Even though I have several more articles burning to be posted on this blog right away, I have realized that I first need to finish my book against the Mandatory Tithe. One of the things that I have found very difficult if not impossible for me on this blog is not to carry on extended conversations with those who choose to interact with the subject matter I post. Posting articles as well as conversing about them can involve much time.

I have been researching this book for several years now, and I feel that I must focus exclusively on it until I get it published. I want to thank the many others who have posted their thoughts about the tithe on this blog, too. All of the comments have been very enlightening. 

I will return to the blog when copies of my book are available. Please forgive me if I have left any topic or conversation too open-ended. That was not my intention. Blessings to all!

Galatians 5:1,

David  

Recently, I posted an article entitled, “The 3 Dirty Words of a Mega Church Pastor.” Someone brought my article to the attention of the pastor I named in it, i.e., Pastor Ted Roberts of East Hill Family Church (Gresham, Oregon). Pastor Ted posted a strong disagreement to my article with the words, "I challenge you to post this response and speak with me directly."  Ted’s response had already been posted, and I happily met with him on May 22. I brought a very good friend to the appointment with me.  Here is what happened:

1-Ted told me that he “had no doubt” that what I posted was accurate, as far as his former church employee understood him to have said about platform protocol. Ted believed that his former church employee, Will (name changed) had told me that he understood Ted to have forbidden the 3 words "sin, hell and repentance" from being spoken from the platform at East Hill Family Church.  
 
2-Notwithstanding, Ted further explained that even though Will had understood him in this way, that as the senior pastor of East Hill, Ted had never forbad the words "sin, hell or repentance" from the church platform. He did want everyone on the platform, however, to have tears in their eyes when/if they were ever to use the word “hell” – “like Jesus did,” Ted said.  
 
3-Furthermore, Ted explained that he personally believed in using the words "sin, hell and repentance" both theologically as well as ministerially. Ministerially, Ted is now traveling with his book and seminar, Pure Desire, calling Christians to repent from sexual sins so that, as Ted explained: true revival might come to the Church.  

 
4-The mistake I made, as Ted pointed out to me, was that I posted what Will had understood Ted to have said without first running it by Ted. I did this because Will was a very credible source to me, but this was a mistake in judgment. I sincerely apologized to Ted, and he gladly received my apology and we parted on very good terms. I also apologize to this blogging community.

  
5-For clarification purposes, before I composed this follow-up article, I asked Ted whether he ever had had a platform policy that forbad certain language being used in the church services. He wrote back to me these words:
 
“Once again, I cannot comment about what a 'former staff member' may have said I said. I just know I didn't put any overt or implied restrictions on sharing from the pulpit other that it be truth (biblical-practical truth) expressed with compassion and grace. I don't communicate that clearly at times and we are all in desperate need of a Savior every single day of our lives—so I have long ago stopped trying to get everyone one to fully understand me. I am just trying to love and help get as many folks as I can get healed. You don't have to run your comments past me. I am sure you will communicate as clearly and truthfully as you possibly can. In His Love, Ted”  

6-I spoke with another former East Hill Family Church employee, Craig (name changed), who worked with Ted for many years. Craig told me this about “The 3 Dirty Words…”: “The short answer is there was no implicit directive…. but also it is important to acknowledge what I would call (un-written but strongly implied "no-go" language).” Surprisingly, Craig also wrote, “Much of this actually originated with me.”
 
7-Ted shared with me that there was a very redemptive event that came out of the posting of my article. It was the fact that he and another estranged brother got together and found reconciliation in Christ. When my friend and I heard this, we gave God thanks.
 
I was very impressed with how Ted came onto the blog using his real name and challenged my article. This gave me the opportunity in Part 2 to give the other necessary side of the story. I was also very impressed with Ted during our meeting. He was gracious, honest, respectful and kind both to us as well as to Will. At the end of the appointment, all of us prayed together.

God brought much unexpected good from my first article. Not only did it create the opportunity for Ted to reconcile with a person who had sadly been estranged from him, I, a City Business Church (CBC) blogger who has come out very strongly against some senior pastors for operating like “pastor-kings,” am now posting a very positive report about Pastor Ted from my own meeting with him.   

Maybe this can be a beginning of reconciliation between some CBC bloggers and pastors. My hope is that more CBC bloggers would admit when they do not fairly give both sides to a story. I pray that more pastors would follow Ted’s example by coming onto the blog using their real names inviting us to meetings of deeper understanding and reconciliation. 

P.S. I will be taking a sabbatical from this blog in order to finish my book against The Mandatory Tithe. I will let you know when copies are available. Blessings to all!

Galatians 5:1,

David  

Me wrote: "David, honestly, your statement about Mal. 3:8-12, whether or not it was written to believers implies that God somehow changed His idea of tithing and blessing between now and then. Simply untrue."

Me, As a counselor I thought that you would know that when a patient simply makes an assertion, it does not make it true. Your assertion "Simply untrue" is just such a statement. If you would take the time to research the tithe on this blog, you will find many reasons given against the Mandatory Tithe being required to receive God's blessings. In my view, we need you to leave assertionism behind and come forward with well-interpreted Scripture.

Me wrote:"There's also the fact that Pastor Frank Damazio has completed his PhD work at ORU, which holds the highest accreditation available to a school of theology in the states…"

Me, It is true that FD just received a degree from ORU. ORU's Office of Verifications just informed me that he earned a 3.95 GPA while doing this, too. Good job! At the same time, he did not earn a Ph.D. degree as you claimed; he earned a Doctor of Ministry degree, a degree which is far less academic and much more practical than the typical Ph.D. degree, as joebib has previously pointed out on this blog.

Me wrote: "As far as I know, you've no such credentials, and therefore wouldn't really be a credible source for such criticisms as you so flippantly distribute on this site."

Me, I do not make my posts "flippantly" on this blog. It is true, however, that I do not hold a degree beyond a Bachelors of Religion. At the same time, I do not base anyone's final credibility on the letters after their name. I base my assessment on what they say and the way that they document what they say. I have a friend, as just one example, who does not have a doctorate but is published in learned journals and who has read every article in The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible 4 vol. set, along with 1-2 solid commentaries on every book of the Bible, and much more. On the flip side, there are many atheists with advanced degrees who reject both God and Jesus Christ…

I would prefer you to dialogue with me about my content, sources and hermeneutics rather than dismissing so easily what I say because I don't have an advanced degree.

Me wrote: "After all, he's [David] spent so many hours of his life and time on this earth bashing…churches and pastors with cancer [Pastor Wendell Smith]."

Me, If I understand you correctly, you are saying that because Wendell Smith has cancer, than I should not criticize his teachings. Is this right? As a counselor, if you'll think about it, I think that you will recognize what you just said to me as a good example of pure guilt manipulation: don't criticize Wendell Smith because he has cancer. Do you actually encourage your patients to use guilt to manipulate others?

Where does the Bible say that because someone is sick that others should not disagree with their teachings? I don't know of any verse supporting that idea.

I have prayed, along with many others, that God would heal Wendell, but just because he may continue being sick, does not mean that God is giving him, or any other person with an unfortunate sickness, a license to teach whatever they want and to use the Bible or the gospel of Jesus Christ in whatever way they choose.

PC said: "I have to say that this entire site is the most pathetic things I’ve ever seen." 

PC, Have you honestly read this entire site? (I know I haven’t yet.) If not, how can you accurately say anything disparaging about “this entire site?” 

PC said: "It is a shame that some people study the scriptures not out of a heart to seek God but out of a heart to destroy the church." 

PC, How can you claim to know other people's motives for studying the Bible? We are seeking God by discussing if what we have been taught by pastors is truly what the Bible says; is that wrong? Did not Paul commend the Bereans for "searching the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so?"…even if it implied that they would question the very teachings that Paul was proclaiming?! 

PC said: " I’ve read and also heard first hand the statements by Pastor Wendell that were noted in this blog and I totally agree." 

PC, I'm happy that you are telling me that I accurately quoted Pastor Wendell; that he is consistent with the contents of his book when he gets into the pulpit; and that you probably attend his church. 

More importantly, however, is the question: Have you read what this site says about the Prosperity Doctrine or about the Mandatory Tithe so that you can intelligently discuss it with us and not hide behind your pastor? (If you want to, go to the right column on this page and click onto these topics.) 

PC said: "If you don’t want the blessing that comes from being faithful with your finances to God…" 

PC, I do want the blessing that comes from being faithful with my finances and that is why I am seeking better to understand the Scriptures so that I can please my Father. In my view, your comment is impudent, judgmental and cheap: it gives no reason for your statement except the vague implication that you probably have Malachi 3:8-12 in mind, which was not written to Christians. 

Pardon me for saying this but you remind me of myself after I graduated from Portland Bible College in 1974: I believed everything I had been taught was beyond question and I thought that I understood the Bible and the world "perfectly." Please come out of your naïve cocoon nestled safely behind your pastor. We invite you to join in true dialogue with us. 

PC said: "…then fine but don’t destroy the men and women of God…" 

PC, Have you ever read a book review, a movie review or the editorial page of a newspaper? The real world is real people quoting each other and asking questions and bringing honest critiques and opinions to the table (hopefully with a desire for the truth and a spirit of respect). 

I agree that not everything on this blog is shared with the utmost respect, but nothing is perfect including pastors in the pulpit and the religious business franchises that they attempt to build. The apostle Paul named names when he thought that someone had backslidden into false teaching. 

Have you read Pastor Wendell's book, Prosperity with a Purpose? If not, please read it, and then may I suggest that you read my review of his book which you will find on this blog, and then tell me if you think I was fair in my evaluation.  

I believe that genuine dialogue is an essential part of Christian education – not simply allowing ourselves to be blindly indoctrinated by the church pulpit or classroom podium. Paul told the Romans in 14, “Let each man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” That means that he was requiring members of the church to think and evaluate for themselves. 

Generally speaking, please realize that even though all true Christians believe that Jesus is Lord, in my view, the churches in which genuine dialogue on the non-essentials of the faith is actively quashed are places where pastors have perverted the church from a learning community into either a cult or a moneymaking business or both.

 Just stop and think about it for a minute: Why would the leaders of a cult or a moneymaking church franchise quash all questions toward its senior leadership and its teachings?  

PC said: "…who are pursuing the life and calling God has for them…" 

PC, My friend, we are seeking to know the ways of God and the general will of Jesus Christ for leaders and Christians alike. There are NT principles that apply to Pastor Wendell as well as to all of us. Believers need to hold each other accountable to being faithful to the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. Your statement sounds very defensive to me like "Go away! Leave my pastor alone!" I'm sorry, we're not going away and we're not going to leave Pastor Wendell, or any other leader alone, who we feel is deceiving the Body of Christ. We might be wrong in our concern, but right now, this is what we feel the NT teaches.   

I do hope that we hear from you again. I hope that you didn't visit us just to shoot emotion-based bullets that made you feel that you were doing your Christian duty to defend your pastor and then disappear under a pew at The City Church. 

My own childhood spirit is making this request of you: "Come out, come out, wherever you are and let's play for real!" 

Jesus criticizes the pastor/leaders of his day. Among other things, he describes them as false prophets (Mt. 7:15-20), false wonder workers (Mt. 7:21-23; Mt. 12:38-42), false builders (Mt. 7:24-27) and false teachers (Mt. 12:33-37). He tells his followers that they can recognize these false ministries “by their fruits” (Mt. 7:16, 20; 12:33). What did Jesus mean by the phrase, “by their fruits?” 

False prophets pretend to be sheep and/or shepherds in order to get closer to their prey. When they get close enough to the sheep, they ensnare them and then eat them to enrich themselves. The nature of wolves is to live off of eating sheep. As long as they are wolves, they cannot change their sheep-eating nature. Jesus subtly contrasts the wolf nature with the nature of grape vines and fig trees that yield their fruit freely to any passer-by. Wolves are sheep hunters and killers. Grape vines and fig trees are givers and nourishers. 

False wonder-workers operate in the gifts of the Spirit. They use the name of Jesus to prophesy, cast out demons, heal the sick and do many mighty supernatural signs. Outwardly, God’s people only see attention-getting, jaw-dropping phenomena. The problem, however, is that what the people do not see is the life of lawlessness that they live when off stage. 

False builders erect large buildings, attract huge crowds and grow sizable church organizations and institutions. What they build on the outside attracts much public attention and even influences others to follow their example. The hidden danger, however, is that they have built their entire ministry on a faulty foundation: They encourage the people to come every week to hear the words of Jesus (act as an audience), but they do not insist that the people do the words of Jesus (live as disciples). Eventually, what they have built falls because they have not discipled the people properly on how to weather the inevitable storms of life through demonstrating and insisting that they literally put into practice everything that Jesus tells his disciples to do. 

False teachers speak “evil words,” i.e., they promote unbiblical doctrines against the true gospel of Jesus Christ. These false doctrines proceed out of their flesh rather than the Spirit. In this sense, what they teach comes from the wrong source: it comes forth as the “offspring of snakes” rather than the offspring of God. 

(Who or what have you seen in the church world today that might fit the description of a false prophet, a false wonder-worker, a false builder or a false teacher? By what “fruits” are you recognizing them?)

Will (name changed) attended East Hill Foursquare Church (a mega-church in Gresham, Oregon) for many years. He was there during the days of Jerry Cooke, the pastor who was known for sitting down casually on a stool to preach and before the recent retirement of senior pastor, Ted Roberts, author of, Pure Desire. 

Will was a good counselor and blessed many people with his class called, “New Images.” Approx. 2 years before he passed on, I spoke with him over the phone about his long experience at East Hill Church. This is part of what he told me: 

Ted Roberts, the senior pastor of East Hill Church at the time, forbad anyone to use three specific words from the pulpit or the platform of the church. The forbidden words were: “sin,” “hell,” and “repentance.” If anyone would ever slip and use any of these words publicly, the pastor would have a talk with him/her in his office. 

When the pastor traveled for ministry out of town, Ted would allow Will to preach. Kind of for the fun of it, Will told me that he would purposely let one or more of the pastor’s forbidden words slip out of my mouth just to see what would happen. Each time, his mentioning of one or more of the pastor’s forbidden words would get back to him after he returned home, and the pastor would call him into his office and confront him about it. 

This happened so many times, that finally, Will had to resign his church staff position. He just could not see how a church could stay true to the gospel of Jesus Christ or the Bible without ever mentioning the words “sin,” “hell,” or “repentance” from the pulpit. 

P.S. Several years ago, Ted Roberts told a Saturday morning class of which I (DM) was a part that the church growth experts were recommending that in order to get more non-churched people to attend church on Sunday mornings, that pastors should cut out their worship services entirely! Ted told the class that he was unwilling to go that far. 

Ted Roberts has fairly recently turned the pastoring of East Hill Church over to his son-in-law, Jason Albelo, the son of the director of East Hill Adult Education, Gil Albelo. 

Note: Please see "The 3 Dirty Words of a Mega Church Pastor" Part 2 for my follow-up conversation with Ted.  

A couple of months ago I heard the following on the Christian radio station 1330 AM (Portland, OR):   

~Christians should not be involved with practicing Yoga. There really should not be a “Christian” version of Yoga practiced in the churches. Not only could Christians be affected by the pagan spirits behind this ancient art, God would not be pleased for Christians to put their bodies into postures that are used in India and other pagan countries as postures to worship their gods and goddesses.~ 

When I heard this, I felt sorry for the speakers. Little doubt, they thought that they were warning God’s people from a spiritual danger that might hurt their walk with God. Instead, what I heard was a very ignorant form of religious legalism. 

The ancient Babylonians used to raise their hands to their chief god, Marduk, and his consort Sarpanitu just like the ancient Israelites used to lift their hands to praise their God, Yahweh. Because the Israelites used the same bodily expression, as did these idol-worshippers, does it mean that they were worshipping Marduk instead of Yahweh? 

In ancient pagan fertility rites that involved sacred prostitution, it would be very reasonable to surmise that the priests and priestesses who copulated in the pagan temples with the belief that thereby they would be guaranteeing good harvests that year for their people, were using the same bodily positions that Spirit-filled couples use to consummate their godly marriage vows. Do such similar bodily postures relating to sexuality mean that Christian couples are performing acts of sacred prostitution when they make love?    

The fact that Christians who practice Yoga for exercise might be putting their bodies into the same bodily postures as pagan worshippers, in my view, does not mean that Christians are worshipping the same gods or that there is an evil spirit involved in certain bodily positions. God looks upon the position of the heart - not the position of the body. 

If well-intentioned ministers want to warn believers of the spiritual dangers of the Orient, they need to dig much deeper. One might be amazed at how a few good Yoga exercises would go a long ways in helping the over-weight preachers we see on cable TV every day to lose a few pounds and thus be a better testimony of the Christian faith – a faith that holds that the physical body is a temple of the Holy Spirit - no matter what form it takes.

The apostles of Christ warn us that self-deception is a very real possibility even for Christians (Galatians 6:3,7; James 1:16,26; I Timothy 2:14; 2 Timothy 3:13). What is self-deception? How can a true believer actually be deceived? In our discussions of the Prosperity Doctrine and the Mandatory Tithe, I have noticed that both sides of these issues will, at times, accuse the other side of "being deceived." Here is a case in point: 

Both Craig and C.T.P. left The City Church in Kirkland, WA where Wendell & Gini Smith are the senior pastors.  When asked by Serj why they left, they made the following comments:  

“It’s not about the cars or houses, it’s about deception and manipulation for the end result of fleecing the flock. False doctrine caused me to leave the church…Paul told Timothy to watch his doctrine closely because it would save his soul and those who hear him. Why do people who take doctrine seriously leave that church? You do the math.” (Craig, City Business Church blog, July 21st, 2007 at 12:41 am) 

“My reasons for leaving are closely related to Craig’s. We both saw the deception and the false teaching. The pastors there are not open to hearing any critical voices speak, even if in love - so that gave us no option, but to move on, although it is hard to stop talking about it because of all of our friends that are still there…They [the pastors of the fastest church planting church in the nation] don’t buy $500 trash cans (like City does) or $4,000 flower pots (like City does), and yes that is true - I was a custodian at City so I know.” (C.T.P., City Business Church blog, July 21st, 2007 at 8:54 am).  

After reading what these two former members said about why they left The City Church, I found the following comments from Pastor Wendell Smith, Craig and C.T.P.'s former pastor, most interesting:  

“Over the years, I have known a few men who chose to debate the issue of tithing with me. Rationalizing their view based on their own limited perusing of Scripture, they decided to take a stand against being ‘obligated’ to give ten percent of their income. They believed the New Testament way was to give as the Spirit led. But always, upon review of their financial records after their departure, we discovered they were giving far less. Why would the Holy Spirit lead them to give less than what both Old and New Testament Scriptures teach? I believe the wrong spirit led them to the wrong doctrine and to the wrong decision! They missed the bigger issues of having a right heart attitude toward God, loving His Word, wanting to please Him, and understanding covenant relationship.” Wendell Smith, Prosperity with a Purpose, The City Church, Kirkland, Washington, 2005, p. 158

Both sides in this discussion accuse the other of being involved in some form of deception. Craig and C.T.P. accuse Pastor Wendell of being deceived by false teaching and using it to manipulate his flock for personal financial profit. Pastor Wendell accuses those who questioned his doctrine of tithing of not loving God's Word, and, therefore, opening themselves up to being deceived by a "wrong spirit." In my view, for any Christian to accuse another believer of being deceived is a very serious matter. What do you think?     

One of the classes that I taught in Bible College was called Leadership. We offered Leadership I and Leadership II levels. It was normally only Juniors or Seniors who took the classes.  I team-taught this class with the academic dean of the school whose name was Bill (name changed). One day, Bill distributed a handout to the class that truly began to open my eyes. The handout said that everyone in a local church, including all of the staff and congregation (I’m not absolutely positive about the congregation being included), was to function in the “ministry of helps” and serving to minister to the senior pastor and his vision.

Since the NT mentions the ministry of helps in I Corinthians 12:28 and the gift of serving in I Peter 4:11, I believed that there were (and are) such gifts in the church. But, to hear Bill say that everyone in a church and on a church staff was to function in those gifts to help the senior pastor accomplish his vision began to be too much for me. This handout raised many questions in my mind. Among them were these two:

(1) What if there are believers in a local church or on a church staff that have other gifts besides the gifts of helps or serving? What are they to do with their gifts?

(2) How are the other spiritual gifts like the gift of teaching, prophecy or leadership suppose to function within the confines of a service of “helps” or “serving” directed to benefit the senior pastor? 

Young, docile, ambitious, uneducated, financially dependent, inexperienced, and insecure men (who are also in need of father figures) are the politically-safest kind of men for pastor-kings to promote in their kingdoms. (Why do you think so many corporations prefer in-house training?) 

The fattest carrot of all that pastor-kings offer to young men (or women) who feel a call to the ministry is ministry opportunity itself e.g., teaching a church class; sitting on the platform; preaching on Sunday night; traveling with the senior pastor; preaching in a sister church, team-teaching with one of the elders, etc. 

In the kingdom of the pastor-king, it is communicated in various ways that those who kiss the ring of the pastor-king obtain the big carrot - ministry opportunities; those who do not miss out on the same opportunities as well as promotions. (I declined becoming an elder in my home church more than once and it was clearly not appreciated.) 

Jesus said, "I am the door…" (application only) but in the kingdom of the pastor-king, it is the senior pastor who is the door to all ministry opportunities (of course, as "ministry" is narrowly defined and expressed in the confines of that pastor-king's kingdom). 

As one of my former pastors told me when I pressed him as to why he was hinting to me that I should quit my teaching position in his Bible College that I had successfully held for about nine years and go to another church: 

"If you will become more like us; I will open up more ministry doors for you; if you won't become more like us, then I won't open up anymore ministry doors for you." 

Young men expend too much time and energy - even compromising their personal convictions and swallowing their sincere questions and doubts - getting on the good side of their pastor-kings so that he will give them opportunities to “minister.” 

All these ambitious men really have to do, if they would just take a lesson from Jesus with the masses or John Wesley with the coal miners as they lined up to go work, etc. is open their front door and go preach to their neighbor or on the sidewalk or someplace there are needy people. 

Instead, the Yes Men of the pastor-king's court seek the honor and approval of men. They choose comfortable pulpits (with flowing water falls or rotating globes in the background), honorariums and choirs who will applaud their shallow, topical messages even though they lack originality and are filled with hackneyed clichés of the politically-correct traditions of their pastor-kings. 

One Sunday evening, I preached a controversial message in my home church; one to which I no longer hold. It was a sermon that supported Postmillennialism (the belief that all of the nations will gradually become Christianized before Jesus returns). Before the message, I playfully told the congregation that the pastor should feel free to correct me after I finished!

My comment was not appreciated. After I ended my message, instead of the pastor getting up to the pulpit and saying something like, “It sure is great that Christians don’t have to all believe the same thing on the End Times,” he tapped the elder who was sitting in front of him on the platform and asked him to dismiss the service; which he did very clumsily.   

The next morning, the pastor called me into his office. He told me that he was the only one in the church who defined doctrine and it was not going to be me! 

I asked him, "Why can Ern Baxter (now deceased) come into our church as a guest speaker and preach Postmillennialism from the pulpit and get away with it but I can't?" He said, "It's because Ern Baxter is not a member of this church; neither is he on staff here. What he says will be heard today and gone tomorrow. Anything Ern says that I choose not to re-emphasize, I just allow to fall through the cracks. In your case, however, since you are on church staff, it is an entirely different story.”