There is an interesting debate taking place in the Mormon thread, regarding salvation and what it takes to get into heaven. In one comment, Antipas states:
However, permit me to offer a “Jewish” perspective. Much of Pauls writings (ie Romans are taken WAY out of context. Are we saved by grace – Of course. However, that means the “moral” law of the Torah is very much intact and in fact now much more strict ( ie look at a woman with lust = adultery as Jesus said).
The new covenant as stated in Heb 8 is the writing of Gods law on our hearts and mind vs. stone tablets. A disciple of Jesus is under the Torah – however it has transcended as seen in Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
A Christian that continues in known sin is not a Christian and will not inherit eternal life and the Kingdom of God
My take is that everyone, even Christians after they are saved, continue in “known sin”. Christians may stop the easily identifiable “sins” – Drugs, Sex and Rock & Roll. But the more abstract sins — pride, anger, lust, greed — are all still very much present.
A reader also pointed me to Acts 15, which discusses the different requirements between Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles. I had not read this chapter in awhile, so I was a little surprised to see that apparently at one point, according to the Bible, the amount of skin on a man’s penis affected his Salvation.
…and Mormons have the crazy religion.
I think ultimately it’s a your “mindset” that determines where you’ll wind up.
If you “knowingly” continue in sin… thinking along the lines of, “Hey, I’m saved so it really doesn’t matter if I steal that candy or chop of that guy’s head. Thanks GRACE OF GOD!”.
Well… that kind of thinking probably means your “heart of hearts” is a little twisted and you don’t actually “believe” what you think. It’s an intellectual believe and nothing else.
Such “belief” will not get one into heaven, imho.
However… if you do your best every day to follow God’s law in your heart. Always try your best to listen to the holy spirit and follow what he is telling you, etc… but then you have a lapse in judgement and let your “little head” rule your life for a while and get someone elses wife pregnant… well.. my thinking is that if you are TRULY sorry for what you did, and you TRULY were not simply thinking “God will forgive me so it’s ok” the whole time… then you’ll probably squeek by into a doghouse in heaven.
God judges our heart, not our action.
Note: Probably not the best idea to take post-life advice from some dude on the internet.
Dear Catalyst,
Lets take a look at the scripture about pride, anger, lust, greed as you mentioned.
Note there are two resurrections as Paul and Christ mentioned.
Revelation of John 20:6
6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation of John 20:13-14
13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
The second death has power over the following:
Rev 21:88 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Note – there are 8 sins that the Lake of Fire have authority – they are “cowards, unbelieving, faithless, wicked, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, all liars
Does professing “Christ” insure First Resurrection ?
Does professing “Christ” insure safety from the Second Death.
Here are the scriptures – you can be the judge.
I Second Death
Revelation of John 2:10-11
10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’
Note – to him who overcomes. What happens if one doesn’t overcome ? Are they hurt by the second death ?
II. First Resurrection
Luke 20:35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,
Note:Considered worthy ?
Luke 14:14
14and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
Note: resurrection of the just ?
John 5:29
29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Note “those who have done good” ? This is de facto righteousness not imputed.
Philippians 3:10-11
10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
NOTE: I may attain ?? This was the Apostle Paul. Btw, the Greek is really unique on resurrection..it is “exanastasis” vs. anastasis… It resurrection means “out from”.
Allow me to suggest that Christ teachings are much more severe that what is taught… Note is is behavior and how we address known sin.
Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Matt 5:30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
But wait – I forgot God doesnt expect to be perfect or does He ???
Matt 5:48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Its a really good idea to have a talk with Jesus and ask Him “exactly” how to do this. He means exactly what He says – Exactly.
The greatest lie ever told to date is ” Did God really say/emean that ? Will you really die ” ????
Shalom,
Antipas Knight
I think Acts 15 makes it pretty clear that the gentile converts don’t have to become proselytes to become christians. It says to obstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication…Acts 15:29. It’s interesting that the ones who were initialy telling the gentiles they had to be circumcised & keep the law of Moses were Pharasees who believed v.5. Peter goes on to say why do they want to put God to the test by placing a yoke upon them that us and our fathers couldn’t bear. And we are saved throught the grace of Jesus Christ just like them.v10-11.
Then in Acts 21:19-25 when Paul goes before James and the elders in Jerusalem they tell him there are thousands of jews who are zealous for the law, and they have been told that Paul teaches jews who are among the gentiles to forsake Moses. v.25 Paul doesn’t deny it, neither does James or the elders. v.22 they say “what then is to be done”. Seems to me they don’t want the believing jews to be hindered, or deny the work of Paul among the gentiles which also has great fruit. Paul the cameleon, becomes a jew to the jews like he previosly teaches in 1 Cor 9:20, so he doesn’t cause them to stumble. Then they reference the letter written concerning the gentiles from Acts 15 about what is required of them, that would silence any arguements about Paul’s intructions for the gentiles not keeping the law. In v. 27 its the jews from asia that started the riot after they recognize Paul.
Ther are other scriptures like Eph 2:14-16 that says:
Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Eph 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Jesus came to break down the walls of division and establish peace by making all believers one in Him. We are all part of His body.
“A Christian that continues in known sin is not a Christian and will not inherit eternal life and the Kingdom of God”
That statement also bothered me, as well as some of his other emphasis on salvation being a process rather than experience (my words, not his). I think, in fact I know, we’re all a bunch of stinking sinners, and many of us made a commitment to serve Christ, and therefore from that point on seek to not sin and instead be instruments of righteousness. Blah, blah, blah, you know what I mean. But we ALL still do sin.
And yeah I think we’re all still going to heaven, or somewhere with God. (I don’t care where really, just get me out of here!) All us believers in Him, even the weakest and most mixed up ones, maybe even some mormons and some catholics, and some who are in cults, maybe even some MFI’ers too (hehe). I just think God who is love has got a lot bigger vision, heart, and plan than we give Him credit for.
jayjacque – if the scriptures bother you. Then support “going to heaven” with scriptures and if you can show 5 things what is will be done in “heaven”.
Before I list some key verses – Remember the 2 thieves on the cross ? Remember what one said – If you are the Son of God – GET US OUT OF HERE…
LUKE 24:39 ….. saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Salvation is a process – past, present, and future.
Past – Titus 1:1
- Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,
- For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5
As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven. Mark 4:10-12
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…” Eph. 1:3-5
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.Rom. 8:28-30
Present
2 Peter 1?
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
(See Rev 2:28 – this is given to overcomers. If one doesnt overcome – then it is NOT GIVEN.
In Rev 2 & 3 are all the rewards which tie in beautifully with the scriptures – CHECK IT OUT !!!! They are only given the overcomers – CHECK IT OUT.
Gal 4:19
19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
(Btw, the Church of Galatia were Spirit filled Saints – note “TILL CHRIST IS FORMED IN YOU)
1 TIm 6
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, where unto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
(NOTE – LAY HOLD OF ETERNAL LIFE )
?1 Tim 4
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
(NOTE (read previous verses for context) – THOU SHALL SAVE THYSELF )
Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God
(NOTE _ WE MUST THROUGH MUCH TRIBULATION)
1 Peter 4:18
And, if, the righteous man, is, with difficulty, saved, where then shall, the ungodly and sinful man, appear?
There Are Passages of Scripture That Point Toward the Cleansing of God’s People.
Salvation to come in the future will include the removing of sin from God’s people.
When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, (Isaiah 4:4)
And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. (Malachi 3:3)
And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Matthew 3:1)
We can see instantly in the above passages that we are not dealing here with the forgiveness of sin but with the REMOVAL OF SIN
1 Peter 4:1
?Christ, then, having suffered in flesh, do, ye also, with the same purpose, arm yourselves,—because, he that hath suffered in flesh, hath done with sins,
Removal of sin is salvation which leads to righteousness and eternal life.
FUTURE
The Scripture Teaches That Salvation, or Redemption, Will Come at the End of the Age.
Now here is a concept that should be given considerable thought. There are several verses of the New Testament stating that salvation is in the future.
But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. (Luke 21:28)
And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. (Romans 13:11) NOTE (our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed)
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30—NIV)
Who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. (I Peter 1:5—NIV)
We know the promised salvation is not to go to Heaven. People go to Heaven when they die, not at the coming of the Lord. The majority of God’s elect, from Abel forward, already are in the spirit Paradise. Therefore the statement “to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him” cannot possibly be referring to going to Heaven.
Check out the following:
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so only together with us would they be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39,40—NIV)
Those who “were all commended for their faith” are the heroes of faith of the Hebrews 11. We have no doubt most if not all of them are in the spirit Paradise above. I think you would agree with this.
But notice that “none of them received what had been promised.” They are in Heaven but they have not received the promise. Therefore residence in Heaven is not the promise. Obviously, from the two verses, the promised salvation is to come in the future.
BTW,Heaven and the Kingdom of God are not the same thing. There is much confusion over this today as though the two were synonymous.
-Heaven is a place in the spirit realm. In fact, there are at least three heavens.
- The Kingdom of God, on the other hand, is a realm of authority.
- Heaven was on the earth, so to speak, in the garden of Eden. But the Kingdom of God was not present.
-Sin began in Heaven but there is no sin in the Kingdom of God.
-We must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of God, not to enter Heaven.
Check ouy the following:
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 – I WARNED YOU AS I DID BEFORE WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM)
Now, why didn’t the Apostle Paul say “Those who live like this will not inherit Heaven?”
The reason is, inheriting Heaven is not the issue of the Bible. The issue is inheriting the Kingdom of God. There is no sin in the Kingdom of God because the Kingdom is the realm in which God’s will is done, God’s will is enforced. No one can inherit the Kingdom of God on the basis of grace or mercy.
We can enter the program of salvation by grace. The purpose of the program of salvation is to help us cleanse ourselves from sin so we can be part of the Kingdom of God.
An older gentleman who was a Christian once asked me, “how are you going to get forgiveness for committing adultery?” if you marry a divorced woman. I think the answer is in the Lord’s prayer, day by day we walk with Him, asking forgiveness for our sin, and forgiving others. If I forget for a few days, I return to find Him waiting for another conversation. The idea that we can live without sin in our current situation is far fetched.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8
CONTEXT…CONTEXT… CONTEXT
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Note that He:
-if we walk in the light
- cleanseth us from all sin
-If we confess our sins
- Just to forgive us our sins,
-cleanse us from all unrighteousness
When John the Baptist saw Christ ” Behold the lamb of God who TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD ( not forgive but remove big difference)
Moving forward IN CONTEXT
1 John 2
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Allow me to suggest this is a process. As God points out sin, He expects us to knock it off (repent), ask for forgiveness, and ask for help to overcome it.
This is clearly stated in Rev 10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
- Note “now salvation has come”
How ?
NOTE – 11And “they overcame him”
- by the blood of the Lamb
- by the word of their testimony
- they loved not their lives unto the death.
This is GRACE. It is salvation – it is a change in behavior / character that is done in Christ.
One reaps “exactly” what they sow – Exactly.
De’jure righteousness / grace doesn’t trump defacto righteousness.
God came to change us in the image of His Son so we can have fellowship with Him.
Btw, Paul mentioned ” about living without sin”
Rom 6
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 8
12So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
1 COR 15
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
If you can’t back up anything with scripture and in full context then ask Jesus….
David is a great example
” He testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’”
What did David do when he was confronted by Samuel for adultery, and murdering a innocent man.
He acknowgled it and repented and choose His punishment.
What happened afterwards ?
- God struck Israel for His sin
- The child died
- Absoloum ( his son) did what he did in front of everyone with Davids wives and concubines
- Absolum died
-David had to flee for his life
- A sword in his house remained in his house
That is called “consequences” what David did in private affected people around him.
Does God forgive – of course !!!! However, there are still consequences. To think otherwise is dangerous and unwise.
Recall, the parable of the sower… Only one brought a crop. The other two brought forth and died ( lack of perservernce and worldliness).
Another is John 15
2Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned
Note verse 6..
How can one be unborn ? It is really simple – it is called abortion.
If the scriptures bother me? I laughed for about 5 minutes on that one. It’s the one-sided spin on them that bothered me, works/judgment/salvation as a process and uncertainty until the end of your life or end of the age. It’s your perogative I guess, just like my perogative is to emphasize God’s love and mercy towards His kids and II Cor. 5:17 as my spiritual reality. But I’ll guarantee you this, that whatever you’re so sure about, of what heaven and the kingdom of God are, will one day get majorly adjusted, as will my perspective and interpretation.
I was trying to think of who you reminded me of with all that “scriptural knowledge and certainty” you possess (I’ll try and stop short of saying know-it-all). Anyway, I think I got it, Elihu from the book of Job. He had all the answers and thought he could set Job straight. And I guess because he was younger, God didn’t rebuke him like He did Job’s 3 friends. But uh, yeah, I just gotta say, he was pretty much a little know-it-all
In context…..
2 Cor 6:17 – 7:1Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,
18and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”
1Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.
If we do NOT come out and touch unclean things then God will not be our Father and we will not be His Sons and daughter
Note – Let us cleanse ourselves FROM EVERY DEFILEMENT OF BODY AND SPIRIT….
Ok Elihu, oh great knowledgable one. But when you were pushing context, I noticed you jumped from I John 2 to Rev. 10. Are you sure you didn’t leave something out?
Ad hominem replies – nice !!!! When someone attacks the person instead of the argument means your argument is ex facie.
1 john 2 = keep the commandments of God
Rev 10= salvation occurs by the blood of the Lamb, by the word of their testimony, they loved not their lives unto the death.
Btw, I asked for 5 scriptures that show heaven is the goal and 5 things we will do in heaven. Eternal life is mentioned 47 times in the NT and a whole mess of times in the OT. The goal is pretty is simple – it is the kingdom and first reserecction, and eternal life.
No this isn’t a calvin debate – salvation is gift and requires a proper response on our part. Remember the prodigal son ? Did he continue to party, fornicate, and sqander when he returned to the fathers house ? According to most – well maybe a little.
According to the scriptures – no.
Salvation is much like a piano – one can own it for a lifetime and play nothing but chopsticks. It is a discipline and requires practice- deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow Jesus also means “obeying His commandments” – if you love Him – it is easy to obey them.
The original gospel was a repentance and wrath from coming of the Gods Kingdom on the earth. Gods city and rule is coming to the earth to put a end of sin ! The bible means exactly what it says.
Jude
4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
15“Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,
to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
16These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.
God is coming with His “holy ones” will execute judgement on the “ungodly x 4 “/ those who pervert the grace of God.
Isn’t this just a rehash of the ol’ Calvin debate? ie, how much are we responsible for our own salvation?
And don’t forget Hobbes!
Yes, we cannot forget what those cammandments referred to in 1John are…there are only two.
I think before this is over with we’re gonna get the whole bible thrown at us, or at me I guess, since I’m the one egging it on by using words like HEAVEN.
If I could just keep from saying that word, heaven. But sometimes I like to… say heaven, because, not all the time, but once in awhile, it’s a comforting thought to know that God resides there II Chron. 30:27, His throne is there along with 24/7 worship unto Him Rev. 4:2, that my citizebship is there Phil 3:20, and that I’ve got a whole slug of family members up there Eph. 3:14,15.
Hmm, wouldn’t it be nice to be with Jesus in heaven. Heaven, where there’s no sin and struggles are over. Sometimes I confess, like the old testament saints and the writer of Hebrews, I long for a better country, a heavenly one Heb. 11:16. For here we have no enduring city, but we look for one to come Heb. 13:14.
But I’ve got to quit saying that word, HEAVEN. No more dying, no more crying, in perfect light, known as we’re known, once and for all together with the Lord, Redeemer of our souls, Hea… Wait, don’t say it Jay. Heav…no don’t do it…Must exercise self-control…Heave…But I’ve just got to let it out, because reprobabtes like me, who don’t believe we have to work life-long and hope to earn our salvation by the very end, what hope do we have other than to think about how Heave (whoops, almost said it) might hold our final rewards?
But I must resist…can’t give in…must remember Antipas’ strict scriptural warnings against hea….”It is a place in the spirit realm”, he said, “and not the issue in the bible.” Therefore I must not focus on heaven. Oh now darn it, I’ve went and said it again.
Sorry Antipas, I guess I’m just a hopeless apostate. But I bet you’ve got 30 or 40 more verses to help guide me?
The apostle Peter warned against taking Pauls writing out of context.
- The “ignorant” and “unstable” “twist to their own destruction” “as they do for their other scriptures”.
- “Take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people”
- “be diligent to be found without spot/blemish and at peace”
2 Peter 3
14Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
15And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
“The “ignorant” and “unstable” “twist to their own destruction” “as they do for their other scriptures”. ”
So the correct interpretation of the Bible is the one you have? And all others are “ignorant” and “unstable”?
I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if i”m wrong. I just find it somewhat absured when people talk about the “correct” interpretation of the Bible as though there is clearly only one option.
“Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters.
There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
What is Peter saying here ? ( ill give it my best shot)
-Some of Pauls writing are hard to understand
-They can “twisted” or “interpreted” to destruction instead of life
Christ warned when we prayed to the Father “led me not into temptation”.
Why ?
God answers us according to what is in our heart
Psalm 18
25 To the faithful you show yourself faithful;
to those with integrity you show integrity.
26 To the pure you show yourself pure,
but to the wicked you show yourself hostile.
Ezekiel 14:4
Amplified Bible (AMP)
4Therefore speak to them and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Every man of the house of Israel who takes his idols [of self-will and unsubmissiveness] into his heart and puts the stumbling block of his iniquity [idols of silver and gold] before his face, and yet comes to the prophet [to inquire of him], I the Lord will answer him, answer him according to the multitude of his idols,
God holds out His hand and satisfies every living thing – He a great King and Ruler of the Universe – He will not dwell with sin and allow it in His Kingdom. THe NT gospel is full of warnings by Christ and the apostles on this. Somehow error got introduced into thinking that if a person accepts Jesus they will escape tribulation and raptured into heaven or go to heaven when they die.
JUDEO CHRISTIANITY IS THE ONLY RELIGION THAT HAS “RESURRECTION” AND “KINGDOM ON EARTH” as the result of behavior ( read this 5 times ) if I am wrong – and name another does?
All other religions offer “life in the spiritual realm/heaven only” as a reward.
Death or sleep is entrance into the spiritual realm or heaven- one doesnt have to be resurrected.
However, one has to be “resurrected” to stand on the earth after death.
When Christ was resurrected the tomb was empty and He was “flesh and spirit”. A man of flesh and spirit sits on the highest throne. He wants us to be there “with Him” but to do that we have to be made like Him and to do that He has to dwell in us. To do that requires denying yourself, picking up your cross, and doing His will and not yours.
If this sounds hard – its not. To get everything (Him) you have to give everything. Our everything is NOTHING compared to His everything. Its a GOOD DEAL !!!!!!!!
Shalom,
Antipas Knight
Mike Singer
PS. Thanks for the post. God gave me wonderful insight as I wrote this. Praise to Jesus and the FATHER !!!!!
A criminal on a cross next to Christ made it to paradise (Lk 23:43). His only act was to recognize that Jesus had done nothing wrong, and ask to be remembered. Revelation 2:7 indicates he was an overcomer.
I’ll go with that…..
However, caveat emptor.
My man recognized Christ on the day of his visitation.
Allow me to ask… Who would expect the Son of God, creator of the universe, the thundering God of Sini, God in the Flesh, to be hanging on the cross and going through a criminals death with a known criminals ???? As CS Lewis said – He is the son of God or mentally “burnt toast”.
The pharisees and Pilot didn’t recognize Him……
The other thief – said if you are then get us out of here.
What that thief next to Christ was a incredible !!!!!
Interesting side note – the 1st & 2nd into to the lake of fire are the fearful and the unbelieving.
But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
Btw, Christ mentioned Paradise – not the Kingdom. He has the right to eat of the tree of life which is in the Kingdom. In a nutshell – He doesnt contain eternal life in himself but only through continual eating…
What are the rewards given to the other individuals who overcome of the seven that are mentioned??
if you notice – each one is closer to the Christ and His throne. This corresponds beautifully with the 7 articles of the tabernacle in the wilderness and the Solomans temple.
Imo, these are the two most important chapters in the bible and some of the most PROFOUND promises made- when one see’s 2 whole chapters dedicated to something – it is important.
Btw, “going to heaven ” isnt one of them and is insignificant when compared to and shows the transition from believer to disciple to friend ( ie the called, chosen , and faithful)
It’s difficult to have any meaningful discussion concerning “heaven” or the “kingdom of God”, without first coming to some understanding about the terms themselves.
I’ve seen variations of this dispute as long as I’ve been reading Christian internet forums, and before the internet, Fido net and Use net news groups. I’ve come to the conclusion that the dispute isn’t so much about sin, but rather differing views on what, when and where the “kingdom of God / heaven” really is.
From my youth, “heaven” was taught to me as the place where God lived and ruled, a place to which I would be admitted when I died IF I was a good Christian (or church member) my whole life, or, I made a good confession on my death bed and received forgiveness … in fact, when I was young, I worried about dying suddenly and what would happen to me IF I didn’t have a few moments to confess my sins before death – would I “go to hell”? Strange concept, but common to many believers I gather.
As Antipas (?) wrote, “heaven” is not a NT concept – though where it came from is unknown – likely from pagan influence (think Valhala) or as one article on Beliefnet suggests, a change to Christ’s teachings to explain away what Jesus promised was a SOON coming kingdom, that didn’t materialize in the lifetime of the early church and apostles. The “soon coming Kingdom” proved to be a kind of “PR” nightmare for the early church and undermined its credibility … so the concept of “heaven” was advanced as a believer’s future and eternal reward. Seems to me like I’ve read about “heaven” being a pagan influence from the likes of Michael Rood and Frank Viola, possibly on Tentmaker.org as well. The Beliefnet article is:
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2009/06/Where-Did-Heaven-Come-From.aspx
Just this last week I’ve been thinking about a few scriptures pertaining to the kingdom and the Father’s house – and I’ve noticed some things I hadn’t before and my thinking has been challenged by what I’ve noticed …
It started simply enough with the scripture “In my Father’s house, there are many rooms (mansions)” … for the longest time, I glossed over that scripture thinking that someday, I’d die, go to heaven, and find that the Lord had prepared a nice furnished room for me in the Hotel Yahweh … that’s all the thought I ever gave to that verse.
When I began looking at the verse with emphasis on “Father’s house” rather than the deluxe suite I would live in when I got to heaven someday, I began to see something new …
The Father’s house is simply the place where the Father abides/dwells/lives. Now I know from scripture that God does NOT abide in houses made by men (Acts 7:48 and Acts 17:24), rather, since Pentecost, God abides IN ME and IN EVERY BELIEVER (1 Corinthians 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 6:19). So IF I alter my concept of the Kingdom from “someday somewhere else” to the “here and now”, it suggests that as a ‘temple of the Holy Spirit’ and a place where the Spirit of God lives/dwells/abides, I AM A ROOM in my Father’s house. YOU ARE A ROOM in the Father’s house, etc. So there are indeed MANY ROOMS in the Father’s house – as many rooms as there are believers who are indwelt by the Spirit of God. And of course the Father is always up to remodeling those rooms (cleaning out, redecorating, etc.) and He’s always adding on to His house with new rooms. Holy EXTREME MAKEOVER HOME EDITION, Batman!
Could it be that the “soon coming Kingdom of God” as promised by Jesus, was fulfilled on Pentecost? But because the people were of a physical temple mindset, they missed it?
Such has given me a new perspective on the what, when and where of the Father’s house – suggesting that the “future view” of abiding with God in someplace far far away from here serves to deny the present truth and that is the Kingdom of God IS HERE, IS NOW IN EACH ONE OF US as we are added to God’s House/Kingdom and remodeled by the Holy Spirit who is in effect, our “interior decorator”.
Such is also mirrored in the words of Jesus who said when people were asking about the coming Kingdom of God “The Kingdom of God is WITHIN you” or (in you) …
The truth is KINGDOM HERE, KINGDOM NOW. And when we pray “thy kingdom come”, aren’t we in fact praying for the Kingdom that is within us to be filled with the Holy Spirit, with light and life?
If in fact God’s Kingdom is here now and within us as stated in scripture, then what could that scripture mean what says “neither fornicators, adulterers, et al, shall inherit the kingdom of God?”
Could that simply mean that as long as a person continues on in sin like that, God will not make His home in them? That fellowship with God in this life can not be realized? A body as a potential “room” in the house of God (kingdom of God) has to clear out the sin to make room for the abiding presence of God. There is no room for both.
About that “here and now” concept over the “future and far off” concept, one word in that scripture really caught my eye anew this morning – it’s the word “INHERIT” … IF the view of heaven is future and some place other than here, something awarded after death, then INHERIT is a really strange word to use … for INHERIT means something an heir receives IN THE HERE AND NOW from the deceased. It’s strange to say a person INHERITS something when they die … inheritance is for the living in this life. Such would also explain why Jesus told the apostles that it was for their benefit (inheritance) that he should go away – because He would send the Holy Spirit in His stead, which would indwell them – the Holy Spirit was the apostles (and our) inheritance from Jesus death.
So I want to ask – is it possible that the verse “neither adulterers, fornicators … shall inherit …” is just a way of saying “God will not make His house in those who continue on in sin” … typically however, we have (at least I have in the past) interpreted that scripture to mean “adulterers and fornicators” et al are going to go to hell … but I think it is more likely to mean “if you want to inherit the presence of the Lord in this life, you got to put sin away” … interesting too that the types of sins that cost a body the Kingdom of God are mostly sexual sins – sins of union/joining together with someone/something in an intimate way OTHER than God … the ‘fornicator / idolator, et al’ scripture seems to go to the 1st commandment – to have “no other God’s before me” … God wants to be first, He won’t abide where He is relegated to 2nd fiddle by a person’s idolatrous (promiscuous) behavior …
Let me say that I don’t think the concept of getting cleaned up is so offensive – that is after all the essential purpose of John’s baptism that preceded the coming of Jesus … and I believe what Antipas is saying concerns mixture – we can’t have it both ways – loving sin and loving God … we have to chose.
Choosing God or sin is the essential message of 1 Cor. 5 about the man caught with his father’s wife, etc. Such is the essence of the choice between God and money/mammon. It’s one or the other and God won’t accept 2nd place.
I don’t think sin will cost a believer his eternal life, but I do think a believer who entertains sin will forfeit communion with God … about that, didn’t David – the man said to be after God’s own heart – pray “take not your holy Spirit from me” … didn’t Jesus, after the sin of the world was laid upon Him, cry out from the cross “My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?”
Why should we think then that if we go on sinning willfully that the Father will just give us a wink and a nod and abide with us as if nothing is wrong?
I think the verse that says “adulterers and fornicators … will not inherit the Kingdom of God”, is intended for this life and present fellowship with God and not so much a pronouncement of judgment to hell in the afterlife. Hell is another great topic, BTW, but I’ve already gone on long enough.
Interesting!!!
I’m with you, ‘scrupe. One of my favorite verses is from John 17 where Jesus says, “that where I am, they may be also.”
It doesn’t much matter to me what He calls the place where He lives, as long as I get to be there, too.
Great post… Further thoughts if you permit.
There is a internal kingdom as well as external kingdom.
It is the doing of Gods will in the earth as it in heaven.
The coming of the internal coming precedes the coming of the external.
In order to be clothed / gain immortality ” the external”. The inside has to done first.
The outside only takes a moment ( 1 cor 15:52) .
The outside is a reflection of the inside and is dependent on ones behavior (Dan 12:2-3, 2 Cor 2:4-5, Rev 19:8, Heb 11:35 – that they might obtain a better resurrection) takes a lifetime and continued learning after this life
In regards to the the guy caught in sin his fathers wife is a horrible outcome ie “that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”
Not body, soul, and spirit ( WHOA !!!!) Just his spirit….
This is not the “norm” and allow me to say this is not desirable ( there is no inheritance much like Lot who lost his wife, goods, and his daughters ended up sleeping with him. Compare this outcome with Abraham.
“I dont think sin will cost “eternal life” ” I think it does for this reason- it is a opportunity and 30/60/100 due to the following law:
Reap what you sow (both physically, spiritually, emotionally, and quite often financially to you and others)
- If one sows to righteousness – eternal life
-If one sows to sin – death
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Deuteronomy 7:9-10
9Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,
10and repays to their face those who hate him, by destroying them. He will not be slack with one who hates him. He will repay him to his face.
Btw, the book of Hebrews is the strictest warning written to advanced Christians and not to “shrink” back or they will be destroyed.
II
Eternal life is in degrees ( Rev 2 & 3)
Out of his belly shall flow living water ( living water only flows from the throne of God – this is seen in Ezek & Rev. To get is to be “on the throne with Christ and is a “live giving spirit” as He is
III
Inheriting the Kingdom
1 Cor 6
9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Hell was never mentioned by the Apostle Paul and the apostles – I didnt mention it either.
Christ mentioned Hades and it was related to behavior and sin – so much for de’jure righteousness – only de’facto righteousness was a solution. Correct me if I am wrong.
One thing is for sure – God doesn’t like mixture – one will be gathered to others just like themself. This is seen in the OT and NT.
This is “perfect justice”.
Right now there is mixture – God will separate the righteous from the wicked.
Btw,There is outer darkness, cut in two, beaten with stripes, placed with hypocrites, wandering stars etc This would be a interesting and worthwhile topic…
Maybe we should look at what the Greek word #5046 teleios means. It means to be complete, of full age, perfect. Jesus is the only perfect sinless man. Are we trying to measure our level of perfection to Him? We will always come up short if we are. Another passage of scripture that this word is used is in Math 19:16-21:
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking? Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Jesus is talking to who we like to call “the rich young ruler” who asks Jesus what good thing must he must I do to inherit eternal life? Notice he asks what good thing “I” must do, under the Mosaic law it was about what I do, not about what Jesus did . Jesus response is to keep the commandments, then He goes on to list them out for him. He asks Jesus a self-centered question and Jesus gives him a selfless answer. He tells Jesus he has done all of these things, what is he still lacking? Or what is keeping me from being complete or coming to full maturity. Jesus response here is what seals the deal, He says “If you wish to be complete, go sell all of your possessions and give to the poor” There is a big difference in being incomplete (lacking something)and being imperfect (not measuring up to the standard).
We can’t overlook that the rich young ruler was under the Mosiac Covenant which isn’t the New Covenant thru Christ’s blood. Jesus tells him as He does others who are under the same covenant to do what is required of them under the current covenant they were under.
Hebrews 9:16-17 tells us when the New Covenant becomes valid:
Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
This brings light to what Romans 7 says:
Romans 7:1-4 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
So the death of Christ has released us from the law, so we can be joined to Christ. It’s not a compounding of the covenants on top of each other from Abraham to Noah to Moses to Christ, but it’s a New Covenant in Christ. That’s why the Gentile converts don’t have to be under the Mosaic Covenant as well as the New covenant. Our initial covenant upon conversion is in Christ alone. This is why Paul gets beat, stoned, and persecuted in every city he preached in. The Jews expected the Gentiles to have to do what they did. But this is the great mystery of the Gospel which Paul talks about. Salvation to the gentiles based on Grace not the law. Based on What Christ did, not on performance.
1 John 3:9 says:
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
When the seed (Greek #6490 sperma) abides in someone, when they are impregnated with the seed of God it will bring life, and grow. When a woman becomes pregnant, and that life that’s inside of her starts to grow, she starts seeing change. Her belly gets bigger, she feels the baby kick, there is change from when she wasn’t pregnant. There is fruit to her professing she is pregnant. If a woman says she is pregnant and doesn’t bear the fruit that naturally happens during pregnancy, would you still say she’s pregnant?
This is the same concept of professing to be a disciple of Christ and bearing the fruit of conversion in our own personal lives. Either we are impregnated with the seed of God, growing in the Lord, and bearing fruit. Or maybe we were never impregnated in the first place. When God plants a seed it will grow. But like the parable says there are four different places the seeds fell, and only one brought forth fruit. One came to maturity. Most important tho is that Jesus is the one who cuts off the branch that’s not bearing fruit, not us.
The thing to keep in mind is that each person is different, and there is no cookie cutter Christianity or conversion, it’s when we think others have to come to God the way we did, that we have lost focus on those who are lost and need a Savior, and have become inward focused.
Amen and amen Scrup. I especially like your take on the rooms being us in the Father’s house. That is right on!
I think Antipas pretty much just assumed the worst about my believing in the rapture. I didn’t spend 8 yrs. at Bible Temple and follow guys like Rick Joyner for years and years without being well taught in the importance of the Kingdom of God right now within us versus a teaching that puts all the emphasis on only when Jesus comes.
And I guess while I’m at it… a point of clarification. Sanctification, trials,the need for obedience and cleansing, the process of becoming more and more like Jesus in this life, all things I agree with. You’re preaching to the choir here, Antipas. Most of us have lived that out. Shoot, I preached on those subjects many times, as did others here.
What I can’t go along with you on is the way you’re making it sound like the process determines justification or right standing with God. That puts more emphasis on robot-like obedience rather than relationship, and it won’t work.
One thing I might share with you (Antipas), that a wise minister once shared with me: “If you know 100 things about something, you can speak with power on one or two of them.” In other words, validating your points with scripture could be more effective by actually learning to use less scripture rather than more. Something is lost in the amount of scripture.
And oh yeah I can have my times of being a know-it-all too. Just ask my wife.
Really good thoughts Monte.
Monte,
In terms of “the seed” and pregnancy.
Pregnancy is a process that involves inception, gestation, and birth…
A lot can go wrong along the way ( ie like abortion ). Only 1 type of ground brought forth fruit ( fruit of the Spirit as mentioned in Col).
Check out Galatians 4:19
19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Btw, these were Spirit filled Christians……
Rev 12 ( I suggest reading the whole thing)
Revelation of John 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Here is another one – one has to abide in Christ
John 15
2Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Vs 6 is a whopper…
- “If anyone does not abide in me”
- he is thrown away like a branch and withers;
” and the branches are gathered”
” thrown into the fire, and burned.”
Sounds like Matt 13:41
Matthew 13:41
41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
NOTICE THEY ARE REMOVED FROM THE KINGDOM and WHY…
Fathers house / heaven / Christ is perfect….. Lets take a “scriptural look.
Christ was “perfect”- NOPE !!!!! Check it out !!!! Sinless yes – perfect – no…..
Christ was ” perfected” through His sufferings.
Heb 5:8
Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
9And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him
FATHERS House -
John 14
2In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
4And you know the way to where I am going.”
Btw, He went to the cross.
15“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
17even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
18“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
This corresponds with Rev 3:20
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
2 Peter 1:19 &
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Revelation of John 2:28
28And I will give him the morning star.
Galatians 4:19
19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Back to John 14:21
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
NOTICE THE FOLLOWING
2Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
These are ALL conditional all – Preceded by “IF & “keeping the commandments of Christ”.
THE DWELLING PLACE OF THE FATHER
- Chris !! Christ is the Fathers house.
The very first sermon preached by Stephen (martyred) was quoting IS 66 and if you permit – read it very closely…
Isaiah 66
1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
MAN IS MEANT TO BE THE DWELLING PLACE OF GOD !!!! Forgive me for ranting this over and and over again !!!!!!! ITS NOT ABOUT YOU !!!!!!
Paul got this – it is the mystery of the gospel
Colossians 1:26-27
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
CHRIST IN YOU !!!!!!!!!!!! NOT WITH YOU BUT IN YOU !!!!!
MAN IS THE TEMPLE OF GOD. CHRIST IS THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE.
1 Peter 2:5
5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
If a professor of Christ thinks they can go and commit adultery and expect Christ ( is the living will of the Father – HE IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD – HE DID GODS WILL ON THE EARTH) to dwell in that – think again – SIn is not permitted in the Kingdom as mentioned throughout the NT.
GODS Kingdom is a living breathing city – get it ? Read the scriptures and check it out. It not about a home for you-that is so far off secular and selfish and anti-scriptural it isnt funny.
I think God’s dwelling must be multi-dimensional. After all, it’s hard to imagine a person, or even a large bunch of persons being described as the New Jerusalem is in Rev. 21.
Nice…. Great way to “show some class”. I never used a ad hominem – never…. Nor did I assume nor did I put words in your mouth. In fact – quite the opposite.
Btw, that is exactly what they said about Christ & John & Paul
Paul
Acts 26:24
And as he was saying these things in his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are out of your mind; your great learning is driving you out of your mind.”
Christ
John 10:20
Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?”
John
Luke 7:33
For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’
Allow me ask a question from a scripture you quoted and the answer should be pretty easy given your extensive background that you stated.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
What does it mean to be “dead in Christ”?
Interesting note that Paul and others regarded physical death as “sleep” so this is something completely different.
Btw, here are some scriptures on “heaven”
Before,
this is in reply to jayjacque not anna.
sorry abou the error.
Anna,
God creates living things and the ability of “multiple presence” is possible in the third & fourth dimension.
This is seen in the scriptures:
And Elijah said, “As the LORD of hosts lives, before whom I stand, I will surely show myself to him today.” 1 Kings
For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. Col 3 ( Note “now hidden”. You are here and your spirit life is alive and with Christ)
Ephesians 2:6
6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Colossians 3:1
1If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God
Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Rev 3:12The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. ( this is my take on the from this forward is the ability of multiple presence like Christ – these are the pillars in the temple that separate the holy place to the holy of holies.
Hope that helps.
“There is no room for both.” There is room for both – but it is Christ first. Once self will is replaced with “not my will but thine be done ” we then are allowed back on the throne with Christ ( Rev 3) and this is seen with the story of Joesph.
Revelation of John 3:20
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
What is suped????
John 6
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
So allow me ask – what is the result of eating the body and blood of Christ ????
Is it life or is it heaven ?? Or is it life in heaven ????
It is relationship or even better a intense love affair that where Christ is – one will be with Him…… Rotherham refers to this as the “flash of Yah”. He loves His bride so much and expresses it by giving His Body and Blood ( this is the mystery of godliness imo).
This is what transforms us and gives us life
or those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (Romans 8:29—NIV)
The above verse is speaking of the believers in Christ. God has known us from the beginning of the world. God has predestined us for something.
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. (II Corinthians 3:18—NIV)
Again – this is a process….
I was gonna try and be nice, but my first impressions were right. Dude, you’re totally whack!
See above for my reply..
Btw, here are a couple that I intentionally left out but after praying about….
Matthew 5:22
22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Matthew 7:16-20
16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Gal 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
I was thinking about this since the heading of this blog is “What is Required for a Christian to get into Heaven?”
Allow me to ask the screaming obvious question ????????
Can anyone come up with a “SINGLE” verse as “heaven” in the OT / NT being the goal or reward ?
This thing about (or against) heaven is pretty important to you, huh? Well, maybe someone has a few verses on it, but if not I’m sure within a couple more posts you’re gonna have the whole bible laid out for us!
This is a polite invitation regarding the title of the blog.
If you can – answer the question.
“SINGLE” verse as “heaven” in the OT / NT being the goal or reward ?
Shalom
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Are there any more ?????
Allow me ask what is the “great reward in” heaven” ????
Matt 6
19“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal,
20but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.
21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Moving along this line since Christ mentioned this other times – what are “the treasures” ?
The word “heaven” appears in the KJV some 500+ times. Of course, I only use the AKJV / 1611.
*God’s voice is heard from heaven.
*Angels are seen and heard from heaven.
*Signs from God are seen in the heaven(s).
*One of the 10 commandments says not to make any likeness of anything seen in the heaven/heavens.
*God sent manna from heaven.
*Jesus 2nd coming is seen as descending from heaven with a great cloud of witnesses in heaven.
So it is a natural conclusion of people who are bound to the earth that the promise of being with God eventually, is synonomous with being in heaven, where God is heard from, his angels, etc.
It is written, after all, “Heaven is my throne, earth is my footstool …”
I’m willing to accept “get into heaven” as no more or less than a kind of slang way of saying a person hopes to go be with God, where God is.
…………
So a few questions for you, Antipas.
When Jesus asked His disciples “Who do people say that I am”, many answers were given, but none were right.
Did you notice that despite wrong answers, Jesus did not rebuke or chastise them?
He simply let them answer. And when Jesus asked “who do YOU say that I am” and Peter answered, Jesus expressed JOY that His Father, who is in heaven, had revealed it to him.
What catches my eye, in particular, is Jesus said “Flesh and blood has not revealed it to you” …
To that end, 1 Corinthians 2:12-14 speaks of it being the Spirit who reveals spiritual things. 1 John 2:27 is similar “you do not need a man to teach you, for you have the Holy Spirit to teach you and lead you into all truth” …
So I find myself wondering about you, and the many times you have proclaimed that learning and salvation “is a process”, which scripture clearly identifies is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit.
Why are you attempting to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit as the “revealer”?
Don’t you beleive in the very “process” you espouse?
Your out of context and doing a ad-hominem.
In fact I would sincerely ask Jesus about this one and suppressing the truth and using the Holy Spirit ( ie blasphemy).
I asked a valid question in light of this thread which was blatantly obvious but I intentionally let it go…
Go back and read the initial statement ( please permit me to connect the dots of what I am sure is the unintentional “lost in translation”).
“A Christian that continues in known sin is not a Christian and will not inherit eternal life and the Kingdom of God” ie Gal 5:19-21
vs.
“What is Required for a Christian to get into Heaven?”
These are two completely different things – if you dont believe me as ask a non Christian or a young child. Eternal life / Kingdom of God vs. Heaven are vastly different. I would sincerely like to believe you have a the spiritual and intellectual honesty to see the vast difference.
So to answer your question “Why are you attempting to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit as the “revealer”? ”
Hardly so, but I think you might be attempting to undermine the truth to write what you did and including the Holy Spirit ( take this as a kind warning since I really prayed about this – your on thin ice, unscriptural and blatantly dishonest).
Previously stated – “The word “heaven” appears in the KJV some 500+ times” and you cant find a “SINGLE” verse as “heaven” in the OT / NT being the goal or reward ?
Wow….. why is that ????
Allow to state the obvious- because heaven is not the goal.
If heaven isn’t the goal – then what is the goal ?
In regards to a process – there are believers, disciples, and friends ( ie called, chosen, and faithful).
-A real disciple is a Christian (deny, pu cross, follow Jesus)
-Not all Christians are disciples.
-A faithful disciple become a friend (Keeps commandments)
John 15: 13Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends.
14You are my friends if you do what I command you.
15No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Are you mature or a baby ?
Heb 6
11About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil
Formation of Christ
Galatians 4:19 ( Spirit filled Christians)
19my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
There are more and they tie in with the 7 Jewish Feasts, Rev, 2&3, and the Seven Articles in the Ark of Congregation ( If a person has a difficult time with the basic parables of the Kingdom – then they will not understand anything these).
“Hardly so, but I think you might be attempting to undermine the truth to write what you did and including the Holy Spirit ( take this as a kind warning since I really prayed about this – your on thin ice, unscriptural and blatantly dishonest).”
Well, you are certainly full of yourself and presumptuous.
You show up here without introduction and presume to lecture, teach, correct people here whom you don’t even know?
Boasting in your screen name – that of a knight who fights to the last man?
Clearly you have some fleshly need to argue and fight with the brethren – to best everyone – and have no qualms about taking up swords against the brethren?
And you say I’m on thin ice … good grief.
My discernment of you? I’ve seen your kind dozens of times on forums … just another bibliolator here to flail away in the flesh, exhibiting not a single one of the fruits of the spirit you recently enumerated.
You have more love for that dog than you’ve demonstrated for the brethren here.
Have you even been baptised with the Holy Spirit? You sure don’t act like it.
see below
Fyi,
Why dont you go back and take a look a the opening statement of the blog…
Allow me to say this blog was started over something from another blog??? Check it out !!
It was in regards to this statement:
A Christian that continues in known sin is not a Christian and will not inherit eternal life and the Kingdom of God
Galatians 5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Interesting – “I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, ” (ie How many times do I have to tell you. DONT YOU GET IT????)
This was the reply”
If the scriptures bother me? I laughed for about 5 minutes on that one. It’s the one-sided spin on them that bothered me, works/judgment/salvation as a process and uncertainty until the end of your life or end of the age.”
Okay…..
I havent attacked but I did answer well !!!! God is very very faithful in giving answers..
In review of previous posts – you made fun of my screen name among other things. My question is who is attacking who ? Check it out !!
Boasting in my screen name…. I dont think so.. I answered a question when it was asked…
If anyone is taking up the sword against the brethren – take a really hard look in the mirror.
- You answered a simple question obviously WAY out of context.
Then…..
“- I’m not interested in answering questions.”
You know the truth but wont come around to it….because no where in the bible does it say that heaven is the goal. And that is a serious serious error.
Anyone who does engineering or system design or anything else knows that the goal is the utmost importance – reverse engineering with a series of checks as well as consequences.
Going back:
“- I’m not interested in answering questions.”
“Let me be frankly honest with you. Please hear me.”
What you just said – I have no interest in your question – it is no value. What I am going to say takes precedents.
Okay…..
In review – here is another…
“So to answer your question “Why are you attempting to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit as the “revealer”? ”
What I find interesting – is you wont answer any questions and have intentionally mishandled the scriptures…Yes you are on thin ice… Very very very thin ice… Your replies, intentionally mishandling the scriptures, attacks, and mocks speak for themselves. Intentionally ignoring the the truth and misrepresenting the Holy Spirit is scripturally blasphemy – that is not my judgement – but a valid observation – the rest is between you and Jesus.
If one is going to oppose a fellow brother – dont use a ad hominem – attack the issue as Paul did.
Gal 2
11But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.
13And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.
14But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
In review of the Holy Spirit – I know Jesus and I Him ( the Spirit of Truth) and I want to know them even more.
Is 4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.
Malachi 3:2
2But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap.
Isaiah 33:14
14The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: “Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?”
Where did God Take Enoch?
Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
UP gk#3346
1) to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other)
a) to transfer
b) to change
c) to transfer one’s self or suffer one’s self to be transferred
1) to go or pass over
2) to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another
Where did God take Elijah?
2Ki 2:11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
Shamayim #8064
1) heaven, heavens, sky
a) visible heavens, sky
1) as abode of the stars
2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
b) Heaven (as the abode of God)
Psalms 73:24-26 With Your counsel You will guide me, And afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but You? And besides You, I desire nothing on earth. My flesh and my heart may fail, But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
The word for heaven is used for three discriptions:
1)The Sky within the earth’s atmosphere
2)What we would call outerspace or outside the earths atmosphere
3) The place where God dwells.
Each time the word Heaven is used it has to be applied to the context of the passage it’s used in.
2 Cor 2:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Paul calls it the 3rd heaven & paradise. There is a dwelling place of God outside of earth which is called heaven. This is not where man spends eternity. It is only temporary until The Kingdom of God is established on earth. Man was created for earth, not heaven. God is going to restore earth to its original purity before the fall of Adam, which is what man was created for originally.
Rev 21:1-3 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them.
Rev 22:3-5 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
The passage used for the rapture or catching up in 1 Thess. 4:16-18 is not an image of Jesus taking believers up to heaven. It is an image of ushering in a King. The people of Thessalonica would of known exactly what Paul was writing because in their day when anyone of royalty would be coming to their city. They would not wait for them to get to the city before they ushered them in, but they would meet the Royalty long before they got to the city. They would go out of the city miles before the King got there to greet Him, and usher him in.
You see this same scene in the triumphal entry in Matthew 21:6-9
Matthew 21:6-9 The disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them, and brought the donkey and the colt, and laid their coats on them; and He sat on the coats. Most of the crowd spread their coats in the road, and others were cutting branches from the trees and spreading them in the road.
The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David; BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; Hosanna in the highest!”
It is at the second coming that Jesus is coming to establish His Kingdom on earth, not coming half way, then returning to Heaven for 7 years, then coming again. This concept of the pre-trib rapture is gross error.
Antipas,
As for the concept of pregnancy reaching it’s maturity the scripture I stand on is:
Phl 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Monte,
You bring up a very good point. Lets explore this a bit. Allow me to suggest – the other differences between heaven vs. the earth.
It is pretty simple – Heaven is Gods throne and the earth is His footstool ( simply put a “court room” – there are plenty of scriptures to support this, the time/space continuum ( 3rd dimension vs. 4th dimension, and visibility ( ie we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses )
Moses, Enoch & Elijah was translated. There are scriptures that suggest, Noah, Job, and Daniel are in the presenece. However, Samuel came up ( it looks like from the earth) when the witch summoned him for Saul ( 1 Samuel 28)
What is common thread that is seen in the OT “gathered to your people” Feel free to do a search to confirm this.
On the Mount of transfiguration – Moses & Elijah were there in glory unlike Samuel – Check it out !!!
The story of God and man starts off in a unwalled paradise with 2 trees ON THE EARTH and since Adam sinned he didnt get to eat from the tree of life.
The story of God and man ends in a walled paradise with trees in paradise and no one who sins is allowed to eat from the same tree of life.
The $64 million dollar question is did God Laws change ?
The answer is never….God doesn’t change.
What He did was send His Son to become a man and became a new creation ( firstborn) and give man the opportunity to become a new creation and become a brother of Christ. In others words – God became man (de facto) so man could become God (de facto).
Btw, your right on the coming of Christ to the earth. Well stated.
If you permit and you would like to hear it- I’ll go over the one prior to that if you would permit via conversation and scriptures ( I hate typing).
Shalom,
Mike
Samuel would have been in what is refered to as Abraham’s bosom, like we see in the parable of Lazarus & the rich man (Luke 22). Basically the holding place for the seed of Abraham prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It’s interesting tho that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses would be translated to where God dwells instead of going to Abraham’s bosom.
God’s laws are contingent on His covenants, and change with the covenants. His character and who He is never changes. His moral law is relevant to all covenants, and actually the bar was raised in the NT cuz now it’s not only actions but heart intentions. Look at the Noahide covenant in Genesis 9:3, God tells Noah he can eat any moving thing. Then in the Mosaic Covenant there are definate limitations on what you can and can not eat. Then we see under the new covenant we can eat anything if it’s received with thanksgiving (1Tim 4:3-4) unless someone tells you they sacrificed it to an idol or causes your brother to stumble.
1 Tim 4:1-3 actually says that one of the signs of departing from the faith, giving into deceiving spirits, and doctrines of demons in the last days is commanding people to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving.
Where do you get that there were only 2 trees on the earth? Genesis 1:11 says God created fruit trees that bear fruit of their kind, with the seed in them. Then in v 29 God says Adam can eat of every tree who’s fruit yields its seed.
Genesis 2:16-17 God said Adam could eat from any tree except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which must have been seedless. Notice God didn’t restrict Adam from eating of the tree of life which must have not been seedless. This is why once Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit, God made them leave the Garden of Eden and had an angel guard the tree of life. God was keeping them from from eating it cuz they would forever live in their sin. Gen 3:22-24
Lets get together and talk about the other one you mentioned.
My take is different on Samuel for a couple of reasons:
1. His appearance was quite different (appearance and clothes) compared to Moses and Elija on the Mount. And “he was brought up” vs taken up as Elisha and Moses (chauffer service that Elisha got since it looks like He was taken up as was Moses). Samuel was buried.
Also, it says in 1 Peter 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,that Christ descended.
In review of Samuel life – he had a great start but a bad finish.
2. Jesus said in Mark ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.He is not God of the dead, but of the living.
To “live” is to be in the presence of God or better to the have God live in you ( ie eternal life !!!)
It would appear Samuel didnt have this.
Typo on my part on the two trees ( thanks for pointing that out ) eat from all the trees except for 2 (tree of life & good / evil)
Lets get together – this week will be tough. It looks like I have to fly to Spokane this Fri and Sat.
Please keep it prayer for Gods will to be done and open the right door – I would greatly appreciate it.
I’ll be more than happy to answer your questions but you still didnt answer mine:
“SINGLE” verse as “heaven” in the OT / NT being the goal or reward ?
What you showed was that heaven is safe place to guard “lay treasure” but it isn’t the goal or the reward.
If you want a hint finish the rest of Is 66 that you quoted…
I’m not interested in answering questions.
Let me be frankly honest with you. Please hear me.
I’ve been through the process and continue to go through the process. Watching the Lord challenge everything I held to be truth when I was part of man’s institutional church system, go up in flames as the Lord questioned and challenged me on what I held to be truth.
He baptised me with the Holy Spirit, with the gift of tongues, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, prophesy, et al, whereupon I have heard His voice and was sickened at the error I was in, not only me, but seemingly everyone.
Going through that process, it was like wrestling with Him, or perhaps it was wrestling with myself, where one of the Lord’s truths after another dislodged and rooted out something false. And when that process was new to me, I often took the truths that were new to me, and visited any number of Christian forums to share it – certainly I knew of the unstoppable compulsion to shout the truth I had come to see from the rooftops – even if it were only an internet forum or blog.
But the process taught me, like you, that it is indeed a process – that the path that leads to life, is narrow – which by very definition, must be traveled single-file. It is the path that leads to destruction that is wide and is traveled arm-in-arm with other like-minded but ignorant believers … the narrow path, which leads to life and truth, because it must be traveled single-file, means that everyone who travels it has a unique view point. To the person ahead of me on the path, I am immature – my current viewpoint is their yesterday’s news. To the person behind me on the path, I am a heretic because they haven’t yet seen what I see.
To that end, I have learned mostly to keep my mouth shut about what I see, except when asked or when the conversation veers in the direction of the revelation(s) the Lord is currently showing me. I have come to see and have an understanding about that scripture which says “always be prepared to give an account for that hope that is within you, WHEN YOU ARE ASKED” … that describes a process as well – people see me live, people hopefully see something different about me – hopefully see light and life (of Christ) emanating from with in me, and then ask me what it is that makes me different – what makes me hope. Only then have thy opened the door to hear my testimony. To offer it without their asking, is to do so unsolicited and invariably ends badly. So I have learned, and continue to learn, a more quiet and calm approach to sharing my faith, than simply trumpeting what I’ve learned from the rooftops.
One of the hardest lessons to learn, Antipas, probably was learned at this very blog.
The majority of people who are here, have been wounded by the MFI (Minister’s Fellowship International) brand of church and in particular by the overlords who run them. Those overlords spewed scripture by the yard with the intent (agenda) of making them proselytes and laborers in the vision for “ministry” held by the overlord. Naturally, that includes an extreme emphasis on giving money and often time. One of the hammers used by MFI and their overlords, is guilt, which sadly is sewn through the copious use of scripture – yards and yards of scripture – stringed together in ways never intended – but in such a way as to suggest legitimacy of the overlord’s vision and to underscore the authority and supremacy of the overlord and his/her ministry.
So people make their escape from that kind of abusive church system and find their way here where there are others like them, to talk about what’s happened to them, receive affirmation and encouragement, and begin healing.
My concern Antipas, is that your coming here to demand answers to your questions, while reeling off yards of scriptures, stringed together to support your point, is virtually IDENTICAL to the behavior of the overlords and abusive churches they ran from.
Your actions here are effectively turning their ‘safe place’ into a place reminiscent of what they ran from in the first place.
Yet I understand the need when going through “the process” to test your new found truths out and where you are absolutely certain they came from the Lord, to fight for that truth with zeal.
This is a pattern I’ve witnessed countless times on forums and blogs and the result is always the same. It is the Holy Spirit who does the teaching, the revealing, the healing and there’s no hastening that process, because it is INDIVIDUAL. Remember the narrow-path and pilgrims moving along it single file?
Without a doubt, I have done the same thing here in the past, with the truth I’ve been shown, and by my own zeal, and I have witnessed time and again, when that happens, the discussion and participation around the blog tapers off – for sword against sword is really an exercise of proud flesh, not the way of the Spirit among the camp of the wounded.
My advice to you is, to be real, personable, tell your story, listen to the story of others and encourage. But leave the sermons and Bible lessons out of it. Just be a brother who loves the brethren.
Jack
Frank,
Please allow me to be honest with you. You are being very pesumptious. As a Jewish Christian – these are very very old fires that are well over 25 years old
- grace as a substitute for moral behavior
- ticket to heaven vs eternal resurrected life
- accept Jesus in your heart salvation vs. discipleship
- Rapture vs. Coming of Christ
- First resurrection
- Clothed with ones behavior
- Overcoming
- Kingdom of God / repentance / Wrath
As mentioned these are very very old fires that I learned over 25 years ago ( yes I intentionally stated this again as to make a point). It may be new to you but not to me.
I have discussed this with pastors, scholars, theologians over the decades. Btw, I am just a regular guy who loves Jesus and has a gift – yes it is “a gift”.
Over 25 years this is nothing new. I have learned to keep my sword in my sheath despite the mockery. When a person has to result to insults and personal attacks – it is a time to “pray forgive them they know not what they do”. God will give me scriptures and insight to say – and I have learned it is better to use His words rather than my own.
As you mentioned you wont answer my questions and then write a warm fuzzy plee. Allow me to say – this is par for the course.
The life of the real disciple is one of warfare. The OT enemies were physical, the NT enemies are physical.
Buckle up and quit complaining like a sissie – I mean it.
Endure hardship as a good solider of Christ – there are a whole bunch of other verses along this line. Take a hard look the word “disciple”. Does the word “discipline” come to mind ? Very very few American Christians know about the word “disciple” let alone “discipline”. No pain = no gain. Christ said His yoke was easy and His burden was light and He promised us His joy and His peace. The way of the transgressor is hard – consequnences are real and fornication leads to sexual disease, pregnancy, and life long heartache. There is a reason why intercourse is blessed in the boundries of marriage and cursed outside. It leads to bad consequences as well as separation from God / spiritual death – Do you get this man ???? There are a incredible amount of secular studies that show the severe consequences of out of wedlock sex. Science ALWAYS backs up God – ALWAYS !!! If it doesnt then it is a false study. I have spent well over a decade and educated in this to seen this proven over and over. God was right all along.
Complaining doesnt get one anywhere. In fact, GOD HATES IT. Why did only 2 out of millions make into the promise land ? COMPLAINING AND WHINING !!!
Take a hard look at Heb 3 & 4. Btw, only Joshua and Caleb made it in of the original generation.
Gods judgement is coming to America because of the behavior of people called by His name. Take a stand for righteousness and truth and turn from the world. That is is the only chance you have for yourself and your household and those who hear you.
I am speaking from personal experience on the following. I have lost career jobs & goods for telling the truth and for doing the right thing. God has always kept me and provided for me and blessed me and rewarded me for it. Time after time I have been rewarded ( 2x-3x’s my previous salary etc. and a better postion). I am not afraid of telling the truth and nether should any real disciple of Christ. I am not interested in pleasing man but interested in obedience to Christ, righteousness, and holiness.
Joshua 1:8This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.
This is true – I have found it to be so. It has changed my life.
Btw, here are a couple of nuggets to the peeps who are coming out of bad churches/pastors. Test and try the pastors – find out if they are real men of God. A real man of God will commend you for your dilligence.
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Revelation of John 2:2
2…and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.
6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
typo…
the OT enemies are physical, the NT enemies are spiritual.
Thank you Jack. I take that to heart also.
Antipas
I get really confused reading your posts. When I track your scripture referrences back to CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT I can’t follow your logic on everything. I read through as many of your scripture posts as possible to follow context and I am not going to repost a bunch of scripture references, you can read them on your own.
I looked as close at Kingdom as I could, to stay off the rabbit trail. It’s intersting that you will find the numerous references to this in the Gospels as related to two core themes. One is the total sphere or realm in which God is in rule over, which includes both heaven and earth. I would challenge you to re-read the story of Creation and uderstand what God created and be curious why He doesn’t tell us about the heavens and the earth, and the Kingdom….because whatever He rules over is the Kingdom and it had already been created by the 7th day. The second you will find (imo) is that Kingdom is also associated with the presence of Christ and if we don’t deny His existence, we inherit the Kingdom. I also wonder how the Kingdom can be at hand, if it’s something yet to be. In context of some of the scriptures you have posted it talks of the resting place and throne of God, and the Kingdom being the realm of Heaven and Earth, His throne rests in Heaven. Moreover, your scripture references in Revelations talks of receiving the Kindgom or being in the Kingdom as fellowship with Christ (sup). Isn’t fellowship with Christ a now thing, and not a thing to come?
I have many friends that are born Jewish and have been tormented by their inability to live in the grace of Christ without the command(s) of the Torah as their compass. Your notion of scripture and Christ (which you have all right to) is often percieved as holiness absent freedom, that Christ so freely offered us through a redemptive action to take our place on the cross. If He became perfect upon dying on the cross, and He came to take my place, so long as I have faith in Him (and faith is action, so I need to live my life apart from sin, through His grace) then as the scripture says, does that perfection not rest upon us now? Not perfection in my flesh, which Romans clearly indicates can never happen, but perfection in the spirit of Christ which I have inherited, the Kingdom of God which I have inherited, so long as I overcome (remain steadfast in my faith) to the end, I will be spotless by His actions, not my own, to recieve a place in Heaven, which is the spiritual realm, not the earth realm of the Kingdom realm that God rulers over? Your understanding of the Gospel reminds me of the fear I had in abusive chruches where it seemed like you could never enter into communion with God, because you know you will never achieve the nature you describe as required. Overcome in the bible is not a physical or metaphorical term in our sense of self victory over something. Overcome is to remain steadfast in something we cannot see, but something we can hope for…and that it only offered by the grace of Christ, through our faith in Christ.
I am thankful for a God who sent His son, to make a way for me, becuase I cannot do anything, nor do I deserve anything that has to do with God and His Son. I am a broken, selfish, sinful vessel and only through His grace can I truly overcome. I cannot imagine a life where believing the law and commands of Christ are attainable by me….I would live in bondage to myself and never overcome, as that life would not require any faith and be absent of all hope.
Shalom
4HIM – Christ presented and spoke in parables to hide the meaning. It is quite intentional. Pray and ask for insight.
In regards to what you wrote – I am pretty sure what I put will be in complete contradiction despite the quoting of the scripture and yours of church tradition ( please excuse me on this – I am dont mean to be arrogant but I dont want to waste my time or yours on this – Matthew 7:6 Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you).
Peace,
Antipas Knight / Mike Singer
Fyi,
Why dont you go back and take a look a the opening statement of the blog…
Allow me to say this blog was started over something from another blog??? Check it out !!
It was in regards to this statement:
A Christian that continues in known sin is not a Christian and will not inherit eternal life and the Kingdom of God
Galatians 5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Interesting – “I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, ” (ie How many times do I have to tell you. DONT YOU GET IT????)
This was the reply”
If the scriptures bother me? I laughed for about 5 minutes on that one. It’s the one-sided spin on them that bothered me, works/judgment/salvation as a process and uncertainty until the end of your life or end of the age.”
Okay…..
I havent attacked but I did answer well
!!!! God is very very faithful in giving answers..
In review of previous posts – you made fun of my screen name among other things. My question is who is attacking who ? Check it out !!
Boasting in my screen name…. I dont think so.. I answered a question when it was asked…
If anyone is taking up the sword against the brethren – take a really hard look in the mirror.
- You answered a simple question obviously WAY out of context.
Then…..
“- I’m not interested in answering questions.”
You know the truth but wont come around to it….because no where in the bible does it say that heaven is the goal. And that is a serious serious error.
Anyone who does engineering or system design or anything else knows that the goal is the utmost importance – reverse engineering with a series of checks as well as consequences.
Going back:
“- I’m not interested in answering questions.”
“Let me be frankly honest with you. Please hear me.”
What you just said – I have no interest in your question – it is no value. What I am going to say takes precedents.
Okay…..
In review – here is another…
“So to answer your question “Why are you attempting to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit as the “revealer”? ”
What I find interesting – is you wont answer any questions and have intentionally mishandled the scriptures…Yes you are on thin ice… Very very very thin ice… Your replies, intentionally mishandling the scriptures, attacks, and mocks speak for themselves. Intentionally ignoring the the truth and misrepresenting the Holy Spirit is scripturally blasphemy – that is not my judgement – but a valid observation – the rest is between you and Jesus.
If one is going to oppose a fellow brother – dont use a ad hominem – attack the issue as Paul did.
Gal 2
11But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.
13And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.
14But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
In review of the Holy Spirit – I know Jesus and I Him ( the Spirit of Truth) and I want to know them even more.
Is 4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.
Malachi 3:2
2But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap.
Isaiah 33:14
14The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: “Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?”
Seriously, Antipas, you’re delusional. And my guess is I’m not the first person who has told you that.
Different scenario maybe, but reminds me of a brother a long time ago I knew at Bible Temple, who was so convinced he was called to do all these great works and set everyone straight (even had some presbytery prophecies he thought validated that). When people didn’t receive him or his message because of how full-of-himself he came across, he was sure he was being persecuted. So he became even kookier the next 3 or 4 years, preaching at people, using the Word as a weapon instead of learning how to love and effectively minister to the deepest needs. When people wouldn’t listen or do what he told them the Lord wanted them to do, he resorted to judgment verses against them. (I think that was his way of staying convinced he was right and they were wrong).
Pretty soon he was so far out there, he wound up on the streets, drove his wife away, and spent time in a mental help facility. All the time thinking he was being persecuted. I lost track of him after about 10 years, so perhaps he eventually had a deeper encounter with Christ. I hope so, because for those years he actually hurt a lot of people rather than helped or ministered.
Antipas, I know this blog makes fun of things, and sometimes crosses the line, but then there’s a time to get serious. And that is what several of us here are trying to do towards you. This thing about feeling like you have to be convincing on an argument, using so many scriptures, especially when there’s very little argument against what you’re saying, is missing the mark. The resistance you’re feeling isn’t persecution, but like Scrup alluded to, the Holy Spirit is trying to speak, but you won’t quit talking long enough for Him to get through.
Really, you’re not Paul; you’re not Jesus. You’re just a guy like the rest of us, trying to please God the best way he knows at this point in your life. Please don’t keep pressing down this road of delusional self-importance. It’s not the way of the cross or being clothed with humility, but is instead exactly what Scrup said, the exercise of proud flesh and will not be fruitful. I have no doubt that was the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking right to you, brother.
I know we’ve went back and forth, and some of it I egged you on in fun, but this is serious, much more serious than winning an argument about heaven or even what’s going to happen at the end of the age. God wants to use you, but not this way. Please listen to the voice of the Spirit.
“Like apples of gold in settings of silver
Is a word spoken in right circumstances.” Prov. 25:11 NASV
To answer your question – No.
In fact, I have been asked to teach multiple times ( ie take over a adult Sunday school class).
Btw, nice try at back peddling and attempting to lighten up your responses – sincere apologies work wonders but excuses dont. Whether you realize it or not – you answered exactly the same way as they did Christ, John, and Paul. The religious ALWAYS seek to murder and discredit the truth- Always.
Allow me to say any person who thinks that continuing in known sin / overcoming sin such as:
- adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings,
is a “work” and will “go to heaven” if they “profess Christ” and “laughed for about 5 minutes on that one. It’s the one-sided spin on them that bothered me, works/judgment/salvation as a process and uncertainty until the end of your life or end of the ag.” is Deceived and Delusional.
It never has been true under any covenant that a person can take a certain action and from that point forward regardless of his or her behavior dwell with God in God’s righteous Kingdom. It is not true now and shall not be true for eternity.
Any deception is a lie from the enemy. The delusion is from God because when faced with truth – a person choses the lie. When this happens a person will bear the natural consequences of their sin and hopefully come around if not then God will send a spirit of delusion.
Would God send a spirit of delusion ? Yes He will – He answers according to a persons idols and their character ( Psalm 18, Ez 14, and
2 Thess 2
10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
- they refused to love the truth ( and be saved)
- GOD SENDS THE DELUSION
- Condemned who ignore the truth
- Pleasure in sin
Think about the following the next time you take the Lords Supper with fellow Christians.
1 Corinthians 11:27-31
27Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
28Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
30That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
31But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.
Allow me to ask – is continuing in fornication, porn, drugs, drinking etc while professing Jesus save a person so they can go to heaven or “enter the Kingdom” because they are saved by grace ?
-”That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.”
So much for “saved” by grace. This is early death by willful sin
Would heaven be heaven with people like this ? Does a person change or suddenly stop sinning when they die ?
Fact 1 – Sin originated around the throne of God (IS 14)
Fact 2- Adam / Eve sin with God present in the Garden and God didnt stop it
Fact 3 – Is a person changed by physical death ? No – death is a enemy and will be destroyed (1 Cor 15:55 & 26)
Fact 4 Would heaven be heaven with people like this ? Sin is not permitted in the Kingdom. You will be gathered to people “just like you” That is perfect justice.
Truth has to be bought – it often comes with a heavy duty price tag. Consequences are real and can be painful or joyful. I know that “he who suffers in the flesh ceases from sin” very well and have been humbled by it. Believe me I have been taken to the wood shed by God many times and God has used a “ass” much like Balaam’s story to correct me. I have learned to repent quickly to avoid both when shone.
Permit me to say – maybe He is using one right now on you and you just dont realize it yet…
Back to the original introduction by the author in quoting Acts 15 in the introduction and “which discusses the different requirements between Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles”
If you permit….Lets take a look at Acts 15 and some referenced verses and see if there really are different requirements between Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles”
Acts 15
9Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,
20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
- abstain from the things polluted by idols
- from sexual immorality
- from what has been strangled, and from blood.
Lets take a look at cross referenced scripture:
Rev 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Fornication is pretty clear – there are plenty of warnings from Christ, apostles, and the OT ( Christ was pretty clear on this He forgave and commanded “go and sin no more”)
“Things sacrificed unto idol” – Lets take a look since it is mentioned several times in the NT and see where it goes.
During the days of the Apostles there were public heathen temples and market place foods a where one could eat food that had been offered to the demon gods.
1 Cor 8:4
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Cor 8:10
For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
In India and other 2nd and 3rd world countries there are idols everywhere. There are many idols in Western civilization ( btw, mammon was the only god Jesus mentioned ). Given that – what are the idols of America and the west ?
God gave the Jews Kosher laws laws because it was thought that to eat something is to incorporate it into one’s person so that it becomes part of him. However, Christ said it is not what comes into a person that defiles a man, but what come out.
Matt 15
17Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?
18But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person.
19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.
20These are what defile a person….
I think the next couple of verses speaks volumes:
1 Cor 15:
33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Here is a little list of following areas of personality and behavior are part of the personality and behavior and are mentioned in the scriptures. They are often harmful and part of the demon world. They are present in our culture that demand out time, attention, and resources and have a profound effect on a persons behavior.
Partying / Profanity / Violence
Lust and perversions
Excessive health / physique /exhibitionism /narcissism
Feminism / Effeminate behavior / cross-dressing
Entertainment/excitement/thrills
Alcohol /drunkness, drug / tobacco
Abundance of wealth / overly luxurious / desire for power and prestige
Gluttony / Witchcraft / video games / electronic devices used for sin
Worship of children
Over education/ Pursuing excellence in music, art forms, sports
There are consequences for all behavior – all. Sometimes our sins are revealed before our death. In other instances they pass with us into the spirit realm at our death.
1 Tim 5
24 Some men’s sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. (I Timothy 5:24)
I’m pickin up what you’re layin down about the 4 restrictions put on the gentile believer’s, and the various froms of idolatry then and now, but the original reason for the Council at Jerusalem was because men came down from Judea, and were teaching the brethren that unless they were circumcised they couldn’t be saved (Acts15:1) Then some of the Pharisees who believed said it was necessary to observe the law of Moses as well as be circumcised.(Acts 15:5)
Jayjacque wrote:
“Pretty soon he was so far out there, he wound up on the streets, drove his wife away, and spent time in a mental help facility. All the time thinking he was being persecuted. I lost track of him after about 10 years, so perhaps he eventually had a deeper encounter with Christ.”
‘Scrupe reples:
Or maybe he got a dog.
In term of your crazy friend….maybe he wasn’t crazy. They said the same thing of Joan of Arc.
Heb 11
33who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
35Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life.
36Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.
37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—
38of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
- went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—
- whom the world was not worthy
- wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Anti
You wrote: “In regards to what you wrote – I am pretty sure what I put will be in complete contradiction despite the quoting of the scripture and yours of church tradition ( please excuse me on this – I am dont mean to be arrogant but I don’t want to waste my time or yours on this – Matthew 7:6 Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you).”
I will pray about this one for sure. However, imo, the caution of reproof for those who would not receive or be offended (pearl seen as a stone thrown), was from those whom it was known were against the wise and life giving counsel of the word of God. I would suggest that maybe you are not hearing me in my message, because you may have judged from my entry that I am against (not open to) the word of God. At least, that is what your scripture reference could indicate. Even though I strive in my maturity to be edified and continually lining up with the word of God, I will continually need more maturity. However, you have given me admonishment based on your leading, and you have that right to follow your leading. I would not consider you arrogant for your statement, but I might be as bold and encourage you to know more about a person, prior to such a statement; to encourage wisdom in your knowledge. It’s impossible to cast the word of God for the sake of edification or admonishment without first judging or understanding the application or need for that word. For example, if I am struggling with porn a good brother will cut through my heart with the healing words I need. However, that scripture, if my struggle is finding a good job, might divide our relationship (painting a picture). Likewise, I could only imagine the devastation toward the love I am commanded to show my wife, If her moment’s of speech were under my constant exam, supported by scripture, with utter disregard for the person and heart of Christ that I know she gives herself daily to be. But because I know her and the whole of her moment’s of speech, I know she is a Godly woman and understand, through relationship, the admonishment she needs as the Lord brings revelation. Nonetheless, each will do as he pleases, according to his leading. My striving with you will be to follow the advice of Col 3:12-17 and understand God’s heart in the matter. All said, if I misconstrued an accusation to you in my words, I stand corrected and I apologize for that.
For conversation; your take please on your question(s) surrounding heaven? You have an agenda with your questions, your take please. Also, is it your opinion, as admonished through the many scriptures in your post, that the posters on this blog believe it’s ok to be a fornicator (many detestable things, just using one for example) and a believer at the same time?
Thank you for appropriate and kind reply. Before I proceed forward and answer the seaming contradiction question that you asked which is a bit involved and time consuming (I hate typing – It is harder for me – my gift and insight comes verbally with prayer and meditation ).
Allow me to ask you for the following ( consider this a senses test). What is your take on the following
Matt 13:3-9
Matt 13:24-30
You can keep it simple.
Again – this is for a reason ( note vs. 13)
Mark 4
11And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
12so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”
13And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
Simple answers will work – doesn’t have to be in depth. Just what is “your take” on them.
If you “get them” (ie 20/20 eyes to see and ears to hear)- I will proceed if not please accept my decline to answer graciously.
Shalom,
Anitpas Knight & Titan ( my collie)
OK, anti. You have taken a position of authority among us that is not yours to take. People have been pretty nice about answering you. But this really takes the cake. You won’t discuss these issues unless someone is deemed by you to be enlightened enough?
‘Scrupe really was right when he compared you to CBC leadership:
a) they teach without allowing honest discussion
b) they exalt themselves into positions of authority
c) they infer that questioning them is questioning God Himself
d) they “use” Scripture to prove their own points
Next, you’ll be asking us to send us your tithe. Please.
Second.
I appreciate your knowledge of the Bible, Antipas. But this is probably an area where we are going to have to agree to disagree.
No I havent taken a position of authority or whatever you are inferring.
Someone asked me a direct question. I simply “tested the waters” as I was directed. No more – no less.
Without trying to sound arrogant – it didn’t concern you so it didn’t bother you. I did not ask for money or sex or support of any kind despite your presumption. If you didn’t care my answer, then you might want to……..
Btw, this was a response to Ana
Catalyst,
Thank you for the kind reply and the blog. I appreciate it.
I am sure you can see why I am hesitant to reply to the question and to reply the way was done under quite a bit of prayer.
I check in with God quite a bit, the insight comes from Him – its not me. As mentioned earlier – it is a gift that was passed down from a very godly mother much like Timothy. It has been recognized by pastors and prophets since I was a child. I was severely discourged from attending Christian bible school to study theology due to the contradictions that exist in the crossover from Judaism to Christianity. As mentioned before I am just a regular guy. I am not a pastor nor am I looking for money or want any. By background is business and medical ( anti-rejection for organ transplantation) which has lead me to interact with some very smart people who are incredibly smart( ie world thought leaders in the genetics & dna as such). Needless to say – I learned to become very detail orientated along the way. I have been asked to teach adult Sunday school on multiple ocassions but the Lord keeps on coming back – not yet – now is not the time. Whether it be me or the intended audience or both.
However, allow me to state the obvious – if this blog is for people who came out of destructive churches from money grabbing control freaks ( I have seen this at COH in Boise, ID). How much of what one has been taught is correct ??? I
am not saying I know it a lot of what current Christians believe is based on tradition vs. the bible.
This blog which started from the another blog clearly demonstrated that. I am sure that was not intentional but that is what occurred. Allow me to point this out.
Behavior that will not enter the Kingdom vs. required to get into heaven.
What was found out during this discourse is the following:
- There is not a single verse in the OT/NT that supports heaven as the goal of Christian salvation.
- That repentance from the things mentioned in Gal 5:19-21 is considered a ” one-sided spin on them that bothered me, works/judgment/salvation”
Repentance from the following is considered “a work “:
sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies
As mentioned earlier and stated in the title:
Much of Pauls writings (ie Romans are taken WAY out of context. Are we saved by grace – Of course. However, that means the “moral” law of the Torah is very much intact and in fact now much more strict ( ie look at a woman with lust = adultery as Jesus said).
The new covenant as stated in Heb 8 is the writing of Gods law on our hearts and mind vs. stone tablets. A disciple of Jesus is under the Torah – however it has transcended as seen in Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
What one does it up to them and salvation is a very individual thing – but if someone is coming out of a “bad church” you might want to revisit “EVERYTHING” you believe and dont take anyones word for it including my own.
If you think otherwise, then when Jesus said “go and sin no more ” to the woman caught in adultery or to the man who was possessed by a legion (ie 3000+) “go and sin no more less a worse thing come upon you” – then He really didn’t mean it because they would go to heaven anyways…
Shalom,
Mike & Titan
I think you may have to take a more direct approach with Antipasta.
Nobody gives a shit, dude. Now move along.
Thanks for the blessing it is greatly appreciated !!!!
What is ironic ( I’ll do my best to be kind). People will go to a church and get lied to,coerced into tithing, abused, and get false doctrine.
Would you recognize a true apostle or real prophet or true teaching or a truthful evangelist if you were to hear one ? I am not inferring I am one but history shows that they are not recognized and persecuted and killed all day long by religious phonies and politicians.
Given your response (btw I have been called much worse by clergy / scholars) Come on – you can do better – if your gonna curse – then go for it and make it worthwhile.
There are reasons why Gods judgement is America and its gonna get far worse.
He is “fattening up” western Christians much like fattening up a cow before the slaughter. The Jews had their holocaust – Western Christians are next.
Btw, the next time your in church why dont jump up & down to practice for “the rapture”. When it comes – you will be ready
Shalom,
Mike & Titan
Sigh. I wish this conversation could have ended better.
Anti, forgive me for sticking my nose in where it didn’t belong. I just don’t understand your preoccupation with heaven. Why does it matter?
Anna,
No harm – no foul.
Allow me to say – everything. I will extend the same offer to you.
Allow me to ask you for the following ( consider this a “spiritual senses test” ). What is your take on the following
Matt 13:3-9
Matt 13:24-30
Keep it simple.
If you like – email it to me at mykesinger@gmail.com
Being honest – I am not going to take the time to pray, meditate, and type it up and throw it out if “the ground” isn’t ready. I sincerely hate typing – it is hard for me – the “Socratic Method” with fellow believers brings great insight for everyone.
Peace,
Mike & Titan
Anti, as with most of Jesus’ parables, there are layers of meaning. Thankfully, with this parable, he explained its meaning.
So I guess my “take” is to pray for good dirt. Because dirt can’t do anything on its own to get better.
Actually, I think Hebrews 5:11-14 is a better “test.”
I’m done feeding that spirit. We tried to help the guy and he doesn’t want it.
I really appreciate your help beyond words.
The “diet” to fed a sprit you suggested:
- “delusional”
- “cracked”
- ad hominem attacks
- No scriptures
- Repentance from the following is considered “a work “:
sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, orgies, drunkenness ( Gal 5:19-21)
Thanks for the offer “to feed my spirit” but I prefer meal of the body / blood of Christ based in the word and Holy Sprit than on a typical fast food spiritual American diet of twisted non scriptural “McTradtions”.
You reap what you sow and you are what eat.
A final few thoughts from me …
When I first received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, I was excited to tell my church friends and to put my gift to work for God. After all I reasoned, God most certainly gave me the gift for ministry and to be a blessing to everyone. I beleived that the gift not only qualified me for minsitry, but entitled me to minstry. Imagine my disappointment when my (non-charismatic) church friends distanced themselves from me when I talked about the wonderful new gifts the Father had given me.
To this day, I encounter non-charismatic believers who upon learning I have some of the 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 gifts, flee as if I’m a leper or possessed by a devil. It is disheartening to say the least.
Naturally, I tended to fault them for fleeing and did not see my own error for many years. Finally through a dream the Lord showed me that my responsibility in the matter, was that I shared my gifts and testimony indiscriminately. I learned the hard way that a testimony should be shared only when asked to share it. To share without being asked, is presumptuous and offensive to the hearer.
Another thing I’ve been considering recently about that, is when a person first receives the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, they still have a carnal mind, or more specifically, the process of having their mind renewed with the “mind of Christ” really hasn’t begun yet, for the simple reason that the Holy Spirit has only just taken up residence in them and begun the process of renewing the person’s mind. As such, my mindset when I was first baptised, was one of religious works. It was natural for my carnal mind to assume God gave me gifts to use on His behalf.
It was years before I learned that God gave me the gifts, primarly to mature me, as it mentions in 1 Corinthians 13 where it talks about the gifts which fade away as a person grows into “perfection” (the better translation is “maturity” or becoming the ‘full man’) …
To that end, when I first received, I ran off and joined up with a discipling school for those new to the prophetic gifts and attended several prophetic conferences in Kansas city where I met many believers in the same boat as I found myself. It’s an odd memory, but at the first conference, I collected a number of business cards from the spiritually baptised / gifted that boasted of names and titles such as “Evangelist” or “Prophet to the Nations” or “Apostle”. Deeply troubled by the titles people were taking, I asked the Father when I returned home “What am I?”
He replied: “Would you settle for son?”
“YES!”
For me at least, I now see it as error and believe it to be all too common, when a believer receives the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts, the inclination to take those gifts and run with them, wielding them according to the religious (and carnal) understanding of the person who is given them, rather than to view them as tools the Father gives to teach and mature the person.
In the 13 (?) years since the baptism, I find myself using the gifts less and concerned more with loving the brethren and the unsaved.
I used to be incensed that the non-charismatic church I went to made no allowance for any of the spiritual gifts, in fact, counseled against them and had in place a contingency plan to deal with anyone who spoke in tongues should they ever disrupt one of their religious services. Now I understand that the gift was for me alone and I feel no compulsion to try to force it on anyone or any gathering.
I’m fairly convinced now that there are no more apostles or prophets – that was something given to seed the the ecclesia after the time of Christ, and never should have been made the focus of believers. Rather, I think every believer should aspire to SONSHIP. Nothing more, nothing less.
In a son, all the gifts are at work as the Holy Spirit so desires and empowers.
About my own actions when I first received, though the Father lead me into sonship, I still put up a web site and wrote dozens of articles. Only one however was I ever supposed to release to the ecclesia as far as I know, and that is the series of articles refuting the mammon-loving tithe theology so prevalent today.
So much of what I did was back then was the result of a mind not yet made over into the mind of Christ – a mind concerned with vain religious works and in some way, earning a portion of my own salvation, or proving my worth to the Lord, or seeking recognition of my own spirituality from men.
If I could go back and give one word of advice to myself back then, it would be to wait upon the Lord and take no action on His behalf unless specifically directed and confirmed.
In hindsight, that which I thought was ministry back then, may have actually proved to hinder the real work of Christ, by offending people, hurting people, hardening their hearts, etc.
Love and a quiet spirit witnesses far better than trumpeting from the rooftops.
So long, Myke. I hope you find what you are looking for.
Jack
Jack,
Thanks for the post. I have seen the quality and quantity of fruit of the Spirit in your previous writings.
Your words, answers, scriptural insight clearly speak and reflect the involvement of of Christ and the Holy Spirit in your life.
Blessings,
Antipasta ( as you “fondly” stated) and my dog Titan (the sane one)
Good word, ‘scrupe. Aren’t most of us who have been Christians for awhile just red with embarassment when we think back upon some of the things we did in youthful zeal? I know I am. Thankfully, our Father is a true Father and knows a toddler when He sees one! His grace never ends.
Anna,
Allow me to be clear on the “tone” of my previous posting to “scrupe” and “read between the lines / tone”.
It is meant to be100% sarcastic (ie fruit, Spirit, Christ, and interaction for the lack thereof is based on the previous postings, his intentional twisting of the scriptures, uncool mocking, and my “thin ice” references). I wrote it such a way it requires a bit of understanding what occurred previously. I think He has a pretty good idea of what occurred. I hope that clarifies it.
Anna,
Sorry – I left out Matt 18:23 & 36-43. take a look at the explanation and let me know what comes to you..]
Heb 5:11-14 is awesome and is a great cross reference – 1 step at time if you permit (Heb is written to ultra advanced Christians who were Jewish ).
Jesus said the understanding of the parable of the sower is the foundation of the parables – the parable of the tares corresponds with it like blades of scissors.
The parable in Matt 18:23ff is the disparity of our debt to God and others’ debt to us. It’s about forgiveness.
There is no Matt 18:36ff.
Would you please stop sounding like my 3rd grade math teacher? I teach math to middle-schoolers, and I know that tone.
Hi Anna,
You are fine. Please accept my apology – the scripture is Matt 13:23 & 36-43. I know it is a lame excuse – my typing skills are terrible.
Give that a go – it should help.
Matt 13:23 is individual: I’m going to pray for good dirt.
Matt 13:36-43 is eschatological: I’m going to wait for the Day of the Lord.
Scrupe,
Your last post really blessed me. I really HAVE seen the gifts of the Spirit in your posts, Anna also. You guys are much appreciated.
Thanks, Batman!
My last thoughts…
The devil likes to quote scripture in wrong applications to work his agenda (Lk. 4:9-11).
And
Some immature disciples go through stages of wanting to call fire down from heaven on those who don’t receive them or their message, not realizing what spirit is motivating them at the time (Lk. 9:51-56).
I’m literally gonna consider the source and move on.
Oh, and that there are still a bunch of kooks running around masquerading in christian circles.
Now I’m done, I think.
It is rather like playing verbal racquetball off that forehead of his, isn’t it?
Buon giorno, Anna!
I would like to open a dialogue with you, but first, would you be so kind as to give me your impression on Proverbs 26:11 that I may assess your worthiness? Please be concise and avoid ad hominem commentary.
Should your answer prove satisfactory, I shall proceed to enlighten you with the mysteries of my navel.
Ciao!
Antipasto and his faithful dog Lasagna
Oh my land. Anna is my friend. Quit it, Antipasto. Or maybe I misunderstood what evil and cruel things are coming out of your mouth – and came into the conversation at the wrong time. But in any case, Christians don’t act like you’ve been acting. She’s been very gracious – as the others have been. People like you are the reason Christianity & Christ are misrepresented to the world. Give it up.
Thank you, Anti. It’s why I don’t have a dog. Hairballs are bad enough.
Excellent reply, Anna. May I call you Anna?
You are welcome to call me Anti, of course.
One more question, if you please.
Has anyone ever called you Anna Banana?
Your pal, Antipasto and his faithful (Catholic) dog Lasagna
I have no problem being a fool for Jesus. I will gladly suffer insults for truth and persecution for righteousness sake. All it does is take me to pray and come into the presence of Jesus and strengthen the ability to forgive – there is a virtue in the blood of Christ – it speaks with gentle resolve ” Hold not this charge against them – they dont know what they are doing”.
Anna ( aka “teach”) , here is a quick run down on Matt 13 – you need to “fill in the blanks”. Couple of questions.
Parable of the sower ?
Who is the sower ?
What is the soil ? ( Luke 8:15)
What is the seed ?
How long does take a seed to germinate and become full grown ?
What conditions are needed to bring forth a crop ?
How many soils brought forth a crop ?
What does the crop represent ?
What does the 30/60/100 represent ?
What soils didnt bring a crop forward ?
What does rocky soil represent ?
What does thorns represent ?
What happens to the crop in the rocky soil ?
What happens to the crop in the soil among the thorns ?
Parable of the tares
What doe the tares represent ?
Where are the tares at the start ?
Where are the tares at the end ?
What is the outcome of the tares ?
What is the outcome of the wheat ?
How does one tell the difference between the wheat and a tare ?
Blessings – Mike (aka Antipas Knight ) and Titan
antipas, the answer to these questions is quite obvious upon reading the text. Please get to the point.
My answer remains the same:
The parable of the sower is about individuals. Our response is to ask the Father for good dirt.
The parable of the tares is about the Day of the Lord. It doesn’t require much of a response except maybe “Maranatha.”
Anna,
Thanks for the reply. I will withold my response to your question ” I just don’t understand your preoccupation with heaven. Why does it matter?”
Blessings,
Mike & Titan
Did I ask that? I got lost in this thread.
So you are telling me that your answer about heaven is in these parables, but I just didn’t get it? And there isn’t any other point you are trying to make?
Imitation is a compliment even if is done in poor taste. I guess the Holy Spirit must be convicting you to take the time make up screen psuedo screen name.
Persecution for righteousness sake is a blessing – thank you so !
Lets take a look at what Peter had to say in 2 Peter 2 in reference to Proverb 26:11
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. ?
?20If for having fled away from the pollution of the world by a knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, with these and again having been entangled they are overcome, has become to them the things last worse of the first. ?
?21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. ?
?21Better for it was for them, not to have known the way of the righteousness, than having known to have turned back from the having been delivered to them holy commandment. ?
?22What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
- escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
- they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
- Better for it was for them, not to have known the “way of the righteousness”,
Wow… “Better for it was for them, not to have known the way of the righteousness, ”
The Christian walk = “the way of the righteousness”
This is where I walked into the conversation and became utterly confused. Of course one is going to see persecution everywhere if they go looking for it, and creating hurt & confusion… and with what end in mind?
Allow me to suggest staying out of the conversation since you are not part of it ? Please pardon the direct tone but I dont want it being misconstrued ? There are some very uncool / immature people who think they are Christians and are not.
Btw, Machavelli said anyone who tells the truth and does the right thing will be persecuted. Funny Jesus said the same thing and died doing it.
The best position to take is on the cross – one cant kill a dead person (Rom 6:3 & Gal 2:20)
Dear NoStatusQuo,
Please forgive my outburst above. I forgot to take my lithium yesterday.
Today I remembered and also had a nice serving of prunes for breakfast. I’m feeling much better now.
Antipasto and his faithful dog Lasagna
Pasto, I hope you did not share your prunes with Lasagna. See, this is exactly why I do not have a dog.
Thank you for the advice, Anna!
That might explain Lasagna’s recent behavior.
The day we it first started snowing, Lasagna spent more time outdoors than in, scratching at the door at least a dozen times that day. I thought he was playing in the snow, but later that evening under soft moon-light, my back yard looked like chocolate-chip covered vanilla ice cream. Why, the yard looked like this blog after a few of my posts!
No more prunes for you, mio cane Lasagna!
Antipasto and his regular dog Lasagna
Sow a thought and you reap an action; sow an act and you reap a habit; sow a habit and you reap a character; sow a character and you reap a destiny.
The Apostle Paul did not discuss with Governor Felix going to Heaven and the “rapture,” as would be done today.
Paul reasoned of righteousness, temperance (self-control), and the Divine judgment that will fall on all who practice wickedness.
What I presented is simple thinking conditioned with HARD scriptural evidence. If you have a different model, fine; but if all you have to counter my model is a set of prejudices, you don’t have an case.
What you have is the end product of lasagna & prunes that is proceeding forward from your mouth.
If you just can’t believe I’m saying the things I say, at least consider the possibility that you’re the one who just doesn’t get it
Paul & works …..
Col 3:5-10
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices And have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
-Put to death
-You used to walk in these ways
-You must rid yourselves of all such things
- you have taken off your old self with its practices
Col
1If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.’]
-If you….seek the things that are above
-Set your minds on things that are above
Rom 6
11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, .. and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
- yourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ
-Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies
-FOR SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU in vs 14 ( funny how people only read half the verse – Pauls idea of being under grace is “not letting sin have dominon”
Definition of a Psychopath – someone who thinks they can have it both ways.
I have this wonderful picture of Antipasto sitting at home with Lasagna sitting in his lap surfing the world wide web in search for lost souls in need of saving.
Pretending to hate typing, The Captain of Cured Meats then begins his barrage of posts holding his new found subjects captive. In blind oblivion he types…and types, and types and types…until no one (not even ‘Scrupe) bother to read his heroic words.
When Platter of Olives has exhausted all his efforts and sees that his wisdom is falling on deaf ears…he wipes the dust of his feet (and paws) and walks away. ..never turning back for fear that he will be reduced to a pillar of overly salted Mozzarella.
The End.
Dude – you are so right….
As mentioned no one could come up with a single verse in the OT / NT as heaven being the goal or reward.
As mentioned – What was presented is simple thinking conditioned with HARD scriptural and logical evidence.
As mentioned – If you have a different model, fine; but if all you have to counter my model is a set of prejudices, pagan church traditions, and ad ad hominem attacks, then you might want to take a really hard look at your life and how much time you spend in the scriptures and and in alone time with Jesus.
Do ever wonder why Jews and Muslims look on Christian with distain ? There is no character, integrity, morals, or truth among other virtues – just excuses for bad behaviour.
I find it HILARIOUS that Christians look at Muslims (ie afterlife to greeted by 70 virgins) as delusional while Christians live a unchanged life and think by professing Christ they will go to a paradise ( ie retirement home / mansion) and those who dont profess Jesus will go to hell.
LMAO every single day and time I think about it……
Its about abiding ” in Christ ” which is daily and moment by moment interaction. This is the only way to fly. If one isnt pushing toward it – then they are missing out. ITS NOT THAT HARD – IT IS GREAT !!! JUMP IN !!!! ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS OBEY JESUS – IF YOU CANT ASK HIM FOR HELP TO DO IT. Ask anything in His name and He will do it. The problem is very few people ask. GET IT ???
Btw, Christ was more interested in disciples than saving souls.
Dude, if you honestly think I enjoy this “intercourse” with undisciplined, unscriptural, arrogant, carnal, worldly, American “Christians” cry babies ( I could think of A LOT more words) – THINK AGAIN.
As mentioned in the previous post – As a Jewish Christian I have more respect for Mormons than Christians. They are simply deceived by Joesph Smith. The majority of American Christians are self deceived by Satan ” did God really say that ” & “thou shalt not SURELY die”
As mentioned – If you just can’t believe I’m saying that are CLEARLY IN THE BIBLE AND COMMON SENSE, at least consider the possibility that you’re the one who just doesn’t get it
Dear antipas, You did not receive reactions from this group because of your presentation of the Word; you received these reactions because of your attitude and presentation.
Consider this: in a blog format, it is best to be short and concise. It is best to keep to one idea per post. On a Christian blog, Scripture addresses are sufficient. We have Bibles, or at least access online to one. You do not need to c/p verses into posts.
Also in blog-land, we are all created equal. So when entering a discussion, it “behooves” one to make a point, receive feedback, etc. Assuming a teaching position, or treating other readers as ignorant (or worse) will get you a reaction (as it did).
If you choose to leave us, that is your choice. But I for one am happy that my Father is my Judge.
“Consider this: in a blog format, it is best to be short and concise.” & “You do not need to c/p verses into posts.”
Btw, the Father is not the judge – Jesus is – the Father committed all judgement to the Son. John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
Do yourself a favor and others a favor (you wont sound like a typical uninformed / uneducated / lukewarm Christian when you quote the bible – take time to look up what you want to communicate before you do it). Btw, thank you for proving my point on why I post the scripture – it is because you like many other “Christians” dont ” fill in the blank”.
Dont blame your lack of knowledge or mishandling or the scriptures on me. That is your problem – not mine.
If one thinks “heaven is the goal” then maybe just maybe one should revisit everything. It isn’t my fault if you “dont get it”. Try praying, reading, and “showing some class” ( ie act Christ like).
Ever wonder why the world hates Americans ? Arrogant, loud, brash, gawdy, stupid and proud of it…
Most people live in the “text” / twitter world. There is a specific reason why I chose not to answer your “baited” question.
Not one of you knew that heaven wasnt the goal and some twisted the stated and twisted the scripture. Wow…. The reason why the scripture is stated is simply because no cares to take a look at and care WHAT IT actually says.
Some things actually require ‘some thought”. In regards to Pauls writing as Peter mentioned :
“There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”
Wow… “hard to understand” “twist to their own destruction” – Pauls writing have been misunderstood for 2000 years and you want “short and concise” ? Get real – LOL !!!!!!!! That has been the problem all along.
Again – dont blame your lack of knowledge or mishandling or the scriptures on me. That is your problem – not mine.
Btw, the heading of the blog was UNINTENTIONALLY MISINTERPRETED as “will not enter the Kingdom” vs. “requirements to get into heaven”. That is how deep it runs.
Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, ” rightly handling the word of truth”.
I saw “how the word of truth was handled” by you and others. How one handles it and is orientated will determine the outcome. With that being said – there is reason why I chose not to answer your a’baited” question – if you need need a further answer – ask Jesus for yourself.
History shows time and time again – prophets, Messiah, and apostles were never accepted in their generation – God shows up in the most unlikely places and most humble of situations. People dont like to confronted with truth. They take it personally.
Truth attacks the sin – the sinner will “feels it. As I quoted Paul “those who do those things will not inherit the Kingdom”. That is NOT a personal attack – however to the person doing those things – they will take it personally.
Btw, what was said of Paul during his day ? 2 Corinthians 10:10 – “His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account.” Some versions have his speech is contemptible. It isn’t it one has ears to hear -they will hear it and it will bring life- if one doesn’t – then it will cut to to the heart as Christ words did to the Pharisees.
1 Corinthians 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
I have no problem taking “the despised” path and welcome it. It leads to life.
Truthfully,
Antipas & Titan
I was remembering Genesis 18:25
You do not know me, nor anything about my relationship with God, nor my understanding of Scripture. And yet, you have judged me. (James 4:11-12)
I know by experience that the Holy Spirit is faithful to convict me of sin. I will trust Him to do His work in my heart. I am thankful that I am reconciled to God, because He who knew no sin was made sin for me.
Because He gave me grace to receive the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe on His name, I am a child of God.
…and that is why I am thankful that when He sees me, and looks upon my heart, I am no longer a child of wrath. He loves me. He knows me.
Lets try this 1 more time…You wrote not to include scripture when you yourself state something without scriptural support and in error.
Anna wrote:
“Consider this: in a blog format, it is best to be short and concise. It is best to keep to one idea per post. On a Christian blog, Scripture addresses are sufficient. We have Bibles, or at least access online to one. You do not need to c/p verses into posts.
“If you choose to leave us, that is your choice. But I for one am happy that my Father is my Judge.”
Scripture – Anna, you are incorrect.
The Father is not the judge – Jesus is – the Father committed all judgement to the Son. John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son. What you do with this is up to you.
Here is a Suggestion (again):
So you dont look really “unintelligent”- dont make suggestions to someone when you yourself make a mistake.
Do yourself a favor and others a favor (you wont sound like a typical uninformed / uneducated / lukewarm Christian when you quote the bible – take time to look up what you want to communicate before you do it). I mean this – go back and find scripture for what you believe. Think about it – meditate on it The meaning will open up. Dont take the pastors word or even mine – go back and read it in context (btw this is good advice – your welcome)
You proved the “exact reason” to the point on why I post the scriptures is because 99 % of the people believe tradition vs actually what the scriptures says – they are simply “blinded” to it. Do you get this ? This is a spiritual darkness.
So far here are screaming obvious misinterpretations in this blog.
- Not enter the Kingdom of God vs. Requirements for a Christian to get into heaven (unintentional mistake)
- Heaven is the goal / reward of heaven ( not scriptural to everyones surprise)
- Reward in heaven presented a heaven is the goal ( intentionally twisting)
- Father is my Judge (unintentional error).
Now each one of these corresponds with a disciples outcomes and are serious. far more serious than the Super Bowl and even Oprah. Now if 4 unscriptural beliefs are uncovered of one being intentionally – take notice !!!! Theses are important scriptures as all of them and will lead to how one orientates themself.
Jesus is the Logos – He “is the word” of God. May I suggest – He like when you Him and interact with Him and study about Him. The Word is a double edged sword – know what it says and learn how to use it directed by the Holy Spirit – it will save you or lead you to destruction ( It depends on how you use it – it will be impotent or all powerful).
Here is another one –
“when He sees me, and looks upon my heart, I am no longer a child of wrath”
“He loves me. He knows me.”
Really ? Scripture experience or Holy Spirit ?
Btw, you are welcome.
But my point, which apparently was missed, is that I am glad that it is God who judges me, and not you. … Because He knows me, He loves me, He saved me … And if God be for me, who can be against me?
Well, the post before this got lost. So let me try to reconstruct:
antipas, I concede. Yes, Scripture is clear that Jesus will be the Judge on the Day of Judgment.
However, Scripture is also clear that God is the Judge, and it was to those verses that I was referring. De 32;36, Ju 11;27, Ps 35;24, Is 33;22, Ez 34;17ff, He 10;30, Re 6;10.
In my day to day walk, I rely on God to evaluate (test) my heart through His Holy Spirit and through His Word. Jo 16;8ff, He 4;12-13, 2Ti 3;16.
And yes, I trust Him because He knows me and loves me. Ps 139, Jo 14;21, 1Jo 4; 9-10.
These phrases: “He sees me,” “He looks upon my heart,” “I am no longer a child of wrath,” “He loves me,” and “He knows me.” These are all scriptural phrases. I can give you the addresses if you like.
So my answer to your question “Scripture experience or Holy Spirit?” is YES. Both.
I typed the verses weirdly because I think too many of them jammed the program. I typed them so that they are unrecognizable to the system. Let’s see if that keeps my post.
Anna,
Gods judgement ( ie discernment) is past present and future on His chosen and the world.
His “reward” is past, present and future.
His “wrath” (punishment) is also past, present yet to come in the future.
Lots and lots of scripture.
There is “the day of wrath” that was part of the original Kingdom message”. That is “the day” where God Himself come with the armies of heaven to establish the thrones in “the air” and then descend to clean up the earth and establish His government on the earth.
Peeps that look toward “the 2nd coming” might not understand the terrible implications of Gods wrath against the ages (host of heaven) and generations (man) of disobedience, sin, evil etc… Kinda introspective – there are different “ages”
JpM wrote:
“Pretending to hate typing, The *Captain of Cured Meats* then begins his barrage of posts holding his new found subjects captive. In blind oblivion he types…and types, and types and types…until no one (not even ‘Scrupe) bother to read his heroic words.”
Oh how you bless me with your words, Johnpaul.
You see, my real love, lies in the culinary arts. Presently, I work for a famous chef. Perhaps you have heard of him?
His name is Boyardee.
Of my love for meats, I’m in an apprenticeship program to become a chef and was recently promoted to ‘joiner’. That is the person who takes the short pieces of spaghetti and joins the ends to make the little O’s.
In 90 days, I am to be moved up to meat-ball-roller for which I have the perfect hands. You see, the same affliction that makes typing difficult for me, leaves me ideally suited for rolling those little meatsa-balls. Perhaps you have seen my sister on SNL? She’s in the yellow dress, on the left.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/37752/saturday-night-live-the-lawrence-welk-show
Before she broke into show business, she was a dental hygeinist. Her hands were ideally suited for cleaning between teeth and the dentist saved a fortune on dental floss.
She’s also quite handy to have around when you don’t have a Q-tip.
Again, thank you for the encouraging and potentially ‘prophetic’ word, Johnpaul.
Antipasto and his faithful dog Lasagna
Dude…. I am flattered beyond words. You have no idea !!
You actually took the time to make a screen name and write lengthy replies and link youtube video’s – WOW !!!
I have moved from “whacked” to “delusion” to “cartoon figure of ridicule” !!!
Thank you for advancing me in the Kingdom at your expense in the Kingdom.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.
Whats next ????
Are you going to make a video ???
A comic strip of the adventures of Antipasto & Lasagna ?
Titan & I cant wait to see it!!
Titan is the smart one.
Antipasto and his faithful dog Lasagna
Collies are smart.
In fact, TItan told me he is pretty sure his manners and intelligence are far superior to yours ( I think his IQ might be higher than yours. I suggest coming up with something really creative to prove me wrong).
The upside is he finds Jerry Springer level pokes entertaining.
Btw, dont feel bad – he comes down on my tying skills and even types better than me.
Your “tying skills”?
Poor Titan. But I understand. If you didn’t tie him, he’d surely run away from you.
Antipasto and his faithful dog Lasagna
He would prefer to stay with you. He likes Antipasto & Lasagna & prunes. Titan has his downfalls.
He is a luke warm in his walk and hates studying the word.
He prefers: repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness; trinket gods; magic-show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits; the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community.
He also hates reading Gal 5 and where it says “This isn’t the first time I have warned you, you know. If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit God’s kingdom.”
He says “it single sided works “. Btw we have this conversation all the time – he wants to be raptured into “heaven” . He thinks that accepting Jesus = go to heaven even though he hasnt changed.
Imo, that is the problem with a smart dog. He thinks he is outsmarting God ( can you imagine that ?)
Even though he profess to know God, but he denies him by his actions. He is detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work (Titus 1:16)
You should be hermeneutered.
For entertainment value only…
A prayer to Anti-pasta (since he is so elevated):
Oh great and knowledgeable persecuted one, please show us the way. For you know so much and we so very little. You are so right and full of truth in every way, and we are so lost and in need of your perspective and values. Feed us, oh great one, for you who are such a lone but powerful voice crying out and so utterly persecuted in this western hemisphere wilderness we call America. Teach us, if you will, all your amazing points of scriptural enlightenment, so we may learn, since at this point we either know nothing at all, or everything we do know is utterly and completely wrong, because it doesn’t match up with what you know to be true.
We confess we are the church, so ungodly, so not up to G_d’s standards, and therefore so not up to your standards. Bawl us out, oh great one, for you have all the answers, and we have none. Even on the smallest matters of discussion, we fail, but you prevail. Set us straight or we will surely be judged for our gross iniquities of rapture-like tendencies. Please eradicate from our thinking this chief of all sins, seeking of heavenly goals or rewards. Like a cancer, cut it out with a thousand judgmental scriptures. For we are just not capable on our own. Nor can we be, since we’re all just part of this great falling away.
Alas, we’re not good enough for you, nor will we ever be. For we are, after all, just the fallen church of professors, not possessors, like you oh great one. We cannot hope to abide in perfectness as you, fulfulling every jot and tittle..We cannot hope to achieve maximum discipleship obedience in order to attain salvation, for that is reserved for only the most chosen ones such as yourself. We, on the other hand, deserve wrath and the severest judgment for our complete failures.
But please, oh great one, if there is any hope at all left for us, will you intervene on our behalf. And if not, at least we know that there is still one left who totally knows all and completely obeys and lives out all scriptures. It is thou, Anti-pasta, oh great and mighty one.
I’m so thankful for a Heavenly Daddy who loves me (and all His kids), more than any earthly dad can. Even wayward kids He’s crazy about. Not His will that any should perish, but like the prodigal son who was still a long ways off, the Father was filled with compassion (not judgment) and ran out to meet Him and threw a party.
The spirit of condemnation, it just ain’t from God.
As usual – out of context :
8I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and “is alive again”; and was lost, and is found.
Alive again :
– Repentance to God and man
- Stop living with harlots and riotous living
According to you: its quite allright to continue with harlots and riotous living except now its at the dads house / expense.
Because repentance from repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness; trinket gods; magic-show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits; the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community as mentioned in Gal 5 doesnt mean what it says…
Or is
“It’s the one-sided spin on them that bothered me, works/judgment/salvation as a process and uncertainty until the end of your life or end of the age. It’s your perogative I guess, just like my perogative is to emphasize God’s love and mercy towards His kids “
Buòn Giòrno blog fans!
Antipasto and his faithful dog Lasagna here, to pose another haughty straw-man argument to help you start your ‘day of the Lord’.
Recently I have noticed fewer of you are replying to my posts, which I take to mean you are luke warm about the faith. Do you not know that if you are lukewarm, the Lord will spit you out of his mouth?
Rev 3:16
(16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
As you know, I like to copy and paste scripture from my computer Bible. It’s amazing what the Commodore 64 can do! For CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT, here is the entire chapter from Revelations for your reading pleasure.
Rev 3:1-22
(1) And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
(2) Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
(3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(4) Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
(5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
(6) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
(7) And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
(8) I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
(9) Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
(11) Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
(12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
(13) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
(14) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
(15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
(16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
(17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
(18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
(19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
(20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
(21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
(22) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Next up, CHAPTER 4. But I’ll wait for you to finish reading chapter 3.
There will be a test on your comprehension of chapter 3, of course. I’ll be the one asking the questions and judging your answers. Punishment for wrong answers will be to inhale the burning sulfur from a freshly lit match, just to prepare you for the lake of fire that awaits you for your wrong answer!
With Christian love,
Ciao!
Antipasto and his faithful dog Lasagna
Ill be glad to answer your questions. However you first need to answer first..
Where does it state in the bible that heaven is the goal / reward – verses in in the OT / NT ?
Quite often when a person doesn’t want to address a issue and is attempting to elevate themselves while lowering the other person ( ie humiliating them ) via ad homieum argument.
Imo, it is gaudy and I find it quite immature. Grow up !
“However you first need to answer first.”
NO! You first need to answer first, first.
Antipasto and his faithful dog Lasagna
Hey Scrup – I asked that question earlier/ first.
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Romans 2:10)
To the person who works good will receive glory, honor, and peace, whether he is a Jew /Gentileo or Christian, or of any race.
Christians have willingly ignored and perverted the teaching of the Apostle Paul with heaven, / rapture / unconditional love.
The result has been the moral destruction of the Christian churches and America.
As mentioned in Rev 2 & 3 – their words (mentioned 7 times) are worthless as witnesses of the Person, will, way, eternal purpose, and Kingdom of Almighty God.
God will not have fellowship with evil works whether or not the individual professes faith in Christ.
I have to ? I dont consent to that.
Its meaningless to consent to swine and dogs.
Matt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you
Our heart must be guarded with all diligence, for out of it proceed the springs of life (Proverbs).
Anyone can be lead into deception. But if we keep on letting the Lord know we love Him, and keep an open, gentle spirit, the Lord will get us back on track, just as He did with David ( have to be childlike to enter the Kingdom – not a argumentative arrogant loud adult demanding their own way)
David committed adultery and murder. And as a result – his sins came back to him and he suffered for the remainder of his life. But he died in honor and wrote the Psalms.
God does not expect us to be perfect. But He does require that when it comes to our attention we have sinned we humble ourselves, get back up on our feet, and press forward in Christ as the prodigal son demonstrated.
It is simply psychotic to say repentance from our sins is “single sided works”. The prodigal son repented to God and man and stopped riotous living with harlots – This brings life and joy into the person ( and those around ) that does it.
Wow, I haven’t seen a character like this since Cattle List left.
Antipas, even if you are right, your attitude is doing your argument no favors. Ask yourself if it’s more important for your message to be received or to browbeat those that disagree with you. As my mom likes to say, “Do you want to win, or feel good?”
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.
Cattle List?
I don’t remember that one, though Antipasta does remind me of Cowboy more than a little.
Cowboy was at least smart enough to pick up on suggestions from Johnpaul and Catalyst to leave.
By their fruits you shall recognize them. One of 2 things, either this guy’s a brother but so screwed up he doesn’t know how to live out the most basic fruit of the spirit. Or he’s a complete phoney through and through. God only knows. If he’s a complete phoney, it wouldn’t be the first time a pretender used a lot of scripture.
What are your thoughts on scriptures like this ?
1 Cor
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
” not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of:
- sexual immorality
- greed
- idolater,
- reviler
- drunkard,
- swindler
—not even to eat with such a one.
Compared to Gal 5
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God
and
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
“And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires “( But wait – this is “work”) -:)
Seriously -Have you read Gal 5 in whole ?
What about the rest ?
You quote the “fruit of the Spirit” it is mentioned in GAL 5 but you throw out vs. 19-21 as “single sided work”. How about vs 24 “And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires”
Honestly – can you “see it” ?
LOL – your welcome
There are none blind as he who will not see.
Titus 3:10 is divisive
Jn. 9:41 blind but saying he sees
Gal. 5 the works of the flesh are obvious – hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions
Gal. 5 the fruit of the spirit is void – love, forbearance, kindness, goodness, self-control
I John 4:20 says he loves God, but hates his brothers
I Cor. 8:2 thinks he knows something but doesn’t even know the most basic
Romans 12:16 is proud and conceited
Prov. 6:19 a false witness stirring up conflict
Acts 8:9, 23 makes himself out to be someone great but still captive in his own sin
Gal. 2:4 possibly even a false believer seeking to enslave again
Congratulations Anti, you’re living out the bible!
In light of this thread – this is a great read for everyone.
http://www.worldchallenge.org/en/node/16843?src=devo-email
Um, ok? Good exhortation from Pastor Wilkerson, as usual. But why is it pertinent?
That is not what Titus 3:10 says. Paul tells Titus to refuse a person who is “schismatic”, “factious” — a person who belongs to a sect and seeks to make converts, because such a person is twisted.
That is also not what I Cor. 2:8 says. Paul says that had the rulers of this age understood the wisdom of the gospel, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. — Granted, it was stupid, but you extrapolated that from the text.
Good catch, Anna. But why bother with him?
Did you notice that the origional post of his to which you are referring, has been deleted?
Just one more thing to show the jerk has no credibility.
‘Scrupe