We get questions, lots and lots of questions:

I moved to San Diego in 2004 from the East Coast and started attending the City Church plant in San Diego. I left with my husband in July of 2006, leaving my 2 teenage girls there because they were so involved with Generation Church. I went back in April of 2007 to be supportive of my girls, but left about one month ago because I felt they were in grave error.

You don’t know how many times I read the posts on this blog to confirm what I always thought about the City Church. I would not post while I was attending there because I felt that would be unfair to church or my kids. I really wanted to go back with the right attitude and give it another try which I felt I really did.

I have a question regarding the pastor’s salaries.

Those pastors in a church plant, are their salaries paid by the mother church in Seattle?

Do any of these MFI churches ever reveal the church’s finances to the body of believers? My general opinion of all MFI churchs are that they are are a dusted-off, revived version of the 1970s discipleship movement of the Charismatic movement.

Also, is there anyone else out there who has left the church only to leave teenagers behind in Generation Church?

Any readers know the answer to these questions?

I've thought a lot about the subject of God ordaining evil over the past week…and what I decided was that I don't have the answers…it's all a little confusing for me. I would, however, still like to continue this discussion.

For starters, this whole concept of God Ordaining Evil is obviously offensive to some, but the problem is that no-one has been able to tell me where "evil" came from. Now, maybe we should just refer to it as "the mystery of iniquity" and say we don't know where evil came from…which I could accept, but that doesn't really help this discussion…so I'd still like someone to take a stab at explaining how God can be all powerful and the Creator of the world and yet take no responsibility for "evil" showing up.

One of the most interesting parts of this discussion for me is the issue of trusting a loving God. When I sit back and say "God is the author of all the good, bad, and ugly on this earth and I have no way of knowing His plan and purpose due to the fact that I am an ignorant fool in comparison to His great glory" it makes me feel comforted…comforted to know that there is a reason and a purpose that I may not understand…but by faith I can believe that God will work all this out for his own Glory.

Others seem to be saying, "How can you have peace and trust in a God who would ordain such evil".

Here's where I am at: This world is NOT about me, and it's NOT about you…or anyone else for that matter. We are simply here to bring Glory to God, and when I hear people say, "It's not in God's nature to ordain evil", I say "Who are you to say what is and what is not in God's nature?" There have been many scriptures listed that show "God's nature" being one of wrath and anger in which He clearly ORDAINS a lot of horrible sounding things (at least horrible in our human reality)…but do any of us want to stand before God and tell Him what He should and should not do?

It sounds to me like we want to apply our ideals to God when maybe, just maybe, God is bigger than we can even imagine. For instance, we define "love" as "a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person"; we than see that the Bible claims that "God is Love" therefore God must exibit "a profoundly tender and passionate affection for mankind"…but who are we to tell God what Love is?

Should we apply our limited knowledge to a limitless God?

I'm not sure if I am being very clear at all or if I've just lost my mind…last night, Negro-D said to me "This is really a conversation that should be had over beers…it's to complex to discuss in this forum"…and I think he's right. Still, it's fun to try.

Let me leave you with a few comments from a man who amazes me every time I read his stuff:

John Piper, over at http://www.desiringgod.org/ has this to say in an article discussing "Open Theism":  

But in reality our pain and losses are always a test of how much we treasure the all-wise, all-governing God in comparison to what we have lost. We see this merciful testing of God throughout the Scriptures. For example, in Deuteronomy 8:3 Moses said, "And [God] humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord." In other words, God ordains the hard times ("he . . . let you hunger") to see if good times are our god. Do we love bread, or do we love God? Do we treasure God and trust his good purposes in pain, or do we love his gifts more, and get angry when he takes them away?

We see this testing in Psalm 66:10-12, "For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried. You brought us into the net; you laid a crushing burden on our backs; you let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water." And we see it in the life of Paul. When he prayed for his thorn in the flesh to be taken away Christ told him what the purpose of the pain was. "Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness'" (2 Corinthians 12:8-9). The test for Paul was: Will you value the magnifying of Christ's power more than a pain-free life?

We see this testing in 1 Peter 1:6-7, "In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, as was necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith - more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire - may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." God ordains trials to refine our faith and prove that we really trust his wisdom and grace and power, when hard times come. Similarly in James 1:2-3, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. . . . Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." Do we love God? That is the point of the test. Do we cherish him and the merciful wisdom of his painful purposes, more than we cherish pain-free lives? That is the point of God's testing.

Our trials reveal the measure of our affection for this earth - both its good things and bad things. Our troubles expose our latent idolatry.

For those who believe that God rules purposefully and wisely over all things, our response to loss is a signal of how much idolatry is in our souls. Do we really treasure what we have lost more than God and his wisdom? If we find ourselves excessively angry or resentful or bitter, it may well show that we love God less that what we lost. This is a very precious discovery, because it enables us to repent and seek to cherish Christ as we ought, rather than being deceived into thinking all is well.

Oh, and David Mackin, I'm sure you've got good reasons to keep silent on this subject, but I'm just dying to know…what are your thoughts?

caj recently made this comment on another post:

 I will, however, have to differ from your thoughts about God ordaining EVERYTHING that happens in this world. I believe that this world is a fallen place, and is currently under the control of the evil one. 1 John 5:19 tells us, "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." In Luke 4:5-6, Jesus is being tempted by satan, "And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, I will give You all this domain and it's glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

We are aliens here, representing another kingdom. We should be showing this world what things would be like if Christ was in control. His complete control will come later, as described in Revelation 10:15, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

Bad things can and do happen, that are not the will of God. This is why we should pray daily not to be led into temptation and to be delivered from the evil one. (The Lords' Prayer) We are at war here, and behind enemy lines. We suffer and take casualties, but they are not all from God's hand. (He does prune and chastise His own, but I don't include murder, rape, torture as being from Him)

This was in regards to my comment:

The peace that comes from knowing Jesus helps when you fully understand that everything (and I mean everything) that happens in this world is ordained (or allowed) by God. The good, the bad, and the in-between all happen with God's permission. The devil can NOT interfere with God's plans for this life.

This could good lead to a good discussion so let me state my case (I tend to believe that God has ordained ALL that happens in this earth).

IF you believe that God is the Supreme Being who created the heavens and the earth (as I believe most Christians do) then you simply must believe that God created evil (as we know it). If God did not create "evil" where did it come from? Satan? Well, where did Satan come from?

If God is not at the very least "allowing evil" (and yes, Negrodamus, I am punking out here) then you would have to believe that Satan (representing evil) has been around as long as God has and was not created by Him…and if you follow that logic, then it would tend to give Lucifer a lot more power than we currently give him.

Here's the way I see it. God is all mighty and all powerful and has offered away of salvation through the death of Jesus on the cross. All I have to do is believe in Him and I will be saved. Part of the believing is accepting that He is God and I am not. I know a very limited amount about this world, about life, and I know even less about the Spiritual world, but I trust that God in heaven has things under control Things that might not make any sense to me are still going to be a part of God's master plan. I do not believe that Satan can frustrate the will of God in any way, therefore when I hear horrible stories of Murder, Rape, and Torture, I know that it is all part of God's plan. You can call me crazy if you want, but you're going to have to explain to me how someone can create EVERYTHING and yet not be responsible for the bad that happens.

And so I say, "Everything that happens in this world is ordained by God" (no punk out there).

But, just for argument sake, allow me to take a step back and cover the "allowed" portion. Even if we come up with a way to disprove that God "ordains" the evil in this world, we still have to address the issue of God "allowing" it to happen…I believe they call it "permissive will".

Once again, we have to start by acknowledging that God is the Supreme Being who is ALL POWERFULL. By being All Powerful it gives God the ability to do whatever He wants to with this earth (again, I believe most Christians would agree with this statement). Therefore, if God has the ability to put an end to evil, yet chooses not to, then He is at the very least allowing it to happen.

Imagine that you are sitting on a park bench one sunny morning, minding your own business, reading the local paper and imagining how much better college football would be if they had a playoff system. A woman in an electric yellow Oregon Ducks sweat suit jogs by. As you watch her continue down the path in front of you there suddenly appears another man who grabs here and wrestles her to the ground in an attempt to rape her. Instantly you realize that you are holding a gun, a knife, and a baseball bat, and that the rapist is completely unarmed and quite frankly not much of a man at all. You notice that it would be no problem at all for you to stop him, but instead you stand by quietly…allowing him to continue.

It would be my opinion that you are just as responsible for that rape as the rapist is.

And finally, if you look at the God of the Old Testament you will see a God that has a different set of moral values than we do today. If God were around today, directing His people to do the things they did in the OT, we would not like Him very much at all and would likely call Him evil. God constantly had the Israelites take over cities and kill "man, woman, child and oxen". Not cool.

Unless of course you understand that God knows better than you do.

This, of course, is just one man's opinion…and that one man has no formal Bible training whatsoever. Feel free to disagree…but if you do, watch out for Negrodamus, he might just put you in your place.

This comment offers great insight into Kenneth Copeland Ministries and why they are being investigated by the Senate Finance Committee:

Here's a letter from someone who's grandmother died believing in Kenneth Copland:

Dear Kenneth and Gloria Copeland,

If you don’t all ready know me I’m Christian Beach granddaughter of Bonnie Parker. The girl who had to watch her grandmother go threw so much pain for her trust in god through you. You didn’t help her by telling her not to go to the doctor. No you told her that the doctor was the work of the devil. Yes I remember some of the stuff from your shows and CD’s. My grandmother would put so much of her money in to checks and some as just cash, so much in fact that I can’t even recall exact amounts. How exactly much does your healing cost, because my grandmother paid with her money and her life? I watch your shows, listened to your CD’s at the same time watched my grandmother slowly and painfully be killed by your word not God’s word your word!!! You can do what you want and say what you want but you can never be forgiven by me or my family for what you did to us. Don’t want the money she sent you back. I just want you to feel the pain that I have felt day after day since she died. How does it make you feel to take a nine year olds grandmother from her? Now the next time you are taking money out of letters and not even reading the at all, think of what you have done to our family by not reading my grandmothers!!! So the next your are flying around in your $20000000 JET, That my grandmother paid with her life!!!

Wow. Someone's a little bitter. Christian probably should have gotten a couple of elders together and then went and talked to Kenneth Copeland, personally. That would have been the Christ-like thing to do. (sarcasm off)

And here's a letter from somone who worked in the KCM mailroom:

 There are about 50 people that do nothing but read the mail. It is an Operation of Mail Processing. When the letters were prayed over, it was done in bulk before they were ever opened and most of the time they were prayed over by a Mail Processing person, not a Prayer Minister as Kenneth claims. In answering your question, Kenneth and Gloria never saw your mother’s letters while she was writing them. After the mail is processed, it is kept in a bin for a while and then discarded into the Incinerator. The place where the mail is processed is far removed from where Kenneth and Gloria’s offices are as you probably remember when you toured KCM. KCM operates just like a business. If they didn’t have the Partners and Friends sending in their money, they wouldn’t exist. The people they have placed at the top of the organization (son, John Copeland is the CEO) have not hidden from the employees that everything is “ALL ABOUT THE PARTNERS”.

Can anyone tell me why in the world these people should NOT be paying taxes?

We get letters, lots and lots of letters:

My name is G.E., I am a recovering legalist.

I attended PBC from 1979-1981. I did not attend church at Bible Temple but I did end up in 1984 with a Bible Temple Affiliate/Franchise – Living Hope Fellowship, pastor Jess Strickland now in Aloha OR. After many years of trying to fit in and be part of the leadership team, I found myself rejected and very bitter and hurt. It took a long time to recover and I am still recovering, but I have found a place of grace in my walk with Jesus and in ministry. I eventually left Living Hope in 1993 and wandered for a bit and then found myself right back in the same system with another MFI church. After more hurt and abuse I almost did not make it through but thank God I have been free from the MFI "set man" pastoral system for about 8 years now. There are several things that helped me in breaking free and recovering and I am sure that you know these resources but I thought maybe if you wanted to recommend them on your blog it may help others.

The first is a couple of books 1. "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen. This book was a great help to me to understand that it was not my fault. 2. " Tired of Trying to Measure Up" by Jeff VanVonderen. For years I thought there was something wrong with me because I was not able to follow the program or measure up to the approval of the pastor.

The second are the teachings of Frank Viola of Present Testimony Ministry (www.ptmin.org ). I was given a booklet he wrote called "So who is your covering" and God used it for me to expose the whole pastoral covering deception and the fallacy of the "set man/one man pastor" principle that MFI churches teach and practice. His perspective and insight on leadership, church and especially home churches has been a blessing over the years.

The third and perhaps the greatest influence on my life is a relatively unknown author – Steve McVey ( www.gracewalk.org). Through his book "Grace Walk" I began my journey to shed the old doctrines of religious bondage and truly begin to discover and live in God's grace.

From time to time we have people stop by our blog here and ask some basic questions as to who we are and what we are doing. Recently, Scott, made this comment:

Who started this website? I'm just curious. Has City Bible Church become "all about the money"? Does pastor Frank really talk about tithing all the time? How do you know? How many times did you (the creator/creators) attend CBC? Thanks in advance for answering my questions.

Well Scott, here are the answers to your questions:

Who started this website?

Catalyst & Reformed Pope Morton

Has City Bible Church become "all about the money"?

I wouldn't say "ALL about the money", but prosperity (in a modern day American sense of the word) is very important to them.

Does pastor Frank really talk about tithing all the time?

I believe the current ratio is 1 in every 4 sermons is on giving money to the church (not necessarily on "tithing" but certainly on giving money to CBC). Remember, they speak on "Faith Harvest" every November through January, so there is ¼ of the year's sermons right there. Does that qualify as "all the time"?

How do you know?

The sermons are posted online and sadly, I listen to a large number of them.

How many times did you (the creator/creators) attend CBC?

Lets see, I personally attended BT/CBC from 1993-2003 so let me break this down.

10 years of weekly Sunday Morning sermons = 520 Sunday Services

10 years of weekly Sunday Evening sermons, I probably attended every other Sunday =  260 Sunday Evening Services

5 years of weekly Youth Group Sermons = 260 Wednesday Night Services

 4 years of Weekly Chapel during High School = 208 Monday or Friday Morning Services

7 years of bi-monthly cell group (formerly Life Group) meetings = 182 small group services.

3 Years of Summer Camp (1 full week and 2 half weeks…I was kicked out halfway through the last 2 years I attended camp) = 30 Camp Services

6 years of Winter Youth Conferences (First as Conquest then as Generation Unleashed) = 54 Conference Services

3 years of Presbytery Services = 20 Prophetic Services

and

10 years of "special" prayer services, conferences, dramatic productions, weddings, etc. = 50 services

For a grand total of 1,584 times that I have attended CBC…that, by the way, is enough times to attend one service every day for almost 4-1/2 years.

I am so embarrassed.

For further research on the subject click here, here, here, here, and here. You should also read all "Faith Harvest" posts, and finish by reading all the posts in the Pastor Hank and Sermons categories.

I hope I have been of some help.

joebib sent in this article for discussion last week. I've been so busy that I haven't had time to get it up until now (sorry). Here is what he had to say:

I came across this article about "world-famous" polygamist Warren Jeffs, and couldn't help but notice the similarities between all of the mind-control and intimidation that went on in his camp, and what takes place — though hopefully to a lesser degree — in many IC churches today.

There hasn't been a lot of blogging going on here lately, and I don't have much time now, but I thought I would share an email I recently received that touched my heart:

 In trying to find a friends, web address I stumbled across this. I use to go
to Rhema and Bible Temple and I know many of the names you mention.
I have to say that you are very bitter and I am sad for you. I'm wondering
what God will say to you when you stand before Him. I have a great peace at
night when all the lights are out and only He can see my heart. I feel sorry
for you.

 - Terri McNellis

The email subject line said : You are bitter. It's been such a long time since I last heard someone say I was bitter, I was begining to think this blog had lost all its power.  Thank you Terri, your kind words have restored my faith in the Christian Church.

Oh…and Terri, one last thing, a quote from Borat, "You will never get this, you will never get this, la la la, la la la".

There is a new Christian ministry that reaches out to the porn industry, and it's called XXXCHURCH. The "church" appears to be a twofold ministry: One, helping those who work in the porn industry and Two, helping those who struggle with pornography (which is rougly 95% of the male population).

A reader of this blog recently emailed me to share this about XXXChurch:

These guys came and spoke at our church today (Living Hope Church - we got out of the CBC bubble, in case you hadn't heard the good news!). They set up booths at the major porn conventions and handed out NT Bibles with covers that say "Jesus Loves Porn Stars". I love it. The guy who came today had a lot of good things to say.  

I questioned if guys would be really be able minister to porn stars at a porn convention, and she followed up with this:

They have girls working their booths, too. Not porn star looking ones, but girls. It's actually pretty interesting…they have one female team member that spends all day in the women's bathroom, because that's the only place the female porn stars can go to be away from the men, and they eat their lunch in there. She spends all day in there talking to the girls and sharing about God with them.

I've read through the XXXCHURCH material, and while it's somewhat graphic, it's also an honest discussion about pornography. Anyone who has ever been involved in a Men's ministry knows that pornography is the one thing that everyone (especially it seems, the pastors) struggles with, and yet, it's rarely discussed in practical terms. So this is probably a good thing.

Recently we received this email with the Subject Line: A real opponent of City Bible Church.

Hi There:

I stumbled into your blog because I was interested in what had happened to some of the latter rain churches and pastors I had been involved with up to 1980 ( of which CBC (aka Bible Temple) are the part of.  I began in the church of Leonard Fox in the 60's where I knew Frank Damazio when he first came to be a christian.  I have known Frank for close to 40 years and would  not trust him in any way shape or form ! I unfortunately graduated from PBC in 1972, but it took until 1980 for me to see how messed up this group was. Both Ken Malmin and Larry Asplund would not be at CBC without my influence and I deeply regret having put them in touch with such a messed up group of people.  It is good to see ( finally) that the abuses of CBC are getting a wide airing!  Keep up the good??   work!

I'm curious. If this guy thinks he is a "real opponent of City Bible Church" what does that make us?

We also received this email from Erica:

what denomination  is this church, could you please send me more information
because one of a church member invited me to go to your church  god bless
you

To which Catalyst replied:

This isn't really a church; it's just a blog.

-Justin

Good times. Good times.