This is How You Takedown a Church

Amanda over at Year of Sundays writes her review of City Bible Church. 

She crushes them. And I mean CRUSHES them.   

Click below to read it:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/yearofsundays/2011/06/city-bible-church-where-all-are-not-really-welcome.html 

34 thoughts on “This is How You Takedown a Church

  1. Amanda and Joel have inspired me to start a new blog. I’m going to call it:

    A Year of Sundaes

    I’m looking forward to the homework.

  2. I remember years ago being in church listening to a sermon from Frank Damazio. He was speaking on sex and he mentioned that he doesn’t dance, because dancing mimics the same moves that people use when having sex. This was back in the 90′s when the Macarena was popular. And all I could think of the rest of the sermon was that Frank Damazio does the Macerena when having sex.

    This is quite a visual image JP…

    Reading Amanda’s posting on her blog of her unbiased observations while attending a CBC service last Sunday is so sobering.. even more so the people screaming at her and trying to shame her in their comments.

    Too many kool-aid drinkers out there.

  3. And here, we have Joel’s review… http://blog.beliefnet.com/yearofsundays/2011/06/city-bible-church-portland-orego.html

    I really felt very, very sad to read this. Hearing about it, now having gotten free of it, I would tend to feel the same way – except that I’ve found a good church, in which I can grow and relearn. For sooooo many, there isn’t such a thing available or nearby.

    I’m curious though,… what Scripture does Frank use as backup for his echoes from the audience? What Scripture does he use for backing up his blanket statements? And if he is so easily getting a strong response to his “copy after me”, how long before everyone walks right off the cliff and drinks the kool-aid without questioning a single thing?

    Or, just as bad… how long before someone sees the problem and refuses to drink, but doesn’t STOP everyone else from drinking it? When will the voices here, represented by lives abruptly halted by the sudden realization that CBC is full of a pack of lies and severely damaging manipulation, be heard?

  4. At last – Thanx NSQ!

    I’m curious though,… what Scripture does Frank use as backup for his echoes from the audience? What Scripture does he use for backing up his blanket statements? And if he is so easily getting a strong response to his “copy after me”, how long before everyone walks right off the cliff and drinks the kool-aid without questioning a single thing?

    It’s more than a little eerie – reminds me of the Stepford Wives – they ones they killed and put a robot in their place.

    Ok, off to read Joel’s awaited post now!

  5. The best point Amanda made in her CBC review is this:

    “What a waste! All those dead trees could have fed a family of six for at least a day, if not a week. Each one of those stupid big screen TV’s was a year’s worth of groceries or enough to clothe and house a homeless veteran for a year. I kept waiting for the explanation. Where was all this money coming from? And more importantly, where was it going?

    Throughout the service, I’d kept my ears perked for something – ANYTHING – that would redeem this church. Maybe prayers for the sick, a call for volunteers to help feed the poor or serve the needy, a mention of even ONE THING this church does to help the less fortunate.
    Yet there wasn’t a single word, not even a syllable, about how the money they collected would be used.”

    This is what we have been preaching here on City Business for years and now we finally have an outsider to back us up. The #1 fault of City Bible…their GREED and lust for MONEY! Their leadership is people with no ability to make any real money on their own in the real world. So instead of doing what most people do (go to school, start a business, get a job, work your way up, etc.) they just schmooze their way into church leadership (or have parents who do it for them) then start preaching lies, manipulating scripture, and using guilt to get people to fork over thousands, week after week, month after month, year after year. It’s how they’ve built an empire and for every 1 person that leaves on week, another innocent blind soul shows up the next week and gets suckered in by the glitz and the glam, the attention, the money. It’s a shameful and sickening process that has chewed up and spit out so many lives. I can’t even imagine the good that has been lost by these thieves. The things that could have been accomplished over the last 20 years is now all dust in the wind because of their selfish arrogant ways. Every time I think about it I just want to puke. God’s justice is the only thing that gives me hope that in the end, the truth shall set them free.

    This is a church that wants two things:
    1) Your money (for who knows what)
    2) Your obedience (to a very strict set of rules and regulations they spend most of their sermons discussing)

    This should be the new slogan of City Bible. Someone should make a sign and post it up outside each of their entrances so all first time visitors can be warned.

  6. You are so correct Reformer! Perfectly said and great idea about the sign!

    In Joel’s post – he nails it really well here:

    The way City Bible Church sees it, the only safe place in the world is inside their fold, because the enemy is out there. Boo! Be careful!

    I have a problem with that on a lot of levels. First of all, such exclusive authoritarianism consolidates a lot of power in the hands of a small coterie of imperfect people who themselves operate under the thumb of a guy who can’t even trust them to preach in their own building. It also insults the intelligence of church members, teaching them that they are too dumb to figure out life on their own and that if they want to have a shot at happiness, they’d better do exactly what CBC church tells them. Finally, by characterizing society outside of their 36-acre campus and three other locations as sinful and predatory, they disrespect the billions of people in this world who mean at least as well as Frank Damazio and Marc Estes do.

    Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/yearofsundays/2011/06/city-bible-church-portland-orego.html#ixzz1PC8JHGBN

    I agree that this style of leadership is demoralizing, disrespectful to billions of people and perpetuates fear in the handful that still attend (6000 is a handful when talking billions…)

  7. Sigh…the bummer part of this blog endorsing their blog isn’t that they hammered CBC, it’s that they hammer the Gospel. Yeah, CBC is fundamentalist. That’s not what these guys are talking about. They’re talking about Christianity or religion from an atheist perspective and you guys are eating it up.

  8. [Comment ID #41217 Will Be Quoted Here]

    No, the problem is that from an atheistic perspective, they see nothing different at CBC… CBC is like a greedy, worldly, manipulative, selfish organization… and it’s sad that that can be said about it. However, if the folks there were open, honest, transparent, put away the echos, slideshows, many screens, and privacy exclusiveness – and brought forth the gospel in all it’s amazing life-changingness… because afterall, the Lord is the One who changes lives… NOT Frank…, there would be something different about them.

    Visitors who are there for strictly bashing goals would see that there is something different if it were a church where God was adored and worshiped, and NOT the pastor’s ego – and I believe the bloggers’ reactions, and ours, would be entirely different. If the word doesn’t get out there, this blog and many others will continue to grow from the damaged hearts seeking answers… and while I find it extremely encouraging to have a place to sort through the baggage and mind-blowing confusion, I hope that at some point, it won’t be a necessary blog anymore. What say you?

  9. [Comment ID #41217 Will Be Quoted Here]

    We aren’t eating it up the atheist point of view. Last time I checked, I’m an adult that can think for myself. Last time I checked I’m still a christian, a believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ which is a DIFFERENT gospel than Frank teaches along with all the other latter rain dominionists like my former pastor.

    So not to worry, those of us who are delighting in the fact that these bloggers hit the nail on the head about what goes on at this church aren’t about to jump ship and become atheists now.

    Thanks PJD, you give us about as much credit in using our brains as our former pastors did.

  10. PJD,

    Eatng it up? I think not. We’re adults with brains and can think for ourselves. I dont agree with everything the people who posted the blog. They are atheists and they have the free will to decide for themselves what they believe. They will ridicule Christian fundamentals and name call us. I can deal with that.

    As a Christian, I would rather have an atheist criticize me for believing in the existence of God, a dead guy, Jesus rising from the dead, or ridiculing the idea of saving sex before marriage, or the concept of forgiving your enemies or any other Christian core fundamental beliefs.

    However, if an atheist criticized me for being selfish, greedy, talking about helping the poor but in actuality not doing it—I would be grieved. I’d need to repent and ask God to turn it around. Grace is wonderful thing. But it’s no excuse for complacency or unrepentance and unwilling to change. God’s grace helps me through but I have the responsibility to take small steps to control myself and steps towards godliness. This can be applied to any sin.

    Yes we are not perfect. Recently, an atheist friend told me that I seem to have anger. And it’s true! But instead of being defensive, I acknowledged it and said I’m trying to improve and ask God to help me. I asked her if I said or did anything to offend her. We’re all in the process of redemption, but that’s not an excuse for complacency and unrepentence!

    The blog didnt primarily criticize the gospel being preached. They noticed greed, materialism, idolatry, authoritarian control, and a church making over 4 million but misusing it—especially as a nonprofit. Thats unethical. They nailed it. Busing inner city kids to church services is not outreach but marketing. Even an atheist recognizes self-centeredness, greed, unethical behavior

  11. Ok I’ve had a few hours to let this simmer and what rises to the surface is the word FILTER. When you read anything, you filter. You mine the gold. You don’t have to take the rest of it home.

    What Joel and Amanda did is confirm a few things that are going on – well, maybe more than a few – at City Bible Church. There’s a reason that this blog is called City BUSINESS Church and you have to admit there were points on both their posts that echo what those of us here already know. This is a huge vindication for City Business Blog after YEARS of posting on the fallicies of their old church – you guys are actually validated by non-involved outsiders about what YOU ALREADY KNEW.

    Do we agree with the athiest/agnostic point of view? No. Do we really want to read about certain sexual preferences or positions that the Year of Sundays bloggers speak of, not really. (Speaking of, certain things really are sacred, and what 2 people do in their own bedroom should remain between them but that’s how my spouse and I roll, no pun intended.) We filter all of that to get to the heart of what we need – and that is WHAT DOES CITY BIBLE CHURCH LOOK LIKE to someone coming in for the first timewho has an intelligent mind even if their spiritual persuasion doesn’t match ours?

    Speaking of filter, I filter here on CBC blog all the time. I have to plow through all the religious dogma and theological preferences to bond with our common history: we were held captive by pastors who preached a wrong doctrine and we are free of it.

    Filter PDJ – can you even begin to do it? If not, then it’s your way or the highway, and frankly (ha! no pun intended) we had enough of that in our old world and it’s just not cutting it anymore. God gave me a brain and I’m using it, as a Christian, as an American and as a good steward for the rest of my life on this side of heaven. Not being able to filter reminds me too much of the world I escaped from.

  12. [Comment ID #41217 Will Be Quoted Here]

    See, we don’t actually have a problem with Fundamentalism. If Marc Estes had come right out at the beginning of our interview and said, “Hell no! We don’t allow queers here!” I’d have had a lot more respect for the guy. Instead he flipped and flopped like a fish out of water trying to lead us in. He’s looking for sheep for the slaughter, not thinkers who want to talk about the issues in an upfront way.

  13. [Comment ID #41234 Will Be Quoted Here]

    Right, they don’t know what to do with thinkers. To them a thinker = an uncontrollable maverick. I can almost see the sermon title “How to Harness a Maverick” with 8 non-negotiable steps!

  14. [Comment ID #41217 Will Be Quoted Here]

    Just a slight correction. Although we are atheists, we do respect Jesus, who, I feel, was a great man and whose teachings are still relevant after all these centuries. Christian churches that imitate the kind of love for truth and for fellowman that he demonstrated have our respect. Watch our blog for our upcoming review of the Trinity Episcopal service.

  15. Joel, since you consider Jesus to be a good man, I wonder what you think of many of the claims of Jesus (being the only way to God, being one with God, casting people into Hell, He will come again, predicting His resurrection, claiming to be the one prophesied of in the old testament). If I thought Jesus was only a man I would consider Him to be quite loony, not the makings of a good man.

    I say this because if I believe what Jesus taught about Himself (He is God and He is coming back to judge sinners), then I am being terribly deceived by Him (if He is merely a man). I could be living a hedonistic life to the fullest if not for His deceptions (if He were only a man). I would think deceiving people into a religion to be one of the most horrible things a person could do.

    On a certain level I find what you are doing very interesting. I wish we in the church would hold each other to the standard of scripture. It is sad that it takes someone who rejects the one we worship to hold the church to the standards of scripture.

    I would also love to hear at some point what caused you to become an Atheist. What evidence did you came across that caused you to believe there is no God?

  16. I’m not sure how I haven’t heard of this blog until now. My accidental discovery on Google.

    Haven’t heard of it until now, probably because I come from the ‘Iverson’ bloodline and have been around everything mentioned in this blog since day one of my life and have seen it all. As much as it pains me to have to read most of what has been published on this site, I won’t sit here and say that I disagree or agree but I’ll just say that I was once in the mindframe of what you post. It pains me because I’m getting a bird’s eye view of what I used to be like towards church, church leadership and anyone involved with a church for that matter.

    You see, I grew up IN IT. Surrounded by it. I grew up watching people like yourself walk away bitter, angry and pist at the church. I also saw those that latched onto it and made it their life. ME? I walked down the middle. I dove into the world while living, breathing the church. I eventually left altogether and walked away bitter, angry and severe hatred for all those involved, including my family and everyone else that even had a finger on my life.

    NOW, saying all of that, after reading a majority of the latest posts dating back to January of 2011, I have to make my observation and I’m more than prepared to get jack hammered for it. Your issues have everything to do with the church and how it’s led rather than God Himself. Most of the posts I have read slam the church but yet you point out in scriptures how Jesus would do it.

    You are very keen on wanting people to know how Jesus would do it.

    Here’s the thing. Out of any of you on here I am actually tied to the people you speak of. By blood I am tied to it. I have lived in it and have seen it, heard it and have the program. I will say this.. Up until about 5 years ago, I was in your chair. I blasted, poked, cut, squeezed lemon on it and pour gallons of salt on wounds. I ripped it to shreds how I felt about the church and leadership.

    That was until about 5 years ago. When I realized that it wasn’t my life I had control over but it was being controlled by those I hated and bitter at. NOOO, not controlled as in, “DO THIS & DO THAT”. My anger and bitterness had literally consumed me to the point that I my life was literally driven by what leadership was doing. How the church was being ran. How worship sounded. How the Pastor preached. My life became consumed by this and yet they in reality had NOTHING to do with how I lived my life or how I went about waking up in the morning.

    NOW? That is no longer, I have no problem with any church, my family, leadership, nothing. I let it freaking go. What I realized was none of that freaking mattered. My relationship with God is what mattered. My convictions, my thoughts, my life only answer to God. What leadership does, what the church does, how the worship team leads worship, doesn’t matter. It’s an acquired taste and if you don’t like it, there are other churches. Every church has their issues. You can’t find one without one. Yet, that’s not what matters. Church is for community, for gathering with other Christians and sharpening each other. It’s supposed to sharpen you… But, any church that is over lets’ say 500 people, you will get lost, you will have a hard time breaking into the leadership or circles. It’s just the way it goes, yet, people walk into a church of 6000 and feel entitled to be noticed and used.

    I read this blog and am really wondering if deep down this is what is happening with so many of you that have used a knife on this site. HEY, I totally get it. I get what you all are saying but what I sit here and hope happens… Is that all of you will eventually just let it freaking go and start living your life without being consumed by what other people do and how they do it. I ruled my life for almost three decades and I have to say, it feels like morphine to have let those people and churches go their way and allow myself to go mine. I have not looked back and when I come across others that are sitting in their consumption I wish I could shake you around and somehow open your eyes BUT your dealing with a mindset and there is nothing I can do to change that. Nothing. The mind can only be changed by the person that chugs it around within himself. We just have to sit around and watch, listen and feel that person destroy himself.

    Hey, happy posting CBusinessC. I get you but at the same time feel for you.

  17. [Comment ID #41264 Will Be Quoted Here]

    As an atheist, my response is that I don’t take many of Jesus’ quotes very literally. For some reason people think they know exactly what Jesus and company where “really saying”, even though: they are living 2000 years later; they aren’t able to read in the language that these texts were actually written in; they don’t have the first, second, or even third generation copies of these scriptures available; they don’t have a rudimentary understanding of the complex histories and societies that these people were living in and being influenced by.

    However, Christians today still readily claim that they can take Jesus’ wording literally, in spite of all these things. Has anyone ever played the telephone game? Now, I can see the retort coming: God has divinely made it so that everything is exactly as it was written down in its original form, and He has made sure that all translations are accurate so that we may understand His Word. Furthermore, He has made us so that we can understand all the history and background required for contextual clarity.

    I, in fact, know that God doesn’t work this way because I tried it on a math test once and it didn’t help.
    ——–

    Okay, that is my response– please don’t let it sidetrack this topic because I find it way more interesting that any road this subtopic could take. I just saw an opportunity to add an atheist’s perspective.

    Cheers.

  18. So, Matricks, just a quick sidenote question: are you actually an alter indentity of Joel’s and thus have been blogging with us all along or are you, too, an atheist? Just wondering bcz you said ‘that is my response’ to Craigs questions.

  19. Hey there PDXprOdigal – glad you dropped in to tell part of your story and that you’ve been able to let bygones be bygones. We are working toward that, some of us have actually moved on, some of us wish we could be further along. Blogging is helping us get there.

    No matter how we move on we’ll always need to be aware of red flags, ask questions and pursue a right gospel. There’s more to the story than just being hurt or not being allowed to lead in a church. It has to do with being sold a bill of goods that wasn’t exactly the real deal while believing it was truth. That’s why it matters the way a church is lead and what gospel is taught. We don’t agree with how your family taught the gospel and still don’t. We can forgive and move on but we can’t rewrite history or pretend nothing ever happened, nor can we condone teaching that is only partially based on truth.

  20. [Comment ID #41270 Will Be Quoted Here]

    Haha, I’m not Joel! I figured that Craig’s post was generally directed at atheists and their (our) point of view, which is why I responded in such a way.

    However, I would love do a similar thing (Year of Sundays) up here in Seattle as Joel is doing down in Oregon. I’m not sure what wacky churches they have going on down there (besides CBC), but I know we’ve got Mars Hill, TCC, Ken Hutcherson’s church (aka Ken the media-chaser, as seen on all cable news organizations), etc. up here. Perhaps I’ll leave it to the experts and invite them to come up here and do an expose on these joints :)

    P.S. I’m not a militant atheist– I just like to ask questions. I find people here to be quite thoughtful and levelheaded, even if I don’t agree on central dogma, which is why I enjoy checking in!

  21. [Comment ID #41273 Will Be Quoted Here]

    I think J+A would like to take their gig on the road once there is financing available – if so they’d be coming your way. In fact in the comment section of one of their reviews Amanda mentions she can’t wait to go to Mars Hill.

    Cool that you can blog with us without agreeing on our belief in Jesus. That’s more than some of our Christian brethren and sisteren (I just made up a word!) are willing to do.

    PJD said:

    June 17th, 2011 at 12:02 am

    Unfortunately, this is where I get off. Blog on my friends.

    That’s the beauty of the internet and blogging – we can check in when we wish and stay away if we’ve had enough. Now if churches were set up that way, it’d be great.

    Imagine a group of people who would actually approach their commitment with an open hand, giving people a sense of freedom to come and go. Instead many churches consider commitment to the church to be similar to a marriage which puts way too much emphasis on the church (and its leadership) and thus too much pressure and guilt on the people.

  22. Cool that you can blog with us without agreeing on our belief in Jesus. That’s more than some of our Christian brethren and sisteren (I just made up a word!) are willing to do.

    It’s a good group of people here, and I find it refreshing to able to converse civilly with people who may have some differing fundamental beliefs– many times I do feel we share some common ground.

    Imagine a group of people who would actually approach their commitment with an open hand, giving people a sense of freedom to come and go. Instead many churches consider commitment to the church to be similar to a marriage which puts way too much emphasis on the church (and its leadership) and thus too much pressure and guilt on the people.

    Like a marriage where you slave away in the kitchen only to have your other half tell you that it wasn’t good enough, and that you should try harder.

  23. Hi Matrix,

    We are at it again…and it’s always a pleasure disagreeing with someone who isn’t a jerk!

    You said:

    I don’t take many of Jesus’ quotes very literally. For some reason people think they know exactly what Jesus and company where “really saying”, even though: they are living 2000 years later; they aren’t able to read in the language that these texts were actually written in; they don’t have the first, second, or even third generation copies of these scriptures available;

    Sure, we don’t have the original writings, but what we do have is conclusive in its record of the authenticity, and accuracy of the writings. The thousands of manuscripts aside, we have the writings of the leaders of the church in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th century along with some that knew the Apostle John.

    Not only do they quote the bible and Jesus’s sayings (just using their quotes we can compile 98% of the new testament), the also came to the same conclusions on the major issues. They agree on nature of Jesus, Hell, sin, judgement, life, creation, and salvation. This is one area that really surprised me when I became a believer at the age of 29. I used to believe something similar to what you say in the quote above…but the overwhelming evidence does not support your conclusion (that the scriptures can’t be trusted). Taking the sayings of Jesus figuratively is not what the early church did. Why would I trust the modern day skeptics 2,000 years later? I think taking Jesus figuratively is a way to simply dismiss Him because His sayings are too hard. Archeology, manuscript evidence, and the testimony of the earliest church are a powerful testimony of the truth and reliability of scripture. I challenge you to find any other document of antiquity that rivals the bible’s documentation.

  24. Hello Craig!

    I will try to respond in order :)

    Sure, we don’t have the original writings, but what we do have is conclusive in its record of the authenticity, and accuracy of the writings.

    I used to believe something similar to what you say in the quote above…but the overwhelming evidence does not support your conclusion (that the scriptures can’t be trusted).

    Here is a quick website to check out that outlines a few (there are many more) translational errors, etc, of the Bible. These were determined via comparisons between older manuscripts and what is canonically accepted as the Bible.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm

    I have a better site than this saved somewhere, but I can’t seem to find it on short notice– I’ll try to, however.

    Furthermore, the mainstream writings of Dr. Bart Ehrman at UNC Chapel Hill elaborate on this (these) issue(s) in a very reader-friendly manner.

    I think taking Jesus figuratively is a way to simply dismiss Him because His sayings are too hard.

    Perhaps for some who believe in Jesus as the Son of God; however, I don’t believe in God, and as a result I don’t believe in His Son. Therefore, it is moot to speak of me to caring whether Jesus was being figurative or literal, from a cognitive dissonance perspective, as it won’t change how I choose to act due to my previously stated disbelief. That being said, from a simple objective standpoint, I do believe in the figurative interpretation of many of his sayings.

    This is one area that really surprised me when I became a believer at the age of 29.

    Apparently, you and I are opposites as I started out as a super-Christian, and then transitioned to my current belief system in my mid-twenties!

    Archeology, manuscript evidence, and the testimony of the earliest church are a powerful testimony of the truth and reliability of scripture. I challenge you to find any other document of antiquity that rivals the bible’s documentation.

    I challenge you to correspond with any archeologist or historian who specializes in this time period, and ask them to what extent the Bible is a historical document, versus a historical piece of literature that does in fact accurately account for some events in the respective time period. As one would expect, the farther back one goes in terms of the events that took place in the Bible, the less any trained professionals actually take these descriptions to be reliable, beyond perhaps metaphorical or fact mixed with fiction. Only recently has there been archeological evidence for David’s existence. That being said, he is the “oldest” character in the Bible that there has been any evidential proof for. I’m not saying that others did not exist, but since we are speaking about archeological evidence, well, those are the facts.

  25. Why do conversations between atheists and Christians always come down to the Bible, when the Bible itself is a collection of testimonies from men and women whom God GOBSMACKED with a visitation of some kind?

    Do Christians really expect people to believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, simply because it says so in the Bible? Adam and Eve believed because they walked and talked with God. Abraham believed because God walked up behind him and said “Yo, Abraham – I’m God” …

    Take any atheist and GOBSMACK them with a genuine visitation from God and they’d believe.

    Try to compel them to believe on the basis of the Bible alone, by proving it’s historical / translational accuracy, is waste of time, an most certainly frustrating for atheist and Christian alike.

    I’d like to float the questions:

    Is there any Christian here who believes in God, His Son, the Holy Spirit, SOLELY on the basis of the Bible?

    Is there any Christian here who believes without EVER having had a “personal experience” with God, His Son, the Holy Spirit?

  26. I agree with a majority of the above comment.

    Overall, it is frustrating when people say that they believe that the Bible is the word of God because it says so in the Bible, which in turn tells us about God who wrote the Bible… ad infinitum. The overt circular nature of it is too much for me to handle– I always get suckered into chiming in.

    However, if people have had an experience that they believe that science or anyone else can’t explain (I would beg to differ, but whatever), then I certainly have more respect for that basis for belief than the former.

    Hey, gee wiz, wasn’t the original topic of this post really interesting? I liked it.

  27. Do Christians really expect people to believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, simply because it says so in the Bible? Adam and Eve believed because they walked and talked with God. Abraham believed because God walked up behind him and said “Yo, Abraham – I’m God” …

    Take any atheist and GOBSMACK them with a genuine visitation from God and they’d believe.

    Try to compel them to believe on the basis of the Bible alone, by proving it’s historical / translational accuracy, is waste of time, an most certainly frustrating for atheist and Christian alike.

    This is one of the truest statements I’ve ever heard on this blog. To me arguing with an atheist is just pointless. Only God can change someone’s heart.

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