It's Sovereign Grace Ministry month here at City Business, so here is another blog from someone who left her church.  What's especially great about this blog, is the beautiful young lady includes the different email exhanges she had with her pastors during the time she thought about leaving. 

Here's the email she received after she finally convinced the pastor she was leaving:

I suspect that the way you are thinking you would never have been present to hear Paul's letter to the Galatians being read to the congregation.

Hahaha… Good one, pastor, Good one. You got her. PWNED!

If you have time, read through the entire email exchange. It's the classic passive aggressive approach to pastoring. "I love you.  But because you want to leave the church, you are walking in sin. I want to you help you resist this sin. Oh, and the church is the bride of Christ."

A few readers have tipped me off to a couple new blogs that are dedicated to discussing the imperfections of Sovereign Grace Ministries.

One reader is a former City Bible member, and here is her family's experience at this church:

We attended the Tucson Sovereign Grace church for 2 years. We had so much fun in the beginning because people were so friendly, the pastors were so "humble" (unlike cbc) and we just loved it.

then we had an "observation" - a good reformed word for "issue" with the pastor and met with him several times and found that the humility shown across the pulpit no where to be found. the pastor lied to us, the associate pastor lied and wouldnt even hear our issue, instead turned it around and called us sinners and accused us of having marriage problems.

There have been 10 families that have left this last year - most for the same reasons as us. this church is only about 150 people btw so a huge exodus.

Tucson SGChurch is now having all their members - reup their membership and in order to be a member, they have to sign that they are in total agreement with the entire doctrinal statment of the church and one of the items is "I will read my Bible every day" I will try to get a copy of this from a friend there - she hasnt signed it yet.

If you're not a member, you will get NO care - no care group membership allowed, you're not allowed access to the phone directory - this is a very social church, we all wanted access to that.

I want to touch quickly on this issue of "false humility". I had a somewhat similar experience with the pastor of a church I attended in college.  When I first attended the church, I thought the guy was great and very humble. And then a few issues came up with his children, in which I got stuck in the middle. (Basically, his oldest son, who was seventeen, ran away from home and ran straight to my place to crash on my couch for a week. My college roommates thought this was highly entertaining. Myself, I was annoyed.) Anwyay, the more I got to know the pastor, the more I realized he was actually a pretty arrogant man.  And not a particulary good pastor. I didn't stop going to the church, but I did cut back my attendance a fair amount. As such, I tend to think the humility in most pastors is just a well-rehearsed act. But I digress…

As near as I can tell there are several SGM churches all over the country. And here are the blogs that discuss these churches.

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/

http://sgmrefuge.com/

I love seeing other congregations blog about their church and its leaders.  Pastors are there to serve you, not you them.

While cruising around the "blogosphere" last Friday I ran across Mark Conner's Space. If I'm not mistaken (and I very rarely am) Mark Conner is Pastor of City Life Church and is also Sharon Damazio's brother (aka Pastor Frank's brother in-law). Anyhow, there was one post on Mark's Space that stood out to me: Fun & Games with the Media.

As it turns out, a local paper wrote a story about a Physiotherapist who was sexually abusing his patients over a long period of time. In the article there is a headline that states "Churchgoer's `insidious' acts wreak trauma" and at the end of the story there is a comment by this Physiotherapist's defense lawyer saying "Ms Hartnett said he was a dedicated Christian who regularly attended the City Life Church in Wantirna."

Mark Conner (and some of his churchgoers), seem a little peeved that this article connected this man with their church. Mark has this to say

Firstly, this man's behaviour clearly indicates that he is not a 'dedicated Christian' and secondly, he does not regularly attend our church. He obviously has visited our church at some time over the years - like 1000s of other people have. Unfortunately, the journalist didn't check their facts but didn't hesitate to incriminate Christianity and the church. How sad and how wrong.

Mark goes on to post a letter that someone from his congregation wrote to the paper complaining about this lack of journalistic integrity. This letter brings up good and valid points…however, I was struck by the attitude of Mark, and many of the others who posted comments, and their attempt to salvage their image. I, of course, couldn't resist writing a comment of my own which lasted on the site for about 1 day before being deleted. Here was the comment I had written:  

Reading through this I had the same feelings as Anon [a comment previous to mine] did. I started getting sick to my stomach listening to everyone who was trying to distance themselves as far as they could from this "sinner". Obviously this guy made some major mistakes…he hurt a lot of people…and legally he should be punished…but does God love him any less? Does God love you more?

How quickly we forget our own sinful nature…You who are without sin can keep casting those stones, however, I tend to think that LOG in your own eye is going to come back to bite you.

And Mark, I find it incredibly hypocritical that in the very same blog you put down a newspaper for twisting the facts and then do the very same thing yourself.  Shame on you.

Your quote at the start of this blog makes it sounds as though you have no idea who this guy is or if he ever actually attended your church:

"Firstly, this man's behavior clearly indicates that he is not a 'dedicated Christian' and secondly, he does not regularly attend our church. He obviously has visited our church at some time over the years - like 1000s of other people have. Unfortunately, the journalist didn't check their facts but didn't hesitate to incriminate Christianity and the church. How sad and how wrong."

This sounds like the guy just slipped in and out of your church completely uninvolved and unnoticed and it is not until someone else calls you out and says

"I knew Brad and I knew he attended your church regularly and attended a small group from your church."

that you come out with the real story and tell us:

"I have spoken to our pastoral team who knew him and were involved in his situation."

We are all sinners. Some of us are saved by grace and others are in need of that grace, but none of us can boast in our own salvation. I'm ashamed that a "Christ loving" church would be so quick to distance themselves from someone in need just to help save their own image.

When Jesus was on the earth He spent his time loving sinners and rebuking the church and yet now the Church spends their time rebuking sinners and loving themselves.

How sad and how wrong.

Mark Conner of City Life Church, let me ask you this: When was Jesus concerned with his image? When He was criticized for eating with "sinners" He sure didn't worry about doing any damage control.

I believe respect is something that you earn. Today's Christian Church doesn't get respect because they just don't deserve it.

I don’t know. Maybe I shoulda never cancelled my Sacramento Bee subscription. I'm always the last one to find these things out.  

But, in the wake of my “Gorbachev A Christian?” post, now comes news that I must perhaps address Ms. Rodham-Clinton as “sister!” 

This is starting to get difficult. 

I guess I need a scorecard. Let’s see, first it was Charlie Sheen, then Stephen Baldwin, then Barack Obama…and now Hillary. I mean, who’s it going to be next, Bill Clinton? Hey! That's not a bad idea. At least then, husbands, fiancés and boyfriends all across the U.S. could sleep nights. 

If this is true, one wonders…can Osama bin Laden be far behind?

-joe

H/T: Albino Hayford

I came across this article under the Q & A section of John Piper’s excellent blog.

Inasmuch as "the homosexual question" just won’t seem to quietly go away from the lofty threads of C-BUS-C — see the debate under the Obama And Same Sex Union thread — I thought Dr. Piper's take on the matter, this aspect of negative/positive confession, was interesting. 

In the original article, he provides a link to a position paper he helped draft on homosexuality, which I have appended. It all runs rather long, and will perhaps be a bit tedious to some, I still think it's some good food for thought. At the very least, it will help keep us occupied till Cat gets back and starts earning his pay again.

I just hope I’m not in violation of any copyright laws in cutting and pasting this stuff here.

{{Shudder}}

“How can we help Christians who are struggling with homosexual desires?” 

(By John Piper January 16, 2008.) 

(The following is an edited transcription of the audio.)  

How can we help Christians who are struggling with homosexual desires?  

I would encourage them to be careful not to define themselves as "homosexual." Don't say, "I am gay," or "I am a homosexual." Say, rather, "I struggle with homosexual desires." That's a very small—and huge—distinction.  

There was a Christian brother in our church who had AIDS due to his history in the homosexual lifestyle. The Lord wonderfully saved him from that, and he taught me so many things over the 10 years or so that we were together. He also helped me draft a one-page statement of conviction and compassion with regard to homosexuality.  

He, Joe, said to me: "Don't ever let any man tell you he is a homosexual. Always correct his vocabulary, because in Christ Jesus that is not who I am. In Christ Jesus I am a new creature."  

Just like John Piper is a new creature in Christ, even though he still struggles with the sins of impatience, lust, and pride, Christians who struggle with homosexual desires are not homosexuals. In Christ they are new creatures who struggle with the temptations of homosexuality. And I just want to come along side them and say, "Get that as your paradigm, and let's struggle together in chastity and in purity until we're dead."  

Who knows how much healing may come? There is an article I read recently in Christianity Today about Exodus International ministries. It talks about people experiencing true change, healing and victory over homosexual temptations. It doesn't mean that those feelings go away entirely, but many in time are able to enjoy heterosexual lives or lives of contented, chaste singleness despite a history of homosexual sin.  

I don't want to create the impression that this is a taboo subject at my church or that I won't be patient and compassionate with those who are struggling with it. They have enough burden of their own.  

I just heard of another young man who is suicidally depressed because of who he thinks he is. Everything in me wants to say to him, "I'll stand by you all the way to my grave or your grave, but don't give up this battle and don't think God doesn't have you here, with this struggle, for a purpose that you can find and flourish in."  

Bethlehem's Position on Homosexuality

(By John Piper August 6, 2003)   

In view of the recent actions of the Supreme Court in regard to Sodomy laws, and the controversy over actively homosexual bishops in the Episcopalian and Anglican denominations, it is important to bring forward again the position of Bethlehem Baptist Church which the Elders established in the fall of 1992. I drafted this statement with the help of Joe Hallet who came out of the homosexual life by the power of Christ and lived faithfully with AIDS, and eventually with his wife, until his death in 1997. 

Beliefs about Homosexual Behavior and Ministering to Homosexual Persons

Our affirmation that the Bible is the infallible Word of God with "supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct," and our affirmation that "a Christian should live for the glory of God" include the following six beliefs about heterosexuality and homosexuality: 

1. We believe that heterosexuality is God's revealed will for humankind and that, since God is loving, a chaste and faithful expression of this orientation (whether in singleness or in marriage) is the ideal to which God calls all people. 

2. We believe that a homosexual orientation is a result of the fall of humanity into a sinful condition that pervades every person. Whatever biological or familial roots of homosexuality may be discovered, we do not believe that these would sanction or excuse homosexual behavior, though they would deepen our compassion and patience for those who are struggling to be free from sexual temptations. 

3. We believe there is hope for the person with a homosexual orientation and that Jesus Christ offers a healing alternative in which the power of sin is broken and the person is freed to know and experience his or her true identity in Christ and in the fellowship of his Church. 

4. We believe that this freedom is attained through a process which includes recognizing homosexual behavior as sin, renouncing the practice of homosexual behavior, rediscovering healthy, non-erotic friendships with people of the same sex, embracing a moral sexual lifestyle, and in the age to come, rising from the dead with a new body free from every sinful impulse. This process parallels the similar process of sanctification needed in dealing with heterosexual temptations as well. We believe that this freedom comes through faith in Jesus Christ, by the power of his Spirit. 

5. We believe that all persons have been created in the image of God and should be accorded human dignity. We believe therefore that hateful, fearful, unconcerned harassment of persons with a homosexual orientation should be repudiated. We believe that respect for persons with a homosexual orientation involves honest, reasoned, nonviolent sharing of facts concerning the immorality and liability of homosexual behavior. On the other hand, endorsing behavior which the Bible disapproves endangers persons and dishonors God. 

6. We believe that Christian churches should reach out in love and truth to minister to people touched by homosexuality, and that those who contend Biblically against their own sexual temptation should be patiently assisted in their battle, not ostracized or disdained. However, the more prominent a leadership role or modeling role a person holds in a church or institution of the Conference, the higher will be the expectations for God's ideal of sexual obedience and wholeness. We affirm that both heterosexual and homosexual persons should find help in the church to engage in the Biblical battle against all improper sexual thoughts and behaviors. 

Pastor John

Late note: I just noticed Cat also posted something by Dr. Piper — his tirade on the Prosperity Gospel — and all I can say is…Cat and I apparently think very much alike.

-joebib

Longtime reader BK sends in this link:

In the opening of his book, The Kingdom of God is a Party, Tony Compolo tells of a trip to Hawaii. When you travel from the east coast to Honolulu, your biological clock runs wild for a day or so, and the first night there, Compolo was both hungry and awake at 3:00 a.m. He went off to find an open restaurant., but the only thing open was a greasy spoon diner run by a guy named Harry. So he sat down and ordered a donut.

As he was beginning to eat, a group of prostitutes entered the diner and sat at the counter, trapping Compolo among them. One of the prostitutes mentioned to her friend that the next day was her birthday. Her friend said cynically, “Why are you telling me? Do you want a party and cake; is that what you want?” The first prostitute, named Agnes, said, “Why do you have to be so nasty? I was just telling you. No, I don't expect a cake and a party; I've never have had a birthday cake in my life!” There was something about this woman that touched Compolo. After they left, he asked Harry if these girls came in every night. When he found out that they did, Compolo and Harry decided to give Agnes a party. Harry did the cake, Compolo did the decorations and Harry's wife got the word out.

The next morning at 3:15 there were crepe-paper decorations, a huge birthday cake and about thirty prostitutes and street people in the diner. When Agnes walked in, everybody yelled “Surprise” and they sang happy birthday. Agnes almost collapsed, and she began to cry uncontrollably. She was at her very first birthday party, and the party was for her! She didn't even want to cut the cake; she took it back to her apartment so she could look at it for a couple of days.

After Agnes left to take her cake home, something just prompted Compolo to say, “What do you say; let's have a prayer for Agnes.” It just seemed like the thing to do at the time. After the prayer, Harry said, “Hey, you didn't tell us you were a preacher. Why kind of church do you belong to anyway?” In one of those flashes of inspiration where you to say exactly the right thing at the right time, Compolo answered, “I belong to a church that throws parties for prostitutes at 3:30 in the morning!” But it was Harry who told the punch line to this story; he said, “No you don't. There are no churches like that. If there was, I'd join. I’d want to be a part of a church like that!” You know, who wouldn't?

Who was it with whom Jesus spent his time? Why was Jesus criticized by the religious establishment in Luke 15:2? He ate with tax collectors and sinners. Jesus wasn’t refined or discriminating enough in his selection of companions. He threw parties for prostitutes (metaphorically if not literally). Has the church become too refined and sophisticated to walk where Jesus walked? Maybe we need to throw a few more parties for people who have never been to the party.

Let's ask that question again:

Has the church become too refined and sophisticated to walk where Jesus walked?  

Over at DesiringGod.org, John Piper has written another excellent article. This one is about my favorite subject, Prosperity Teachers. In it he lists five pleas to Prosperity Teachers asking them to stop their false teachings. Here is the first:

1. Don't develop a philosophy of ministry that makes it harder for people to get into heaven.

Jesus said, "How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" His disciples were astonished, as many in the "prosperity" movement should be. So Jesus went on to raise their astonishment even higher by saying, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." They respond in disbelief: "Then who can be saved?" Jesus says, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God" (Mark 10:23-27).

My question for prosperity preachers is: Why would you want to develop a ministry focus that makes it harder for people to enter heaven?

Why WOULD you want to develop a ministry focus that makes it harder for people to enter heaven??? We've been asking that question for years…and I think I know the answer: Because it sells better than the truth…which is quite despicable, in my book.

Anyway, I highly recommend reading the full article. I would especially like to invite the members of Any City Church to read it and send in a response. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Let me know.

Our Blogs BFF, Chris Snethen, is leaving Oregonlive and starting up his own independent blog called The Vig.

Here he explains his decision to leave Oregonlive:

Applying the principles of The Dip to my writing, things became pretty clear. There's no future in writing about politics. There are a ton of blogs out there focused on all things politics and mine was just another voice in the ether. I mean it was nice and all to be called the 19th most influential blog in Oregon politics earlier this summer (true story), but really…who am I kidding? There are others locally who's views I read and take far more seriously than my own. Besides, as I said back in May, there are only so many different ways I can say "this sucks, I'm voting for Obama." And really nothing has changed

So what to do? It's became clear I need to start my own site.

I've been reading Chris since 2003 when Oregon Live asked undecided voters to blog their decision making process for the 2004 Presidential Election. And I really identified with what Chris was going through. I'm convinced he has a great future in writing. So check out his new blog, I promise you'll like it:

The Vig 

Craig at Doctrinetalk.com has posted a comment about Speaking in Tongues that asks some great questions and should lead to a good discussion.

 Check it out here.

I finally got around to adding Doctrinetalk.com to our blogroll. I know I wrote about it earlier, but I wanted to once again suggest that everyone check it out. It's just like us…without all the bitterness.

Craig has some great insight and I think you will enjoy reading he has to say.