We get letters, lots and lots of letters:

My name is G.E., I am a recovering legalist.

I attended PBC from 1979-1981. I did not attend church at Bible Temple but I did end up in 1984 with a Bible Temple Affiliate/Franchise – Living Hope Fellowship, pastor Jess Strickland now in Aloha OR. After many years of trying to fit in and be part of the leadership team, I found myself rejected and very bitter and hurt. It took a long time to recover and I am still recovering, but I have found a place of grace in my walk with Jesus and in ministry. I eventually left Living Hope in 1993 and wandered for a bit and then found myself right back in the same system with another MFI church. After more hurt and abuse I almost did not make it through but thank God I have been free from the MFI "set man" pastoral system for about 8 years now. There are several things that helped me in breaking free and recovering and I am sure that you know these resources but I thought maybe if you wanted to recommend them on your blog it may help others.

The first is a couple of books 1. "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen. This book was a great help to me to understand that it was not my fault. 2. " Tired of Trying to Measure Up" by Jeff VanVonderen. For years I thought there was something wrong with me because I was not able to follow the program or measure up to the approval of the pastor.

The second are the teachings of Frank Viola of Present Testimony Ministry (www.ptmin.org ). I was given a booklet he wrote called "So who is your covering" and God used it for me to expose the whole pastoral covering deception and the fallacy of the "set man/one man pastor" principle that MFI churches teach and practice. His perspective and insight on leadership, church and especially home churches has been a blessing over the years.

The third and perhaps the greatest influence on my life is a relatively unknown author – Steve McVey ( www.gracewalk.org). Through his book "Grace Walk" I began my journey to shed the old doctrines of religious bondage and truly begin to discover and live in God's grace.

From time to time we have people stop by our blog here and ask some basic questions as to who we are and what we are doing. Recently, Scott, made this comment:

Who started this website? I'm just curious. Has City Bible Church become "all about the money"? Does pastor Frank really talk about tithing all the time? How do you know? How many times did you (the creator/creators) attend CBC? Thanks in advance for answering my questions.

Well Scott, here are the answers to your questions:

Who started this website?

Catalyst & Reformed Pope Morton

Has City Bible Church become "all about the money"?

I wouldn't say "ALL about the money", but prosperity (in a modern day American sense of the word) is very important to them.

Does pastor Frank really talk about tithing all the time?

I believe the current ratio is 1 in every 4 sermons is on giving money to the church (not necessarily on "tithing" but certainly on giving money to CBC). Remember, they speak on "Faith Harvest" every November through January, so there is ¼ of the year's sermons right there. Does that qualify as "all the time"?

How do you know?

The sermons are posted online and sadly, I listen to a large number of them.

How many times did you (the creator/creators) attend CBC?

Lets see, I personally attended BT/CBC from 1993-2003 so let me break this down.

10 years of weekly Sunday Morning sermons = 520 Sunday Services

10 years of weekly Sunday Evening sermons, I probably attended every other Sunday =  260 Sunday Evening Services

5 years of weekly Youth Group Sermons = 260 Wednesday Night Services

 4 years of Weekly Chapel during High School = 208 Monday or Friday Morning Services

7 years of bi-monthly cell group (formerly Life Group) meetings = 182 small group services.

3 Years of Summer Camp (1 full week and 2 half weeks…I was kicked out halfway through the last 2 years I attended camp) = 30 Camp Services

6 years of Winter Youth Conferences (First as Conquest then as Generation Unleashed) = 54 Conference Services

3 years of Presbytery Services = 20 Prophetic Services

and

10 years of "special" prayer services, conferences, dramatic productions, weddings, etc. = 50 services

For a grand total of 1,584 times that I have attended CBC…that, by the way, is enough times to attend one service every day for almost 4-1/2 years.

I am so embarrassed.

For further research on the subject click here, here, here, here, and here. You should also read all "Faith Harvest" posts, and finish by reading all the posts in the Pastor Hank and Sermons categories.

I hope I have been of some help.

joebib sent in this article for discussion last week. I've been so busy that I haven't had time to get it up until now (sorry). Here is what he had to say:

I came across this article about "world-famous" polygamist Warren Jeffs, and couldn't help but notice the similarities between all of the mind-control and intimidation that went on in his camp, and what takes place — though hopefully to a lesser degree — in many IC churches today.

There hasn't been a lot of blogging going on here lately, and I don't have much time now, but I thought I would share an email I recently received that touched my heart:

 In trying to find a friends, web address I stumbled across this. I use to go
to Rhema and Bible Temple and I know many of the names you mention.
I have to say that you are very bitter and I am sad for you. I'm wondering
what God will say to you when you stand before Him. I have a great peace at
night when all the lights are out and only He can see my heart. I feel sorry
for you.

 - Terri McNellis

The email subject line said : You are bitter. It's been such a long time since I last heard someone say I was bitter, I was begining to think this blog had lost all its power.  Thank you Terri, your kind words have restored my faith in the Christian Church.

Oh…and Terri, one last thing, a quote from Borat, "You will never get this, you will never get this, la la la, la la la".

There is a new Christian ministry that reaches out to the porn industry, and it's called XXXCHURCH. The "church" appears to be a twofold ministry: One, helping those who work in the porn industry and Two, helping those who struggle with pornography (which is rougly 95% of the male population).

A reader of this blog recently emailed me to share this about XXXChurch:

These guys came and spoke at our church today (Living Hope Church - we got out of the CBC bubble, in case you hadn't heard the good news!). They set up booths at the major porn conventions and handed out NT Bibles with covers that say "Jesus Loves Porn Stars". I love it. The guy who came today had a lot of good things to say.  

I questioned if guys would be really be able minister to porn stars at a porn convention, and she followed up with this:

They have girls working their booths, too. Not porn star looking ones, but girls. It's actually pretty interesting…they have one female team member that spends all day in the women's bathroom, because that's the only place the female porn stars can go to be away from the men, and they eat their lunch in there. She spends all day in there talking to the girls and sharing about God with them.

I've read through the XXXCHURCH material, and while it's somewhat graphic, it's also an honest discussion about pornography. Anyone who has ever been involved in a Men's ministry knows that pornography is the one thing that everyone (especially it seems, the pastors) struggles with, and yet, it's rarely discussed in practical terms. So this is probably a good thing.

Recently we received this email with the Subject Line: A real opponent of City Bible Church.

Hi There:

I stumbled into your blog because I was interested in what had happened to some of the latter rain churches and pastors I had been involved with up to 1980 ( of which CBC (aka Bible Temple) are the part of.  I began in the church of Leonard Fox in the 60's where I knew Frank Damazio when he first came to be a christian.  I have known Frank for close to 40 years and would  not trust him in any way shape or form ! I unfortunately graduated from PBC in 1972, but it took until 1980 for me to see how messed up this group was. Both Ken Malmin and Larry Asplund would not be at CBC without my influence and I deeply regret having put them in touch with such a messed up group of people.  It is good to see ( finally) that the abuses of CBC are getting a wide airing!  Keep up the good??   work!

I'm curious. If this guy thinks he is a "real opponent of City Bible Church" what does that make us?

We also received this email from Erica:

what denomination  is this church, could you please send me more information
because one of a church member invited me to go to your church  god bless
you

To which Catalyst replied:

This isn't really a church; it's just a blog.

-Justin

Good times. Good times.

From FormerACCmember:

Is the TRUE Gospel message given during most MFI altar calls

I wonder about this. The general understanding most of us have (I'm guessing) of the Gospel is:

1. You are a sinner and you fall short of God's standards…you are under His Wrath.

2. There's no way you can ever be "good enough" through doing good works to earn God's favor. There is no way that the good things you do could ever outweigh the bad enough to "tip the scale" in your favor.

3. You EARN punishment for your sins (Wages of sin is DEATH).

4. Your payment for your sin is death…eternal separation from God in hell.

5. The GOOD news: Jesus, God in human flesh, paid the penalty of your sin by dying on the cross.

6. Furthermore, he conquered death by his resurrection from the grave.

7. If you accept what He did on the cross, receive Him as your Savior, and repent (have a change of mind and a willingness to turn from) your sins, you will be saved from the penalty of death and will live forever in the glorious place prepared for you with Him in Heaven. It doesn't mean you will be perfect here on earth. You will still mess up, and He forgives you because His blood covers ALL your sin!

So, Havis responded (by email) to a comment he recieved from Craig (I don't think he realized that it actually went to us and not Craig but whatever). This is what he has to say. For the record, I have not read it yet but it looks like he is trying to defend the tithe (I hope he does a good job). I'm going to bed now and tomorrow I will read it and let you know what i think. 

Craig:

You are right it is unchristlike for me to make those off the cuff remarks and they will cease immediately.   I do not care a whole lot what these non tithing bloggers think of me.   I do care for the wonderful ministries of PBC, CBC, MFI and Atlanta City Church.    For the future, I will refrain from making off the cuff remarks.

Gen 9-14 God continued to Abraham, "And you: You will honor my covenant, you and your descendants, generation after generation. This is the covenant that you are to honor, the covenant that pulls in all your descendants: Circumcise every male. Circumcise by cutting off the foreskin of the penis; it will be the sign of the covenant between us. Every male baby will be circumcised when he is eight days old, generation after generationâ€"this includes house-born slaves and slaves bought from outsiders who are not blood kin. Make sure you circumcise both your own children and anyone brought in from the outside. That way my covenant will be cut into your body, a permanent mark of my permanent covenant. An uncircumcised male, one who has not had the foreskin of his penis cut off, will be cut off from his peopleâ€"he has broken my covenant."

Abraham is a precursor not only for his natural seed but also for his spiritual seed.

The Messae:  Gal 3:8  A will, earlier ratified by God, is not annulled by an addendum attached 430 years later, thereby negating the promise of the will. No, this addendum, with its instructions and regulations, has nothing to do with the promised inheritance in the will.

Gal 3:28 & 29   In Christ's family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal. That is, we are all in a common relationship with Jesus Christ. Also, since you are Christ's family, then you are Abraham's famous "descendant," heirs according to the covenant promises.

Eph 2: 11.  Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)– 12.  remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13.  But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14.  For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15.  by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

What is ment by foreigners to the covenants of promise

Forget about the law and look at tithing from a covenant standpoint. Tithing was always a part of Abraham's Covenant relationsghip with God and he pased it on to his seed

Ge 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

If the tithe of Abrahan to Melchizedek was a single incident and it was never to be repeated how did Jacob the grandson of Abraham come the the knowlwdge of tithing.

As for your question concerning Circumcision

Quoting Craig: My question is, if we are not required to circumcise and perform animal sacrifices (like Abraham did for His faith covenant 400 years before the law), why would we continue with the tithe?

We are not require to sacrifice animals because Jesus fulfilled the law of animal sacrifice.  He was the one time perfect sacrifice.

Ge 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Both tithing and circumcision do not have their roots in the law but in the everlasting covenant.

Circuncision is a N T truth if you understand that the O T act of physical circumcision was Abraham's precursor for N T heart circumcision.

Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

According to Paul in I Collosians 2:10.  and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:
11.  in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
12.  having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

The covenant of circumcision has been invoked upon us through the act of water baptism.  (circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, having been buried with him in baptism,  also raised with him through faith.

If you are sincere in receiving the truth of tithing you must look at the covenants of promiase and not at the law.

The real issue in the O T was not penile circumcision but heart circuncison. It is the forehin of the heart that separates us from God.
Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

De 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
De 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Both tithing and circumcision are not law issues the are covenant issues.

Here is a great story from Doug Broke My Leg:

 Free Indeed said:

Did Doug really break your leg (I only ask because I’m familiar with his wild “stories”)???

Hahaha. Did Doug break my leg? I’ll let you decide.
2-3 years ago while meeting with Jack Louman to get some counsel in an area I was having trouble in, Jack said he felt that I had written off Doug too quickly (having only tried to get together with him for a couple months). He said if I would agree to trying again, he’d call Doug and make sure he was receptive.

Amazingly Doug called me not fifteen minutes later and we set up a time to meet in his office.

Those who’ve been down this road know the formula. I started off by apologizing for some attitudes I’d had, and for general non-submission in some things he was flat wrong about.

He very graciously forgave me.

I brought up some specific times he had offended me, and that had ended up causing my attitude toward him.

He told me why I was wrong for being offended.

But all was not lost. Doug said he was committed to being my pastor (perhaps my meeting with Jack rather than him was the issue?) but that he had an analogy he wanted to walk me through.

“What,” said Doug, “does the shepherd do when the sheep runs off?”

“uhm, go after it?” I replied.

“right…. but if she sheep runs off again. Then what does the shepherd do?”

“uhm, goes after it again?

Doug starts to get frustrated:
“Well, right. But you’re not getting it. What does the shepherd do if the sheep keeps running off?”

Me very confused at this point:
“Uhm, isn’t the job of the shepherd to go after lost sheep? I don’t know what you’re trying to get me to say!”

Doug, realizing that he’s going to have to spell it out, launches into a description of his pastoring style:
“You see, if a shepherd has a stubborn sheep that keeps running off, he breaks its leg, and then carries it around on his back until the sheep is used to being with him. After the leg is healed, then the sheep and the shepherd have a bond and the sheep will stay close by. That’s what I want to do with you, if you’re willing to submit. I want to ‘break your leg’ and carry you.”

I remember sitting there just stunned. I had so many things I wanted to ask him, but I knew every single question would have offended him somehow. Since my goal was reconciliation, I knew that I had to check my desire to argue. Beside we were all taught to submit right? At that point I still had a lot of Kool-Aid in my system; so like a good drone sheep I agreed to have my leg broken and asked what he wanted to do next.

It turns out that the “being carried on his back” part involved getting together once a week. We set the time and place. He showed up the first time and we had a lovely chat. He stood me up without calling every time after that. I think I remember showing up two or three times, just to make sure I was genuine in my efforts. Then it was back to meeting with Jack.

Perhaps a better name for myself would be “Doug Broke My Leg And Left Me In The Bushes”

Because there is nothing I love more than bringing another church into our circle of fun, here is a question from a new reader:

We have a young man interested in attending the internship at Atlanta City Church (www.atlantacitychurch.com) . We oppose and pray that he makes a different choice. Would love to hear from anyone with experience at ACC.

I am of the same mindset as you all, which is how I found this website in the first place. This is scary business. Do you all see a lot of marrying within the interns and church congregation? It seems a little incestuous!

Where are the Atlanta folks??! Any comments on the leadership there?

I know JP has made a few observations about Pastor Rick Snow. Anyone else?