Pasted below are two emails I received from someone close to MFI. In the first email, Frank Damazio explains to the members of MFI that Wendell Smith has resigned his leadership role and The City Church is no longer a member of MFI. In the second email, Dick Iverson offers his thoughts on Wendell's decision to leave.
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Dear MFI,
Greetings and blessings on you all! Summer is quickly coming to an end but the Fall is a great time for churches as we all begin to gear up for a new season. At MFI, we are also gearing up and seeing lots of momentum for the MFI October Annual Conference. This letter is to communicate a change that has taken place with Pastor Wendell Smith’s involvement with MFI. Wendell has resigned his leadership role and withdrawn as a member of MFI, along with Judah Smith. He feels a different direction for himself and his local church leaders. Although I know this change will be a surprise to many, it does not affect our relationship with Wendell and Gini. We love them and will continue our friendships with them and their leaders. There is no problem between Wendell and myself or between Wendell and the Apostolic Leadership Team; this is a philosophy difference, not a relational one. The Apostolic Leadership Team is working together with amazing unity. Bob MacGregor and Mike Servello, the Vice-Chairmen, are working together with the ALT and myself in a very fruitful manner. The fellowship is strong with great signs of momentum as we approach the Fall conference. We have a steady stream of new pastors and new support ministry seeking to join MFI. Bro. Dick is also involved as much as he wants to be at this season of life. We are working together and I am thrilled to have his strength and wisdom alongside all of us. All in all, we are having a great time and I believe we will continue to impact the world for Christ. I love you all and pray for you all. I am truly pumped about our Fall conference. We have some great things to introduce, some great reports to give, and some awesome soaking time in God’s presence. Blessings on you all, Frank Damazio —————————————————————————— Dear MFI family,
Greetings in Jesus’ name. Let me first thank you for all your prayers, cards and letters sent during my surgery and for my birthday as well. I am doing great and have recovered very quickly from this major ordeal. I am so saddened by Wendell’s decision to withdraw from membership in MFI, along with Judah, the new pastor of The City Church. I know that Wendell & Gini love all of us but they have chosen to go a different direction but maintain a good relationship with all of us. We need to continue to pray for Wendell & Gini as this is a major decision for them. We love them and please don’t read into this that there is any problem between us as that is absolutely not true. We must also continue to contend for Wendell’s healing. I believe that MFI, under the direction of our new Chairman and the Apostolic Leadership Team, has a bright future. I am supporting Pastor Frank with all my heart and strength. He is a great leader. I am believing that the Lord is going to bless us with continued growth around the world. I look forward to seeing all of you at the conference in October. In His name, Dick Iverson Founder, Ministers Fellowship International
Chairman, Ministers Fellowship International
I’ll probably offer my thoughts on this later. But I am very intersted in hearing what others think about this move.
My initial thought is that Judah Smith has no interest in being under Frank Damazio. And Judah basically made the call. But who knows. Anyway, I gotta say, I like the move. It’s ballsy.
So if everything is fine between them all, what is the philosophy difference? If they are all getting along so great, why quit? Is Wendell starting his own little kingdom? Oh wait, he already has. For some reason he must not need them anymore. Very strange to me since MFI is a powerful mafia. Sounds like Kirkland took over their own territory. I wonder how long this will last?
That is the $64,000 question.
I wonder if this is over the leadership issue. Again, Wendell passed up by Dick in favor of Frank? These guys get all upset if they aren’t worshipped.
I don’t know… I think it’s a wise decision. I can understand that City Church perhaps, will do fine on it’s own. Why does the leadership team of MFI call itself the Apostolic Leadership Team? Apostolic? I thought that was reserved for the apostles who walked with Jesus (and Paul)… or am I mixing that up with disciples?
I’m surprised, too. But to quote somebody… Follow the money. Do MFI churches “tithe” to the MFI headquarters? Maybe they just don’t want to support the “apostles” anymore. Just a guess?
Or maybe they just don’t think Frank is king of all that he sees (to quote Yertle the Turtle)?
@ NSQ: It’s become the new thing for church corporate administrators to call themselves “apostles.” It became popular with C. Peter Wagner, Chuck Pierce and Dutch Sheets. They have divided up the US (and maybe the world) into districts and named themselves apostles over areas. Look up the term “New Apostolic Reformation” (or NAR) and have a fun time reading … for days … weeks…
This IS interesting…
It seemed the 2 churches (TCC, CBC) were very close…Frank just spoke at TCC a month or 2 back, Judah was a speaker at UG Conference (and is scheduled to be next year) this year, and Frank came to speak to all the leaders/youth pastors at the GC conference in march….
It could just be that it’s MFI they don’t agree with, but since CBC and MFI have the same beliefs…
My guess: It has to do with all the grace teaching and Judah’s focus on God’s love/sacrifice v.s. our works/worthiness. He’s mentioned that he gets some flack for that from the older crowd, but it’s probably coming to a head.
Also, Judah rolls with Hillsong now. He speaks at the youth conference and Hillsong conference next to people like Joyce Meyer and TD Jakes. He’s pretty much best friends (or so the pics/twitter/messages indicate) with Carl Lentz, the new pastor for Hilsong New York.
He preached at Joel Osteens church. (so did benny perez). I’m thinking that he’s making his own little crew, with him on the West Coast, Carl Lentz/Joel Houston and Hillsong NY on the east, and Rich Wilkerson Jr. in Miami down south. (another member of the crew)
Add in friends like Benny in Las Vegas and Joel Osteen, and he’s more national/international than MFI. They probably feel that they don’t need them.
Also, I know Marc Driscoll is his friend (he just preached at TCC on Sunday) and MFI is being vocal (internally) about Driscolls views on women. His friendship with him might have been called into question as well…
lots to think about here…but end result: bad for MFI. Judah and co were half of the big “success story” of MFI…
Yertle the Turtle is onto something here.
As much as I make fun of Judah, I genuinely believe he’s the future of the MFI-style church. He probably figured he could start his own church “network” and be just as successful as MFI. And he probably can.
Anna asked, “Do MFI churches “tithe†to the MFI headquarters?”
Actually, no, they don’t. The senior pastor’s “contribution” is based on the following giving scale. I don’t know if the number used is the one pastors tell each other when asked how the church is doing or the real number. At any rate, it is expected to be paid by the senior pastor’s church.
Population – Monthly Rate
0-50 $60
50-100 $85
100-150 $115
150-200 $175
200-300 $230
300-400 $290
400-500 $350
500-1000 $400
1000-2000 $450
2000+ $500
I don’t have the exact details on the philosophical differences between the Smiths and MFI but I believe it may fall into two areas. Even though he is viewed by many as a rising “superstar†pastor, Judah has had more success in growing a following with a younger group of pastors than the aging MFI leadership, just as anonymous said above.
And Wendell at one time was viewed in competition for Frank as the heir apparent as Been there done that said above. I believe his health would certainly prevent that now, but sources say he wanted to make MFI a more exclusive group – composed of “sons of the house†and the churches they have sent out as such. In other words, to make MFI have a more direct bloodline than the eclectic group it now has become. Frank wanted to keep things as it has been in recent years. If you look at MFI history, Bro. Dick wanted to keep things pure in the beginning himself – his group of pastors originally were just those who he had very close ties to and in most cases, had been sent out by Bible Temple or PBC.
Yeah this is probably in response to a complete philisophical difference in theology. Judah is going the way of Joel Osteen and Hilsong (as someone mentioned). These churchs preach pure love, inclusion of everyone, openess that is almost cult like, no consequences, no hell, just love and happiness all the time. YouTube them if you’ve never heard the kind of crazy stuff that comes out of their mouths. Either way, it’s just further proof that MFI and CBC really are falling out of favor with the more prominate Christian evangelical establishments. Franky real knows how to push people away. I’m guessing his “bigotry” statements didn’t settle to well with some people (at least the smart ones).
Plus Jude is planting his own church in California. ALotttt of changes coming!
I thought Brother Dick won’t be involved with MFI. Why does the letter say he is involved, “as much as he wants to be at this season of life”? Now I’m confused. I’m glad he will be involved in MFI (he has all the right to be)… but why have a going-away gift if he’s continuing to be involved?
I discussed this very issue with a pastor the other day, and I think most of the stuff being discussed is very close to the truth.
1. Judah and Wendell were already operating as “apostles” to churches outside the MFI circle. TCC is probably (or I should say was probably) the strongest mega-church in MFI. (Although if you look statistically and focus more on church attendance vs. total population of an area, TCC wasn’t exactly beating down Satan’s door). My belief was that Wendell had some basic issues with P. Frank that were bound to come to a head eventually, and I think that at the end of the day, it’s difficult for any leader to be “led” by another leader who hasn’t seen their level of “success”.
2. Truthfully, I think Judah has stars in his eyes about the prospect of being on that “Hillsong” level. I heard a recent sermon where he interjected about speaking at Hillsong Conf., and it all seemed a little…eh…celebrity I guess is the word. It was like he was saying, “well, I was there with Jentzen, TD, Brian, Joel, and Andy Stanley, and I was saying, ‘Jesus…I need you more than ever!” Really? Cause if you were speaking to someone else you wouldn’t need Him as much? Anyway…
3. There comes a time when you outgrow stuff. MFI, despite its appearance because of churches like tcc, is based mostly on small churches. Almost 80% of its base population is churches of 200 or less. At some point, when you’re the “top dog” you have to get resourcing from someone who’s more successful than you, not less.
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My understanding is that he’ll be involved “on paper”, i.e., he’ll be there shaking hands and kissing babies at the international, but probably won’t be very involved beyond that. Kind of like a president after he’s not president anymore. You still call him “Mr. President,” but his role is mostly hospital openings and such. Unless you’re Bill Clinton…
Overall, this is a huge blow for MFI. I think that some of their legitimacy came from churches like TCC. I kind of wonder if any others (like Capital Christian in Boise, as we know that Ken is related to Wendell and certainly follows the City model more than anything else) are going to follow suit and abandon ship. How many churches has TCC planted since it was founded? That’ll be a huge blow to MFI if ALL those churches leave.
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I’ll say this: Brother Dick had absolutely NO part in choosing Frank. He pushed Bob MacGregor like a freaking drug dealer pushing heroin laced with crack. I assure you, Frank was chosen by the ALT as a whole. Bro. Dick wasn’t even at the meeting as far as I know.
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Tough question to answer. It depends on if you’re dispensationalist or not. If you’re not, Paul talked about the five fold ministry as being a true expression of the church, and he didn’t say, “BTW, the apostles you see today are the only apostles that will ever walk the earth.” Saying that apostles don’t exist today is like saying that maybe prophets, or teachers don’t exist, and that we’re all just “pastors” with a bunch of different skill sets. I don’t know though…I believe in apostles because I believe that, in general, the ministry gifting of “pastor” is very defined, in the same way that each of the five fold giftings is specific. A pastor is one who cares for the people, guides them, nurtures them. But who’s the guy telling the shepherd where the good grass is? There’s got to be someone who is guiding the shepherd who is guiding the sheep.
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tcc has not planted any churches except for their dc campus and now I guess City Church Ventutra. They are not a church planting church. Nor will they most likely ever be a church planting church, that takes actual raising others up and sending them out to plant. Not sure thats their gig.
What about The City Church San Diego, Harbor City Church and The City Church Central Coast. All of these are in their “network” of churches. I’m pretty sure, Judah is planning his own version of MFI.
“What about The City Church San Diego, Harbor City Church and The City Church Central Coast. All of these are in their “network†of churches. I’m pretty sure, Judah is planning his own version of MFI.”
Your right about those, and about 10 others. If you walk down the right entry door hall (by the Admin desk) in the Kirkland Office you will see about 10 other “Affiliated” churches and their SR Pastors (Not including the ones you listed above). I forget what they call it, but it is a direct Apostleship type of relationship. They all use the City Church leadership Traks, all have the same doctrines, and most have the word City in the name. Including a Church in Portland (not CBC).
Also in the family they have Perez in Las Vegas and the other church that helped plant DC, not sure how they are related but they are.
I have fun with Pastor Judah as much as the next guy. But he can preach and for the most part is entertaining, and Wendell and Gini broke the missionary Code in Seattle (so did Mars Hill – although I am no fan of Driscoll) I do believe deep down in my heart they are an Apostolic ministry, if you agree with them or not their influence is very very large. And Wendell really started in Seattle with very little help.
San Diego was a plant ( kind of, they didnt want them to go so they were more went then they were sent, nice little saying among those guys. people who leave are sent, went or bent. ) Central Coast was not that was the church that rocky tannehill sp pastored and brought it under city church which he ended up moving on and they sent fred kropp. Harbor, well I guess that would be a plant, but heck that was an easy plant there.
I forgot about SD in my first post and Harbor.
So I guess they have planted 3. The rest of the network are all churches that were or are or maybe not anymore in MFI that ended up becoming a “network” church, whatever that means.
Well that means Capital Christian Center in Boise and Ken Wilde are soon to follow since Wendell pretty much does everything first and his cousin Ken follows!
Just today at TCC Judah hosted the Catalyst One Day church Leaders confernce, with Andy Stanley, Graig Groeschel, Mark Driscoll and others.
He connects with them and also the others I mentioned above. Plus, add in Carl Lentz at Hillsong NY and Benny Perez at Church of South Las Vegas, and he really doesn’t need the old-school MFI guys telling him to quite down on the grace message and get everybody holy. (not saying I agree 100% with his positions, just that this is the likely scenario)
Judah is trying to be a 21st century people’s pastor, and not part of some 1950′s Latter Rain group…
After being on the inside and seeing how these folks act, my stomach turns after reading all of this. It’s amazing to me that the organized church makes superstars, gives them power and money and then worships them. The sad part is that these folks who are being glamorized actually start believing that they are something special. private chefs, drivers, expense accounts, jets, fancy clothes and the like, these guys are swept up in a world that is probably hard to resist, all in the name of Jesus. What ever happened to loving people, working with a team of folks who want others to know Jesus personally, and worshipping God not hype and superstar pastors and leaders?
I don’t know, when they start believing their own press releases & power over people, it’s all down hill. I wonder if any of them know what it’s like to live a normal life, go to work, try and pay the bills and love their neighbor? I don’t think they know how to do that any more.
Rock Star Christianity. Oh boy.
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Seems I remember rumblings of both Wendell and Ken leaving MFI 5 or 6 years ago before we left CCC. I remember there being an aloofness between them and Frank – we saw it first hand when we had to pray that Ken would get a chance to speak about the NPC at the MFI conferences. It was never easy on either side, for Frank to give up a spot to Ken who wanted ppl to donate to the NPC, and for Ken to be treated like the unwanted brother. We assumed Frank wanted all the money to go to his books judging by the looooooong commercials for them before every session and begrudged Ken getting any of it. – eyeroll
Anyway, I think the Wendell kingdom was forming long before Judah became pastor and Judah is just carrying on the family line. For some ODD reason ppl in the megachurch slash Hillsong culture really get off on his style which makes me shake my head bcz I think he stinks. But what do I know, I think hillsong stinks too. (did I really say that in public?)
It’s funny, though, to hear some of you refer to Judah making the decision to leave MFI. Do you really think the likes of Wendell and Gini just sit idley by while their son calls the shots.? Ya, whatever! He may have the final vote but you can bet he, in his newness to the senior pastor post, is relying heavily upon the leadings of his parents and brother in law Benny Perez (who never DID join MFI btw). PPL who have had the power do not relinquish it easily. Isn’t that one of the main reason to make your son your successor?
Thus the number of twitter followers. I just don’t get the celebrity buzz about him…
Also, I doubt the 2nd generation EVER had to live a normal life and pay normal bills and I wonder if they ever talk with their neighbors…
But i just don’t get any of them. period. It’s like they are on their own planet.
Judah the superstar .. well maybe, but as a kid growing up he was always poor – he was the son of the Youth Pastor at Bible Temple for “” sakes. Grew up in SW Portland. After moving to Seattle (ok Bellevue ) to make thing worse they were in a very very wealthy district of the Puget Sound – making them even seem more poor by those around them.
Judah and his sister Perez for that matter is a 7th or 8th Generation Pastor. So the whole “pass to your kid” thing is quite normal in there family.
It is soooo odd that Mark Driscoll is hanging out so much with TCC these days, he is so anti-women in leadership. Gini is still the Executive Pastor (IE Chief Executive Officer) making most of the day to day decisions relinquishing more and more to Judah and Chelsea as they grow into their positions. I really do not think Wendell is doing any day to day (health) but would have been very much apart of this discussion on removing the Church from MFI and the direction of the “Network”.
Well might not be too odd, Mark Driscoll did preach at a 4square conference for Church Planters not too long ago – 4square not only believes in Women SR Pastor’s they where started by one.
Ok, that was a whole bunch of un-connected rambling – I am just interested in how this all turns out.
Superstar?
Hardly think so. Outside of the small church world of evangelicals most people have no clue about Pastor Judah or Wendell.
City church really did not crack the Seattle code. Thats like saying Christian Faith Center cracked the Seattle code when in fact its located in Federal Way. City Church is still mostly suburbanites recycled from the eastside who left other congregations (I.E. Overlake, etc. etc.) to build its core base.
You have to give Marshill its props though. In many ways it cracked the Seattle code in terms of being a rather large congregation fairly close to downtown Seattle made up mostly of people who probably wouldn’t be in church. I think that Mark Driscoll is doing a wise thing by developing a relationship with those outside of his normal circle.
One last thing on the topic of Apostles.
It is possible for a person to have an apostolic gift. But for one to claim they hold the office of an apostle is a bit arrogant IMO.
In 1 Cor.4:9 Paul explains what it was to be an apostle.
. for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. And we labor, working with our own hands.
The description given by the Apostle Paul hardly sounds like anyone in “Christian Hollywood”
In 1 Corinthians 9 the apostle Paul lays out a pretty good guide line of what types of things follows the “office” of Apostles. 1) You had to be an actual witness of Christ in his body, and 2) Unusual dramatic signs and wonders.
The bible and history shows that all of the apostles were killed and persecuted for their faith. Unlike most of those who claim to be apostles today. I would imagine that if anyone could claim to be an apostle its probably some guys in China or Central Asia or the deepest darkest places of the muslim world. Planting churches in hard places where there is no light of the gospel.
Just something to think about.
Right. Though, they are superstars within their congregations. Which I think leads them to believe that they are liked outside of their small world. And this is what has them starting up City Churches all over the US. As though it’s some type of well-known brand. It isn’t.
But you know who also is really at fault here. The Christians who attend these churches and treat these pastors as celebrities. It’s pathetic, but ultimately will never stop until Christians stop treating church like a concert.
I am guilty. I did. For many years I was caught up in it all. I always knew in the back of my mind that something was wrong. The Bible doesn’t teach what they do- so you have to learn it. God does not create classes of believers.
It was because I was insecure and wanted so badly to be needed. Jesus was not enough for me. That’s how they get staff people. They find a talented person with a big weakness, accept them and then use that weakness to exploit them.
Everyone enjoys being told they are valuable and needed. Unfortunately those of us that suffer with being insecure can be used by folks who want to be worshipped. They know all the right things to say to us, to keep us strung along, putting in the hours while they go on elaborate vacations, get a huge salary and expect us to jump when they say too. But you know what? I liked it when leadership told me I as special, that I was good at what I did. It stroked my ego.
The problem is that when I got more healthy emotionally, and began to realize I had a problem, the illusion started to wear off. In fact when I began to confront issues, the attack became centered on me. Classic abuse.
These folks wouldn’t be the rock stars if we didn’t feed their dillusion. Honestly, their power is strong and they know many people. Unless you are on the inside you really don’t know their behavior. Even when you are on the inside there is danger of being like them because power and fame feel good. Going along with what they say has rewards, and opposing them brings horrid stressful consequences.
The most courage I have ever had to muster came when meeting some of the big guys in MFI and opposing them. They really do belive that they are apostles and the anointed ones. They aren’t open to listen to the “little” guys- and they honestly believe they have the handle on it all. Self anointed and self appointed. They are cocky and arrogant.
I am glad I am free of it, but sadly it has left scars that I ask Jesus to heal. It has taken years, and I still haven’t fully recovered. Bottom line, Jesus is better than MFI leaders, he is my security, what he says about me is far more important than Wendell, Judah, Frank or Dick.
It’s so hard to find a church now because trusting people, especially leaders, is VERY hard.
Please pray for me.
TheMidge: “1) You had to be an actual witness of Christ in his body, and”
I do not think this is the case at all. He asks several questions here about his self.
1Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
That word apostle is Strong’s Number G652 matches the Greek ἀπόστολος (apostolos),
this word is translated in the KJV/NIV as Apostle and Messenger (or Representative as in 2 Corinth 8:23). Paul used the word loosely to be anyone who was sent by God on a mission.
The office of Apostolos is a Gift from God in my opinion .. a gift of administration. Administrating the business of the church, such as building the church, church planting, and overseeing the plans and organization of the church.
What do you think it is? and why>?
One thing (well, one of many) I have never understood was how “Great” Christian leaders pass their ministries on to their sons or daughters. Is God’s mantle transferrable? If “Pastor Joe” was called to the ministry does God’s mantle end up in his will? I am sure all the Apostles of old had children, did they automatically become mini-Apostles because their Pops were in Jesus’ ministry? “Hey son, when I die, this mega-ministry will all be yours.” Really? This thread would lead right into the transference of “God’s anointed”. “Yes, my son did inherit my ministry, how dare you question his credentials or anointing? The gibberish that he is speaking is anointed gibberish. The false doctrine he is preaching is anointed false doctrine!”
Well said Stephen, and I would question any church that does this.
Hey, I’ve been there too. Definitely. I’m not judging, as much as I’m saying this type of behavior from pastors would stop immediately if the congregation just stopped treating them like they were so special.
I will pray for you, “Been there done that”. I identify with much of what you shared.
The Lord is your portion…and He is SO much more satisfying than the empty praise of man.
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It’s not about passing on anointing. It’s about the fact that when you act like these folks behind the scences, you have to have your family take over. People that aren’t related eventually wise up. It’s a protection situation. Blood is thicker than water. The old saying- you can pick your friends, but you can’t pick your family. Dysfunctional power control is what is going on here.
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Thank you so much- most people don’t understand when I share. In fact I get labeled bitter and hurt. So I just quit sharing and simply have good and bad days. Funny how that kind of abuse sticks with you over the years. Certain things trigger it. Then all those feelings come back. ick. But you are right, if I keep my eyes on Jesus and avoid MFI Kirkland and Portland Clones, I do pretty well. I certainly go to church now for a completely different reasons.
Everyone on here gets the same treatment. The key, in my opinion, is to not be bitter and hurt. Of course, if you are bitter and hurt, then maybe talking to someone or therapy might help. For me, this blog has been therapeutic. Not that I was ever really bitter or hurt, but it has allowed me to see just how ridiculous everyone at MFI is.
Been There Done That…you are not alone.
After 10+ years of being out of the religious system I have discovered more truth then I could have ever known living in the oppressive control of these establishments.
If you have time search through some of the historical posts on here. We’ve discussed “rock star Christianity,” had similar stories of abuse as yours, and most importantly used humor to prove how utterly ridiculous these churches are. This blog is the reason why I don’t mind speaking out against the idiotic lifestyle that comes with attending these churches, because all the endless stories are proof that they are corrupt. If it was just a few “bitter” people then maybe I wouldn’t be so outspoken against them. But because it’s so many hundreds if not thousands of people…well as they say, the proof is in the pudding.
Thanks. I wish I could change what happened, but that isn’t possible now. I don’t feel that I am bitter, but I have been hurt. I wish I could trust again. That is what I am struggling with. After my MFI experience I had another denomination experience, almost worse. Same system, different name- Everyone building their little kingdoms and politics in the church- powerful leaders enjoying their power and money, and most of the followers completely unaware of the abuse that is going on. It makes you wonder about how church should really be done. I have a feeling we are way off from where it should be.
Been there done that, many of us had the same experiences as you, and I agree the whole model is upside down. A Preacher is a servent not a CEO. Can I ask what denomination you delt with after that?
Thanks,
It’s amazing how identical our paths all sound – even with the variations of our locations, or the degree of closeness we each were to the leadership, and such. Alot of us experienced pain at the hands of the leaders of the church which isn’t exactly what we signed up for when we wanted to help and it’s certainly not what God has in mind for the body of Christ. Those who didn’t experience that type of pain still went through the disillusionment of discovering all is not what it appeared to be. That can be quite a blow if you grew up in a church you thought represented the biblical way… It’s bound to put your whole faith on tilt for awhile.
It does create a distrust of leaders but in the long run that’s probably a good thing bcz we aren’t going to sign up for the same pain again too quickly. Not saying all leaders suck, just saying that we can appreciate the ones who are not tainted too terribly, but maybe now from a distance. It just makes more sense not to cozy up to leaders of churches when you’ve been burned by similar personalities.
Those who have been burned and do jump right back into servantude ave obviously not learned from their previous fiasco. And some people are simply drawn to abuse bcz it feels familiar and comfortable which could stem from childhood abusive situations that need to be dealt with. There is a married couple still on staff at our former church who both had a history of abuse and it seems to explain why they are still able to stay; even though they were the ones complaining of the bad treatment early on, way before those of us who blog here (from Boise) went on staff. That reminds me of another person on staff there after years of the same treatment who says strange things like “It hurts so good Pastor Ken.” Who says that??? SNL could have a field day with that one!
Anyway, this blog has been therapy for us and still is and it’s great to see others come along who say essentially the same things. Like Been There Done That said, we aren’t bitter but we have been hurt. We aren’t wallowing in it, just talking about our similar stories and it’s been good to know we aren’t the only ones on the planet duped by dysfunctional leaders with powerlust. Hopefully we have learned from it all. Glad those of us who have gone through similar junk have a place to let off steam, learn from each other, and laugh at all the snarky comments and funny videos!
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Foursquare
Been there done that: Funny, that is what we did, go from MFI to Foursquare, I can see how that happens in Foursquare as it is much more of a loosely networked set of churches that very greatly in theology then a denomination that is “Top down”.
I am still Foursquare and really enjoy the group I currently serve with. We have become church planters and I have taken everything I learned both in Church and here on these forums trying to implement a more christian or Christ like church.
Funny thing though, even though I am extremely charismatic in my doctrine we find that we are networking more and more with Baptists who church plant
Much less concerned with “competition and more concerned with starting new churches and getting people saved.
I do know what it feels like to be on staff of a church with a “SR Pastor – or Pastor couple” who is anything but .. a leader .. a Christian .. I did not want to serve in a church for 3-4 years after that, but after a while God still had a calling on my wife and I, so we picked up and found like minded people … not saying everyone has to follow our path .. just is. ..
Thanks. I just hope someday things will work out and we can be part of something significant in a good way. I’m so tired of the religious crap.
I guess that is where the “Cultic” perspective comes from, sitting in class at PBC learning about the concept of watching out for deception. Then years later looking back at the class and realizing that I was deceived about deception. Wasn’t the emphasis always about having a “relationship” with God and how “others” didn’t have this relationship were just religious? Yet, the ugly reality was, we were as religious–manmade laws–as any “religious” group! Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Perhaps the strength of many mainline denominations is that the pastor’s term is only good for 4-6 years and he moves on–hardly enough time to create a personality cult. Were I struggle with the whole religiousity thing is having been born and trained up in it, I only learned the religious aspects of it. The Church didn’t have solutions for the problems I faced–probably because many of them were inflicted by the Church or its mores–so I went outside the traditional resources to find answers for my life. Now, I have the truth, but the religious truth that I grew up with didn’t set me free, it bound me up. People will say, “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.” Well, there ain’t no baby in the bath water–it is all dirty water. So yes it is difficult to do a spiritual house cleaning and in the end have mountains of trash and only one or two articles of truth. Maybe we need a 10 Step Program to be free of our cultish upbringings?
So true…so sad.
From personal experience, Mars Hill is the “hip” church to go to for basically all SPU students, as well as their friends. It also appeals to Seattle kids who grew up in church, but can’t get away from feeling that they have to go to church–so they end up at this “hip” church.
I don’t see Mars Hill really dipping into an untapped source of unchurched individuals. I know that they will tell you that they are, but from my experience, I haven’t seen it.
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As far as this goes, I can’t believe it has taken so long. I thought Jude would have started his own church long ago.
On a side note: honestly, Jude was probably the nicest to me, out of everyone at TCC. He used to give me rides home from GC, take me to Burgermaster, just sit and talk with me… he seemed like a good guy who cared. His wife, Becky, seemed really nice too.
I always felt bad because it seemed like Jude was always having his ministry switched around on him. They always made it seem like “he had a new calling”, and needed to change his role a bit, but it always seemed to me that they would just shift him around whenever a new hot shot would show up.
Again, I can’t believe it has taken him so long to try to do his own thing… or, perhaps for them to let him do his own thing.
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Ya I actually agree. I think Pastor Jude really cared about people on an individual level. He was there from the beginning and knew what hard work went into builiding a ministry. He seems more real.
Personally I am glad that he is starting a new church. I think he will make an excellent senior pastor. He seems to go out of his way to help others and is not scared to get his hands dirty. I think we need more men like this in ministry.
Agreed with the last 2 posters: Pastor Jude is a great guy. Met him at a youth conference 3 years back. He has lots of stories about being on busses with youth, youth pants-ing him, etc… more of the “classic youth pastor” than the media-glitzy one. (he is also an epic preacher at times and very prophetic)
So back to the main topic..anybody have any more info on what caused this?
Any more fallout of other churches leaving MFI? Who’s got the scoop?
Jude is NOT planting a church. He is taking over a church that has been around a long time in the city of ventura. Church is debt free with about 60-70 members and a christian school.
I don’t get these accusations that if you blog your bitter. If I buy a Yugo and it is an awful car, a lemon, am I bitter because I acknowledge that it was a bad buy? PBC was a bad buy for me. I take full respondsibility for making a bad decision. But I still want to gain understanding on why I made the decision and hopefully guide some young kid whose mind is full of mush and point him/her down a brighter path. Bitter, no, think of us bloggers as the now wise elders sitting at the gate of the city. We have hard won wisdom because we have experienced what a dysfunctional church family can do to one’s spiritual life, ministry, career, and family. We are, as simplistic as it sounds, taking life’s lemons and turning them into something useful, lemonade.
Never heard it put like that Stephen – you are onto something there – there is no baby in the bath! Ha! also the 10 step program comment made me LOL! Maybe it’s time to start one since we all seem to go through the same steps getting the layers of the dirty water off! We’ve talked about there is no handbook telling you how to go through the process.
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Amen to that! Now if the drive by bloggers who tell us all we are bitter would’ve stayed around long enough to see your comment. Lol.
Also you have touched on a new thought about the city gate thing and dared to say it. Could it be that we have learned something from our experiences and we are just trying to get to the bottom of it and share what we’ve learned? So true.
EVERYthing is being redefined, from elders to gates to being able to talk about dysfunction without being labeled bitter. Bitterness is even redefined.
If you were an elder at the city gate and you wanted to keep your position, what would be the best way? Discredit anyone who begs to differ with your opinion by dismissing them as bitter and offended. That’s basically what the leaders of these churches do. “Don’t listen to those people who are asking questions about our leadership, they are just bitter and have a problem with offense.” I guess they didn’t count on the fact that they don’t own the city gate – it’s a place for anyone who wants to sit down and discuss. In that discussion foolishness is exposed on either side of the discussion.
Noticed one change on the MFI website: One of the leaders of the “zones” changed. It was Dave Patterson, from the fathers house church in CA. He was in charge of Northern CA, Southern CA, and the Southwest region…
Now it’s Patrick Kiteley from shiloh church.
On the Fathers House website, they look like a City Church/Hillsong type church…and maybe have 1,000 or 2,000 people?
Interesting that with Wendell/Judah leaving, Dave Patterson left his position as a Region Leader and ALT member as well…
My guess is Ken Wilde will be next, although the MFI site still has him listed…
Left hsi position as an ALT (apostolic leadership team) member as well?
Can you leave the position of apostle? Seriously, could Paul have simply said, “That’s it God, I’m out”?
This should be a clear sign to all who follow to current MFI “apostles” that its all a load of sh*t.
Well, Catalyst if you needed a new blog name you could call it, “Nathan’s Blog” after the prophet who sounded “bitter” yet had an uncomfortable word for King David. Or, how about, “The Blogging Prophets”, we are bringing a warning to the status quo. Of course the Pharisees were always grumping about Jesus ruining the fun at the Temple etc. why should we be surprised that someone would take offense at our perceived offense?
I’d love to be apart of the Apastolic Blogging Team
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I would imagine all of tcc network guys will be leaving mfi. make no mistake, if wendell is out of mfi cousin kenny is right behind him.
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yup, everything they been preaching for years. covering, authority etc etc blah blah blah. now, they just move on and all of that. JS was just preaching at his church a message about “not jumping out of the boat during transition” isnt MFI in a transition..? kool aide.
These guys really believe that they are anointed from God. They have a class system attitude. I’ll never forget looking right at Wendell and him laughing at me because he knew “better” than a professional Dr.- because he was a pastor & leader. And that his church had thousands of people in it so it qualified him to know more than professionals with degrees and experience in their field. At that point I wasn’t impressed, but all his entourage were bobbing their heads and agreeing.
We are all supposed to bow to their self appointed and self anointed authority- cause they can raise money and buy fancy buildings on the tithes and offerings of their unsuspecting followers. Last time I checked, we all put our pants on the same way. ugh. I can’t imagine Jesus acting this way- yet we are supposed to respect and follow them.
It still floors me that people don’t see through all this crap. I think it has become far worse than it was. I know I was in it for a long time, but even when I was, I knew something was wrong. When the offereings take 20-30 minutes and they keep pattting each other on the back and telling everyone how anointed they are, something is wrong.
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If these fearless leaders can self-anoint themselves as Apostles why can’t the leaders of this blog become Apostolic Bloggers–you started a new work and are now overseeing it…Surely imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?
I’m outa here if you ask us to send you money!
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Of course we don’t want your money – after all God doesn’t need it. But you might want to consider that if you rob God he isn’t able to bless you. In addition to your tithe, which is the baseline and doesn’t even count because it is God’s anyways, we would like you to consider giving generously. There are so many needs – new rides for elder leaders, iPods and iPads for the annointed, the double portion for the man of God, church sponsored vacations in Hawaaii, etc.
Don’t forget retirement, body guards, books, cds and computers.
Detox, it isn’t giving money if it doesn’t belong to you…LOL!
[Comment ID #38417 Will Be Quoted Here]Haha, nice to see you have ben well indroctrinated!
For the sake of future readers, let’s take a look at Acts 5:4, where the Apostle Peter (who was taught by Jesus for 3 years) has a final discussion with Ananias about his land and who owns what. “While it remained unsold, did it not remain YOUR OWN? And after it was sold, was it not under YOUR CONTROL?” Notice how the “10% belongs to God” thing doesn’t come up at all in this discussion of giving? Of course, Peter was just the chief Apostle in the early church, he was probably out of the loop on the giving issue. 
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Well since Peter was not an active MFI member he probably was working under faulty theology. It would have been good if he could have consulted with the ALT before making such a profound statement.
I think the way it was put to me at PBC was that tithing was a “necessary evil” that it was a mechanism to get people to give not that it was a “literal interpretation” of scripture (we will veer off the high road just for a moment)…
Speaking of tithing–when Jesus says give in such a way that the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing and your reward will be in heaven–that would preclude marching down to the front wouldn’t it? If my reward is in heaven do I need a charitable write off? Do I need the senior pastor, secretary, business administrator, and whoever else snooping into my giving levels? It would appear to me that if we are giving to be noticed by man, i.e. our giving is noticed by man–especially the tax man–haven’t we already gotten our reward? When I mentioned this dicotomy to a church member that we should give in secret and skip the write off they said they couldn’t afford to lose the write off! Wow, God couldn’t make it up??? Maybe the Church is sick in this country because God doesn’t have to bless us because we have already gotten our reward. Regardless of how much man made prosperity we enjoy it will never compare to God’s given in secret. When we give in secret God gives in secret.
Is it misleading or manipulative when they seek people who have testimonies of financial blessing? When someone gave their last penny and then got a job or a surprise check in the mail…
No testimonies ever involved any other kind of blessing… and why give to the Lord always expecting financial blessings in the first place? Doesn’t the Bible say something about that? I thought we’re supposed to give from the heart, not expecting anything – but just trusting He will provide for our needs?
Some amazing things happened in my life when I responded to the Lord’s prompting to give, but did anyone really want to know? No… because I didn’t give all the time – and the blessings weren’t always financial, but I know they were connected. I just wasn’t “looking” for it. All I wanted was to grow closer to the Lord, and I knew He would provide for my needs in any situation, which doesn’t always have to be comfortable.
But did you get a pink cadillac? Did you? Did you?
Uh, no. But, I don’t need or want one. I’m not paying for someone else’s either, if I can help it… my taxes pay for enough things people don’t need. If someone is genuinely in need, I want to help. If someone’s going to put a guilt trip on me to pay for something they don’t need, I’m going to have a hard time trusting them to share their “needs” in the future.
Besides, when I get that fancy car, it’s going to be a deep blue. Haha! No.
Wasn’t it Creflo Dollar that was given two Rolls Royce’s by a church member? I am sure to remind the Rev. Dollar to remain humble and down to earth–jus’ like Jesus!
Ironic last name– Dollar.
Yes, with a name like that, if anyone was born to preach the Prosperity message it has to be The Right Reverend Dollar.
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Good ole’ Cashflow Creflo lol.
Like my friend says his middle name is Another bwahaha.
Maybe it had something to do with this?
http://www.judahsmith.net
Love the bit where you can get video and insights from Judah, for a small monthly fee!
“These folks wouldn’t be the rock stars if we didn’t feed their dillusion. Honestly, their power is strong and they know many people. Unless you are on the inside you really don’t know their behavior. Even when you are on the inside there is danger of being like them because power and fame feel good. Going along with what they say has rewards, and opposing them brings horrid stressful consequences. ”
wow….and I thought I was the only one who saw this while I was there.
I’m glad I could read this as in the back of your mind you ask ” what did I do wrong to deserve this”.
Thanks for posting that. Thank you.
I found that CBC leadership can be very vindictive when you don’t go along with them and they view you as opposing them.
Hard to believe they can be that way but they are and it’s from the top down.
They will ostracize you. I have felt their wrath when I had questions about an elder candidate.
They didn’t like my questions and I quickly became an outsider. It was hurtful and I left
but now looking back I’m glad I left.
God rescued me from a system/institution that has become a monster.
Yeah it’s pretty disgusting how far these people have fallen from the apple tree!
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Unbelieveable. He is at the height of believing his own press. How audacious to charge a fee. And that picture of him – does he think he is oozing the love of God or something? Rather he is oozing pompous arrogance. I simply cannot stand it.
When is the Lord going to step in and say enough already?
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Whoa…this was weird. It’s kind of like he’s setting up his own little MFI without having to do anything except put stuff on the internet. Do people love him THIS much? I like his preaching as much as the next guy, but man…he’s basically allowing people to look at him like an apostle by simply putting videos, teachings, etc. on the web. Do people actually subscribe to this? Again, I’m all about people getting paid for what they do, but this is just…weird…I saw the video, and I was sitting there, like, “Is this guy for real?”
self anointed and self appointed.
I just gagged the whole time I was looking at it. Not as much over how corny and self serving it is, but knowing that he will probably get tons of subscribers or should I say lemmings that think this guy is the real deal, until you get behind the scenes. He’s the real deal alright, a real snake oil salseman.
ubelievable.
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Yes unfortunately his is. And when you have 25,000 people telling you on facebook, twitter, YouTube, blogs, etc. how great you are you begin to think your shit don’t stink. JS has slowly been heading this direction, but now I officially think he has jumped into the cesspool of disgrace.
Wendell suddenly was “called” to go to Kirkland when Frank got the helm from Dick. Wendell ALWAYS said he was called by God to be at BT forever.. amazing how that worked out. Judah is STILL so immature in his ramblings and antics… gag me.
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Could it be that Wendell really was called to be at BT, but there were personal reasons or conflicts in the staff that brought PF into the role instead? I know I felt called to do something, but someone got in my way. Not sure how that all happens or what the eternal ramifications are, but people can make/do/say things that can crush someone’s dream or “calling”. And, isn’t a felt calling more like a dream/vision – felt, but not necessarily of God? I don’t think Wendell was necessarily wrong. It can get dangerous when other people dictate your own future, so maybe Wendell’s is different than it would have been… and maybe Frank’s is different than it would have been, if someone had actually asked Wendell for his input and clarification on his “calling”?
all this talk of authority and apostleship is amazing to me, especially when they can’t even discern what’s to come in prophecy.
If you can’t even tell the people what’s to come upon the US, and for their safety, how is it that such loftiness is even valid?
Maybe it’s because God has hid it from their eyes and given it to the people you think are nobodies ~ such drama really needs to be muted on both sides of hype.
About those apocalyptic prophecies, how do they line up with:
“…the earth will wear out like a garment…” (Isaiah 51:6)