It's summer time, what can I say. I'm failing in my blogging duties.
But, in the meantime, here is a recent comment from someone who just left those large magnificent breasts on the hill.
So true. The worship was very different, but very genuine. I got the impression that one of the worship leaders (there were technically several) was up there to show off (seriously… stop smiling at everyone ALL the time and “almost” winking), but you just choose to ignore him. Everyone has issues and I’m afraid I deal with pride and insecurities more than I ever thought possible. I shouldn’t be the one to judge. It just reminds me that my own heart isn’t in the right place often. I just wanted to share the good news. I really am excited. They have a solid children’s ministry program, everyone’s super friendly and as far as I could tell, no one was putting on airs… they really were genuine with the people they interacted with before, during, and after the services. Many people seem to know many people, even though it is still a rather large church (not nearly as big as CBC). I also have some very dear friends who attend… on a different service than I went to, but I’ll probably start going “with” them. Got all excited when the pastor would read entire passages and explain them, tell how they applied to today’s life, how they applied during the culture of the day, and tie everything together so well… without numbers. Have a great day, y’all! The next step NSQ, is to start inviting City Bible Members to your new church. It will drive them crazy.
I have felt the same way, but GUESS WHAT?! I have a new church! I have attended one service and love it. I’m going to get involved in a Bible study there, it’s super close to where I live, the pastor’s sermons are solid & Bible-soaked (imagine: a message on the Bible – and applicable principles based on it… rather than principles with the Bible based on the agenda/message intended to get across). It’s the coolest thing. They don’t collect tithes, but rather have buckets in the back for it, as you walk out. No pressure and it can be between you and God – kind of like the churches that do communion with individual prayer and allow plenty of time, rather than CBC’s version, where everyone eats together and then drinks together with NO time to actually thank Jesus for His sacrifice (or even think about it) before the pastor goes up and makes everyone do something. It was aggravating. No 1, 2, 3, 4, a, b, c, or incompletely finished messages.
Ha! I can’t believe I became the subject of this post. But, I honestly am very grateful for all the support – and the celebration that came – of the change. I know it was the best decision for me, and I’m rejoicing in knowing I’m in a great church now. I have friends and family who still attend CBC, and I don’t look upon them any differently than I did 5 years ago. They love the church, they are growing in the Lord, and they are happy to serve. I can’t let my church decision cause me to be critical of them… lest they also be critical I left. It started becoming that way, but when I explained that this is my personal decision – after much prayer and counsel (guess where I got that?!) – and I feel very good about this decision, I left quietly and with as little conflict as could be possible. I addressed my concerns with leadership – and never, ever heard back from them. Either they don’t care, or they see the problems and are afraid to agree with me. Either way, that would be their decision – and this is mine. I can’t even begin to tell you how excited I am! As far as I know, the church I now attend has NEVER had a history of discord or abuse, as seen where I called “home” for so many years. I’ll visit from time to time – to renew those friendships and see what they’re up to, but honestly, I have no real reason for returning. I’m still in the phase where, a personal devotion time is difficult… kind of like someone who has an abusive father being able to identify with their Heavenly Father. My dad is great!!!! So, my main difficulty is just that, to trust a pastor or a church to even care I exist or to be nurturing and preach the Gospel is difficult for me. I stopped my personal devotions for a long time, because, well, that’s another long story. Anyway, I’m getting back into it, and for the first time in a LONG time, I knew last night, that the prayers I was praying were being heard, answered, and I feel alive, free, at peace, and joyful. I felt so dry, like I wasn’t living a perfectionist life in the limelight with others who were “popular” and “cool” and wore expensive clothes and weighed just right and were friends with all the leadership families and kids. I wasn’t one of those. I shyed away from the limelight (and several people didn’t really understand). I’m extremely talented with music, but chose to hide it, because I just didn’t want to get swept up in the tide of climbing the corporate involvement ladder. They demand your life, your finances, your time, your commitment, your loyalty,… all of which I wanted to be given to GOD. But, at the end of the day, I had no energy to spend with Him. In the morning, I had no motivation or desire to spend with Him, because I knew I’d be taken advantage of during the day… I knew that all my energy needed to go toward getting my normal daily activities done and then doing their activities and then to God. I know it shouldn’t be that way, and maybe I should have handled it differently, but… it’s over now. I’m excited to get involved in my new church’s small group, meet with other people of my age and interests, and eventually… after a long while, get involved in ministry again. I’d love to do that. And, best of all!? Well, maybe I’m exaggerating there in my excitement, but it’s not simulcast. Ha! They have real church plants with real teams with NO hierarchy of leadership. There is a pastor, but he obviously is doing what’s best for the church and for the people, in their relationships with God, above all else. I LOVE that. Can you tell I’m excited?!
And yes, I already have a friend coming with me soon… from CBC.
Just to visit.
Leaving CBC was the best decision I ever made and I never plan on coming back.
So glad you found a great place, NSQ!
Yeah, that is really weird how the PTB (powers that be) respond when you tell them you are leaving and why. The only thing I figured it could be is a corporate mind-set — like a cult. When I left, several people talked to me, and they all basically said the same thing. I was wrong, I was bitter, it was personal and not doctrinal, I was “burned out”, it was spiritual warfare, etc.
You’d think I had learned my lesson when I did leave an actual cult in 1978, and I got the exact same responses.
Glad to hear you are doing well NSQ! As for the response from the PTB, I’m not suprised. One of the things that bugged me was how any communication with them seemed to disappear into a black hole. They are very much an R=DO bunch, meaning they are in leadership and if you suggest anything is wrong, it is a personal affront to them, and you are the problem.
I’m glad you left!
It’s so true. And, I’m so glad… sad too. Why, after all these years, when I leave the church, do they not care? Because there are others who will fill my spot. I’m happy in my new church and know I’ll be able to do something real for the Kingdom of God. It’s amazing!
Even David knew enough not to touch God’s annointed. Saul tried several times to kill him, pursued him wrongly, and was consumed by paranoid thoughts and jealousy.
Yet David, whom the Bible calls a man after God’s own heart, forgave him, loved him, and honored and respected his authority. Even when he had every “right†to do the opposite.
As a leader in an MFI church in northern CA, who’s been personally ministered to by Dick Iverson, Jude Fuquier, Dave Patterson, David and Patrick Kiteley and other MFI church pastors and leaders, I can testify that (at least in my experience) these are men of God who care deeply about seeing people grow in relationship with Jesus, seeing the lost saved, and advancing God’s kingdom on the earth.
Whether or not you differ from them doctrinally on issues like prosperity or word of faith is no big deal, we are encourage by Paul that we some times have differences and that one who eats should’nt judge the one who does, and vice versa. But each decides in his own heart what “doctrine†is important to him.
Maybe we can come together in unity across denominational lines to see people’s lives healed by the Cross of Jesus, rather than blogging about each other.
And take care, since you seem so set sure on the idea that these men and their churches are “in sinâ€â€¦rather than maybe teaching a different interpretation of the Word than you have….that’s an awful close approach to touching the Lord’s annointed.
Blessings.
-Bryan
I appreciate your concern. But somehow, I don’t think God holds you in the same esteem that you hold yourself.
Who said anything about me? I’m speaking of the pastors and leaders that I mentioned early in my post.
They are God’s annointed, along with many others of different denominations all over the US and the world who preach Jesus and the Cross.
You did: As a leader in an MFI church in northern CA,
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, but you are just the latest out of 100′s of people who have visited this blog over the past five years, making veiled threats about “touching God’s anointed”.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree, but I don’t believe you are any more special to God than myself, Lindsay Lohan, or the 3 people who still read this blog.
See the beauty of God is He loves everyone equally. He doesn’t Love you more than he Loves anyone else on this earth. And he hasn’t put you on special secret watch to make sure no one offends your delicate sensibilities.
It’s incredibly arrogant to claim… …and look at that it’s five o’clock. I can go home. Take care, Bryan.
Since you’ve drawn the conclusion that criticism of bad behavior = doing bodily harm, please explain how Nathan calling for David to repent for his affair with Bathsheba fits with your view. David didn’t seem to feel that was unjust.
[Comment ID #37879 Will Be Quoted Here]
No, we agree to agree. Nobody is more special to God. Not me, not you, not Judah Smith, not Obama, not random Joe or Jane Christian.
I never said that, so we don’t need to argue that point.
What I said, was that even if you were right about the issues that you have with the churches you blast (issues being prosperity teachings, word of faith teachings, etc…), that you don’t have to take time out of your life and your calling (trust me friend, this isn’t what God made you for) to post on the web about why you think these churches are so wrong.
Again, even if the way they interpret certain scriptures actually was wrong (and the jury is out friend), then why not be like David and honor Saul anyway? (i.e., not touching God’s anointed)
Just move on with your life and do what God has you here for: winning souls. Sharing the good news of the love and grace of Jesus for all. Spend some time at a soup kitchen, start a home group, etc…channel all this energy into helping lost and hurting people, as opposed to trying to tear down churches that you don’t agree with.
And if God wants to correct the pastors and leaders of certain churches like Nathan did David, He’ll send a prophet. Or another man or woman of God who they know and trust and would listen to.
Because like you said, you’re not any more special than them…God doesn’t need you and your mean-spirited blog to correct them. He’ll take care of it on His own, in His way….IF that is necessary.
Enjoy your evening! It’s only 3pm here.
)
[Comment ID #37880 Will Be Quoted Here]
^Answered in the above post. This blog is hardly a prophet, a man of God come to give a word to a leader in private as a rebuke, to lead to repentance.
What it appears to be (unless I’m missing something), is a bash-fest on some churches and people you don’t agree with.
Wait a second here Mr. Hopping Hopperson,
You think its ok to compare Dick Iverson, Jude Fuquier, Dave Patterson (and the others) to King Saul and God’s Annointed yet Fezzik can’t compare this blog to the Prophet Nathan?
I’ll take Blog = Nathan over Jude Fuquier = God’s Annointed every day of the week.
Again, as Catalyst pointed out…How Arrogant.
Wait a second here Mr. Johnpaul Morton,
You think its ok to compare this blog to the Prophet Nathan, yet I can’t compare Dick Iverson, Jude Fuquier, Dave Patterson (and the others) to King Saul?
I’ll take Jude Fuquier = God’s Annointed over Blog = Nathan every day of the week.
Again, as Catalyst pointed out…How Arrogant.
(see what I did there?)
Opinons are such inter-changeable things…
Also, having been at youth conference where 100 kids were filled with the Holy Spirit AT ONCE, while Pastor Jude was ministering (with no hype, or demonstrations by others), I’d say he has some level of God’s anointing on his life…
Why are you all so bitter?
Just go on and love Jesus and people your way and let these folks do it there’s. And for certain, don’t go bashing them all over the internet.
No Hopper,
You are more than welcome to compare Jude to God’s Annointed…go for it. Its just your opinion and you are welcom to it. Just know that when you take that liberty it opens the door for us to compare this blog to the prophet Nathan…and you shouldn’t have an issue with that.
(See what I did there?)
Now that we have that settled…will you please go answer Fezzik’s question?
God used a donkey to correct a Biblical leader, so why can’t He use members of a “mean-spirited blog”?
Donkey’s aren’t mean spirited, Fezzik (thats Bible 101).
@Mrhopper
How do you Biblically define “God’s anointed”? To use Saul & David as your primary proof-text you must ignore the NT teaching that ALL believers in Jesus are “God’s anointed” because Jesus was the true anointed one. To use the OT context as your primary reference you are also ignoring the many warnings of Jesus and the apostles about watching for false teachers/doctrine. Biblical unity is not achieved at the cost of sound doctrine (not just options).
This is a very good question. But let me save everyone the trouble. If you work for MFI, you’re not God’s Annointed. I don’t know much in life, but I do know that.
The main disagreement I’ve found with MFI pastors is that they believe 90% of what they do is good and positive and only a small percentage of their actions are negative. While, in my experience from listening to readers on this blog, I would say it’s more like 70% negative and 30% positive.
But pastors don’t realize this, because it’s impossible for anyone to criticize the church. The minute someone does, they are confronted with “Touch Not God’s Anointed.” It leads pastors to live in a bubble, and they lose all sense of self-awareness. (Lebron James anyone?)
And again, I hate to harp on this point. But how arrogant do you have to be to walk around claiming you’re God’s Anointed. I mean, seriously.
That’s why so many of the discussions with MFI pastors on this blog are fruitless. Pastors think they’re God’s Anointed. We know they’re not. End of discussion.
And some, he called as Pastors, Prophets, Apostles, Evangelists and Teachers.
“MFI Pastors think they’re God’s Anointed. We KNOW they’re not. End of discussion.”
No, end of your opinion. The NT makes it very clear that there are those who are called to certain ministries, those whom the Holy Spirit gives certain giftings and callings (as HE chooses)…so it’s safe to say that those who are functioning in those roles are God’s annointed.
I won’t disagree with the 70/30 principle though…that’s about right on! LOL!
Maybe our church is a little different…our senior pastor has missed it, and admits so often enough..to the entire congregation…and in convo’s with him, he’ll admit that the first 5 years of his pastoring (he’s at 10 now), he did things he wouldn’t do again…
so who knows?
Also, I want to say that I’m not trying to invalidate any negative experiences that some have had in MFI churches, things pastors may have said or done, etc…
nobody’s perfect, and there are no perfect churches. (let me know if you’ve found one!)
I guess all I wanted to say was that I’ve seen the same coin from a different side, have had my life blessed by many of the men that are bashed on this blog, and that it’s a possibilty that you all would be well served to do something else with your passions and engergies.
But I’ll leave you alone now, and that’s a promise. Don’t think ill of me, we’ll be roomies in heaven.
Let me see if I can explain the fallacy of that kind of thinking…
You say that “those who are functioning in those roles are God’s annointed” (speaking of certain Pastors and Leaders of the church).
Therefore you must also say that ALL Pastors and Leaders of ALL churches are God’s annointed (as we can’t just pick and choose).
You have also stated that “Even David knew enough not to touch God’s annointed.” and this is where the danger comes in. Now ALL Pastors, and Leaders of ALL churches can’t be touched because they are ALL God’s annointed.
So…when, for instance, a Catholic Priest gets busted for Child Molestation…well tough luck kid…touch not God’s Annointed. When, for instance, you find out your head pastor has a meth addiction and is sleeping with Male Prostitutes…watch out…touch not God’s Annointed.
Or say, just for fun, your head pastor has a real temper, or pride issues, or lies too much or has some serious doctrinal issues…touch not God’s Annointed.
At some point you have to draw the line somewhere. We draw it at doctrinal issues…you may not draw it at all.
Well Brian, I don’t think you’re God’s Anointed, but I do think you sound like a nice guy. I wish you the best.
This is really funny. A lot of great things said… and some not so great things. I’ll let you figure out which is which. As the subject of this entry, I still laugh outloud at the whole idea of the title. A bit much, anyone? I think it is. But, truly, I think you all are great! I’m so glad to be out of the bubble, but I’m afraid I’m getting to be a bit bitter now that I’m evaluating what I’ve come away from… how do you even get to a place where you feel able to read and study the Bible without wharped perspective? I see sooooo many problems in the preaching I’ve been under all my life, and want to share them with someone, but I can’t. So, I find myself frustrated and WAY behind, and lost, and confused, and unsure what to do next. I have a great new church, but haven’t had a chance to get to know anyone yet. Maybe that’s all it takes. I’ve grown up my whole life, believing that your status is determined by how much you do to set up chairs, babysit, fold papers, check bracelets, exchange money in the cafe, and stand on your feet… all for the Kingdom of God. I am learning now, that that wasn’t ANY of what it truly means to live for God, to do something, to share the Gospel with others… I mean, have I truly wasted my whole life to this point? I’m a statistic… one of those people who grows up in the church, knows a TON about the Bible, and yet hasn’t actually done anything significant or brought anyone to the point where they make a decision for Christ. My only experience with it is “leading” two kids to the Lord, through an altar call in camp, but there was never any follow-through. It was painful. Never saw those two kids again. I know the seed is planted, but in my WHOLE life, I thought my mission in life was to serve the pastor and the ministry. You mean… I can do more for God?! You mean, I truly can make a difference – and it’s not all hype?! I can be different from the flaky friends who care more about themselves than others or sharing the love, grace, and joy of Jesus?! It’s so foreign, and I feel ashamed that it is so. I know I’m saved. I know I’m secure in Jesus. But, He must be so disappointed in me – to have come so far and done NOTHING of consequence to even take seriously that there are MANY, MANY people who are lost and hurting and without my Savior. It breaks my heart. See? I’m crying. It’s the first time in my life that I’ve cried for them – for those who don’t know Him and for those who are trapped in the wrong mindset – lost and going NOWHERE. Why?! Why is this new to me? What happens to all the other people who never realize this and remain in the “Bubble”? So many people I love and care about go there… what happens to/with them?
“… even if you were right about the issues that you have with the churches you blast.. .you don’t have to take time out of your life and your calling (trust me friend, this isn’t what God made you for) to post on the web about why you think these churches are so wrong.”
Oh Mr. Hopper…did you ever stop and think about why people read this post? Why it even exists? This post is not driven by bitterness. It is driven by a need for healing the hearts that have been damaged from these issues. Any bitterness is the result of that harm. Perhaps you should take a moment and read NoStatusQuo’s post again. Here’s two of my favorites.
“I’m so glad to be out of the bubble, but I’m afraid I’m getting to be a bit bitter now that I’m evaluating what I’ve come away from… how do you even get to a place where you feel able to read and study the Bible without wharped perspective? … I find myself frustrated and WAY behind, and lost, and confused, and unsure what to do next.”
“They demand your life, your finances, your time, your commitment, your loyalty,… all of which I wanted to be given to GOD. But, at the end of the day, I had no energy to spend with Him. In the morning, I had no motivation or desire to spend with Him, because I knew I’d be taken advantage of during the day…”
So Mr. Hopper, get off your high horse, open your eyes to the possibility that this blog might just be a calling. It provides much needed therapy for many of us. This blog has given us permission to heal and the realization that it is not in just in our heads…this hurt is real.
Mr. Hopper,
I’m not trying to pick on you, as you represent many people who have been taught this teaching on God’s anointed, which this discussion has evolved into. This teaching has served to keep many sincere Christians in fear, and been used as a control mechanism over the Body of Christ. Which just that is so funny…the Body of Christ, or the Church, is not even about a building anyway. It is HIS SPIRIT joining all the members of Christ’s body together as one Body in Christ. But, I digress…
John writes in 1 John 2:20 this:
[But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.]
And, also in 1 John 2:27:
[But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.]
Yes, in the Old Covenant God’s people were not to ‘touch God’s anointed’, which was the kings and priests, or anointed objects in the Tabernacle of God. But now, WE are the Priesthood of God: [But YOU are a CHOSEN RACE, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession...1 Pet. 2:9]. And, in verse 5, [you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.] Even Isaiah prophesied of the forthcoming NEW priesthood of God in Isaiah 61:6, [But YOU will be called the priests of the Lord; YOU will be spoken of as ministers of our God...].
An addendum to my last comment…
So, this really leaves us with the question; under the New Covenant, who are we not to touch? The answer is each other in the Body of Christ! Thus, Christ’s teaching us that love as the most important gift we can give each other, [A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. John 13:34].
And, thank God, unlike King Saul, who LOST his anointing through disobedience, we have an INWARD anointing, which cannot be taken from us, [The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29].
Mr Hopper,
This comment caught my eye:
It reminded me of how Israel acted in Judges and how “every man did what was right in their own eyes”. The comment makes it seem you don’t think these doctrines are important and we can have a “choose your own religion” adventure. I think these things are of the utmost importance to God, and He is seriously offended when we think we can look to our heart as the standard to doctrine. It is Jesus who said our heart is wicked “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts” Mt 15:19
I say this because your comment is a huge red flag, as a foundational element of our faith. Should we be the standard of truth? Should we let our hearts guide us? Do we stand by men who propagate false doctrine, or do we trust Jesus when He said false doctrine is like leaven?
It is amazing how little we understand Christian history, and the history of the prosperity and word of faith aberrations. The expression of Christianity throughout the 2,000 years and this new movement are VERY different. One spawned from the finished work of Christ and leads to a life of selflessness, and the other from American consumerism that leads to a life of doing business transactions with God. I think if we took time to look to the past, the seriousness of these errors would be put into proper light.
Oh, bravo, Craig. Well said!
[Comment ID #37872 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well, yes, it is sad that there is a line of people waiting to take the place you left. Even sadder that the leadership sits behind desks so dismissingly saying “Next.” caring not what will become of those who left. These ‘anointed’ we aren’t supposed to touch are going to have to stand before God someday and try to explain to HIM why they weren’t really shepherds at all, how they really didn’t care for God’s anointed people.
It was difficult to find out that those people we thought cared for us really didn’t. But we shouldn’t have been surprised. After all we were considered units not people. To stay there in the regime would have made us eunuchs in the long run. You are wise to have left, NSQ. The good news is, the LORD is your Shepherd and you shall not want!
[Comment ID #37910 Will Be Quoted Here]
NSQ,
Your questions echo what we have asked ourselves too over the years. You can’t help but be angry – it’s part of a grieving process. It’s like a divorce or a death for some of us because we gave so much of ourselves. So no wonder you are feeling strong feelings! Five years later, we are feeling less bitter, but we’ve been on a journey of forgiveness which is a slow releasing of the all the bad behavior and trusting that God is in the salvaging business. With the pain you feel, you will help others so don’t despair. It couldn’t have been a waste.
Right now you are enduring the reality therapy that comes from discovering everything isn’t as it seemed, or should have been, so you feel duped. But now you are free to serve Jesus instead of a pastor. Now you are free to walk in the true anointing given to every Christian not just the TOUCH NOT MY ANOINTED ELITE! Go figure – Christian means little Christ. If He was anointed, or is, aren’t we each anointed too??
We are now free to serve him with a whole heart and in soundness of mind, sitting at HIS feet, not at the feet of a man. The pastor worship was wrong – it was idolatry, but we didn’t know that at the time. We were taught that we were serving Jesus by serving our pastors. Our first few years of blogging here at CBC blog was our lament over that (yes we were whining but we HAD to, no one else would listen to us!!) and how the pastors families thought they were entitled to the worshipfest. It’s so good to know the truth about that and the truth has set us free in stages – not that we don’t ever feel the resentment again bcz it DOES resurface by certain triggers – but it does get less as time goes on!
So, as my good friend FreeAtLast has told me from the beginning, feel your feelings. The anger is actually a good sign that you are going through a stage of grasping reality. Forgiveness will come but not over night and not just once. It’s a process. Maybe it’s a lifelong process. Chances are, by the time you read this, especially since your comment was on the 16th and it’s now the 22nd, you don’t feel angry today. You could feel extreme freedom or sadness. But when the anger comes back around, feel it, cuz it’s part of the process too. God isn’t surprised by it and has expected it and will listen to your prayers and help you get thru it.
As for your friends still in the Bubble, you are probably already praying for them so get ready for divine appointment surprises – let the Lord bring them in your path. Or maybe you’ll feel the energy to call one of them on any given day as the HS leads you. You’ll share whatever comes out of your heart and mouth for them that day. They may need lots of small doses of truth before they are free to leave the worshipfest. Hold them with an open hand cuz it can be a little frustrating watching them walk back into the vortex more than once. OR to never leave it. I have one such loved one whose loyalty to the pastor clan goes beyond what I ever thought it would… he seems wedged in their unreality waiting for God knows what or whom. All we can do is pray and be ready to share when the opportunity arises.
Anyway, we are all here for you cheering you on even if the blog topic suddenly veers off to another one (the anointing thing I see! wow I’m gonna have to come back and read it all later, it looks like quite the debate! Let’s pray for a new and understanding friend(s) (beyond bloglife) who has been set free from a vortex too who can empathize with you, so you won’t feel alone in your city.
Take care and keep us posted,
Detox
[Comment ID #37866 Will Be Quoted Here]
Anna,
I guess what we don’t detox from, we repeat. Maybe getting out in 1978 was just round 1 for you. And from the looks of things, CBC is your final round in dealing with cult-like environments.
I have no idea how long the detox process is or even WHAT it actually is. All I know is if I were to have rushed into ‘getting involved’ at the new Good Church I’d probably be on staff worshipping the very cool pastor there, back in the same type of situation I got out of. At least this pastor is keeping the worshipfest at bay for the most part, by not allowing it, but he IS only human. How does one not fall prey to it as a pastor? and then as a pastor worshipper?
I’m so content now, to not be seen and to stay very well under the radar.
Anyway, that’s why I decided to blog about the detox thing (at DCG), to have a place to ruminate about what we ‘ve been going through over the years and to document our findings. I can only post when I have the energy for it though or if I need a good vent! Or else it’s like the old ways…and I get legalistic… nosirree, don’t want that EVER again!
[Comment ID #37928 Will Be Quoted Here]Jeremiah 5:26-27: For wicked men are found among My people, They watch like fowlers lying in wait; They set a trap. They catch men. Like a cage full of birds, so their houses are full of deceit; Therefore they have become great and rich.
Looks like Jeremiah understood the prosperity doctrine pretty well!
Thanks, detox, I would like to think so. But I think the cult situation stems from our human desire to be part of something, to be accepted, to be secure. But now I’m old enough that the “leaders” are either my age or younger, and any awe of them is tempered by a lot more reality with a dose of discernment. See, these grey hairs are worth something!
Another thing that has helped is that our current church is just so different. The format doesn’t lend itself toward pastor worship, and our pastor is just not that type.
Mr Hopper said
Guess Mr Hopper really meant that he was leaving now since he tried to set the CBC Blog straight and failed so must never return.
The Hallmark of a true MFI blogger.
I just wanted to pipe up on here, everyone, and let you know… I’m sorry for not keeping up. I logged on and realized there are 10 comments on this post I hadn’t “seen” since my last visit, but I received them all in my inbox. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Your encouragement and reassurance that I’ve done the right thing line up with what I’ve been receiving from my family, during my prayer times, and in the services at my new church. I love it there! Just knowing I’m welcome here – to share experiences, to express feelings, and to be honest… it’s the coolest thing. Thank you for standing up for me while I’m away and can’t stand up for myself. I think you all do a better job of it anyway, so please continue!
Anyway, just wanted to express my appreciation. One of these days, I want to meet you all. Too bad there’s no way to set up an anonymous social network. Haha! Defeating the purpose or what?! 
MrHopper has an interesting perspective about “God’s Annotated” one that is contradictory to the bible. Here is a discussion (over e-mail) I got into with my SR Pastor, she received it well. Funny how a word that is in 1 verse in the whole bible “Pastor” is used almost with out question today as a place of authority.
My problem with MFI is exactly the position they put the SR Pastor in, as well as its a “mans” only world.
My opinion on Aug 5th 2010 unless I can be taught/convinced otherwise:
Nobody is saying that the position of a SR Pastor roll should be eliminated. I fully support such a role. But the role is not a CEO or President of an organization it’s a place of service. Churches are getting this upside down.
God’s system is that each follower of Christ is Born Again – makes a free will choice to submit to God’s will as Christ did (till his death), Baptized in water to wash away the Sin nature of man – given by Adam, Baptized in the Holy Spirit (filled with) that Christ/God can live through us. As each of these things activated in our lives we live by a different set of principles and life. Each individual has a personal relationship with Christ that is not to be surpassed by any earthly relationship including marriage, church or any other. This is God’s 1st commandment: Do not have any other gods before me.
God establishes early in his holy word that he wants a direct relationship with us.
Further establishment of a King is man’s sin nature not God’s will:
1 Samuel 8 Israel Asks for a King
1 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as judges for Israel . 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba . 3 But his sons did not walk in his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.
4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead [a] us, such as all the other nations have.”
6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.
This is not God’s will God told Samuel that Israel is rejecting God as their King. WOW, that is a strong rebuke from God in my opinion.
Going forward to Christ:
I am just going to cut and paste from: http://www.raystedman.org/thematic-studies/leadership/a-pastors-authority FYI: Ray Stedman is a very established teacher as he has many of the commentaries on blueletterbible.org.
By these words Jesus indicates that an entirely different system of government than that employed by the world should prevail among Christians. Authority among Christians is not derived from the same source as worldly authority, nor is it to be exercised in the same manner. The world’s view of authority places men over one another, as in a military command structure, a business executive hierarchy, or a governmental system. This is as it should be. Urged by the competitiveness created by the Fall, and faced with the rebelliousness and ruthlessness of sinful human nature, the world could not function without the use of command structures and executive decision.
But as Jesus carefully stated, “…it shall not be so among you.” Disciples are always in a different relationship to one another than worldlings are. Christians are brothers and sisters, children of one Father, and members one of another. Jesus put it clearly in Matthew 23:8 (RSV): “One is your Master, and all you are brethren.”
Jesus is specifically establishing a different kind of leadership. He is saying that we must serve each other and that is how we lead. Please read the whole article on the above link because Pastor Stedman is articulate and accurate in his sermon on Pastor’s leadership. I think what Christ did here was beautiful at worst and genius at best. He is re-establishing God to each of us as our individual King. Through the Holy Spirit we are directed in every step, through gifts edifying each other. We serve not in hierarchy but shoulder to shoulder as Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
What about Paul, the letters and Church Organization?
Peter is the “head†of the Church in Jerusalem :
Acts 1,2,3,4,5,8,15 – no one questions Peter’s authority to speak for the Church, declare anathemas, and resolve doctrinal debates. Peter is the rock on which the Church is built who feeds Jesus’ sheep and whose faith will not fail.
But Paul rebukes even Peter:
Galatians 2:11-14 (New International Version) Paul Opposes Peter 11When Peter came to Antioch , I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
Peter later agrees with Paul at the Council at Jerusalem :
Acts 15:1-12 (New International Version)
Acts 15 The Council at Jerusalem 1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria , they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem , they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them. 5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” 6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” 12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
I do find it ironic that the “certain men came from James†who biblical historians say that James was teaching hypocrisy at the time to the church in Jerusalem . James does come around and succeeds Peter to the head of the Church. James became a very strong defender against legalism in the church by his own accords later.
Case in point: Paul who is by any hierarchical structure would be under Peter’s Authority rebukes Peter in public. This had to be done not just because what Peter was doing was foolish, but because of who Peter was and what everything he did carried weight with everyone.
Paul specifically establishes his apostleship not from Jerusalem but from Christ directly. He was not anointed by men but by God (as all of us are called this way).
Galations 1:1,2: Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia :
And Galations 1 11-24: 11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15But when God, who set me apart from birth[a] and called me by his grace, was pleased 16to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter[b] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. 21Later I went to Syria and Cilicia . 22I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24And they praised God because of me.
Romans 1:1-6 1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God[b] by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
1 Timothy 1:1 1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
And on and on. Paul specifically and purposely over and over establishes his apostleship aside from the Christian Church leadership. And often was in conflict with them because of legalism in the early Christian Church.
So what about scriptures on following authority?
Acts 20:28: “Be shepherds†or bishops … This is not a single anointing for one man this was a calling of all the elders in Ephesus as stated in Acts 20:17.
1 Thessalonians 5:12 “who are over you in the Lord†again this is not a single Pastor model. Or at least I do not think you can support such a doctrine on such as small phrase.
Philippians 1:1 “together with the overseers[a] and deaconsâ€: or Bishops and Deacons these make up the elders not a single leader model the word overseers and or bishops are plural.
Also in Tim. 3:1; Tit. 1:7 tells of an “overseer†or deacon. Specifically how one is to live as one:
The word “overseer†is translated from greek: episkopē
Strong’s #1984: episkope (pronounced ep-is-kop-ay’)
from 1980; inspection (for relief); by implication, superintendence; specially, the Christian “episcopate”:–the office of a “bishop”, bishoprick, visitation.
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon: episkopeÌ„
1) investigation, inspection, visitation
1a) that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad
1b) oversight
1b1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
1b2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church
Where did we get the doctrines of Church Authority?
Some from original Catholic traditions but most of the real doctrines came from the Anglican Church: (Anglican Church of England – or some subsidiary of England ) Episcopal Church, Presbyterians of sorts as well.
This doctrine was used to establish the King of England over the church as a single headship. It was never strong in US Protestantism with the exception of Anglican denominations until recently it this top down spiritual authority is making a resurgence in non-denominational churches. Pastor’s like John Bevere are preaching it and it is catching on.
Nobody is saying that the position of a SR Pastor roll should be eliminated. I fully support such a role. But the role is not a CEO or President of an organization it’s a place of service. Churches are getting this upside down. Foursquare has a very biblical balance with a Counsel of Elders and a separated Pastoral group.
NBCC,
That was a good post, I enjoyed it! I agree it is wrong to think of the 5 fold ministry as some pecking order. I also think the term ‘pastor’ is heavily overused today, sheesh, we’ve music pastor, youth pastor, womens pastor, senior pastor, executive pastor…& on & on, all out of ONE USE in the whole bible! I think the title is used so much due to the fact it has NO definition, responsibility,or duties listed with it in scripture. It lets the title holder ‘fill in the blanks’.
Thanks WhatHeSaid, I am not sure it was a result of spicificaly trying to find something undefined in the Bible as much as it is that we replaced God’s system for man’s system. Pastor was a good term to replace manager. We have SR Manager, executive manager, music manager, youth manager, women’s manager, mens manager and so on on on….
See we took a biblical term that was close to manager “Pastor” or “shepherd” and turned it into our own thing. I did this bible study after my SR Pastor said something in bible study that had John Bevere’ish tones to it. She has backed away from it.
MFI is not the only one guilty of this, but they have a strong SR Pastor can not do no wrong theology that is unbiblical. Also that only Men can be SR Pastors (again a role undefined in the bible how do they get that?).
So that is my 2 cents for what it is worth.
I think what frustrates them the most is that they can’t quite “manage” the Holy Spirit, even though they try hard. (Ever listen to their prayers?)
The “pastor” is a gift to the church. When the Holy Spirit gifts a church with a true shepherd, it is wonderful.
Anna: I do not understand, could you elaborate?
Former NBCC: I know it sounds ridiculous that anybody would try to tell God what to do, but I heard it all the time in church. People would declare and decree stuff as if they were God. And if that didn’t work, then they would prophesy it into existence. Well that often didn’t work either, so then they would quote Scripture to God and dare Him to comply. If all of the above failed, then they would just boss the Holy Spirit, “Do this, rain that, fire here…”
Probably done it myself.
As for the gift of a pastor, I was referencing Eph 4:11-13, with a consideration to John 10. A true shepherd will be a servant and not a king — will put the welfare of his charges before his own life. That is the example the Lord Jesus gave us, and that is the kind of “pastor” that is the Lord’s gift to a church.
Does that help?
Quite true. This certainly brings back memories. I remember hearing this kind of stuff and thinking to myself how they seemed to be reading off of their wish list. It didn’t seem like they were interested in listening to what God wanted, as opposed to telling Him what they wanted.
I had that happen, over and over again. Mostly for physical healing. Well, those decrees that I was healed (I trusted)… I took the plunge, and ended up in big trouble, more time in a cast, more time on medication… it wasn’t pretty. They used to tell us not to make those big “words vocalized” and just let the real pastors do it… but, they were the leaders who said such things. It’s something I’m still dealing with emotionally, but thank Jesus, I’m not in a cast and I’m not on meds!!! It was all in His timing, not theirs.
And, on a side note, here’s a PBCer who didn’t earn a “MRS” degree. I’m actually thankful. I am content as things are right now, thankful for a great job, super thankful for my new church (which I wouldn’t have been allowed to attend with a PBCer for a husband), and a great family with friends who love me. My Lord has saved me, forgiven me, and given me purpose to live for Him. Seriously, it’s really different these days. I feel free, happy, able to spend time with those I love – instead of always feeling guilty, writing letters, calling when the church took my time, energy, and emotional stability.
Thank you for this blog, and for dedicating this post to a hurting, lost person… even if the title does make me laugh, and feel guilty at the same time.
Good for you, NSQ! You sound much healthier. Now maybe you’ll be brave and tell us the name of your new church.