A reader writes:

Have you guys heard/written anything about Living Hope Fellowship in Aloha, Oregon? The place is ripe with unreal, unbelievable religious abuse and inconsistencies. The pastor is a graduate of PBC and a proud member of MFI. Interestingly enough, he left MFI years ago and referred to the organization as "The Firm".
 
Now he subscribes to the same thinking and the bizarre happenings at that church could fill a book. The pastors have allowed their kids to take over and run the church, their theology is bizzare, they have covered up major sexual indiscretions, but defamed others for not paying their tithes consistently and the list goes on.
 
Just curious as I've not seen anything written on them and I cannot imagine there aren't scores of bitter ex-LHF'ers. Right now, people are leaving in spades.
 
Take care. You guys are awesome.

I'm posting this email for two reasons.

One, the writer called us awesome.

Two, the sentence "people are leaving in spades".

Sometimes I feel that readers of this blog consider themselves victims. And while I admit some people truly are vicitms of their church, the vast majority are only vicitms, because they never had the courage to leave the congregation. No one forces you to attend church.  You are always free to leave.

Now, I grew up in the church. So I understand the emotional ties one creates with the pastor and congregation. But when that emotion changes from a feeling of belonging to one of anger and bitterness, then you just need to leave. And you need to stop blaming others for your failure to act.

*Editors note: I do not verify the accuracy of the statements made in the letter above.

Here is a great response by Negrodamus to the following question by blog reader "Me"regarding True and False Gospel:

Me said:

Negrodamus, (great name btw)

As a matter of curiosity, and i mean this will all due respect, what Gospel were you preaching at CBC? And I request specifics because I know the Gospel I heard preached while I was there. I know and have had very personal conversations with Pastor Frank, Doug and Donna Lasit, Ken and Glenda Malmin, Lanny Hubbard, Asim Trent, Marc Estes, Jack Louman, Brian Dahne, and many many others. Also, while at PBC and CBC, I was also in leadership in Gen Church. I never heard any Gospel that I couldn't read in the Bible. So i earnestly ask what it was you were preaching, and if you feel as though you were taught that or somehow formed it on your own. Please if you've time, explain a bit more.

Negrodamus resonponds:

I'm glad you ask. Here's what I was preaching, a gospel of works. I don't know if I can keep it anymore simple. Hence, take one of Frank Damzio's newest books, say, "The Unshakable Life" http://www.citychristianpublishing.com/books/?isbn=1-59383-039-4, the comments from Frank read as following:

This book is written for those in the trenches of real life. It is written for those who experience challenges, surprises, disappointments, successes and failures that shake up their days. It is for those who are ready to build an unshakable life-a life that is anchored, immovable and indestructable. Join with the author as he develops each one of these Seven Declarations for an Unshakable Life, based on the unshakable Word of God: I will live life strong. I will love God's house. I will hold my head high. I will have an overflowing heart. I will turn to God at all times. I will walk on a level path. I will not lose heart.

Me, do you seee what's wrong with the premise here? The onus, the weight, the burden of living an unshakable life starts with you, not Christ. Look at how many times Frank says "I will", count them, it's seven. I will live, I will love, I will hold, I will have, I will turn, I will walk, I will not lose. Do you see that? It's all about I…I…I…I… The gospel always starts with Him…Him…Him…Him… The unshakable life is not found in a set of principles, it's found in a person, JC. Now of course, you could combat this by saying "Well, Frank does talk about Jesus in the book!" Of course he does, but only as an after thought. Christ is never the hero of the book, we are. In fact, they nicknamed Frank amongst his peers as the Porcupine Preacher because he was good at giving so many points and principles. I remember listening to those sermons back in the day like "wow, how in the hell did he find so many principles in that one passage???" He would take a biblical story like David and Goliath and teach on "how to face your giants?" He would say stuff like David didn't just have one stone, he had five other stones because David had brothers. I would sit there, clutching the pew in front of me totally mezmerized as I hung on to every point Frank made. Frank would say "do you know what those five stones represented?" I would think to myself "No, but whatever they are I need them to face down my giants!"
So Frank would go on point by point, he even had sub-points within the points and I would walk out of the domes that Sunday morning with a fresh commitment to living out those points. I think if you added it all up he gave something like 15 points that morning. Then I would go next week and there would be another 15 points if you included the sub-points and by the time I finished year one of listening to Frank's sermons I had something like 720 principles or points to cultivate in my life in order to have an unshakable, over-flowing, spirit-filled, set the atmosphere, leaving my past behind me, breakthrough, successfully achieving, financially providing, leadership developing, spiritual warfaring kind of life. And the list went on and on.

After a while I would be like "how in the world can I do all this????" Christianity became too exhausting, I wondered to myself "Where is the peace and rest that Chrsitianity offered?" I weighted and burdened the youth at CBC shoulders with principles and points that were impossible to keep. To put it simply, I burdened them with the law because I didn't get the point of the law. I used the law as a system of salvation. It became my savior. If I was keeping the law, the principles and the points then I assumed I was succeeding spiritually, but if I failed at any one of those 720 points Frank preached then I was crushed spiritually and emotionally. I didn't realize that I was saved from the law and yet saved for the law. I was saved from it in the sense that I can find my rest in Christ, my perfect life is found only in him. There is nothing I can do to get God to love me more and yet there is nothing I can do to get God to love me less. He loves me period. My role is to accept His acceptance of me. I am saved by grace and changed by grace. He met every point, every principle, every standard for me, so I can get off this treadmill of works, expending energy and yet ending up nowhere. And yet on the other hand not do away with the law because it is a good guide to life.

Now, back to Frank's David and Goliath point. If he, we and all the Christianas in that building would have seen the real hero of the story that fateful morning, we would have walk out liberated, not burdened because we would have looked to Him and not ourselves to defeat our enemies. Christ stood like David as our representative, he faced down our giants when we were cowering in the hills like Israel's army defeated by our foes and He and He alone stares down, faces down or better yet beats down our ultimate enemy-sin and death. This is the heart of the gospel, not some man-centered gospel that brings into focus us when we approach a biblical text, but rather the true gospel of the bible all brings into focus Him, period. If Christ is is not the hero, than we make Him merely a helper but not a savior.

We get emails, lots and lots of emails:

I just came across your blog, and find it fascinating.  As a former member of the City Church and Capital Christian Center, and a frequent visitor to CBC I had to send you these clips.
 
Meet "Pastor" Krist Wilde, the youth pastor at Capital Christian Center in Boise (Son of Senior Pastor Ken Wilde). He is the self-proclaimed best friend/cousin of Judah. He has spent his adult life trying to duplicate the life and ministry of JS.  In fact, in the first few minutes of the clip from April 2008, he mentions his jealousy of the fact that he is stuck preaching while Judah is attending this year's Master's Tournament watching Tiger Woods. (2:50 in the clip)
 
http://www.capitalchristian.com/Resources/MediaViewer.aspx?id=74&st=1
 
Krist's messages are marked by:
 
Large words he looks up in the thesaurus and uses in incorrect contexts

Lots of the same marriage/sex references Judah uses

The same wardrobe stylings and flat-ironed hair from the Judah playbook

Same long winded sermons filled with lots of fluff and no substance

You combine the lack of sincerity with the desperate attempt to appear cool, and frankly, I felt a little embarrassed for the guy.  

Great question from a reader:

Alright. So, I'm a transplant from California to Seattle. Let me tell you, I've had considerable trouble finding a church to join up here, largely due to many of the doctrinal issues I just read in your blog.  (Funny story: someone recommended City Bible as a church for me, and I googled them and found this site.) Fortunately, I grew up in a church that taught me about grace properly. My problem now is finding a church that will keep me honest and provide some nourishment without helping me become more self-righteous than I probably already am. Do you have any suggestions?

Do any of you Seattle readers have any ideas?

Responding to a great question from David about making friends at Portland Bible College, a reader writes:

I had a few but distant friends. Most of my peers are VERY sheltered in the church bubble and have no idea how to relate to newer Christians and especially those with a background like mine. The same people brag about their calling to the inner city and reaching out to the lost etc… Like good ol’ charismatics, its all about talk. I stuck to a small group. There was another person i opened up the most to. I didnt trust others. I couldnt relate to the Christian culture bubble. For crying out loud, i speak English not Christianese. And people make judgments and decide who to be friends with and who is worthy to talk to based on outward spiritual lingo, cuteness & clothes you wear.

I want to highlight this comment, because it's true.  The thing about spending all your time in Church and with Church friends and going to Christian concerts and wearing Christian t-shirts and worshipping your pastor, is that you totally lose your ability to relate to anyone that isn't Christian.  *cough* CULT *cough* So many Christians spend all their time in Church asking God for the ability to reach the "lost", and yet never make any actual attempt to reach anyone outside the church. Maybe the answer is a little less Church-time and a little more world-time. 

But we know why that doesn't happen. It's hard. It requires a level of vulnerability. And Christians, in my opinion, are by and large, some of the most insecure people I know.  Most are not strong enough to step outside the Church environment. So they go to Portland Bible College, and stay comfortable for four more years.

We recently received this email from a reader:

Do either of you know anything about Frank withdrawing his membership from MFI? Would that mean he'd be withdrawing his church as well? (If so, no doubt it has something to do with Bob MacGregor being Mr. Iverson's choice for the next MFI top dog.)

If Frank is withdrawing completely, I wonder if he's starting something of his own to replace it?

Can any of you verify this statement? Or is it just a rumor? If true, I think it's probably one of the few decisions by Frank that I actually commend. MFI is a pretty useless organization.

Below are two letters I received over the weekend from readers of the blog.

The first is from a reader who opposes the blog and wishes we would stop:

i just recieved this right now. i mean, i don't mean to sound like i'm hating or anything-because i'm not, but my youth was entirely saved because of his preachings at Youth For the Nations, and i truly believe that us as humans don't have the right to judge or criticize God's servants-only he alone can do that. some ppl from my church already thought that it was okay to criticize my pastor like that, and in result, they ended up leaving the church, causing half of the church to disappear. and i already prophecied over that over millions of times, and no one believed me-until then. now, it's like "what do we do? has God left us?" and it was all because one person in the church decided that they were better than he was, in almost every way. of course, God didn't leave us, but when you talk about people like that-especially God's servants-in public media or just in public period-it could really ruin people lives-the ones that were saved by his sermons. i just think that all of you should think twice before criticizing a man of God publicly

As you can tell from this email, the Lord has apparently forgotten how to use proper grammer and punctuation when sending out His message.

Here is a letter from a fan of the blog:

Justin,
Can't tell you enough how I appreciate your comments and general content on the City Business Church Website.  I recently discovered this treasure a couple of weeks ago and have been entertained, delighted, and enlightened. 
 
My family attended Bible Temple back in the early seventies.  Things happened, and my Mother returned (freshly divorced, and of course that brought on so many judgements and stupidities) with all of us teens in tow back to the Church in the latter half of the seventies.  I saw the Church slowly embrace what is now the "prosperity" doctrine. 
 
I just wanted to say that what you are doing is absolutely wonderful; your writing is succinct, clear, witty without rancor.  It's refreshing to read material from a truly honest and THINKING Christian, honest with himself, and courageous enough to write truth.
 
Thank you,

I tell you right now, when I run for President of the Beer Club, my slogan is going to be "Justin Morton: Witty without Rancor".

And you tell me, which email did you find most persuasive? The one from the Lord or the one written from the heart.

(I suppose I should add, I do believe that God speaks to people. But I also think that most people who think they are hearing from God are really just hearing their own selfish thoughts.)

The following is a great comment from blog reader Jeff Dahl: 

 Dear Friends,

I am writing from a heart that has been transformed from twenty years of bitterness that I have finally shed towards Frank Damazio and at some great cost indeed.

My name is Jeff Dahl and I used to attend PBC back in 1981-82. Recently my wife of 20 years has divorced me and my life has been turned on it's head. After now being separated 9.5 months and divorced 4.5, I came to the realization that my bitterness towards Pastor Frank, (who married us) was a key element in the destruction of my marriage.

I invite anyone to write to me @ jeff@tahtinen.org and feel free to forward this to anyone. I want to spread the message of MY FORGIVENESS experience. I have been stuck for so long. Many of us that god makes sensitive and creative fall into this pit, this clay, this manure. Lord Jesus cleanse each and every one of us that have ever been hurt and grace us with the ability to do as you do and lay your life down for us while we are yet in sin (and loving every minute of it). May you further your kingdom and let your power and glory be evident in your temple…..US!

Jeff Dahl

Thank you Jeff for your honesty and openness. Bitterness is a real killer and we must always be on guard to watch that our hearts do not become consumed by it.

Detox Church Group has this to say: 

Davie Said,

"I have found that dialogues on BLOGS are generally unproductive and unlikely to effect any change on either side of those ‘dialogues’. In fact, discussing in ‘abstract’ topics that are rooted in actual personal events and experiences tend to not be helpful."

What exactly is your expertise on blogging?

Contrary to your comment, this Blog has been one of the most helpful forums for those of us in our town who dared to disembark from an authoritarian Pastor Cult church. It helped us see that we weren’t the crazy ones, going against the status quo of what has become the Church today, that indeed there is a community of Christians who actively engage their minds as well as their spirits, and seek to know the meaning of the Scriptures.

If not for this blog, I personally may have given up on Christianity completely because 95% of what I had seen represented in the Christian community around me or if I ever glimpsed Christians on TV, proved to be (and still is) an embarrassment to me and I cringe to think I was a part of that. Not so much because of pride, although that could be lurking in me, but because it doesn’t echo the Spirit of Christ we see in the Bible. I could have easily walked away if what I was seeing was all there was going to be (i.e. Is this IT?? You’ve GOT to be kidding!). But the Blog, along with the healthy, non-dysfunctional, non-authoritarian, non-pastor cult church I am attending today with a few close friends and family, has helped me see that Jesus really IS who He represents Himself to be in the Bible.

I never wanted to give up on Christ. He’s the sane one, the beautiful one, the all-loving one who listens and really cares about the condition of my heart and life. Who I want to give up on are Posers who use His name to do strange and controlling things to the people they have been entrusted with. In fact, I’ve pretty much written those types off. I have no room in my life for them anymore. My friend said it best the other day that they aren’t on the same team as we are. They aren’t allies, comrades, brethren who are slightly tweaked in the wrong direction. Unfortunately, because of their evil and controlling behaviour, who they resemble most are the enemies of Christ.

We’ve individually come to the conclusion that the boundary line has to be drawn and these types are not our types and we don’t want to be associated with them ever again. There can be a forgiveness but forgiveness is no cause stupidity and letting the Takers take all again — some of these people are sociopaths cloaked in their Religiousness and most of the church is too gullible to even see it. And the world is sitting by watching God’s people being duped over and over again. Why would they want to come to Christ if that’s what is going to happen to them??

Thank GOD for these voices on the Blog and in the Normal Church who are helping undo the damage done. By pointing back to the simplicity of the scriptures and the grace of God and what Jesus accomplished on the cross, it reminds us not to return to slavery again (Gal 5:1). David Mackin’s comments have been extremely helpful as well as others who have gone through similar strangeness — in our case beginning with borderline abuse that grew into blatent abuse, but in some of their cases extreme abuse. Also, the HUMOR of some of the other Bloggers has been most helpful, even if it is sometimes irreverant, because it lightens us up and helps us not take ourselves quite so seriously.

 Thank you Detox…we greatly appreciate your comments.

A public service announcement from Craig (www.doctrinetalk.com): 

When John the Baptist was baptizing people, they asked him what they need to do to be saved. He told them to repent (very important part) and if you have 2 cloaks, to give one to someone who doesn’t have one. Basically, you don’t need two, so give it to someone who has none.

Now what is preached by the prosperity camp is, go get a bunch of cloaks, and give one out of ten away. If you are really spiritual, you will give away 3 or 4…but keep the best for yourself, because that’s why Jesus died on the cross…so we can partake in the blessings of Abraham’s covenant.

Does that make sense? Can you see how what is preached at these churches just 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Jesus said to not give any thought to what we will eat or what we’ll wear because that’s what the heathen do, and Paul said with food and clothing let that be enough? They didn’t encourage us to go after blessings so we can bless others, they encouraged us to bless with what we already have, even if we only have 2 cloaks.

Craig, thank you for this. It's perfect.