So, some muslims want to build a community center a couple blocks away from Ground Zero, and naturally this country is all up in arms. We've got ten percent unemployment, a 13 trillion dollar deficit, two foreign wars, and the biggest thing the Republicans and Democrats can find to debate is some building that will have zero effect on 99.9% of the population. Yep, sounds about right.
There is pretty clearly a First Amendment Freedom of Religion claim here. But I get that conservatives aren't claiming that Muslims don't have the right to build their Community Center. It's that it's offensive to the victims of 9/11. Fair enough.
This, of course, excites me to no end. As someone who doesn't care much for religion, I love where this leads. The next time your local mega-church wants to build a new church, all you have to do is find something offensive that some Christians have done in the past, and then use that to oppose the new church. Or as Jon Stewart asks, "You can build a Catholic Church next to a playground, but should you?"
Anyway, what do you all think?
It’s not at all clear why some 9/11 victims are offended by a Muslim community center near the World Trade Center site other than blatant religious bigotry and ignorance.
It is interesting that Park51′s developers followed a similar path as many megachurch developers. According to a Newsweek article:
I appreciate the president’s nuanced position. It is his duty to protect the rights of NYC Muslims, but it isn’t appropriate for him to speak out in favor or opposition regarding a private religious matter. As a Dem, I’m disappointed by the lack of backbone by some Dems. Although I’m not surprised that the Republicans and Tea Party folks who often spew rhetoric about religious freedom and less gummit are campaigning on using the gummit to stop, criticize and impeded a private religious organization’s efforts.
This was not and never has been a tea-party or Republican issue. You just make things up to fit your world view.
The only Republican who has said anything about this is the Mayor in support of it. Republicans have not addressed this just because they do not have too.
No the democrats would love to sidetrack the real issues (as both of you liberals have done) because really everyone has rejected your entire agenda.
Its still the economy stupid!!!
Other than, Texas Senator John Coryn, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, The entire cast of Fox News, yeah no Republicans are talking about it.
Totally agree.
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So Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, and Newt Gingrich aren’t Republicans? They’ve all been very vocal about opposing the Mosque. My only question is where was Newt to protect Oklahoma City bombing survivors from the big scary Christians and their Churches that helped blow up the federal building in 1995.
I agree that it’s a sideshow to deflect attention from the more pressing issues with the economy, the Gulf Oil disaster, etc. but let’s not pretend this is being driven by Democrats alone. It takes two to tango.
In other news, the elections are now 75 days away and president obama has stuck his foot in his mouth supporting this thing, which 70% of Americans are opposed to.
I can see Nov. 2nd from my house.
It looks to me like the clashing of two world views. I’ve heard the anti-mosque pundits say, “They’re just boldly claiming victory and planting their flag of conquest on a sacred ground of America.”
To which, it seems, that America will do what it usually does… shrug its collective shoulders and basically say, “Have fun with that.”
Someone told me recently that her concern is that this mosque is evidence of the Muslim’s master plan to take over this country, and that the Bible predicts it. Sigh. I, for once, kept my mouth shut, even though I vehemently disagree with both statements, or rather, I don’t care about the first one because even IF that’s their plan, it doesn’t mean it has a remote chance of happening, and I do vehemently disagree with the second statement. The surety that so many Christians have about their eschatological views never ceases to amaze me. Especially the “mainstream” views that dominate “Christian media.” I watched the first “Left Behind” movie just for giggles recently and could hardly make it through, given the absolutely wacky theology.
Anyway, I digress from the topic at hand. The NYC mosque. I totally agree with you, catalyst, and with you, Norm!
The way the right is framing this is disturbing; demonizing a small, relatively powerless religious minority for political gain and to district from the massive problems our country faces. Ring any bells, historically?
I also heard that (presumed Republican) Frank Damazio spoke out against the Mosque @ CBC last Sunday. The remark made by Frank offended my “anonymous source”.
I am tempted to listen to the sermon to hear for myself so I could quote the actual comments here but my therapist said its better for me to stay away from CBC sermons.
Anyone else want to do it?
I listened to the sermon. And now I’m gonna go see Dr. Finklestein and I’m gonna tell him we got a whole new bag of issues. We can forget about mom for awhile.
I didn’t hear him specifically address the Mosque issue, but he kind of hinted around it by claiming that not all religions are equal.
He also has an unfortunate moment, where he claims that he is proud to be a bigot. I suspect it was just a poor choice of words, but it was still pretty revealing. This takes place at around the 26,27 minute mark.
At the end of the sermon, he calls up all the young people in the audience. And then as they start to congregate around the pulpit, he tells two girls to move out of the way, so he can see himself in the monitor. Heh. Way to stay classy.
I really don’t understand what he’s thinking or what his plan for that church is. He seems lost.
Ok, i listened to this portion of the sermon and find it…well… sad.
Frank claims to be a bigot and says he will never respect all religions because there is only one right religion, all others are wrong, and the Bible is the only way to tell which is which.
Damazio acts almost proud to say he is a bigot claiming “If someone tells you that you are a narrow minded bigot the only thing you have to say is, Thank You”
I’m not trying to pick on Frank, but seriously, he needs to think before shooting his mouth off like this.
Allow me to make 2 seemingly obvious counter statements:
1. BIGOTRY IS NOT A BIBLICAL VALUE
2. JESUS WAS NOT A BIGOT
I can’t think of any stories where Jesus did not respect any person for any reason…race, age, sexuality, religion. Correct me if I’m wrong but all I can see from Jesus is Love and Acceptance…the exact opposite of what Frank was teaching on Sunday.
The other part of the sermon that bothered me was when he claimed he did not respect all religions, and then said, "I will not respect the Ku Klux Klan. I will not respect White Slavery." Uh, those aren't religions. Those are just hateful people. And white slavery is just a form of slavery; it's not even an organization.
What is he thinking?
What…the…hell. That is all messed up on a whole other level. Sometimes I wonder if I had never left the church, and if I was sitting there that Sunday, if none of that would have seemed weird/wrong to me.
Also…there is already a mosque about 4 blocks from Ground Zero and it pre-dates the WTC. Aaaaand…I was under the impression that these new plans aren’t even for a mosque – they are for an Islamic Community Center. Which I am sure makes NO difference to anyone.
This whole country is making me batty. The 9/11 terrorists were an extremist group of people who were Muslim. To equate the entire Muslim community with them is, yep I’m gonna say it: STUPID.
Hey Christians, try this on for size: The KKK were/are an extremist group of people who were/are CHRISTIANS. So according to the same logic applied to the previously mentioned Muslim example: Christians shouldn’t be allowed to have a place of worship or even social gatherings that is anywhere near where a lynching occurred.
Gaaaaaaaah MY BRAIN IS GOING TO EXPLODE!
Hey, wait, no… I can’t handle this originality… it is… too much for me.
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Hahahahahahahahaha! I hope the two girls who were moved out of the way for the TV monitor will be alright. Maybe the church will take up a special offering to install higher-tech monitors that won’t be blocked by, *gasp*, congregation members who are directed to the front by an egotistical pastor, who then tells them to “move over, and they all fell down”! Sorry – song reference – couldn’t resist.
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WHAT!?! White slavery? Wow, the man may have lost his marbles.
Yeah, really. It’s kinda hilarious… and thousands of people still attend.
Its very hard to have some respect for someone who blogs like this.
You have totally forgotten 911. Rather I dont think you have the heart to understand what happened there in the first place.
So glib, so yep. I really think that people who cannot cope with the reality of the demonic things that happen in this earth talk like this.
You ought to go join up with a cult yourself and stop the mask wearing sherade. And to compare this with the catholic church? How did this get approved for the site public? This site seems to be going down hill. Waay down. Just tragically wierd. So trashy. And you cant even see it at all can you?
Tim,
Thanks for reminding us about 911. We kept sitting here wonding what this talk was all about…all the while forgeting about what happend on Sept 11th.
Thanks so much for clearing things up.
Catholic priests rape little boys. That’s why they are comparable to Muslims.
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Tim you hate it, but yet you sure do like reading it. Maybe you can’t cope with the demonic things that are happening at some churches? Maybe deep down you love the tragically wierd and trashy things of this world. And you cant even see it at all can you??
Reformer,
No. I dont come to this site often and read. I have heard some constructive criticism about CBC in the past.
Im curious as to what is being said here and why. The mentality and attitude of the folks. So far I am not very impressed. Sorry.
I live in this world and I do my best to deal with it. Thats why I wrote. The tragically wierd and trashy things are sickening to me and they are too predictable to be very interesting. Just like trashy filmage is as well. Its interesting that the analysis is so quick, cynical and fatal. I really can do without the darkness in this world and even in me too. But Im stayin in it in hopes that the lord is bringing gold out of it all. Out of all of us.
One other thing to think on. Real perception and reason does not come automatically. Those my friends only come through much pain and experience. We should take care in what we profess and splutter.
“Real perception and reason” as you put it (as opposed to perception and reason) usually comes from science:
Darn. And here we were trying to impress you.
Sorry. I couldn’t resist.
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Well thank you for actually coming back and commenting. I respect that you have the balls to do that and are willing to face the firing line. A lot of people just come on here yelling and screaming about how dumb and stupid this blog is and how bitter everyone is and blah, blah, blah, then they disappear never to be heard from again. The problem is they have no clue or understanding of how close many contributors were to the situation, the personal harms/injuries that many went through at the hands of a corrupt leadership, and the lack of apologies or even willingness to listen to complaints and concerns. That’s why this blog exists. It gives a voice to those in the background who were otherwise shunned into the abyss, with no place to air all the dirty laundry of places that have built an empire on stepping on or over people in the name of faith and commitment, and silence anyone who tries to speak out (under the guise of being a good little Christian).
Based on your curiosity as to what is being said here and why, I can assume you have either never been apart of a church like this OR if you have, you have yet to be deeply involved with the inner workings so as to see the abuses that take place or been the focus of personal attacks due to an inability to conform. Whatever it is, there is no way to really understand until you experience it first hand. If you want to know what this is all about, here’s the general cycle of what myself (and others I know) have gone through:
1) Membership. You join the church and get excited by all the new wonderful people who seem so loving and accepting, nice, genuine, and caring.
2) Involvement. You get plugged in and join a few ministry groups, start volunteering with 1 or 2 Sunday/Wednesday programs/events. Social calendar goes from 1 event a week to 5.
3) Recognition. You meet a couple of the main pastors/leaders in the church and get invited to a few exclusive things they are involved in. Start getting more and more attention from fellow members.
4) Speaking. You start speaking/sharing at some of the meetings/services/events. More and more people start trying to befriend you, talk to you, get to know you.
5) Leadership. You move to a more prominate position/role in the church. Usually means more responsibility, more influence, and eventually a permanent position as a leader/head of a ministry program or even a paid position. Also means it is time to conform.
6) Discovery. Eventually you soon find out that things aren’t as they appear. The main pastor/leader soon asks that you start acting/dressing a different way that is more in line with the customs of the church, perhaps told to start driving a different car, maybe move to a different neighborhood, change the people you hang out with, stop all forms of secular activities (movies, drinking, nigh clubs, etc.). Basically you are forced into giving up all individuality and become indoctrinated into how these people tell you to think, act, talk, and live.
7) Burn out. After months (even years) of seeing the sort of sketchy behind the scenes dealings, or being put in the fire too much, you start asking questions. This is when everything starts changing.
9) Leave. Eventually you can’t take it anymore. The gossip, backstabbing, lose of friendships and overall sadness at the separation from something that you once held so near and dear, leads to a break-up, where you decide to go somewhere else.
10) Silence. After leaving you are generally upset and angry at the way you were treated and make an effort to try and talk with those you used to minister arm and arm with. However, all you get is silence. No one wants to hear from you, when you try to go back and make peace you are told to leave.
So you can see when this happens and you are told about a blog that allows you to go discuss what you went through with other people who went through the same thing, you jump at the chance to find some reliability and read stories from others who knew the very same people and experienced the very same things. Thus, even though this blog has been left for dead a dozen times, it comes back because there are always people who once thought this was a place of beat up, burned out, hypersensitive whiners UNTIL it happens to them. Then they flee to a place where they can no, they are not alone. That is where the Lord brings gold out of it all!
So true, The Reformer! Exactly the process I experienced my last 2 years at CBC.
… once I became a member, it was all happening SO fast…
What makes you think that we haven’t come through much pain and experience? Alot of the pain we’ve experienced was at churches like Frank’s. There’s nothing wrong with speaking up about what we endured and what’s wrong with what’s still going on there.
You obviously haven’t read alot of this blog if you don’t realize the reason we are here.
Hey! What happened to Stephen’s comment about me being pithy?? I AM pithy, dammit!
This is debatable at best.
Matthew 15:22-28 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.†Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.†He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.†The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!†she said. He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.†“Yes, Lord,†she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.†Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.†And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Many believe that Jesus was simply testing this woman to see how strong her faith and desperation was before granting her request. Others believe that Jesus had to treat her this way in front of other Jews because she was a Canaanite and it was “taboo”. However, I doubt that if I decided to “test” a black man’s faith in God by first calling him the n-word, and then said, “Just kidding, I was testing you!”, that he’d see it the same way. Not to mention that God DID play favorites: they’re called the Jews, you know, the ones he cut covenant with to be “His People”. I’m not saying that God loves one person more than another, but to say that Jesus never disrespected someone else’s beliefs or ethnicity seems a tad unrealistic.
Do you think that if Jesus met a Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, etc, and they asked him about their religion he’d say, “I respect your beliefs.”?
That said, I don’t think it’s a Christian’s job to go out of their way to offend people, we’re going to do that simply by being different and living different. And certainly, I’m sure that P Frank regrets his wording…talk about your classic blunders. That’d be like saying in front of a ton of Christians, “I’m gay!” and then trying to re-explain “Wait, I meant the old english form! You know, HAPPY!”
This is not about first amendment, otherwise those 3000 +/- mosques wont exist in America. I am a former Muslim, my advice is “read” the Bible and the Quran, then you will understand a bit. if you need more, then continue with “Understanding Sun Tzu on the Art of War”.
no further comment.
Dear Reformer and others,
Thank you for explaining this to me. I believe in openness and genuine honesty. My heart goes out to all that are in pain and trying to find healing in the shattered brokeness they have experienced. I too have been the victim of some real abuse. I had to leave the church after a divorce and legal attacks by a so called counselor named not a bell. What a sham.
So if this is a place to find some healing and care then so be it. But I think we should keep our attitudes in check. Remembering christians are the church. Not the other way around. The world should see our light, (character qualities and work) not too much back biting and hateful attitude.
You know, I think one of the most important things we need to do to keep us humble is to keep in mind the hypocrisy factor. Everyone has it and we all struggle with it. But if we deny it we are wrong and not really in touch with Gods will. It keeps us all humble too. More to be said on this.
Well, Good healing all.
God never discards his children as trash. Selah
By the way is there a sheparding leader for this site? Could be an opp. for someone.
Tim, here is the problem…we see a genuine issue with the theology, attitude, and actions of City Bible Church (and others). Now, we can choose to keep our mouths shut and let “the world” think that CBC represents all Christians or we can stand up and call bullsh*t.
Is it better that a false gospel be taught so that the (also false) appearance of unity remain?
Or… can we justly stand for righteousness?
What in the world do you mean by this? I’m very curious. I think you mean “make money off of”…to which the answer would be no. The crowd that visits this site is anti-Tithe.
Tim Said:
Tim,
At first I thought you were just kidding and I was going to say “Good one!” Lol.
If you are asking this as a serious question then I think you have a little detoxing to do to get the layers of deception off and step into the freedom of the Lord.
Jesus is our one true shepherd and he leads us into all truth – all others end up being idols and can’t do for you what only he can do.
Let the healing flow – it does come off in layers if you allow the Holy Spirit to undo the religious legalism accumulated under false shepherding teaching. It does take time and patience (and even some gold ol’ humor), but it can be done.
Hope you stick around.
Tim: “By the way is there a sheparding leader for this site? Could be an opp. for someone. ”
I am not going to speak for the site, but my shepard is Christ, all others I am shoulder to shoulder with in Christ
Tim, think of this site as a Wiki-blog or as Wiki-Shepherding (and no, the term Wiki has no Satanic implications). It is the gathering of minds or souls or kindred spirits that police the conversations being voiced. We don’t need one man/woman calling the shots and insisting on “their” way. This is at most a self moderating blog. If someone is off base, we are not deceived or ignorant of that–after all we escaped the clutches of Churches who thought they knew what was best for us. We really don’t need someone to interpret the scripture as if it were Latin and only the priests could divine its true meaning. We’re not babies anymore only eating Gerber mashed veggies. Our eyes are open to the full gospel and not just a narrow interpretation that suits our lifestyle. At least that’s the way I see it.
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Things are becoming more clear now.
So let me get this right. There really can be no tangible relationships resulting from all of this. No trust can be established here. and no one can be trusted or loved in a trust building way. Just bantering, and clowning around here. How is anything to be believed? Or to be taken seriously at all? Please tell me Im curious?
Does anyone here believe that the bible is the inspired word of God? Or is everything just loose and up for grabs. Sounds like a splutter orgie.
Someone can counsel me from here now. And I will surely believe it. If I do then I am a tumble weed. A cyber tumble.
What christ or spirit is it? There are many. Please tell. Im getting confused. Not.
Sorry if this offends. But Im really laughing now. You guys are killing me.
After saying this I can see some good relating going on amid all the green and brown gas. Its just for chuckles. From our gaseous pain we can vent a big one here. Wow that feels good.But smells a little toxic. pew.
Ok, I get it. Its a fun poke toward church goers. They deserve some pokes Im sure. Just dont get thinking your any better than they are. That would be a REAL good one.
Ill stick around a while.
Tim, you can’t expect any blog to be relational. That is not its function. Blogs are informational. Sure, we get to know each other to some extent. But there is no “trust building.” This is not a church, nor has anyone claimed it to be.
Why are you asking if “anyone here believes that the Bible is the inspired word of God”?
If you think that we are all just whining about church, I’m sorry. I think you have missed the point of this blog. Maybe you DO need counseling.
Tim,
Glad you came back and blogged your opinion. I agree with Anna, we aren’t trying to be a church! Maybe you got that impression when I said “Jesus is our one true shepherd and he leads us into all truth – all others end up being idols and can’t do for you what only he can do.” But I wasn’t referring to ‘our’ and ‘us’ as in this blog, I was referring to anyone who is a Christian, actually speaking of a biblical concept of making Jesus the center (so, yes, many of us on here believe in the bible as the inpsired word of God as far as I can tell).
I suppose certain voices on here come across as ‘better than’. I know I can get that way from time to time, but that isn’t my intent. I wish I had more patience with the christians in our old churches that actually believe they ARE better than others – more anointed and to be followed if you will. Point taken about sounding better than though, and I will try to remember to be more compassionate in future posts. That said, this isn’t exactly a lovefest blog either.
I think alot of us here like to have a place to ask questions that should be asked – after all, in many churches there is no forum to do so. Questions we ask here were frowned upon when we asked them in our former churches. As my good friend reminds me often – there should be no question you cannot ask.
What Anna says is over simple confusing rhetoric, And more hurt than any help. And yes I do solicit good counsel. From the word and The Spirit and others. I need it. We all do Anna. Oh well just silly cyber spacing. he he.
I like the idea of asking well thought out questions. However I think there are confused and hurting people coming to this blog who are really looking for belonging and “counsel” if you will. As Christians we have to keep in mind that every word and jesture counts and is recorded. No condeming intented or implied. I know that the Mosque dwellers will not teach any of these values. Oh that was a bigot thing to say…….. NOT. The Guspel is still the good news people. Not the Rospel or something. Sorry that was corny. But the point holds.
Also, The church belongs to the beliver in Christ. No one can own the gospel. or the place where it is talked of. Gods house is in us first not the other way around.
No one said it is easy. True christians must stay in the church. Dont bail out. Its not an option in my opinion. God Bless you all! Christmas is here. The children are calling and dancing. Come quickly Lord God Almighty. Let us be ready. Amen.
Oh, Tim, I’m sorry. I was trying to make a joke, but I guess I’m not very good at it. I was trying to emphasize that a blog can’t take the place of quality one-on-one working things out.
Also, on a blog, it’s hard to sort out the drive-bys from the truly hurting. There are no body language cues or personal information. And even if you do want to comfort someone, it’s a very difficult medium for that.
Lastly, I think you will find that most of the Christians here who are disillusioned with prosperity teaching and pastor/kings (as David M) calls them — we still love God and His word, and we have found other places to fellowship.
I think hurting people have found camaraderie in this blog, and it has helped. Our friend Detox is good at pointing people to good resources, and the founder Cat is excellent at helping people laugh at the silliness of some churches. That in itself is healing.
Again, sorry.
What I hear Tim is saying is true in of itself, but is not the whole picture. If (and I am not saying we are like this group) you heard the venting of one person at AA wouldn’t you say the group was invalid? Tim, how many threads have you read? Most of the Bloggers that I have read at this site have more scriptural back-up then I have heard in Sunday School. If you just read this one thread then maybe it is a little bare. Is your criticism based on this one topic?
Why? I disagree. With a false gospel being taught at so many churches (CBC, TCC, etc…) why should we stay in church and what does that have to do with my salvation?
Better no church then a lousy one, in my opinion.
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The “church” is not an organization or a building although American “Christians” like to believe it is. People who love Jesus and have a relationship with God are the church. We do not need an organization to gain access to God. Jesus already made the way.
FormerPBCPrez Are you joking? Hard to tell when you guys are pulling my leg like Cat does so well. I thought it was a fact that the church building was Gods House. Haven’t you ever heard why a Church would take on debt so as to build for the Glory of God? Don’t we get all dressed up to honor the physical Church? When was the last time a student was allowed to attend chapel barefoot? Sounds like a conspiracy to do away with the building committee. Please, please tell me your not serious….
Stephen, hard to tell whether you are joking.
Have you read Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24, and the words of Jesus upon leaving the temple for the last time? Matthew 23:38 (Elvis has left the building!)
So if buildings are no longer the “House of God” (God’s House), where is God’s house now?
1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19, et al.
God in ME. I AM God’s House. How therefore can I leave the church?
I am not the church because I sit in a silly building. I am the church because the Lord is IN ME – I AM HIS HOUSE.
1 Peter 2:5
“I am not the church because I sit in a silly building. I am the church because the Lord is IN ME – I AM HIS HOUSE.”
Let’s see how this works. God is in me, so when I tithe, I tithe to myself–because I am doing the work of ministry–my “Church” gets bigger–has more influence–because I am the Church doing God’s work?
IF I am a royal priesthood, I sure don’t act like it if I allow usurpers to claim to know God’s will over my life. If I am as much a priest as the “other” guy then IF it makes sense to join a Church or partner with another priest because in our synergy we can do more–then that is my choice. But, as a royal priest I don’t set aside my “inheritance or mantle” every time I go into Church–my priestly duties do not end when I go to Church.
I have told some (that could understand the dichotomy) that as Republicans we claim to want smaller government, lower taxes, and less regulation. Ironically as Christians we are Socialists–we give overseas with little or no oversight, we give (like a tax) to the Church unrestricted money for the Church to do the work of ministry, we are guided sometimes in the most minute detail “laws” that govern our spiritual walk. Really, is the Church the most efficient at meeting the needs of the poor? I know a Church that uses less then 3% of its budget for outreach. What happened to the other 97%? You know what the Feds standard for nonprofits is? The use of less then 40% of each donation for administration–and that number will get you audited for sure.
My problem is that I need to take back my rightful inheritance, my royal priesthood, my relationship to God, and my first right to minister as I see fit. Heck, I am a priest, I don’t need another priest tell me that he / she knows more then me, Thank You Very Much.
“My problem is that I need to take back my rightful inheritance, my royal priesthood, my relationship to God, and my first right to minister as I see fit. Heck, I am a priest, I don’t need another priest tell me that he / she knows more then me, Thank You Very Much.”
Amen!
I know I posted this on another post but it is relevant here too.
Ed Stetzer – The pastor who insists on being the focus of local ministry trains the body of Christ to sin; believers who demand all ministry to be done by “professionals†lead the pastor to sin. So who started all of this dysfunction? Was it the needy, consumer-driven congregation? Or was it the pastor, hungry for significance? It’s hard to tell. But to break the cycle, the enablers must stop enabling. God cannot receive glory in the church when pastors are always up front receiving the credit and doing the things that their consumerist congregants should be doing.
what do you guys think of Mark Driscoll’s Mars Hill church. It’s multi-campus with simulcast and I heard that they are opening a campus in Portland soon with the big man simulcasting from Seattle. I also heard that he’s opening a church (or campus) in Orange County. I’m not certain if it’s a church or simulcasted service to OC from Seattle.
Is Mars Hill now is falling into the same trap of pastor-centered church?
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Competition for CBC. Must be kinda scary.
Mars Hill is a Calvinist church that believes that women can not serve in any leadership in the church or home. If a guy is laid off of work and his wife is working, this is cause for church discipline, whatever that means.
Mark Driscoll is a self centered ego maniac. It started out as a no-head pastor run by elders. He fired everyone who he started the church with and now it is the Mark Driscoll show.
That being said the legacy of the early work can be seen in Soma Communities. I still do not agree with the Calvinist or complementarity doctrines but at least they have a great structure with no head pastor.
Nina,
Former NBCC gets a little bent out of shape about Mars Hill because of their views on women leadership…which has absolutely nothing to do with Calvinism by the way.
I don’t know if Mark Driscoll is a self centered ego maniac or not but I would say that his teaching is very Biblical and he does a great job of preaching the true gospel of Jesus.
He does spend a bit to much time with The City Church for me to feel completely comfortable but I still like his teachings.
Just to offer another perspective.
I kind of have to agree with NSQ. Driscoll is going the way of the celebrity preacher, instead of a local centered pastor. What started as a humble beginning has no turned into a grab for fame and attention. It happens to everyone though. It’s like I always say, fame is the most addictive thing that anyone can get. Once you get a taste of it, you will do anything to keep it growing, bigger and stronger.
And I have no problem with free enterprise, if a guy has the ability to build and empire and make lots of money, by all means go for it. Just don’t do it in the name of Jesus. That’s not what He lived or preached. Thus the satellite church thing is a bit rideculous. Just send out some elders to go and plant a new church for God’s sake. And would all these “pastors” stop with the countless money grubbing conferences. Again, a few here or there is a fine thing, but do you really need to speak at 2 and 3 a month? Plus there is something a little shady about charging people $150 to come hear a bunch of “Christian leaders” speak the same message they would speak on a Sunday for free, plus when they ask for an additional $100 – $200 for merchandise, special offerings, and honorareums…it just gets to a point of unacceptability. Corruption is a result of unaccountability. The more guys like Driscoll grow in fame and notoriety, the closer to corruption they become.
Personally, that is what soured me on Joyce Meyer Ministries, after I attended one of her conferences. I had to admire how “slick” their presentation was, but it was too much. Each session was “packaged” in length to show up on television, with excessive numbers of cameras in the meeting. During “worship” on the overheads was information for purchasing that song during the breaks. They only sang a couple of songs–kinda felt like you had to fit into their mold. Then all the merchandising tables that were in your face everywhere you turned. I felt like there were so many hawkers at the event marketing the message without time to digest the message. Of course I am labeled as a sexist for saying so?
Reformer: I could not agree with you more. I have been reading “The Organic Church” by Frank Viola and George Barna Take on the Modern Church
Read more at Suite101: What is the Organic Church?: Frank Viola and George Barna Take on the Modern Church http://www.suite101.com/content/what-is-the-organic-church-a164494
I have learned so much and I think its the answer to many of the problems that are posted on this site about what is wrong with church. We have good friends who want to start a church with the hierarchy model, I would have never thought they would have lead with a strong arm before they took this adventure. But the model itself is corrupt and good people can not handle that kind of “spiritual authority” that they believe they have. For me I now understand that its wrong and sinful, not the way God set up his church.
JohnPaul: I could not disagree with you more. No I do not like Mark Driscoll just because he is a complimentarian or to the radical extreme he takes it. I do not think he is preaching the gospel at all, I do not even think he understands it. He doesn’t get the freedom in Christ because of his Calvinist philosophy he is a slave to his religion and teaches others they are slaves. He goes against all that Paul was trying to undue in the letters to the early churches. He can not teach people to be victorious over sin in their lives because he still believes we are completely bound by our sin of Adam and can not be restored. So instead he gives a secondary message of Grace that covers us because what Christ did was not enough to restore us.
Please do not make arguments for my position I think I can do that myself.
Yeah, I’m not really interested in having the whole Arminian v Calvinism debate but I will say that my study of Calvinism absolutely freed me…so I have the opposite view of you on that point.
Making God sovereign (which is what Calvinism really boils down to, in my opinion) took a lot of preasure off of me and opened me up to serving God because He deserves it and not because I am trying to earn or prove anything.
I do realize that both sides of the arguement can make a valid Biblical case so I don’t really care which side you are on…but think its silly to bash either side. Both have great points that we can learn from.
Just my 2 cents.
Johnpaul Morton: “Yeah, I’m not really interested in having the whole Arminian v Calvinism”
Yea, me neither this has been done over and over again for the last century. I will say that Calvinism is not the mainstream and Arminiaanism is. From Wikipedia:
Advocates of both Arminianism and Calvinism find a home in many Protestant denominations, and sometimes both exist within the same denomination as with the Puritans. Faiths leaning at least in part in the Arminian direction include Methodists, Free Will Baptists, General Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Church of the Nazarene, Seventh-day Adventists, The Salvation Army, Mennonites, Pentecostals, and Charismatics. The majority of Southern Baptists, including Billy Graham, accept Arminianism with an exception allowing for a doctrine of eternal security.
Denominations leaning in the Calvinist direction are grouped as the Reformed churches and include Particular Baptists, Reformed Baptists, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists. Many see Calvinism as growing in acceptance
Mark Driscoll is listed on the Wikipedia page for modern day Calvinist.
And being an Arminianist has freed me from my sin because I know what Christ did on the Cross was enough and it was finished. That I have been restored to the creation as God intended, not with out mistake but with out the predisposition to sin as it was with Adam. I have my communication restored directly with God through the Holy Spirit and because of the blood of Christ I am righteous (not because of me) and can go directly to the Father and pray that his kingdom reign in my life again as it was with Adam. Romans 5:12-21
So freeing knowing that God created me to be a free thinker, to be a creator like him with the ability to change my environment. That I have come to God on my own free will because he deserves it not because I was predestine to do so. That I continue to serve God and worship Christ because he is worthy of my life and not because I was created to do so.
In my opinion God already had angels who did not have freewill, so he created Man (and woman) in his image.
Sorry not arguing the Calvinist Arminianism just answering your comment about why you think Calvinism is freeing and why I think the opposite.
Former, I love it.
I do think there are a lot of holes in both teachings and currently take the “Somewhere in the middle / It’s a mystery” stance, but am glad you found peace.
Calvinists are OK. But God help ya’s if ever you run into a marauding band of Calvinistas. They don’t take prisoners.
Our ladies’ Bible study is tackling this very issue this evening. This is the first time we have diverted from studying an actual Bible passage, and chosen to study a subject.
This came about because there are many subjects that have come up, where the majority of the ladies have only heard the terms, and are unfamiliar with the actual teaching.
It should be really interesting, because our teacher vows she is a Calvinist, and while I think it has good points, I’m really not. But when we discuss it with each other, we find that we agree on almost everything.
And we also agree that this will not be a “sword fight,” but a desire to learn what the Bible says with the ultimate goal That I may know Him…
Anna:
Please do tell how your Bible study went? I would love to hear its conclusions.
Well, we did not get any further than the historical background of the reformation and Calvin, and beginning to define terms. So it will continue. I’ll try to keep you posted if you are interested.
Very interested. I wonder what happens in a bible study as people look into these doctrines (specifically Calvinists vrs Arminianism) with out the hierarchical dictator telling them what they are supposed to believe.
My thought would be that a objective person studding this would come to the same conclusion that most main stream Christianity has come to that is Arminianism – some with an exception for “Eternal Security” or “Once Saved always saved”. But who knows –
So yes, please update I am interested to the direction your bible study goes
A friend at church has a (real) Mdiv from Multnomah. After talking about this subject with her for awhile, I expressed the idea that I believe God invites us to surrender to Him. And inherent in the invitation is the grace to accept.
My friend told me this is an actual doctrine called “prevenient grace”, and that it is a component of Wesleyan-Arminianism. Well, then, I guess that is probably closer to what label I might wear.
Our teacher is not the type to dictate doctrines. She is also interested in what the Scriptures say and it’s a discovery for all of us.
Anna,
I’m super excited. After attending PBC & CBC – and becoming “like” them, I see right through it. It really makes me sad, rather than sick. Sad, sad, sad, that I didn’t see it before – and sad, because 98% of my friends there have completely turned to ignoring me and couldn’t care less. But, you know what? I’m making new friends, and starting to get back to my feet. I’m in a great church, and though I haven’t gotten involved in any ministries yet, I plan on doing so in the next year or so. I’m just allowing myself time and room to grow and re-learn. Granted, the friends I still have from my life @ PBC & CBC are strong friends, good friends – and friends I knew would always be friends. Anyone else may call me bitter, but I don’t think I come across that way… I don’t know. Maybe it’s the pickup line for anyone who has a conflict in their spirit about the whole thing.
I am seriously looking into attending Multnomah. I would love to ultimately pursue a Master’s of Arts in Counseling. Because I attended PBC, a completely unaccredited college, most, if not all, of my credits are unable to be transferred. I think I have over 100 of them. Starting over at the point where I should be starting a family, moving out, and gaining ground is a very frustrating place to be, but once this is all over, I hope to have learned & I hope to have grown in my relationship with the Lord… cutting off those little pre-conceived notions I picked up over the years.
Granted, my family has been my strong poing and the reason I didn’t turn my back on “Christianity” in the first place. I’ve always been strong and always been terrified to turn away, because that would be denying Christ & there are eternal ramifications at stake. I’ve never doubted the Gospel, and I just hope to have things straighten out over the next few years. Thank you, all, for being here for us. I’m so grateful for my family here & my family at home. I’m so blessed… and God knows what He’s doing.
Anyway, I like that you mentioned Multnomah. I don’t really care if I have to start over, except the financial aspect, but He always provides what I “need”. If this is something I am supposed to do, and I feel strongly that it is, then it will happen. I’ll continue to pray about it.
Blessings to you all. And, even if there are arguments about who is the least favorite blogger, please don’t stop. On days when I am particularly frustrated with the way I chose to go the last few years, I find encouragement knowing I don’t feel this way all by myself. And, even if those years were “wasted’, I think it honestly helped me realize it was not a healthy place to be. So, as terrible as it was, it was a blessing in disguise. I love how the Lord works that way.
“Trust in the Lord with ALL your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.”
Thanks all!
~NSQ
I’m starting to appreciate Multnomah since many in our congregation are either graduates or staff — wonderful people!
I’m super excited! My friends who attend have nothing but great things to say about it. If I could, I’d start right away, but that’s not feasible or wise, in my case. Haha! Can’t wait to set up a time to go in and meet some people, and take a look around.