Someone recently said, "Very Few people on this blog will comment on what they DO believe, they just want to criticize you for your beliefs." Well, I would like to think that we frequently comment on what we DO believe and then criticize you for your beliefs. Anyways, here is what I believe in regard to one subject…giving.

I believe that giving is one of the most important things we, as Christians, can do to spread the gospel. Honestly.

Give. Everything.         

It's really that simple. Unfortunately, due to the miss-teachings of many prosperity preachers I must now clarify what I mean by "give". So allow me to present my "Give, but do NOT give" guideline.

Give, but do NOT give…a guideline

Give, but Do NOT give 10% of your income to your church to fulfill an Old Testament ritual. Give 10% to your church, but do it to fulfill New Testament direction from Jesus…and than tack on an extra 10% for fun. Or give 5% with a cheerful heart. Or give $20 bucks with a smile on your face. Give whatever you feel God wants you to give.

Give, but Do NOT give only to your church…give 10% of your income to your church, give another 5% to a local charity, then give $20 bucks to the guy standing on the corner, go buy the single mom down the street food, and also buy coffee for the businessman in a suit standing behind you in line at Starbucks, give to orphans in Africa…give to anybody and give to everybody.

Give, but Do NOT give only money (despite what "they" tell you, giving money is easy)…give of your time…give of yourself…give love…give hugs…give 1 night a week to serving food at a homeless shelter, give another night to read books to sick kids at the Children's Hospital, spend your Saturday afternoon mowing your neighbors lawn, spend a hot day passing around water bottles to those stuck outside in the heat, spend another day stuffing envelops for a local charity… treat others like Christ treated you.

Give, but Do NOT give so that God will bless you. Give because of what God has already done in your life. Give because Christ died so that you might be saved. Give because your eternity will be spent in heaven. Give because if you have Christ you have all the blessing you need. (And yes, if you give God will bless you… but do NOT attach the American definition of "blessing" to what God will do for you…God may just end up "blessing" you with disease, tragedy, and pain…and yet… still bring Himself glory.)

In summation, I believe that we should give… everything… and in doing so find complete contentment in what we already have from Jesus (Forgiveness, Mercy, Grace, Salvation) thus giving all the glory to God. 

For those keeping score allow me to also state, "Jesus is my Lord and Savior".

"The Israelites were a religious people. Pilgrimages to Bethel, Gilgal, and Beer-sheba, the sacred precincts of Israel, were commonplace (Amos 4:4; 5:5). Freewill and thanksgiving offerings and tithes were performed regularly (4:4), and there were many religious assemblies and festivals (5:21–23). By all criteria, then, the Israelites assumed that they were performing the cultic and ritual requirements necessary to appease Yahweh. 

Furthermore, they considered their wealth and security as evidence that Yahweh was pleased. They assumed that their steadfast devotion to cultic ritual exempted them from the requirements of righteousness and social justice and from the consequences of wrongdoing. Through sacrifice they could guarantee divine favor and their own survival. The peace and prosperity the nation enjoyed must have, to many Israelites, validated their lives, values, and assumptions as the chosen people of God. 

Yet the people had turned the official view around and were reasoning in reverse: their prosperity proved that they were righteous. The distinction, while a fine one, is nevertheless important: the obligation of the covenant was to pursue righteousness and justice; prosperity would follow as a by-product of God’s pleasure. The pursuit of wealth rather than righteousness was an unacceptable short cut, and wholly abhorrent to Yahweh, according to the prophet. 

‘Amos’ severe judgment is a repudiation, not of the cult [worship system] itself, but of the cult as it was practiced in the eighth century B.C.E. …One’s conduct in the marketplace must always conform to one’s attitude in the holy place’ (King 1988: 89). 

And Israel’s did not. Amos decried the social injustice, the oppression of the poor, and the lack of any moral or ethical values on the part of the rich and powerful. According to Amos, the spokesman of Yahweh, Israel was a violent, oppressive, and exploitative society. The poor had to sell themselves into slavery to pay off trivial debts (2:6; 8:6). The rich falsified weights and measures (8:5) and traded dishonestly (8:6). Even the courts, the last bastion of hope for the poor, were corrupt. Judges were bribed to cheat the poor out of what little they had (2:7; 5:10, 12). In fact, Israel was no longer capable of acting with justice (3:10; cf. 5:7, 24; 6:12). Truth and honesty were now hated (5:10).” 

Source: Bruce E. Willoughby, Amos, the book of, The Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 1, pgs. 203-212 (for entire article)

Havis writes: "…tithing is a part of my covenant relationship with God. Covenants are made and confirmed with tokens. Jesus brings his blood to the covenant and I (being of the seed of Abraham) bring the 10th part of my blessing to Jesus as Abraham brought his 10th part to Melchizedek. I say it, over and over, again and again, I do not tithe because someone has constrained me and told me that I must tithe. I tithe because I want to. I love tithing. I have faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me."  (June 8, 2007)

To say that tithing is a part of your covenant relationship with God since you are a son of Abraham by faith in Jesus Christ is, at first glance, an admirable admission. After all, should not all believers follow in the footsteps of Abraham, the father of the faith? It is also admirable when you say that you have "faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me." 

Havis: I would like to submit to you a few thoughts:   

(1) You say that in your covenant relationship with God, “Jesus brings his blood” and “I bring the tithe.” This gives the impression that your covenant relationship with God is not based solely on grace through faith in the blood of Christ, but on a mixture of Christ’s blood and your tithe. I know you say that you tithe voluntarily, which implies that it is not a covenant condition, but it still sounds dangerous to me. 

(2) You say that you tithe since you are a part of “the seed of Abraham.” It is true that Paul calls all believers the sons and daughters of Abraham by their faith in Jesus Christ. However, not one NT writer ever connects being the seed of Abraham with tithing. As RP has asked you: do you also consider circumcision as part of your covenant relationship with God since it was the sign of God’s covenant with him? 

(3) When you tell us that you have "faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me,” I think it’s good that you’re sharing, but I feel you need to consider not becoming like the Pharisee who went to the temple and was so proud of his tithing record (Luke 18:12). Jesus says that our giving should be in secret (Matthew 6:1-4).   

(4) In another post, you raise the question of the everlasting covenant and its relationship to the Abrahamic and New Covenants. In my view, all previous covenants, along with all of their “tokens,” have been fulfilled and abolished in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant in his blood. I think that the Book of Hebrews makes this very clear. To imply that tithing was a part of the everlasting covenant before Genesis 14:20 has no scriptural support.

According to this Time article, ATM's are expected to become even more prevalent in churches. The IRS is requiring greater documentation on charitable contributions, and since ATM's leave an electronic record that fulfill this new requirement, more churches are expected to install them in their buildings.

Beginning with gifts given in 2007, the IRS will demand documentation for charitable contributions under $250. Once, all one needed was a diary entry to vouch for such donations. Specially designed ATMs at church will help document such spur-of-the-moment cash gifts, as well as planned giving. Also as a result of the new IRS rule, credit card donations and tithing are likely to increase too because such electronic fund transfers leave a paper trail.

How long before they end up in City Bible? A year. 6 months?

So…to sum up everything I've heard from Havis regarding our need to tithe it would be this (Havis or anyone, correct me if I am misinterpreting things):

1. Abram (soon to be Abraham) gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek (Gen 14:18)

2. Then some time later God makes a Covenant with Abraham and his seed(Gen 17 & Gen 18:19)

3. Then we find out in that Jesus is like Melchizedek (Hebrews 7)

Therefore since Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and since Jesus is Like Melchizedek and since we are the Seed of Abraham we are required to Tithe.

Now, if you don't think about any of this it actually sounds really good. Plus when you throw in a little bit of guilt ("Most people who argue with the Tithe are Greedy") and then a bit of manipulation ("95% of all churches teach the Tithe this way") it can really be hard to stand up to.

The problem is, when you decide to look closer, there are so many gaps that have to be filled in to make this all work. For instance:

Abram gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek

• 1) Abram…he wasn't even named Abraham yet
• 2) Gave a tenth…No where does it say it was commanded
• 3) Of the spoils of war…not of his crops or his possessions, but of spoils
• 4) Abram gave the other 90% to Sodom (who has his city burned for being so sinful a short time later)

Then God makes a Covenant with Abram and his seed

• 1) This Covenant did not happen directly after Abram gave to Melchi.
• 2) This Covenant was all about Circumcision
• 3) No where does it mention Tithing during the Covenant
• 4) In between the time of Abram giving to Melchi. (Gen 14:18) and God making the covenant (Gen 17) we have Gen 15:9:

So the LORD said to him, "Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon."

So…it appears to me that it is quite a stretch to take Abram giving something Melchi and attach it to a covenant that has nothing to do with tithe 3 chapter later all the while ignoring all the instruction from the Lord in between. Furthermore this does nothing to discuss the fact that we have to take "giving to Melchi" and turn that into "giving to the church"…we have to take giving spoils of war and turn it into giving our income…all the while also ignoring all the other scriptures about the law of tithing in the Bible that the church doesn't want you to follow (Lev 27:31, Dut 14:28, Numbers 18:26-32, etc.)

Giving 10% is great. I fully support people giving 10% to the church, just so long as it is "not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

I think we've beat this thread to death, but what the heck: Havis can you show me how to connect Melchi to the Covenant thus requiring us to tithe?

One last thing before I go, Havis you mentioned that "Both tithing and circumcision do not have their roots in the law but in the everlasting covenant." What then do you say to 1 Corinthians 7:19?

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Based solely on what you have said and this scripture I would have to come to the conclusion that Tithing is nothing and Not Tithing is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

I expect Havis to ignore me, that's usually what happens when you back someone into the corner.

1. Frank had to wear the same suit 2 Sunday's in a row.
2. God promised to save 1000 souls IF we upgrade to High Definition Jumbotrons.
3. Now that we're in NY and DC, we're opening a campus in Zurich.
4. The franchise fee for Starbuck's has doubled in the last year.
5. The boob church needs a roofectomy.
6. With the expansion to other countries we need our own satellite.
7. And a rocket to launch it.
8. It takes a lot of clams to buy so many yes-men.
9. Gini needs to see a podiatrist.
10. We want to send Judah to finishing school.

Pastor Rick Snow of Atlanta City Church spoke last week at CBC. The title of his sermon was The Generosity Factor, which struck me as odd, because I instantly recalled listening to a sermon from CBC last year by Rick Snow also called The Generosity Factor…in fact I even blogged about it.

*Quick side note, did anyone else at CBC catch this? I beginning to feel like Kathy Griffin in the Seinfeld episode The Cartoon. I've really got to get a life*

So, for the second time, here is "The Generosity Factor":

:36 - "Generosity was laid on his heart". Tells a story of a pastor who took a job at a Christian School that was completely broke and this pastor listened to Rick's series on Giving and then someone gave them 2 million dollars.

7:12 - "Tell Me what you think about money and I'll tell you what you think about God"

9:15 - "Have a need, Sow a seed" - or as Frank would have you believe "Have a greed, Sow a seed"

10:01 - Mentions that for the first time in many years this tax season he is "Getting a substantial amount back from the IRS" and do you want to know why…because he "sowed almost $27,000 into his church". Then Rick mentions that he "is in the top 5% of givers in his church." - Ok Rick, I hate to tell you this, but getting tax money back does not qualify as a "blessing from God"…your tithe is tax deductible…that's a gift from the IRS, not God…and there are formula's for calculating how it all works…not really a miracle is it?

Also, why do you know that you are in the top 5% of givers in your church and why does that matter?

12:22 - His goal is to "give a reverse tithe" (I'm not making this up). Giving 90% of his income and living on 10%, Rick Warren already does this.

15:07 - Tells us that his church "sowed $100,000 to a "Black" Church in Portland, OR & God gave back not in the form of dollars but instead the reaped in square footage" (they now own a 100,000sf building).  - Whoops, don't let Pastor Frank hear that…Frank doesn't believe that is possible:

                "The special law of sowing and reaping is that the product of the harvest will be the same in kind as the seed sown. Tares will never produce wheat, nor wheat tares. But each seed reproduces its own kind."

Sorry, Rick maybe you sowed a house somewhere and that is how you received the bigger building.

16:35 - "God is in the business…" I didn't catch the rest of this statement, but I don't think God is in any business…he's God.

16:50 - Tells a story about a guy who was in debt with over $100,000 on 2 credit cards that came to him for help. With Rick's advise, the guy pays it off in 2 years. The guy didn't receive any raises at work or anything. So how did he pay it off? Rick says it's because "once God saw that this man was serious…it's amazing how quickly the blessings come". - OR…once this guy got on a budget (with Rick's help) its amazing how much money he actually had.

 Let's be honest, average Joe doesn't have the ability to run up $120,000 on 2 credit cards, clearly this guy makes plenty of money; he just needed someone like Rick to slap some sense into him. And there is your blessing…God didn't pay off the credit in 2 years, this guy did.

19:00 - Tells everyone that if they don't listen to his sermon (which is led by the Spirit) over and over then none of this will work.

20:02 - Quotes Scripture "My God will supply all your needs..." but then says "Every promise has a premise" (Marc, are you getting all these quips. They're gems). "Every promise has a premise" so that scripture "doesn't apply to everyone". Anyone want to guess what that premise is?

33:30 - Rick says something to the effect of "I'm not watching where you give your money…that's not my job…God forbid I would have to do that". Sure, but you know that you are in the top 5% of givers in your church. Stop lying to us Rick.

33:50 - Quote of the night. "I tithe for protection from the curse that is in the earth out there". Let's read that again

"I TITHE FOR PROTECTION FROM THE CURSE THAT IS IN THE EARTH OUT THERE".

My friend Jenny wants to know which scripture that comes from…no seriously, which scripture?

33:59 - "I tithe for Protection but give offerings for Progression". Frank, write that down.

Ok, you see where this is going. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Pastor Rick had a lot of GREAT things to say about getting your finances under control and I'm sure he makes a great financial advisor (just talk to the guy who paid of $120,000 in debt in 2 years). The problem for me is when you tie Financial Trouble with Giving Money to the Church. It sounds good, but just isn't Biblical.

People, stop and think about all this for a minute. Do the math. Listen to everything you've heard from CBC on giving and receiving, run it through the Bible, and see if it adds up. It doesn't. If you have financial troubles today, giving money to the church isn't going to solve them. Getting on a budget, however, will. Tithing isn't a miracle cure for debt, in fact, ask around and you'll find people who tithed regularly and only dug themselves deeper into debt. I'm one of those people.

When my wife and I first got married 7 years ago, we gave 10% of our income every week to CBC. By the end of the month we were living on credit cards. Why? Because we didn't know how to handle our money. Here we are years later, we don't give a full 10% to the church anymore (although I wish we could) and now we have no credit card debt. Imagine that.

I'd like to offer this challenge: I bet that if you took 2 people (or 100 for that matter) and had half of them give 10% of their income to their church, but after that not look at their money at all, and take the other half and have them not give a dime to the church but follow a strict budget you'd see the truth to how much blessing*is involved in tithe. The blessing is in the budget, everyone. The blessing is in the budget.

*by blessing I mean in a CBC sort of way…financially that is. I believe that there is a great "general blessing" for those who are generous, I just won't put a dollar figure on it.

 I decided to check out the top 25 Most Innovative Churches list that Justin posted yesterday. The #1 church listed (lifechurch.tv) is offering a rather interesting "challenge".

It's called the 3 Month Tithing Challenge and here is what they have to say:

The word "tithe" is derived from the Hebrew word ma'aser and it literally means a tenth. Ten percent of everything belongs to the Lord. In Malachi 3:10-11, God says, "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse that there may be food in my house." The ‘storehouse' is the Old Testament picture of the New Testament church. So as New Testament believers, we worship the Lord with the tithe; or the ten percent.

Giving away 10% of your income can be a big - and often frightening - commitment! That's why we created the Three-Month Tithing Challenge: a money-back guarantee of sorts. Essentially, it's a contract based on the promises of God in Malachi 3:10-11. We commit to you that if you tithe for three months and God doesn't prove himself faithful, we will refund 100% of your tithe. No questions asked.

God doesn't need our money. He owns everything. We give first because it takes faith to give first and God wants us to trust Him. He tells us in Proverbs 3:9-10 to "honor the Lord with your wealth, with the first fruits of all your crops and then your barns will be filled with overflowing." We give first and the blessings of God follow.

It's crazy and daring and in a way I respect it… of course it's also just a good way to manipulate people out of their money and shows no regard for scriptures such as Galatians 5:4, but at least they are "putting their money where their mouth is", actually no… they are "putting YOUR money where their mouth is" but whatever… it's an interesting idea.

If you wish to sign up you can do so here. These are the rules that follow:

• 1. I understand that this form must be completed and received by the LifeChurch.tv Finance Team prior to the beginning of the Three-Month Tithe Challenge Period.
• 2. I understand that my household qualifies for participation because we have not been tithing for the last six months.
• 3. I understand that if paid at a physical LifeChurch.tv Campus, my tithe must be paid by check, or by completed offering envelope, so that my tithe can be properly credited.
• 4. I understand that I cannot seek a refund prior to the end of the Three-Month Tithing Challenge Period, and that I cannot seek a refund for any contributions made prior to the beginning of the Three-Month Tithing Challenge Period.
• 5. I understand that any request for refund must be received by the Finance Team within 30 days of the end of the Three-Month Tithing Challenge Period.
• 6. I understand that I must log in prior to paying my tithe online, so that my tithe can be properly credited.
• 7. I would like to test God's faithfulness by accepting the Three-Month Tithe Challenge. I agree that for the three-month period I state below, my household will contribute to God, through LifeChurch.tv, a tithe equal to 10% of our income. At the end of the three-month period, if I am not convinced of God's faithfulness as a result of my obedience to His Word, then I will be entitled to request a refund of the full amount of contributions made during that 90-day period.

I think this idea works the same way CBC can claim "our books are open"; they know no one will follow through. I doubt anyone would ever dare say "God didn't prove himself faithfull". I'm sure it is thinking like this that makes them the "Most Innovative Church". While I don't agree with it, I do like the fact that they are trying something new. 

In fact I would like to offer a similar challenge:

Stop tithing for 3 months and if God goes Malachi 3:9 on your ass I'll start tithing to whatever church you like.