I'm back on a little tithing kick these days and wanted to post another Quick Tithing Question:

Let's read from the Book of Deuteronomy Chapter 14 and Verses 22-27. We'll go verse by verse and I'll add commentary as we go.

 22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.

This lines up with all pro-tithing teachers. Set aside 1/10^th of all your produce each year (although now they want you to pay each week or each month…)

23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.

Wait…I'm a little confused? Eat the tithe? I'm sure this is supposed to say "Give the tithe to the Levite Priests and let them ‘Eat the tithe' in the presence of the LORD". But it doesn't say that. It says "you eat". If we translate that into modern times it would be "You spend the tithe…in the presence of the LORD". Hmnnn….I hope God clears this up later on. Let's read verses 24-26

                24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.

Whoa. Exchange the tithe for silver…and use the silver to buy whatever you like. This can't be right. Use the tithe to buy whatever you like? How is CBC supposed to turn a profit if everyone is allowed to "buy whatever they like"?

But wait, it gets better: Use the silver to buy whatever you like: Cattle, sheep, WINE OR OTHER FERMENTED DRINK, or anything you wish.  I'm supposed to take 10% of my income and buy whatever I like, specifically WINE OR OTHER FERMENTED DRINK? That's fantastic. I'll have to run the numbers, but a quick guess says based on that law I give way more than 10%.

I just have to eat/drink in the presence of the LORD. He is living in my heart…does that count?

We better read on.

27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

Oh. I see. So here's how this breaks down. I'm supposed to throw a big party with great food and wine and invite the pastors who have no income of their own and that will count as "tithing". This is great. Can you imagine if someone showed up to CBC on Sunday and told Frank they were cooking his favorite meal?

Well, that did it. I'm changing my stance on tithing. I now support the Biblical Law of tithe. I would like to invite everyone to join me in my giving this week. Let's all head down to Kennedy School…the first round is on me.

Reading from Numbers 31

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.  36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:
       337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;  38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;  39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;  40 16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.

Why is the Lord’s tribute less than 10%? Shouldn’t it be a full tithe? Abraham gave 10 percent of his spoils of war to Melchizedech and Pro-Tither’s want to use that to show that the “Tithe” was established before the law. But if it were…wouldn't the Lords share of virgins be 3,200 and not 32?

Any takers?

Greetings, fellow Netizens! It is I, Belteshazzar, your newest and latest contributor to all things tithing here at City Business Church. I've been a long-time reader and commenter here and the Mortons have kindly asked me to lend a hand in creating new content. I've been commenting under the name Former Inner Circle Member (FICM), which was a rather vain moniker I'll humbly admit. I've decided to change my alias for a couple of reasons, mainly to get rid of the old awkward one, and also I was jealous of the other bloggers for having such cool super-hero sounding names. In the end, I chose "Belteshazzar" because it's a pretty good hint as to my true identity without giving it away completely. I have good reasons for remaining semi-anonymous, so I will neither confirm nor deny any guesses. If you think you know who I am, look me up on Facebook or email, I'm not hard to find. If you don't know who I am, well, it's probably not important.

I was a part of Bible Temple/City Bible Church for over 10 years. I went to a Christian High School and aspired to be in full-time ministry so I promptly went to Portland Bible College. That worked so well, after my first year I quit to spend the next year working off my tuition debt and figuring out what the heck I was going to do next. But I was still drinking the kool-aid and spent the next decade working my boney butt off trying to please God and the leaders of the church. Man, I did it all, youth ministry, music, mission trips, outreaches, small group leader, started a student group on my college campus, and spent 3 services on Sunday and 2 nights a week in meetings, on top of working at a Christian company and going to a real college. I did everything but actually take a paid staff position at the church. I say all that so that when people have reason to question me or the legitmacy of my complaints at CBC and MFI, or as they call it my "lack of unity", I want people to know that I'm not making this stuff up because I was offended by some off-hand remark or don't understand how things really work there under the big bubbles. I tried it all, and despite all the normal dysfunction of being in a church being run by imperfect people there is one "doctrine" they still teach that I am unable to forgive. I've forgiven all the other petty things done to me or said about, heck, I really don't care what they think of me. But I can't help but feel righteous rage that they still teach and promote tithing and prosperity over the Gospel of Christ. It's something I won't back down on, and I'm not about to apologize to them or anyone else for criticizing, mocking, or satirizing the teaching of tithing=wealth.

So, in the spirit of that, I'll leave you with something I hope you will think is funny or at least though provoking. There was an episode of South Park a few years back where the kids discovered that the Underpants Gnomes were stealing…well, underpants . When confronted, said gnomes gladly shared their business plan:

1. Collect underpants

2.  ?

3. Profit

With a little rearranging, we get…

1. Tithe

2. ?

3. Prosperity

For all the Bible quoting they do about how God will bless you if you give, phase 2 seems to be remarkably absent from this business plan. Next post, I discuss how tithing could actually be costing the church money in the long run.

Now I know the topic of tithing has been beaten to death here at City Business Church, but some of our readers have recently shown that they still don't get it.  So for those of you who need a little refresher, here are some key points on what the Bible says about tithing.  CLICK HERE for a full scriptural review.

Key Points:

1) There is nothing in the bible to conclude that Abraham regularly tithed on his own personal property or livestock, but rather on the booty from conflict (Heb. 7:1-10).

2) Jacob wouldn't tithe until God blessed him first, not the reverse (Gen. 28:20-22). And when he did tithe it was with his family and for the poor (Deut. 12:6-7, Deut. 14:29).

3) Only Levite priests could collect tithe (which we don't have today) (Num. 18:24-28).

4) Only food from the land was tithable, not the air or the sea (Lev. 27:30-33).

5) Money was not tithed.

6) Christian converts (Gentiles) were never instructed to tithe under the new covenant and at this point in history, Israelites owe no duty to tithe either (Key quote: "Read all thirteen books of the apostle Paul to the gentiles. There is not one verse where he instructed Gentiles to pay one cent of tithe money to anyone").

7) The doctrine of tithing did not appear in the church until centuries after completion of the Bible.

8) Giving is voluntary, not required (Matt. 10:8).

Best suggestion for giving:

"Give to the fatherless, the orphans, the strangers, the widows, the poor, and the needy, the homeless, and the beggar on the street, as God gives to you, the wherewithal. Give to reputable charities if you have extra. Give to your family members and relatives in need—don’t humiliate them by making them ask you first. Give to a neighbor in financial distress. Even when tipping someone, let it be a reflection of the One that you are representing in your Christian walk. Our God is a generous God—may you become generous also."

Someone recently said, "Very Few people on this blog will comment on what they DO believe, they just want to criticize you for your beliefs." Well, I would like to think that we frequently comment on what we DO believe and then criticize you for your beliefs. Anyways, here is what I believe in regard to one subject…giving.

I believe that giving is one of the most important things we, as Christians, can do to spread the gospel. Honestly.

Give. Everything.         

It's really that simple. Unfortunately, due to the miss-teachings of many prosperity preachers I must now clarify what I mean by "give". So allow me to present my "Give, but do NOT give" guideline.

Give, but do NOT give…a guideline

Give, but Do NOT give 10% of your income to your church to fulfill an Old Testament ritual. Give 10% to your church, but do it to fulfill New Testament direction from Jesus…and than tack on an extra 10% for fun. Or give 5% with a cheerful heart. Or give $20 bucks with a smile on your face. Give whatever you feel God wants you to give.

Give, but Do NOT give only to your church…give 10% of your income to your church, give another 5% to a local charity, then give $20 bucks to the guy standing on the corner, go buy the single mom down the street food, and also buy coffee for the businessman in a suit standing behind you in line at Starbucks, give to orphans in Africa…give to anybody and give to everybody.

Give, but Do NOT give only money (despite what "they" tell you, giving money is easy)…give of your time…give of yourself…give love…give hugs…give 1 night a week to serving food at a homeless shelter, give another night to read books to sick kids at the Children's Hospital, spend your Saturday afternoon mowing your neighbors lawn, spend a hot day passing around water bottles to those stuck outside in the heat, spend another day stuffing envelops for a local charity… treat others like Christ treated you.

Give, but Do NOT give so that God will bless you. Give because of what God has already done in your life. Give because Christ died so that you might be saved. Give because your eternity will be spent in heaven. Give because if you have Christ you have all the blessing you need. (And yes, if you give God will bless you… but do NOT attach the American definition of "blessing" to what God will do for you…God may just end up "blessing" you with disease, tragedy, and pain…and yet… still bring Himself glory.)

In summation, I believe that we should give… everything… and in doing so find complete contentment in what we already have from Jesus (Forgiveness, Mercy, Grace, Salvation) thus giving all the glory to God. 

For those keeping score allow me to also state, "Jesus is my Lord and Savior".

"The Israelites were a religious people. Pilgrimages to Bethel, Gilgal, and Beer-sheba, the sacred precincts of Israel, were commonplace (Amos 4:4; 5:5). Freewill and thanksgiving offerings and tithes were performed regularly (4:4), and there were many religious assemblies and festivals (5:21–23). By all criteria, then, the Israelites assumed that they were performing the cultic and ritual requirements necessary to appease Yahweh. 

Furthermore, they considered their wealth and security as evidence that Yahweh was pleased. They assumed that their steadfast devotion to cultic ritual exempted them from the requirements of righteousness and social justice and from the consequences of wrongdoing. Through sacrifice they could guarantee divine favor and their own survival. The peace and prosperity the nation enjoyed must have, to many Israelites, validated their lives, values, and assumptions as the chosen people of God. 

Yet the people had turned the official view around and were reasoning in reverse: their prosperity proved that they were righteous. The distinction, while a fine one, is nevertheless important: the obligation of the covenant was to pursue righteousness and justice; prosperity would follow as a by-product of God’s pleasure. The pursuit of wealth rather than righteousness was an unacceptable short cut, and wholly abhorrent to Yahweh, according to the prophet. 

‘Amos’ severe judgment is a repudiation, not of the cult [worship system] itself, but of the cult as it was practiced in the eighth century B.C.E. …One’s conduct in the marketplace must always conform to one’s attitude in the holy place’ (King 1988: 89). 

And Israel’s did not. Amos decried the social injustice, the oppression of the poor, and the lack of any moral or ethical values on the part of the rich and powerful. According to Amos, the spokesman of Yahweh, Israel was a violent, oppressive, and exploitative society. The poor had to sell themselves into slavery to pay off trivial debts (2:6; 8:6). The rich falsified weights and measures (8:5) and traded dishonestly (8:6). Even the courts, the last bastion of hope for the poor, were corrupt. Judges were bribed to cheat the poor out of what little they had (2:7; 5:10, 12). In fact, Israel was no longer capable of acting with justice (3:10; cf. 5:7, 24; 6:12). Truth and honesty were now hated (5:10).” 

Source: Bruce E. Willoughby, Amos, the book of, The Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 1, pgs. 203-212 (for entire article)

Havis writes: "…tithing is a part of my covenant relationship with God. Covenants are made and confirmed with tokens. Jesus brings his blood to the covenant and I (being of the seed of Abraham) bring the 10th part of my blessing to Jesus as Abraham brought his 10th part to Melchizedek. I say it, over and over, again and again, I do not tithe because someone has constrained me and told me that I must tithe. I tithe because I want to. I love tithing. I have faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me."  (June 8, 2007)

To say that tithing is a part of your covenant relationship with God since you are a son of Abraham by faith in Jesus Christ is, at first glance, an admirable admission. After all, should not all believers follow in the footsteps of Abraham, the father of the faith? It is also admirable when you say that you have "faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me." 

Havis: I would like to submit to you a few thoughts:   

(1) You say that in your covenant relationship with God, “Jesus brings his blood” and “I bring the tithe.” This gives the impression that your covenant relationship with God is not based solely on grace through faith in the blood of Christ, but on a mixture of Christ’s blood and your tithe. I know you say that you tithe voluntarily, which implies that it is not a covenant condition, but it still sounds dangerous to me. 

(2) You say that you tithe since you are a part of “the seed of Abraham.” It is true that Paul calls all believers the sons and daughters of Abraham by their faith in Jesus Christ. However, not one NT writer ever connects being the seed of Abraham with tithing. As RP has asked you: do you also consider circumcision as part of your covenant relationship with God since it was the sign of God’s covenant with him? 

(3) When you tell us that you have "faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me,” I think it’s good that you’re sharing, but I feel you need to consider not becoming like the Pharisee who went to the temple and was so proud of his tithing record (Luke 18:12). Jesus says that our giving should be in secret (Matthew 6:1-4).   

(4) In another post, you raise the question of the everlasting covenant and its relationship to the Abrahamic and New Covenants. In my view, all previous covenants, along with all of their “tokens,” have been fulfilled and abolished in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant in his blood. I think that the Book of Hebrews makes this very clear. To imply that tithing was a part of the everlasting covenant before Genesis 14:20 has no scriptural support.

According to this Time article, ATM's are expected to become even more prevalent in churches. The IRS is requiring greater documentation on charitable contributions, and since ATM's leave an electronic record that fulfill this new requirement, more churches are expected to install them in their buildings.

Beginning with gifts given in 2007, the IRS will demand documentation for charitable contributions under $250. Once, all one needed was a diary entry to vouch for such donations. Specially designed ATMs at church will help document such spur-of-the-moment cash gifts, as well as planned giving. Also as a result of the new IRS rule, credit card donations and tithing are likely to increase too because such electronic fund transfers leave a paper trail.

How long before they end up in City Bible? A year. 6 months?

So…to sum up everything I've heard from Havis regarding our need to tithe it would be this (Havis or anyone, correct me if I am misinterpreting things):

1. Abram (soon to be Abraham) gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek (Gen 14:18)

2. Then some time later God makes a Covenant with Abraham and his seed(Gen 17 & Gen 18:19)

3. Then we find out in that Jesus is like Melchizedek (Hebrews 7)

Therefore since Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and since Jesus is Like Melchizedek and since we are the Seed of Abraham we are required to Tithe.

Now, if you don't think about any of this it actually sounds really good. Plus when you throw in a little bit of guilt ("Most people who argue with the Tithe are Greedy") and then a bit of manipulation ("95% of all churches teach the Tithe this way") it can really be hard to stand up to.

The problem is, when you decide to look closer, there are so many gaps that have to be filled in to make this all work. For instance:

Abram gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek

• 1) Abram…he wasn't even named Abraham yet
• 2) Gave a tenth…No where does it say it was commanded
• 3) Of the spoils of war…not of his crops or his possessions, but of spoils
• 4) Abram gave the other 90% to Sodom (who has his city burned for being so sinful a short time later)

Then God makes a Covenant with Abram and his seed

• 1) This Covenant did not happen directly after Abram gave to Melchi.
• 2) This Covenant was all about Circumcision
• 3) No where does it mention Tithing during the Covenant
• 4) In between the time of Abram giving to Melchi. (Gen 14:18) and God making the covenant (Gen 17) we have Gen 15:9:

So the LORD said to him, "Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon."

So…it appears to me that it is quite a stretch to take Abram giving something Melchi and attach it to a covenant that has nothing to do with tithe 3 chapter later all the while ignoring all the instruction from the Lord in between. Furthermore this does nothing to discuss the fact that we have to take "giving to Melchi" and turn that into "giving to the church"…we have to take giving spoils of war and turn it into giving our income…all the while also ignoring all the other scriptures about the law of tithing in the Bible that the church doesn't want you to follow (Lev 27:31, Dut 14:28, Numbers 18:26-32, etc.)

Giving 10% is great. I fully support people giving 10% to the church, just so long as it is "not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

I think we've beat this thread to death, but what the heck: Havis can you show me how to connect Melchi to the Covenant thus requiring us to tithe?

One last thing before I go, Havis you mentioned that "Both tithing and circumcision do not have their roots in the law but in the everlasting covenant." What then do you say to 1 Corinthians 7:19?

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Based solely on what you have said and this scripture I would have to come to the conclusion that Tithing is nothing and Not Tithing is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

I expect Havis to ignore me, that's usually what happens when you back someone into the corner.