is, is just downright stupid and a major waste of time and energy.
Reformer, I think we’re on the same page here. What I’m reading on this thread, however, is that what we’re talking about isn’t that the church needs to deal with sin differently, but that it should embrace same sex marriages, which to me is no different than a public declaration that we should also embrace divorce, infidelity, porn, and all other kinds of sexual sin. That’s where my disconnect with this particular thread is. I’m saying that becoming “relevant” as a church (the universal church, not any one local church body) means that you change the way that you “do church” to suit the culture. On the other hand, I don’t believe that it means we should be trying to change the Bible to suit how people believe.
In 2 Corinthians 10:4, 5, Paul says,”We destroy every proud obstacle that keeps people from knowing God. We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.”
Using the Law as a template for deciding whether homosexuality is wrong is not a viable option, for the same reason that we don’t use the Law as a template for justification before God. We use Christ and Him crucified as a template for justification and salvation. However, Cat, your argument against the church stance is not a very solid one if you are using the age-old “you also can’t eat pig” argument, because many of the laws written were for no other reason than cleanliness. The reason that shellfish and pigs are included in the law is because they feed on filth, for the most part. That particular part of the Law has been done away with, as we can see through Peter’s vision in the book of Acts. However, reading the book of Romans, we realize that the character of God still despises homosexuality, just as he despises adultery, idol worship, gossip, etc.
I guess the real question is this: why does same sex marriage need to be acceptable for the Gospel to reach people? Maybe CBC should tone down there political campaign or whatever, but do you honestly believe that the Gospel is about just “accepting” people? Because I thought the gospel was about repentance, forgiveness, grace, and transformation, not “come to church and you can still do whatever the hell you want, despite what the Word says.”
Are we supposed to tell people that gay marriage is totally cool, until they read Romans 1:26, 27, and then we say, “BAM! Just kidding; the God you serve doesn’t actually like gay marriage…so…you should probably stop.”?
If thats the case, maybe the church should just write a new Bible. Apparently the old one is “outdated”.