Here is an interesting comment from a reader who was a Christian, until she started attending City Bible. She decided to convert to Mormonism.
I was saved as a lonely 15 year old in Ken Wilde’s church in Idaho. I moved to Portland at 21 because there was a major break/division in Ken’s church. I never knew what it was about but a lot of people left. In fact that was around the time Mark and Dee Dee Bryan started their church in Idaho. A lot of people from Capital Christian Center went to Church of the Harvest. I attended City Bible Church until I started meeting Mormons left and right. I noticed how wonderful they are and how they to treated me like one of their own.
Well here is the big bomb. I actually was baptized as a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have been a member since 1999. I could go on for paragraphs about what I have learned since becoming a member. None of the lies I was taught about the Mormons as a youth were true. I love feeling the Holy Spirit with no hype, music etc. I have been to the Temple. It is hands down one of the most sacred places I have ever been on this earth. The truth does set you free. Best of luck to you as you figure things out.
For the most part, Mormons are really nice people. And that is a fairly powerful evangelism tool.
The initial draw was that they were much nicer than she was told they were. They weren’t creepy or controlling. They were just friendly & family oriented & honest. If that’s all the reason for switching, initially at least, then CBC has failed in HUGE ways. But we already know that. How many others have discovered that basic lie CBC told, that Mormons are below the lowest “Christians” and are to be avoided – and then switched because, being lied to is a terrible, very difficult thing to accept?
Wow. Well. Gasp. Yes, the Mormon’s are very very good at embracing the vulnerable. It doesn’t surprise me that a person would go into a full fledged cult after becoming a Christian at Ken Wilde’s church. Churches like CCC and CBC lay a perfect foundation for deception. That’s why it’s so important to take time to detox when you wake up and smell the coffee and high tail it out of the vortex. The alternative seems to be you find yourself in another vortex worse than the first. Case in point, Church of the Harvest is more abusive than CCC and if you leave CCC and feel at home at a church like COTH then something is still askew either spiritually or emotionally. If you then leave COTH but feel you have no need to heal and regroup then you are susceptible to even more deception – and deception always leads to abuse whether it’s blatent or subtle. Deception and health don’t go together.
Sure, Mormonism may not have the hype of our former wack worlds but it’s not exactly conducive to individual development and critical thinking. You are probably ok as long as you go along with the throng, but try bucking the system and see what happens.
As far as religions go, Mormons have a lot of cult-like tendencies. And they are just as strict on tithing as many Evangelical churches.
My test for churches is how they treat you if you leave the church. The good ones don’t care.
Justing I love this quote:
“My test for churches is how they treat you if you leave the church. The good ones don’t care.”
Can I post on Facebook?
Fo Sho.
So true!
Great concept! The good ones want to help you do God’s will for your life wether it benefits them or not. They want to build God’s Kingdom, not their own lil empires. Why does fellowship have to stop when ya leave a church anyway? Where’s the unity in that?
I have appreciated all the thoughts to my comment about me becoming a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. First I want to say I was not a shrinking violet at the time of my conversion. I am strong and intelligent and have a relationship with my Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I didn’t cease to become a Christian because I became a “Mormon” , rather I have a greater understanding of what that truly means. I had the courage to step into a chapel and listen to what was being taught. I decided not to be afraid of becoming “deceived” by doing this. I also fasted and prayed with a sincere heart to know what I should do. I read the Book of Mormon. One of my favorite allegories is Lehi’s vision of The Tree of Life (1 Nephi
My question to Detox Church Group and others is how many of you have taken the time to do some of those things? Who told you it was a cult? Were you too afraid of that “deception” that might suck you in? These are retoricle of course. Just some thoughts.
I have worked with, prayed with and served with some of the most incredible people. I have also had the privilege of working with my Bishop (who is similar to a pastor) on a recent situation in my life that I’m pretty sure I would have been ostracized for in CCC and CBC and might have had my chair kicked at COTH. Instead I had a man that was very humble, worked with me for weeks all WITHOUT payment. Amazing.
I understand if you are trying to get away from organized religion and that too is something you will need to pray about and find out what is right. Just some thoughts I wanted to share. Oh, last but not least, I eluded to it earlier. Those people I have served with, not one of them is payed for their service. They have education, jobs and a way to support their families outside our church and the tithing that is given. My tithing doesn’t go to the money hungry pastors that do who knows what with it. It goes to the church headquarters and is used to build the Kingdom of God on the earth in these latter days.
Sounds like you found a church that fit you, Melissa. That’s great.
Melissa, I agree with cat that it’s wonderful to find a church that fits you. But, I say this with all kindness: doctrinally, Mormonism is not biblical Christianity. It’s another teaching.
Which is why I made my first statement: that if CBC were teaching the Scripture properly, you should be able to tell the difference. If, knowing the differences, you choose to be a Mormon, well, that is your right.
I have found that many Christians and many Mormons do not know their own Scriptures. So it is often difficult to have a good discussion on these teachings. It’s sad, really.
And so, decisions are made on the quality of people who go to a certain church. Based on that alone, I think I will become Bahai. They are really, really nice people.
I hope you hear what I am saying. I’m not trying to be snarky or rude… really.
Good point, Anna.
I read A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by LaGrand Richards, excerpts from the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price, and Book of Mormon.
I’ve also read Chaos of the Cults by J. K. Van Baalen, and Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin.
I’ve attended Mormon ward/stake gatherings, dances, a baptism, etc. One of the things that really struck me about a mormon church service, was that the message, delivered by members, mentioned Jesus not once, but praised Joseph Smith. There was no cross in their sanctuary. They sung hymns about Joseph Smith.
There was NO way I could sit through that, not after meeting Jesus in a very personal way.
I was in love with a Mormon girl, we talked about marriage. My parents, who believe in Jesus, could not attend our marriage, which was to be conducted in the temple in SLC – there was no temple in Bellevue at the time. To marry her, I had to be a missionary for 2 years …
About Mormon doctrine, there is ONLY ONE Melchezidek priest: Jesus. The Aaronic priesthood was abolished with the death and resurrection of Jesus – the temple in which the Aaronic priesthood ministered, was destroyed in 70AD and has not been re-built.
According to 1 Peter 2 and Revelation 2-3, we are all priests now, by the blood of Christ. It is nothing you need to labor at to achieve – it is the gift of Christ to all who believe in Him.
Far too much of Mormon doctrine is works based, IMO.
About the tithe, have you read this? http://www.lighthouseprophecy.com/prophecy/ExposingTheTitheLie.html
I guess my biggest beef with mormonism is that they believe Jesus was a man that became God. Instead of God who became a man. And that Jesus & Lucifer are spirit brothers along with every other person on this planet. The Book of Mormon says right on the front of it “another testament of Jesus Christ”. That pretty much explains it. Another means another, no matter what school ya went to.
>> “My test for churches is how they treat you if you leave the church.
>> The good ones don’t care.”
That is gold! This quote says a lot with just a few words. I’m going to steal this at least a few times in the next few weeks.
Again thanks for all of your input, especially Anna.
I have a question I’d like to put out there for anyone who would care to answer…
When did water baptisms begin in the Bible?
Looking forward to your input.
Not sure where you can pinpoint the first biblical reference, because the act of water baptism is taken from old testament/jewish washings for purification both in the temple and otherwise, called mikveh or mikvah (still commonly practiced by devout jews today). That’s why it really wasn’t a new concept when John the Baptist started doing it. There’s plenty on-line about it, but here’s a couple guys who seem know the history and meaning pretty well:
http://jesus-messiah.com/html/mikva-baptisms.html
http://rinahshal.tripod.com/id193.html
Is this where George Lucas came up with the Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker relationship like the Mormon teaching that Jesus and the Devil are spirit brothers? Sometimes I think I learn more from this Blog Bible College then I ever did at PBC!
O.K. This comment is just this side of mocking. I know a lot of what is said in this blog is just that. But before you pick up on someone’s comment about another churche’s doctrine you might want to know a bit about the doctrine you mock. For example before you discuss the doctrine that you think Mormons believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers, you may want to start by understanding the pre-exsistance and what angels really are, and no they are not just naked angel babies flying around with harps.
BTW I kept track of how many times Joseph Smith’s name was said in our Sacrament Meeting today. Two times. In contrast Jesus or Jesus Christ was said 26 times and Heavenly Father was mentioned 30 times.
So far all the comments about Mormons are nothing new to me. I am grateful for the restoration of the fulness of the gospel and for a living Prophet on the earth and 12 Apostles that lead Christ’s church in these last days. I’ve been here 13 years and I’m not going anywhere.
Best to all of you my brothers and sisters!
Explain to us what angels realy are in the mormon doctrine. I know what the bible teaches. God the Father has one Son…Jesus Christ…only begotten Son…Also can you explain to us who the mormon jesus is, cuz he isn’t the same Jesus thats in the Bible.
http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/angels?lang=eng&letter=a
Here you go for better or worse
You remind me of the discussions about mormonism I had with my high-school mormon girlfriend. We’d both read the BOM, POGP, D&C, Marvelous Work and Wonder, but I was the only one who went outside LDS-approved reading list, to read Chaos of the Cults (Van Baalen), Kingdom of the Cults (Martin), and miscellaneous materials that included 1st testimonies from former NY neighbors and friends of the Smiths … they were very startling insights into the man’s character. So my decision concerning Mormonism was balanced, a decision made from taking in information from LDS and non-LDS sources.
I knew in high-school that there was more to the faith than “church”, so the answer for me wasn’t switching churches from Presbyterian to Mormon – the answer for me was finding the real Jesus, and a more personal relationship with Him. That has been my walk these last 40 years since high school. And that walk has included the baptisms, experiences and gifts discussed in the Bible – namely the baptism with the Holy Spirit, with the gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-10) of tongues, discernment, word of wisdom / knowledge / prophecy, etc., when and as the Lord sees fit to stir them in me.
Now, in hindsight, Mormonism is just more of the same – what I like to call “old testament temple worship reincarnate” … the way of the Lord is sonship and leading his followers out of that junk.
About those discussions with the old girlfriend, having never read any of the non-LDS materials I had, all she could offer was “They’re all lies” …
What’s sad, the LDS church may have a ‘fresh face’ now – an ‘angelic’ appearance so-to-speak, where to your eyes appears to be righteous and a wonderful place to be, but that I’m afraid is just the whitewash over a long and ugly history. Such is not exclusive to Mormonism either; it is common in the history of the Catholic and Protestant churches as well.
The atrocities men have committed in the “name of God” almost never have anything to do with God, rather, they are the Ishmaelic result of man’s lust for religious power and significance, man’s vain attempts at self-justification.
Wouldn’t hurt you to read Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin. In fact, I should think you wouldn’t challenge bloggers here to read LDS-approved materials before you’ve read some non-LDS materials yourself, so that at least, you can speak to the subject from the point of balance / non-bias.
I must say Unsrupulous Man (interesting name by the way) that you assume I have not read the books you recommend and I say you do err. Kingdom of he Cults was interesting. There is even a study guide to go along with it. If I remember correctly Catholocism wasn’t even mentioned which surprised me. Nothing against them but I was “sprinkled”as a baby in the Catholic church, went through my first communion there and also went to confession. As a child it felt funny and I was never comfortable. If you study Cults as Catalyst did when he did his paper at PBC, Catholics fit the bill pretty closely.
I did read The God Makers as well. This is all before I became LDS. So when I say the things that are being said to me are not new, that is why. I’ve not read everything obviously. If I haven’t mentioned this in previous posts I was very anti-Mormon . As a youth in Ken Wilde’s church we used to try to evangelize the Mormons. We travelled all over Idaho doing so. That was interesting. Anyway, what I want you to know is that I hope you have my best interests as you share your concern for me. I’m great, loving Jesus more and more every day.
If you have read Chaos of the Cults and God Makers, etc., how did you reconcile the arguments put forth in those books, such that you accepted Mormonism as truth?
One or the other of them, is wrong, or lies, if you will. That you have accepted Mormonism as truth, suggests to me that you have dismissed Chaos / God Makers, et al, as untruth, or error, or again, lies.
Being the curious sort that I am where human nature is concerned, that fascinates me.
And if you now believe Chaos of the Cults and Kingdom of the Cults to be untrue where Mormonism is concerned, do you also dismiss what those books have to say about Scientology, Rosicrucianism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.? Or do you view those as cults?
As for my screen name, years ago, one of the young ladies on the blog who had gone to PBC, expressed concern for her virtue, that an unscrupulous man might deprive her of same. In a lame attempt at humor, I took the screen name “Unscrupulous Man” … later, as I have wrestled with my carnal nature and with the words of Paul concerning same, decided it was a pretty good name and reminder of that which must be overcome in this life. There’s no real putting the natural man down this side of the grave, for every time a person thinks they’ve mastered the flesh, it makes a resurrection, until finally, it is dead for good and the spirit goes to be with the Lord.
Hello unscrupulous man,
. Thanks for indulging my curiousity regarding your screen name.
I feel like we are kind of getting to know each other
As far as those books are concerned I can not speak to the other religions discussed in those books as I can honestly say I have never stepped foot into one of their meetings.
As I began to investigate what those books had to say about Mormon Doctrine and compared them to what I was reading in the Manuels put out by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I too realized that one had to be wrong. So, I took a chance and starting visiting a chapel. I began listening to what was being taught and my spirit was being fed. The best way I can describe it is the feeling after you’ve fasted for three days and you finally get to eat. Then I realized that what was being taught and the experiences I was having at City Bible Church reflected more cultish tendencies than the Mormons. It would be interesting to see someone write a book about the whole MFI movement and see if they fit into the Kingdom of the Cults.
I know I probably didn’t answer all of your questions. It did take me a year and a half of study to finally take that chance and go to an LDS chapel so putting my whole experience here is not reasonable.
I hope that answers a little of your curiosity.
Sincerely
Melissa
While I was doing my morning devotionals I read this. This is one of my favorite talks.
http://www.google.com/search?q=brad+wilcox+his+grace+is+sufficient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
Oops. The above Link is incorrect. Here is the correct link.
http://sviewp.com/GD-NT/NT%2026-%20Supp-%20Willcox-%20His%20Grace%20Is%20Sufficient.pdf
I find it interesting that Jesus, Jesus Christ, and Heavenly Father are mentioned at least 20 times more (that’s not just 20 more times, that’s multiplied by 20) in her meeting than in CBC’s service. Last time I visited CBC, I think I heard any of those names mentioned fewer than 5 times, all together. I think we ought to return to the reason this blog was created, and stop the fight before it gets any farther.
NSQ,
Thank you so much for that comment. You are right. This is not the forum to be discussing Mormonism. Thanks again for reminding us what this blog is about.
Best to all of you.
Are you kidding me? Please discuss Mormonism here. I’m fascinated.
In college, I had to write a paper on “cults”, and I chose to write the paper about Mormons. I concluded that Mormons have a lot of cult-like tendencies. However, my church also exhibited a lot of the same behaviors. And so, if Mormons are a cult, than so are a lot of Evangelical churches. (It was the beginning of the end for me, as for as church attendance)
Catalyst, this is a great comment!!! Love it! I’m sure it the most activity you’ve has on the blog for a while. Who knew my little comment would explode. I feel so popular
Honestly Melissa, I don’t claim by any stretch of imagination to be a Biblical scholar and know little or nothing of Mormon beliefs. If I sound like I mock then its because I don’t know what I am talking about.
Stephen,
I didn’t mean to let into you. That is kind of a joke in Mormon circles too. We have a sense of humor too.
Melissa – what you need is a good ‘ol fashion revelation of WHO Jesus truly is….the kind that The Father dropped on Peter . The kind that doesn’t come from book learn’n
or any man. Once that happens you will set a new 100 meter dash record sprinting from the Mormon church … guaranteed!
First of all I just want to say please be so careful about judging mine or any other persons relationship with Jesus. I know what you are saying. I know that a lot of Christians do not believe Mormons are Christians, however, you do not know me or my past. I do find it hard to have these discussions in email because you miss the tone at times of what is being really said. I know my Lord and Savior very personally. They have had Their hand on me. Yes I suffered abuses at CCC and CBC but I believe that same Jesus that saved me when I knelt down at an alter when I was 15 and asked him into my heart is the Jesus I serve today. I didn’t have to learn a new relationship when I became an LDS member. I just had a greater understanding of who He is. For example I never was taught in those previous churches that the earth was actually formed by Jesus. He is a huge part of the Old Testament. I thought he just showed up in Matthew in the New Testament when he was born. I hope that gives you a small example of the Jesus I serve. So if that is different than what you believe so be it.
we shouldnt be discussing water baptism either, the topic is mormonism so why is there doctrine off limits? thanks catalyst! if you don’t want to answer the questions melissa just say so, and i can leave it at that.
No, I will answer as many questions you want to lob. However, I don’t know how fruitful you will be or what good will really come out of it.
I threw water baptism out there as a topic of discussion. The reason I did this is because I was having a discussion with a dear friend who grew up with me who is still a member of one of the churches that are often discussed on this blog. I asked her when water baptism began and she said “with John the Baptist”. I thought I knew that is what we were taught growing up. Since I’ve learned the fullness of the gospel I learned that baptisms have been preformed anciently and Jesus was not the first man on earth to be baptized. In fact he didn’t even need to. He was a spotless lamb, however, he knew it was a commandment and an ordinance that needed to be preformed. He did it as an example to all of us.
He intercedes day and night for me. What a wonderful savior and friend!
If I were going to compare orthodox Christianity with Mormonism, I would probably start with the topic of who Jesus is. I have found in talking to other Mormons, that it is essential to define terms.
Many people believe that Mormonism is a branch of orthodox Christianity because they use similar terminology. Mormons differ from orthodox Christianity in the definitions of those terms.
Is Melissa up for a conversation? If not, then I guess we can move on.
Sure, I’ll chat Anna. Please see my posts to others.
Hey, my reason for the blog is because we are all Seekers. In our old life we hung up our brains at the door and willfully submitted to brainwashing. Hey Melissa if your a true believer then share the truth that you believe. We are not babes anymore but survivors. We can take a different viewpoint.
Can you tell us about the Jesus you believe in?some desriptions?who he is &was? Anything? If not, then it makes me question if you know who the mormon jesus is compred to the Jesus of the Bible. Would the God of the book of mormon tell anyone to do something contrary to the 10 commandments? Lie, steel, etc…
We believe in the Savior of John 3:16 if you read some of my other posts that I just put out there that may answer your question. Maybe not.
Here is a link to who we believe Jesus Christ is. Hope this helps answer your question further.
http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/christ?lang=eng&letter=c
It would also be interesting to follow the links to additional topics at the bottom of that page.
Once again all the best truly.
I just read your link, and the 1st thing that jumped out at me was “the firstorn of the Father in the spirit” and like I said before mormonism teaches that Jesus & lucifer are spirit borthers, along with everyone else. This is appostacy, angels are not sons of God. They are not equal to Jesus. Jesus is God! Just as the Holy Spirit & the Father are God.
Secondly the “Grand council” that it talks about Jesus being at is were mornonism teaches that both Jesus & lucifer brought a plan of salvation to Father God & Jesus’s plan was to let people choose it by free will, but lucifers plan was to not let them have a choice, but make them. Jesus’s plan was accepted & lucifer’s rejected, resulting in him being cast down out of heaven.
This is found nowhere in the Bible & is all part of Joseph Smith’s interpretation of the antient egyptians burial practices, which he falsely interpreted thru a seeing stone which he put in a hat, then stuck his face in & supposedly wrote the book of mormon, pearl of great price, and doctrin & covenants. Its easy to decieve people back in the 1800′s when there was no dna testing, & archeological advanement which we have today, Not to mention the ability to translate the same egyptian scrolls which JS got his translations from which show that his interpretation was false.
Thanks, Melissa. I read the definition of Christ on the web-page you referenced. Although much of the terminology mirrors NT language, there are a couple of phrases wherein the differences between Mormonism and orthodoxy can be seen:
“…the firstborn of the father in the spirit…” This means that Jesus had a beginning. Christianity teaches that Jesus had no beginning; he is eternal going both ways on the timeline. On the side, I would ask, if God is his spirit father, then who is the mother?
“…the only begotten of the father in the flesh…” This pre-supposes that the father had relations with Mary to produce a child. Christianity would reference both Matthew and Luke which says that his conception was through the Holy Spirit.
Let’s say, for argument’s sake that there was a “Grand Council” and that Jesus’ destiny was laid out there. What is the Mormon definition of “atonement” as referenced in the article?
I don’t doubt your salvation one bit Melissa, and I think you’re pretty brave to speak up about your beliefs here, knowing most wouldn’t agree. At the same time I think Scrup has some personal experiences and valid warnings worth hearing about. But even if that doesn’t click for you, welcome to the blog and glad you’re out of the cultic like traits of the MFI churches!
Your comment made me smile. Thanks!
I am so glad, in fact words can not begin to express how happy that I am free from men like Steve Meistrell, Ken Wilde and Frank Damazio!!!!
My Savior has been good to me and I love Him so much.
Take care.
Oops, I just named names
I just read your link, and the 1st thing that jumped out at me was “the firstorn of the Father in the spirit” and like I said before mormonism teaches that Jesus & lucifer are spirit borthers, along with everyone else. This is appostacy, angels are not sons of God. They are not equal to Jesus. Jesus is God! Just as the Holy Spirit & the Father are God.
Secondly the “Grand council” that it talks about Jesus being at is were mornonism teaches that both Jesus & lucifer brought a plan of salvation to Father God & Jesus’s plan was to let people choose it by free will, but lucifers plan was to not let them have a choice, but make them. Jesus’s plan was accepted & lucifer’s rejected, resulting in him being cast down out of heaven.
This is found nowhere in the Bible & is all part of Joseph Smith’s interpretation of the antient egyptians burial practices, which he falsely interpreted thru a seeing stone which he put in a hat, then stuck his face in & supposedly wrote the book of mormon, pearl of great price, and doctrin & covenants. Its easy to decieve people back in the 1800?s when there was no dna testing, & archeological advanement which we have today, Not to mention the ability to translate the same egyptian scrolls which JS got his translations from which show that his interpretation was false.
We believe that the Bible is the Word of God, however we also believe that it is not all inclusive of everything God did, does and will do. We believe Isaiah prophesied that 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel would be scattered. We believe Jesus was talking about these lost tribes in John 10:16 “and other sheep I have which are not of this fold them also must I bring and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”. Jeremiah 16:14-15 says” therefore behold, the days come sayeth the Lord, that it shall no more be said, the Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; but, the Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands wither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers”. We believe these groups also had prophets and prophesies that they were commanded to write. We believe the Book of Mormon as one of these records. There are lots of prophets and their writings that we currently do not have. Joseph Smith was just another one of those chosen in the last days to bring forth one of those records.
I often wonder when Jesus walked the Earth as He was teaching and preaching things to the multitudes that were unfamiliar to them, that were not in their “Bible”, would I have listened and recognized Him as the Son of God?
The thread title could just as easily have been:
City Bible Turns Christians into Morons
Melissa,
If what you say about there being other writings is true, don’t you think they would be in harmony to the Bible, since the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Bible was written over a period of about 1600 years with 40 different authors, and there are no discrepencies in it. Everything written is in harmony with each other, but when you try to throw the book of mormon or any of JS writings in there they just dont jive.
The other sheep that Jesus is referencing are the gentiles who would believe. Thats why he says they are from another flock, if they were of the original 12 tribes they would be of the same flock, just lost.
The land God gave to the 12 tribes is the land of Israel, which like the scrip in Jer. says He gave to their fathers. There was no lost tribe of Israel in North America. I know JS says the indians were one of the lost tribes, but DNA testing has shown that to be incorrect.
What lost Tribe was JS from? What lost tribe are you from?
Your link on Jesus also said that Jesus is the God of the Whole earth. He is God of all creation not just on earth but all-in-all. This points to the other false teaching in Mormonism that you all get your own planet to be “god” over. This is rediculous.
Are you temple worthy?
Hi monte
Do a Google search on “bible discrepancies”. I think you might be surprised or at least a bit more educated.
I had 2 encounters with Mormons,in the past 2 weeks. The first time I talked to them it was for a short time but it left me frustrated hearing them saying that they believe the same thing I believe, of course as I discovered later, they don’t.They only told me the what we have in common but their definitions of salvation, holy spirit, satan, Jesus, God, etc, are all twisted. I found great resource here.
http://www.carm.org/mormonism
I attended CBC for short period, now I go to a smaller church, i find it more suitable for me.
Back to the story,a week later they came back and I had done some research and had lots of questions.I didn’t want to play ping-pong through the Bible so I tried to focus on the subject of grace.
Here’s some verses from the book of mormon:
2 Nephi 25:23 “For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”
Notice,”after all we can do” (works)
Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
Notice, you need to deny all ungodliness, to love God, and then His grace will be sufficient. So in order to receive grace from God, you must be perfect first.
From these writings and from I was talking to them, they could not really explain what grace is. They understood the relationship between faith and works.They couldn’t explain or understand the relationship between grace and works. I went with them through all the verses that talked about grace from Ephesians, Romans which say that it’s by grace alone we are saved, apart from works. Works come as a result of us receiving grace from God not as a pre-requisite. Even though they ultimately wanted to agree with me, i think that’s one of Mormon’s strategy to frustrate someone but their gospel is indeed another Gospel, why else would they try to evangelize Christians?
“But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.”
Here’s Apostle Paul’s thought’s about anyone who preaches another gospel:
Galatians 1:6-10
“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant[b] of Christ.”
Matthew 7:15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”
2 Corinthians 11:1-15 also talks about false prophets.
Mormonism is not a christian denomination, how they pretend to be. Maybe that’s the sheep’s clothing their trying to put on. The truth is that their teachings are not in agreement at all with the Bible at all.
From this experience i decided to be more determinate in studying the Bible consistently so that I would be ready to give a defense of the reason of hope that is in me.(paraphrased) 1 Pet 3:15-17
That’s excellent, florin. It is true that the language can be the same, but the meanings can be different. But when you compare the regular Bible with the mormon writings, you find that the definitions are completely opposite. Sneaky, eh?
thanks, yeah sneaky, but mostly deceived as they are not allowed by the church to to interpret or think/reason/question the teachings of smith and the other “apostles” . They can only affirm the teachings of smith, and other “apostles” . On top of that they are told that the Bible must be interpreted and corrected by the writings of smith.
John Mcarthur on evangelizing mormons,interesting.
WOW, I don’t know what crawled up this guys hole and died. I noticed how seething his tone of voice is. He *really* feels strongly about this stuff. I don’t know all the teachings of the Mormon church but it seems to me just from this blog and other things I’ve seen, out of all the false religions out there (including MFI churches) those Mormons sure get the brunt. I don’t know if I can trust a guy who has the nerve to judge a whole group of people as going to hell or whatever he said at the very start of his rant. I haven’t even heard the Jehovah’s witnesses get it this bad.
I just did a google search on John Macarthur. I like information. I encourage all bloggers to read it. What a guy….
I have a question for all of you….if the Bible is inerrant then which one should be believed? There are so many versions. Our guy Mcarthur even has one that he sells.
Here is some food for thought:
“All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”
- – Arthur Schopenhauer
I understand grace.
Here is a talk given at BYU that I referenced earlier. Hope that clears up what we believe about grace.
http://sviewp.com/GD-NT/NT%2026-%20Supp-%20Willcox-%20His%20Grace%20Is%20Sufficient.pdf
You really need to clear up is what you believe about Jesus.
If you put the first button in the second button hole the rest becomes somewhat of an egnima. Jesus is the starting point of everything.
determinate*, correct: Determined , last paragraph. I wrote it in a rush, apologize for any other errors.
Here is great way to reach out to Mormons.
http://www.equip.org/articles/an-alternative-approach-to-reaching-mormons
I find the link interesting on how to evangelize mormons. I just googled what Lutherans believe as that is who authored that link. The link I’m attaching is from that google search. When I went the the bottom the person who wrote it has quite an impressive resume. It is amazing what can be found on the internet.
http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Will_the_Real_Martin_Luther_Please_Stand_Up.html
OK, I need to come clean about why I really didn’t want to join the Mormon church.
1) I like beer.
It’s bad enough packing a Bible, study guide and concordance into fellowship, now add the BOM, POGP, D&C, et al and a guy could get a hernia carrying all that.
2) A lot.
3) I enjoy the occasional cigar.
4) The thought of more than 1 wife terrifies me. Imagine some poor Mormon with 4 wives and the probability that at least 1 of them would have PMS on any given day.
5) A crewcut reveals the point on my head.
6) I don’t like riding bicycles, because I’m reminded of an old and severe groin injury.
7) The day I joined I’d have been a “Jack” mormon, literally.
9) Family Home Evening is on the same night as Modern Family.
10) If I wanted 9 kids, I’d coach a little-league team.
1-2. Beer… ew.
3. You know that when women live together, their cycles synchronize. Now you’ve got 4 women (and their daughters) all PMS at the same time. Whoo-eee! Do you think Jacob had his own tent?
No there is some TRUTH!!!
I meant *now* there is some truth.
Dear god … poor Jacob … but are you saying Jacob was a Mormon ?!?
No, I just meant he had the two wives and their, um, lady servants.
He predates the appearance of Moron(i). So he couldn’t be a mormon… or a republican either, hehe.
This should be on David Letterman.
I prefer to read out of the new american standard bible because it has the strongs reference for each word used so you can look them up in the greek or hebrew. The blue letter bible online has easy access to this translation & many other versions.
great documetary!!!
A documentary that dives into the differences between legalistic religion and true redemption found in Christ. Produced by Brad Eggerton & James Anderson.
The film was shot all over the Salt Lake Valley from 2009-2011 and includes interviews on the streets with many LDS people, along with many interviews with people who minister to the LDS, including Sandra Tanner, Shawn McCraney, Russ East, Bill McKeever, Doris Hanson, and more.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/eternity.htm
I tried to post this earlier gives us all some food or thought
What happened to Melissa? Is she MIA? Whats the dilly yo!
As a whole, I enjoy learning about science, beliefs, religions,
philosphy (Education, religion, and seeking truth – It beats the
Hollyweird media that is presented as entertainment). I really think,
it doesnt matter what a person believes- as long as people treat each
other respectfully, keeps the peace, and make a good neighbors – all
is well imo. I recently read a article stating a certain religion
(Mormonism) is a cult.
In review of Mormonism (with the majority of religions including the
bulk of Christanity) – it does qualify for a “religious following”
that has some really obvious contradictions against the OT/NT
scripture and history (just as the blog has stated).
( DISCLAIMER -please dont interpret this as a slam against Mormonism -
it isn’t. I have a number of Mormon friends and ADMIRE and have the
HIGHEST regard to their family values, practices and character. Being
Jewish and a disciple of Christ, I just don’t “get” Joseph Smith / Mormon Theology).
After thinking about it – I was wondering what do people think of when
they look at the Christianity and what it stands for ? How about a
introspective view ? It is always a good idea to consider both
viewpoints before judging (we are to judge ourselves – this is what
the scriptures say the last time I checked).
In review of Western Christianity as a whole – it does qualify for a
“religious following/cult ” too imo.
There are SO MANY current practices that are clearly against the
OT/NT scriptures.
Allow me to point out a few of the “screaming obvious” Christian practices that are
anti-scriptural points of the teachings of Christ and the apostles.
- TV Evangelist/ Churches begging for money while wearing $1000 +++
suits and other things( Jesus never asked for money)
- Church Laity (never mentioned – Paul mentions the Body of Christ.
What is in place today is modern pagenism from the study of scriptures
and documented history).
- Building Churches and programs instead of giving to the poor,widows,
and orphans as commanded in the OT / NT
- Salvation as “a ticket” to heaven (no where does it say – when one
dies they go to heaven). Salvation involves real repentance and is all
encompassing.
- Accept Jesus / 4 steps of salvation ( Not scriptural – Discipleship
is life encompassing )
- Lack of real discipleship teaching / repentance ( Not scriptural)
- Perversion of Pauls teaching turning forgiveness into license to
continue in sin (2 Peter 3:15-17). This is a big deal. Educated
theologians have jumped on board and have done the same thing.
- Grace/rapture theology that teaches a change in location vs. a
spiritual / moral change into the image of Christ ( this is a whole
different topic itself -it is about change and not change of location)
- Loss of the original message of the Kingdom, Repentance, and,
Baptism ( John the Baptist, Christ, and the apostles taught this –
check it out).
- Casualness of Christianity – Lukewarm is NOT a good thing- Rev. 3:16
and a whole mess of other parables (talents, sower, tares, unfaithful
steward, virgins, wedding feasts etc…)
- Salvation is a process and is conditional (Mark 13:13, Matt 13 just
to name a few)
- Restored fellowship is the goal and the reward is Eternal life
(Eternal life is mentioned 43 times in the NT and a whole mess of
times in the OT)
-Mormons know the KJV bible better than Christians (I have found this to be true as did a reputable secular source study).
-Mormon families have the lowest divorce rate and out of wedlock childbirth.
-Mormons dress and act like Christians. Take a look at the bulk of Mormon family vs. the bulk of the modern Christian family. The behavior and the dress is vastly different. Mormons do a great job of coming out of holiness in speech and conduct.
- Their KJV biblical theology is exceptional. They get Kingdom of God, reserection, and change. Mormons can easily tear apart the Grace, Rapture, Heaven doctrine that is prevalent in current Christian doctrine.
- In review of their 13 beliefs they are scripturally sound except for the book of Mormon and the lost 10 tribes.
Btw, If Christ were to come today – I sincerely believe 98% of the
Christian religious leaders would persecute Him just as the Jewish
Pharisees did. Why ? Because Westen Christianity itself has turned
into a money begging religious cult that no longer resembles Christian
Discipleship in the NT bible. Christ always comes in a way we don’t
expect Him nor the time ( ie very low key and different than people
think). The Jews didnt recognize their Messiah and neither did Herod.
However, the thief on the cross did ( who would expect to see the
Creator of the Universe on a cross ? May I suggest, He is found at the
least likely and most humble of circumstances).
I have met only a handful of “real deal” Christian disciples that
actually “walk the talk” and it is obvious in their actions,
character, morals, and integrity. They are not flashy and are the most
down to earth humble people I have met. Needless to say, I covet to be
like them in a “good way” to imitate them as they imitate Christ and
the apostles.
What hit me – God doesn’t need money, someone once said – “He is
literally the richest Jew in the universe”.
He always pays for what He orders ( remember Corneilius the Roman centurion ?).
He is after individuals who will lay aside “everything” and blindly
follow after Christ as the Apostle Paul did. God deals with
individuals who obey and love Him – the scripture clearly points this
out in OT / NT. The majority of Mormons do a better job at this than the majority of Christians.
Btw, I concluded if a persons Christianity is a “religion / attending
church” and not a “real relationship with Jesus” then may I suggest
that one is involved in a money grabbing religious cult or deception ?
FollowingJesus means obeying His commandments and it is very demanding – if one is serious about this – Jesus becomes real and a relationship begins
as Christ becomes very very real. It actually becomes “easier” to obey
/ follow despite harder situations (people will do anything for a good
friend – this is where obeying Christ becomes easier).
As usual – check out the scriptures and if you don’t believe me or
them, then ask Jesus for yourself:)
Dear antipas knight ,
I don’t know who you are but this is a pretty amazing entry. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you post before. I respect your intelligence and obvious relationship with Jesus. This is worth pondering and in my opinion responding to.
Best to you.
Many thanks Melissa – thank you for the kind words…
I am just a dude who loves Jesus and want more of Him… He is worth it and the only thing worthwhile imo.
Shalom,
Antipas Knight
Something I don’t get…
Christians who get really pushed out of shape over mormonism. Not talking about here, but in person I’ve seen people go from all smiles to almost uncontrolled anger when talking about or even to mormons. In some extreme cases I would even see the christian lose it, while the mormon remained calm and peaceful. I remember saying to one pastor friend of mine who was holding classes about Mormonism being a cult, “But really, what is the difference between catholicism and mormonism? After all, the errors from both is from adding to the scriptures. In some ways catholicism could be considered worse, since you’ve got to go through Mary to get to Jesus. But nobody seems to want to have classes on how to combat catholicism.”
Anyway, I just decided the argument way was not the best way unless you really knew your stuff and could reason without yelling and getting pushed out of shape. He that winneth souls is wise. A soft answer turns away wrath, not the other way around.
Good thoughts, Jay. From my experience, a lot of Evangelicals don’t consider Catholics “real” Christians either.
That is unless you go Regent University aka Pat Robertsons school where many Catholics hold high positions in the administration and academia.
For anyone interested, again I talked to same mormons, this is probably for the last time. After hearing them out about the pre-existence. they said that we all pre-existed as spirits in a world before this one and decided to come here with physical bodies. My immediate question to them was, “what about aborted children? have they changed their mind in the last minute?” they couldn’t answer that. I thought that was funny. By the end of the discussion their only proof that Joseph Smith is a prophet from God was to tell me :
“pray and ask God sincerely if what I’m telling you is true”
You can never find such statement if the Bible. Jesus says in John 5:39,to search the scriptures,and that the scriptures testify about him,not through prayer, Paul in Acts 17:2,3 uses reason to explain and prove Christ from the Scriptures. In 2 Cor 11:4-6, Christians in Berea did not take Apostle’s words for granted but examined the Scripture to see if whether what he preached was truth. It’s not biblical to pray to whether something is true or not. Any religion can claim that. You cannot know Christ apart from the Word of God.
FAITH COMES BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD. Romans 10:17
The ability to believe is not determined by how i feel when i pray but by the knowledge of truth found in the word of Christ. Truth is objective, unbiased. Feelings are subjective. Knowledge of truth is critical. Acts 17:2,3.
When something is at stake I want to put may faith in something concrete,objective and unbiased rather than how I feel about it.
Eternal life is at stake so. your choice.
John 5:39
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in
them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me”
2 Cor 11:4-6
“For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.”
Acts 17:2,3
And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.”
Acts 17:10-12
The brothers[b] immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Not in Corinthians, but Acts 17, the Bereans are presented.
I totally agree with you on Mormon theology – it isn’t scriptural nor does it make sense. I pointed out other obvious errors such as:
- gold plates ( no where mentioned in the KJV)
- Anti-Semitic (being Jewish and pointing out the replacement of the 12 tribes with their 10 tribes and Jerusalem in the USA . This one will pretty much stop them cold).
- No trace of civilization here vs. repeated historical genocide attempts of Jewish people throughout history. If God doesnt want a race of people of around – He will arrange for the destruction of it as seen in the OT.
If you read a earlier post – I pointed out the “screaming obvious errors” in current Christian churches.
When I look at Mormons, I see deception in theology and good behavior vs. the deception in main stream Christianity of behavior / character. May I suggest the latter carries far more serious consequences such as corruption as stated in the scriptures. IMO, it far more easier to change theology / belief than it is to convince a “Christian” that they are saved by “grace” and going to be “raptured” to “heaven” despite their unchanged behavior because “they accepted Jesus” ( all mentioned are unscriptural and yet is current Christian theology).
Christ warned about deception and apostasy – I really think we are experiencing the greatest deception and apostasy to date.
Shalom,
Antipas Knight
I agree with you about the errors many churches hold, but regarding Mormons. I don’t know how much they act as Christians. From what I read about the rules they have, also from testimonies of ex-mormons or people who were in contact with them, i came to the conclusion that they live in fear and are controlled by the church, and within they are not as happy as they present themselves on the outside. They seem obsessed with perfection,so I wonder how parents and children relationships are.
Their 3rd article of faith is interesting as they believe the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly and the Book of Mormon is the word of God as well. But their mistake is using the book of mormon to interpret the Bible, and there is the clash. The Bible not being “translated correctly” is their way of undermining the authority of the Bible. I researched about the historicity of the Bible and it’s amazing how accurate and how many copies of manuscripts are available today for inspection, around 20.000 or more.The book of mormon contains around 4000 word changes as well and by the words of Joseph Smith, the book of mormon is the most correct book in the world and contains the fullest of the gospel.
Doctrine is not the first issue when talking to them, the authority of Joseph Smith is the issue,whether he is a true prophet or not and the authority of the Bible.
Regarding heaven doctrine, they believe in 3 levels of heaven, and one hell, I don’t see how that is the same with the Bible’s view of heaven.
I read the article Melisa posted on grace
An illustration says:
“Fulfilling Christ’s requirements is like paying a mortgage instead of rent or like making deposits in a savings account instead of paying off debt. You still have to hand it over every month, but it is for a totally different reason.”
The problem I see with their definition of grace is as I talked to them, they don’t yet believe they are righteous yet. They believe i think somewhere in the future with their works and grace they will be justified, if they’ve done good enough works. The “good enough” part is their lack of confidence in the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement.They try to make themselves worthy every day by abiding in what they consider good works and teachings of Mormonism so that one day they’ll be good enough.
The illustration doesn’t make much sense, Christ paid it all, you don’t have to pay mortgage. Isn’t mortgage another kind of debt?
God demands continual perfection, and that only Christ satisfies. Matt 5:48
They can’t understand Romans 4:18 where as we inherited sin through Adam, now the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us as a gift and is available now. Through faith you are righteous now. Working out your salvation means continually and actively believing and living by the law of grace as a new creation in Christ where even our works are prepared ahead by God. Ephesians 2:10. That’s why no one should proud themselves on works. Under grace the wrath of God is taken away from us, guilt taken in the fight against sin and God is at work in us. Being under grace you are a slave to righteousness, being under law, you’re a slave to sin. Ro 6:6
“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.” Romans 4:4
the illustration was from this article. http://sviewp.com/GD-NT/NT%2026-%20Supp-%20Willcox-%20His%20Grace%20Is%20Sufficient.pdf
I retract my conclusion from the first paragraph. I don’t know myself how they live their lives within the family and among themselves or whether they are obsessed with perfection. But I found this article interesting. http://www.i4m.com/think/recovery/mormon_indoctrination.htm
Interesting article on indoctrination.
Just to keep things in perspective. What is commonly taught in Christian Churches to the “unsaved” ?
Let me know if I miss anything:
- “Accept Jesus in your heart” ( not scriptural)
- “Four steps of salvation” ( not scriptural )
- “Make a decision” ( btw – my personal favorite but not scriptural)
- How to go to heaven / TICKET (so funny that is is sad – not scriptural)
- Sinners prayer
Allow me to suggest that the bulk of Christianity is pretty much the same thing.
If churches actually taught what the bible said and listen to Jesus. There would be no buildings and money grabbing antics. It is too demanding as seen in John 6 – only the real disciples that Jesus chose would stick around. In addition, God could accomplish more.
Sure God could accomplish more, but how would anyone make a profit off of it? I mean, really, I think the “church” is open for change once they figure out how to tap into the wallet of all the “Non Sunday Service attending Christians”.
TYPO !!!
“When I look at Mormons, I see deception in theology and good behavior vs”
SHOULD BE
“When I look at Mormons, I see deception in theology”
I do agree with you in regards to the book of Mormon – it is distracting and takes aways precious time from studying Gods word.
However, permit me to offer a “Jewish” perspective. Much of Pauls writings (ie Romans are taken WAY out of context. Are we saved by grace – Of course. However, that means the “moral” law of the Torah is very much intact and in fact now much more strict ( ie look at a woman with lust = adultery as Jesus said).
The new covenant as stated in Heb 8 is the writing of Gods law on our hearts and mind vs. stone tablets. A disciple of Jesus is under the Torah – however it has transcended as seen in Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
A Christian that continues in known sin is not a Christian and will not inherit eternal life and the Kingdom of God
Galatians 5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
God expects us to overcome sin as CLEARLY stated in Rev 2&3 and 1 John and a whole mess of other scriptures.
The first covenant forgave sin and was limited to Israel.
The second covenant removes sin, guilt, and the compulsion – VERY FEW CHRISTIANS GET THIS. They honestly think they are going to be raptured to heaven or when somehow enter into heaven when they die by “accepting Jesus” ( all this is unscriptural- ALL).
This is where the bulk of Mormons absolutely “show more class” than the bulk of Christians. They get holiness, righteous, character, integrity, truth, family, and THEY KNOW THE BIBLE. In addition, they have the lowest divorce, lowest out of wedlock birthrate etc across the the board.
Are they perfect ? By all means no – but then again no one is but they are going for it .
That is where they get my respect and admiration. God expects perfection and will not settle for anything less.
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master
2 Corinthians 13:9
9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
2 Corinthians 13:11
11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Do a word search for perfect and perfection and see what you come up with.
God would never ask something from His children unless it could be done. Btw, Job, Abraham, and David are a few examples of what God considers perfect. Heck, take a look at the problem in the church of Cornith, 1 Jude, and Hebrews ( stern warning to very very very very very advanced Christians – I know I said very a bunch of times – the church hasnt caught up to them yet)
Pray and read and ask God for what HIS idea of perfection is: When I did – He showed me that His idea is quite different than ours.
Again, I dont agree with Mormon theology – they are deceived by the Joesph Smith Theology as is the HUGE bulk of Christians that are deceived by this unconditional grace, rapture, heaven, accept Jesus unscriptural theology. And as a result – I see good character (speech, action, thoughts) and holiness vs. Christians behavior. This is DESPITE “wacked” Joesph Smith theology/teaching. God is very much a business man and reaps where He doesnt sow ( parable of the talents). I sincerely believe in time God will reveal His truth to them – He does to people who love and obey Him.
However, allow me to suggest that before one judges another – judge oneself, ask God to judge you ( as did David), and take a really hard look for fruit / change. If a person hasn’t changed or doesn’t obey the teaching of Jesus / apostles since they “accepted Jesus” then they are not disciples. And if they not disciples – then they not a Christian.
Thank you for your thoughts, I do believe, as a follower of Christ I must overcome sin. In the church I used to visit, never heard a sermon about repentance, only about the new life in Christ. I don’t think someone can’t have one without the other.The path is narrow.
This is a great excerpt from a commentary about grace, really interesting:
”Someone confronted Martin Luther, upon the Reformer’s rediscovery of the biblical doctrine of justification, with the remark, “If this is true, a person could simply live as he pleased!” “Indeed!” answered Luther. “Now, what pleases you?” Augustine was the great preacher of grace during the fourth and fifth centuries. Although his understanding of the doctrine of justification did not have the fine-tuned precision of the Reformers, Augustine’s response on this point was similar to Luther’s. He said that the doctrine of justification led to the maxim, “Love God and do as you please.” Because we have misunderstood one of the gospel’s most basic themes, Augustine’s statement looks to many like a license to indulge one’s sinful nature, but in reality it touches upon the motivation the Christian has for his actions. The person who has been justified by God’s grace has a new, higher, and nobler motivation for holiness than the shallow, hypocritical self-righteousness or fear that seems to motivate so may religious people today.”
Michael Horton, The Agony of Deceit, Moody Press, 1990, pp. 143-144.
I will try do the word study on the word perfection . thank you.
Sorry Antipas I don’t understand your differing points. Accept Jesus (as Lord), Receive Jesus (as Lord), Believe Jesus (to be Lord), or give your life (to follow the Lord as His disciple), all seem pretty synomous to me and in line with scripture. More semantics than anything else.
4 steps to salvation to salvation, usually laid out something like: 1. All are sinners, born into sin, 2. the wages or result of our being sinners is death, 3. God through Jesus’s death and resurrection, made a way for man’s sins to be forgiven, and 4. We must individually receive Him, accepting Christ and His salvation, in order for that to take effect – all seem solidly based on scripture..
The act of receiving, believing, following, or accepting Him as Lord in order to have His new life and from that point please God, is “making a decision”. In fact as quirky as a ticket to heaven sounds, I don’t even see anything blatantly “anti-scriptural” about that, since the simple scriptural truth is that “he who believes in Me has eternal life”, nor “sinner’s prayer” since that’s what we truly all are.
Terminology may differ or be out of date (which makes me wonder why you quote so much from the KJV), but generally these basic tenets are not indicative of a “HUGE bulk of Christians that are deceived by this unconditional grace, rapture, heaven, accept Jesus unscriptural theology” as you say.
I think you’d perhaps be wiise to follow your own advice, ” allow me to suggest that before one judges another – judge oneself, ask God to judge you.”
I have tremendous respect for the Jewish elements and roots of our Christian heritage, both of our Messianic brothers and sisters and even National Israel. I believe much more than the old Bible Temple teaching taught, that by the end of the age our Jewish brethren will take more of the center stage. But at the same tim, I’d like to suggest to you, that that does not give license to blast away at “the bulk of Christianity.”as being apostate because they use the word “accept” ” Jesus or they don’t see “perfection” the same way you do, Again, I think that maybe falls under the category, “before one judges another – judge oneself, ask God to judge you.”
Just food for thought.
Hey Jayjacque – I can appreciate the point as simply the IC/evangelicalism promotes a formulaic approach to salvation / faith, which appeals to the realm of the mind / our intelligence. The Lord however, appeals to the heart and the Spirit – saying “God is Spirit and we must worship Him in spirit and in truth” (in other words, “God is spirit, we must respond to him spiritually …”) – likewise, Jesus said in John 6 “my words are spirit” ….
At times, I think the single biggest fault of the IC/evangelicalism/churchianity, is their inclination to interpret the word literally and physically (intellectually), rather than spiritually … the IC/evangelicals seem to be about DOing, rather than simply BEing, in the Lord … – DOing is works based, BEing is faith based … if you drift my get.
What I’d like Antipast(a) to explain, is his name.
What I’d like Antipas to explain, is his picture?
Be honest: Did you take your dog to the JC Penny Portrait Studio?
Your point is ???? I suspect a Ad hominem ( look it up – it is worth knowing).
Titan is my blue merle collie and is my kid.
-I shot with a Canon 5d & 40d & 24-70L f2.8 & 70-200L f4 IS – mostly sports, people, and nature.
- Photography is a hobby
That is one of the few pictures of Titan and me since very few people know how to use a professional DSLR camera.
That picture was on a Barlett Lake in AZ while I on my wakeboarding boat with really good friends. Good time, clean fun, with Titan and awesome friends.
I’m mostly joking, Mike. You have a beautiful dog. I just like the thought of you and your dog getting pictures at a department store photo shop. It makes me laugh. But then, I sometimes have an odd sense of humor.
Well Justin, better to be photographed with your dog, than with your mother.
Antipasta, after shooting digital for several years, I went back to my OM-1 and OM-2, and picked up a couple of Yashica TLR cameras for 120/220 film work. I love shooting with Tri-X and developing in Diafine. Only digital I have left is a superzoom – Panasonic DMC-FZ35 Lumix – does well enough for me. The Olympus OM-1 and -2 have about 2 dozen lenses for all the SLR fun I can handle. Restored both cameras a year or 2 ago for light seals and metering with modern batteries. Hauling the kit around is a workout though.
Touche. Lord knows, I don’t have any room to talk.
Always a really good idea to stay in the scriptures. I’ll go through this since this is the reason for the apostasy to date and the pretzel bending of the scriptures in current Christian belief.
In regards to semantics, it is destructive. That is what Satan used with Eve/Adam and the results to date have been 6000 years of misery. What God says He means- one will reap exactly what they sow.
What does the bible say to salvation ?
-Christ, John the Baptist, and the apostles taught repentance, coming judgment, the Kingdom, and baptism. If I am wrong – please show the scripture
- God accepts us. We don’t accept Him.
2 Cor 6
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
Matt 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
As you mentioned “4 steps to salvation to salvation, usually laid out something like…”
What does the bible say ???
- Discipleship is all encompassing and salvation is a process of denying yourself, picking up your cross, and following Him “daily”
- He who endures to the end shall be saved
- “shalt be saved” Doesn’t say you are…Says “you will be”…check it out
Romans 10if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
- Remember the parable of the sower ? Only one type of four types of ground brought forth a crop… some 30, 60, and 100?
- Salvation involves true repentance and is all encompassing. Salvation is a process in which God will discipline with trials, tribulations, sickness to drive sin and self seeking out and in process developing a relationship with Jesus through the Spirit to become a dwelling place for God. THERE IS A VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHRIST “WITH YOU” vs “CHRIST IN YOU”- This is the mystery of the gospel that Paul talked about.
As you mentioned
“The act of receiving, believing, following, or accepting Him as Lord in order to have His new life and from that point please God, is “making a decision”. In fact as quirky as a ticket to heaven sounds, I don’t even see anything blatantly “anti-scriptural” about that, since the simple scriptural truth is that “he who believes in Me has eternal life”, nor “sinner’s prayer” since that’s what we truly all are.”
Allow me to say you contradicted yourself….. There is a vast difference between ”ticket to heaven” and “eternal life”.
- heaven is a place
- Eternal life is a state of existence.
- One is “a place” and the other is a “state of being”. Everyone will have eternal existence ( ie unbelievers, demons, anti-christ, overcomers). Only overcomes will possess “eternal life” – there is a vast difference. It is referred to as a “crown of life”.
- The goal is the FIRST resurrection – this is mentioned in the writings of Christ, Paul, Book of Revelation, and a whole mess of OT scriptures.
-
- In addition, NOWERE in the scriptures does it mention when we die “we go to heaven”. If it does, please show it and name 5 things that we will do in heaven. Eternal life is mentioned 47 on the NT and a whole mess in the OT. How heaven became a goal is a deception of the enemy – it leaves people doing nothing and waiting till they die vs. pressing into knowing Christ as Paul.
- Gods judgment and Kingdom are “coming to the earth”.
- God is dealing with a “elect” to bring forth kings, judges, firstfruits, as brothers of Christ and bride of the Lamb, etc. This “elect “ is both Jew and Gentile to form “one new man” (Rom 9, 10, 11).
- The rewards are to the overcomers ONLY….If one doesnt overcome then the outcome is disasterous….
Peace…
Explain my name.. LOL…
In the Bible, the man named Antipas is mentioned only in the Book of…
Revelation, Chapter 2, Verse 13 and is described as a martyr for the Christian faith; described as a “faithful witness” of Christ Jesus; and described as dwelling and ministering where Satan had his seat (Pergamos).
As tradition – Antipas was reputed to be the Bishop of the Christian church at Pergamos, and that he was martyred for his faith because of his consistent faithful witnessing in the face of all the satanic evil present there.
When he was told: “Antipas, the whole world is against you!”, Antipas reputedly replied: “Then I am against the whole world!”
Antipas was supposedly roasted alive in a hollow life-size bull, which had a bonfire under its belly, because Antipas refused to renounce his faith in Christ Jesus.
Antipas – means against all.
This really really inspires me to say the least.
I guess we’ll just disagree, because I just might be one of those apostates.
I confess, I “accepted” God’s terms, “accepted” Him as Lord, prayed a “sinner’s prayer” because I was and am a sinner (though forgiven), and yeah I know He chose me first, but there came a time that I had to receive Him, answer the call if you will.
And I believe that if I die before He comes back, which now seems to be pretty likely, then according to Phil. 1:21-23, that I will go be with the Lord, who has His throne in heaven, so I guess that means I’m going there too. Whether a place or state of existence or both, most of us, including me and including you, do not fully understand exactly what that means.
And I confess I look forward with anxious anticipation, now more than ever, the rapture or second coming of Christ, whatever you want to call it. Just come Lord Jesus. (though the word “rapture” is not found in the bible, its meaning is clearly scriptural of Christ’s return and our meeting Him in the air and forever being with the Lord). If you think that’s a sign of apostacy, I think you’re a little whack, because that hope makes serving Him in the here and now all the more important, not less.
And call me naive, but if someone wants to just add some slang in terminology, “ticket to heaven”, why the heck not? Who cares? I doubt that’s even being used much anymore, as it’s pretty outdated.